Scottish Parliament Education Committee Scottish Parliament

The meeting of the education and skills committee in 2017. Can I

remind you to turn your mobile phones. Very keen the business of

the meeting goes ahead as normal. I would like to add, this committee

supports the statement made by the presiding Officer, First Minister

and party leaders in relation to the terrorist act in Manchester. Given

our role in the future of young people, it may be a member to have a

reflection on those who were injured and lost their lives in that

terrible event. We have received apologies from

Travis Scott, MEP, on a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association visit. The

committee has one piece of negative legislation to consider. These Serb

legislation is on the academic awards and this commission 's

universities Highlands and Islands score, 2017. Though the committee

have any comments to make on this? I don't have any comments to make. I

think it is a very welcome development. These and related

issues have been before the committee many times. A very

detailed process to get to this stage. Very good news. The second

item, sorry anyone else have any comments? The second item of

business, the committee's enquiry into teacher workforce planning for

Scotland's schools? We will hear from a selection of individuals on

the teacher advisory planning group. Can I work Alan Armstrong, strategic

director, Education Scotland. Catherine Callan. The general

secretary of the ADA chefs. Morag Redford, chair of the Scottish

Council of deans of education. John Stoner, and the general secretary of

the ADL S. I will kick us off with the first question. How can we link

workforce planning at the local level with the national setting of

ITE targets? Anyone like to begin? I will set the ball rolling. Last year

for the first time more of the local information was used in a very

productive way to try and inform the process. One of the issues is the

vacancies count, for a number of years the vacancies count has been

increasing. There was never a formal or robust way of actually putting a

number on the vacancies. You have to interpret what vacancies, when is a

vacancy a long-term vacancy? At what point of the year do you do this. A

survey was done. One of the issues would be to make that more robust.

Maybe even try to get into a state where you can put a number on it,

adding that into the intake. Right now it is used as background

intelligence, fundamental and central. There is also the issue of

supply teachers. For a number of years, the idea of the group, that

has been depleted. You have heard already the difficulties creates. In

terms of time in the school, pressure on teachers and

headteachers. Again, a more rigorous and careful look at the supply pool,

who is in the supply pool. Different types of teachers with different

attitudes, how much work they prepared to do. Some authorities

have permanent supply pools. Every two years they may well be

refreshed. Maybe going to full-time, permanent posts in school. They have

obviously earned the right to do that. The pools would be

supplemented again. All of that output into the category of the real

formalisation of the local intelligence. Just informing the

model, trying to put much more into the model by a more robust than

rigorous look at the issues. Also a full account of new demands. There

are continuing the new initiatives, extending modern language in the

primary school. Funding attainment challenges. All these issues. Always

curriculum changes. Curriculum developments. It is not always

clear, even curricula Max Evans, it changes the pattern and the nature

of the curriculum. A more detailed account of how these actually impact

schools on the ground, impacting the timetable, the work for the

teachers. I think these are some areas where we could make more

robust and local intelligence in terms of the National planning

model. The actual staffing is managed and delivered. Locally in

each of the 32 authorities. The actually marry these two things

together. I will come back to that later on. Asking one question, how

to interpret a vacancy? Why is that typical? It is such a large system.

Any day you ask an authority if they have vacancies, they will say yes.

Some of them will be filled within a week. Some will be filled within a

month. Some may be longer than that. Trying to define what is exactly a

long-term vacancy. Those are the ones presumably you need new people

to fill. It is they do with the churn. A big system, a lot of

movement. On any one day the number of pupils and teachers will be

different. The number of vacancies will change this is their any work

being done to create a process, that would make it much more simple? It

does seem very complicated, in the key method. I was not say it is

murky, it is complex. Maybe COSLA, who have been working

on that. When we agreed to work with the government, carry that out last

year. We were coming up to the teacher sensors. When the

information was gathered from councils, roughly towards the end of

September. What it was decided, in order to try and not place to

greater pressure on councils, to gather the information, we would

carry out the exercise at roughly the same time. He did not require

a complex process. It took some time a complex process. It took some time

to gather the information. In retrospect, probably, and there were

some questions that were not asked in quite the same way. As with

refinement and reflection. If we are refinement and reflection. If we are

going to carry out the exercise again, we will have to have

conversations, to get the right questions asked. Very briefly, can I

be quite clear about this. Is there a definition of vacancy rate that

you accept as being adequate? I think that is one of the issues, how

you interpret, if you are asked how many vacancies, how long you fathom.

There are different interpretations, what is a journeyman vacancy. What

is a post that is just about to be filled. There is still some work on

getting a definition that you can ensure the data is absolutely robust

and consistent. When there is a publication of vacancy rates across

different authorities, are they using different definitions and

measures? They have never been asked in specific hard detail, how many

vacancies do you have at this point in time? In the way the people

sensors is done. It took many years for that pupil census approach to be

so robust, there is little possibility of misinterpretation.

The same process would have two be done for the vacancies. -- pupil

census. It was done to establish the vacancy rate, something that we have

been pushing for, in terms of making sure we had that the right, before

we embarked on trying to plan for the new teachers. When we are giving

vacancy rate statistics, are you saying they are not accurate? I

don't know whether accurate would be the answer. Depends on who filled in

the form, how they interpreted the vacancy, and you have many different

people putting in different data, the issue is how you make sure the

answers they give are robust and reliable. The point at which they do

them is also important. JoAnn Munster ask a question. Let's not

get held up in this one issue. Clearly work that needs to be done.

I'm wondering what work is done where a school, for example, may

have had a computer science teacher, and there is a vacancy, but they

decide we're not going to find somebody. There stops being a

vacancy, they stopped providing those courses. To what extent do

local authorities and schools managing the vacancies, by

redesigning the staffing. That must have an impact on recruitment for

teacher training. Anecdotally, my sense is that we leaves speciality

teachers in primary and secondary schools. Is that captured? An issue

that the group has been looking at? It is not captured anywhere. I'm

sure there will be examples in secondary schools, maybe Jim with

one to answer this, where a headteacher has two plant in the

knowledge there are certain subjects they may not be able to get a

teacher for. They teacher leaves, for example, there will be some

examples of that. I do not think there is any data for it. Maybe I am

imagining this. We know certain schools will not offer certain

advanced Highers. Certain courses they have to offer. I wonder whether

you have a role in ensuring the diversity of specialist teachers?

Whether that is helped by the workforce planning? Otherwise it is

feeding off itself. You cannot get somebody running the course, don't

look for the teacher, we don't train teachers in that subject. There are

two parts to the answer. The first thing comes down to Miss Smith's

point. Whenever the survey is conducted, it will change from day

today. The vacancy may be filled tomorrow, a further vacancy may

arise to Murrow, with circumstances beyond our control. There is an

issue, we have got useful information through the survey,

conducted, and that survey is only as accurate as it can be on the date

was conducted. That fits into that part of the discussion as well.

Again, to answer the question, schools remove subject to the

curriculum because there is not a teacher available. It is not

entirely down to the whole notion of having a teacher available. There

will be other factors. To answer your particular question, there may

well have been, and is to say, there will be schools where the curriculum

has been adjusted. They will come to the arrangement with the school down

the road to share the teaching the subject, on account of not getting a

teacher at that particular point in time where the curriculum needs to

be delivered. It is particularly pertinent where a teacher moves out

of the school for whatever reason, when you are partway to records.

There are ways in which you have to start to engage with the school down

the road to make sure that aspect for the course gets delivered. You

have a question? Yes, not unrelated to this. Last week, when we heard

from Lawrence Finley, from Moray Council. We had an interesting

discussion about whether councils should be more active in looking for

local people who might become teachers, rather than hoping people

will like to become teachers through the usual process. I would be

interested to hear your views on this. The related point in terms of

the formula we are using to workforce plan, do you think it is

the correct one? Do we have to make more adjustments? I think it does

relate to the first question very much. The point that Mr Dornan made

about local information. The point is that Lawrence made last week

about making sure the trading places are where the gaps are is very

important. I'm not sure that is something that has been totally

cracked. As an advisory group, we have pushed for a reallocation of

places, but that is not something that can be done in one fell swoop.

Needs to be done gradually, for universities to respond. And have

enough people to train the teachers. In terms of the current methodology,

the model, I think it we look at the information that we have in terms of

where it is working and where it is not working, two particular

challenges are the rural aspect, outside of main urban centres, and

secondly in relation to specific subject areas. I think some of the

things we've been doing over the last couple of years where, for

example, John was touching on that we engage more with local authority

intelligence in relation to subject areas and rural pressures, is the

way to go. But, I would caution here to say that the way you take it into

account is through an arithmetic modelling procedure. A lot of this

is down to specific circumstances and some of the initiatives we begin

to undertake are addressing these things rather than coming up with a

perfect model that will land you the right number of teachers in five

years' time, say. An interesting point, are you suggesting that we

are too tired to a rigorous model and that we should open it up a

little more? The point is well made, and you've got to be careful, I

think, to look at the journey that we have moved with the model. The

model is much more sophisticated than it was. It is much more, to

call it and arithmetic or model, it is, that is what models are but it

is becoming more informed by research at a local level. There is

still a bit of that journey to go in relation to better information on

the back of more expansive research, and if we are going to look for

examples as we did in the last age profile of teachers which was a

fairly blunt way of looking at it, because the landscape changed.

Pension arrangements change, for example. Then, you start to look at

a different way of identifying where the gaps may rise and fall in five

years' time, and the sophisticated model landscape could better

informed that long-term view in the number of people we bring into the

profession and perhaps start two inform us of when they could be a

shortage later on. A long-term view of a sophisticated planning model,

allowing us to get more detailed information, addressing local and

geographical issues but there needs to be something underlying that as

well, which will identify specific challenges which, for example, exist

within Northeast rural Scotland in relation to teacher numbers, per se,

and particular curricular areas in the demand model. Thank you. My line

of questioning follows on from this. Fundamentally, this is a supply and

demand issue that you are tackling. Your supply of teaching

professionals compared to the need for them in schools. May I ask, are

those two elements modelled separately, because I am slightly

concerned that you are talking about vacancies? Vacancies is the delta

between the two. What you have is a national planning model. So, it

looks at the data at a national level, in terms of the number of

teachers that we already have, the number of people qualified to become

teachers, and the gap that would be projected to exist in any particular

year. Add to that the refinements in terms of leave rates, returners, all

of the issues that affect the population of either the students

qualifying, or the teachers in the system in a particular year. Then

there is the attempt to come up with a number that is either surplus or

deficit, in recent years it has been a deficit and that number informs

the intake for the universities. However, in terms of what is

actually happening on the ground, it is local authorities that manage and

determine the staffing levels in schools. They do it by different

methods. So, Duke got different things in different authorities. It

makes it complicated. You have a national approach, but you've got

local staffing and different ways of staff in schools locally. So in your

answer, you outlined the modelling of the supply of teachers? And that

the demand is down to local authorities. What attempt is there,

or what methodology do you have for modelling that demand? You look back

on previous years, basically, and you are able to see what happens to

the profession in terms of the stay on rate, or the retention rate,

within authorities. Or, the lever rate, the return rate. You can look

at the age profile. So you are modelling the future based on

looking at a three or five-year rolling average the past. It is like

stocks and shares. You are trying to predict the future based on the

behaviour in the past. But no statistical model can account for

the behaviour of individuals or employers. I totally understand. It

is the individual point but what you can do is talk to local authorities

and find out what they're forward plans are? To what extent do you get

that information from local authorities, not only on what

happened in the last three years but in the future three years? That is

where partners provide = -- COSLA with more information and make it

more bust. It would be difficult to predict in three years' time how

many teachers they would require. That is the challenge you and the

King at in supply and demand and pop-up -- 's looking at in a supply

and demand and supply system. Teachers and education programmes

would not normally plan on an annual basis, which is the way the

committee response using the PGD qualification to raise and lower the

number of teachers, to enter the workforce at the end of the year.

The university planning cycle does not actually a line easily with the

local authority planning cycles, which is one of the challenges of

the new advisory working group and what they will need to tackle. That

is you confusing supply with demand. I totally accept that modelling

supply is difficult, it is about individual choice, you don't know

whether people leave the profession or not, various things. I would have

thought demand is based on two things. The number of children you

want to teach and how you want to teach them. Like subjects and class

sizes. It should be relatively predictable. We know how many

children we want to teach in advance as there is a five year the time for

them reaching primary school. Is that straightforward to model? UC

variables... When a teacher wants to retire, for example, very often they

do not tell the authority until two months before they retire. That is

supply, but what about demand? It is a demand, if that teacher leaves,

the authority has a demand for that teacher. It is difficult to monitor

precisely. A couple of authorities have a threshold model of staffing.

0- 15 would be so many teachers, 15-20 would be so many other

teachers... One people either side of that threshold is another more

less. You only need to get those teachers wrong by a couple and you

have a difficulty. You could ask authorities to do that and they

could do that. Whether it would be more accurate then doing it at a

national level would be the question. It could be done. So,

local authorities are not modelling their future demand like that, it is

separate to supply? They are not asked to do it... Do you think that

the issues. It is for the group to the issues. It is for the group to

consider and could formalise local intelligence and bring it more into

the mainstream of the model. Thank you. Before I move onto the next

questions, myself and my colleague, Ruth Maguire, met with teachers last

week. We agreed to ask the questions that they were asking us but what

seems pertinent given this discussion here was that, asked by

one of the teachers and supported by many others, why our schools still

run by education authorities. Would anyone like to take that on? I don't

want to be flippant but maybe that is a political question... You must

have an opinion? On whether you think it is the best way to deal

with it? From our point of view, we would not have an opinion on the

politics of it. I am here to represent us, but we would want to

ensure that all of the functions can be required at a appropriate level.

In local government organisation that was the view that we took.

Whatever the politics work the structures were. And all of the

functions that protect children and ensure quality education, they are

ticked in terms of functional analysis. Does it come as a surprise

to you, that, for the simple reason, there are complex areas within

schools and the pupils that they work with, that require other

services to be part of that engagement? Social care, for

example. Housing. Economic growth, I suppose, as well. It can govern how

a community changes, and what educational services are required as

perspective, I agree with John. It perspective, I agree with John. It

is a political question. May I remind the panel and everyone

else I am asking a question that I was asked to ask.

Thank you. Just looking at the subject specific issues we have with

recruitment, what are your thoughts on what efforts can be made in the

professional sectors from which you can draw on people with those

skills? Like Stem subjects that are discussed in this regard. In

personal experience, the technology department at my school were staffed

by engineers who took early retirement, is there more work that

can be done on this targeted approach to recruitment in subjects

that have acute shortages? It was referred to earlier, that kind of

grown your own approach that started in Aberdeenshire. At Aberdeen

University. And the University of Highlands and Islands, we are

looking at that with a local approach. For those who work in

local areas, can we reconvert them into teachers? That has been done

recently with limited success in the oil industry for Aberdeen. So, I

think a lot more needs to be done, and can be done, to look at the

resources we already have and a temptation to look at the resources

you don't have. In my experience. It is important to see if we can

convert existing teachers or staff, employees, their run many employees

and councils who work with children already. If they have a degree,

could they convert into teaching? There is also the wider job about a

recruitment programme. I know that the Scottish Government had already

embarked on a recruitment programme for teachers. Somehow, I think the

big issue is we need to make the job more attractive in every way for

teachers, if we are really going to tackle these issues. The shortfalls

are significant in areas like technology. Areas like home

economics, computing, religious and moral education. He is struggling.

-- PE is struggling. We need to focus on those areas. Trying to

model how many teaches you need in those subjects for individual

subject is, I would say, nearly impossible to do. The issue that

John Lamont raised, some subject that less involved. We do need to

continue to run them. And let me reinforce the point that Jim made, a

number of schools are operating in authorities in consortium with each

other. There will be secondary subjects and if there is every

ordered Corti there will be efforts to try and fill the gap in whatever

way possible. This is I would add to John's point,

the whole term of long-term planning. The issue which is the

Ishii on teacher supply. That supply has varied, and changed given the

shift in the economy, for whatever reason. You click on an issue which

is a real live issue for schools and the group. Two aspects on it, we may

hear from the General teaching Council, on the specific targeted

approaches taken to modulate the things you have identified. There is

honestly and need in the long-term for the profession, within the

profession, if we are going to influence people that teaching is a

worthwhile profession to pursue. We are in the best position as teachers

to do that. We are critically aware of the important task within

developing the young workforce. For example, to say teaching is a

realistic and worthwhile option to look at in relation to your future

career. There is a long-term part of it, and a short-term part of it, to

look at the specific things was with a view, within the model, which we

are trying to promote and develop, to ensure that the supply part of

this actually looks at the man part in a much more positive way. Also

the pathway is very important for attracting people into the

profession. And he easily pathway, so you can move from industry, a

second career, to a third career in teaching, in different points in

your career pathway. As an individual, in any age. Some of the

creative work teaching Council has been looking at easing the

arrangements of that. Also the ways that the universities have

responded, with the new pathway groups into the profession, helping

in the long-term. Universities have had success in recruiting. To these

new programmes. Although the one in Aberdeen was not as successful as we

first thought when it started. A lot of local work going on in my

institution, the University of Highlands and Islands, we are

working with local authorities to recruit locally. Our experience is

that there is a need within the national system to look at the local

information and local need. But for that to be recognised, in the way

the national planning is done. A small point about creating

incentives for people to come into teaching later on. I don't know

whether there are figures for the models, back in the day, when you

started teaching. 22, looking at early retirement at 55. In all

working lives, people are doing different things. What are the

incentives building into teaching, for people to take the risk, to come

out of another job, going to teaching as a late stage? One

suggestion is a paid incentive, for shortages. A paid incentive,

differentiate by subject. Secondly, have you looked at the possibility,

if somebody has a lot of experience in industry, don't come in at the

same level as someone who has graduated from you can bring them in

at a higher point in the pay scale? Something you are looking at,

something that your sales would contemplate? I think those are

decisions for local authorities themselves to make, in terms of

incentives. There are some offering golden hello is, to some people.

Effectively holding people to remain for a minimum number of years in the

teaching profession. That hast to be looked at in the context of an

agreed pay and conditions package for teachers. If there are

incentives, they are offered as the local level, based on the ability of

the councils to offer that. If there is a need, and the pressure on

particular subjects, that will be a focus. There are some examples

already in existence of the activity taking place. Not about to write a

incentives, but support on something like housing. So they are not direct

paid, but in kind, I suppose. It is not having specific conversations,

saying we need a pay scale. Someone will give up a well paid job in

industry to come teaching, and be not expected to be on a salary of

someone coming at the University at 22. We're looking at that, drawing

on experience, people on different stages of their career. Specifically

realising, if we are not competing with each other, but competing with

sectors which will pay relatively well. If it matters, are we willing

to pay the extra money to get stem subject teachers into schools? There

is already a hit in the terms and conditions that allow us teachers to

be paid higher up the scale, based on previous experience. I don't know

how much that is used. From some of the examples I have seen, the

recommendation is about the quality of the learning, the CPD the

individual is undertaking in order to demonstrate they are meeting the

standard required. Councils individually or look at that, in the

context of each person applying for a post. It is correct, there is

provision within the scale. It does sometimes cause confusion about

where people can start. And what they think they are entitled to.

However, there are methods within the current system that cellular. It

appears it is possible to do it. But does not get done. Is that a broad

answer? I think we don't know to what extent it is used. That has

come up on other issues. There is some discretion. There is an obvious

answer to attract people from higher salaries into teaching. It is

limited to what extent authorities can work within the scheme, to make

it attractive to people coming from the tech in science industries.

Authorities have tried generally to put incentives to get teachers in.

The bottom line, they are finding there are not enough people applying

for the jobs they have. That is the bottom line. I think we could

maximise the discretion and power we have, and we would still have a

shortfall. I am expecting that to get better over the next few years.

Given the work that the teaching, workforce, planning advisory group

is done. In most of the degrees, there is a four year lag between

turning on the tap and the water coming out of the other end. You

wanted to come in briefly? A small supplementary discussion, because

remuneration is not the only incentive for people. There are more

and more people wanting to work part-time, have flexibility around

their working life. Don't want to apply for full-time posts.

Traditionally, I get the impression that people he wanted that

flexibility will used to go to supply, but they are not doing that.

Is there anything that can be done, in terms of recruitment, you could

have flexibility around your working, but stability around the

contract? There are vast numbers of permanent teachers on John O'Shea

contracts, or part week contracts. It is not uncommon, very, very

common. One of the complexities for our planning, to get a handle on the

impact of that. If you have planned on the basis that a set proportion

of teachers will come out of the other end of the training, and they

will fill full-time posts, but a number of them end up on job share,

part-time posts, for whatever reason, personal reasons that

dictates they want to do that. All of a sudden, the numbers can be

quite a way out. Especially if there is a transition in behaviours. That

is a really important point. A growing feature of the workforce. It

adds that the complexities. Some people are quite worried about the

numbers, significantly increasing them and the difficulties of that

means, in the school, managing twice the number of personnel then they

would previously have had to do. In the national figures, you can see it

increasing, reports are that it is becoming difficult, the workforce is

changing. The nature of mobility in the workforce is changing. There is

less capacity for people to move these days. Much less willing to

move. You heard that from the students themselves, in terms of

where they expected the job is to be order placement. It is a changing

demographic. May ask information about some of the graduates coming

out, particularly the PGD programmes. A lot of the people

coming to the programmes would be defined as career changes. The

average age of entry to PGD programmes is 25. Most entrance into

the one-year programmes have considerable work experience in a

variety of areas. In relation to the discussion about a variety of

conditions when going into work. The majority of PGD graduates would have

other work experience, and would expecting be considered within any

measures introduced. Layers, you have one? One clarification related

to what Doctor Redford has just said. Do we have reliable statistics

about the number of teachers coming in from different routes, including

those who may come from industry, or with bursary support? Do we have

reliable numbers about the Fresno that information, you would have to

ask the universities. Universities collect that within the statistics.

It is collected on annual basis. Claire you wanted to talk about

flexibility. I do want to pick up the point Julian made about

flexibility. You said earlier in the session, John Studdard, we need to

make teaching more attractive. Ken said it is crucial to attracting

people into teaching, although it runs counter to that. Talking about

flexible contracts, job sharing, and so on. We have heard evidence about

the lack of flexible working opportunities. A lack of job share

opportunities. Comments that teaching is less flexible than other

profession. I was keen to hear what the panel's comments were on those

issues? As I said earlier, certainly from my membership, teachers and

principals, there are vast numbers of judges, part-time contracts, in

the teaching staff. Much less so for headteachers. I'm not sure whether

that was the evidence you heard. Very few instances where there are

headteachers job sharing. Is there a reason for that? Certainly I know a

fair number of headteachers who have requested reduced hours or job

sharing, and they have been turned down. I can only relate that to the

fact that local authorities are struggling to recruit headteachers.

They would be struggling to fill the other parts of the job. Anyone else

have a comment on that particular point about headteachers? Again

parade and I come from different sectors. We have a different

perspective on life. On this occasion, very similar in relation

to the way the Scottish workforce has developed and expanded in the

past 15, 20 years. I cannot think of a secondary headteacher who is

involved in the job share partnership. Below that level, just

about every other level within secondary education there will be

job shares, through the whole system. That does run counter to

some of the information the committee has her. I am merely keen

to observe the rationale, particularly the concern about the

number of people applying for headteachers, saying if you are

part-time and not interested in you. It is a big question. There is a lot

in there. There is already an issue about the supply of headteachers.

Headteachers are visible to the rest of the school community. They are

the recruitment pool for the next the recruitment pool for the next

headteachers. They are seen people working long hours, budgets reduced,

staffing, in terms of management time and management posts being

reduced. The job at the moment, probably becoming less appealing. It

would be difficult for a local authority to say yes to a job share,

because they will not be able to fill the gaps. I can see it from

both sides. Can I just add, there's the report

for government recruitment and selection of headteachers, you

included the reference to that report in your papers. We

interviewed a lot of deputies and headteachers. We did not come across

any evidence that people were not applying because it was not

flexible. It was more the kinds of reasons that Greg has talked about,

demands of the job, accountabilities of the job to children, parents,

authorities and government. Sometimes the stress of not having

enough cover in management time to do the job. It is the stresses and

a lack of support to actually carry a lack of support to actually carry

out that job. They found it quite a lonely job in terms of support, in

terms of both the mental ship in that kind of thing but also the

budgets -- mentorship. And support staff around the school. They found

it more demanding and some deputies found that there was not a huge

incentive to become head teacher. When they saw the job. Personally,

particularly in women's cases, you could look at it and think that is a

step too far in terms of the demands and stresses, why would I put myself

and my family up for that stress? I have to say I find it quite an

extraordinary statement, to single out females? Looking at jobs in a

particular way? What I meant to say was that sometimes men just see it

as a competition, and they take it as a challenge. Sometimes women, in

my experience is speaking to all of these people, took a more whole life

approach to it. And thought, the additional stress and anxiety is not

worth struggling sometimes. That's a personal view, sometimes men take

those decisions without necessarily considering the implications... I

think we will move on from that. Although I am keen to know why the

door seems to be closed to part-time or job share, if local authorities

do not advertise these posts as being flexible, then how do they

know that there is no demand for deputy headteachers to apply for a

part-time or a job share head post? There is demand, because people do

ask for it. I know of many members that I have spoken to who have been

asking their local authority for just that. They have not been unable

to do that. So it is local authorities closing the door on that

option? That is my understanding. Also, we hope the -- heard the

evidence for Elizabeth Marshall, in your first evidence session. Her

description of her reasons for deciding to leave the profession in

the first quarter of this year, we had 70 members who stepped down from

headship or left the profession altogether -- 17. It was in response

to workload issues. Over the same period, the first quarter last year,

we only had five members doing that. None of them were talking about

workload as the key driver. There were other issues in those five

cases. That is just from cases that have gone to area officers

supporting people making that decision. Can I ask very briefly

about the other end of the profession? We heard about the

probation being inflexible. Do you have any thoughts on how it could be

made more attractive as a part-time job share, especially for people who

may be coming through with a PGD qualification? Well, there is an

option just now where you would have two asked the General teaching

Council. When students graduate and going to

induction here, they can choose to do induction and take a one-year

post with a local authority. Through that, they are supported or could

choose to meet the standard for full registration through a flexible

route which entails working a set number of days within schools. The

support system with that, there isn't one because they are not

connected to the structures that a local authority has two support

teachers on an induction year programme. There is an option, at

the moment, the universities do not really have any further information

about that, students leave us and going to the induction year and we

do joint work during the induction year with local authorities because

that is part of the teaching qualification. It isn't just about

what you do in the university setting but about the induction year

in local authorities and completing the standard for full registration.

I suppose it is an area nationally that we could explore in relation to

offering other routes to completing the standard for full registration.

You can ask the next Parliament that question. Thank you very much.

Joanne Lamont? How difficult are we making it for teachers? There have

been people with great experience, but they are not in a position to do

placements, they may not even want to take the risk of losing a salary

for a year in order to train. I want what you done in order to make sure

that year teacher education is more flexible. It's like when I was a

Jordan Hill. Generally, it feels that you have placements where you

do stuff, but the pressure surrounding making the placement in

a particular place, there is no flexibility or caring

responsibilities. Or, what income you have. It seems that someone

still presumes that someone is 22 years old, with family support which

allows them to do placements. How do you factor in caring

responsibilities into placements? How could you change the year's

education and are there any means by which you could train as a teacher

while keeping your job? Could you do it part-time flexibly? Yes, there

are two routes currently where you can do that. University of Aberdeen

has run what is called a Daylight Programme, with authorities in the

north and east, particularly Aberdeenshire, Murray and Highland,

where local authority employees are supported to career change and they

complete the Aberdeen University programme over a period of 18

months. That is a structured part-time taught programme.

University of Dundee last year introduced a similar programme in

response to local authority requests and is currently working with Perth,

Kinross and Angus. Both of those universities will expand those

programmes to offer them across the country. The University of the West

of Scotland is running a programme with Dumfries and Galloway, I do not

have the full information on that programme but I think it has

involved staff being released for a year. My own university has worked

very closely over the last year, where they have supported their own

employees and other people living and committed to living on the

islands to complete a one-year PGD programme. The authority chose to

offer financial support, you heard from one of our students earlier.

And that person, when they successfully complete that year,

they have agreed to work with the authority in induction year. And for

one year beyond, I think. There are a range of other programmes where we

are looking at condensed, telescope programmes that will bring new

teachers into the workforce on a faster route. And universities

would, I think, be particularly keen for some of that range. There are 11

different programmes, 13 including that new programme with the

University of Edinburgh that you heard about, the oil based programme

in Aberdeen. Universities would be keen that we evaluate these routes

and the success of them. And, look to learn from that. Then, look at

what you have referred to as a traditional model. The question of

placement came up a lot in the evidence that we got from people

where it becomes a burden and a block, not so much actually being in

the school with staff, lowering the question of consistency of

mentorship because of the pressure on staff but not being given much

notice or not being suitable, not factoring in... You won't be able to

drive, you have caring responsibilities. You have to look

after children yourself. Do concerns get fed into the process of... It

doesn't feel like a difficult job to me to have placements that meet the

pressures that students are under, has that issue come up to you? I

will take that one. We haven't, aside from last year, been

particularly clever in engaging with students and the placement

experience. We have moved very definitely towards a system now

where schools cannot opt out of being a school in which there will

be a placement it is assumed that schools will be opted in. It takes

away the power of negotiation, checking within a university, that

says that school does not accept people on placement. It is now

accepted that schools take people on placement unless there are

pre-identified circumstances. For example, the principal teacher of

the biology department has been absent for a particular time. We

wouldn't want to put a student into that. It should change the emphasis

and perhaps introduce into the system the greater flexibility is

that you are looking for in relation to being able to match a student who

cannot drive to a school which is in their local area. As opposed to,

let's pick it off the list because those are the only schools on the

list. There are many more on the list now than there were before. You

would also categorise by, if we actively try and encourage people

with a working life and who have families to go into teaching because

we recognise there is a shortage, why make it difficult? Offering

places when they are older with family responsibilities? It factors

in that particular part, the individual difficulties experienced

by a student. Whether a 22-year-old or a 41-year-old. It enables the

University to have a significantly greater degree of flexibility, and

the ability to match, if not target, particular demands and requirements,

circumstances, of a student. Into the schools that they have available

to them. Universities and local authorities have been working

closely with the GTCS who manage that for us, including that key one

for us about most schools being available for automatic placement,

when they have been made. It is actually quite rare for students to

enter up being asked to travel a considerable distance. I think it is

important that you know that the university 's work very closely with

students and they listen to them. They respond to issues that are

raised about placement, as we do with any other aspects of other

programmes. I think it was significant, definitely a theme

across the evidence that we have got, that it was felt it was not

factored in. It created unnecessary stress at a stressful time anyway. I

wonder, very briefly, if a school has top ten and has chosen not to,

and we are now seeing... Cash has two opt in. You have two opt out?

Why would people do that? There would be specific factors within

that school, certainly within the second sector in individual

departments within that school, but specific and identified. Thank you.

Ross? Coming back to this issue of mobility, particularly in my region,

I represent the north-east where there are chronic shortages of

teachers. We heard from trainee teachers that there is a tendency to

gravitate towards the central belt, taking positions elsewhere. We have

heard about local incentives, we have had the golden hellos, helping

with Brent and housing. But when I asked last week, Lawrence Finlay

from Murray Council said that he would favour a national scheme with

local flexibility, purely because of the risk of local authorities trying

to outbid each other. I was wondering if you could talk to me

about what you think the risk is surrounding competition with local

authorities, and what sort of national scheme could be beneficial,

what would that look like? My colleagues could jump in on the risk

side of it. There's a real need to make sure that people are trained in

the right places. There has been a structural unemployment problem

within that workforce, that there are people in the central belt

without jobs and they are not willing to travel. Meanwhile, there

haven't been enough people in the north-east or the Highlands, or

Dumfries and Galloway. The situation, I think, has worsened a

little bit. There are issues about supply all over the country at the

moment. The evidence you are given was very

clear: students were not willing to travel. They wanted to go somewhere

they were familiar with. The knowledge about the demand for

teachers and a particular area should feed into have money trading

places are in each university. What we will end up with, in terms of the

teacher workforce planning and individual initiatives will be a

national model, supplemented by local partnerships, like the

Northeast Consortium. A group of authorities and the university

trying to fill particular needs for a particular area. That is the way

it will pan out. Great's point is worth reinforcing. The figures

suggest that if you trained all the people in the places where there was

a demand, and you are able to match that in terms of geographical

structure, we would have much less of a difficulty. The other thing I

would like to make the committee whereof, there are a lot of demands

on schools, meetings the demands for these places. Schools in central

Glasgow could get several requests from one university, that may cover

the four year course. And from other universities, to be in the same

time. It is actually quite difficult to meet the demand for places

generally, to meet everybody's individual needs in terms of whether

they want them, quite demanding challenge for universities and the

schools themselves. Certainly when I worked in Aberdeen, I found the

universities tended to gravitate toward the centre of the city as

opposed to Aberdeenshire and Moret, because it was more convenient. And

there were cost implications about sending students and tutors out of

the far-flung places of Scotland. There are a number of factors about

how we try to structure the system so we are training people in the

places where they are likely to end up. That is what the research tends

to show, most student teachers end up in the areas they are trained in.

I think there is some evidence, in Scotland, in terms of financial

incentives we have tried to use, it has got the effect of encouraging

people not originally from a rural area into a rural areas. There is

evidence from down south about this, it actually it is not affected.

Although you may get people to move into an area initially, they will

take the money for that period, but the retention if they are not from

that area can be very poor. I think John is right, starting further back

in the process, thinking about people in an area, encouraging them

to think about a career in teaching would be the most sustainable

approach to take. It is not just money, it is thinking in a more

sophisticated way about tackling these issues. Thank you very much

for that. I would like to pick up, Doctor Redford, in one of the

answers you get earlier, you talked about the scheme in Aberdeen,

getting people made redundant from gas into teaching. You said it had

not been a success. The numbers have been really low, in terms of those

going into the teaching profession in particular. Why do you think that

is? What could've been done differently? I don't have detailed

information about it. I understand it was perhaps the people he came

into the scheme, some of them did not have a full understanding of

what they were about to undertake, in schools, and the initial

experience in schools was not the career they thought they were

getting into. I think they are the main reasons why some people began

the programme and dropped out. John may have more information. Sorry.

Across the North of Scotland, we have seen the number of registered

supply teachers fall. In Aberdeen city can has been a 30% drop in the

number of supply teachers. Many older teachers making up the

majority of supply teachers. What is putting them off? Do you think it is

changes in the curriculum? The greater workload, which we spoke

about already. In relation to headteachers. Why do think it is we

have seen such a fall in supply teachers, particularly when many

people in the classrooms, given the vacancies? A more general point, Mr

Thompson, over the place, I would argue, the latest work we're in the

advisory group, we're getting more accurate at the time in the national

picture. In terms of the total requirement for teaching versus the

total number of teachers available. Some of you may remember several

years, is almost seven or eight years ago we have the opposite

problem. We are very touched on that, arguably we had too many

teachers. A huge concern about jobs. Rather perversely by getting more

accurate, therefore around the edges, and supply teaching is around

the edges, there will be naturally be less people available for that

part of the market, if we can call it that. There are other aspects in

relation to supply, which I'm not so well qualified to comment on. The

more precise you get about predictions around about the edges

it will become much tighter. Colleagues will come in. You need

almost 10% more than you planned workforce, in order to have enough

to cover the day in February when everybody gets flu. Of course a very

tricky act to pull off. You will then have teachers on the supply

list he would much rather be doing more work and more regular work, and

more guaranteed work. Hence the number of authorities who have

permanent supply pools they refresh every two years. The lack of supply

is a symptom of the fact there are fewer people available for work as

teachers. That's cool went down, in the same way the supply teachers

went down. In many cases, when jobs to come up, they are also being in

part filled, maybe not the group of staff you have talked about you have

retired, and are happy to do a day or two week. There are never group

looking for full-time employment. Traditionally 20 years ago that was

the route in for many teachers into full-time employment. Many people

started that way to get their foot in the door, getting experience and

reputation. Then having a full-time job. You can see their is a lot of

work to be done. If the government gets its slightly over, you will

have lots of complaints, as you did eight, nine years ago, about

teachers being unemployed, trained for unemployment. You can hear the

headlines. I remember Michael Russell answering the question on a

radio phone in programme. If you get it wrong the other way, and

authorities cannot staff the schools, it makes it difficult for

them to statutory obligations to provide education. A very fine

balancing act. I find it amazing how close the government manages to get

the figures. It is a tricky one. Two points. John has picked up on one of

them. Related to the make-up of the supply pool was, ten, 15 years ago.

John well described the nation of young people coming from teacher

education, finding themselves about the job, finding themselves on the

supply pool, fulfilling a function in the supply school chilly pool in

schools. Gaining experience leading them into a job. Moving the system

on a bit, to a point in time where there are going teacher shortages.

These people gradually incorporated an assimilated into the system. The

other part of the supply pool make up from a folk you have a further

type he still felt they had something to offer to the

profession. Over that period of time they get that through coming on to

the supply pool from the supporting schools in that way. Again, running

it forward, ten, 15 years ago. The tomography is such, these people no

longer feel they are able to do that. In a period where there are

teacher shortages, soaking into the system, it diminishes the supply

pool, in terms of people coming in. People who perhaps return to

teaching profession themselves the supply pool and suddenly

incorporated into the system. At that point, the elder members of the

supply pool have decided life holds other things, other than going into

being at each of the other day. We are in a cyclical situation right

now. We have already touched on GTS criteria, flexibility of that. Would

you agree, it should be made more flexible to allow more highly

skilled individuals, you have some experience of teaching, whether that

is abroad, languages, youth work, coming into teaching. Do you believe

a teach first style system would be one option in doing so? Universities

do not believe the teach first structure offers the same depth of

learning and establishing a professional identity. And

development of skills. In the structure they have used in England

and Wales, where teach first employees are based in schools, and

in recent years, they have completed a postgraduate certificate on a

part-time basis while teaching. The Council of deans feel strongly the

model we have developed in Scotland, the one your PGD convocation, and

timing University establishing the learning and reflective skills to be

able to respond to different teaching situations, combined with

half of the time in schools, working with experienced practitioners, it

is a stronger way to develop the workforce. It is also a way to bring

people into the workforce, retaining them in the teaching workforce. The

statistics of people retained after completing Teach First programmes of

work are much more low. The Teach First programme itself, the original

development from Teach America and other programmes in other countries,

it is about the development of management, and entrepreneurial

skills. And the focus, and the programme established in England,

the programme which has been stopped in Wales, very much about providing

some community experience, and people leaving the teaching

workforce. Universities, our national challenge is to bring

people into the workforce, and retain them. In particular relation

to Teach First. There was an article in the Guardian for Price Waterhouse

Cooper, graduates that have completed a teaching convocation,

going to working recruitment. They want to bring people into teaching

as a career for the longer term. Morag touched on a piece of evidence

around Teach First. I don't think there has been much she yet looking

at other countries, other jurisdictions this quite interesting

little booklet a colleague passed to me the other day, a research study

by the higher education policy is a jute, looking in the past 20 or so

years of development of teacher education training in England. While

some of the developments in England, I do think they sit very well in the

Scottish approach, there is a lot in here helpful to reflect on. If

nothing else, to avoid doing the wrong thing.

I can send a link to this because if it will be helpful to the committee.

I will see if I can find something. I would like to look at the

retention issue. A lot of this has been about bureaucracy, workloads,

and I have noticed in conversation with a lot of teachers that even

though there might be moves, for example for education Scotland to

get rid of bureaucracy or have a less onerous inspection regime, it

doesn't seem to be filtering down to teacher level and I'd like to ask

you what is happening there. Is there a big expectation on teachers

from their headteachers to carry out practices in a certain way or is it

directors of education hats having expectation on their teaching

cohort? Teacher shortages did feature in the

work review carried out, although it was on assessment and reporting.

Local authorities, teachers and head teachers took the opportunity to

raise the issue of teacher shortages. All of which leads to

less time for learning and teaching, carrying out extra duties. The

Deputy First Minister has written to local authorities less in the

important of taking -- the importance of taking action. We have

put good practice on the websites as a way of tackling some of the issues

they get in the way it, in the road of teaching every day. Where young

people are, preparing reports, it can take a lot of time and we have

some good examples of local authority sharing that, and that is

now national improvement hub. I want to see local authorities taking this

very seriously. It should be taken seriously by all the partners so

that it reaches down to teacher level. We've heard from a lot of

people that although inspections are not as difficult as they were, and

vain courage good practice, working with the schools to improve, rather

than just a judgment situation, that in a lot of schools, people are

still finding them very stressful in terms of preparation and lead up

because there's expectation either from the local authority or running

the school. If you are relating headteachers' retention being a bit

of an itchy following -- and issue following an inspection,

of an itchy following -- an issue following an

I'd prefer not say. There is sheen has changed quite remarkably over

the last five years. -- be regime will

stop this is an exercise in sharing, of understanding and there are

challenges in the school. The regime is trying to be more flexible. I

would be struggling to find a link in there. Of workload. I was using

that as an example, getting rid of the unnecessary workload at the top

level, but it is not filtering down. That's one of the examples that is

highlighted. I would have the same concerns about making that link.

It's just a sample example. It's not an ongoing, big issue for schools,

however the lead up to inspection is a stressful event and it does

increase the workload in the run-up to that. The inspectorate have been

doing tryouts of short notice inspections, two days notice, and we

welcome that. We have been getting feedback from members for a long

time and we are resenting this to education Scotland as a potential

direction to take. -- presenting. Hyperbole, we will see more of the

short notice inspections in the not too distant future because that is

something we would welcome, particularly in primary education

and very large establishments or large classes.

The top seven priorities are production, removal of class cover.

Secondly, they would like more protected management time or a

greater team because in a number of of authorities, they've seen the

number of personnel reduced or the management time reduced. And that is

a decision made by the local authority in terms of that

structure? Yes. It is not until... Could you be brief, please? After

that, it is proper support for additional support needs pupils.

Thank you. I would like to look at the issue around retention of

teachers, also, because it affects workforce planning. We've already

talked about workload and teachers see the environment they work in as

overly bureaucratic. But there are other issues as well, for example,

around salaries particularly during the early years. Do you have any

evidence that salaries are causing difficulty with the retention of

teachers particularly in those early years? We don't have that evidence.

I look at a couple of authorities in progress and for the meeting today.

There doesn't seem to be a problem with retention rates, and when you

look at authorities that have a less retention rate and the reasons why

people leave, often it's so people can get a job where they live, so

the main reasons for people leaving is to retire or get another job

elsewhere. All authorities would have a system for exit interviews.

You said there's not a with retention rates? I don't have the

information. That is not to say that there isn't. We have some figures to

back it up. We organise across the University sector a couple of

surveys that look at retention to graduate destination in relation to

teaching education. It round about 98% of people who have been students

are in the teaching profession. We also do one that looks a bit further

out, three and a half years. There are further issues the further you

get out. With the caveat I've already given, it is around 97-98%.

It looks higher, but I do caution that the further you get out, the

more difficult it is to ensure the accuracy of statistics. If we look

at absence rates, interaction lead quite positive teachers compared to

other professions and council workers, so you are looking up 3-4%

which is average slightly below. It seems to conflict with some of the

evidence we have been taking. The other thing we looked at was the

flattening of structure and the available progression that used to

be there through the years. Is it valid that in a certain point in

teacher's career there's an impact in their willingness to carry on? It

was noted in the report is on teaching recruitment. There has been

a flattening of structures, with a lack of incentivisation for people.

There are issues about the structure and the opportunities for promotion.

Whether that's actually encourages people to leave the profession, I

don't think there is any evidence for that. People saying they want to

leave or are unsatisfied and actually resigning... There's a huge

difference between those two things. You would have to be very, very

determined to resign a post in teaching. There are number of

nuances in their of getting to the bottom of how people really feel

about their job. But the evidence shows that people are not satisfied

as you would want them to be in a workforce like teaching where the

morale is very important. That's not to say that there are not very

brilliant, energetic teachers out there. You do hear negative views

about the pressure and the stress and the difficulty of doing the job

without all the resources previously available. Last time, you could have

conducted a survey which showed teachers were satisfied, 2001-2002.

These things often come in cycles, and many times, 20 years cycles.

Over a period, as pay, conditions and the economy declines, you get

more dissatisfaction. All the teachers we spoke to quoted the

complexity of the additional support needs within the classroom as being

an issue. Obviously, teachers cannot be experts on everything. Have you

had any feedback on that? Is that a reason for these retention issues

down the line? I don't think there are significant retention issues.

The figures don't tell me that. There seems to be two different

things. Teachers thinking about leaving, but what we don't seem to

get from you is that they may well say that but they don't do it. I

will emphasise the statistics I was quoting. Newly graduated teachers,

between six months and six and a half years, throughout the whole of

its career... I don't seem to see any evidence to say that there is a

problem with retention. We had 17 people leaving their post and those

are the ones that area offices had supported is -- officers had

supported. The workload was the issue, but that affects people's

decision for applying, so it's recruitment and retention. Pay is

also an issue, because as John said, the way that salaries are right that

for school leaders, if you are in a larger school as a deputy, why would

you take on a job as a deputy -- a headteacher in a smaller school for

less money? .com John picked up the point of

what had been put into the system and financial remuneration for the

profession. There is no doubt there has been an erosion of teachers'

terms and conditions over that period of time. It sits in the

middle of any discussion in relation to retention and attraction of

people into the profession. It can be made attractive. It is not

something that is a major thing, but can be made attractive. The other

part related to this is related to the toolkit, and the fact it is used

to differentiate pay grades within senior leadership within schools in

Scotland. It was not fit for purpose in the year 2000, and the system has

changed significantly since that, and much of what is expected of

senior leaders within Scottish secondary schools is not captured in

any way by the job sizing toolkit. The thing John picked up in relation

to differentials, why would you become a headteacher if the

financial incentive did not exist for you to do that if you are deputy

in a large secretary school -- secondary school, would you move?

Issues could be moving to a small rural school, where you are not

going to be financially rewarded, and you had to deal with the

upheaval of moving yourself from place to a rural environment, which

may be attractive, but financially is not worth your while in doing

that. With the job sizing toolkit, what you're looking at is trying to

run a 4G phone on a first seven card. -- SIM card. Just regarding

the toolkit, it was designed some years ago, prior to CFE. There is an

acknowledgement by those who use the toolkit and those who train council

staff in the use of it that it is not foolproof, for the reasons I

have just set out, it does not take account of the changing landscape in

terms of CFE and the increase in the number of subjects that might be

taught. At the time it was developed, it cost several million

pounds to develop, and they do not think anyone has the budget to

change that because if you change one aspect of it, you have to change

everything else. So I hear what others have been saying about that,

but there would be a financial disincentive at the very least and

unless someone could come up with that volume of resource to change

it, it is unlikely it will change in the near future. On the point around

retention, is that an issue on the lack of career progression structure

short of management, very quickly if you want to progress your career in

teaching you have to move into management because that are not

promoted posts before then? That is probably the case. The chartered

teacher tried to resolve that but it was unsuccessful, I think, in doing

that. It is often a job where you have to give up the expertise you

have for a teacher in order to take on management responsibility. I do

not think there is an easy solution to that. I know that in the

MacCormack report, there was a hint or suggestion that you could award

short-term additional payments in a way that the structure of teaching

in England successfully dead, where you could get an additional

responsibility payment, which could be a different levels to develop the

curriculum, reward good practice and so on. But that was not accepted. It

was seen by some as, who would decide who gets them, and would it

be fair, and would it reward good practice or how would you administer

and manage such a reward system? So, I think there are issues about how

you keep the best teachers in the classroom. Personal anecdote, but I

think it is relevant. Some things you hear of excellent features, and

their way out is to become against each, that is their way into

management. I always think it is a real loss because people are first

class teachers then create a vacancy in a shortage of subjects that are

difficult to fill. White can I check, is the chartered teacher

system still operating, and do you system still operating, and do you

because I think that senior teacher because I think that

kind of role, that was a bit of kind of role, that was a bit of

extra responsibility, but the balance of time was focused in the

classroom. Has there been any work on why it failed? I know why I think

it failed. It kind of fell by the wayside because it ultimately did

not fulfil the function that it was intended to do in the first place.

That was to recognise and reward good practice and have it promoted

within the School and use it within the School. What it eventually

became was an exercise to go through to get yourself more paid. There is

an opportunity out there with them, I would suggest, what the Scottish

educational leadership is doing, to start to look at some of the things

that have been suggested here, and to move on and perhaps from the

original question, starting to look at leadership rather than

management, and effective leadership roles that can be recognised and

acknowledged and financially rewarded within the structure of

leadership which is developing within the leadership framework.

Universities were very much involved in the chartered teacher programme.

It involved the development of a lot of programmes focused entirely on

practice. Universities would feel strongly that that aspect, while we

have continued to offer those programmes, the ending and closure

of the chartered teacher scheme meant that teaching in Scotland did

not reap the full benefits of that going back into practice, and it is

an area the government have continued to support the development

of Masters level learning for teachers, who are then learning

through the work they do within university-based programmes, able to

lead developments within school, within clusters and contribute in a

stronger way to curriculum and other developments within school that was

an aspect coming through within the graduates working in schools within

the programme. Finally, with Maguire has a number of questions. Line as

the convener mentioned, we had a focus group with teachers last week,

probably want to put on record our thanks to them for the frank and

open discussions we had with them, it was very valuable. We asked the

teacher is what questions we will ask you. I will ask you some of them

now. What planning to education authorities have for long-term

leave, like maternity leave on an anticipation of people taking

planned retirement? John has made reference to the fact that those who

wish to retire from teaching with a few months notice of their intention

guitar, so that can cause issues in terms of making decisions on

recruitment and workforce planning. Maternity is a different prospect,

and the information will be offered depending on the individual

circumstances. I suppose the other factor is whether or not they decide

to take the full year off at the other end, or decide to come back

earlier, which is very much a personal decision, sold these

factors have to be brought into this. Undoubtedly, communication

from the teacher to the school to the education authority is key to

all of that, and I am sure there are always better ways that can be done

to encourage clear workforce planning as a result. I suppose you

are setting out what happens, but what planning to local authorities

and education departments do, because you deal particularly

with... I take on board year comments about two months notice for

retirement, but for maternity leave, you will often, I would imagine,

have a longer lead up to that. Staffing is a big responsibility,

and indeed authorities will have dedicated, at least one person or a

whole staffing section within the service, within corporate personnel,

so part of a headteacher's anxiety and worry will be staffing, so there

will be regular visits to schools to look at those issues, and a

headteacher would be the first to know if someone has gone off on

maternity leave or the is an idea that someone may or may not retire,

they may not inform the authority until the last minute, which is

understandable, and they will plan on that basis, they will be able to

do it from within their own staff, the wrong contacts, and if that

fails there will be a wider search. Often those kind of issues are

tackled before you start filling posts with probationers and new

people, so there is a staffing timetable that starts with primary

one enrolment, going all the way through to August, ending up with

the staffing in the school so those are dependent on how much notice the

headteacher in the school gets, but that planning would start early,

Andy could be drawn locally, from the supplied bull, and if there a

permanent pool, it can be filled before getting to the probationer

teachers, and then a wider advert, so there almost a set of Russian

dolls before you go externally to try to fill the roles. On the topic

of recruitment has well, one of the questions they post was, why are

they required to use the online portal? An example was given that a

small school wanted to hire a support Assistant, and posting on

that portal reserve -- resulted in 300 applications for the job, which

meant the recruitment process was pretty onerous. My job was set up

principally to help councils cut costs in terms of advertising,

particularly in teaching, but not restricted to teaching posts. My job

team monitors this on a fairly regular basis, and I'm looking at a

document I received from a colleague last week, saying savings are

significant in relation to this, but it depends on the type of post it

as. My job has an engagement with tests on an promoted posts, which is

taken down at no additional costs, so there is an opportunity to

further expand the range of which posts are advertised. Other posts

through other online sites, where there is no additional cost, and the

point I'm trying to make is trying to save councils money by taking it

on through the portal. We are also trying to develop a supply portal to

tackle some of the other issues we have already discussed this morning,

and to look at that in terms of post recruitment and regularly booking

supply teachers for different posts. But it was done because it was a

cost saving to councils because the advertising costs through print

media were becoming unsustainable. Thank you. The next questions after

education Scotland. I will just -- the questions are from education

Scotland. Du education Scotland and SQA communicate with each other?

LAUGHTER Yes, we do. Did very regular meetings. It

happens in different forums nationally, where we have local

government and SQA meetings, but we also have direct links to our team

of curriculum experts,... But why would a teacher think you do not

communicate well with them? -- with SQA? I would be interested to

explore that, it is not something I would recognise from our

discussions. Another thing that came up was about

the documents. Do you consider that the documents issued to teachers

suggest that education Scotland treats teachers as professionals?

It's been absolutely our intention since it started. If we go back to

the links with the SQA, where there is a major change in any

qualification, be it computer science could be changing because of

revised experiences and outcomes, or science in the past, the materials

we provide are aimed at professionals. They are not telling

teachers what to do. It's examples of the kinds of approaches that can

be taken. Other groups giving feedback? If there is literacy and

numeracy issues then there is a feedback loop. There's also a

general enquiries feedback e-mail the people if they wish to contact

us. That brings us to the end of the first panel, so thank you all for

your attendance and you have answered many questions. Give me a

couple of minutes and I will change panels.

We will move onto second panel. We have two members from the GT CS.

If you can answer some of the questions on the ITE. Giving your

role in accreditation, what are your reflections on how teacher training

needs to adapt to a curriculum for excellence. What lessons have been

learned in the process? I would go back to my previous experience as

Chief inspector of education for education Scotland, where we had a

legal responsibility to undertake the review of the initial programme

at the Minister's behest. Six or seven years ago, the universities

were approached by inspectors to look at the curriculum for

excellence and there was a process we undertook and we were not as well

prepared as we might have hoped for, but at the second stage, they had

shown particular improvement. What we've seen is a genuine attempt by

university programmes to meet the needs of the curriculum needs, it's

very complex and wide-ranging. Teachers require this through their

initial teaching programme so I suggest that universities have come

a long wait. That's not to say that the programme covers incompletion

what is needed to provide the curriculum for excellence

completely. There is still a way to go and teachers need to understand

the philosophy behind it so it can be implemented successfully. In our

evidence we focused on literacy and numeracy. Do you think that is one

of the areas that needs renewed focus? I think it's important that

the committee to understand that there are credits and a six year

basis. I think a lot of the programmes that were being referred

to by witnesses in the previous hearings were programmes we

accredited for five or six years ago. We have got a programme of

reaccreditation coming up. The focus on literacy, numeracy, digital

literacy and health and well-being was less prominent when we

accredited those programmes that many students coming through the

system have experience. Last year, because of our expectations and the

feedback we had from the universities, there was a strong

sense that we needed to do more through this process on the likes of

the following subjects, literacy, numeracy, health. We submitted this

is part of our submissions to you. And as you will see, digital

literacy and health and well-being feature more prominently. In the

last session, we have accredited a number of university programmes, and

in some of those, we have commented on how these aspects are needed to

be developed in those various areas. You have also countered concerned

that the faculties were learning about learning rather than helping

student- teachers develop technique. Is that a balance that you think

needs to be looked at again? When we accredited programmes, we are

looking for a balance of theory and practice, and I think it is

important to understand that particularly when we have a one-year

postgraduate programme, it is in fact one year, and then it is

followed up by a probation probation year, in a school, where the

probationers build up a salary. What we are looking for when we are

crediting a programme is to make sure that there is enough scope for

teachers to understand the complexities of teaching, because we

know it is not an easy job. There are folk round this table who have

been teachers in the past. There is a chance to develop the theory into

practice, while being supported in that probation area. We have this

programme to assist student teachers as best as possible in order to

become fully fledged teachers. I have one more question. You say you

are responsible for accreditation and that's been looked at again for

a number of institutions. Are you responsible for accreditation but

not the implementation which you think should rest with education

Scotland? There is certainly a disjoint there. The university

programmes before they come to us for accreditation, there is a queue

a a oversight and inspectors can take thematic aspect review. The

General teaching council doesn't have that statutory responsibility,

but we do work very closely with the Scottish council and the deans of

education. We take the back on the success or otherwise of the

fermentation of the teacher programme, but there is a disjoint

there, having a body of credits but not having a quality assurance role

in the implementation. Thank you, Daniel. I wanted to ask is a

registered member, one of the concerns we've had given previous

panels, is the workforce planning issue and the fact that students

have raised concerns that there is a lack of consistency in some of the

delivery of the programme and we have heard this morning that there

are some real issues, some issues with the definitions of workforce

planning and what the numbers mean. Were you surprised to hear the

evidence that came particularly from the body to weeks ago with

criticisms that some workforce planning, for some student trainees

wasn't really working. Were you surprised by that? We do take

feedback from students and I have to say I was surprised and I would have

expected more positivity then perhaps the committee heard. I'm not

denying that the issues weren't perfectly valid, but I go back to

the Donaldson report, published last year, and there were questions as to

what extent students felt that their initial teacher education programme

prepared them for moving into the probationary year. The figure of 92%

response to that ITE would seem to suggest that whilst there are

undoubtedly individual teachers and students having some difficulty with

the system, it's a system that in the main that produces teachers who

are as ready as they can be, as we have heard from witnesses. It's

called ITE for a reason. It is initial teacher education.

Particularly when is a one-year postgraduate programme, then it is

very difficult and it isn't and on the universities to try and include

as much as they can, in a practical sense in making the link between the

theories of teaching and learning and the practice, in order to cover

the full gamut. When you look at the range of additional support needs

that teachers are confronted with in schools now, to adequately prepare a

student teacher for that whole damn it of support needs, it's a big ask.

Not to say it shouldn't be touched on, and it is often touched on in

ITE programmes, but it could be much better and I think there is

certainly inconsistency in terms of the content analysis report from

Scottish Government last week in the coverage of numeracy, literacy and

health and well-being. To some extent it's how you measure up what

these things are. It's some of the reasons why there's so much

variation. From what we have seen in the five

programmes we have accredited this year, although we are giving some

recommendations to some of those programmes to improve that

generally, I think it has been taken on board positively by the

universities. Could I just follow up on the concerns we had that the

quality of some of the placement experience was very variable.

Notwithstanding the fact that many students were positive about that

placement, there were other students making the case that they were

simply used as cover, more or less to make the coffee, and they did not

have a quality experience. If I rate, one of the changes have made

is to move from an opt in system to an opt out system. Could I clarify

whether that opt out will refer to an individual school, or whether it

will referred to individual departments within that school. If I

understood matters correctly, a couple of years ago we had problems

with departments not accepting trainees, and that has been part of

the issue about these quality issues. Perhaps you could clarify. I

would start off by saying the student placement system operates,

it is a partnership between the schools, local authorities and

universities, we operate the machinery. It is for those

partnerships between schools, local authorities and universities to

ensure that the information that goes into the system, where they are

travelling from, whether they are travelling by private transport,

whether they are looking for a denominational school, and so on, it

is a requirement on those partnerships to make sure there are

sufficient placements and all of that data is accurate before it

comes to the General teaching Council. We simply crank the handle

than those ingredients have been put in. What comes out either

placements. There is a student placement Management group which has

representation from all of stakeholders, we also have a user

group which is largely made up of folk who operate the system at the

sharp end. There are certainly a number of students who find out

relatively late because they recognise that -- I recognise that

has been one of the issues, that they are placed in a particular

school. Where we have postgraduates coming into teacher education, they

may not find out that they are eligible to come onto that cause

until they receive their SQA results, which come out at the end

of the first week in August. The first placements that some

university programmes have in place take place at the end of August.

That gives us basically a two or three week window for the

universities to feed the information into the system. And for the

placements to be identified, for the schools then to confirm the

placements are still valid, the local authorities to confirm they

are content with them, and for the information to be sent out to the

students concerned. So I think we have made steps to improve the

system so that people find out as early as they possibly can. One of

the changes this year that the management group have made is to run

the placements at the start of the year. Last year we split it by term,

and that caused more problems probably than it solved. Effectively

the system, if the ingredients coming into the machinery are

adequate, and enough placements agreed between schools, local

authorities and universities, and these are prerequisites, we can

produce 18,000 perfectly valid placements which agree with the

protocols which have been set, and I know travel times have been an

issue. We just want to come back on that. It is related about the

accuracy of this data. The bottom line we are concerned about is we

have a shortage of teachers and there are people out there who would

like to be able to teach, but for one reason or another they feel

there are constraints within the system preventing them being in the

classroom. I was concerned from the previous panel that no one is able

to explain exactly why these barriers are in place. What I am

driving at is, what do we have to do to ensure that all those teachers

who are accredited and want to teach are actually able to do so? In your

opinion, where is the blocking in the system that is preventing more

people coming into the teaching profession, and ensuring we get them

into a very good job? Where are the blocks? I think the committee has

heard evidence around the status of the teaching profession. I think

that is an issue. I think some of the issues around teaching, it is a

block. This was to allow people to have more flexibility in how to

train to become a teacher. An example of that would be the teacher

induction scheme which covers the probationary year. There are blocks

within that in that it is only allowed for those who fulfil it in a

full-time basis, and it is only home funded students who are eligible for

it. GT sees Scotland has been doing a lot of work with jurisdiction in

other parts of the world to try to encourage teachers to come to

Scotland. We know from the survey we did and we have copy of it, people

have lapsed on the register. One of the reasons for that is people being

unable to secure a job in Scotland, or being traded -- trained in

Scotland and then they change and Visa requirements meant they could

not continue the job abroad. So I think there is something around

greater flexibility in allowing people into the profession to better

meet their needs. It is better that you are full-time student and fulfil

a four-year programme. We need to look at ways -- at ways we can look

at more flexibility for teacher education programmes, and those who

want to change career to coming to the teaching profession. That has

never really been an issue where we have a surplus of teachers in the

past. I think there are issues about immigration, and they are not

helpful. But I think there are other issues that we have teachers who are

perfectly well qualified and experienced from other

jurisdictions, who would like to teach in Scotland, and we want to

encourage that. There are issues with getting people accredited, and

I'm interested to know... I think it is vital to free up those who are

properly accredited, it is right it is a properly accredited profession,

but they are able to teach in Scotland. I know the team have been

doing a lot of work on the education of teachers to try to increase the

flexibility. Ellen may want to see something around that. Line just to

bring it back to another point, there is also those who would want

to return to teaching, I am always interested to hear about those who

around year five have decided it is time to have their family, which is

absolutely great, keeping a number of children in Scotland -- the

number of children in Scotland schools we wanted to be, but that

can then turn into a career break and the curriculum moves on, and

teachers then do not want to feel as if they do not know. So one of the

barriers is, what is available to support them to them to return to

teaching? These are people with Scottish education system have

already invested in, so they need that support. Edinburgh University

has already designed a to teaching programme which will be disseminated

nationally. That as a way of bringing what we have already.

Diversity is important, including those who work abroad are outside

Scotland, and it is a qualification framework which is the underpinning

the work of People coming with some of the

-based requirements have a learning gap, and we are setting up

programmes from professional learning to allow them to be in our

schools but to maintain that quality at the same time, so we now have a

full range of registration categories, full registration,