19/05/2016 Scotland 2016

The Scottish government mess that could cost

Thousands of farmers are out of pocket because of

a poorly-managed IT system, according to Audit Scotland.

And with five weeks to go til the EU referendum,

we hear from the expat Scots living in Spain.

Yesterday, the Rural Affairs Secretary Richard

Today, an Audit Scotland report slammed Scottish

government mismanagement of EU subsidies to farmers.

It couldn't have been more scathing about the litany of failure.

A new IT system months behind schedule and so over budget it may

actually run out of money before the end of the payment programme.

In a moment we'll hear from the Deputy First

But first, our Business Correspondent, David Henderson.

Farmers the length and breadth of Scotland, from there to Lockerbie,

have had it difficult year. European subsidies have been delayed because

of problems with the new farm payment scheme. If you to getting

paid in December and you do not get that until April or May in some

cases, some people have not yet received anything, it is quite

stressful that way. If farmers do not get paid the whole supply chain

does not get paid and outside work does not happen and fences did not

get sorted, the whole infrastructure of the rural community has virtually

ground to a halt. At this office in Edinburgh, the Scottish government

has developed a computer system to process those payments. More than 18

months ago, this man said it began to go badly wrong. I sent an e-mail

immediately to Nicola Sturgeon and Richard Lochhead, the agricultural

Minister, to say, are you aware of what is going on? John Dunning was

working on the project and he says dozens of competent workers are

being laid off for no apparent reason and he says when he blew the

whistle, some inside the team were not impressed. The main thing I

received about why it was pressure to shut up. They wanted this silent.

They wanted me on one side and kept quiet. Among the issues he says he

raised concerns about a conflict-of-interest involving a

contract on the programme. He became delivery director of the major role

in recruiting staff but he also supplied workers to the project

through his own company. And accounts seen by the BBC show that

his assets have soared by about ?3 million in one year. It is always

important when public money is used and conflicts need to be recognised

as quickly as possible and the conflict was known about by the

safeguards were not strong enough to make sure the person could not

influence recruitment decisions. Farmers leaders are not impressed,

they want urgent action from the new Scottish government. With Richard

Lochhead stepping down as agriculture Secretary, his

successor, Fergus Ewing, as a challenge. To put things right.

Well, no-one from the Scottish Government was available to come

on the programme, but earlier today our reporter Andrew Black

managed to speak to the Deputy First Minister.

Audit Scotland has a Dead Fred problems with the way this scheme

operates and what is the government response? The government has worked

hard to address these issues given the fact that we had to undertake

but obligation to the European Union every complex reform of the support

system. When it became clear that we were not going to be able to make

all those payments through the computer system, we have 82% made

through the system, we put in place other schemes to support farmers and

provide the necessary assistance they required at a very challenging

time. One of the things the report identified was a significant failure

to deal with a major conflict-of-interest within the

management of the programme. How do you respond? We identified, thanks

to the advice of a whistle-blower, that there was this potential

conflict of interest and be put in place revised arrangements to make

sure that did not arise and that conflict of interest was addressed.

Whenever we were made aware of this issue, we acted to remedy that

issue. The report makes clear that the problem was brought to the

attention of the government in 2014 by a whistle-blower three months,

less than three months before the Scottish government did anything.

Why so slow? The government got that information and we acted upon it to

put arrangements in place to tackle the circumstances that arose. We put

in place different management arrangements to address that this

year and that was in response to the helpful advice given to us by a

whistle-blower on this case. The fundamental issue is about the

requirements that are placed on contractors which are not as

obligatory as the obligations we put on our staff and that is an issue

the government asked to investigate and consider.

John Swinney speaking to Andrew Black earlier today.

Listening to that in our Aberdeen studio is the newly-elected

Conservative MSP, Peter Chapman, who was today announced

as the party's rural economy spokesman.

Good evening. First, on that issue of the conflict-of-interest, do you

accept that there was little they could have done differently because

of the rules governing contractors? I certainly do not accept that. This

is a shocking report and this conflict-of-interest is one of the

worst parts of the report. When the first whistle-blower drew attention

to what was going on, it was several months before anything happened

regarding Best Director and he was still supplying staff months after

the whistle was blown. The staff that he was playing or on inflated

wages, well above the level set for the structure within this programme.

There is a scandal going on and it is a litany of failures. One of the

worst reports that we have ever seen in Scotland. An absolutely shocking

report. A litany of failures, not just the conflict-of-interest, there

was mismanagement, there was infighting between those teams, it

was a programme that was completely out of control for many months and

it would appear that Richard Lochhead and the SNP government did

very little over a long period of time while this was going on to

address the problems. Do you think the blame lies at the door of

Richard Lochhead? Absolutely, he was in charge, the buck stops with him

and it is a disgrace what has happened here. On the broader point

of these late payments, John Swinney says as soon as it became clear they

were going to be late, they acted swiftly to provide financial

assistance. Do you think they should have done more? Of course they

should have. They did not act swiftly. The farming industry

expected the bulk of payments to be made in December and Richard

Lochhead promised the bulk of them would be made in December but when

we got to April and were in me, and still some farmers have received

very little or nothing, and none of the farmers have received more than

80% of the money they are due. There is a huge issue, there is a mess to

be sorted out. It is not just Scotland's struggling with these

payments, is it? Isn't the real issue the complexity of what has

been asked of governments by the European Union? Not at all. It has

nothing to do with the complexity. This report says nothing about the

complexity. It highlights the shortcomings within the system, the

mismanagement within the system and it says nothing about the

complexity. The complexity was agreed between the industry and

government more than two years ago. There was ample time to put in place

a system to pay the money if the system had been managed properly. We

should have been no problems, there was ample time but there has been a

litany of failures throughout the whole thing. We must leave it. Thank

you. In just five weeks the UK will vote

whether to leave or remain Much of the debate so far has been

about migration into the UK. But what about the estimated

two million UK citizens who live As many as one million

in Spain alone. We sent our reporter, Ian Hamilton,

to the Med to take the temperature on how a potential Brexit

may impact them. I have come to Spain on the Costa

Del Sol... An area that has been invaded throughout history by

different people. From the Roman and Byzantine empires too busy Goths and

Arabs. The lead, as were the British. They started to arrive in

the 1960s. -- be late comers. To enjoy a cheap lifestyle in the

wonderful climate of the South of Spain. I have come to the coast of

poor Billy Dodds, synonymous with tourism in the 1970s and 80s, it

seems to be thriving today. Kennedy of people enjoying the sunshine. --

tourmaline us. Talk radio Europe... Giles Brown. It is exactly five

minutes past... Here in the largest radio language -- Hindu shrine which

radio station in Spain, it is a hot topic. The issue has dominated the

shows that we do, the expat community, very large, the biggest

single issue and as the British Ambassador said, the biggest issue

that perhaps Britain has faced in 150 years and down here on the

coast, with the huge expat publishing, it is dominating their

thoughts. There are around 400,000 registered Britons living in Spain

other could be as many as 1 million unofficially. They originally come

here for the weather. This is a property just outside Fuengirola.

After the economic crash of 2008, any British residents of Spain find

themselves in negative equity. I met an estate agent, originally from

Glasgow, who is based on the Costa Del Sol. The Spanish in general are

happy to have us. And we raise a lot of money over here. We are the

biggest buyers, still, in Spain and I think it is about 22% of the sales

to foreign buyers in Spain that from British people. The people down here

are spending a lot of money, whether they are here all year round whether

these are holiday homes. They get around 5 million visitors

here every year in this town. The wealthy residents of this district

may not have concerns about Brexit, but as three quarters of the British

people living in Spain think, health care is the big thing that people

think about in Spain. In a reciprocal agreement with the UK,

they get free treatment, but should the UK believe the EU this may not

continue. Most of my friends are 70 and above, some of them in the 90s,

and there would be an awful lot of people going back to the UK wanting

health care, wanting homes. My husband has got... He has had a

stroke, has leukaemia, so he is getting all that treatment free. He

pays the minimum for prescriptions. All that with having to be paid for

and taken up by the National health. All of us pensioners over here can

use the Spanish national health, the way that Spanish people can in the

UK. We would lose all those benefits. We get the same benefits

as an expat trade in the UK. Bus passes, free travel, health service

and social care, as well. We would lose all of that. The assumption is

that if you live in Spain you have loads of money. You happened. I

pension doesn't even pay my rent. Several people told us that it was

-- they wouldn't differently if they lived in the UK. I don't feel

comfortable with all this immigration, the fact that they are

thinking of including Turkey. That sort of thing. So either British

people living here in Spain not immigrants? That is a very different

matter. There are a lot of us, a great number of us especially dine

here, but we bring money, a lot of money into Spain. Particularly in

this part. I, for example, lived here all the time, I am a resident.

I pay my taxes here. I've spent virtually all of my income here.

Sandy has just look -- just retired to the Costa del Sol. He is

confident that the UK and Spanish government will cut a deal so that

the British can stay on if they leave the EU. The economy would be

brilliant if bold the British people move back home. It is in their own

interest. After 2008 with the crash, if you look at the main spots like

Marv Baer and so on, a lot of the pubs and clubs shot, because the

British, the ones who could afford it, move back to Britain and they

didn't get the same tourist is. They don't want that scenario I can

because that would be ridiculous. This is not just about British

people in Spain. There are around 2 million British citizens living

throughout the EU. Solutions will have to be fined if there is an exit

vote, either with each individual country on the EU as a whole.

Earlier tonight I spoke to two men who have a fair bit of experience

of living and working both in the UK and in other EU countries.

Henry Page, a lawyer who was until recently

in France, and David Clarke from Ireland, who now lives here.

Henry, you heard in the film concerns from Scots living in Spain,

worried about what they might lose if the UK voted to leave the EU. You

have lived and worked in France. He think we should leave. Dealing with

the concerns, I noted a couple. First ball, health care. I would

like to point out that health care goes with residency and not with

nationality. You heard the lady said that she pays her taxes and so on. I

don't think there is any concern on health care. Isn't she worried that

she would not get the same benefits as she would as a British citizen?

That worry is about them that -- without foundation. This is a

question for residents and not nationality. The camp near different

rules but people with different passports. If you are resident in a

country then you get the benefits in that country. There is absolutely no

problem. The second concern was the gentleman who said I am sure there

must be some arrangement to be made with Spain and England to enable us

to stay in Spain. This is an absolute certainty. There is

absolutely no doubt. It was confirmed by the head of the legal

services of the EU Council that the UK citizens in the EU would be

permitted to stay. This is a done deal. There is no question about it.

David, nothing to worry about? I just don't know whether certainty

comes from. There is lots to worry about. How can we say that they will

allow to be residents in Spain still? We just don't know any of

these things. As with all of the food Leave rhetoric, it is based on

conjecture. They don't know what is going to happen. We have millions of

people, millions of Britons living around Europe who are uncertain

about the future because of this vote that is taking place here. We

need to phone Remain to make sure that our citizens living abroad can

benefit from the same things that we benefit from here. I have to

disagree with you. I quoted the former head of the legal services of

the EU Council who confronting categoric terms that nobody resident

in the EU now, no British resident, would be asked to leave in exactly

the same way that no EU resident in Britain will be asked to leave. It

is a stone cold certainty. It is typical of the Remain party to say

that we are grabbing at uncertainties. The situation is the

opposite. We have a clear position. David, you travel regularly between

EU countries for work. How do you think that would change if you were

not from a country within the EU? All of the benefits... I am

obviously from Ireland originally. I was back there at the weekend that

the children, you are Scottish. I bring my EE 111 card which gets me

health care around Europe if anything were to happen. All these

benefits that we almost take for granted, the right to claim your

pension abroad, all of these things are put up in the air by us leaving

the EU. What bothers me is that Hendry says it is OK for the people

that are at there. What about all the young people that haven't had

the benefit? They want to pull up the drawbridge and those younger

people who don't have his opportunities, haven't had the

opportunity to move abroad. That is the unfair thing about it. It is

letting down the younger people who have these opportunities ahead of

them and they will be taken away. The drawbridge is a very interesting

expression. David Cameron and used it. He said that Britain pull up the

drawbridge from Europe. In fact, Britain wants to let down the

drawbridge to the whole world. We will keep our economic activity in

Europe, there is no doubt at all. They need us as us as much as we

need them, in fact they need us more. Have very small proportion of

exports go to the EU and we are not all dependent. Everybody knows that

this is a political argument and not an economic one. Written can survive

perfectly well outside. Do you really think it would be just as

easy to live and work in any of these EU countries where Britain to

leave the EU? There are two different stages. One is the people

who live there already. No problem at all. They can stay, same

benefits. People who want to go and work in the EU will need to

demonstrate, as I did when I first went out, that I had a job offer. I

don't think that is unreasonable if you are going to go and live

permanently in a foreign country. They don't want us to come over and

started against it benefits as an unemployed person, and we don't want

them to do that here. David Cameron wants people to have job offers

before they come in to benefit here. In future, a young person will be

able to go abroad is provided he has a job offer. Of course you can go on

holiday there completely freely as today. If you want to live there

permanently you need to prove you have a job offer. You have seen the

benefit of free movement within the EU, but that doesn't seem to be the

central issue for a lot of voters here. Do you have sympathy with

concerns of those living within the UK about the pressure on public

services, for example, from high levels of immigration? Absolutely.

But we need to separate immigration in general from EU immigration.

There are 2 million Britons living in the rest of the EU. 2 million EU

citizens living in Great Britain. We have been in the EU for 40 years

plus. 2,000 people a year, a large school coming here. It has been

overblown by people who just want us to leave the EU. I understand that

there are pressures on certain areas, but that is a government

thing. Government needs to make sure that they can put the resources

where they are needed. As far as EU immigration is concerned, they

benefit hugely did UK. They put in ?20 billion into the UK economy from

2001 to 2011. They work hard and unlike a lot of British citizens

abroad who are retired, they are contributing to the economy here.

Thank you both very much. With me now to talk about some

of the day's other news is the PR director Andy Maciver,

and the journalist Marianne Taylor. Let's start with your field. Nicola

Sturgeon has called the decision at Muirfield golf club to reject women

members is indefensible and wants to see it overturned. Here is the

club's. So, a majority of members voted for women as members of the

club, but the two thirds majority that we require for a change in the

rules was not met. The club therefore will retain its men only

membership policy. The honourable company is a members club and the

members decide the rules of the club, including its membership

policy. Women will continue to be welcome at Muirfield on the course

and in the clubhouse as guests and visitors are tourists, as they had

been for many years. We have some ladies playing here today. Thank

you. As he said, ladies can still play the, does it matter that they

can't have full membership? I think it is absolutely astonishing and I

don't know any women or any men who would want to be members of

Muirfield. To think that they would rather that they made sure they were

and wholemeal club than have the British open stage is absolutely

astonishing. I have to say, if that is how they feel, if they want the

gentleman is club, if they want that to be the club, all the best of

them. I think women have other things to worry and concern

themselves over. I think they are idiots and if this is how they feel,

leave them to it. I wouldn't want to be a member of the club that would

want me to be a member. Either good reasons in the 21st century for

having a meal on the golf club? I don't think so. Golf has become a

unisex sport. There are clearly more men play, but a lot of girls play

golf now and a lot of the clubs in Scotland are really good at girls

golf. You have to respect the fact that if they want to have met only

in the club, that is fine. There are a lot of women only golf clubs and

gyms in Scotland, and that is up to them. I think it is ridiculous and

it is not a decision I would've made. The Royal and ancient have

done that the right thing by saying if you are doing that then you're

not having the British Open. It is a shame for the British Open because

it is the best venue. The Royal and ancient have made a good decision.

The members of Muirfield and like the British Open because they lose

that course for four weeks every eight years, so there are quite

happy. The bigger picture is at the Royal and ancient has taken a very

big step, of the global ambassadors golf. This will blow over because

Muirfield will change the decision over the next years. Will it? If

they do, they do. If not, then not. We can glean everything about the

outlook in life through this and they are not mainstream club. It is

not per mainstream people, but the Open is a mainstream events so they

are not involved in it, then so be it. Bad news for the local economy.

A lot of money goes into East Lothian. People don't want it to go

to Turnbury because of Donald Trump. It was estimated to be worth ?70

million when it was last in Muirfield. It is not due back to

Muirfield until after 2020 so there is time for this decision to be

reversed. I think it will be, it was only 14 votes. Tomorrow, uniform

packaging rules for tobacco will be introduced after juridical gel --

after a legal challenge. They will need to have olive green packaging

with a large health warning. Will this put people off smoking? From

all the latest research, fewer and fewer young people are smoking,

which is a good thing. The smoking ban has had an impact. I am not sure

this will have any impact on the hard core of smokers. Apparently 20%

smoke still, but among low-income families, low-income areas it is

much higher. I understand that have the unemployed smoke and half of

those who are not in work due to smoke. I am not sure if this will

have any impact on them because what they need is one to one intervention

and I am not sure of changing any of these things will have an impact. I

did stop people starting? I don't think so. I think there is scant

evidence for it. The smoking ban has done a huge amount to stop smoking

but that is a prohibition bank of sorts. I don't think this sort of

thing makes any difference. The biggest impact of the help of

smokers in this country will be e-cigarette. If government wants to

make a big difference to smoking help they should make sure that

e-cigarette are not regulated in the way they are threatening to do

because that could be the biggest benefit to public health.

That's it for tonight and for this week.

I'm back again on Monday night at the usual time.