22/09/2016 Scotland 2016

Community Payback Orders were designed as an alternative

So why are rapists and child sex offenders picking up litter rather

It's emerged that community sentences are being handed out

The Scottish Tories have demanded an urgent review.

We speak to the minister who introduced the system.

The Scottish Government avoids a defeat over its council tax

reforms after the Labour leader failed to register her vote.

And marking 25 years of telling untold stories.

We visit the Glasgow Women's Library.

All politicians agree that community sentencing has a place

Few, if any, would say it's appropriate for dealing

But questions were asked of the First Minister in parliament

today following reports that child sex offenders and rapists are among

those being spared jail under the Scottish Government's

The Scottish Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, has called

These types of crimes are receiving a community payback order, one of

this government's key justice policies. The include sexual

assaults against children, rape and child rape. This morning, rape

crisis Scotland said it was difficult to see in what

circumstances this could ever be an appropriate sentence for rape or the

rape of a young child. I have the utmost respect for the work that

rape crisis does and I agree their views on these matters should be

listened to carefully. Rape is one of the most serious offences that

can be committed in our society. I believe it is incumbent on all of us

to make sure that the offence of rape is treated seriously. I hope

this is a point that Ruth Davidson will accept. As First Minister, I do

not decide on the individual sentences passed down by courts.

That is rightly and properly a matter for the courts.

We asked to speak to the Justice Secretary Michael Matheson

The Scottish Government sent us a statement

about Community Payback Orders, to say that

the vast majority - 93% - of offenders in rape cases DO

the vast majority - 93% - of offenders in rape cases do

And that people on CPOs are subject to robust management

in the community and there are a number of sanctions

Well, before we came on air, I spoke to the former

Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill, who introduced Community Payback

When you ordered these community payback orders, why didn't you

exempt serious sexual offences such as When anybody is charged with

rape, it will be in the forefront of the deciding judge that a custodial

sentence will follow. Let's look at the facts. 93% of rape convictions

result in a prison sentence. The average prison sentence for rape is

something in the region of six and a half years. If this is the average,

a lot are getting a lot more. This is clearly several of those cases

where there is something exceptional. I think it is right in

our society that that should be left to the good sense of the judiciary.

You mention the figure of 93%. I'm struggling to think of what reasons

than might be in 7% of cases that might justify an alternative to

jail. It seems to me there are very exceptional circumstances, be that

age of the perpetrator, familial, a whole range of things. I don't think

any judge presiding would ever do so lightly. They would have to be

satisfied that public safety was absolutely guaranteed. And that this

was appropriate in all these very exceptional circumstances. This was

a scheme designed for a low-level offences. In what way can rape ever

be classified as a low-level offence? It is not. 93% go to a

custodial sentence. The average sentence is six and a half years.

There may be exceptional cases where it is clearly a conviction for one

of the most serious crimes we have, but there are extenuating

circumstances that might make a custodial sentence inappropriate.

Batters for the judge to decide. You handed this tool to judges. You must

have known this could be uses based bash this could have been used for

rape cases. The Crown has the right to appeal. That can be brought in

after the debacle after the worlds end murder. The Appeal Court can

overrule the initial presiding judge and impose a far more strict than

severe sentence. That clearly was not done because the Crown and

others who have an interest did not feel it was appropriate in all

circumstances. This is very much the exception to the rule which is that

if you are convicted of rape you go to jail for a long time. The Tories

have called for a review. Should be First Minister look at a review? We

have a sentencing council. If it is felt there are considerable issues,

it can go to the sentencing councils for them to look at this. Scotland

is a safer place. We have the lowest recorded crime in 41 years. Rape

conviction rates are at their lowest in 17 years. Occasionally you get

decisions like this by a sheriff or judge. Sometimes because great

consternation and sometimes they will be appealed. We have very low

conviction rates for rape. Surely there should be an exception for a

government can step in and for more guidance? I believe this should be

left to the judiciary. Sentencing council can have their input. The

conviction rate for rape is improving, despite the challenges

faced by historic sexual abuse. Action is being taken by the police,

correct action is being taken by the judiciary, and we do have fail-safes

in place. Thank you. Today's Holyrood vote

on local tax reform took The tallies for and against

the Government at the end were tied. As it turned out, Labour leader

Kezia Dugdale's vote wasn't counted, She's insisted she did vote

against the Government and wants Parliament officials say though

they're confident the voting system Here to talk about the nuts

and bolts of the debate are the SNP's James Dornan

and Andy Wightman from the Greens. James Dornan first of all, I take it

you will be writing a thank you note to Kezia Dugdale for saving your

bacon? Autonomy takes on a new meaning after the events of today. I

think this is another embarrassment that she could have done without.

This is an electronic voting system and there shouldn't be still years.

There are not still years. They checked it immediately afterwards

and there was no failure. Coincidently, the only time that its

field was when it was needed to beat the Scottish Government in a vote

for the first time in goodness knows how long. You have said in previous

manifestos that you want to abolish the council tax. Several years ago,

Nicola Sturgeon said any reforms would be tinkering around the edges.

We said in 2007 we wanted to abolish it and we came in as a minority

government with that intention but we got no support. Since then,

things have moved on. The economic situation has become more difficult.

We are moving towards trying to get a fairer system of local taxation.

We have had ten years under extremely difficult circumstances

and we have only had five years in majority government. You can always

take something from a previous manifesto, carry it on to the next

one when you have lots to deal with. That is what happened between

2011 and 2016. We had the review from the commission and they have

come out with these plans. I accept some of our opponents will come up

with their own suggestions, but there can be no doubt that we have

tried to make a sphere and we will continue to make their sphere. One

of the things that all politicians seem to shy away from is that thorny

issue of re-evaluation. That kind of lies behind your proposals. Our

brave policy and one that is not popular with the public? It is

popular with the public. The idea that people should pay tax based on

the value of their homes over a quarter of a century ago is utterly

ridiculous. I have constituents sitting in band E properties which

will face a hike under government proposals, whose homes are worth

less than band B properties just a straightaway. If we did income tax

like this, income tax would be paying no income tax because she was

a student in 1991. The only reason this would be problematic now is

because were doing it after a quarter of a century of never doing.

The way to do it is to do the re-evaluation and fees at 10/5 or

six years and have deferral scheme is for those who wish to defer

payment. Are you too timid to look at this? This happened in Wales and

almost 60% of those who were affected most were those in the

lower bands. This does not affect those at the higher level

particularly and it affects those at the lower level. Given the economic

circumstances just now and austerity measures coming through from

Westminster, to our schools already struggling to be hit with a bill for

something which has not been dealt with for a long time, but to ask

them this time to be dealing with now, it is completely wrong. Under

your proposals, people would be paying more? Not at all. Most people

would be paying less. The rate is set by local councils, we are

talking about the design the system. It should be

designed such that the taxpayer is up to date. It is fairly

straightforward. I understand political and kidney bash

communication challenges. We have five years ahead of us. We should be

aiming to work ahead in this Parliament so that we have scrapped

the council tax within five years and we have a modern tax base that

is up-to-date in place of that. I would have more sympathy with his

proposal if he would tell us how long it would take to get the

evaluation done and how much it would cost. What is happening here

is that there is this idea that it does not seem to have been well

thought through at all. It is all right seeing there is no doubt and

the commission actually came up with the phrase that the council tax is

not perfect, but there is no one perfect taxation system. Is right.

What we have to do is over the period of this Parliament, we have

to look at continual ways of making the local taxation system much

clearer. In the said in Parliament that there is more to come. What is

down the line? That is for the local government minister to announce, not

me. We put forward a commission. I have not heard from Andy and his

colleagues. Surely it is a good thing for us to be able to raise

taxes from underused land? Surely the dreams of all parties should be

supporting that? Maybe they should spend some time trying to support

us? Very few parties would propose a completely new system. Would you

support the SNP if they came up with further reforms for the existing

council tax system? One of the things that came out of the

Parliament today, and you should remember that Douglas Ross was not

in the chamber and that contributed to the results, we all agreed in all

the amendments that we were committed to further discussion over

the course of this Parliament and I welcome that. One of the reasons why

we were quite united against the government today was the fact they

are intending to use the rise in council tax receipts to fund an

educational attainment fund. This would be the first time since local

taxation was introduced at national government has taken away local

government funding. We must leave it there are. Thank you very much

indeed. The new Ukip leader Diane James says

that Brexit inside the UK offers Scotland MORE powers

than independence INSIDE the EU. Our Westminster correspondent,

David Porter, asked Ms James whether she understood

that the Remain majority in Scotland believed Brexit had

been foisted upon them. I understood totally to the

contrary. I had been reading in the last week that a lot of people in

Scotland are now recognising that thankfully the decision that Nicola

Sturgeon would like to see happen, which is to stay in the EU, is wrong

for Scotland and that if they were actually given the opportunity of a

second referendum they will be voting to Lead, so probably coming

at this from a contrary information banks. Be the referendum we had, 60%

were against leaving the EU and were for. What is the opportunity you'd

suggest that Scotland now has, because we are where we are? If and

when we actually see the ink dry on a document that takes, and I

emphasise takes the United Kingdom out of European control, then under

devolution, Scotland can effectively adopt powers and an act powers that

it will then decide on and make... Effectively deliver on out of

Holyrood. That is a huge benefit to the Scottish people and enshrined in

terms of the whole devolution aspects that Scotland now enjoys and

means it is not going to, for some of the remainders, switch from one

element of control, ie Brussels and Strasbourg, back to another.

Scotland starts to define and deliver its own future. Within the

United Kingdom. You seem to be suggesting that under Brexit,

Scotland and Holyrood could have more autonomy as part of the UK than

they would do as part of the EU? What I'm saying is that by freeing

itself from a EU control, Scotland has a much, much more positive

future. Because then, in terms of how it manages its finances and

economy, how it decides and makes those very, very important decisions

in Scotland, it would do under devolution powers granted out of

Westminster. It will not be dictated to and directed by legislation or

directives coming out of Brussels and Strasbourg. So using to be

suggesting in effect that there is a democratic dividend for Scotland,

because of the Brexit though? I do believe that is the case. A

Democratic dividend, a political control the dividend, and economic

dividend. It is positive after positive, it is a win win Scotland.

Talking about democracy, there are many who say that in light of the

independence referendum on the EU that Scotland should now have

another independence referendum about whether it remains part of the

UK. I'm sure that is what Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would like to

claim that they can deliver, but my understanding again, and it's

possibly a contrary though, given that I'm based in the south-east of

the UK, but my understanding is that the latest it is takes and all of

the latest polls and the latest polling however it may be delivered,

is that the Scots do not want another referendum. They are like

Chile against it and they see the benefits first of all of the Brexit

decision and what I will deliver for Scotland and they don't need

independence from the United Kingdom and in fact, don't want it. And for

the sake of clarity, what is your view on a second independence

referendum? I would not support it. I would like to see Scotland is

still part and for the foreseeable future for decades to come, be in

the union with England. Nigel Farage had quite a scratchy relationship

with certain parts of Scotland. What can you do to get the Ukip message

across in Scotland and also increase the electoral fortunes of your party

there? The first step is an invitation I will be taking up from

David Cockburn, representing Scotland. He has very kindly invited

me to Scotland, the date is still to be identified and defined, when I

will then tour as many of the branches in Scotland that are

willing to meet with me and I'm hoping that will be every single

branch that we have across the country. You believe you can

increase Ukip's reach in Scotland? I believe we can. Ruth Davidson has

not got the Opposition in Scotland solely on her terms. She has got an

Opposition nipping at their heels. Thank you.

The Glasgow Women's Library is celebrating its

It was founded as an answer to the overwhelmingly male-dominated

programme when Glasgow was City of Culture back in 1990.

It holds an archive of women's history, hosts cultural,

community and craft events and encourages research

How to make a husband. They are but he added that, I'm writing to you in

desperation... I kept thinking all of these voices, also brave,

eloquent, loud, well-written and dirty... I think I'm an abnormal

freak! Making sure women's voices are heard. The mission for the

company macro for the past 25 years. There was a huge appetite for having

a space that would remain and love both at the hidden histories of

women in Scotland and cultural contributions, but also as a

crucible to encourage the development of lots of new creative

endeavours by women across the arts. Today, a group gathered to hear an

author read her work. Answer questions. And show off the camper

van which provide both inspiration and somewhere to work. I can go

where I lie, I can go to the middle of nowhere where there is no mobile

reception, no interruptions, no distractions, except the lovely

view. I am my own captive audience, so I have to write and I almost

always do when I do this. It is about my own space. The library in a

similar way as we giving people a space. Is that fair? Yes, that's

right. It's a welcoming space. Very, very welcoming and friendly. So why

do the people here today use the library? It is a wonderful

opportunity to come together with girls and women of all ages to

discuss things that perhaps you wouldn't have chosen for yourself.

It is a great place, safe and confidential and I think people find

it really relaxing when they come here. There are personal reasons why

people would come, are there? Yes, coming here after a major health

care has given me confidence. I am still learning, learning about

camper van ink and these! That is the personal, but there's also

political reasons for coming? Yes, through various waves of feminism, I

am comforted to know I can speak about any issues at all and will be

listened to politely, but argued with when necessary. This is a

library with shelf after shelf of books, but it aims to be more than

that, running classes to equip people with skills they have lacked

all their lives, perhaps since leaving school. Matisse didn't

really help me very well at school. Since I came here, my reading has

improved. Balou Du Reventon women of all different reasons, a lot because

they didn't have a good experience at school and all we do as well as

giving them the skills and knowledge is help them regain confidence and

self-esteem and do things for themselves. Everything that goes on

in the library takes place against the background of the struggle for

equality, the fight to win votes for women. We shouldn't ever forget what

those people went through in order to get that for us. Particularly

looking at what's going on today and, you know, people not using

their vote. It's so important! Sorry, I'm getting a little bit...

But, you know, the vote was fought for and should be used. The library

said it is determined to keep its radical edge. We are proud we have a

lesbian archive. We are proud about developing our trans collection and

a sexologist season. So we can still ruffling a few feathers hopefully

and encourage people who think there is no other place for them.

Somewhere they can't find elsewhere in Scotland. But amongst the

sexology materials, you will find knitting patterns. Thousands of

single earrings donated by owners who had lost the other half of each

pair make up this remarkable chandelier. What could be discounted

finds a new future. Now to discuss the news of the day

is Alan Bissett and the editor of the Commons space website, Angela

Haggerty. Ruth Davidson called on the SNP Government today to review

community payback orders. Is one of the problems that we've had is

long-standing tradition where ministers don't get involved in a

judicial decisions? Yes, I think is an issue and it's understandable why

we have that. However, I think on an issue like this, I wasn't really

surprised to hear that some rape convictions or attempted rape

convictions lead to non-custodial sentences. I don't feel like I

reflect the gravity of sexual crimes. So while it might be the

Scottish Government's job to be directly involved, I think they

could be making statements in other ways are making it clear that as a

society, we have certain values and believe that our justice system

should work in a certain way, particularly with reference to

violent sexual crime. So it was a bit disappointed for me to hear

Nicola Sturgeon say that. She could make a stronger statement about the

Government or the SNP's position. Allen, should we make an exception

particularly in a rape crimes when a rape crisis said that under 6% of

rape crimes actually to conviction? Well, obviously every single case is

different and it is up to a jury to decide on the guilt or otherwise of

a suspect, but it is my personal feeling, I agree with Angela, Andrew

Davidson, that rape is a crime and should mean eight prison sentence,

so should attempted rape. I can't quite understand any circumstances

in which it would not. I suppose we trust judges to make a rights

decision. Yes, it is tricky for a Government seem to be influenced

that swagger influencing the judiciary. That sets a precedent and

is not necessarily a good road to go down. If you are going to appoint a

judge is, you have to trust them to give a as they see appropriate. I

just personally can't understand why would -- why they'd see appropriate

to give a community service to a rapist.

Lets talk about the tax debate, and the strange case

I categorically voted tonight. My colleague saw the vote is registered

on the vote 's computer so we need to know why. This is serious,

because the SMB made a promise to scrap council tax. They failed and

that is why the Opposition parties were uniting tonight and I want to

know why my vote wasn't registered. So she said she voted and officials

say the equipment is working fine. Is a bit of a farce, isn't it? She

is in the headlines for the wrong reasons tonight. It is baffling,

what's happened. I'm curious and would love to know how a little

system works. Is it possible you can make a mistake I think you've voted

and actually have? It is a shame in a lot of ways, because we are now

talking about whether Kezia Dugdale voted or not, whether she knew how

to vote or not. It is getting quite silly on social media. The real

issues about local taxation are kind of being swept aside now. It's been

an interesting day and I think journalists are certainly having a

more exciting day than they expected. Brand she failed to vote

because she didn't want to be seen to be attacking the SNP all the time

but it seems that is not the case. Is difficult to know. -- it is

difficult to know. Either their technology failed and she tried to

vote in good faith, or she simply forgot. There's been a moment of

confusion where she hasn't voted and she's now joins a double downer and

front it out. We may never know, but I can't see how she would have a

motive for voting against the Government in this particular case.

I can't see what she would gain from that. I'm going to give her the

benefit of the doubt. White Dragon of a they say. The accounts

commission said today that is:'s social work system is under strain

and is unsustainable and all ?700 million is needed by 2020. Where

will it come from? Well, that's a big question. There are questions

and we were chatting about this before, about how much power

Scotland really has over budgets like that for long-term planning.

But this is part of a much bigger problem that as far as I'm concerned

nobody really wants to get into, because when moving into a situation

where elderly people are only part of this care system, but they were

the kind of people who did think about pensions, they did think about

long-term planning and the future and security. An interesting thing

in the report was a recommendation about maintaining staff levels and

it was roundabout zero hours contracts are making sure people

employed on those had better working conditions, so we are looking at

people in the care centre today on zero hours contracts delivering this

care. They will be thinking about pensions and long-term security, is

almost impossible to do that on such a contract. It is one of the issues

of our time, this ageing population. People of my generation are not

thinking in the way that the elderly population we have now once did. So

it's a short-term crisis, but will be a bigger one in the long-term and

talking about short-term bursts of where the money comes from, it's

kind of a drop in the ocean of something much bigger that we have

to face. It is such a big issue and we have all this talk about Brexit

and Scottish independence, isn't it social care we should be focusing

on? Well, yes. But they are all interlinked, because there are

various economic and political factors in play all the time. It is

fine for the Opposition and the media to say whether Scottish

Government going to find the money, but they have to take it from

somewhere. That means a cut somewhere else, they can't manage

this money out of thin air. I hate to come out of elephant in the room,

but we've voted to be constrained within the union and the Budget of

Westminster and that is falling in real terms and will continue to do

so. We'll have to leave it there. That sits goodbye.

'so that he can spend the rest of his life in prison.'