31/10/2016 Scotland 2016

Is providing a safe place for people to inject drugs under supervision

the way forward or simply enabling harmful behaviour?

Plans for so-called "fix rooms" for drug addicts have been given

the go-ahead in Glasgow - we'll hear from experts,

The living wage workers receive is going up, but how

is the amount we need to live on calculated?

And in the US, the FBI is investigating Hillary

We get the view from across the pond.

A partnership of councillors, police and health professionals has

given approval in principle for Glasgow to set up so-called "fix

They'd be safe places, where addicts could take

More details of exactly where and how it's planned

to provide what's officially known as a "Safer Consumption Facility"

We'll debate the pros and cons in a moment.

First, Huw Williams has been hearing from two people who've been clean

for the past three years, but who know first hand what life

You may find some of the details distressing.

By the time I had reached my teenage years, this community had witnessed

a real explosion of drugs, lots of drugs had come into the community

and my friends and everybody I was being friends with kind of started

using drugs. It was a progression from when I was at high school from

the age of 14 and getting involved with alcohol and experimenting with

harsh. It was a progression and I left home at the age of 16 and went

to university in Edinburgh are to study psychology and got involved

with different influences and progressed through different drugs

with the dance and music scene of the time. I never thought I would

use heroine but in my final -- final year at university I did. In and out

of prison, I thought about injecting drugs and that brought about

problems like abscesses, infections, blood clots and that brings me to

the attention of A and being in hospitals. I reached my rock bottom,

for me, I had to have two lengthy hospital admissions. I split up with

my partner. I had isolated myself from a lot of people. I was

desperate. I knew that if I continued to use drugs that

ultimately I could end up dying. I have had friends who I grew up with

through school who have died in this community as a result of addiction

and drug overdoses and stuff like that. I have had friends who have

died with the anthrax scare and lost limbs through injection of heroin

and anthrax but I always had that ability to kind of like myself and

convince myself that that would never happen to me. There were

occasions when I had to travel into the city centre to buy drugs and I

did end up using drugs in flats and places that were quite idiotic, with

people that I did not know and people that I did not necessarily

want to be with and I think now that if there had been his revised

consumption available, then I could have gone there and perhaps got

access to the help that I needed at an earlier stage. You might find

that they do not want to do it any more. Why is a safe injection room

key to removing the chaos? It's those people speaking about up and

down the lanes, it removes the chaos involved of having to run and get

needles, having to seek somewhere to inject, overdosing on the streets of

the city centre, it also keeps them safe. For a lot of people, it is

just enough for someone to come and ask them how they are doing, that

means a lot, society as a whole has to start looking at these people and

helping them to reduce the damage that they do to themselves because

quite often they are already damaged people.

That report from reporter Huw Williams and producer

Well, joining me to discuss today's developments are Kirsten Horsburgh

from the Scottish Drugs Forum, who's in Dundee, and Dr Ian Oliver,

who was Chief Constable of both Grampian and Central Scotland Police

and is now a member of the Institute On Global Drug Policy,

Good evening to both of you. Thank you for joining us.

Kirsten, I will come to you first. What do you think about this? Last

year I spent two weeks in Sydney's medically supervised injecting

centre and saw the benefits that these services can provide. I do not

think that it is the only solution, absolutely not, but as part of an

evidence -based strategy to try and reduce drug-related deaths and

reduce some of the harms that cost by problematic drug use, I think it

is a fantastic step forward. Dr Oliver, you have looked at

international examples, but I do not think that you share the thought

that this is the best way forward? What do you think is wrong with this

idea? What is clearly wrong with the idea is that an issue repeal the

misuse of drugs at the idea is totally illegal. It would be

completely and absolutely against the law to do what is being proposed

and we hear people talking in good faith about evidence-based research

and what has gone on elsewhere around the world, the United Nations

office on drugs and crime is against these sites. I have worked anyone in

Vancouver, I have seen what goes on there and the primary objective of

any government must be rather like the medical profession, firstly to

do no harm. Therefore it should not be doing anything that promotes the

continuation of drug misuse or the misuse of drugs. And certainly the

idea of people taking their own drugs into a place in which to

inject them is verging on the totally irresponsible. I cannot see

that that will in any way reduce deaths, the spread of diseases any

community or preventing people from continuing to take drugs. The other

thing you must bear in mind is that even if you had the legal authority

to set up these legal injecting rooms, you do not really think that

people on heroine will just use the drugs in the injecting them? They

will continue to use them on the streets 24 hours each day. I have

not heard a proposal that these rooms will be open 24 hours each

day. So it is not doing anything to reduce drugs and the only way in

reality, and the ideal world, I admit, the only way for people who

want to get off drugs and get rehabilitated as education... On the

legal issue, the Lord Advocate would have to give the permission to

repeal the misuse of drugs act. Kirsten, coming back to you...

Before you go to her, with respect, I do not think that the Lord

Advocate has the authority. It is not a devolved thing. You cannot

suddenly see Weibo repeal the misuse of drugs act in Scotland and say it

will not operate here. It is from Westminster and the likelihood of

that happening is very unlikely. Kirsten, the legal ability was

present, is the political will present to do this? The Scottish

Government has said it has no intention of looking at this on a

nationwide scale. Yes, there have been lots of discussion is

obviously. Now that the full business case has been put to go

ahead, those discussions will become more formalised and the key

stakeholders will have discussions about it. Going back to a point that

Dr Oliver made, he talked about firstly doing no harm, well, I would

say that these facilities reduce the harm and that is what we should be

focusing upon, reducing the harms caused by problems drugs use and

that sometimes involves starting at the very basics by providing a

service so that people can access it. We already provide people with

sterile injecting equipment and providing them with a sterile

environment in which the use drugs is a natural and obvious next step.

But does it not just enable their habit? Does it address their habit

and is there evidence that it can actually reduce addiction? Yes, that

was another thing that Dr Oliver raised about the evidence, there are

no less than 135 published research papers showing the clear benefits of

the services. Some of those are about reducing drug-related deaths.

There have been Ms Eagle overdose fatalities in any supervised

injecting centre anywhere in the world. There are about 90 of these

facilities which have been in operation for over 30 years. The

reduce the incidence of blood-borne viruses because they provide access

to sterile injecting equipment but more importantly, what they do do is

that they provide a dignified and respectful and compassionate service

to some of the most marginalised and vulnerable people in our society.

Just treating people as human beings and being able to get them in the

door to a service that can link them into other services that can help

them address some of the problems they are having in their lives. Some

pies for people for drugs are not the biggest problem in their lives

and it can be a tick past that they have. Homeless situations etc. Dr

Oliver, on that situation of chaos, we heard in the film from Thomas and

Claire. If they had had the support, might things have been different for

them? Do you except that is the case? It is really perpetuating the

use of drugs which is what we are supposed to be posing and I do not

think that the overwhelming evidence from around the world indicates what

you are telling us, the view of the lady in Dundee. If it was possible,

and we are talking in many respects about the ideal and I know that is

not always achievable, but people firstly have to got to wish to get

off drugs and secondly they need help with rehabilitation. People

already have been prescribed heroin since as long ago as 1920 and a

limited number of cases but all that does is perpetuate the use of drugs

and the other thing that it also does is that if you set up one

centre in Glasgow, if that were legally possible, and at the moment

I do not believe for one minute that it is, if there's was a legal

possibility for that, you are sending out the message to young and

impressionable vulnerable people, well, drugs are not all that bad, if

I get into problems I can go and get help and get off of them. It does

not work like that. Deaths do not reduce, the spread of diseases is

not reduced and that has been a case from Australia, the Netherlands,

Germany... Kirsten, a very quick last word from you, your response?

With all due respect, I completely disagree with all the points made.

The evidence is strong from all of the areas and published papers from

the centres. Having spent to beat in the centre I can tell you that the

evidence is present to reduce all of those things that Dr Oliver state is

not the case. There would be clear what is going forward but the Crown

Office to address some of the legal issues in Scotland and certainly we

hope that that will be the case. Kirsten Horsburgh and Doctor Ian

Oliver, thank you both for joining us.

Good news today for those who earn the living wage.

A new rate of ?8.45 an hour has been set for the UK, excluding London.

The 20p increase was independently calculated

by the Living Wage Foundation based on what employees and their families

Well, shortly before we came on air, I spoke to Katherine Chapman,

who's director of the Living Wage Foundation.

Living wage is calculated based on what is needed for a basic but

acceptable standard of living, so it covers things like child care,

transport, food, household bills, housing, all the things that are to

make and make a decent standard of living. That will have changed over

time. How happy are you to get to this point and what has the Johnny

Bean to get here? We have had a National Minimum Wage for some time,

what is the jump from minimum wage to living wage? The living wage

rates announced today are ?8.45 in the UK and that compares to a

National Minimum Wage of ?7.20. This really is a robust calculation. It

has been overseen by an independent committee from businesses, civil

society and trade unions and it really takes into account the most

up-to-date figures and data on what it cost to live in the country. Is

it fair to say that the living wage is something that is a movement of

different people that has been campaigning for and that employers

will end up picking up the bill but that the government is taking the

credit for it? It is fantastic to have the support of politicians and

it was brilliant to have the First Minister announce the late this

morning. But really, this is a movement about employers choosing to

go further so the real living wage is a voluntary rate, employers

choose to pay it because they want to make sure that their employees

have a decent quality of life and enough to live on. The campaign

started 15 years ago in east London but it has grown from strength to

strength in the past two years and Scotland has seen some of the

fastest growth over the past year and there is only 700 employers in

Scotland paying the real living wage, that is an increase of 300

from last year. They choose to pay it because they want to make sure

their employees have enough to live on, they are not waiting for the

government to tell them what to do, they are choosing because they think

it is the right thing to do for their employees and it makes good

business sense. Is it correct that the onus is put on businesses and

this will include employers like local authorities as well? It is

about getting the right balance between businesses and government.

That is why the rates take into account tax and benefits as well as

the cost of living. Really, the employers that we work with, they

tell us they choose to do this because it is the right thing to do

but they also see the business benefits. A lot of those that we

work with tellers that one paying the living wage, staff turnover goes

down, absenteeism rates dropped and productivity rises so it can have

tangible benefits on the bottom line as well as being the right thing to

do. Presumably it does not stop here, inflation is on the up so the

concept of a living wage now will be different in six monster-mac time,

is this something that will require constantly view? That is correct.

The rates are updated annually to do just that, to take into account the

cost of living. Every November then living wage week, the new rates will

be announced and we would expect them to increase because the cost of

living will increase. How much do you take into account things like

social life and holidays, things that people would consider to be

part of a happy life, you could see? The bid is based on a basket of

goods and services and it will include things like the odd treat,

for example, a birthday present for a child on their birthday. These are

basic things, I do not think you would describe them as luxuries, and

that is what the cost of living calculation will take into account.

Now, over the weekend, yet another storm in this turbulent

US election year has been steadily brewing.

On Friday, the director of the FBI, James Comey, announced

an investigation into material that may relate to Hillary Clinton's use

of unofficial emails, while she was Secretary of State.

The latest emails were found in a separate investigation

into allegations that former congressman, Anthony Weiner,

sent illicit text messages to a 15-year-old girl.

Mr Weiner is separated from Mrs Clinton's close

I've been speaking to James Fallows, who's national correspondent

for The Atlantic magazine, based in Washington DC,

and I started by asking him how unusual such an intervention is,

This is a violation of an act. That is viewed as being something of a

breach because director call me of the FBI was not trying to intervene

directly but I think it has been impressed on me how veterans of the

FBI and the Justice Department from both parties including to adjourn

the journal's of George W Bush have rushed in to say that whether or not

this was illegal, it was almost unbelievable bad judgment and

recklessness. There has been a development today involving Russian

allegations which scores that. Director Comey decided not to

release that information if you weeks ago because it might disturb

that might be disturbing. And how much pressure would James

Comey be under a given that the Trump campaign have made so much

about calling foul, if you like, against Hillary Clinton's campaign?

Do you think he would have felt under pressure to not appear

partisan? Yes, he was a Republican and it is a ten year term from the

FBI director which is meant precisely to insulate them from

politics. Why this is being seen as a conflict between individual and

institutional interest, the individual pressure on director

Comey seems to have been his fear that something would come out about

this latest crop of e-mails which made it seem significant that he

would be individually blamed by the Republicans for covering it up

poorly. The other argument by most former attorney generals and FBI

directors was that there was an institutional and organisational

political interest not to give -- get the FBI involved in this case so

it could be seen that Comey has tried to protect himself against a

reprisal from Republicans. How damaging is the inclusion of Anthony

Wheeler in these e-mails? There is a jewel in Clinton world that the most

conspiratorially interpretation of the Clintons is that over the years

they have robbed out or eliminated their critics and the continued

existence of Anthony Wiener is counter evidence to that because

this man is a nightmare, he has been a nightmare for himself, of course,

for his now separated wife who works for the Clinton campaign. So there

is no one in American politics who at this moment is not embarrassed by

Anthony Wiener, although Donald Trump went out of his way to thank

him yesterday. How damaging could this be now for Hillary Clinton's

campaign? It is the practical implications that are difficult to

tell. My best guess is that this will not move the lot of votes and

the reason is that for people who are already four Donald Trump and

think that these e-mails are disqualified for Hillary Clinton,

they already believe that. For people on the other night who are

for Hillary Clinton and against Donald Trump, they think this does

not change the fundamentals of how they view the election and for

people in between, you know, I have heard arguments where people have

said that this additional cloud will diminish things against Hillary

Clinton. On the other hand, people are saying that this could all turn

out by people who feel aggrieved by this last-minute intervention. Also

tens of millions of votes have already been cast in the early

voting, so my guess is that this will not be seen but like it will be

seen in retrospect as a mistake but probably not a decisive factor in

the election. We don't know if it is e-mails

previously examined in the case against Hillary Clinton. This could

be end up being damaging, but ultimately not leading to anything.

Yes, as you point out we don't know if they are new, to or from Hillary

Clinton. I think the political world guess is that since tens of

thousands of these things have already been through the mill, both

with the FBI and through the wick I can leak Leaks it would be

surprising if there was something new only on Anthony Weiner's

computer. The odds are it will not have the additional e-mail. The

problem is no-one is going to know before election day or know for

sure. Thank you so much for joining us.

My pleasure. Thank you. And with me this evening to talk

about some of the day's news is the law lecturer and columnist

Andrew Tickell and from Oxfam Do you think the fixed rooms are a

good idea? I think harm reduction in terms of drugs is the strategy to do

this. From a legal point of view it is curious that misuse of drugs is a

matter. Holyrood does not have much policy autonomy here. It is likely

Theresa May's Government would pursue this kind of thing. It seems

to me very pragmatic, practical. We don't live in the best of all

possible worlds and trying to reduce all the social harms from drugs

seems to be sensible and courageous. People often criticising Scottish

public authorities for not being as courageous as they can be. That

strikes me as nothing but courageous. Legal and political

hurdles aside, should it be something that is tried out, at

least? Absolutely. I think we need to try everything. We need to admit

that our country does have a very desperate drug problem. What we need

to do is offer people a safe, clean space to inject but where they will

come into contact with social workers who will hopefully set them

on the road of-to-recovery T word "fix" is key there. It is not just a

hit room to get their hit, it is about fixing people. That is

fantastic. Do you think location can be a problem though? Is this

something people would want to live or work besides? These will be in

places where we have social problems in terms of drugs. So it is not

places, we will not install these in places where the feelings of the

problems you have identified will not be felt by these kind of

communities. You can understand the not in my back yard feeling. If what

is in your back yard is needles already, then why not welcome

somewhere you can you address these problems and take it off the streets

into areas where help is available. It does not address rural drug

problems which are a big problem in Scotland? And it does not address

root causes. It is a welcome sticking plaster. Until we really

look to why people are turning to drugs and alcohol to maybe put a

sock over their problems, why we look at people experiences chaotic

lives. There have been a spate of reports looking at increasing

loneliness, increasing work, we need to ask the questions, whoa is the

nature of our economy doing to people that is forcing them to turn

to drugs? Until we really have a long, hard look at the structure of

the economy, then these will be sticking plasters, albeit very

welcome ones. Another big story of the day was campaigners condemned

the Home Secretary's decision to rule out a public inquiry into the

so-called battle in 1984. Thousands of miners and police clashed at the

site during the miners' strike. We say the decision is deeply

disappointing and absolutely unacceptable. It is nearly 32 years

since 95 miners were arrested. Now, some of those miners are dead.

And the surviving ones face the prospect of more time, more delay

before we get truth and justice. This is a difficult one, isn't it?

There were no deaths or wrongful convictions but those who have

campaigned for an inquiry say a great deal of other damage was done.

People were seriously injured for a start. People spent time in prison

on remand as well. So, there is a lot of emotion still surrounding

this and it has not been addressed today? I was not living in the

country at the time. I am still incredibly connous of how really

this defines that part of our history. It is all through music and

writing. It is very emblem mattic of the time. It has etched itself on to

public consciousness. Hearing today her saying that, we have learnt all

the lessons, where there is little to learn, is very worrying because

we are in a situation where there are instances of police brutality.

We also have had some troubling incidents in the recent times of

police infiltration of campaign groups. So I think to say there are

not lessons still to be learnt is highly problematic. Andrew, how much

was the involvement of South Yorkshire Police in this case, after

the great criticism it faced from Hillsborough a big issue? Lessons

taken. Hillsborough has been on the lips of many people. Nobody died in

terms of the clashes involving this particular mine. Questions go

unanswered. Hillsborough involved football fans. Under Thatcher they

were a... What was this, this was Margaret Thatcher's political war,

directing the police politically. If that is not historically important,

even more in some senses than Hillsborough then I am not sure what

is. I can understand people saying justice delayed is justice denied

and transparency is always the best sunshine. I tend to hold to that

view. We heard from the Business Secretary talking about the

sensitivity of the information in Nissan and what has gone on. What do

you make of this? There are things to be concerned about. Let's look at

what bodes well. One of the factors outlined was the exploration of

ultra low carbon vehicles. If this is a precedent of Government getting

on the front foot and starting to embrace a shift to a low-carbon

industry and supporting the industries we need in the 21st

century, then that is fantastic. There are all sorts of layers of

Government involvement in supporting businesses. It is knowing how much

we should know about that. The SNP want to make a Freedom of

Information request about this. Your positivity. That was an elegant

pivot. But they want to know what is behind the deals. What is in the

letter Nissan have received. Theory ashurntss about what will happen if

there is Brexit and tariffs are imposed. The suspicion must be they

have received reassurances that we will foot the bill. That is

I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.