31/05/2016 Scotland 2016

At the end of his short life, he had 30 injuries on his body.

Inflicted by his mum and her partner.

Could more have been done to save Liam Fee?

As a couple face life in prison, could the government's

new Named Persons scheme help prevent cases like the murder

And the extraordinary rise of the SNP.

Could they have done even better last month if they'd ruled out

In Liam Fee's short life, concerns about his care were raised

with the authorities no less than three times.

On two occasions, this led to meetings about the toddler

Why not will now be the subject of a review.

What we do know is that Liam was found dead

His last few days of life were spent in intense agony,

Injuries inflicted by his mother Rachel Fee

Liam Fee perished in the most horrific and unimaginable way. He

died from a ruptured heart brought about by a blow to his body. There

were double fractures to his leg and arm and 30 other injuries. The

killers were the people who should have been his ultimate protectors,

his mother and partner. The level of abuse and neglect that has taken

place over a prolonged period of time, we wanted all the details, we

didn't want to miss the additional charges that could have been put

against them. Rachel Fee and Nyomi Fee arriving at court during their

trial, inflicted a catalogue of abuse on another two boys who spoke

of being beaten, locked in a cage, tied up and forced to take hold

showers. A former friend spoke of his disbelief at the pair's reaction

at the death. There was no emotion in them. They were laughing, joking.

They said they were going to be sent to jail for neglect. Because they

knew they were being and for neglect anyway. But laughing and joking...

They were going to get the same cell together. Concerns were raised about

him several times. A senior five social worker admitted that at one

point Liam fell off their radar. A member of staff went off sick, no

one else was assigned to the case and wasn't reviewed until further

concerns were raised. These points will all be investigated in an

independent review already announced. The circumstances of

supporting families in situations like this can be complex and there

were a range of agencies involved in supporting Liam and his family, and

the details of that will be looked at in the serious case review. I

think it is important we allow the significant case review to consider

the circumstances of what has happened to be in some detail.

There's been a series of tragic cases in which reviews have been

carried out after a child was killed by their parents or killers. --

minders. The questions are always about how to prevent these cases

from happening again. That is turned up the heat on a controversial new

law giving every child at dedicated person. Because of confidentiality,

the council can't say whether Liam was covered by this or not. One

charity says it is important organisations talk to each other. It

is really important there is a joint up approach when there are concerns

about a child. The Named Person in Scotland is one of those ways. They

can make sure that any concerns are coordinated and that action is taken

and that all the people who should know are aware of any concerns.

Critics say too many children will come under the microscope, even

those who don't need it. In terms of the number of children who suddenly

become monitored where professionals and social workers are spending more

time with children who, really, should be left alone, who are not

serious risk. The focus should be children who are being neglected,

families that need serious support, and that should be the focus. Not

well being concerns and a universal service for all children and

families. But would it have helped Liam? The NSPCC say the problem was

one of child protection. Children and walking about with high risk on

their heads. We don't know what children and parents and families

are going to need support and the main person is there to act as a

point of support to children and families. When things go wrong,

where child protection comes in, that is what has failed Liam. Could

the named person's more help prevent children like Liam falling off the

radar or is there no way of rooting out the determined capability of two

people intent on hurting their children?

Here now to explore those questions are former Children's Panel member

And, in our Edinburgh studio, Douglas Ross,

the Scottish Conservatives' Justice Spokesperson.

Welcome to you both. This is a case that has shocked everyone. The two

people responsible for Liam's death watch and pin sheet and Nyomi Fee.

There is no doubt, though, is there, that the agencies involved here also

failed Liam. I think it is true what Alison Tod was saying and the lady

from the NSPCC. The Named Person is about information sharing. That is

what it is supposed to do. I can't speculate on this particular case

because there is a serious case review about to start which will

shed light on what happened here. We don't need another review to tell us

things still aren't working in a joined up way. It is important, due

to the seriousness of this case, it is totally tragic and it has shocked

everyone, that we need a review to see what went wrong. The Named

Person is a protection for children at the very early stage to pick up

signs at a very early stage, and it is a point of contact, as we said

earlier, for one person, for the child to go to one person, and that

person can help them and share their information with other agencies, and

it should work. And it has been designed for extra protection. Might

have 18 10th ring-mac made a difference in a case like this? I

want to begin by saying how shocking and sad this whole episode is. A

young boy is dead, and his death is at the hands of his parents, his

mother, whose prime responsibility in life should be caring for her

children so we have to look at that. In terms of the Named Person, we

shouldn't be speculating on the pros and cons of the policies surrounding

that. There were a number of interventions and opportunities,

whether it was the nursery who highlighted their concerns, whether

it was somebody looking deathly outside a local shop, whether it was

the police or social workers who went to the house. It isn't as if

Liam Fee didn't have any contact with people in the social services

but he fell through the cracks, which is what we have to address,

and the significant case review is the right way to go. You say we

shouldn't speculate about the Named Person tonight but your leader, Ruth

Davidson, has treated tonight saying Liam Fee had a named person under

the five pilot of the scheme. To be fair, she didn't just tweeted that

of her own back, she tweeted it in response to your tweets saying you

were discussing the Named Person on the show tonight, and what she was

saying is under the pilot in which five council were involved... So,

you know that to be true? Choose clarifying the point. Do you know

that to be true? Did Liam Fee have a Named Person? My understanding is he

had a Named Person through the pilot with five council but it wasn't a

Named Person that was involved but it was police, social work, the

nursery... Just to be clear... There were a number of areas where he

could have been... It is important to be clear because Ruth Davidson

has tweeted. We asked five council today. They said because of

confidentiality they couldn't say whether or not Liam was covered. But

they said it isn't accurate to say every child in five had the

equivalent of a named person. OK, but what is accurate to say, if I

can say, is that five council was involved, is involved with the pilot

of a Named Person, so we are aware that is one of the local

authorities, including South Ayrshire, Highland and others that

was involved in the pilot of the Named Person but we shouldn't get

away from the fact that there were a number of agencies involved and that

is what we have to get to the bottom of. There is a child who is now dead

at the hands of his mother, and there were opportunities,

potentially, to stop that, and they were not taken. So, Ruth Davidson

this saying with some confidence, and Douglas Ross as well, that Liam

Fee had a named person in five. Is that your understanding? I

absolutely don't know. I know five for trialling the Named Person as

were other local authorities but it is speculation whether he did all he

didn't. So, can we take it, then, that a Named Person might make a

difference in a case like this? Having a single point of contact to

make sure everybody knows what is going on, and, crucially, so that

something is done about it? That's right, this is why we are

strengthening our child protection policy. This goes beyond that. What

we have to remember is the people who are responsible for this tragic

incident are the people that were convicted today. And we have to

always remember that. The Named Person is an extra layer for

children who are vulnerable because not every child has a happy family

and can talk to their family. Is it taking resources away from the most

vulnerable? That is the criticism. Extra re-sources have been put in to

administer the Named Person, so it isn't a question of resources. So to

try to tie in the two, this tragic incident and the Named Person, is

complete be false. Do you think it is wrong to try and tie these two

things together or is this exactly what the debate's about? I do think

it is wrong which is why I say we shouldn't be trying to make a

political case out of this one incident and I'll go back to Ruth's

tweet. It was in response to your programme's tweet about the Named

Person being discussed in relation to this case. I also want to make

the point that beyond the guilty verdict for murder today, the two

individuals were found guilty of over two years of abuse and assault

of this young boy so it wasn't just a one-off incident, where his heart

was punctured, he had 30 injuries, the broken arm and broken leg. Akin

to being in a road accident. There was two years of abuse and terror

that was suffered by that boy, and that is what we have to get to the

bottom of. It wasn't a one-off incident. There's so much going on

here, which is why there must have been opportunities for an

intervention at an earlier stage. What is the point in Named Person,

if it isn't to help in cases like this? Nicola Sturgeon has said that

if it saves one child's life, it is worth it. That is true. It is there,

but I don't think you can link it with this case because we just don't

know what happened. We will all be spectating about what happened. I've

been a children's panel member for six years and these are thankfully

very rare cases, and the majority of children... We see hundreds of

children every day, and we help and protect them. And we do it well. It

is to do with information sharing and the Named Person will help that.

In this case, something's gone wrong, but we don't know what yet.

All right, thank you both for coming in this evening.

Now, it may seem a little churlish to ask why the SNP didn't do better

More than 46% of the constituency vote, up 1% on the election before,

with more MSPs than the other parties could dream of.

But the co-author of a new book on the rise of the SNP thinks

they could have won a majority if they'd played things differently.

Just before we came on air, I spoke to Professor James Mitchell,

Chair of Public Policy at Edinburgh University.

You start your book by saying it's a story of electoral supremacy but you

think the SNP could have done even better at the Hollywood elections.

Hard? I think if they had ruled out a second independence referendum, I

suspect they would have been able to win, maybe over 50% of the vote --

Holyrood, how? But the support of independence is one thing that

appeals to them. And also they are more competent than the

alternatives. But I think a second independence referendum put off some

people. Because BCB SNP as confident. And the chances of a

second referendum in this Parliament are negligible. It would have served

them well if they had formally ruled it out rather than be ambiguous

position they had, which ultimately didn't do them any good. But if

Nicola Sturgeon ruled out a second independence referendum, that would

surely have alienate at her core supported? I don't think so. The

core supporters now the prospects for another independence referendum

are unlikely to happen. And for many who want independence, few have an

appetite for an immediate referendum. And to be honest there

was little else for them to go. I can't imagine they would disappear

and, as long as she wasn't abandoning the long-term objective

of independence, I think she would have done better. But wouldn't doubt

even be difficult for her herself, as a lifelong independence

supporter, to stomach, to sell to the nation, even if it made sense

strategically? I think that's what strategic thinking politicians have

to do, think to the long-term. And that would have been a very good

move on her part. And of course she wants independence, no doubt as soon

as possible, but she's got to allow her head to rule, not her heart. And

except as she should have that independence is not likely in this

Parliament, and an indirect -- and a referendum wasn't, so it made more

logical sense to rule it out for now but we'll come back and revisit this

at the next election. In the boot you go way back, charting the as you

put in the extraordinary rise of the SNP. Looking at the last Westminster

election, the SNP won a Holyrood election, and it Westminster -- and

its Westminster majority by rocking the boat almost two cup size. Could

we expect a cut in the SNP's MPs at the next election? I don't think we

will have election campaign. I don't think the SNP is to worry too much.

At the end of the day the SNP has to write two horses at the same time,

on the one hand showing it as confident in government, but also

keeping alive the idea of independence. What happened in the

immediate aftermath of the referendum, at last year's UK

election, is it took advantage of that mood still there from that

referendum. No time and people have moved on, and the Scottish

parliament elections were about electing government to deal with

education, housing, health, all the other devolved matters, and people

were looking and got a message of competence from the SNP but it was

clouded to some extent about whether there would be another independence

referendum. Nobody doubts the SNP supports independence, the question

is when the second referendum will take place and went would it be

rational for the SNP and its leader to push for that. At the Westminster

election, you see in the book, the possibility of a hung parliament

made voters think the SNP could have influence. I guess the challenge is

whether they can now deliver on that. Obviously they have had

problems with their Westminster group. One of the backgrounds and

white bread reception to that election was that there would be a

hung parliament, giving the SNP relevance. That will be a challenge

at the next election if the public don't believe there will be a hung

parliament. So the SNP will need a different message that they are a

much more effective opposition in London than the alternative, the

Labour Party. That will be a challenge. I don't think they can

repeat the same message and approach at the Yuji elections as used last

year. What have you find out about why the Tories did so well and white

Labour did so badly? The Tories fought a truly remarkable campaign.

In many respects the best campaign, it was certainly focused, a clear

set of messages, they did not depart from this messages, to oppose an

independence referendum, and that the message was Labour was

ineffective. Repeating those messages again and again was very,

very effective and of course the Tories were clear that they were not

seeking office as the government of Scotland but to be the main

opposition. Their ambitions were relatively limited in that respect

but they were incredibly effective in getting that message across and

part of that was to deny they were Tories almost, the white

Conservative almost unseen in the election contest. -- the word

Conservative. Making sure the likes of David Cameron and George Osborne

were not seen. They were more nationalist than they have been but

selling a hard unionist message and I have to be safe they were very

effective good at doing it. Looking at your crystal ball, have we

reached peak SNP? I don't have a crystal ball. With political

sciences we have trouble enough understanding the present without

looking to the future. Anyone thinking the SNP has reached its

peak, or hasn't, is speculating and probably tells us more about what

they want to happen. There is evidence the SNP, I think they could

have done better, going over 50% of the vote in these elections, to the

Holyrood parliament. I don't think anyone can say they have come

anywhere near to peak but only time will tell. Indeed. Professor James

Mitchell, thank you for joining us. Thank you.

Joining me now to talk about some of the day's other

news is David Clegg, the Political Editor

And the Guardian's Scotland Correspondent, Libby Brooks.

Hello to both of you. Professor Mitchell there are seeing the SNP

would have done better if Nicola Sturgeon had ruled out a second

independence referendum. David, do you think he is right? I have

started reading his book but I'm not sure I am buying that thesis. Why

not? The result was a very successful result, it is very, very

difficult to get majority under proportional representation and I'm

not sure their position on the independence referendum was the

difference there. As he has set himself, I think part of the problem

they did not get the majority is more people were a bit promiscuous

with their list of votes than in 2011. If the SNP had looked looser

on the referendum on independence, you might have seen even more people

leaking to the Greens or other pro-independence parties. I'm not

sure that stacks up. Part of his point is distinct groups of people

voting SNP, not all of them independence supporter, some voting

for competent government, and that they were put off by the uncertainty

about a second referendum. Yes, again, I'm not completely convinced

by that thesis. Yes, that speaks to I think a minority of voters, but I

think for the most part I think that mixture between competence and sort

of aspiration, high ideals, is one of the great appeals of the SNP and

the reason they have been doing so well lately, is that notion that

they can sort of take care of those workaday ordinarily quite boring

concerns that you have the two-day, public services and so forth, but

also offering a dream. I think that one of the reasons for their

success. I wondered as well how it would have played with the party

faithful, the people who have supported the SNP for years because

of independence, right to take their votes for granted? I think that

Nicola Sturgeon played that perfectly. They talk about the

initiative for independence. There was an applause point in her speech.

What she did during the Holyrood election campaign was to put an

independence referendum in the distance but in such a way to keep

all of The Independent supporters in line, but also allowed her to switch

focus and reach out to other voters as well. The idea that this put

independence supporters off of the SNP seem strange and I'm not sure it

stacks up. Going back to your point about competent government, and the

new Education Minister John Swinney has acknowledged he has much to do

to improve schooling, amid new figures that the number of primary

school pupils but the grasp of numbers has fallen again.

There are ways we can Liverpool is foundational skills as part of

product education, and that is the challenge we have to take forward --

there are ways we can improve the foundational skills. I will focus my

efforts on this. It is a challenge all right. It certainly is. Those

numbers on them Morrissey were pretty shocking. It is what you go

to school for. -- those numbers on numeracy. This question of closing

the attainment gap, and incredibly noble ideal, but I wonder if the SNP

will come up against the problem that it is more than education,

improvements in education, that are needed to solve that. We are talking

about poverty and equality gap as well. That is a point that the EIS

were seeing, that the biggest drop is amongst the deprived. Is it is

also about austerity than improving schools? It is about the number of

teachers. The education budget has been cut by the SNP by about 10%.

And the issue with the most deprived communities. We have around one

third of EIS pupils failing basic numeracy standards. -- one third of

S2 pupils. It is the government's job to be dealing with this in such

a way that it is levelled out, that resources are targeted to those who

need it most. And after nine years of government, the SNP have not been

doing that. John Swinney spoke about measures being put in place to get

higher new Morrissey, but you have to give it time, do you think the

public will buy that? -- higher numeracy. He has been the job a

couple of days and has to apply through summertime councils and so

forth that Nicola Sturgeon announced when she set out her plans for the

next year. I think what he needs to do is start building bridges with

teachers, with the unions, also with local authorities. Let's not forget

that he was in a pretty brutal stand-off with until recently his

finance secretary. On the subject of competent government, again ...

The number of new outpatients waiting more than 12 weeks for

treatment has increased fivefold since the Scottish Government

gave a "guarantee" that nobody would have to wait that long.

I guess it matters that they get this right, doesn't it? Absolutely

right, and similar to numeracy, on health and education, the clock does

not start when John Swinney took office, it starts with when the SNP

took office. The numbers on waiting times were ambitious, set by the SNP

in 2012, but they seem to have gone backwards rather than forwards on

meeting them, a lot of work to do. And a bit of a mistake to make it a

guarantee? Not at all, targets are always artificial to an extent but

the key is to remember that you need to have the resources and expertise

behind the targets to actually ensure they are met. Thank you both

very much for coming in this evening.

That's it for tonight. Thanks for watching.

I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.

So do please join me then, but for now, we leave you with some

images from today's memorial service in Orkney to mark the centenary

of the Battle of Jutland, the largest naval battle

Dear friends, but as practice loving each other, for love comes from God.

-- let us practice. We haven't really wakened up to the

implications of Brexit for Scotland. both in Scotland and abroad

to find out. We've built our business models

around EU membership, Brussels seemed to have more

and more control. It was like a noose round our neck

all the time. Think you understand what it is to

be in the EU? The league campaign wants you to think again. -- the

leave campaign. You cannot have a single currency without political

union. There has to