05/08/2014 Scotland 2014

Head to head. Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling in the first big

debate. So, have they changed any minds tonight?

For both men, this was one of the most important nights of their

political lives. Their chance to put the arguments for and against an

independent Scotland direct to the voters. It was passionate and he

did, at times more than a little tetchy. So, who got their message

across and what did we learn? We will be bringing you the analysis

and insight. I'll be at the venue for the latest from spin Alley and

we'll be hearing from three young voters. I'm in North Queensferry

with a group of undecided voters gauging their reaction. For

political reaction we will be talking to Labour's Margaret: And

Margaret Neil from the SNP. And we will be casting our eye over social

media. And we have three wise men, Ryan Taylor, John Curtice and Allan

Little. So, the phoney war is over, the

first shots have been fired in the referendum campaign proper. We'd

been debating independence FIFA years, but tonight the campaign

really got going as the two biggest piece is in the referendum jungle

went head-to-head in a televised debate for the first time. The

contest was shown on STV, but stay with us for the finest post-match

analysis. Will tonight go down in history as a classic of its kind?

Year is Glen Campbell with the highlights. Can I move beyond

political point scoring? I am not going to exploit my opponent's youth

and inexperience. Who is going to keep one of these two under

control? Grab them by the short and curlews? That is the issue. We are

used to seeing wannabe First Ministers, prime ministers and

presidents clash on TV in election campaigns. But tonight is different.

Neither Alex Hammond or Alistair Darling are standing for office,

they are selling competing visions of Scotland's future. The Yes

Campaign say independence is about better decision-making. No one will

do a better job of running Scotland than the people that live and work

in Scotland. The No Campaign say that Scottish elections don't

necessarily deliver better outcomes. When it comes to getting governments

you didn't vote for, I didn't vote for him, I'm stuck with him, I

accept that happens in a democracy. Some say that voting no will not

mean no change, but more power will be devolved. More tax power. Two

things are happening. Power is already coming when you have power

for income tax. And they will have additional power to vary the rate of

income tax. Alex Hammond argues only independence guarantees the powers

that he thinks Hollywood needs. In cross-examination, Alistair Darling

repeatedly asked the First Minister for his plan B if the rest of the UK

were to reject a currency union. I want you to contemplate for just one

minute the fact that you might be wrong. What is plan B? We will take

the pound because it longs to Scotland as much as it belongs to

England. It is our pound as well as yours. Mr Darling claimed that

Scotland could be left without the back-up of the Bank of England as

lender of last resort. You cannot seriously be saying this. Remember,

the financial markets are listening to what you have his say. You can't

survive using somebody else's currency. I am talking about the

financial markets, and that is not your strongest suit given what

happened to the financial market when you were Chancellor of the

Exchequer. Alex Salmond quizzed his opponent and accused the Better

Together campaign of spreading scare stories. The No Campaign have said

independence will mean that we have to drive on the right-hand side of

the road. Is that true? For goodness sake, we said it as a joke. Do you

know what a joke is? IC -- IC! Alex Salmond said Better Together

misrepresented the head of the European Commission by claiming he

said that an independent Scotland could be frozen out of the EU. Will

you withdraw that claim from the website? Not an issue of driving on

the wrong side of the road? On a central issue of the campaign? He

didn't do that, but conceded that Scotland could eventually gain EU

membership. I've always said they could get back in, I have been

speaking about how long it would take. Alex Salmond tried repeatedly

to get Alistair Darling to conceive, as he claimed the Prime Minister had

already done, that Scotland could make a success of independence. Do

you agree with David Cameron or not? I feel like Michael Howard or Jeremy

Kyle. These are combat it is exchanges without a killer blow. Is

the first time they had clashed. In the final six weeks of campaigning,

it probably won't be the last. Joining us now is a trio of top

talent, our own political editor Brian Taylor, psephologist

extraordinaire Brian Curtis and our special correspondent Allan Little.

Just a little simplistic, to ask you one, was there a game changer in

there tonight? I don't think so, I think it was the greatest hits from

the last few years. I don't blame the programme, and I don't blame

either competent for that. We have the ground set out by both sides.

What they are doing is evangelising their positions. In terms of success

from each side, I think Alistair Darling pursued the questions with

vigour and enthusiasm, and endeavour. I think Alex Salmond on a

couple of occasions successfully evangelised the point about the

argument of people knowing best for Scotland being the people that live

here. In terms of areas where one or the other slipped up, I think that

Alistair Darling seemed to feel that the questions about the number of

panderers, the pandas being returned and driving on the right side of the

road, that it was a bit of frippery. I think Alex Salmond seized upon,

during the debate, Alistair Darling stumbling a little bit over the

question of more powers, precisely which powers would be devolved in

the event of a no vote. Both of them stumbled a bit of questions they

were not eager to answer. Any big problems for either of them? What

we've learned tonight is partly how bitterly the country is divided. You

could see them struggling to maintain civility. The phoney war is

over. There was a jolt of electricity that went through the

campaign tonight. If anybody had asked most of us, most political

observers who they expected to win, they would have said, clearly, Alex

Salmond is the stronger debater. Even Alistair Darling's most fervent

supporters would have said it is not really his great strength. It might

not be fair, pro-independence supporters might not like it, but

the burden of proof is still on the people who want to make a radical

change. I think we saw an indication that Better Together have decided,

never mind appearing negative or worrying that they might be

counter-productive, never mind worrying it might backfire, they are

going to keep plucking up that thread of the currency because they

believe it will get them over the line. The burden of expectation was

on Alex Hammond's shoulders. If you go into it with everybody expecting

you to win, you need to do better than expectation. Alistair Darling

is the winner in a snap poll for the Guardian. I think there will be

little change in intentions. If every committed voter said their

side had won, that is what we would have anticipated. Both sides

probably thought their own personal one. Because the yes side are behind

in the opinion polls, Alex Salmond needed to be seen to be winning by

some no supporters. needed to be seen to be winning by

some no I don't think this will succeed in moving many voters. For

the most part, most of them decided to focus on topics that concerned

their existing supporters, rather than the topic that we know is

central to most voters in general in Scotland, whether or not

independence would be good or bad for Scotland's economy. There was

very little discussion about how we ensure that a post oil Scotland has

its economy managed in such a way that public finances are

sustainable. That is the central issue for most voters. We had the No

Campaign going on endlessly about the currency, on the Yes Campaign

side, Mr Alex Salmond talking about food banks and not getting the

government that we elected. We know these arguments that appeal to their

own supporters, but we also know they don't have much traction beyond

that. It was surprisingly they both decided to fight over territory that

seemed least likely to win over the people they were supposed to win

over, the undecided voter. There is a substantial chunk of undecided

voters. If the phoney war is over, will they have learned anything

tonight to help them make a decision? I don't think they will

have. The overall political impression is quite important. The

Yes Campaign have always believed that undecideds, when confronted

with the ardent in full, tend to go in favour of independence. I don't

think that will be the result. The way that Alistair Darling kept

plucking at that thread of the currency, plucking at that thread of

the uncertainty over the European Union, despite their fears earlier

in the year, I think that George Osborne coming to Edinburgh and

saying, no, you can't have the pound, despite fears it was

backfiring, it is clear they decided to go for that. They have decided it

is not backfiring. The polls are supporting that. The Yes Campaign

say that people are going from no two undecided, and from undecided,

to yes. That was their own private polling earlier in the year. I think

they will struggle now to sustain that argument. From a nonpartisan

point of view, I think the Nationalists will have to take a

hard look at the way they are presenting the argument now and

consider the way that the Better Together campaign have exposed what

is still a very important weakness. What is in Yes Scotland have taken

away from this? They will say that it is just Idle project fear from

Alistair Darling, but if it is working... Alistair Darling has once

said he thought it was best to say no. So he was, in a sense, getting

back his negativity. They would say it was a positive campaign, in that

they were positively against independence. A couple of things, a

theatrical point, on three occasions, Alex Salmond stepped out

from the rostrum and went out to the front of the stage, directly

addressing the audience, and looking towards the audience at home. In

other words, slightly sidelining Alistair Darling, geographically and

intellectually. Trying to appeal directly. That was perhaps when he

was at his most effective, the voice quieted, the demeanour lessened from

the aggression that you always get in the exchanges. Alex Salmond was

perhaps pitching directly to people, again, all this simple formula that

the people of Scotland are best placed to govern themselves.

Alistair Darling's report, well, I didn't vote for him, it was

effective theatre. But when you think about it, actually, it didn't

add up to meaning very much. I can see the effective theatre. One

audience member accused him of being snide and not very nice. It was

tetchy on both sides but not especially aggressive. There were

suggestions from both sides that perhaps the other had questions to

answer. We did not learn very much. But on the question of the

currency, Alistair Darling pursued that effectively. But Alex Salmond

has stuck to this mantra now for perhaps more than a year to say that

there is not a Plan B because Plan A will be in the interest of both

Scotland and the remainder of the UK. If you did buy that argument

then you would buy it again tonight. And we can cross now to outside

the debate at the Conservatoire Our correspondent James Cook has

been in the Spin Room, where the politicians and their staff try

to persuade the hacks that It is interesting that the No

campaign, the Better Together campaign, take the view that this

was a decisive three. That is a quote from one of their spin

doctors. The Yes campaign have not gone that

far. Everyone likes to save their side did well but it is interesting

to note that they have not taken that approach. I spoke to one senior

figure in the Yes campaign is said to me he thought it had been a good

opportunity for them to get their arguments across. I suggested that

many people watching regarded Alistair Darling as being the winner

of this debate. And he said we just think we have done well because we

have got the arguments out there to the public. So I think that tells

you something. How has it gone

down with the viewers? Our Correspondent Lorna Gordon is

in North Queensferry in Fife. There are figureheads for both sides

in the debate speaking to the audience and also to the wider

electorate. The 4 million or so voters. And in particular they were

targeting the undecided voters who could hold sway in this referendum.

We gathered a group of them together in North Queensferry to see what

they're made of it. There were few high points, it was

point-scoring on both sides but we did not get to the nitty gritty of

the economic. You said you wanted answers about the economy. Did you

get them? No, and not about pensions either. It went into tuition fees a

little bit. But the older generation want to know about pensions. At some

point there was more discussion going on here, it seemed more

animated here than on the screen. I think we got more answers from each

other than from the party leaders. People want to know how it will

affect their lives in an independent Scotland. What would change. Will

there be more money for home care and social services, for education.

How will the money from the top the dished out to those at the bottom.

Did you think that they were talking to you or just to which other? I

felt it was the same old stuff that we have heard in the past. You get

those leaflets through the door from both sides and it was just a

reiteration of what we have already heard. I wanted to know how it would

affect me, what would change and help we pay for it. How it would

affect us tax wise. So many questions and I do not think we got

the answers which was disappointing. But it has given me a lot to think

about. And to maybe make my mind up either way.

You came in undecided, what about now? Still undecided. It has not

helped me make a decision one way or another. Not enough substance in it

to have formed an actual opinion to go into the ballot box. Who came off

better in terms of the debate? Alex Salmond came across his usual self.

He had a lot of confidence and bravado. I thought Alistair Darling

came across very well. I thought he would struggle tonight but he

came across very well. I thought he across was a lot more passion than

we have Well, that was what

the public made of it. For Labour,

the MP Margaret Curran who's Shadow And for the Scottish Government,

the Cabinet Minister for Health So,

I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here and assuming Alex Neil, that

you think the First Minister won? I think he did. He was able to

expose the thrash about additional powers if you vote no.

expose the thrash about additional that is not going to happen.

expose the thrash about additional at the did not happen tonight. The

arguments from both of you men did not connect for our viewers. They

said they were not more certain than before. Well the arguments about how

it will affect people, there were some efforts to get to that. Alex

Salmond was asked how he would tackle poverty in Scotland. And he

refused to answer. He will not acknowledged there are any problems

or challenges from independence. I think that just does not work.

People know that there must be some downside to it. And he will not

acknowledge any. He just thinks everything will be great in an

independent Scotland but I think voters are too sophisticated. He

spelt out how independence would be better for pensioners both today and

tomorrow. One of the commitments we made is that the minimum wage would

go up with inflation and that will make a huge difference to taking

people in work out of poverty. This is just one debate of a whole series

of debate and campaigning. And inevitably in these debates they

tend to concentrate as you can only do, and a few subjects. It was an

hour and a half and they covered a wide range of topics. They did not

feel as if they were really connecting with voters, either of

them, and explaining what the consequences of their own lives

would be. I would disagree. I think tension is a big issue for people.

For future pensioners as well. And that was an area where Alex Salmond

spelt out in a lot of detail exactly what would happen in an independent

Scotland. Because the pensioners are a top priority for us. Well the

error is to assert again and again that things will be better in an

independent Scotland. How and in what way? We do have challenges

about the oil running out. And organisations saying we would start

of with a deficit. How do we answer that? Just saying again and again we

wanted to be better, that does not work. Alistair Darling was asked how

things would be better after a no vote and what powers would be

devolved and he really stumbled on that. He did not carefully explain

what further demolition there would be. Someone like me who has been

involved in that I can give categoric assurances that

legislation will be passed to make sure there are extra powers for the

Scottish Parliament. They will range over a number of areas from housing

benefit to employment law to taxes. I think that has resonance with

voters. And that is what the Scottish people want and what they

will get. There was a Queen 's speech last month so why did they

not put it in that? They just had legislation on it. They did not put

it in the Queen's Speech because we know the day after a no vote if

there is one, they will forget all about it and Scotland will continue

to be treated with contempt by Westminster. Alex Salmond was asked

repeatedly about what Plan B was on the currency unit. He did not answer

that. Will we get an answer? We have gone into this campaign arguing what

is best for Scotland. What we are saying is this is right for Scotland

and in terms of the currency it is absolutely right for England. Look

at the implications if there is no currency union for the rest of the

UK economy. It would be a disaster. UK has not had a trade surplus the

past 30 years. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister the last time that

happened. If you take out Scotland's massive surplus on trade

with the rest of the world... Unemployment and all the rest will

go through the roof. It is not enough. You cannot keep talking over

the fact, you cannot avoid the fact that voters in Scotland want you to

tell us what is your Plan B. Alex Salmond said it tonight, what are

those plans? We would love to know the answer. Tell us now. One is a

separate currency, which would not be in the best interests of

Scotland. Another would be stilled to use the pound but not have a

currency union. The best option by far for Scotland and England is the

one that we have spelt out, a currency union. The fact of life is

a Cabinet minister has given the game away and admitted that they

would agree to it the day after a yes vote. It has been a disaster for

Scotland, Alistair Darling almost brought Britain to the brink of

bankruptcy when he was Chancellor. We have six more weeks to explore

all of this. And we can go now to James Cook. He is now with

first-time voters. Let's go straight to our panel.

Jamie, first of all, an undecided voter, what did you make of it? I

found it very confusing at times, but very valid points from both

sides. As Max has said in the past, it probably pushed undecided voters

further undecided. And it has pushed you in that way, not help you make

up your mind? Definitely not. You are a no voter yourself, but you

think it's not winning people over either way? In terms of the debate

itself, Alistair Darling seemed to come out on top. But that doesn't

really matter in this case, what matters is the undecided, the people

that they need to convince, that is what matters, what they think.

Neither of them talked about their vision for Scotland, and I think it

will confuse a lot of the undecided. You are a yes supporter, but a lot

of people seem to think you didn't see your man do too well? I think he

could have stood his ground more. His points were valid, you just

needed to justify them more fully to win people over to his side.

Briefly, could you bear another one of those? I would like to, but with

more structure. It would be good to have another one to confirm those

points of view. What about you? I would definitely want to see another

one, but a lot more structured, perhaps a mute button on some of the

microphones! What about you? You probably really want another one to

make up your mind? Definitely, another debate would help the

undecided voters. Thank you for your views. I spoke to Alistair Darling

as he left, he was saying that he thoroughly enjoyed it. I said, are

you the winner? You said, that is for the viewers to decide. I spoke

to Alex Salmond, he was characteristically blunt in his

response. He said, look at this poll in the Guardian, it is putting us in

a better position than when I went in. He was characteristically

claiming victory. But I think the Alistair Darling side is happier. It

was heated, and sometimes quite nasty, not the debate, but the cyber

battle that was going on. Suzanne Allan has been sitting

across the social media scrum. It was a hotly anticipated event, lots

of tweets about the atmosphere. Here is a flavour of the chatter. This is

summed up a lot of the feeling. No surprise that both campaigns

thought their respective leaders were the top dog.

Put a sizing the Better Together leader... -- criticising.

Surely not! For some final analysis, we have got two guests who are

authors, commentators and former political advisers, Alex Bell until

last year headed up Alex Salmond's policy unit, David Torrance was a

Paul -- Parliamentary aide at the House of Commons. Alex, as he was

going into this, what will Alex Salmond have had ringing in his head

that he had to do tonight? Probably something different to what he

delivered. He had to appeal to the undecided voters. I think what we

got was a rehearsal of the campaign to date. I think he might look back

in the morning and think you slightly wasted some prime airtime.

He was rehashing some of the things which have gone wrong in Project

Fear. No doubt that is interesting to people in the media. But that is

prime time, when I think he should have been undermining the case for

the UK, trying to put Alistair Darling on a hot spot by saying,

look, you have been in charge of the UK, you still can't deliver social

justice, what is your problem with Scotland delivering social justice

by itself? I'm not convinced anybody will have changed their mind. I

think that is what they have to do. Will Alistair Darling be kicking

himself that he didn't put forward a better case for further devolution

after a no vote? I think so. It's quite obvious from where I am

sitting that, initially at least, Alistair Darling was painfully

nervous and it really impacted on the rest of his performance, which

was not strong, initially. He only came to live under

cross-examination, when he got stuck in on the European Union and

recovered confidence. He didn't miss a trick. Apart from a cursory

reference to more powers, which he did not sound at all enthusiastic

about, there was nothing positive, nothing about the opportunities of

Scotland staying in the UK. I suspect he'll put that right in the

next debate, as Alex Salmond will put right his deficiencies earlier

this evening. Did Alex Salmond come across as a likeable man? That is

one of the things he was trying to work on. Did he come across as a

statesman who can persuade undecided voters he can lead them into a new

country? We certainly didn't see the shouting Alex Salmond that we see at

First Minister's questions. He came across really well. At times he had

this neat trick of stepping away from the podium, becoming more

intimate and engaging directly with the audience, which I thought worked

well. Alex -- Alistair Darling seemed quite stiff. We got the

fluffy and cuddly Alex Salmond. We know why, the other persona does not

work with female voters and undecided voters. If Alistair

Darling was a little dry, boring might be unfair, is that what he was

there to do? Some people said his job was to or people for Britain.

He's not going to get a job as a children's entertainer. But he did

enough. I think the No Campaign will be thinking, fine, we were not

cross-examined on Alistair Darling's own failures in office, on

the failure to deliver social justice, on the fact that the UK

can't afford pensions or the NHS. In some cases, Alistair Darling must be

going home thinking, well, I'd ducked a punch. What Alex Salmond

needs to do is reconnect with his passion, the fundamental reason why

all this has been worth it. Why have we spent 30 years getting to this

point? Tell us again. It Alex Salmond that needs a game changer.

If we look at the polls, there was another poll released just before

the debate, roughly in the same place they have been for quite some

time, 42% yes, 58% no, when you take out the undecided voters. You'll

have to do more than he did tonight? Edit of caution on that, Yes

Campaign are convinced they are doing really well in inner cities.

They are convinced they are winning the ardent underground. They may not

feel there needs to be this game changer. -- winning on the ground.

From January to May, everybody said they needed a game changer, and on

the night of the election they revealed us, they won. Did we get a

preview of the next six weeks? Is this what we are going to be talking

about until September? Yes, the debate this evening was going over

the ground of the campaign so far. A greatest hits, highlights of the

referendum campaign from the past two years. It's quite difficult to

come up with new arguments for or against the union, or dazzling new

lines. That is why there were not any this evening. More of the same

over the next six weeks. I suspect an alteration and then more of the

same in the next debate. If it is more of the same, will undecided

voters get any help making up their mind and will people be motivated to

vote? It has been two years of listening to more of the same. I

fear for the undecided, I don't think there will be in a better

place after this evening or the next few weeks. What would you advise

them to do if they wanted to make up their mind? Bear in mind you are not

voting for these two men, you are voting for the future of your

society. You have to weigh up if it is best managed in the current state

what you think you and your compatriots can do a better job.

There will be no clear yes no, there is no black and white in life. You

have to take your hunch and I hope that is what they do. That is all

from us tonight, thank you for watching. We will be back at the

same time tomorrow night, so I hope you join me then.