14/08/2014 Scotland 2014

Moving Trident out of Scotland - it can be done.

But it could take more than a decade.

How long would it take to get rid of nuclear weapons

A new report says it is perfectly possible to move the Trident

But the process could take as long as 12 years.

And how will socialists vote in September?

I'll be talking to two left wing stalwarts,

Tommy Sheridan and Owen Jones about their very different views

How will socialists vote in September?

To create a new, left leaning country or to maintain

solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK?

And to what extent did dreams of an island paradise lead to the act of

It would be possible for the UK to keep its nuclear weapons

by moving them out of Scotland in the event of independence.

A report published today by the respected think tank, The

Royal United Services Institute, says relocating Trident would take

considerably longer than the four year target set by the SNP.

But it also says the process would probably cost far

less than the tens of billions of pounds previously predicted.

Aileen Clarke has been studying the report.

The Faslane naval base. It is here that the Trident submarines are. But

for how much longer? Scottish Government says that in the event of

a Yes vote they want the nuclear deterrent out of Scotland within six

years. This report says it would take more than a decade. The report

also says it would cost less than has been previously thought. It says

?3 billion should be the cost of moving the submarines to Devonport

and building a secure and safe place to store the missiles.

However the Scottish Government still see a safe and speedy removal

is a priority. The timeline we have set out as the first term of an

independent Scottish Parliament. It has got to be done safely and we

have always stressed that, but speed is also of the essence. The detail

will be a matter of negotiation. On the other side of the debate, the

report has been welcomed as illuminating. We have experts

contradicting what is the First Minister says. The experts are

telling us what the facts are. In addition to that, this suggestion

that that is a moral case for removing

a non-nuclear future would be like. A lot of people would prefer that to

be here. Does that include yourself? Yes. Politicians promise a lot.

Knowing what is beer just now, we deal with it well.

Knowing what is beer just now, we Devonport. That is already a base

for nuclear powered submarines. But you would need to do significant

work. You would have to move Royal Navy surface ships out of fear. We

estimate that between five and seven years make do it for that particular

base. The most difficult task would be replacing the weapons handling

facility where you are taking weapons on and off submarines. You

would have two essentially build a greenfield site somewhere in England

and Wales. The site which was identified as possible for that

purpose in the 1960s was near Falmouth. That is still relatively

undeveloped. It might do the trick. If anybody suggests that getting rid

of Trident from Scotland means that the UK would be left without a

nuclear deterrent, that is not true? It depends on the time scale.

If the Scottish Government insisted on its four-year timescale then I

don't believe it is possible to construct alternative facilities in

England and Wales. But if longer was aligned, if for example new bases

were required at the time that the current submarines are due to be

replaced, then that timescale, 12 years, would make it possible.

Nothing is asserted without doing more detailed work. The Scottish

Government says that getting rid of Trident by Twenty20 is still a

perfectly reasonable timescale. You think it is reasonable to get rid of

Trident by that time, but not find a replacement base? It depends what

the criteria is. In terms of securing a safe base in the rest of

the UK from which the UK could continue to operate Trident that

wish to do so, for years is not enough time. We have been talking

about trying to find a new home for Trident nuclear submarines. Is that

the only option for a UK nuclear deterrent? There are other possible

nuclear delivery systems. You could have warheads based on aircraft. You

could have ground-based ballistic missiles. But that is not an

alternative which is as satisfactory for the UK. Many of the alternatives

cost even more money. In the recent review by the Government the option

favoured by the Liberal Democrats cruise missiles, were also based on

submarines. That would not help in this scenario. There is not a viable

option. But you could simply have a freefall bomb based on earlier

draft. That would be vulnerable to attack and I do not think it'd be a

credible deterrent. There are plenty of voices who claim

that independence could lead to a rebirth of the left in Scottish

politics, while others think nationalism is a distraction

from the issues that really matter. We've got two

of the most prominent voices on the radical left in the studio tonight -

Tommy Sheridan and Owen Jones. Before we talk about

whether the referendum will define the future of the left in Scotland,

let's take a quick look Scotland has always had a strong

tradition of left-wing politics. The earliest roots of universal health

care can be traced back to the Highlands before the division of the

NHS. In the 1970s workers in the Clyde shipyards resisted calls. --

resisted calls. There will be no vandalism. There will be no

drinking. The Thatcher years of the 1980s

galvanised the left in Scotland. Never more so than during the poll

tax protest where Tommy Sheridan first made his name. 520,000

non-payers of the poll tax in Strathclyde alone. There has always

been disagreement. People are deeply sceptical about Alex Salmond and the

politics he represents. With the referendum looming, has the question

of the constitutional future split the Socialist voice? The Yes

campaign is not asking you to leave your party. It offers you the chance

to get your party back. But the (them has raised questions over the

future of those on the left, whether inside or outside the UK.

With me now are the former MSP, Tommy Sheridan, now co-convenor

of Solidarity and Owen Jones, whose new book, The Establishment,

Tommy Sheridan, you are campaigning for a Yes vote. If Scotland became

independent it would mean that the UK would be less likely to be able

to elect a left-leaning Government. There have only been two

left-leaning governments since 1945 that have relied on Scottish votes.

This is about a democratic question. It is about Scotland's's right to

exist as a small nation, and a left of centre nation that would invest

in people, invest in hospitals, schools, doctors and nurses. Not on

nuclear weapons that are immoral. It would keep the health service

public. Get rid of nuclear weapons. Introduce a living wage. All of the

things that the West have fought for four years and it is within our

grasp in Scotland. # that the left. That this by myself and thousands of

others are doing public meetings to promote hope over fear. This year

campaign wants us to stick with the UK, with food banks, with any

quality. I see let us go for something new and brighter. That is

what an independent Scotland offers. That size like a future that you

would enjoy. It is not for me, based in London, to lecture tours in

Scotland how to vote. I am here to express solidarity with all those

fighting for a society run in the interests of working people, not the

tax dodgers, not the financiers, not the poverty paying bosses. Myself

and Tommy Sheridan have a shared memory which will surprise viewers.

In 1990I looked at Falkirk. Tens of thousands of Scots took to the

streets in a show of defiance and solidarity. On the same day they

marched in London. It ended in a different fashion. But that is part

of a tradition. We hear of the tradition of aristocracy. There is

another condition of Scottish, English and Welsh workers united

together. In that case they did not just get rid of the poll tax, the

boot of Margaret Thatcher out of number ten. There is this tradition,

the chartists, the suffragettes, the trade Unionists, the struggle of Its

It would be a beacon to the rest of the UK not? It would encourage

change in England, Wales and Northern Ireland? is Scotland's vote

for independence I will cheer it on. But it is one hell of a fight.

The sort of Scotland at Tommy he is fighting for is not the Scotland and

visage by Brian Souter who swiftly transferred the money he is paying

for the independence movement to a the Stagecoach boss? absolutely.

Summary was the rights of me as a gay man stopped, but somebody. The

skull he supports. But for me, the point you made about not having a

Tory Government, because I do not believe in electoral colonialism,

let's import the Scots to stop the English vote in the wrong way. The

Tories are in decline. They could not win the last election when

Gordon Brown was slightly less popular than cholera. 36% of the

vote they got. Every time they have won an election since 1955 it has

been a lower share than the time before. The Scottish, Welsh and

English left together can finish this lot off and build a united

movement, building on the traditions of our ancestors on whose shoulders

we stand united in the traditions. We can do that and we will. Is

Scotland is a separate country, you won't be able to show in that

fight? That's nonsense, Sarah. If he was living in school and I'm

confident he will be with me. He will be campaigning with me because

it is right, it is the right thing to do. Not just on a democratic

point of view, but from the left of centre point of view. Solidarity is

not about borders. I support Cuba, I support Venezuela, we support

Palestine. An independent Scotland I am confident will be one of the

first countries in the world to expel the Israeli ambassador and

start I cutting and sanctioning Israel. Independent Scotland will be

a very progressive, very, very supportive country. The point that

we have to take up and being aware agree with most things, I'm very

fond of him, but what I would say is this: After 13 years of Labour in

power, we had a more divided country, we have more workers laid

low, we had more of the welfare, people not paying their taxes.

People are given up on that project. They are now looking for a

democratic, independent Scotland. It is not suitable to aggravation they

are looking for, it is the vision of the John Maclean's they are looking

for. Won be most understand why somebody in toy's position supports

independence? absolutely. A lot of my political bedfellows have so much

support and solidarity are campaigning for years. The point I'm

making is that sense of a shocker to those of a shocker to those the idea

that once independence happens we will be free of the shackles of

neoliberalism. The SNP are a dominant force and they want to

enter into a race to the bottom with England who can slash taxes on

business most. Can the Scotland Tommy support be built if

independence happens? It's possible, but it will be one hell of a fight.

And if we look at the polls, English Scots and Welsh are like supports

public ownership, progressive taxation, re-nationalise utilities.

Those are the mainstream of the people and together we can build on

the struggles of our ancestors because we won before and we can win

again. Won Owen Jones, Tommy Sheridan, thank you.

As the prospect of dissolving the union with England stands before us,

Jonathan has been looking at how we came together in the first place.

Yes - how much did Scotland's failed venture into colonialism

The Darien project was hatched in the late 17th Century.

A plan to establish a Scottish trading centre in Central America,

it turned out to be a complete disaster in economic

But did it also contribute to the decision to unite Scotland

Leith docks. Like all of Scotland it's changed drastically in the past

three centuries. It was in 1698 that the first ships set sail from it to

establish a Scottish colony in modern-day Panama on the Gulf of

Darien. It will be called new Caledonia. Explorers went in search

of a gateway between Atlantic and Pacific. What they found was

hardship and disease. It was an ambitious effort to establish

Scotland as a world trading power. One fascinates historian Douglas

Watts. Darien was announced by the company Scotland to emulated the

success of the East India company who had made huge profits out of

trade in the East Indies. They wanted West amateur colony at

Darien, near the Colombian border. That would allow them to cut the

travel time down to the East Indies and create a profitable trade. It

was funded by the general public, from wealthy nobles to those of

modest means. Huge sums of money were invested in the hope of a

lucrative return. This rather Gothic looking artefacts looks like

something out of Lord of the rings game of phones. But it is the Darien

chest. It is kept the Abbey National Museum of Scotland. This is where

literally a court of Scotland's National capital was put to finance

the ill-fated Darien Scheme. The scheme failed at least 1500 lives

were lost and financial desperation followed. Scots began to apportion

blame. The extended England play a part in the downfall of Darien? the

main reason for the failure was mismanagement by the directors. They

should have anticipated English opposition. There was clearly

opposition from England, first of all in the attempt to keep money in

London, which was initially successful. It was quashed by the

English East India Company. Then buy an attempt at almost on -- start the

colony out of the Caribbean. This angered the Scots and they shed king

with the English. That the start of the colony. the embroidery displays

our country's story from the ice age to the present day. One panel

devotes itself entirely to the Darien Scheme. The next panel, the

union of 1707. At the centre of the union treaty was a huge bailout fund

for the investors in the Darien Scheme who lost every penny. They

did not expect to get any money back, but a few years later, they

were given just all their money back, but interest payments in

addition. So the equivalent, which is the large lump sum is a key

Salina in persuading Scots to vote for the union of the small number of

Scots who had devoted that a vote to ratify the treaty in 1707. Vast

majority of Scots were against it. the Darien Scheme was given it a

game changer that forged the union of 1707. The Uni we decided to

continue with or reject next month. -- the union we will decide whether

to continue with or reject, next month.

Joining us now to look at today's top stories are

Roxanne Soroashian of the Sunday Herald and Andrew Picken, Political

there. There are new voices, it's time to hit reset and no matter what

the outcome of the vote on September 18, we could have quite an exciting

political landscape. We don't have much hard left in Scottish

Parliament at the moment, although Tommy Sheridan and his colleagues

held seats there previously. Our baby over optimistic thinking and

independent Scotland Moby the rebirth of radical left-wing

politics? Would be a chance to get a foothold? I think they have been

energised by the fact they are campaigning for something instead of

against something, ie poll-tax or coalition cuts. I have my doubts in

terms of the appetite for their Scotland because it still has cohort

of small C conservatives. There are a million plus right-leaning

newspapers sold in Scotland every week. The big C conservatives got

500,000 votes are the last election, that is still a big appetite. Look

how many left politicians are in Holyrood. That probably did you

answer. Lets change subject. Let's talk police and guns. The Scottish

police authority are saying they are carrying out a review after officers

were carrying guns while on fairly routine patrols it seems, without

very much public discussion. A feeling, perhaps, that the

authorities have been dragging their heels slightly on this issue. In the

Scotsman today it said the Scottish authority to examine the use of

armed police officers. Have the police authority been dragging their

heels? yes. It is an issue that has been kicking around for a couple of

months and as -- there is a general unease. It is the two police

Scotland watchdogs who are taking this forward and they should have

acted sooner. The reports will not be delivered until December, so in

terms of action that will follow into 2015. It is a long time. How

long -- how likely is this move to ease concerns? Probably the

consultation is long overdue and the Scottish public are understandably

alarmed when they see that police on the beats going about with guns. It

is something that is quite alien to us as a nation. I mean, is the first

thing you notice when you fly abroad. At the airport and there are

cops with big guns and you think, we are not in Scotland anymore. It is

important for the public to have a proper, proper consultation on this.

That this public unease about this. But it has taken a long time for the

politicians to address it. It. Is this because everything has been put

on hold as we discussed the referendum? I think there is an

element of that, yes. Certain things are slipping under the radar. And

they shouldn't be. Let us move on to the fast moving Iraq crisis. The

prime Minister this evening said he is going to step aside. Now please

the Americans no end. And I guess, it is a small step, but a crucial

one in try to stabilise the situation is that how you see? yes.

Both parties have made clear they are not happy with him. So,

hopefully, this will push us to mop -- towards more stability. As we so

the crisis started, the speed with which the fighters went across the

country