28/11/2016 Scotland 2016

Can Nicola Sturgeon's visit to Ireland do anything to protect

The First Minister has begun a two day visit to Dublin,

hoping to strengthen ties following the Brexit vote.

As allegations of child sex abuse in football emerge, we hear from one

And will the Scottish Parliament back making it easier for gay

All of Scotland's First Ministers have made great play

In fact, it wasn't that long ago that Alex Salmond talked

about us being together in an arc of prosperity.

And they've changed yet again as a result of Brexit.

And that means Nicola Sturgeon's visit to Dublin this week has taken

The First Minister's keen to find friends in Europe who might help

maintain Scotland's position in the EU.

But with the Irish Government bound by diplomatic protocol,

We'll discuss in a moment, but first our political

correspondent Glenn Campbell has sent this from Dublin.

Question and - off what does Nicola Sturgeon have in common with John F

Kennedy, Nelson Mandela and ill Clinton? The answer- they have all

been invited to speak in the Irish parliament. -- Bill Clinton. While

Bill Clinton and the other presidents address both houses of

parliament the First Minister will speak to the upper House, the

Senate, but the Prime Minister or Taoiseach at the time of President

Clinton's as it says that is still a big deal. It will be an historic

occasion because Ireland and Scotland have an intimate

relationship going back over 1000 years. I think it is good that

somebody representing Scotland will now speak for Scotland and Ireland.

Since the EU referendum Nicola Sturgeon and the Irish Prime

Minister Enda Kenny have found common cause in trying to ensure

Brexit does not mean the UK leaving the European single market. Visiting

Scottish and southern energy's Dublin offices the First Minister

said that would minimise economic damage. The single market is a

market of 500 million people and they want to see Scotland stay

within that, not instead of free trade across the UK, but in addition

to that, because it is good for investment, jobs, living standards.

Here in Ireland that number one Brexit concern is the border. Under

the Peace Process you hardly notice crossing from the Republic into

Northern Ireland except that the road markings change colour. But if

the UK is leaving the European Union this year is that once again there

will have to be checks at this crossing point.

Both Irish and UK leaders have said they want to avoid Border Controls

in Ireland but some feel the best lead to achieve that would be for

Brexit to be cancelled. Having a second look at a major decision of

this kind is not the wrong thing to do. It is often the right thing to

do. We know in our own ways that sometimes we have to look again. But

Brexit really does mean Brexit the First Minister reckons Scotland will

be better able to deal with it if we work hand in hand with Ireland.

Well let's discuss what support Scotland might receive from Ireland

there might inform some of the options our own

In Brussels is Suzanne Lynch, who's European correspondent

for the Irish Times and in our Belfast studio

is the writer and broadcaster Dr Malachi O'Doherty

Can be Irish have sympathy with Nicola Sturgeon Re: Brexit or are

reading too much into this? It is a small deal. It is not a very big

one. He is to politicians like Tony Blair, going back to John F Kennedy,

address both houses together. That is where the real honour lies. The

Senate is not a very important body. It came very close to being

abolished in the last few years. It is not a big thing. I noticed in the

news from Dublin tonight that they only gave about ten seconds to the

coverage of the visit. And they went from that to a story about the

increased uptake in demand for Irish passports. It is not at the moment

being seen as a very big deal. Maybe tomorrow after she has made her

speech, but she made a speech tonight with Charlie Flanagan the

Foreign Minister, and she did make some indications of what her real

interest is. And real interest is to find what she calls differential

options. That is ways in which Scotland might maintain a sense of

being organically involved with the European Union after Brexit. And she

has gone to the right place to talk to people who are thinking that way

because they are dealing with the problem of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland. The Irish Government needs to maintain an

organic relationship with Northern Ireland and whatever model emerges

then Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland will be interested in that.

Ireland and the UK have always seen themselves as close partners in the

EU, the share a lot of common interests. Do you think the Irish

Government might welcome Scotland as a new EU partner instead and

therefore it might lend its support to continued membership if for

example Scotland were to go independence? This is one of the

things. But with great enthusiasm in the weeks after the referendum vote.

We can be quite humorous about this because for instance raft in Ireland

wanted to realign itself with Scotland. And stay in the European

Union. And people were making scenarios whereby Scotland and the

Irish Republic would form a new union. These are fantastical notions

but practically any idea you can come up with that preserves the link

between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland, and similarly

between Scotland and the rest of the European Union, any notion you come

up with debates the UK. But Scotland was an independent nation in the EU

that would be another vote at the heart of Europe alongside Ireland.

But Scotland with independent inside you that be would see a united

Ireland. And I think people disagree with the emphatically on that

because they do not see at with particular clarity but I think the

idea of Northern Ireland being lumbered inside a small UK led by

English Tories, I think Northern nationalists would recoil from that

quite sharply. I think if Scotland's goes then the next domino after that

is Northern Ireland. We are looking seriously at a united Ireland. I

think I am right in saying that you think Nicola Sturgeon should be

speaking as much to political leaders in Northern Ireland as

southern Ireland. The situation there is more complex. And southern

Ireland at as many people who are pro-EU, certainly the politicians

anyway, in Northern Ireland, it is rather different, you have got the

First Minister Arlene Foster who voted for Brexit, and the Deputy

First Minister Martin McGuinness voted to remain. That makes it more

difficult or Nicola Sturgeon in terms of finding friends in Northern

Ireland. And yet both Martin McGuinness and Arlene Foster are

addressing this problem. For all that they are completely divided on

whether Brexit should happen or not they have been corresponding with

Theresa May, they have been visiting Downing Street, they have been

taking part in the British Iris council, with a determination that

some kind of resolution be found that does not restore the Irish

border. And that problem as a massive problem. We could talk about

it in a theoretical way at this stage but it is a huge problem and

that goes to the heart of everything and that goes to the heart of the

Peace Process. How much I worry is that in Belfast, the idea of border

posts? I know both governments have said it is unlikely and they are

going to work make sure that it does not have to be anything but what do

you think? Northern nationalists and that includes more than nationalists

of the SDLP, the factor Unionists within Northern Ireland, many of

them would tilt towards the idea of a united Ireland if there was a

reinforced border, if the economy of the United Kingdom went into decline

after Brexit, and Scotland went for independence. If those three things

happen I think you will get a very strong move towards a united

Ireland, and I know I am seeing something that a lot of people find

outrageous and have not got the head around yet but that is the reality

of the situation. There are problems of you do not have Border Controls.

He will customs and pause differences in tariffs about

searching lorries? How would you combat illegal immigration into the

UK. If people find it difficult getting into the UK through Calais

they might find Ireland a softer touch. I was at a conference where

academics were saying there should be a new border drawn on the Irish

Sea and make Northern Ireland a semidetached member of the European

Union because of the land border with Ireland. That is something that

Unionists would find completely undesirable and Arlene Foster,

knowing that as an idea that is in the next, is simply rejecting it out

of hand completely. But either you are going to have some kind of

semidetached and ancient fort Northern Ireland in the European

Union and therefore our border in the Irish Sea, or you are going to

have a border across Ireland which is going to outreach Northern

nationalists, or you are going to have to come up with some idea that

nobody has thought of yet, and I think that is when Nicola Sturgeon

can come in. She must have ideas. She will see echoes of the Northern

and experience in Scotland because in both regions it majority voted

for remain, and once its integrity as a devolved units to be preserved,

what its integrity as a country to be preserved, therefore new ideas

have to come into play, and most things that I totally unviable and

tenable something happened by default. She may have lots of new

ideas and one of those ideas may be that if there is no border control

in Ireland, but why on earth should be one in Scotland Scotland was to

remain part of the EU single market. Do you think that there's an idea

that will fly? That is the obvious parallel. We have to find a way by

which Northern Ireland is part of Brexit and still has an open border

with the European Union. If we find it here then you can have it too.

These must be the idea is that she is discussing in Dublin. She must be

thinking along these lines because that is where the Irish situation

becomes fascinating I think from the Scottish perspective. Thank you.

A series of allegations of child sexual abuse and England have been

emerging and is now a Scot who says he was abused by former Crewe

Alexandra coach Barry Bennell. Dougie Gilligan says he was abused

in the 1970s. Barry Bennell, who used his position

as a football coach to abuse young boys

at a soccer camp. Dougie Gilligan met him on two occasions.

He would invite you to spend time with him that night and then as soon

as you were isolated...well, that's when it happened to me.

One other time, he asked about going fishing in the morning,

so staying over in his chalet with one of my friends,

So there was a little bit of a safety in numbers situation

there, but when both boys were sleeping then that's

He had his hands down my shorts. I gave him short shrift and told him

where to get off. Dougie Gilligan became a football coach him self. I

made sure I was not in a situation where I was in a one to one

situation with a child by myself. But also to protect the children,

any time there was that situation, I made the parents aware of it, that I

was not comfortable with it, and that should be something fundamental

going forward, there should not be the opportunity for coaches to be

one to one coaching with kids. We have disclosure now and you've

been through disclosure yourself with your own coaching activities,

is that sufficient, do you think? It's about kids feeling

that they have the opportunity to speak to people and that

they will be believed. In the past, what this is starting

to show just now, is that kids came forward and they weren't believed

and things were hushed up. What do you think

brings these predatory I think they see it as an

opportunity to get access to young children. He is now a little more

people to stick up because he believes that there are more abusers

and victims. Because of the stigma, people are reluctant to come

forward. I feel guilty that I did not speak up earlier. I could have

spoken up earlier and that could have maybe helps people. Sort of

people have been abused, in your situation perhaps, who have not come

forward, what should they do? I think this is an ideal opportunity

for people to make it known. Even from an anonymous perspective. To

try and make the police aware and people who are operating and doing

these kind of things. Make sure they are penalised for what they have

done. Dougie Gilligan speaking

to Reevel Alderson. Now, if you want to donate blood

and you happen to be a gay or bisexual man,

it's not as straightforward The rules say that you must abstain

from sex for one year. Well, in the Scottish Parliament

tomorrow a bid will be made If successful, Scotland

would be the first country The SNP MSP Rona Mackay

has tabled the motion. I spoke to her a little

earlier and asked if this It's about equality and inclusion. I

think it's long overdue that it was addressed. As a bit of my mission to

parliament last September and it achieved great cross party support

so I think that shows the level of feeling about it. I'm really pleased

that we were debated tomorrow. I think it will address a glaring

inequality amongst men who have sex with man being able to direct blood.

But it is not just about men who have sex with men. It also applies

to partners who inject drugs and those who might have sex with a

partners who have been sexually active in a country that has HIV. I

think it is discriminatory because it singles out gay men in a way that

it doesn't heterosexual people. For example, an monogamous man in a

stable loving same-sex relationship is banned from giving blood for one

it... Banned forgiving blood if they have given if they have had sex in

the last few months and a heterosexual person isn't. That is

basically targeting the sexual orientation of the person. But there

is evidence that men who have sex with other men have an increased

risk of getting blood-borne viruses. It is sometimes quite difficult to

detect these blood-borne viruses and that they have to wait up to a year

to be absolutely sure. Can she see the problems they have? The

screening for HIV has come on leaps and bounds in the past three

decades. This stems back to the 1980s when HIV and Aids first came

to the fore. There is excellent screening now. The evidence shows

that the incidence of HIV infection in him heterosexual people is on the

increase. That is not reflected. There is some evidence that the 12

months of therapy we could be reduced to three months. You think

it should be scrapped entirely? I'm in favour of everybody being asked

about the risk factors. Everyone should be asked about their sexual

behaviour and not just gay men. That could have a huge impact. I wonder

if the problem is that that will be replaced by a system have to give an

awful lot of the club sexual activity, which Michael off-putting.

Safety has to be paramount. That is at the forefront. It makes no sense

under the current. Gay men have to be singled out. They can donate

organs, they can donate themselves or another, the only criteria for

this is that they have to be fit and healthy. The fact they are singled

out when it comes to blood donations is very unfair. Plus, there has been

a decreasing level of blood donations in the past ten years. But

the great UK Government advisory committee is already looking into

the rules. Why not waited till next year instead of jumping the gun? I

don't think it is jumping the gun, it is taking the lead. The amount of

cross-party support shows the level of interest. I've had a huge amount

of people saying, thank goodness, at last, I'll be able to give blood

cause we desperately need the blood and one in four people at some point

in the life is a blood transfusion and if men can give us safely, why

not? Thank you. Here with me now to discuss

some of today's stories are the Herald's Scottish

political editor, Tom Gordon, and the Scottish Daily Mail's deputy

political editor, Rachel Watson. Tom, we have had Nicola Sturgeon in

Ireland today. It has a great many headlines in Ireland but hopefully

tomorrow we will have some better idea as to why she is there. Why is

she there? It is about promoting the notion of Scotland having a link

that is remains over the hole. She wants global membership of. She is

selling herself and that notion. That is a slow start, it was a blow

to make a huge difference. The Irish Government can't really enter into

Brexit talks, the British Government said it wanted that directly? Yes,

they're talking but they aren't having talks. She is just making

friends along the way, I think. Later on, she will call on those

favours but she will be making friends now. You think she is

talking behind the scenes and paving the way? I don't think that Ireland

are reaching the rules in any way but they are forming relationships

that may be viable is run. Do you think there is much point at all,

Rachel? Obviously, they want to have his view that the Scottish

Government and Nicola Sturgeon are promoting the UK staying in the

single market but we all know that down the road that these talks will

not be possible. They say that Scotland would be possible and that

Scotland would have a separate deal. At the end of the day, Nicola

Sturgeon once independence and she said tonight that this might be the

opportunity for that. This is helping promote an independent

Scotland in Europe and internationally. Of course, she is

representing what the Scottish people voted for. Yes, 62%. And what

about the issue of order controls, Nicola Sturgeon is trying to create

parallels between Ireland and Scotland and Mrs Beck, do you think

she is onto something when she said that right should be border control?

We don't know yet what will happen with Ireland when Brexit happens.

That is all open for discussion. Tom, Nicola Sturgeon has been all

but your work trying to... What is she trying to do? Is she trying to

get sympathy from Scotland's case? It's your tried to pave the way?

Some of that is just meeting the players that she might have to call

on in future. It is a conspicuous effort for the audience back home so

that if Brexit does not pan out as she once she can go to the country

and says that she put any real shift and that independence is the only

option. Ukip has a new leader, poor muscle is making a speech today. --

poor muscle. The country needs a strong Ukip now than ever before. If

you ceases to be an electoral force, there will be no impetus on Theresa

May and her Government to give us real Brexit. Rachel, doesn't he have

a point that if you voted for Brexit, one way to ensure that

Brexit happens is devoted Ukip? Well, they don't have anybody...

That was the point, to get Brexit. The point is now with Ukip, what

other going to do? He has to unify his party and come up with a new

mission for Ukip. We don't know what the Conservative Government have in

mind yet. She needs to come out and see it. It is a fair enough

strategy, isn't it? I agree with Rachel. I think he is fighting the

last battle. It is not up to Ukip or the UK Government it is up to the

other 27 nations in the EU. Fortran if you want but it won't deliver the

sort Brexit you once just like that. Perhaps even more interesting is

that rather than talking about Donald Trump the time that may be

Ukip should be targeting Labour voters, particularly in the north of

England. That says that not a bad strategy either. It doesn't seem

like a bad strategy but I undoubtedly work. You talk about the

north of England but I don't know if that would work or is that it would

be his message. What are Ukip going to say to these people? We don't

know what they would say. The argument is that if people in the

north of England voted for Brexit, it is natural territory for Ukip.

You might already think they have already sown the seeds in the north,

first of all, he has two address the internal dynamics of the party. It

has been shambolic after Brexit. It has to be that the party back

together. Right away, he talked about a project advert people who

were making life difficult for Brexit. Let's talk about more

serious issues. The nation this weekend as Ed Balls was a limited

from strength come dancing. Here is a bit of his worst bus. -- worst

bits. Rachel, why do politicians make

fools of themselves national television? I don't know, but it

definitely worked for Ed Balls. When he came in, people definitely

thought, what is he doing? I think he came across really well, though.

He really went for it and did not care what he looks like and had an

absolute blast. I think he has come across brilliantly. Politicians like

to show that they have a human side but he is the past but do you think

that he might return after this. It turns out that they are a redrawing

his old seat. He has first dibs on it as prospective Labour candidate.

He may well come back after strictly. I am rather critical of

these programmes that prey on these honourable politicians but I think

he has come about it well and has shown a different side to himself.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned but back in the day politicians were about

policies etc but now they want to be liked the time. Yeah, but I think

for him it is worked. I don't dig it would necessarily be like that for

everyone. I don't know if every politician would necessarily last

and how I do know what we drag -- what we drag. Do you think it has

the give an overall? Yes, you have to have the showbiz in politics

these days. Following in the footsteps of Donald Trump. Thanks

for that. That's it for tonight.

Thanks for watching. I'm back again tomorrow night,

usual time, so do please