05/04/2016 Scotland 2016

In five weeks' time, Scotland goes to the polls. It is already shaping

up to be the tax and spend election. The Scottish parliament will have by

this time next year the ability to set income tax rates and bands.

Tonight our studio will have the chance to grill the six main parties

about how they will use these new powers. For Labour we have Iain

Gray. Maggie Chapman is here for the Greens. Alex Cole-Hamilton for the

Liberal Democrats. For the SNP, John Swinney. Murdo Fraser is here for

the Conservatives and from Ukip, David Coburn.

Hello and welcome. Let's get cracking with our first question,

which comes from Brian Ellison. What would you like to ask the panel?

The UK government and the current taxation system encourages companies

and wealthy individuals to stash their money in offshore tax havens,

which is why an increasing number of working taxpaying families are

resorting to food banks to make ends meet. Given the recent revelations

from the Panama Papers, how would your party addressed this growing

inequality and bring about the tax Justice revolution that so many are

calling for? OK, couldn't be more timely, the

Panama Papers, the huge leak of documents has lifted the lid on how

individuals use tax havens to hide their wealth. John Swinney, what

with the SNP do to address the growing inequality in Scotland? To

answer the question directly, in the last parliament we had to set up a

new tax regime, tax powers were devolved to the Scottish parliament

and we had to put in place arrangements to collect that tax and

one of the things I put into legislation is a general

anti-avoidance rule in relation to taxation. I said to parliament that

I wanted to establish the highest standard that would attack tax

avoidance, which would be hoping to stop it. I said to my colleagues in

other parties that I would before the proposal and if they felt it

could be made stronger I would accept amendments. The Parliament

has passed what has been seen internationally as one of the

strongest and toughest sets of tax instruments to tackle tax avoidance.

And the heart of that is a taste of what is called artificiality, which

if you turn it into common language, if you're at it in your tax

arrangements, then our rule will see through it and we will pursue people

for that. We have already established in the parliament the

strongest approach we possibly can to tax avoidance and making sure

that people pay their tax but it will run through all of the

arrangements we put in place to ensure that tax collection, the kind

of all fullness we have heard from the Panama revelations over the last

couple of days cannot in any way be seen as accessible or tolerable

within the tax system we have -- awfulness. Murdo Fraser, do you

think that the Conservative government in Westminster has done

enough to tighten up on this? I think there is always more that

governments can do but this government has done more than any

previous government in terms of crackdown on tax evasion and

avoidance. David Cameron has made it a personal crusade to go to

otherworldly this to say, come with us and work. You have to work on an

international basis if you're going to crackdown on this happening. You

can't do it alone, you need cooperation and treaties. To address

Diana's point directly, the reform we have seen since 2010, since David

Cameron was elected in terms of tax, is to help those at the lowest end,

doubling the threshold at which you start paying tax. In 2010 it was

?6,000 and it is going up to nearly ?12,000. What that has done, it

means that there are nearly 250,000 Scots who pay no tax at all now. Low

paid Scots have been lifted out of tax altogether. That has been the

most significant reform under a Conservative foreign minister,

showing that those at the bottom are getting the help they need from a

Conservative government. David Cockburn, what would Ukip do to try

and reduce the gap in wealth inequality? We need to bring up

Europe and getting out of the European Union might help.

Luxembourg... This is the Scottish election. That is important. Let's

talk about the new powers coming to Scotland. We have to tighten up

across Europe and the European Union has encouraged a lot of big

corporations paying their tax whether they want to, which has been

disastrous. It means that some companies who make a lot of money in

this country are paying very little tax. We need to make sure that the

laws fit it and that is something we have to tighten up on. Let me bring

in Alen Halilovic, in the audience, who is a carer and I believe you

have a point about care inequality. How can it be fair to tax low paid

workers in Scotland more than the rest of the UK?

The key debate in this election is how we stop austerity cuts and

Labour would like to use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to stop

those cuts. You are proposing an extra penny? We have suggested a tax

plan which means nobody earning less than ?20,000 would pay a penny more

tax than they do today and if you look at our replacement for the

council tax, they would be several hundred pounds better off in the

year. The question from Diana was about those at the top end, those

who have the most and I think the biggest thing we have to do is to

refuse to accept the idea that if you are rich, somehow paying tax is

an option. John talked about the tax avoidance measures in the Scottish

Parliament. We supported them and they are stronger than in the UK.

What I don't understand, we have suggested that the top 1% in

Scotland earning over ?150,000 should pay more, they should pay a

50p tax rate. John has opposed it because, he says, they wouldn't like

it and they wouldn't pay it. The first thing we have to do is to stop

accepting this idea that if you have a lot of money, somehow paying your

tax is an option. We would introduce tax measures which would make sure

that those at the top would pay more, and that is the way we can

stop the austerity cuts, the price of which is being paid every day by

those at the bottom. We will move on in a moment to talk about the top

rate of tax but on the extra penny on the basic rate, Alex

Cole-Hamilton, that is something that the Lib Dems are proposing, is

it fair? It doesn't sound like a tax Justice revolution, as Diana was

suggesting. Going back to that revolution, and it is great to hear

a sinner repenting on the issue of the tax threshold because this is a

policy... The Liberal Democrats had to fight to get the Tories to adopt

it and I'm glad we did, doing more to address poverty than in 13 years

of Labour government. It gives us a space where putting eight penny on

income tax on all bands in Scotland is more progressive than it would be

-- a penny. If you earn ?15,000, by any stretch, that isn't even a

median income, it is low, you would benefit to the tune of ?825 a year

better off as a result of the tax threshold. Putting an increase of 1p

on all bands Woods the youth giving ?25 of that -- would see you giving

?25. We want to invest that in a revolution in education which is the

way out of inequality in our society. We have a real education

crisis. The OECD said that Scotland used to be held up as a world leader

in terms of delivery of education but we are slipping down the league

tables and we have done so every year. They say that there is a

relative and absolute indicator showing that when we were at the

top, we are now somewhere around average and that is not acceptable.

This is a very interesting account of the OECD. Let me finish, I'm

going to tell you what we will do, three things without money. That

?470 million transformational investment in education. We want to

go early, we want to make sure that the payment cap doesn't start by

investing in nurseries, we want a pupil premium for the most deprived

children so that the money follows them into their places of education

and finally, because this is iniquitous in the hands of the SNP,

we will reverse the loss of 152,000 further education college places. I

would like to bring in Maggie Chapman here. I need to hear from

Maggie Chapman. Obviously the Green party are the only party promising

to cut income tax for people earning under ?26,500. Are you having to

hammer the rich to do that? I think that the Scottish Greens are the

only ones here who have truly radical and transformative tax

proposals. Our package of proposals are designed to do exactly as you

say, not only raising money to defend and improve the public

services that we rely on everyday, but also tackling inequality. That

has to be part of what we use tax to do. Scotland is a wealthy country

and it is an obscenity that people are forced to using food banks and

things like that when we know that we have the wealth to feed and house

all of our people. To go to Alan's point about having to pay more tax

for the lowest income earners, absolutely know, that isn't fair, it

isn't progressive and that is why anybody earning under ?26,000 or

less would pay less tax under the Scottish Greens's proposals. What do

you make of that? People on Labour were on the TV

talking about this ?100 rebate every night, trying to convince us, that

it is counterbalancing it with the extra penny but was it a myth to

start with? It was kicked into touch... You spent a long time,

Iain, promising that there would be way ?100 rebate so that people would

not be worse off and you have reversed it in the first week of the

campaign. A terrible betrayal of the people. Let him answer that. I will

tell you what the betrayal is, that is part of a proposal for this

year's budget in which we suggested a 1p increase and the protection

using the rebate. You know what the betrayal was? John Swinney and his

colleagues voted it down and instead pushed through ?500 million of cuts

to local communities. That's where the betrayal lies, the proposals we

have for next year and the years after will ensure, as I said, Alan,

that nobody earning less than ?20,000 will pay a penny more than

they do today. And that's right. APPLAUSE

People on low incomes have gone into the hands of George Osborne, you

have accepted that he is the man who is protecting low income households

and you want to put up taxes for these individuals. These people's

incomes are under such enormous stress and you are putting them into

the hands of no protection from George Osborne. I'm going to move

on. If you talk over each other... If you talk over each other, nobody

will hear anything. We want to move onto the next question. A 15 billion

black hole, all of the other parties are bidding to get your vote,

offering you bribes for your vote. Don't believe any of it, they are

shuffling around deckchairs on the Titanic. They don't address the 15

billion back hole. -- black hole. The SNP's land grab, that is where

the money is going to come from. I am going to move on. Mugabe's land

reform proposals are nothing... David Coburn, you have had your

chance. Second question, I would like to take. What is your question

for the politicians? Should the top rate of tax be raised to 50 p higher

to supplement our policies. At the moment, the top rate of tax for

people earning over ?150,000 is 45p. You support a 50p rate, what is to

stop people moving to other parts of the UK to stop paying that upper

rate? This suggestion that if we raise the top rate of tax, all these

people will up sticks lock stock and barrel and moved to London... Nobody

says all of them. Maybe 7%. I do not accept that argument. I have heard

it for years from Tories. I'm surprised he it from the SNP. A year

ago John Swinney supported the 50p tax rate and he does not now. I

think the top 1% should pay more. And I tell you what we would use it

for. We would use it for our fair start fund, funding which would

close the attainment gap in our schools, and drive a better prospect

for our children and grandchildren, but also

better economic prospects for this country in the future. I think that

is a worthwhile thing to do. I do not understand why John and Nicola

Sturgeon supported it a year ago and now they do not. 20 countries in the

OECD have a top rate higher than 45 p. It seems to work for them. That

includes countries like Denmark and Finland who they say we should

aspire to emulate. Let's start by making sure that those at the very

top pay their fair share. APPLAUSE

There seems to be a huge focus on the additional rate taxpayers.

There is a view points to mention. Firstly, there are only 14,000

people in the whole of Scotland that pay the additional rate of tax.

17,000 is a figure that has been mentioned. But not a lots, you are

right. Secondly, the Labour government introduced the additional

rate in 2009-10, and the results of that was huge tax avoidance. People

who are the chief executives of large corporations can control when

they take their income. You think it would lead to tax avoidance? I think

it would. The Green Party supports 60p tax rate. Surely people are even

more likely to change their behaviour? It is a small number of

people who would be affected on income over 150,000. The amount they

contribute is quite large, if they take all their money away? Let's

look at this. If somebody decides not to pay, or to leave Scotland

because they do not want to take that high rate of tax, they do not

take that job with them. But money remains in the Scottish economy.

Wealth does not seep from the skin of rich people. It is therein our

economy, it is created by all of us. In Aberdeen, for instance, if the

principle of a university was to up sticks because he did not want to

pay 60p in the pound on earnings over ?150,000, Aberdeen University

is not going anywhere. That job would still exist in Scotland. Many

people who can afford to pay a bit more tax are willing to do so

because it is about providing public services that we all rely on and

ensuring we tackle inequality. We know in a quality is tearing our

country apart. We know just for those at the bottom of

the scale, but inequality is bad for everyone and that is what our 60p

rate is there to address. I would like to take a point from the man in

the back row. There is a broad range of opinion about tax avoidance at

the top level., delivered two particular points. One is about

Murdo Fraser and his rather disingenuous statement that David

Cameron is doing everything in his power. Can I ask him to tell David

Cameron to close the doors on all the British protectorate so that

money can come back to us. Can we keep to the upper rate of tax if you

don't mind? I'm sorry, Shelley. The other thing you mentioned about

people in education and attainment. I work in education. Those guys are

busting their gut day in, day out. This is the holiday time. They

should have two weeks holiday. I know they are all in there. They are

punching above their weight. They are producing wonderful results with

very, very little, and the political interference into how that tax money

is spent is creating no end of difficulty. That is where you need

to look at the solution. Where are the Lib Dems at the moment about

increasing the operator tax? Just pay tribute to your colleagues, I

think our education sector in Scotland is served by people who

have providing and delivering milk -- miracles who are on their knees.

We are not ideological opposed to making the wealthiest pay more, this

has to be evidence -based. We are committed to increasing the top rate

of tax to 46p... The SNP is already quoting evidence here. You have seen

that evidence. Is that enough to make you think there would be

flight? What happens with the tax policy we are proposing I would rule

it out for this election because we will not have this bedding in

evidence that we will see from our policy in action, but we need that

investment. It is a gamble to assume we will definitely get money in from

that. Let's go for the guaranteed ?475 million investment in nurseries

and pupil premium and in reversing 152,000 college sector cuts. OK,

John Swinney, you are worried people might change their behaviour and

move their money and home if there was a 50p tax rate, but the evidence

you have looked at, you have quoted the most conservative estimate, you

could gain ?110 million more a year. Isn't it worth a shot? I think what

has got to be borne in mind is at the heart of our proposals is a

requirement on the people who are paying the higher rate of taxation,

to pay more and that would be ?200 billion of additional revenue that

would be generated to invest in public services as a consequence.

You said nobody would pay more income tax and now you're saying it

would raise ?1 billion and another billion from council tax. It cannot

be the case that it means nobody pays more tax but it raises more

money. It is a simple statement that as a consequence of the decisions we

have taken, as a consequence on the decisions on tax, we will generate

?2 billion more revenue to invest in public services. That comes from

changing the higher rate of taxation, the thresholds on taxation

for higher rate taxpayers. That is the proposals we are bringing

forward. On the additional rate of taxation which has been raised, we

have published analysis, we have been entirely open about this. If

just 7% of additional rate taxpayers were to change their tax

arrangements, and they were to pay no tax into the public finances of

Scotland, we would lose up to ?30 million and raised nothing

additional in taxation. Why'd you think they would want to pay a

little bit more? Why did you think people might want to pay a little

bit more to do their share? When you look at any aspect of taxation, you

have to consider the behavioural impact of the decisions you take.

That is part of the analysis government has to go through on a

systematic basis. We have done that on the additional rate and what it

says to us is there is a danger that if up to 7% of those additional rate

taxpayers were to change their tax arrangements, we could actually lose

money. As the finance minister, I have to be certain that we can raise

the money, and allocate to the public expenditure and public

services. I have no intention of short-changing our hospitals or our

education system, as a consequence of the decisions we make. They must

be soundly based in the evidence we have available to us. Let's hear

from the man at the back. In this election, credibility and trust will

be a big issue. Why should the Scottish voters trust the Liberal

Democrats with tax policies, knowing that credibility and trust will be a

key principle in the vote? It is at the heart of everything we stand

for. Education is the key, it is a social leveller. As liberals we

believe everyone has the right to make the most of their God-given

skills. We need to invest in the early years, the attainment gap

becomes so wide by the time they get to primary school. Having money

follow them and having a guaranteed college place. David Coburn, would

Ukip use any of the new powers coming to the Scottish Parliament to

raise or cut taxes? No, we believe taxes should not be higher than any

other part of the UK. To do so would be economic suicide for Scotland. No

one will sit here and be plucked. They will go or they will move their

domicile, and then you will have to raise taxes even further to pay for

the whole that creates. It is a dog chasing its own tail. There is no

sense in this whatsoever. We need to keep taxes the same as the rest of

the UK. I don't see why ordinary Scottish working people should pay

more for the privilege of living in Scotland. It is utterly ridiculous.

I also believe it could be the end of the Scottish economy. People will

not sit here, they will move. Murdo Fraser, you do not want to see an

increase in the upper rate of tax. There is support, according to a

poll, suggesting there is support for a 50p top rate of tax. RU out of

line here? People are asked to you on to pay more tax yourself, based

deliberate tend to say no. If they say should other people pay more

tax, they say yes. I think John Swinney and I would tend to be in

agreement. As the gentleman in the front said, something like only

17,000 higher rate additional taxpayers in Scotland. Though 17,000

contributed nearly 14% of the total tax. It does not take many of them

to change their behaviour and we would lose money. There is a danger

some of them would go. Everybody on the side to the right of me on this

panel wants to take more money out of the pockets of hard-working

Scots. I think that sends a very bad signal about Scotland as a place to

live, work and bring up a family. John Swinney says, for example, he

wants to cut Air Passenger Duty. We think there is money to be found for

keeping taxes low in Scotland. We think they should be targeted at

people who are middle earners. Police officers who are caught -- a

third of these offices are caught by the 40p tax rate, a quarter of

teachers, a 10th of nurses. Give the money to the hard working people. I

would like to bring in Stephen Hay who is head of tax for Scotland for

the accounting firm RSM. What do you make of the discussion we have

heard? It is an interesting debate. We have talked about the flight of

people earning the higher rate. People can leave the UK, that is

true for a 5% increase, but it are unlikely I think. Most of those

people could take the dividend instead of taking an increase their

salary. You do not have to the UK. Those who can, will. The 50p tax

rate will probably bring in something in the region of ?120

million to the country. That is not the issue. I think the issue goes

further down. Where are we going to get the tax that we need? It will

not be from a 50p tax rate. Where will it be from in your view? We

have not discussed thresholds at all in rate bands. The Greens have made

that proposal. You must look at the different rate bands and applying

different rates of tax, because that will be the fairer way, I think. If

you look at the OECD, there is something like 34 countries and

almost all of them have four or more bands. We have three and I think it

is very rigid and I think we need to move out of that and go into a

three, four or five band country for Scotland, to make it fairer, that

those who have got the cash can pay a bit more, including the 50p tax.

APPLAUSE Any more thoughts from the audience?

The majority of the country do not earn that sort of money, what tax

are we going to pay and how will it affect us on our level? That is the

absolute commitment we are giving in this election. For basic rate

taxpayers, we will not increase the rate of taxation unlike the Labour

Party. This gentleman has asked for clarity and I am giving him absolute

clarity that the SNP will guarantee the basic rate of income tax will

not rise during the course of the next Parliament, if we are lucky

enough to be the government collected an 5th of May. You and I

both sat on the Smith Commission together, talking about increasing

tax and decreasing tax and I don't understand why you're not prepared

to use that. To answer your question, under the Scottish Greens

proposals, if you went 26,000 ?500 a year, you will pay less tax on that,

because we are going to you reduce the lowest band by 2% so the 20%

comes down to 18% -- 20 ?6,500. Half of income tax earners in Scotland

will pay less tax under the Scottish Greens proposals.

It sends out a message that Scotland is closed for business. You will get

less of a tax take. It is a dog chasing its tail. The next question,

thank you, which is from Russell, who is the director of the think

tank, IPPR Scotland. Our analysis shows that the largest

tax rises on offer from the political parties so far will be

dwarfed by the public spending and benefits cuts coming to Scotland

over the coming years. Head of the election, will you outline where the

axe will fall, and equally which cuts your party will support. --

head of the election. Where will the axe fall? For us, the

election is a about using the new powers we have, that Maggie spoke

about, that she and I and John sat on the Smith Commission and decided

to use them to stop the austerity cuts and to allow us to start

investing again in services, education and local services. Our

calculation is that our tax plan, in the round, including raising money

from the 50p tax rate and I thought it was interesting that an expert

suggested I would raise ?120 million, which is more than we have

estimated. We have been less optimistic about it but we can give

a prediction that the education budget will grow year-on-year, the

health service but it will be protected and we can begin to invest

in those services which we have seen hit so badly by austerity cuts. The

people who have paid the price of those cuts over the last three

years. Russell's point in their analysis is that even the tax

increases you are suggesting is not going to be enough, that you will

have to make cuts over the next few years. Our calculation is that the

tax plan will allow us to spend some ?3 billion more over the next few

years than four example the SNP's plans and we believe that will allow

us to protect those services and at the heart of that, education budgets

because therein lies the future of our country. OK, Murdo Fraser, the

Scottish Conservatives have said that they will pitch free

prescriptions, free to wish on fees, is that going to be enough or is the

axe going to have to fall elsewhere? There is another proposal. We

recognise that there are difficult decisions. We would not scrap air

passenger duty because we don't think that the industry deserves a

tax break when there are public sector cuts. We would support an

increase on council tax, not on bands E and F, but he and H, the

largest properties, allowing tax to go up 3% a year because we think

that a nine-year council tax freeze has had its day and it's time for

local governments to get more money. We will say that those with the

broadest shoulders should make more contribution. It is a disgrace that

if you come from a disadvantaged background you are half as likely to

go to Scottish university as if -- to go to university compared to a

viewer in England. The reason is that they have much better funded

bursaries in England and we think the better way to deal with this is

to introduce a graduate contribution, ?6,000 from graduates.

By doing that, we can support disadvantaged students from the

poorest backgrounds who are being failed by the system but that is a

difficult choice to make, some people don't bike that idea and feel

that people should make that contribution -- don't like that

idea. We think that those who are the most disadvantaged should get

the foothold that those in England have that we don't have in Scotland.

To hear the Conservatives talking about the broadest shoulders

carrying the country when Ruth Davidson said that George Osborne's

budget was the right thing to do, the increasing of the top rate

bands, thresholds, the tax cuts... We have improved the UK economy. One

at a time. Ruth Davidson said that was exactly the right thing to do.

You should be chained. -- shamed. There may be a big hole in the

finances over the next few years? Do you take issue with their analysis?

There are some difficult decisions to take and we are taking that

decision by increasing income tax. It might not be popular with some

people but it is the thing to do. Some glaziers in Alaska have moved

further and faster to deal with austerity than the SNP have done in

this Parliament. Now we are to believe that there is some magic way

to get ?2 billion of unaccounted for money to fill the gap. John has done

some fancy footwork of avoiding where the money is coming from. The

penny on income tax will pay for ?2.5 billion worth of spending but

he says we won't have to put up spending at all, so where is the

money coming from, John? A combination of the decision of the

recommendation of the SNP government that we will not increase the

threshold on higher rate taxpayers as is proposed by the UK government.

Wait a second, let me answer. Also by the changes that we are making in

council tax that will enable us to invest ?750 million of additional

money in education to support the attainment of young people and the

school system within Scotland. What the wider proposals of the SNP

government have been about over the last few years is about ensuring we

will protect public services. Allen made a comment about the actions we

have made the point about protecting people, went the Lib Dems were

voting to axe welfare expenditure and I was picking up the pieces to

support the Scottish welfare system. Assistance for individuals when

their council tax was cut, the council tax benefit was cut by the

Lib Dems. There are difficult decisions ahead, where would the axe

fall? Are you going to be honest with the voters about what's going

to happen over the next few years? Over the last nine years, unlike

anybody else, I have had to live within my means, I have set a budget

which has set out how we would support public expenditure which has

given a real terms increase for the health service, an increase in the

future and we have said we will guarantee the police budget, that it

would rise in real terms and I have set out the commitments on

education, ?750 million invested directly in education support. These

are common than is that people can expect priorities from the SNP

government, investing in public services within Scotland. I would

like to take a couple of points from the audience.

The problem we have in this country is that we are living off the money

we get from George Osborne and the sooner we get independent and raise

our own funds the better, we will eradicate the problems we have with

poverty. And with the red tie?

Over the next five years, the grant coming from London to Scotland is

going to be squeezed, very hard. Can you go on attracting large parts of

the public spending such as the health service and schools?

David Coburn? We wouldn't spend a lot of money, number one, an

enormous amount on the ludicrous and authoritarian named person act,

which is not only the most illiberal piece of legislation I have ever

heard, it is very expensive. That isn't going to save a lot, is it?

Townhall fat cats in Glasgow, over ?150,000 a year, and many earning

over 100,000. We would cut bureaucracy in the NHS and make sure

it is targeted towards the front end of the operation. We would ditch the

?55 billion -- 50 ?5 million a day we are spending, squandering come on

the EU. We would repatriate it to the country. We will not be paying

for EU students studying in Scotland. That is just a starter,

the rest of these people, as I have said, they are bidding for your vote

on imaginary promises and they will never be able to fulfil them. It is

all nonsense. The point the gentleman made about the key being

reformed. If you look at what we did in the budget proposals this year,

we have invested in social care integration so that services can

deliver the needs of individuals. We have invested the money to create a

more sustainable service. I accept that sometimes you have to invest to

create more effective services that meet the needs of individuals. And

that is precisely what we have done. We are investing in creating the

integrated health and social care system which will make it a more

sustainable service in the long term. It's interesting, if you look

at what George Osborne has done under his ideological austerity

regime, we have seen the privatisation of the NHS in England.

We know that he has announced plans to privatise every school in

England. Nonsense. We don't want Scotland to go in that direction.

What we want is that we use our collective wealth to find the

services that we all rely on every single day, whether it is health,

whether it is education, they are the things that everybody, every

single one of us uses or benefits from and that is what our government

in Scotland should be doing for the people of Scotland. And the 50

billion black Cole, what will you do about that? I haven't heard an

answer to my question, which parts of the budget are going to be

protected and which bits are going to have to be cut even more deeply

to allow them to be protected? Let's see if it comes out in the

discussion. The next question is from Catherine McNeil.

I would like to ask the panel what a true form of local taxation would

look like? David Coburn? At the moment I think

a lot of them have started looking towards some kind of local taxation,

income taxation, based on the value of your property. I don't think you

should be punishing for aspiring to better and if that is their idea of

the future, if that is progressive, they use the word all the time, they

abuse it. What do you think is fair? I think we need the system we have

at the moment, we have to try and work with it. I don't think people

object greatly to the system we have now. They object to not getting

value for money. I live in Fife and I have more bins than I know what to

do with and I still don't get my garbage taken away. Do you feel that

people think it is fair that the valuation is 25 years out of date?

No, this will have to be looked into again but they are using it as a

milk cow to rob people again. If you have a nice garden or a nice bit of

extra land, they want to punish you for having it. There has to be an

end to this nonsense about punishing people for doing well or trying to

do well. I would like to see improvement of the services they

have, cutting down on the Townhall fat cats. People in Glasgow City

Council, ?150,000, outrageous. Why don't we deal with that? And the

tramline, nobody uses it, a total waste of money. Iain Gray, what do

you think is a truly fair form of local taxation? We have laid out in

some detail the proposal for our changes to local taxation, and my

view, and I think that Murdo made a similar point, the SNP have broken

local taxation and I believe what we are proposing is fairer because it

is a property tax, at its core, but based on current values, not those

from 1991, leaving nearly 60% of houses in the wrong band. It would

raise the same amount of money that the council tax now but four out of

five households would pay less, so it is more progressive and it would

allow local authorities, if they wished, to use the land value tax on

vacant land because that is a form of property which currently escapes

taxation. And finally, within limits, we would return to local

authorities, local government, local communities and their elected

representatives the power to decide the level at which local taxation

should be set. Because look, this election is about a much more

powerful Scottish Parliament, but power is worthless unless you're

willing to give it away to the people is as close as possible to

where it can actually create benefits and that means ending nine

years of centralisation and factoring of local government.

Maggie Chapman. Actually, the Scottish Greens want to scrap the

council tax. It is outdated and regressive. We should not be

tinkering around the edges with it. We need something radically

different. We know that council tax which is based on values 25 years

old, nobody's house should be taxed on a valuation system that is a

quarter of a century out of date, but we also know that more than half

of all homes or in the wrong tax bands. Not only that, it is not even

a local tax. We have a situation in Scotland were less than 20% of all

tax spent in a local authority area is raised by that area. That is not

right. We have one of the most centralised tax systems in Europe

and that is a legacy from Westminster. What we want to make

sure is to give power back to local people, to communities, to decide

what rates their residential properties should be set at. Then

they can make a judgment about what services they need. It will give

flexibility across Scotland. One side does not fit all. We need local

control back in our system. We need to give people the power to choose

what they want and what they want to prioritise in their area. It is more

of a property tax and as a result of this, year-on-year, we will

re-evaluate this. If my neighbour chooses to install a ground source

heat pump or installation, something you would be keen for us to do, we

will pay more council tax as a result and we will re-evaluate it.

We will scrap the council tax so it is not council tax. We have not

moved away from the Scottish Greens policy of a land finally taxation

but you cannot implement something like that overnight. Our residential

policy taxes a phased thing and it is the first step on the way to land

value taxation. We cannot be in a situation where we overturn a tax

system. That will create too many winners and far too many losers in

our current system. We do not have an up-to-date land register. We do

not even know who owns all of Scotland's land, no matter what

value it is, and that will take a while to do that. Once we have got

that, we can have an annual reassessment file you and tax things

fairly from there. You want to take all the money from people yet again.

That is all you want to do. Pluck people... What will the Liberal

Democrats' plans be? Will they be radical? You would not start from

here as the old joke goes. The SNP fought two elections with the

promise to scrap the council tax, and they have tinkered at the edges.

What about the Liberal Democrats? What are you going to do? We are

going to announce this on Monday, or on the day we announce our manifesto

next week, there was a tremendous amount of good faith which went into

the tax commission and as you know, the Liberals have always been

focused on making local accountability, allowing local

authorities to set their own rates and this will be in our manifesto

going forward. I will come back to the panel in a moment. I want to

bring in Angela O'Hagan who sat on the committee for tax reform. What

do you think of the proposals you have heard so far? Have a fallen

short of what you were hoping for? I think looked we are hearing across

the parties is cherry picking -- what we are hearing. Some come

closer to the spirit of the commission than others. There is

cherry picking of the principles around the return to local

democracy, the ease of administration and fundamentally

recognising the differentials and ability to pay and the factors that

contribute to pay across Scotland. The shying away from revaluation is

a really significant stumbling block to progress on taxation alongside

the return to democratic control and greater autonomy. And the central

recommendation, or one of the central recommendations from the

commission was for a basket of measures taken over a longer period

of time, rather than cherry picking and inevitably, the cherry picking

in the lead-in to the election, where pitfalls have been picked off

to create political argument, rather than respond to the kind of

questions we are hearing about tonight which is tax Justice, tax

transformation, revolution in how we expand our tax base and generate

greater revenue into the longer term. Thank you. Let me put that to

John Swinney. You have come up with new proposals but you have shied

away from a re-evaluation. Think we have answered the challenge that

Angela talked about of essentially recognising that has to be a range

of changes taken forward. We have set out proposals that would see

properties and paying the council tax in bands E and upwards, paying

more in taxation with due protection in place for those on low incomes

who are living on higher value properties will stop. They then take

into account also the move towards a discussion and dialogue with local

government about putting in place a system which gives incentive to

local authorities to support the growth in the tax base in local

areas, which was one of the issues raised with us with the local tax

commission. It is an acknowledgement that we need to take a number of

steps to build on. One or tea was to give back to local authorities

control of over ?2 billion worth of expenditure which was ring-fenced by

the Scottish Government when we came to office, and secondly, to liberate

members of the public from the exorbitant increases in the Council

tax that took place before we to office. We go back to the 2007

election. It was the biggest issue in the election because people were

so frustrated by the way the Labour Party and the Conservatives had

hyped up local taxation. We have given that protection, we are now...

Parliament would not support it. In 2011 we fought the election on a

commitment to engage a debate which we undertook to enable local

authorities and other stakeholders to be involved in a discussion about

the future of local taxes. I will come to Murdo Fraser but let me hear

from some voters. In 2007, it was yourselves and the Tories who locked

the change of council tax. They wanted to change it to local income

taxes. You voted against it in Parliament. Don't raise it with me!

Let's hear from the chap at the back. I want to hear from the man at

the back. Thank you. I am absolutely astonished at John Swinney and the

SNP government's timidity at changing local authority taxation.

Yes, in 2007 they said they would abolish it. They didn't. They

realised a local income tax would be too expensive to add minister and

not raise the cash where it is needed. I notice in your current

proposals that you are proposing to allow some local authorities to keep

parts of the local council tax raised there. Can I just tell you

that some local authorities like Glasgow, Dundee, North Lanarkshire,

have areas of huge need and people in abject poverty and deprivation.

Yet people out with those local authorities, 40% of people working

in Glasgow do not live in Glasgow. They would rather pay the areas of

wealth rather than the areas of need. Their proposals are timid and

quite frankly, regressive. Very briefly, I will let John answer that

point. What we are doing with local taxation is aligning it to people's

ability to pay. Higher value properties would pay more in council

tax than previously. We have also taken steps to enable local

authorities to be able to raise the council tax after nine years of

protecting council taxpayers from the exorbitant increases which have

taken place in previous years. That is us for filling can admit we have

made, two members of the public, supported in the election campaigns

in 2007 and 2011 to deliver that commitment and promise. I need to

bring Murdo Fraser in here. The SNP have been criticised for being too

timid. You're not suggesting anything radical either? I feel

sorry for Angela and the commission. One Keira commendation was that

council tax should be scrapped and that has not happened. -- one key

recommendation. We came up with a set of proposals which are

remarkably similar to the proposals the SNP are now taking forward. What

matters for people of how much money they are paying. I think the council

tax freeze overall has been a good thing. It is protecting the budget

at a time when incomes are not doing well. We think the proposals go too

far. We would not see any increase in bands E and F and a small

increase in bands G and H because we do think the larger properties

should contribute more and we will allow the council is to put up the

rate by up to 3% a year. We think that is moderate and balanced and it

puts more money into government for things like education but it does

not fleece people just because they happen to live in a slightly above

average sized property. There is no direct qualification between the

size of a property and how much wealth individuals have -- no direct

correlation. Some of them who may live in large houses are one month

away from defaulting on their mortgages. David Coburn, let's hear

from the young man who had his hand up. You said the localisation of

council tax back to councils had brought ?1 billion to councils. Why

is it that people like us have had cuts to services which people like

our use? When we came to office in 2007, the decisions were determined

by decisions taken by Scottish ministers. We put that back to the

local authority at their request to give them more flexibility and

control at a local level. In all of the local government settlements I

have presided over, we have done our level best to protect local

authorities Bencic and if you compare the performance of local

authority spending compared with English local authority spending,

local authorities in Scotland have had a much stronger as sustainable

form of funding than English local authorities have had. We have

reduced local authority expenditure by 1%. That is an acknowledgement of

the challenges we faced in the budget in 2016-17, but we are giving

a commitment to invest in the changes we are making to support

education and support other local authority services. Quite a few

people want to get in. I think the gentleman at the back was right. We

have a government paralysed. The SNP revealed taxation policies or taking

a stance which Murdo said made his Tory heart sing. That goes to show

how timid the SNP have been. We are running short of time. I would like

to hear from the lady in red. You said earlier that the SNP stand up

for Scotland so why are they not standing up for Scotland's

schoolchildren, when we are losing 4000 teachers a year when it is a

result of your policies? The man in the back row with the striped

T-shirt. You say have been aggressive in the last year.

Children in poverty has gone up -- you said you have been progressive.

How is that being progressive? I think when you talk about local

spend tax, you are not bearing in mind the state of democracy at a

local level. Effectively, you have an elected dictatorship as you often

have at national level. When it comes to people like myself and our

families, carers and people with disabilities, you are in such a tiny

minority that they can effectively fob you off with hundreds of

bureaucrats over years and in some cases decades. Your ability to

actually access anything that we are supposedly paying for, and this is

predated 2008, is extremely limited. Can I add one more point? I agree

with the four or five bands of taxation because that is there.

Thank you so much for your contributions. That is it for our

special debate. Thank you very much to our panel, the studio audience

and to you at home watching. We will be doing it again next Tuesday, this

time on the subject of help. If you want to be in the audience, go to

the Scotland 2016 online page where you can apply. Goodbye.

Scotland's identity, culture and voice were fast disappearing.

The 20th century was not distinctively Scottish.

But a small army of writers were fighting to revive it.

He wants to stir things up, and he wants people to read more widely.