26/10/2015 Scotland 2015

The House of Lords sends the Chancellor back

to think again about his plans to cut working tax credits.

In a humiliating defeat for the Conservative government,

the House of Lords tonight voted to delay cuts to tax credits and to

Have unelected peers overstepped the mark, and where does this now

The Scottish Conservatives leader, Ruth Davidson,

I'll be asking her if she's happy with this government defeat.

And we look at what people get out of singing and why choirs are no

longer just the preserve of elderly ladies at church.

Controversial plans to cut tax credits have tonight been left

in limbo, after the UK government was defeated in the House of Lords -

Peers voted to delay the changes pending an independent review,

even though ministers said the Lords had no right to get involved.

Andrew Black looks back on an eventful day at Westminster.

What are you entitled to? Tax credits claimed by more than 4

million people across the UK have been linked to big improvements in

child puppetry. The UK Government now wants to cut them as it brings

in other benefits to support less well off families. -- child poverty.

That has been argued by those who think the changes will hit those on

low incomes. So the scene was set for a political showdown in an

unusual setting. Today in the House of Lords, multiple attempts were

made to derail the government's reforms, but proceedings began with

a warning that the Lords had no right to block a financial measure

which had already been backed by the House of Commons. Whether it was to

completely reject it outright, or to withhold it, we would be challenging

the financial privacy of the other place. Despite that, there were

calls for the reforms to be delayed until that impact could be assessed.

The Prime Minister said in his speech to the Conservative

conference, the British people want a government that supports the

vulnerable. We will deliver, he said. This amendment provides an

opportunity for the Prime Minister to honour that pledge. He went on,

the Conservatives are the party of working people. It is no wonder that

dozens of Conservative backbenchers, perhaps most of them in fact, once

the government is to think again. They don't want the Prime Minister

to have misled the people of Britain. We can be so supportive

instead of those 3 million families facing letters at Christmas telling

them, on average, they will lose up to around ?1300 a year. In the end,

the house backs the Baroness's call. And, moments later, a second defeat

for the government as peers voted for Labour's position to increase

financial support for anyone affected by tax credits changes. My

Lords, we have voted 289 contends, not contend is 272. That has forced

the UK Government to think again. Labour and Liberal Lords who were

not elected have voted against measures in a Conservative budget

and that raises constitutional issues, I think what people want to

know is how we will approach the tax credit issue. I said I will listen

and we are going to listen to the concerns that have been raised. I am

delighted to delay the changes, it would have been better if we had

killed this stone dead, but I am happy that there is progress and I

am happy that the Chancellor is being forced to think again. The UK

Government is clearly not happy with the way events unfold tonight. But

it is now committed to bringing forward revised proposals to

Parliament next month. And we can speak to our Westminster

correspondent, Tim Reid, Good evening, Tim. How significant a

defeat is this for the Chancellor? It is hugely embarrassing for George

Osborne not to... Just a couple of weeks ago, he was saying before the

Treasury Select Committee that he was pushing ahead with plans to cut

tax credits and it was a matter of judgment. On that judgment stacked,

he has been defeated twice. There was some pretty fierce language

being bandied around in the house of Lords today. There is something

rather ironic about the now praising unelected Lords in the upper is for

doing something that is the House of Commons was unable to do and

something ironic about the Conservatives complaining about the

unelected Lords in the house of lords doing something which they

don't usually do, but on this occasion they have not blinked.

Quite often, the House of Lords blinks when it comes to big

constitutional issues like this. Particularly when they are being

threatened with flooding the House of Lords to prevent it from

happening in future. Number ten and number 11 are tonight very unhappy.

It leaves George Osborne with a huge headache of how to deal with

reducing the welfare bill, particularly with tax credits, and

doing it in four weeks. He said it will do -- he will do its bit for

the Autumn Statement. Where does this leave his plans? Your macro he

is going away to think about it. He's back in the House of Commons

tomorrow for Treasury questions. John MacDonald this evening came to

the dispatch box. He first criticised the response of the

government, saying they would think again, but telling the media first

and not the House of Commons. He has been asked to make an oral statement

in the House of Commons tomorrow. Whether that happens tomorrow is not

clear tonight, but he will be at the dispatch box to defend the

government's proposals and presumably to try to answer some

questions on that, and there is also the welfare bill back in the Commons

tomorrow, at which many MPs presumably will be taunting the

Chancellor and the Prime Minister for taking this to the brink and

losing with the House of Lords defeating them twice. Will the

governments take revenge on the Lords for this? There is certainly

some warnings from number 11 and number ten. Number ten say they will

review the arrangements around the House of Lords to make sure they

cannot do this again and the Chancellor himself saying he will

see the approach we take. They have been warned. Thank you.

Although she's not in the House of Lords, or the Commons, the Tory

tax credit row WILL have an impact on my next guest come the spring.

She's the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson.

Joining me for the last in our series of interviews with

Good evening. Good evening. This was a humiliating defeat for the

government. You pleased? I think we got to remember the principle here,

which is to go from a high welfare society to a high wage society,

meaning companies paying their workers in wages that they don't

need them topped up by the government. I agree with that

principle, but I have put on record that I was worried about the

fermentation and how that would work, and we had to find a way to

make sure people didn't lose out in the transition period. So this is

good news. This option is -- this offers an opportunity for the

comments to look at fine tuning the implementation. This is a sound

policy. People right across the UK agree that we shouldn't have a big

company, some of the big supermarkets for instance, paying

wages to their employees that they cannot live on, knowing the

government will top adults, while recording hundreds of millions of

pounds whether profit every year. There was always going to be a

shortfall, wasn't there? If you introduce these cuts before the

living wage bills up. Before these companies were forced to pay more to

their employees. This shouldn't have come as a surprise. I think you had

from the Chancellor before the debate today that he was listening

to some of the concerns that people within the Conservative Party and

other parties had raised. He came out immediately after the vote

tonight to see he had taken at board and was looking at how to implement

this. There is an issue here about if you are reducing tax credits

before the uptake in wages in, how does that affect people on the

lowest wages? I have spoken publicly about senior people within the

Conservative Party. It was something we were aware of and were looking

at. The Chancellor said it was a judgment call. His judgment was

wrong. I think he has been defeated in a vote tonight. Concerns were

raised, not with the principle of this. We have support from others

than the Conservative Party, that you should pay people enough that

they should be able to live on it without being subsidised. It is

about making sure you get this right and I think this offers is an

opportunity and I have been saying for a couple of weeks since our

party conference, I was expecting movements and more detail on how we

would do this by the Autumn statements. We have had confirmation

from the Chancellor. I was asked by the Guardian journalist on this and

said I was expecting movements, I would welcome movement and a bit

more detail by the Autumn Statement. Tim was in the room at

the time and did a number of interviews with the BBC during the

course of that conference for whatever reason. Nobody decided to

pick up on that or think it was a story or to ask me about it. I spoke

on Thursday, Friday, in the Sunday newspapers. I spoke to colleagues

down south and in the cabinets. This is something I have raised, that

other people within the Conservative Party have also raised. Did you

raise it with the Chancellor? I raised this at Cabinet level, I

often speak to the Chancellor and reminisced and do not discuss our

conversations on television programmes. Do you think they took

your concerns on board but you might he wasn't watching. The Chancellor

was an listing Nicky Morgan, saying the same thing, you heard George

Osborne say again tonight that he had said he would listen, he has

listened again, and he will go back and look at how we will implement

this. I really think this is an opportunity to take a step back,

take a deep breath, go back to the problem. It is quite a thorny,

knotty problem. Nobody said this would be easy. To work out a way in

which we can do this so that we get the aim is that we as a party have

always wanted, a party that gets people into work. We have got 2

million more people into work. We allow people to get on once they are

in work and makes work pay. These are things we have been doing for

five years. What is the bottom line? If we see a single mum working

full-time on a minimum wage, who currently loses ?1500, should she,

as the Lords are demanding, be fully compensated, or do you think that

people, everybody will have to take a hit? I have

people, everybody will have to take people, particular those at the

bottom end, losing out. different ways you can do that.

There are ways in which different ways you can do that.

taken into account. I don't think I can sit here without looking at all

the numbers, I am not part of the Treasury team. You don't want

working families to be out of pocket at all. What I want is, exactly, I

want working families, work to keep paying.

people across the whole of the UK to have that deterrent. This is

something that will last until 2060. I have no idea what strategic

security threats will face as a nation in ten, 15, 20 years, never

mind 40. I don't know if North Korea will be more or less dangerous, if

Russia will be more or less dangerous. That is where you have an

insurance policy. Frankly, I think it is disappointing to see the

Labour Party in Scotland and the kind of political bank was in 70% of

their own members support renewing this and understand that this is

about having that insurance policy for the security of our nation.

The first is that you want to be judged on closing the attainment gap

in education. What is your big idea for the election?

There is a number of ways that we can close that attainment gap.

Nicola Sturgeon has been Deputy First Minister and now First

Minister for nearly nine years, we have seen that attainment gap widen,

not close. We have been talking about education for some time. I

think education has to be the top of everybody's education. In these two

opportunities in life chances. We talked about the ways in which you

can improve this. I have been a bit disappointed that it is only eight

and a half years into the jobs of that she has held that Nicola

Sturgeon has woken up to the fact that there is a problem here.

A couple of weeks ago at your conference, you were saying you

expected the Tories will have the best ever election result. What are

you predicting that in terms of seats?

I'm not quick to say in terms of seats, but it is easy enough for you

to look up what we have had in the past.

19? I'm not putting a limit on my ambition, but that would give us

better than we have had in the past and I would like to see that and

more than that. And you really think that is

possible? We know that about quarter of all

Conservative supporters voted tactically it election we just had

four other parties to keep the SNP out. We note that a full 10% of

Labour voters across Scotland have said they are now moving to the,

around or he doesn't week. Do you think you will push Labour in

the third-place? I think there are a lot of people

out there who voted to keep Scotland within the United Kingdom that are

looking on at horror to vacillation but the Labour Party is having right

now, the Jihad Jeremy Corbyn and seeing him taking them so far away

from this idea of responsible governance, responsible economy,

looking after people who work hard and do the right thing. I figure

these people, you're welcome in the Conservative Party. If you want a

party that wants to have good education, reform public services, a

well funded and managed economy that does not hammer you want tax, but

also will always stand up for the decision that we made as a nation to

stay as part of the United Kingdom, the Conservative Party is here for

you. If you do not meet that -- reach

that magic 19, would you continue as leader?

, and asked me the week after election, but I think we will do

well in May. Thank you for joining me this

evening. That's the message of a new musical

which opens in Glasgow this week. A longheld ambition

of singer-songwriter Ricky Ross of Deacon Blue and actor

Paul Higgins, The Choir is also the first co-production outside London

for the Ambassador Theatre Group. Our arts correspondent

Pauline McLean reports. In Glasgow's citizen Theatre, and

you musical is taking place. The Acquired follows a fortune of small

but diverse immunity brought together by singing. It is a

long-held ambition of Ricky Ross and actor Paul Higgins.

I thought it would be a very fraternal area, committee choir, the

idea being that these 12 people would never be in the same room

together if it wasn't for this choir.

It allows each member of the choir to tell their story in song and for

the songwriter, he will need to get around his discomfort around

musicals. Suddenly, someone is in the middle

of a very important dialogue or they are embracing or widen suddenly

burst into song and I think I had a slight issue with that, I have to

admit. I'm over that now, I'm fine, but I wanted to make sure that when

songs... I had to feel that the songs had a real natural place in

it. I'm sorry, I don't think it is in

the right part of your voice. You could have this over-the-top.

Committed a sin he used to be limited to churches and football

terraces, but choirs are everywhere at the moment. Not least in the BBC

show The Naked Choir, in which groups have to sing a cappella.

Glasgow University's root Choral Stimulation are the hot favourite to

win. The thing I love about singing is

the connection you get with other people in the sound you can make in

with that sound you can get a reaction from people of either

laughter, crying, the silence, being able to give someone some sort of

experience through the music you're singing, it is relieved, really

nice. Especially we can do that with some of the greatest people you

know, it is very special. For most choirs, it is about the

community, not the competition. That is what is ago veteran Peter

Polycarpour believes make this new show a winner.

They are not professionals, these are people coming together making

music and I find that fascinating. It is really honest, down-to-earth

and is full of heart. It's about why people want to come together, give

their evenings up and make these up. It's a lovely idea, isn't it?

-- make this music. Ambassador Theatre Group certainly think so.

This is their first oh original co-production in Scotland. Only

don't expect everyone to sing along. I'm terrible. I probably look at

myself, I'm the one who does want to join in, but I am unusual. Most

people do. I certainly want to join in. It

frustrates me that I cannot, and usually I know I am on stage and I

find hard. Envy them being able to sing these fantastic songs together.

Now for analysis of some of today's big stories - I'm joined by a couple

From the Times, Lindsay Mcintosh, and Tom Gordon from

Thanks to you both of you to coming in this evening. But back to the top

story tonight, the humiliating defeat in the Lords for the

Government over tax credits. Where do you think this leaves the

Chancellor's plans? As you say, it is humiliating for

him, embarrassing for him. He made this really a question of his own

personal judgment. He was saying that right up until recent days, and

the fact that he is not managed to get it through the House of Lords is

indeed very embarrassing for him. And for a man who is seen as the

sort of master strategist of the Conservative Party and clearly has

ambitions to lead the party after David Cameron.

He has thrown down the Government, saying it was his judgment call.

Looks like you got it wrong. The media plans are obviously

problematic for him, he has to come back with the audit stated -- Autumn

Statement next month with his longer plans. It has ambitions to lead the

party, those of the interesting ones. It is early in the parliament,

a lot of voters will have forgotten about this in a few years' time.

Tory MPs who will choose the next leader will not have forgotten about

this. It is not long ago that George Osborne made a complete mess of the

2012 budget. People confidence in him saying. It just are the recover

and that this along. He shows himself as a tone deaf politician,

does not understand what is worrying the public, what is worried the

parliament and he is bungled it. You will have heard Ruth Davidson

talking as well. She basically said she had been concerned about this

for sometime, although I had not heard concerns until the comedy

programme she was on recently, but perhaps as political editors maybe

you heard of her concerns comes back it has been her position for some

weeks. Ruth Davidson has been very good at

reading the political weather in terms of what has happened at UK

level and position herself well in that. I think as well for a leader

who has very much topped up the working-class Tory side of her

party, it really make sense for her to be very much opposed to what was

going on with these tax credit cuts and I think it's really a genuine

position that she has been taking to say this cannot be the kind of thing

that we as the new modern Conservative Party stand for.

So it's not a difficult line to try to, basically, by saying on the one

hand I believe in the principal, but I have serious concerns about how

it's implemented. Do you think that will be easy to sail on the

doorsteps? Not really. The principal is

slashing ?4.5 billion of the budgets he really need the money. It is one

thing about reducing the deficit, people can understand that. But the

mechanism you do, the route you take him at the choices you make and the

people you hurt, the losers you create, these are big choices for

politicians. She is on the wrong side of the argument, I think, for

that. She cannot say it is a matter of fine-tuning the detail or I

favored the general principle, the general principle involves taking

billions of pounds away from people who cannot afford it.

She was still maintaining that the Tories will have their best ever

collection at Holly Ridge, we even got a number, 19 seats. Is that

possible, achievable? I think there is a coherent argument

that extends why that should happen post-referendum she is pursuing this

intelligent vote for the union strategy and I think it also clearly

Labour are in a bit of disarray at the moment. There is an argument to

be made about why the Tories should do well north of the border.

However, we have heard similar arguments before and it has ever

translate into those votes and seats to the degree that Ruth Davidson

would want them to. Are you seeing signs of her Tory

revival? The much famed Tory revival! We have

heard about it many times before and never seen it. The complexities of

the regional vote system in Holyrood. And that Labour decline

could see the rise of this. It is possible they could do very well and

conceivably even better than Labour, some think Labour may crash into the

teens of from where they are now. So it is just about possible. But as

Lindsay said, we have seen this movie before.

You bring me quite neatly round to Scottish Labour, who are obviously

hoping for a revival as well. Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy Corbyn today

signed a joint letter of intent, pledging to make Scottish Labour

more a... Economist, they had Tom Watson there witnessing the whole

thing. Here is what Kezia Dugdale had to say about it.

This will put any perception that we were a branch office to bed. The

Scottish Labour partner will be run in Scotland by me. It is a good news

for Scotland, means we will have strong position in place for the

Scottish National Party, we will have a Labour Party fit for the

future. That is very much what people want.

Is it clear how these plans are actually going to work in practice?

No, it's not. Kezia Dugdale was at Westminster tonight speaking to the

PLP and laying out these plans which he got through. But after that,

there were a number of people at that meeting saying, awaited second,

we agree in principle but we do not know how this will work in

practice, if the UK party and Scottish party take a different

opinion on a key issue, how is the one Scottish Labour MP expected to

vote if he comes up in comments? It is not clear yet. And Jeremy Corbyn

said it was the historic day today, that Kezia Dugdale is now the boss

in Scotland. Do you buy the?

I think it a necessary change, but I do not think it is historic or

dramatic. It will not while voters. If you go to the doorstep saying

that you can now make basic decisions about policy and

candidates, people will say you should've been able to do that all

along. It will not get credit for doing what everybody else does. It

is a necessary step in the right direction. The problem for Labour in

Scotland is the do not have enough money to stand on her own tune VAB

-- on their own two feet. Two more years like what they've had and they

are broke. They need the money the UK can bring them and they will

never have economy that way. One Labour MP was reported this

evening as saying his could potentially mean the end of Labour

as a Unionist party. It is an interesting narrative here.

On one side we have got the Labour Party and the Scottish Labour Party

docking the union and saying we are Better Together, but then

concurrently with that we have got the Labour Party itself looking like

it is splitting or fragmenting to a degree. So it's interesting how they

will square those two arguments. And just briefly, do you see any

clamour within Labour? They are talking about a federal Labour

Party. Is anywhere else in UK Labour clamoring for that?

Not that I am aware of. There is a big chance for Kezia Dugdale,

because the roadblock to reform is always the Scottish MPs. Now the

MSPs outnumber them 37 or 38 21. -- 37 or 38-1.

That is all we have got time for tonight.

For fans of Gareth Malone's The Naked Choir, we'll leave you with

an exclusive performance from the finalists, the Glasgow University