20/08/2014 Scotland 2014

You are clearly a BBC viewer and we are delighted you are

Stay tuned to find out what would happen to the Beeb if there is a Yes

The Scottish government have promised that in an independent

Scotland you will still be able to watch all your favourite BBC

programmes and that you wont pay any more for your licence fee.

So, even though it is a little awkward to be

talking about ourselves, tonight we will examine how much difference

a Yes vote would make to the British Broadcasting Corporation.

The Labour MP Jim Murphy is touring 100 Scottish towns campaigning

Saying he doesn't want to have to choose between being Scottish

We'll be debating national identity and its role in referendum with him

And we investigate the unofficial government websites

which could be costing Scots hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Amidst all the talk of currency options and the future oil revenues

today it's Dr Who at the centre of the referendum debate.

Will you still be able to watch his adventures

in an independent Scotland without having to use a Tardis yourself?

Better Together have launched an attack on the Scottish

government's plans for broadcasting in an independent Scotland.

Saying they would break up the BBC and leave audiences paying more

But those campaigning for independence are predicting

high ratings for the new Scottish Broadcasting Service and

Laura Maxwell's been looking at their arguments:

This is direct television. Scots have a long and close relationship

with broadcasting. From the inventor of TV, to the founder of the BBC,

the Scot Lord Reith. The corporation has come a long way, like East

Enders and strictly coming dancing pulling massive TV audiences. Of all

the issues being raised towards next month 's folk, broadcasting is

getting the least attention. It is ironic given almost every house in

the country has a radio, TV and computer. Would broadcasting be

safer within the UK or under an independent Scotland? If there is a

yes vote, what would a Scottish broadcasting service look like? Not

great according to pro union campaigns. Better Together are

warning independence would be devastating for television. What

they are reporting is that if we withdraw, we would have to pay for

the services that we currently get. Scottish bid 300 million into the

BBC in terms of a licensing fee and we get billions of programmes out of

it and I think that is a better deal. Not so, according to the First

Minister. With the new Scottish broadcasting system sharing

resources with the BBC it would produce more production and Scott

would get to value. Only a fraction of the money is spent in Scotland in

the present moment so we have the licence fee supporting Scottish

broadcasting which creates more jobs and more programmes for the people

of Scotland to watch and enjoy. But what about the audience? All voters

as politicians say? Scotland has been a big part in the BBC and I

would not like to lose that. On a local scale, I would have far more

trust. In local journalists than journalists in England. Whether it

would impact my life I am not sure. Like I said, a lot of people have

sky and Sky News, so. I'm the Doctor, I've lived for over 2000

years. One thing for certain, broadcasting, just like the Doctor

is constantly reinventing itself. Just how long the current version

will stay with us will not be clear until after the referendum.

Joining me now is Labour's Shadow Secretary of State

And from Yes Scotland, Blair Jenkins.

Let me ask you Blair, the former director-general of the BBC said

your plans for the Scottish podcasting service and the BBC are

essentially swapping programmes was make-believe? There is a long record

of him not understanding Scotland so that should come as no surprise.

What we can do in an independent Scotland is what viewers want. This

is access to BBC programmes, there is no scenario in which we won't

have that. Also to create a great many more Scottish programmes which

we know the Scottish audience one. They'll be more programmes, more

jobs and a better service. Will we have definite access to the BBC? I

do think you can get the guarantee at all. It is not a credible

argument and has been backed up by independent experts. It is not

credible that will get the same range and quality of services

without contributing anything at all to that. Yet again, it is the

uncosted and untested promises we are getting from the BBC. -- yes

scholar not the BBC sorry. In that report, you said, that the BBC was

the pillar of public service broadcasting and that every country

once you have. But he once put Scotland out of that. Let me as Q

how that would work Blair? You're going to have the rest of the BBC

and Scotland will have 10% less funding, it is going to have to try

and sell is programmes for as much money as possible to make the

funding gap which will cost quite a lot? There are lots of international

benchmarks in comparisons. The cost would be relatively small. The very

large amount of money from licensing fee in Scotland has been race. The

Scottish broadcasting system recommend a dedicated Scottish

channel which was supported by all the parties in Scottish Parliament.

It has not happened because all power over Scottish media remains in

Westminster. This is interesting while anti-independence parties are

giving contradictory notions of revolution, none are suggesting

devolved broadcasting. If you look at what happens inside the BBC,

there is a devolution which says certain numbers programme have to

come from all around. A large number of programmes are commissioned in

the Scotland. The BBC would not enter commission things in Scotland

any more which would put a lot of independent people out of work. The

BBC will have financial issues and the budgets are being cut so the BBC

will have an incentive to co-commission with a new public

service broadcaster. It'd make perfect sense. Most of high-value

productions are coproductions funded by more than one broadcaster which

is an exciting opportunity for Scottish producers. On any scenario

that the tens of millions more pounds spent. But you just cannot

guarantee that. We would be pulling out of the BBC. Currently the BBC

networks Benz 10.8% in Scotland. That is more than our population. We

do not have that guarantee after independence. We cannot accept an

argument or a proposal that says we will get all of the benefits and

keep all the licence fee money, more money and more jobs, that makes no

sense. What he is changing is the relationship that we currently have

as part of the BBC which which would change it to a commercial

relationship. On a budget of 250 mill in would get a less service. We

have to leave it there. Joining me now

from London is Guardian columnist and presenter of the BBC Radio 4

Media Show, Steve Hewlett. Thank you Steve. As you listen to

these arguments about a Scottish broadcasting service my work does it

sound feasible to you? The truth is, nobody knows. On the face of it, the

numbers do not add up. I can see a perfectly plausible scenario west

people in Scotland can have it all. A new broadcasting service and the

existing BBC. I just do not see how you can do it for the money.

Roughly, back of a cigarette packet, 230 million in Scottish licensing

fees. Money spent on programmes in Scotland plus network commissions

from Scotland, between about two widget milling, this does not

include the cost of broadcasting in Scotland. This does not include any

allowance for what Scotland may be contributing phrase share of the BBC

global or international new services. This leaves you with a 100

million or slightly less. Now Blair's own report when he came with

the Scottish broadcasting service, reckon it would cost 75 million to

run. This means that, the numbers only stacker provided there is no

commercial value at all. No value put on any other BBC services. I

just do not see how you can do it. I don't know that what is necessarily

staring down the barrel of apocalypse, but do not and are

messed to Dechawat I interviewed Alexandre in Edinburgh

at a television Festival and he said, let us call this the Edinburgh

declaration. He said East Enders will be safe with us. He made light

of it and you know he is a great character. He did brilliantly but

the underlying message was, if voters go phrase second that they

might lose BBC programmes that they value, that might have an impact on

how they vote. It is not for me to say. I sit down here and merely look

at these things. I have no skin in this game. I'm not saying you cannot

have everything, I suspect you cannot have everything unless you up

paying more for it and that is apolitical difficulty. As you know

better than I do, the yes campaign are insisting you can have it all

for the same price. Thank you very much. Blair you insist the licence

fee would not go battle? I think there's absolutely no question that

we can afford to have our own national broadcasting. That just

does not add up. Thank you very much.

Now, you may remember that a couple of weeks ago we ran

an authored film by leading SNP MP Pete Wishart examining the often

Well, tonight, it's the turn of the other side.

With less than a month to go before Scots cast their vote, Labour MP Jim

Murphy, a former Secretary of State for Scotland, gives his personal

take on Scottishness and Britishness and explains why he doesnt want to

If you want to vote no thanks, do not let nationalist minorities drown

out the silence and quiet page of the majority.

CROWD CLAPPING For the past three months I have

been debating the referendum across Scotland. It is street politics,

just me and a microphone. There has been passion on both sides but it

also reminds Lee how culturally complex Scotland is.

This is where I spend most of my early years. In Glasgow's south side

much has changed. The local Co-op is long gone and it is now a Polish

deli. Down the road lies Scotland's biggest Muslim and Jewish

communities. So me different identities is the story Scotland. I

do not seem the logic of one identity over the others. Most of us

are constable being British. -- constable. Today I meeting a young

woman who I know feels really strong about her identity. One of the

remarkable things is the way we are connected across the UK with

families having multiple identities, what is your experience

as someone who is voting? I just have too maintained while I am

completely Scottish I am also British. I feel both equally. My mum

is English and my dad is Scottish. I am half and half. My brother is in

London and I feel like my identity is shared and I do not see why I

have tea at 18 years have to pick a side. And when Scotland play

England, who do you cheerful? It depends who I'm watching it with.

LAUGHING Whitehall 's most senior civil

servant is voting against independence but he has wrestled

with Scottish and British identity his entire career so what is his

take? Most people in Scotland think of themselves as Scots. But three

quarters think of themselves as British to some degree or other.

What I think is happening is people are taking for granted they are

both. In recent years we have been concentrating on improving

Scotland's reputation and in creating a parliament. When we are

faced with a choice, if you want to give up Britain, accurate member

being British is who they are. At the heart of shaping the Scottish

identity, there has been the River Clyde. This is the river who brought

other cultures into Scotland. Far too many face racism and

sectarianism, but it was a waterway that helped Scotland become a

diverse place. Glasgow is a city not without its Gaza but this is the

River that gave its shape. It is also the first thing that

generations of immigrants found. When they brought multiple

identities. Part of the river 's identity is a sense of working-class

pride. Men and women and a sense of industrial heritage. Liverpool and

the Mersey, Glasgow and the Clyde are synonymous with that. It is

fitting that on the banks of the Clyde, I meeting a ship Yard Stewart

who is a passionate Scott. It is a great honour to be working part of

the shipyard heritage. To be part of watching ships being built by your

own hands, your own mates hands, it gives a great sense of satisfaction

and pride because of the toil that went into those ships. I would hate

to see that go. I would hate to be turning round to say I used to be

part of the Clyde shipyard. That ship Yard being the last shipyard

would not be something I would like. In the end, when you strip away

everything else, what I am saying is pretty straightforward. Modern

Scotland is a melting pot of identities. Generations have come

here and brought the language, culture, food and identity and made

our country more prosperous and diverse. We share one thing in

common whether we were born here or came here, and that is a lot of our

nation. We also see things across the island, north and south. A

shield history. What sense does it make in the modern world to be

forced into a false choice of being Scottish or British when we can be

bought? -- both. Well, Jim joins me now

in the studio along with Yes Pat Kane, you spend a lot of time in

England and consider yourself to have some kind of British identity

as well as Scottish one. If there is a yes vote, would you have to choose

between them? I am not as interested in Britishness as I am Englishness,

Scottishness Irish and wealth. -- Welsh. One of the things I have

always been terribly idealistic about 40 yes vote is that, actually,

we have to think of our governance. I too a lot in England. I have done

that for 25 years. It is a hugely diverse country and there are a lot

of different areas. I am not anti-British but I am not a big fan

of the great, punch above our weight, part of Britishness. We can

make things more modest and go forward with a different identity.

Would Britishness disappear? Lots of Scandinavians lived in independence

countries who consider themselves Scandinavian as well as their own

nationality. There is no unique Scottish identity in the same way

that Pat said there is no unique English identity. I do not want a --

romanticise this idea. We did not ask those people who came, no matter

where they came from, we did not ask them to leave and deposit their

identity, their culture, food or language at the side of the dock.

Those people brought an identity and added to the sense of Scottishness.

The peculiar thing about the referendum is that it is the first

time we have been asked to remove one of identities. The Irish, the

Lithuanians, everyone brought a richness. That sense of adding to an

identity. And yet we are being asked to remove ourselves from one. Most

Scots are Scottish first but are in some way been comfortable as British

as well. Not to remove British identity but set it back a little

bit so that we can focus on Scottish. We adding to identities,

which is a European and global identity. An old phrase was stop the

world, we want to get on. That was a reason for independence. I think

this fits with a multicultural idea of Scottishness. If all the world is

in Scotland, that makes sense for Scotland to become independent and

be in the wider world and have that conversation about Scottishness with

other people in the family of nations as a nation. So the general

identity, and I have an Irish background, I have a Polish

grandfather somewhere, and I remember the great moment in 1982

when McIlvanney said we are a mongrel tradition. But I simply do

not see why that diversity cannot support a strong bid for

independence. First of all, the UK is a multinational state in itself.

Pat is articulate, but I just did not agree. His argument is wrong in

that the idea that you can vote for independence and vote to leave the

UK state and leave the British state and yet some way still be British...

When Ireland got independence, Ireland was fiercely not British. If

Catalonia gets its independence from Spain, they are not Spanish. So the

idea we can vote remove yourself from the social, political and

economic union from the -- of the UK and some with the British, we are

choosing to break that tradition. We're choosing voluntarily to remove

that identity. Particularly young people, who live in a social media

age, they do not understand this. Did you not think it was beautiful

when we had the recent exchanges between the Irish and British

governments? The Queen standing next to Martin McGuinness... It was

brilliant watching the Scots cheering on the English at Hampden!

We have to leave it there, now we have found something we agree on.

Thank you very much for that. Many of us know what it's like to

have a last-minute passport panic Well,

the Passport Office has been having a panic all summer long, with months

of backlogs and strike action. The Scottish Business Resilience

Centre says more and more people are being caught out by unofficial

websites who offer passport services or by sites which are identical

clones of Government ones. I did a Google search and came up

with the website called British passport services. I am always quite

reassured when I see a .org website. That sinking feeling when your

passport has to be renewed just before you fly. This man felt he had

been joked. He paid a company more than ?100 simply for arranging --

arranging an appointment. I was waiting in the Passport Office, busy

as always. I saw some signs on the wall saying, please make sure you

only use an official website. I thought, imagine being filled by

that. At that point I realised I was probably going to have to pay for my

passport again. Your guard is down when you are under pressure with

regards to time. You want to get everything done as quickly as

possible. All you're thinking about is getting the passport in your hand

by the time you depart. The company told the BBC that it made clear on

their website that they are an independent service. That fees paid

to them are separate to passport fees and they are not the Government

website. Agency selling passport services are something the Passport

Office ASDA, we're all. Like and Gavin's situation, it is not against

the law. This man helps Government and business combat cyber crime but

can only act when a crime has been committed. -- the Passport Office

are we're of. The way the wording is, they are not committing a

criminal offence. But some websites are simply cloning and are almost a

form of hacking or malware and are used for criminal purposes. Cloning

is entirely different to what Gavin experienced. No-one likes feeling

they have been shipped. But now we are discovering we may not even know

we have been had. You could be on a cloned website which means criminals

behind it can get personal information and your credit card

details. But they can link you back into the real website, which might

mean you get your passport, for example, as planned and be none the

wiser. At the hub of the Scottish Business Resilience Centre are these

guys, ethical hackers known as white hats, as opposed to sinister

hackers, the black hats. This is a legitimate Government website. So I

can go out very easily. That is our version of the Government website

here. -- cologne -- clone that. There are sites on line to

specifically con people. The advice is not to follow links because this

is becoming the way that passport applicants and others are becoming

cyber victims. Now, to talk about some other news

of the day, I've got Daniel Johnson, Chair of Scottish Fabians, and

Carolyn Leckie from Women for Thank you for coming. There has been

a bit of controversy today about a medal sent to the staff of work and

bench and is from the most senior civil servant in the department. He

was talking about the referendum. He said the UK Government has a clear

position to maintain the union is legitimate and for UK civil servants

to support the Government in this objective. Was he telling staff

devote no when he sent that memo? He was taking the Government position

and what civil servant should do to support that. He was clumsy, but,

you know, Alex Neill yesterday sent e-mails to tell NHS Scotland staff

what they should do and the benefits of independence. Let's look at what

he had to say. It is pretty similar, isn't it? No.

The DWP letters implying, at best, that people should support the union

and it is the jetty. Alec Newell is reassuring health workers, who have

been scared to death about their pensions, that an independent

Scotland will be able to deliver their pensions. It is two different

things. It illustrates as well the imbalance in this debate. You have

the whole UK state machinery arguing for a no vote and putting papers out

and letters to staff. They have complete power over them. It is an

abuse of power. All you have ended up with is the British state with

egg on their face. I do not think he should be just as embarrassed. That

was a stunning interpretation of just a few words. There is a wider

question about how should the state machinery in Scotland and the UK act

toward referendums? It is clear they have to be neutral and there are

other clear rules. One of the questions is, is there an ambiguity

around referendums? We need to look at that after the referendum. An

interesting poll taken by voters in England. It was in the Herald and it

said English say Scots will pay a heavy price for the referendum. They

said Westminster should reject the currency union. It gives you a

glimpse of why, even though it might make economic sense, some would

argue, for Westminster to a greater currency union, English voters might

not let them. It is a responsibility of the Westminster Government and

media in London to cover this referendum responsibly. I am not

sure they have on them not sure how much information people have had. It

is my experience, with trade unionist activists who I know, and a

supportive of Scotland being independent, Scotland challenging

Westminster, privatisation of the NHS etc, going on its own and

inspiring people... Do you think English photos will refuse to

cooperate with an independent Scotland if it happens? -- English

voters. It is more complicated than that. There has been a slow like to

England to wake up to the consequences of the referendum. The

media have not covered it as they should. The message I got from this

poll was that people are confused and I think we need more clarity.

Thank you very much for coming. That's all from us tonight. Thank

you for watching. I'll be back at the same time tomorrow night. Do

please join me then.