22/02/2016 Scotland 2016

Campaigns launched, well-rehearsed arguments expounded -

Treated in this message to Scotland and campaigning in Scotland. I

enjoyed doing that duelling the Independence Referendum and I look

forward to making this item and again that we are better off

together. We've been sampling the mood

of the nation and we'll hear from Brussels as we debate the pros

and cons of in and out. And the question we've been asking

ourselves for weeks - is a deal on the fiscal

framework finally possible? It was time to stand in the comments

and make his argument. We are a great country and whatever

choice we make we will still be great but I believe the choice is

between being an even greater Britain inside the EU or I great

leap into the unknown. And this time the Prime Minister has the SNP as an

ally that there is a warning. I want to Scotland and the rest of the UK

truly mean within the European Union. However if we are forced out

of the EU I am certain the public in Scotland will demand a referendum on

Scottish independence and we will protect our place in Europe. The man

who wants are place to the out of Europe. Boris Johnson.

I ask my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to explain to the

House and to the country in exactly what way this deal returns

sovereignty over any field of lawmaking to these houses of

parliament? This deal brings back some welfare powers, it brings back

some immigration powers, it brings back some bailouts powers. So he

thought the deal was not good enough. Arleigh Burke MSP also

agreed that. -- a Labour member Matt.

He went on to say that the Prime Minister had accepted that the City

of London would not have special status can bear to Europe's other

stock exchanges. Why is there such a deficit in what the French President

is saying and what the pie minister is saying?

Well, just before we came on air I spoke to the Daily Record

Westminster Editor Torcuil Crichton to find out how febrile

Today was one of those classic Commons moments where you had high

national politics clashing with personal ambition, revenge and

jealousy because David Cameron came before the Commons today after he

had had a huge blow for his old friend Michael Gove who went to the

other side and an even bigger blow by the theatrical move by Boris

Johnson to the outcome. David Cameron came facing half the Tory

party against him, and eight new figurehead on the outcome pain.

What's that he do? He turned on Boris Johnson and lacerated him and

slash his argument about Boris Johnson's competition at argument

about voting to leave in order to stay to get a better deal which is

his tortured way of saying he wants to be Prime Minister. He managed to

turn that around and deconstruct its because David Cameron said he had no

further ambition except the best interests of the country, in other

words Boris Johnson has a different interest. Where is the Conservative

Party standing tonight? There was a meeting of the 1922 backbench

committee. There was. This is a divided party and that was written

large in the Commons today and backbenchers are as David Cameron to

take it easy on Boris Johnson which is like asking somebody who has done

a hit and run to time back and give a blast addition to the victim.

David Cameron just let his anger and frustration of years with Boris

Johnson vent today and cut him down. The trouble with that is that this

is in danger of being a Tory psychodrama, this civil war in the

Tory party. It is entertaining. It is the first time Labour MPs have

been in the Commons for a long time and enjoyed themselves because

usually the boot is on the other fruits but none of that is what the

European referendum is all about. In Scotland will be a be a different

type of conversation when it comes to this debate? There are two

factors. Boris Johnson cleans he is one of the big figures you can shift

opinion. Let us not pretend that Scottish viewers are any less immune

to the political machinations at Westminster than they are to the

plotlines of Eastenders or Coronation Street. Of course it will

have an effect but Boris Johnson will not change votes in Scotland

but the fact that things are falling apart a little bit for David Cameron

will have an effect. The SNP which has strict discipline about April

European front, that'll have an effect. There is a big gap in the

market for the SNP, once again to the left, where Labour should be,

and Labour are just not in this debate, about making a positive case

for a social Europe, a cohesive unit, a unit that opens its arms to

refugees. That is where the SNP will go and fill that void where there is

not a positive case for Europe. Labour could be doing it but the SNP

will. Thank you. Now there is no question

that the continent of Europe has had an influence on what we

eat in this country. So what better places to guage

opinion than in restaurants, Our reporter Catriona Renton went

on a tour of European eateries to find out what people think

about the referendum. At the editorial meeting this

morning the talk was all about Europe and we quickly got onto the

topic of food. French, German, Italian. It took very little to

persuade me to go out and take a sample of the flavour of what we

were talking about out there. We started at this little part of Italy

in the centre of Glasgow. This man is from Italy and works in

Glasgow. He has lived here for two years so he will not have a vote. He

thinks however that Scots should vote to leave the EU based on his

experiences in Italy. The system is not working. Now we need something

to wash our pizza down with. This German beer hall is a good bet. What

does the owner think about the referendum? They would be lots of

problems if we left and if we stay in there will still be problems. I

am more tending to stay in at the moment. Now we could do with some

cake for dessert. This person moved to Scotland from France over 60

years ago. She thinks Scots would be better off out of the EU. Do we stay

in or leave the EU? We should leave the EU. Why? Because the people here

are nice and are wealthy enough to look after ourselves. It is one

country and we should look after it the best we can. Without any

stranger coming over and taking advantage. This time we went for a

place with Scottish names to round off our meal. This person thinks we

should stay in the European Union. There is no reason to leave. It

would jeopardise jobs. A lot of the things we have built up, protections

that Europe gives as, we should definitely keep. Now we know the

date. There is four months to pick what to your taste.

I'm now joined from Brussels by the Shadow Scottish Secretary,

He's been making a speech there tonight and with me

in the studio is the former Conservative MSP Brian Monteith

Ian married, you were speaking in Brussels and you said opponents of

the EU would deny rather than face the forces of globalisation but

Jeremy Corbyn is against controversial trade deals. He is

denying the forces of globalisation is he not? If you look at Scottish

industry and British industry it is in the interest to stay within the

European Union. I was with the Scottish Whisky Association last

week and they were telling me the great benefits of being part of the

European Union, not just with the half a billion people that live

within it but with the bilateral trade agreements and other parts of

the world. It is about jobs and livelihoods and putting forward a

positive case as to why that is important for Scotland and the UK.

That is the kind of conversation we had in Brussels today. It is about

jobs and livelihoods. That is what one of your colleagues said. She

said it is a Labour left-winger I come and leaving the European Union.

You could end the rules against the state aid for the steel industry and

support the steel industry in the UK. The state industry could be

supported if conservative MPs were not voting regarding steel dumping.

The rest of the Labour MPs are voting to stay in. We will be

putting a positive case about why we should stay in. Being an integral

part of rules to Scotians is in the interests of all Scots. Businesses

will tell you that. Individual Scottish workers will tell you that.

Social protections, cultural protections. Brian Monteith, Ian

picked up on the point that the entire country is having to watch

this conservative psychodrama being played out. We are all having to

watch and listen again to the arguments of Margaret Thatcher and

Geoffrey Howe. I do not see it that way at all. I struggle to recognise

what Iain Murray is saying about the Labour Party. There is more than

just one MP. There are many other Labour MPs who are speaking. They

are speaking out against EU membership. He said six or seven.

This is the Tory psychodrama. It is not about the Tory party. This is a

binary referendum. Leave or stay. Across parties you will find

divisions. It is only natural. That will play out. If people want to

focus on personalities and partisan politics they are missing the

biggest opportunity in a generation. Let us focus on a key issue,

security. Iain Duncan Smith said yesterday that staying in the EU

could contribute to more Paris style terror attacks. David Cameron put

him firmly in his place today did he not? The Prime Minister was not

trusting to the BBC security correspondent who revealed out the

security services themselves believe that the most important

relationships are not with EU countries but are worth the United

States, Australia and so on. That is where the security relationship is

strong. The fact that we have a terrific security service that we

have no doubt that people would want to share information with us because

we will be able to give them information that they need. Ian

Murray, let us pick up on what Michael Gove was saying, a key

figure in the out campaign, he was saying that as a minister she does

not feel he has control over what he can do it is own job. And a Labour

MP who has been a minister picked up on that as well. UK ministers do not

have freedom to manoeuvre because the European Union. I do not accept

that. There is this scaremongering story that the European Union

contributes 90% of legislation in the UK. That is not true. The House

of Commons library has looked at this time and time again and

emphasised it is close to 10% or perhaps 12% if you take into account

even the word unit. Let us look at what some of that legislation is.

Holiday pay. Paternity pay. Social protections. All those kinds of

issues that are low Scots and Brits to live in Spain or Italy or

Germany. That is the kind of thing and I would've thought that it Iain

Duncan Smith, I could go off, was on one side of the idle and, most Scots

would want to be on the other. So some key issues at play here.

Annie Conservative MEPs are supporting you in your campaign? I'm

not aware of any and I are not troubled by it. This is about

people. If I look at the polling and surveys, I find that why the

Conservative voters are split 50-50, I find in the SNP it is nearly one

third of SNP supporters who want out of the European Union and in the

Labour Party it is a quarter. So there are large blocks of people in

Scotland who are unrepresented by the parties they vote for. That is

not very clever. I think what the party leaders should have done is

have greater debate within their own parties. What about Nicola

Sturgeon's point about leading to a second independence referendum? You

could be putting the union you probably want to save by campaigning

for an out road. Not at all. I think if people are worried about

saving the union because of Nicola Sturgeon's sabre rattling, then they

should vote for Scotland to leave the EU because that would bring us

closer together. Iain Murray, on that final point, what are your

views on a second independence referendum? How would it be if there

was Brexit but Scotland voted to stay? I think we should stop talking

about process and why we should be an integral part of the EU. Nicola

Sturgeon is now arguing about -- for a social and economic union when she

was not doing that last year. There is a case for jobs, for growth, for

people's livelihoods. Oral and gas, financial lively -- financial

services, all depend on a strong membership of the EU. Thank you both

very much for joining us. Now, Mr Cameron may say he got

a deal in Brussels last week but in the world of Scottish

politics, we're still waiting for an agreement on a deal that

would underpin the new powers coming Here's Lord Dunlop in the House

of Lords this afternoon. The fiscal framework negotiations

are at a sensitive and critical point. There have been intensive

discussions between the UK and Scottish governments throughout last

week. These have continued over the weekend and today. Significant

progress has been made and while nothing is ever certain, a deal now

seems within reach. Both governments are very conscious of pressing

timetables for both this timetable and the Scottish Parliament to be

able to scrutinise the fiscal framework before the bill reaches

the final and mending stages in this house and also to enable the

Scottish Parliament to consider a legislative consent motion. I have a

great deal of sympathy with the remarks from many members of this

house in relation to the importance of the fiscal framework. It's no

exaggeration to say that without it, this entire legislation will fall

apart. It's the most important part of the Smith settlement and it is

deeply regrettable that here we are at the Parliamentary equivalent of

the 11th hour and we still don't know what it is and what is in it.

Joining me now is our Westminster Correspondent -

The House of Lords earlier today, where are we tonight? The Scotland

Bill is still going through Parliament. It has been passed by

the comments already. This was a chance to discuss further details.

There was frustration that they have not had a chance to scrutinise the

fiscal framework. There is still no deal on that front but there has

been a more optimistic tone in recent days than we had seen in

previous weeks. Behind the scenes, talks have continue today. I

understand there was further, conversations at ministerial level.

John Swinney was down at the Treasury for talks with Greg Hands,

the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. When he came out of those talks he

said there were still significant is used to sort out but crucially, both

sides were saying that progress had been made. I think one important

thing that happened was that George Osborne turned up and try to bridge

some of the gaps. Tomorrow is the second deadline that the MSP 's have

set. So although we have said it before, time really is running out.

As you and I have seen through in the past, often these deals are

often quite finely balanced. If you cannot get one part right, the whole

deal can collapse. But after the pessimism of recent weeks, it sounds

like we are starting to get a more optimistic tone from both sides. It

sounds like some of the issue 's have been solved. Is a deal there

yet? Not quite, but we are getting there. What exactly is happening,

there is a row about the Chief Secretary to the Treasury? MSP is on

the devolution committee will quiz Mr Swinney and the Scottish

Secretary David Mundell. One of the key criticisms of this the

distillation process so far, Alistair Darling made this point in

the Lords, is that it has been behind closed doors. We have a rough

idea of some of the sticking points but when it comes to the minutiae,

we are not sure what the problems. It'll be interesting to see how much

detail we get from John Swinney and David Mundell on what

the sticking points are, whether they have been bridged and whether

we are nearly at the deal or whether there is no prospect of one at all.

One man who will not be talking to MSP 's is Greg Hands, Chief

Secretary to the Treasury. He has led a lot of the negotiations on

behalf of the Scottish Government. He has declined a request to appear

for the finance committee later this week. The committee has asked him to

reconsider I did the key will be doing that. He's that I don't think

he will be doing that. But he will appear before them at some stage. --

I don't think he will be doing that. And you can watch extensive coverage

of the Devolution Committee from 8:30 tomorrow morning on BBC

Scotland's Holyrood Live webpage. Hamish Henderson's songs

are still known internationally, but makers of a new documentary felt

the man himself was in danger Ahead of tomorrow's world premiere

at the Glasgow Film Festival - our arts correspondent

Pauline McLean had a preview. He was a poet, a singer and a

songwriter who, as well as writing his own, gathered songs from around

the country, recording and documenting them and safeguarding

them for future generations. They tell their fault with plenty of

action stop macro but while the songs were safe, the makers of this

film felt that Hamish Henderson himself was in danger of being

forgotten. They searched archive including unseen family film and

spoke to 22 of his closest friends about the man and his music. One of

Hamish's biggest country since the Scottish life was in being involved

in setting up the school of Scottish studies in which contains the last

glimmerings of the oral tradition of Scottish life. So many aspects have

been recorded for posterity and that lives on in the spirit of Celtic

connections, one of the biggest winter festivals in the world for

music. That this down to Hamish in many respects. He was the standard

bearer that allowed that traditional music renaissance in Scotland to

happen. This South African singer shared Hamish Henderson's most

famous song at the opening of the Commonwealth Games. The makers of

Hamish hope their home, which has its world premiere at the Glasgow

film Festival tomorrow, we'll do the same for the songwriter.

I'm now joined by the author and commentator Dr Gerry Hassan

and the health journalist Pennie Taylor.

Good evening to you both. Thanks for joining me. Really interesting

debates in the European Union and the campaign seems well underway. --

interesting debates on the European Union. What you make of the Tory

division and hearing about the 1922 committee meeting this evening and

telling the Prime Minister to go easy on Boris Johnson? It has been a

couple of days of Tory party theatre. Boris Johnson announcing

today that he was for the out campaign, and ill kept secret. And

today when Cameron laid down the fact that he was so wounded and

displeased. This is part of a long-running set of this years.

Cameron said a few years ago that he wasn't going to bang on about

Europe. -- a long-running set of cracks. Even if this is a win, it be

a countdown to the end of David Cameron. He has stuck himself with

this. He made an interesting point, he said I'm not up for re-election,

a pointed reference to Boris Johnson. Basically saying that the

man is out for themselves. I read the Telegraph today where Boris

Johnson was saying his piece to the captive audience, the readership of

the Daily Telegraph, where he appeared to be aligning himself to

Winston Churchill and knocking Brussels as being a representative

of a nanny state, which for a man of his background, would have been

rather comforting, I would have thought! Labour, speaking to Ian

Murray and hearing his argument, where have Labour been in this

argument? Jeremy Corbyn added a rough ride in the Commons. He days,

and Jeremy Corbyn has not been a front line politician. Pupils at the

wrong moment at -- and when he said he had gone to Brussels. And allow

the Tories to jump in and save and they ask who are you? There's an

absent Labour agenda on social Europe. As the commentator was

saying earlier, is give the SNP a big chance. Very few Labour people,

maybe only a couple of Labour MPs have gone for the out campaign, but

there is and absence of a powerful Labour campaign and agenda. Penny,

Kate Hoey is making the point that there is a left-wing argument for

leaving but we don't hear that so much in this debate? Maybe it is a

Labour tactic to leave it as a fight between Tories and Tories in the

south of England, because it strikes me that this feels very distant from

the political scene in Scotland. It will be interesting to see how it

unfolds over the next few months. Right now, it seems to be something

that is happening down there. An interesting point, perhaps the

conversation will be different in Scotland. Brian Monteith was saying

that there was a democratic deficit, people in Scotland don't have a

choice because the main parties support staying in. That is right,

but Penny is right as well. UK electoral contests often feel in

Scotland because they are happening elsewhere because of Tory England

and because we are in a union of 65 million people. England has become a

Eurosceptic country and Scotland has more and more become a European

country. And our polling shows that about Scotland. But the problem we

have is that the European Union, the kind that the Scots want, maybe is

not on offer in Europe and certainly is not on offer on the ballot paper

because we have two versions of Euroscepticism. It is somebody

else's debate. Is very great love of the European Union in Scotland as an

institution? Is it something that people don't have an emotional

attachment to? I think perhaps there is a greater emotional attachment to

Europe in Scotland. The vote will tell that. But interestingly, in the

Telegraph today, Boris Johnson seems to be indicating that he didn't

think there would be much different between the way England and Scotland

vote over this. I think he is wrong. But time will tell. Just before we

go, I want to pick up, there will be a new newspaper launch called The

New Day. What you make of that? At a time when the Independent has closed

its print division. It does seem quite a risky venture, but it is

possible for new titles when you have very little journalistic costs,

the National being a success there. It daring enterprise. As a

journalist, I like to see the launch of a new newspaper. I'm sceptical

about its target market. It strikes me that it is going to be aiming at

a female market. Personally, as a woman, I would rather see a lots

more investigative journalism, which is expensive journalism, then happy

stories pulled from the wire. -- than happy stories pulled from the

wires. Thank you very much. Shelley will be back

at the same time tomorrow. From all of us on the programme,

have a good night. Bye for now. Join Steve Backshall

on the top of a lost world. I've kept what happened to me

buried away for 50 years. I only want to know

if he's all right. My guess is that Anthony was adopted

and sent to America. She's spent her whole life

trying to find him. I just want to talk to you

about my son. He was taken from me and I've been

looking for him ever since.