Referendum Special Scotland 2014

Now over to Sarah Smith on Scotland 2014.

Scotland is a different country tonight.

Not a separate one, but a changed place nonetheless.

Tonight, we look at what change is coming and who will shape it.

Alex Salmond will not, personally, be a part of bringing further

But as he stepped down as First Minsiter and leader

of the SNP, he also threw down the gauntlet to the other parties.

He said the Scottish people will hold Westminster's feet to

the fire and demand more powers for the Scottish parliament,

according to the timetable set out during the referendum campaign.

David Cameron said he intended to honour that promise.

But also said the "English question" has to be answered at the same time.

There should be English votes for English laws, he said.

Something that would suit the Tory Party just fine,

but that the Labour Party can almost certainly never agree to.

Ed Miliband made that clear today when said he wanted to stick to

the vow he signed alongside David Cameron to deliver further

But that English reform could not be agreed that quickly.

Tonight we know that major change is coming to the way Scotland is

governed and the rest of the UK as well. We will try to find out what

those changes look like, talking to politicians north and south of the

board as well as political experts and pundits. Let's look back at the

remarkable career of Alex Salmond. In that situation, I think party,

parliament and country will benefit from new leadership.

I heard a rumour. I think we won the election. I think we had better sit

up and take notice that something is changing in Scotland. Folk will look

at these results and they will be glad.

It is a government of occupation we face in Scotland, just as surely as

if they had an army at their backs. If we think about it, perhaps they

have. I am honoured to announce that on Thursday, 18th of September,

2014, we will hold Scotland 's referendum, a historic day for

people who will decide Scotland 's future.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think that has been pretty fair. Thank you very

much indeed. Thank you. Joining me now in the studio,

professor of public policy at Edinburgh University James

Mitchell, who has also written books Thank you for joining us. Alex

Salmond led the SNP for a total of 20 years in two 10 years bands. How

much has he changed Scotland? On his party, he took the SNP from a fringe

of politics to becoming the party of government that he has led. That is

a phenomenal change. Secondly, as 1st minister, he has changed the

nature of Scottish government. The whole structure of Scottish

Government has changed. We have a very different approach. Within

government coming he has put sustainable economic development,

particularly energy policy very much on the agenda. I suspect that some

of the benefits from those interesting highs in the policies he

has pursued will be felt well into the future. He has played an

enormous part on the Constitution and the creation of the Scottish

Parliament. There was a referendum in 1977 which was crucial. He kept

the issue of independence alive. Throughout that period he was a

central figure in the national movement. Support for independence 2

one half years ago was that 33%. It is now lying at 45%. For the first

time ever, we had 16 and 17 -year-olds voting. I think he can

look back and see a very rich career. I have only touched the

surface of many things he has been involved in and he has achieved. He

made it very clear that 1.6 million Scots have voted for independence

and things have to change and change substantially. He will not be part

of bringing that change. How complicated do you think it will be

to get more power is delivered to the Scottish Parliament? It will be

very challenging. Parties have made their position is clear. In the last

week also an attempt to try to find a coherent package, I am not clear

what that package really is. I did not see any coherence. I think the

referendum, and particularly the polls, suggested there was majority

support for independence which would concentrate minds. I do not think it

will be easy. Politics will move on in Westminster. There are many other

issues to consider, not just Scotland. The Scottish question will

have to compete with the European question, European issues and

matters of public finance. If you were to ignore the question, it

would come back and hit hard in the future. Alex Salmond said he would

hold Westminster 's speech to the fire and deliver on their promises.

He has said there would not be another referendum for at least a

generation. How can they make good on that threat?

It is not just the SNP, it is up to the electorate in Scotland. If we

are to believe what is said, there is sizeable support for more powers,

and a substantial latent support for independence. If the SNP can garner

that support, it will concentrate minds. Taking support away

particularly from the Labour Party. That will be a challenge for the

SNP. But I have to say, after this referendum, who knows? Scotland has

changed, moving in directions that none of us are certain about. I have

to say, none of the parties can be complacent. Thank you very much for

talking to us tonight. Earlier I spoke to former

SNP MSP Andrew Wilson and the former special advisor to

Alex Salmond, Stephen Gethins. Stephen, can I ask you for your

personal thoughts on Alex Salmond's resignation? Personally I think it

is very sad. Alex was a fantastic politician, he has made the most

dramatic impact on Scottish politics. He remained Scotland's

most popular politician. After seven years in government. I am really

personally sad to see him go. But I will say this on a personal note, he

deserves the time he takes now, and I hope he enjoys his semi

retirement, if you like. You worked closely with him as well, are you

sorry to see him go? I am and I am not, I think as always he has chosen

his moment with a touch of class and style. He had to go, when you think

about what is going to happen next. He chose it impeccably. I think his

second retirement should be hopefully more rewarding than his

first. What is the future for the SNP without Alex Salmond? What do

the next few years hold for the SNP? I think we will all miss Alex, who

wouldn't? But I think we have got a fantastic future in the SNP. One

thing that has been picked up by pundits and academics and others is

that the SNP has a fantastic bench in terms of talent, different people

with fantastic ideas. I think the future is looking pretty positive

for the Scottish National Party. I am very optimistic about it. You may

have talented ministers and a reasonably popular government, but

there is a fundamental question. If the national question has been

settled for a generation, what is the point of a Nationalist party? To

promote the interest of Scotland and make sure we continue to empower the

Scottish Parliament to drive the process of home rule further towards

its completion. No one is suggesting for one minute that 1.6 million

Scots that voted yes should somehow be disenfranchised and give up their

hopes and beliefs. No surprise that today we have learned that 1000

people have joined the SNP over the course of the last 24 hours. That is

remarkable. What that speaks to is and energy in the country that

doesn't want to give up, doesn't want to let go of the reform

imperative that has been unleashed on this country. -- an energy. It is

magnificent to watch. A great deal of the credit goes down to Alex

Salmond and his leadership. Are the SNP going to be a part of this

process of deciding what additional powers of the Scottish Parliament

gets? At the very point the UK parties are going to get together to

agree a plan, you are going to be fixated on a leadership contest.

There will be a leadership contest, which is something we should look

forward to. Saying that, although the SNP and the yes campaign did

fantastically, 1.6 million votes... Remember, 1997, the devolution

referendum, the amount of votes... So it is a great achievement. Saying

that, the no campaign won, and the next age is more powers. The SNP

will have their say, just like the other parties will. -- the next

step. I hope that we can keep the Westminster parties to their

promises and keeps the pressure up on them over the coming weeks and

months. Now the referendum is settled and Alex Salmond himself

said they would not be another one for a generation, what can the SNP

do to make sure those parties stick to their promises? If you are asking

me, the main focus has to be on the vow the three parties joint and put

in front of the daily record, making sure they are held democratically

accountable for it. It already appears within 24-hour is that

pledge number one has not been fulfilled. We will forgive that,

everyone is tired. But hopefully by the start of next week we can seem

meant behind it. It looks like David Cameron cannot agree with his own

party or Ed Miliband, and people in Scotland will have short patients

for a government and other parties not fulfilling their promises, that

were albeit made in haste towards the end of the campaign. A wee bit

cynical about how that came about, it is up to them to prove us wrong.

What can the SNP actually do if you are not proven wrong and any other

parties let you down? We need to put maximum pressure on them to make

sure they keep their promises. Andrew made a great point, as usual,

which was that they promised us just a few days before polling day... And

a lot of the Scottish people believe the promise, and so we need to go

forward in that spirit to hold them to account. What we can do is just

keep on reminding them that they have made this promise. And press,

as the SNP has done, to make Scotland's case at Westminster,

which unfortunately is still sovereign. We have a great bunch of

MPs who will continue to keep up the pressure in Westminster. Thank you

both very much. Everybody seems to be in Edinburgh tonight.

Earlier I spoke to our political editor Brian Taylor,

I asked him if he was surprised by Salmond's resignation.

Not particularly, to be honest. Two motivations. First of all the

strategic motivation, a remarkable campaign, an amazing democratic

event, but the cause of independence failed, they lost, the argument did

not convince sufficient people for them to win. So he is associated in

that regard with defeat, he feels it is time to make a break

strategically and allow the next individual, as he says, to drive

forward from that higher base camp to the potential summit of

independence at some point in the future. Secondly, there is a

personal argument. He has been the leader twice, the ten years on each

occasion, 20 years over a 24 year period. Scotland's longest serving

First Minister. Not a bad shift at the coal face, as he put it. So he

won't be a part of effecting whatever change comes to Scotland

now, how do you see the process of more power being delivered to the

Scottish parliament? There are two aspects. The focus frankly largely

shifts to Westminster, in terms of the discussions about a potential

bill in the Commons and the Lords eventually, although in the early

stages it will be a draft bill. The role of Scotland will be in

monitoring that, pursuing that. The role of the SNP and the independence

campaign particularly will be in driving forward those changes. We

heard from Mr Salmond today that he feels there is some signs of

disquiet between Labour and the Conservatives and he believes there

is slippage on behalf of the prime minister with regard to the

timetable. The pro-union parties say that is not the case, they say the

case of Scotland's potential bill is not coupled with the discussion

about whether there should be further change for England,

something which may take place on a different timetable. The Prime

Minister is adamant he has signed up precisely to the timetable as set

out by Gordon Brown Hummer not necessarily having a second reading

debate at Westminster. -- Gordon Brown, not necessarily having a

second reading debate at Westminster. Thank you for that.

So one question was answered pretty decisively last night.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

But what now for the Scottish parliament?

What of the solemn vow to deliver new powers within nine months?

Can it be done? Will it be done?

The remnants of referendum fever. But to win, the no campaign had to

promise change. That promise was laid out on the front page of the

daily record, titled" The vow". Within a few hours of victory, the

Prime Minister reminded us of the vow the three parties had taken. The

three pro-union parties have made clear commitments and further powers

for the Scottish parliament. We will ensure that those commitments are

honoured in full. That was the promise, but here is the bet he

didn't say before people went to the polls. The West Lothian question is

to be part of the deal. Just as Scotland will vote separately in the

Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so too

England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to

vote on these issues. And all this must take place in tandem with, and

at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland. At the same pace as

Scotland, six little words, and all of a sudden the vow looks like it

might be unravelling. Ed Miliband doesn't want to deal with the rest

of UK powers at that same pace. We want to go as fast as possible and

we want to do it in a way that properly understands the way we need

to change. We need to consult people and get this right, because the one

lesson we know is that we can't do this as a knee jerk quick fix way,

we have to do it in the right way. The most important thing, it can't

just be stitched up in Westminster, Whitehall, people wouldn't stand for

that. We need to start with the change people want to see. The West

Lothian question, which means Scottish MPs losing powers at

Westminster, is it now part of the deal giving Holyrood new powers? Is

Ed Miliband going to be forced to break his promise to Scotland if he

doesn't sign up to David Cameron's new plan?

Joining me now from Edinburgh, former Chancellor and Conservative

Is it possible that David Cameron can deliver new powers for the

Scottish parliament to the timetable agreed, by March of next year, and

also solve the intractable West Lothian question in the same time

period? I think they will be addressed together. Whatever the

outcome is, it has to affect the English, the Welsh and the Northern

Ireland share as well. Rewriting the constitution. My understanding is is

that what will be produced by next year is a second reading of the

bill, the draft. The next part will actually go on to change the law. I

don't think anybody contemplated suddenly writing a whole new

constitution for all four nations so quickly, just like the independence

question, this is for the next 50 years at least, it affects our

children, grandchildren, their ability to look over the -- look

after their own interests domestically, internationally,

economically, politically... No doubt there will be a great deal of

devolution, the Scots will have more devolution, nobody is going to go

back on that. The Constitutions, if they are going to last, have to be

in joined up writing. It is going to take quite a while to put together a

plan for English devolution and assault out the whole UK. If

something has to give, will it be the timetable, will he Scotland have

to wait longer for extra powers or will it be rushing through a plan

for England? Most Members of Parliament will want to stick to the

timetable. Undertakings were given to Scotland, but don't forget,

England, Wales and Northern Ireland have not had the debate, a

marvellous debate that Scotland has had over the last month or two. They

have to get up to speed. The timetable the devolution, if it were

kept to... I do think all of the English cities stuff, the English

devolution and all the rest of it, that is a different subject. We are

day after a quite remarkable result. Everybody is putting in bids from

all over the place, in those parts of the United Kingdom which have not

so far been involved. Once everybody has calmed down, we will get back to

delivering the promises to the Scottish people made in this

referendum. Ed Miliband said... You can't just write it on the back of

an envelope tomorrow. The SNP don't have the first idea in detail of

what further devolved powers actually demand. Ed Miliband said it

cannot be a deal stitched up in Westminster or Whitehall, he is

talking about a narked -- a national conversation before embarking on

constitutional change, but that will take some considerable time, won't

it? I am sure everybody will do their best. I think they will

achieve it. They were produced an outline of what is proposed before

the next election. The difference between the UK parties are not

substantial, we all agree it is tax and welfare... We have produced

proposals. We had Tom Strathclyde's commission... They are very

different... What proposals? The proposals for Scotland for the three

main UK parties have considerable overlap, but when it comes to

sorting out constitutional change for England, it is not. The

so-called West Lothian question is important. I produced proposals on

the West Lothian question the David Cameron before the last election. It

has been taken on and all kinds of things have been produced on the

West Lothian question. Most things are not English, it is far more

complicated than just the debate taking place 24 hours after this

vote. On both sides of the border. Of course no Scottish MP wants to

vote on anything that has no effect on his constituency. There are not

as many things as people imagine. We can make all of this by March, but

because of the excitement, bitterness, disappointment after a

referendum, we are having a slightly frivolous debate at the moment. We

will deliver devolution to Scotland. Thank you for talking to us.

Joining us tonight is Emily Thornberry. Ed Miliband said he

could deliver what was agreed in the timetable. The Prime Minister seemed

to think the 2 should happen at the same time. What a sensible person

Kenneth Clarke can be at times. When you are outlining his programme, you

were hoping there would be big differences between us. He has been

talking about the hysteria 24 hours later, about the Prime Minister

trying to bring about the idea of sorting out the Constitution and the

West Lothian question in such a short period of time is not

possible. He agrees with Labour. Our position as this. In 2012, we began

a debate in Scotland about how we should devolve powers. We consulted

very widely. At the beginning of this year we published what we

should do. There was a lot more emphasis week before the campaign.

Essentially we have always been completely clear about the sort of

things we would want. ) you have been completely clear about Scottish

powers. -- you have been. Let me take it in stages. We have also been

completely clear about the timetable. Whoever is in power in

May will be implementing that devolution, whether it is Labour or

the Conservatives. That is the agreement. Let's park that. David

Cameron, about an hour after the results were announced, came out

outside Number 10 and started to hitch a whole lot of other stuff

onto it, in particular trying to hitch on the idea of indicia MPs

voting on in this legislation. -- English MPs voting on English

legislation. Whatever he was planning all along to attach the

English question to it. As Ken Clarke, who, until recently, a

senior member of the Cabinet has said, it is not possible to hit

those things together. In the blink of an eye, on the back of a fag

packet, we cannot decide to have major constitutional change for this

country. The Constitution of this country is not some sort of toys for

David Cameron. I was disappointed when he came out this morning with a

rather glib, pretty party political and pretty facile analysis of what

should happen next. We have a 2nd chamber. We have the House of Lords.

Everyone knows that needs to be changed. Why are we not using that

as a regional assembly? Why are we not talking to people in England the

way we talk to people in Scotland about what powers they think should

be devolved to the city than -- cities and regions across England?

You were able to hear both of those interviews. Ken Clarke seemed to

think it was no problem at all to reform the whole British

constitution by Easter. Emily Thornberry made it clear it would

take years to resolve the English question but then she can decouple

it from the Scottish question. -- thinks she can. If I have a puzzled

and perplexed look on my face, that is because that is how I feel. Those

2 politicians have not understood the conversation that Mister Clarke

seems to think Scotland has been having for the last couple of

months. Actually it is 2 years, if not longer. I do agree with your

position. I think the Prime Minister laid a clever trap the Labour and

Labour has been caught in that. The fact of the matter, if we bring it

back to Scotland, 1.6 million people voted to say they did not want to be

part of the union. A substantial majority, I believe, of those who

said they did want to be part of the union did so on the basis of what

they believed was a promise from three political leaders at

Westminster and will expect that promise to be delivered to the

timetable that Gordon Brown made much of. What is interesting is, in

addition to everything else, in a discussion that we have just seen,

somehow the people of Scotland, that grassroots campaign and the Scottish

Government do not seem to feature in all of this. It is going to be taken

down to Westminster where it will be sorted out. That is such a

misreading of what we have been doing. In Westminster, they probably

think, the Scottish question has been settled. It looked tight for a

while but we got away with it. Why should we worry about Scotland any

longer? I think what happened after Scotland secured its parliament in

1998, that actually Westminster than thought that was Scotland dealt

with. They have paid little attention to us in the intervening

years and do not understand how Scotland has changed in that period.

This bow was written on the back of a fag packet frankly. It was a

political fix to get the union parties through to September the

19th and everything would be fine. It worked but my deep upset is for

those folks who voted against independence, believing in the

promise that they were made who may be utterly disillusioned in the

months ahead. Our job is to get that grassroots campaign and that

Scottish Government to the table. We will all be watching what happens.

Let's take a look at how the rest of the world are reporting

The New York Times reports Alex Salmond will step down after his

failed bid for independence. France 24 online reports how Scots have the

opportunity to hold Westminster 's feet to the fire. The Times of India

reports the first minister 's speech saying his time is nearly over. The

dream shall never die, he says. Joining me now to talk

about all the day's events, former Yes Scotland director

of communications Susan Stewart Plus, Alison Dowling from

Better Together. Thank you very much for coming in.

It is quite a day to collect your thoughts. I will start with you,

Susan. You must be bitterly disappointed. I was bitterly

disappointed with the result. I think we can all take heart in the

turnout of both sides and from the Yes Scotland perspective. The amount

of people who got involved in political activity who had never

been engaged before. From the perspective of independence, they

will not go back into the private sphere and leave politics to the men

in suits. Scotland has changed. That is something political parties in

Scotland and Westminster ought to take license. We saw earlier a

picture of a dejected looking Alex Salmond. He has tweeted out a much

happier picture this evening of him and his wife, Moira, on their way

back home to Aberdeenshire. He has thanked everyone for kind messages

of support. That may be the last we will see of him for a time. Will you

miss him? I will anyway because he is a character. I think that a lot

of people who have not been directly involved in this campaign, and I am

not involved with political parties, I think that people are now

beginning to understand how emotionally important it was for a

whole range of different people, for the winning side, for Alison 's

side, and I have been a yes supporter, so obviously I am on the

losing side. I went to my local yes group in Glasgow, who had the

biggest single majority anywhere in Scotland. Campaign workers were

elated with their achievement, albeit that they have lost the big

campaign, they had won a small race. That is sometimes important in life.

They turned out at a snooker club getting drunk and good on them. They

did a good job for a community that has a lot of social deprivation.

They brought people out to believe it did not happen but it's time will

come. To what extent do the better together parties take on board that

when all those Scots vote for independence that means it is better

than ever. Almost half of the country has voted for independence.

Our side one, if you want to describe it like that. It cannot be

ignored. The main story tonight is the squabbling between some of the

main parties. It has to be resolved. Scottish people will hold the

politicians to account if they do not deliver on the row that was

promised. It is much bigger now. -- vow. It is out of the hands of the

Scottish people. I do not have a problem with broadening this out. It

is devolution in action. It is bringing in civic society hopefully

as well will stop I want to see that for all of the regions in the

countries of the UK, not just here in Scotland. It have to take

cognizance of the fact we have had a 2-year referendum campaign. The

people of Scotland need to be heard and will be heard. I was slightly

disagree. Because Pat Caines is not in the studio, I feel obliged to

mention the Marxist side. He said there were three phases in the

evolution. It is important because it is the emergence, the dominant

and the residual. The dominant is where Alison and her group are. They

control, dominate and they have won the referendum. The residual is

happening in George Square, where a fading and almost derelict version

of unionism is actually shaming Scotland currently in 1 of our major

squares. The emerging is the group of people that were part of this

remarkable campaign around yes Scotland, all the groups. They are

the new normal in Scotland. The idea that independence is not mainstream,

you would have to be drunk to believe that is not true. Is that

something you would share? Absolutely. Of course, the Scottish

people are now expecting the promises will be kept. It is a

numbers game. We are nine months away from Westminster general

election. Scottish boats, by virtue of our size, are pretty irrelevant.

This battle will be fought out in England. This is back on the back

burner. That's all from us tonight.

Thank you for watching. I'll be back at the usual time

of 10.30pm on Monday.