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If all the order. Good afternoon, Sir Peter. Mr Henley, very lovely to

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see you. I apologise for the heat, please feel no compunction about

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taking off your jacket if that would help you to stay cool, calm and

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collected in the face of questions from my colleagues. Also can I thank

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you the very thoughtful and in places said it submission that was

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made to the enquiry. We are very grateful for that. Can I kick off

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with you, Mr Henley, and ask what you thought as the incoming Chief

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Executive of the recent White Paper on culture? I have been with the

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discount of just over a year now and I have made my business in last 12

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months to travel the length and breadth of the country is seeing a

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meeting with people who make great arts and culture happen right across

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the country. That is something out is very important to us as an arts

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Council. We are the National development agency for culture in

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this country. We invest in excellent work and that is the thing that is

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most important for us. We want to widen access to all parts of the

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country both geographically and all groups of people in the country and

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we want great arts organisations and we want to have a skilled workforce.

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We also want children and young people to be at the heart of what we

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do to bring of talent and I think the White Paper has two particular

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things we are working on. One is the great places scheme which we see is

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taking that message received is very central to our work is taking

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investment right across the country and also the cultural citizens

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programme which is about bringing a new generation of people into

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engagement with arts and culture whoever they are and wherever they

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are. One of the things that is important to us and is reflected in

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the White Paper is about increasing investment that we make outside of

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London and one of the first announcements I made was that by

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2018, 70 5% of our national lottery revenue will be invested outside of

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London. It's currently 17 and it was previously 60. The white liberal

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review all hours to make that happen more and more quickly and

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effectively and it's something we see as being central to what we do

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for -- White Paper review. Something we may touch on today is local

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authority investment in arts and culture and local authorities are

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the biggest investors in arts and culture. R ?850 million we put into

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arts and culture in England, the put in ?1.19 billion and we have seen

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some reductions in spending. That is something that we are actively

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working with local authorities because it is something we are

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concerned about. Arts and culture does remain strong in all parts of

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the country although we will remain vigilant to make sure that remains

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the case. Thank you for that. What would you have liked to see in the

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White Paper that was not in it? I suppose we are always greedy for

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more investment because we believe that arts and culture pays dividends

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in peoples lives and I think one of the things as arts Council that only

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I am very keen on is that we invest. We don't subsidise things, we invest

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in things because they have a set of real benefit in people's' lives and

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that can change lives because having great creativity and culture around

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you intrinsically is very important but there are other more

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instrumentalist benefits so investment in education and giving

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people better life chances and investment around health and

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well-being. We know people who are taken arts and culture live happier

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and healthier lives. Investment in new technology is helping us do

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things differently and get more arts and culture to more people more

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often. There are benefits around place making and actually defining

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our villages, towns and cities across the country and also in

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building our reputation on the international stage as well. Do you

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have a view about what the right service obligation should be towards

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that in order to allow different parts of the country to access

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culture on the Internet? I don't have an exact figure but I know that

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it is important that broadband and connectivity is vitally important.

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One thing we see which we signed an memorandum of understanding with

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South Korea recently and understanding how important fast

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broadband is for them and seeing what we can learn from that, I think

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it is important. The other thing I would say is it's a great method to

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use particularly for people in rural areas for them to be able to engage

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with the best art and culture from around the country and bigger

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metropolitan centres so yes, we would say it's an important part of

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the jigsaw. Just on the question of broadband infrastructure, I think

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not just for arts and culture but for the creative industries in

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general, we are going to need to see much bigger investment generally

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whether it's by Government or private enterprise in the broadband

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sphere and it's not just the broadband infrastructure, it's the

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five and six G mobile which we should not leave out of the equation

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I think. Together, those things will deliver a massive amounts, not just

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more public benefit from the arts that massive amounts of growth in

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the economy. We will not get that if we do not invest in it and at the

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moment too many people are either excluded despite the good work that

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has been done towards the 97 or 98% coverage and too many companies

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don't get the speeds to do what they want to do. We would be very

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grateful if to the extent you haven't done so already, you and the

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arts Council could, over a small number of weeks, pulled together

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some thoughts on this issue and in particular its pretty obviously

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galvanic to anticipation as well as to enjoyment and if you think that

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you would have an obligation that the Government should specify is

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likely to be too low at 10 megabits, as many have suggested, we would be

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very interested to know your view and that, as at work, from the court

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is not arts investment. We were suddenly not what you'd hold back if

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you felt you had views on this issue. If we could broaden it out

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creating arts and culture to the industry more widely? I think that

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would be the issue. When a focus on some other things. For either of

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you, what is the difference in subsidy and investment? The run many

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companies who provide activities that we subsidise beginning with the

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British library and going down, how do you draw the difference in

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subsidy and investment briefly? Is subsidy what happens at the moment

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and investment is different? We see all of this as investment because we

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are saying there are sinews of investments in people's lives in

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making the case for public money to be spent on this, it's about the

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improvements that it makes in people's lives across the country.

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We don't see it as something that is money being put into a bottomless

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pit. There are a fantastic outcome is that actually change places and

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change people's lives and for that reason I would say more of an

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investment than a subsidy. Thank you. One thing that is noticeable if

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you look around the numbers that you have given of the investments that

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you make is not just the imbalance between London and rural areas, but

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also... I know people want to pick this up, so much investment outside

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London is in cities when you talk about the balance of investments,

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what guarantees do we have as the committee that that money is

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actually going into activities in the local community by the local

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community rather than just cream that they get a chance to taste

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rarely on the occasion of people drop in? 15% of our investment goes

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to rural areas and 17% of the population are there so we are a bit

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like the game but not a long way and that is something we would like to

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see improved. Some of the programmes that we have got, strategic touring

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for example is a new programme will stop 91% of that is now spent

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outside of London and 58% of it goes to areas of law engagement so that's

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about getting the best new work and getting it out around the country.

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We have a programme of creative people and places which runs in 21

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places around the country so in Sunderland, where I was on Saturday

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night where I saw a great night out which was cultural spring, the

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people and places programme there which was fantastic celebrating

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Sunderland's heritage. In Stoke-on-Trent there was a programme

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run by Appetite and in Blackpool is really galvanising Blackpool. Their

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programme is taking a very tough area economically and bringing art

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and culture in there in a new way so those programmes are taking

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bottom-up arts and culture into places of law engagement and really

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changing them. Thank you. Thank you both for coming. Just following this

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up on regional spending, Mr Hanley, will you give those figures on how

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you are going to decentralise your spending from London? For the

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national lottery revenue, by the end of 2018, 70 5% of it will be spent

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outside of London, 25% inside. Currently it 70, 30 are split and

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historically it has been 60, 40, so we are making a five percentage

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point shift by 2018 and the reason for 2018 is that it's our current

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framework. Who will be the winners in that new spending pattern?

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Villages, towns and cities across the country so we would always look

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to invest in areas where we can see in festival propositions. One thing

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we have to do is build up infrastructure of the grounds and

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make sure there are artists and arts organisations in those places... How

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would you do that? The National pork organisations, particularly in

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cities whether it is in Leeds or Newcastle or wherever, they are very

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adept and skilled at putting in their applications and making the

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case and I get lobbied regularly by other or dieticians and the city is

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so how will you go back capacity and that awareness to make sure exactly

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delivered? Quite a lot of the strategic funding

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isn't available to national portfolio organisations. They get

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about 69 million of lottery but we invest 250 to 300 depending on the

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ticket sales every year. The other movie is going to grants for the

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arts. It is for smaller arts organisations. Strategic touring

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goes to some but not all. Capital investment goes to some but not all.

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Some other schemes we will talk about later. Quite a lot of the

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lottery money, far more than two thirds is not available. It is aimed

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elsewhere. Who will be the losers in this new sharing out of lottery cash

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if we will reduce it from 30 to 25%? We will spend our strategic funds in

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a different way. There will be... Will anyone in London lose out?

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There will be less money to spend in London. Have those organisations

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started lobbying you about those already? They constantly lobby us

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wherever they are in the country. To give you an example, one of the

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things we were keen to do is where we have areas where there was low

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engagement like Bradford, we found there were very few local artists

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starting out and applying for money. We have worked with Bradford Council

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and put workshops on and brought them through very quickly. We have

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people on the ground applying for money and come through. We see it as

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a journey that they will make. There will be large amounts over time. We

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want to take more people in more parts of the country on that

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journey. You can just have one game in town. We have to have a series.

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London is an important world arts centre. It does mean less money for

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London. The balancing act we are attending at the moment is we have

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been reducing the amount of money going to London on the signalling

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its well in advance. I don't believe we have damaged London's arts

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infrastructure. It is a balancing fact. I am from Huddersfield and we

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have met in my capacity as chairman. Thank you for investment in brass

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bands in England. We are between Sheffield, Manchester and Leeds. We

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have museums that could close and Huddersfield town Hall is behind its

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refurbishment. When we say the cultural scene is positive and the

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investments are coming through, people in the town 's, they are

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losing out. It is all well and good. I have noticed lots of mentions of

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Manchester and Leeds and the Baltic up in Newcastle. How will we

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deliver? I went to the festival. I have tweeted the pig. I am very keen

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that we work in places like Huddersfield. The university

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partnership was very keen. If we look back, we might have said there

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was art's councils. How big is your team in Yorkshire to help and

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assist? We have an office in Leeds. How many people in Leeds? I would

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estimate 30 people in the Leeds office. With this changing funding,

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any intentions to change your staffing map across the regions? We

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need to work effectively with local authorities. We're looking at how we

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can do that the remit of keeping our core costs down. Office space is a

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lot cheaper than in central London so if you want to relocate, you will

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be welcome. One quick question and then we will go to Elliott. We seem

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to have a woodpecker in the building and we are doing what we can! It is

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commendable that you are looking to change the balance. How will you

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measure it? Will you put more money into existing recipients of funding

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or will it encourage more applicants? We need to invest and

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measure it in both. We are committed to moving more money into more parts

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of the country. The test is how many people's lives we can change because

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of that. There are two matches there. I think we should see that in

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the context of local authority spending. We need to partner with

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local authorities and what they are investing and how much they'll

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investing in different places is going to be a very important part of

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that. We need to find strong parts among local authorities but we have

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to look at areas of low intake of taking up. It is aimed at building

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capacities that don't make any bits because they haven't got arts and

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destruction. We do both of those things. Bradford is an area where

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you are building capacity. What other areas ie investing in because

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you are concerned there isn't enough local opportunity creation? They

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range right around the country from Medway Kent through to south-east

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Northumberland in Ashenden, Bedlington, Newbiggin by the sea.

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These are former mining areas where there is no real cultural

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infrastructure and there hasn't been a large demand. We have to analyse

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that and found parts of the country where we are doing that work. St

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Helens is another example where we have heart of Glass, which is based

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at the St Helens Rugby League club. There are exciting things happening.

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We are not sitting in an office doing a top-down view. We are making

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significant investment and talking to people and taking on a journey

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involving art and culture in their lives. Sunderland has been a city

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for 20 years. We did used to be the largest town in the country. Thank

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you for visiting us on Saturday. I am sorry I couldn't be there. I

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wanted to ask just on the back of this type of thing, there is a lot

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of work going on in my area. How are you going to sustain that in the

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areas that aren't traditionally regions? How would that sustained in

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the long term because these projects do things and then go off. What are

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you doing about the sustainability of these kinds of things in the less

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development cultural areas outside of London? Sunderland is bidding for

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city of culture. One of the things that is exciting and interesting is

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the local leadership. People at the University, they are coming together

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and making a series of decisions to make their place better feel art and

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culture. That is something that is exciting. -- through art and

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culture. There is a large-scale application in for the old Fire

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station. We have taken that through this stage and it has permission out

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of bed through the second stage. There is some exciting things. There

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would be a mixture of infrastructure investment but also one of the tests

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in those places where we have greater improvement is can we get

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grants for the arts applications from individual artist movement that

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area? There is an amazing thing that artist can do around changing the

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place. Margate in Kent is an example of that. There is a whole street

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worth of artists who are changing the environment in front of them.

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That is something that is really exciting and we weren't -- won't

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work with people to make art happen. You have mentioned local

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authorities. There are massive disparages in funding which clearly

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the arts are going to have to take a hit en masse. Some regions are doing

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better than others. How do you see that moving forward and how do you

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think rural areas will differ from urban areas in terms of how they

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meet that massive loss which is coming down the line? We have

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relationships around 260 local authorities around the country and

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they go from town Council is up to big city councils. One of the things

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worse is there is quite a challenge now because they are having to cut

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its budget in a different way. You may have a local authority that has

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revenue funding that is poor but has building assets. The question is

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what can we do that helps them to enable that assessment on a local

:22:26.:22:29.

basis into art and culture? We have a number of programmes in place and

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we have a creative growth fund which has just started. It gives an

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example of some investment we made in Birmingham. We put off million

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pounds into a new arts and technology centre which is being run

:22:48.:22:51.

by Birmingham city University and that has leveraged ?3 million of

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your money and a further ?40 million of Treasury money. We on losing

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money to do what we came to be leveraged. Our investment become

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smarter we can hopefully unlock other pounds from elsewhere. Thank

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you. The international development for

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the arts is a good encapsulated in but when we think about development

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agencies in other areas. We tend to think about funding going into the

:23:33.:23:40.

gaps. Most of your funding is arts support rather than arts

:23:41.:23:44.

development. Where are your priorities going forward. A lot of

:23:45.:23:50.

what we do is about making a cash investment but we have a role to

:23:51.:23:54.

play in convening organisations together and bringing local

:23:55.:23:57.

communities together and having conversations around how arts and

:23:58.:24:01.

culture can make a difference. I have been seeing the work that has

:24:02.:24:11.

been done by the cultural parts of Folkestone and a great example of a

:24:12.:24:14.

town which has been completely redefined because of artists coming

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into the place. Those examples we can share. One of the things we are

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doing right now is sharing best practice around the country. One of

:24:28.:24:35.

the things is showing breast -- Best practice. There will be places in

:24:36.:24:41.

Cumbria that will be equally relevant to Cornwall. Looking at

:24:42.:24:54.

other projects in my area, we go to local arts organisations that are

:24:55.:24:57.

helping to deliver support in the arts and cultural area that had

:24:58.:25:05.

little infrastructure before. Do you seek criteria for further

:25:06.:25:07.

developments? If you continue to invest, you want to see growing

:25:08.:25:11.

participation, growing opportunities where other people parts of the arts

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and your work? We have an agreement with all of our operations. One of

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the things I am concerned that we can do better on, is around widening

:25:25.:25:33.

diversity within the arts organisations both in terms of

:25:34.:25:35.

people working in the arts world but in terms of the art that is being

:25:36.:25:40.

funded. We make sure it is relevant that everybody on the 21st-century.

:25:41.:25:45.

That is something that is very important verse and widening that

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out is key and LB measures that are talked about. Do you feel that has

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happened? It has started and we have a long way to go. Disability is a

:25:57.:26:05.

lot of work that still needs to be done. It tends to be good upstanding

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people and we have a long way to make sure the disability arts in

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terms of the art commissioned and in terms of representation on stage is

:26:15.:26:19.

happening. I am pleased we have something called ramps on the moon

:26:20.:26:22.

which is our biggest touring fund. ?2 million based at the theatre in

:26:23.:26:28.

Ipswich witches touring the theatres around half a dozen theatres around

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the country is -- Ipswich witches touring theatres around the country.

:26:38.:26:40.

It is working brilliantly. Do you think there is a widening of

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participation in the arts? Yes, something the statistics don't often

:26:55.:26:57.

capture that we may come onto more after words is education. We ask and

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require our national portfolio will education to have educational

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outreach and we judge 80% of the now to have good outreach facilities and

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we are on the other is to improve this. Latest assist its I have for a

:27:12.:27:17.

full year are 8 million schoolchildren had 14 million arts

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in cultured which is going to an art gallery or etc. And that's not

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taking into account the DC MS which has been going up over arts and more

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broadly arts and entertainment at those numbers are. So I think we

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should remember the education numbers. We have made really good

:27:39.:27:41.

progress there and if you look at a specific project like the Royal

:27:42.:27:45.

Shakespeare Company in its anniversary Shakespeare year, I

:27:46.:27:48.

think it's reaching more than 400,000 schoolchildren putting video

:27:49.:27:54.

live of their productions into school with duration and explanation

:27:55.:27:58.

as well. That is one example. It's million schoolchildren are coming

:27:59.:28:03.

into contact with arts and culture via funded organisations and that's

:28:04.:28:05.

a good example of how we are widening participation. It's sounds

:28:06.:28:12.

a good example but for the adult population as well, how do we widen

:28:13.:28:16.

participation or are we at the funding the same people having more

:28:17.:28:21.

and more access to art that they are otherwise engaged with? It's

:28:22.:28:26.

something we need to do better at it I think we are on journeys make that

:28:27.:28:30.

happen more and it has to be, certainly from my point of view, I

:28:31.:28:35.

believe the arts Council has a moral obligation to widen out

:28:36.:28:38.

participation in arts and culture to as many people in the country as

:28:39.:28:41.

possible and our investments as she going forward will be made on that

:28:42.:28:47.

basis. Two more questions. You mentioned something I was quick to

:28:48.:28:54.

bring up. An arts organisation that the arts Council reviewed its

:28:55.:28:57.

spending five years ago and they lost all of their funding and

:28:58.:29:01.

nonetheless kept going and they are now bidding for funding for

:29:02.:29:08.

additional projects. How typical is this experience as a small

:29:09.:29:11.

organisation with other organisations that the arts Council

:29:12.:29:15.

have dealt with and how in your review has arts organisations manage

:29:16.:29:20.

to keep going? Have they built it successfully, have they changed

:29:21.:29:23.

their model in terms of how they seek support from other partners as

:29:24.:29:26.

a consequence of the following grant funding? In 2010 we faced a large

:29:27.:29:32.

reduction in so we tough decisions and organisations like strange cargo

:29:33.:29:35.

boat which we fund in a different way and I saw a great exhibition

:29:36.:29:39.

around Gurkha soldiers there when I was down in Folkestone, I think that

:29:40.:29:46.

what we have done is held or organisation become more sustainable

:29:47.:29:49.

so the contributed revenue that is coming from other sources is growing

:29:50.:29:55.

so running at about 19% from London organisations. Having said that, we

:29:56.:29:59.

know it's tougher to raise money outside of London so we are doing a

:30:00.:30:03.

lot of work with our catalyst fund which is our fund that touts arts

:30:04.:30:07.

organisations to increase their sustainability and resilience and

:30:08.:30:12.

that is a ?70 million fund. 70% of that has been sent outside London

:30:13.:30:16.

and we have set up a programme of arts fundraising fellows, giving

:30:17.:30:21.

them specific training in arts fundraising and 70% of those are

:30:22.:30:23.

again outside London's we are working hard to make sure

:30:24.:30:27.

organisations are able to not just rely on public funding but be able

:30:28.:30:32.

to diversify. We also do another round of deals next year, starting

:30:33.:30:36.

this autumn, the decisions next spring and summer. That will be for

:30:37.:30:42.

the next entry all deal for fewer four years depending. We are

:30:43.:30:49.

confident but quite a few successful deals in that sound will come from

:30:50.:30:52.

arts funding so that as a nursery. It is not the only way of being

:30:53.:30:57.

funded. That goes France funding which we have put up year-on-year

:30:58.:31:02.

because the lottery is relatively stable as opposed to increasing. --

:31:03.:31:07.

relatively stable if not increasing. One sign of success is that we are

:31:08.:31:13.

able to fund organisations that get onto a regular basis and then they

:31:14.:31:18.

are able to grow into DN PO portfolio and I'm confident the next

:31:19.:31:23.

year we will have examples of that -- NPO. People who go on to become a

:31:24.:31:29.

NPO, you fund them on that basis, they then remain on that. Or do you

:31:30.:31:34.

beat is every time and some people drop off the end and people get

:31:35.:31:39.

underfunded because frankly they are meant to get money from other

:31:40.:31:42.

sources or other not doing a good enough job? We will have a brand-new

:31:43.:31:47.

portfolio from 2018 onwards we would start again, everyone applies. There

:31:48.:31:53.

is no automatic entry. So you could have different organisations funded

:31:54.:31:57.

from one to another and the new ones could be fewer rather than more in

:31:58.:32:01.

some cases if he felt the need was greater than they deserved more. So

:32:02.:32:08.

basically, the end of this year a will make an application and every

:32:09.:32:11.

one who wishes to become a NPO will be assessed and next summer we will

:32:12.:32:16.

give about nine months notice to everybody whether they are in or out

:32:17.:32:20.

of the portfolio from 2018 onwards. How do you... Alas for's ran about

:32:21.:32:32.

five .5 existing MPO 's left the portfolio and were no longer funded

:32:33.:32:37.

and I think probably because we increased the portfolio very

:32:38.:32:42.

slightly, I think is that higher percentage joined and this time

:32:43.:32:47.

we're fairly confident, I don't know how many will leave that we are

:32:48.:32:50.

confident we will be able to increase the number even more.

:32:51.:32:56.

Finally on that, how do you stop the negative incentive whereby people

:32:57.:33:01.

don't raise as much money or demonstrate independent fundraising

:33:02.:33:05.

because they don't want to be sufficiently independent freedom to

:33:06.:33:11.

be downgraded on the NPO? A moral hazard in a way. We require in our

:33:12.:33:22.

agreement with NPOs several items such as increasing diversity. So we

:33:23.:33:25.

will judge them on that. I'm not saying that alone would mean you got

:33:26.:33:29.

in didn't get on to the portfolio but it is one of the rings that we

:33:30.:33:38.

will judge them on. The money raised philanthropic way, has been going up

:33:39.:33:42.

since 2010 but I would say that the most interesting thing that has been

:33:43.:33:46.

going up in that overall cake if you like of revenues is commercial

:33:47.:33:53.

revenues. The actual cake of the NPOs despite aid being cut by around

:33:54.:34:00.

30% the cake has got bigger. It has got bigger because good people are

:34:01.:34:04.

driving is organisations and driving forward commercial revenue. As

:34:05.:34:10.

others extent, they are driving their fundraising so the evidence is

:34:11.:34:13.

that there is not a lack of incentive. They are trying very hard

:34:14.:34:16.

to diversity I and in many cases they are succeeding. To finish off.

:34:17.:34:24.

Your last answer leads and what I want to talk about which is about

:34:25.:34:29.

private support. We have this mixed funding model in the UK and part is

:34:30.:34:35.

very significant. As we talked about, I know you're very familiar

:34:36.:34:42.

with Kent and market and elsewhere, to what extent... What you think we

:34:43.:34:50.

can do to attract more individuals to make a significant contribution

:34:51.:34:54.

to the arts? And do you think that in your criteria for judging the

:34:55.:34:59.

success of arts organisations that a demonstration that they are doing a

:35:00.:35:02.

good job is that they themselves can attract more support from other

:35:03.:35:10.

individuals or companies? A couple of caveats. Let's look at commercial

:35:11.:35:15.

revenue is the most significant item because that is the easiest to do

:35:16.:35:18.

and the second caveat is that fundraising in some parts of the

:35:19.:35:20.

country is extremely difficult. Having said that, there is good

:35:21.:35:28.

performance. High teas, was quoted as a percentage of revenue in London

:35:29.:35:34.

but I think I'm right to say that 13% of NPO in the east is

:35:35.:35:38.

fundraising and in the West is 10% is they have made a really big

:35:39.:35:41.

advances there. How do we do that? Catalyst which I want an pack now,

:35:42.:35:51.

is part of that. We afford very hard and training boards and executive in

:35:52.:35:54.

fundraising skills. We have even set up with the University of Leeds

:35:55.:35:58.

accrediting a professional fundraisers provocation --

:35:59.:36:05.

qualification for a cohort of graduates going into fundraising

:36:06.:36:08.

with professional qualifications. Overall though, I would say that the

:36:09.:36:13.

arts sector has a challenge. We did some research three or four years

:36:14.:36:17.

ago that showed only 8% of the population recognised arts and

:36:18.:36:21.

cultural organisations as charities. That is a marketing and

:36:22.:36:24.

communications challenge because arts and culture organisations have

:36:25.:36:27.

to go in and compete with other health charities and the like to get

:36:28.:36:32.

some of that money so there is still a mountain to climb in a way because

:36:33.:36:37.

I think instinctively a lot of our arts producers and arts

:36:38.:36:41.

professionals, quite understandably, say they are an artist not charity

:36:42.:36:44.

but they need to say, I deliver these public benefits. That is an

:36:45.:36:50.

object of charity and therefore we would be good recipients. There are

:36:51.:36:53.

some things to learn and we could get better but it is improving. And

:36:54.:36:58.

there are areas in a country where it has improved. Do you think there

:36:59.:37:03.

are good case studies of organisations that have good local

:37:04.:37:08.

strategy for arts that involve not only attracting funding from the

:37:09.:37:11.

arts Council colossal development partnerships with a range of local

:37:12.:37:18.

records. Absolutely. I think the first speech I ever gave a few years

:37:19.:37:21.

ago I said that we need a grand partnership. I was speaking between

:37:22.:37:24.

business and local authorities and universities. It is happening more

:37:25.:37:28.

and more. Darren just mentioned Sunderland and is partly also a

:37:29.:37:33.

question of leadership. If we dig a great local leader with great

:37:34.:37:36.

passion of arts and culture who attracts other money in from a

:37:37.:37:40.

variety of sources because of his passion and his belief and his

:37:41.:37:43.

leadership, we need that kind of leadership across the boards which

:37:44.:37:48.

can be done. Just to pick up on a couple of things there, you have

:37:49.:37:51.

painted a very rosy picture of the art scene flourishing in many

:37:52.:37:55.

different ways and increasing commercial revenue despite cuts from

:37:56.:38:01.

grants and eight. I'm just surprised that it's something we haven't heard

:38:02.:38:06.

much so far which is concern about local Government spending and I'm

:38:07.:38:12.

also surprised that in your analysis of the White Paper, both of view

:38:13.:38:16.

didn't say something which I would expect you to say which is that

:38:17.:38:20.

ministers might be pulling their hair out with anger that local

:38:21.:38:25.

Government is clobbering the capacity of investment in the arts

:38:26.:38:29.

to be effective. You are nodding. I shall you accept that point. The

:38:30.:38:34.

point I was going to make was that the White Paper properly pointed to

:38:35.:38:40.

the importance of local funding in arts and culture but it didn't offer

:38:41.:38:46.

strategies for the future which we've all got to work on and I note

:38:47.:38:52.

the CMS agree with this. Arguably, it failed to address the central

:38:53.:38:58.

charity. Well, I call it the biggest challenge facing arts and culture

:38:59.:39:01.

now. My earlier remarks when you said putting a rosy picture, I don't

:39:02.:39:05.

want to undersell the successes that many great arts leaders and many

:39:06.:39:08.

local authorities committed arts and culture and achieving around the

:39:09.:39:12.

country. I'd want to undersell that. I don't understand the fact that

:39:13.:39:16.

he's me for arts and culture, the coherent case, got a reasonable

:39:17.:39:20.

settlement the Autumn Statement from the Chancellor. We don't undersell

:39:21.:39:25.

the successes. I think both of us believe that we have done quite well

:39:26.:39:29.

up to now but we are seriously concerned, as I have said and I am

:39:30.:39:32.

on the record as saying, seriously concerned about what might happen if

:39:33.:39:36.

local authority cuts to arts and culture happen at greater pace over

:39:37.:39:43.

the next four years and therefore we think you're hearing is extremely

:39:44.:39:47.

timely and we hope you will join with others in exploring what will

:39:48.:39:50.

strategies might be because they are very much needed. I won't criticise

:39:51.:39:55.

the White Paper because it did point to the importance of local funding,

:39:56.:39:58.

but I would say the next step after the White Paper is to work out what

:39:59.:40:05.

the strategies are. Thank you. Just, I read the speech you gave Sir Peter

:40:06.:40:14.

on the local Government network paper which identified what had gone

:40:15.:40:20.

on in the past, but it didn't produce any best estimate of how

:40:21.:40:23.

much that local authority reduction was going to be. What is your best

:40:24.:40:31.

guess? Well, we can tell you what has happened. Well, I know what has

:40:32.:40:38.

happened. What is your best guess? Your query said this is the biggest

:40:39.:40:42.

challenge and we can't step into play but Hall. What is your best

:40:43.:40:46.

estimate about what the hole is going to be? I don't have one

:40:47.:40:51.

because it really depends on what local individually is our going to

:40:52.:40:56.

do and we know plenty of local authorities are getting behind arts

:40:57.:40:58.

and culture despite the pressure they are under. It also depends on

:40:59.:41:03.

how fast the cost of social care which is a statutory obligation goes

:41:04.:41:06.

What I will same is, as you say, we What I will same is, as you say, we

:41:07.:41:14.

have the figure of 70% since... If it was 30%, that would be a real

:41:15.:41:25.

problem and would lead to closures. We very concerned. I don't have an

:41:26.:41:29.

estimate because I don't know how local authorities are going to

:41:30.:41:35.

respond. Within the realms of that uncertainty, it could be worse, do

:41:36.:41:44.

you think? It is possible. It is a matter of great concern. That would

:41:45.:41:52.

to closures? We have done fairly well up to now but we have not had

:41:53.:41:56.

widespread closures of museums or libraries. If you had a very high

:41:57.:42:05.

cut and many councils departing the scene, it is not something the arts

:42:06.:42:07.

Council will be able to stop. My local Bell -- Borough Council

:42:08.:42:27.

faces the loss of its Government support. Business rates come back

:42:28.:42:34.

and we will be allowed to fend for yourself. We are seeing no clear

:42:35.:42:42.

sign of green shoots of growth in North Staffordshire and many

:42:43.:42:48.

industrial areas. The temptation is the local authorities to keep

:42:49.:42:55.

cutting and the temptation must be greater if they can look at

:42:56.:43:02.

organisations and say, "You are being funded by the arts Council."

:43:03.:43:11.

How you balancing those tensions? We were very critical of Westminster

:43:12.:43:15.

City Council withdrawing its funding and relying on you and the added

:43:16.:43:24.

pain. How you manage and attention and the messages you are given to

:43:25.:43:29.

local authorities? We have been talking to a lot of local

:43:30.:43:30.

authorities up and down the country. We are talking to a lot of local

:43:31.:43:48.

authorities and those decisions of quite bespoke because they are

:43:49.:43:53.

facing different challenges. One of the examples we can use in your part

:43:54.:44:04.

of the world is around appetite. One area is doing very well and that is

:44:05.:44:08.

leveraging more support and more understanding for the local

:44:09.:44:12.

authority. They are seeing the value of what art and culture does in that

:44:13.:44:16.

area. One of the things we need to do is to show how our investment is

:44:17.:44:20.

making a difference. But we had a positive settlement in the spending

:44:21.:44:25.

Review, what we have got is enough money to make up the difference. We

:44:26.:44:30.

have to be clear with local authorities that we are making

:44:31.:44:34.

funding decisions on the basis that they remain investable propositions

:44:35.:44:41.

going forward. There has to be other funding sources there and we need

:44:42.:44:45.

other people to step up to the plate. Stoke-on-Trent is next door

:44:46.:44:52.

to me and they haven't had much direct contact. I found my joy that

:44:53.:45:02.

the great French traditions of having cameras at well with stations

:45:03.:45:06.

is not just that Saint Pancras. They have the mat Stoke-on-Trent. Now it

:45:07.:45:12.

has gone but can they put it back because the French have them

:45:13.:45:20.

permanently? I don't know what the outlook is that appetite but what I

:45:21.:45:26.

am trying to get a sense from you is that when you send your speech, if

:45:27.:45:34.

you are in Wareham, is it right for local authorities to conclude that

:45:35.:45:41.

if you are out, we are out? We have the most impossible balancing act to

:45:42.:45:46.

perform. We intend to perform it. That balancing act is that if the

:45:47.:45:53.

thought was you can cut as a local authority your arts and cultural

:45:54.:45:55.

provision with impunity because the arts Council would fill the gap, we

:45:56.:46:00.

physically don't have the money. That is another example of the

:46:01.:46:05.

phrase we used earlier. Therefore it is the case that in some

:46:06.:46:09.

circumstances I expect in the next three to four years that the arts

:46:10.:46:12.

Council will have to withdraw funding because it would be a proper

:46:13.:46:16.

place to put public money in an institution that might be failing

:46:17.:46:19.

because of the source of revenue have been cut. Balanced against that

:46:20.:46:25.

is our very strong belief that we don't want the public to suffer and

:46:26.:46:31.

we don't want people in low arts take up to suffer. We have to

:46:32.:46:35.

balance these things and it is a very difficult balancing act. That

:46:36.:46:40.

is what we are faced with and we will have to withdraw from some

:46:41.:46:49.

places. You said beyond 2018, you are looking to increase the number

:46:50.:46:54.

of portfolio organisations. Your settlement doesn't go beyond 2018.

:46:55.:47:03.

How do you take that view? What budget assumptions are you working

:47:04.:47:10.

with? We had one year of visibility for the year 15/60 which is the

:47:11.:47:14.

comprehensive spending review that the Chancellor did before the

:47:15.:47:17.

election. What we said was we are giving you a three-year contract, we

:47:18.:47:23.

are assuming standstill in 2000 and -- standstill but we do know what it

:47:24.:47:31.

might be. We have better visibility because there is a four-year CSO

:47:32.:47:39.

going forward. In terms of the next round, it means it has two years of

:47:40.:47:43.

visibility. We are in a better place than we were last time. I don't

:47:44.:47:50.

think not being in sync with the CSR routine should stop is making three

:47:51.:47:54.

or four year agreements because we must encourage arts organisations to

:47:55.:47:59.

plan properly. Final question on this section. The White Paper comes

:48:00.:48:09.

with inevitable reviews and I noticed the word is tailored reviews

:48:10.:48:16.

whereas museums it is white reviews. What is it tailored to? This

:48:17.:48:22.

replaces the review that was held. This will be the review into the

:48:23.:48:32.

workings of the council. Tailored? Tailored to what or do you not know?

:48:33.:48:45.

The true answer is we don't know. Some reviews of other public

:48:46.:48:49.

organisations intended to take three months and have taken longer. I

:48:50.:48:54.

believe the intention is to make this fairly swift and concentrated

:48:55.:49:00.

if they can. That may be the meaning of the word tailored. I would be

:49:01.:49:09.

very hopeful that you would all contribute to the view. Thank you

:49:10.:49:20.

very much. Following on from the questions about local authority

:49:21.:49:24.

funding, it is clearly something that is bothering you and it is

:49:25.:49:27.

clearly something that might upset the apple cart in a way and all the

:49:28.:49:31.

good work you are doing might be undermined by the fact that there

:49:32.:49:42.

are huge cuts at local level. There must be a temptation within local

:49:43.:49:49.

authorities to see the arts as the easy option to cuts. Have you found

:49:50.:50:00.

that? When I talk about 17% cuts, it is 2010. We are not happy to see it.

:50:01.:50:06.

The overall cut to a local authority funding in that time was 25%. A

:50:07.:50:11.

non-statutory obligation got cut less than might have been cut by 30,

:50:12.:50:17.

40, 50%. The reason for that is we are better at making the case. It is

:50:18.:50:26.

well understood locally. What are you doing to make sure it isn't the

:50:27.:50:33.

easy option? What we have done since 2013 as a

:50:34.:50:44.

sector is make a better case for the value of arts and culture with the

:50:45.:50:47.

help of many people in this building I might add. There is the intrinsic

:50:48.:50:56.

value, the social value, health, prisons, care homes. All those

:50:57.:50:59.

places you see great benefits been delivered. This relationship between

:51:00.:51:05.

education and the arts and culture and the economic base -- local

:51:06.:51:10.

benefits. Britain's reputation abroad. This whole picture is better

:51:11.:51:17.

understood now than it was. We find that where there is a leader of the

:51:18.:51:22.

local council who gets that, we get them the arguments. We have placed

:51:23.:51:28.

these arguments on special videos on our at website. They can use that

:51:29.:51:34.

with their colleagues to argue the case. In your constituency, there is

:51:35.:51:42.

a great example. It is bringing together theatre, a cinema which

:51:43.:51:46.

there isn't in their heart of Chester and the local library. You

:51:47.:51:50.

have a local library that will be open for as many hours a day that

:51:51.:51:55.

the theatre is open. You have a local authority that we are working

:51:56.:51:58.

in partnership with you are making a real difference and an understanding

:51:59.:52:03.

of cultural destinations which is one of our programmes which looks at

:52:04.:52:07.

investment in arts and culture as a tourist activity. In Cornwall, they

:52:08.:52:14.

are looking at how they can take Cornwall and make it an arts and

:52:15.:52:18.

cultural destination for the whole year round and not just for the

:52:19.:52:22.

summer, using the buildings and is the art infrastructure. We have

:52:23.:52:27.

programmes in place around the area. Is there a danger that those areas

:52:28.:52:39.

are not poor and they might have art poverty compounded by these areas

:52:40.:52:47.

and by further cuts? The gap between arts riches and art poverty becomes

:52:48.:52:51.

greater. Is it something that you will have a role to try and bridge?

:52:52.:52:57.

It is a risk but it is something we tried very hard to bridge because we

:52:58.:53:00.

want to work in those areas where there has traditionally been less

:53:01.:53:05.

arts. At the same time we want to make sure those places can still

:53:06.:53:14.

flourish. What do you do in areas where there is no local authority

:53:15.:53:22.

money? I think locally in my own county, they are looking at

:53:23.:53:28.

significant cuts and matters including an anticipated ?21 million

:53:29.:53:34.

plug. They have no guarantee of getting this from central

:53:35.:53:44.

Government. If one is following the logic of this, they will have no

:53:45.:53:48.

choice but to do things that they would prefer not to. The question is

:53:49.:53:54.

how can you make use of certain that you are not really displacing

:53:55.:53:57.

funding by trying to keep the embers going in those parts of the country

:53:58.:54:03.

at all? It is a challenge and a challenge which we have to face. One

:54:04.:54:08.

of the things is quite often we can see examples of areas where because

:54:09.:54:14.

of one moment or one seismic event in that area, suddenly local opinion

:54:15.:54:21.

can be changed. Weston-Super-Mare and dismal land changed the way

:54:22.:54:27.

people saw arts and country -- culture. Many people are investing

:54:28.:54:30.

in arts and culture because it provided economic impetus into the

:54:31.:54:41.

town. I am a massive fan of the work the universities are doing. In

:54:42.:54:44.

Herefordshire I am excited about the University coming in because there

:54:45.:54:49.

is something we know where universities are run by literate

:54:50.:54:54.

people and they want to make the places where they shame a name with

:54:55.:54:58.

it, great places to study and great places for academics to go and bring

:54:59.:55:10.

up their families. The critical thing is local capacity. It is local

:55:11.:55:13.

talent creating local arts organisations which reflect the

:55:14.:55:19.

local culture. That is what is at risk able to local authority

:55:20.:55:22.

funding. We are clear on that. In circumstances where there is 100%

:55:23.:55:27.

cut and there are very few examples of that already, there are other

:55:28.:55:32.

things that the arts Council can do that though fully answer the

:55:33.:55:36.

question but go some way to do. More than half of our touring productions

:55:37.:55:44.

already go to areas of low arts engagement. We could look at how we

:55:45.:55:49.

improve that. We should look at the digital dividend. I was in

:55:50.:55:54.

Sheringham Little Theatre which is the tip of North Norfolk and I was

:55:55.:56:00.

there a matter of a month ago. With some trepidation they started take

:56:01.:56:06.

the event they live. They thought it might damage the local productions.

:56:07.:56:09.

What it has done is given the people in North Norfolk the joy and

:56:10.:56:14.

pleasure of productions in the National Theatre stop it has given a

:56:15.:56:18.

new Remie -- a revenue stream and brought people into the theatre that

:56:19.:56:22.

weren't there earlier. It is another example of content which runs

:56:23.:56:26.

alongside it. There are other things that we can do that we will need to

:56:27.:56:30.

look at seamlessly to make sure people in areas that are hit by

:56:31.:56:33.

large cuts are not completely impoverished.

:56:34.:56:38.

My local authority how can confidently say hasn't cut its arts

:56:39.:56:49.

and culture budget in recent years. The only problem is in 2014, they

:56:50.:56:54.

didn't spend any thing so you're not really cutting any thing if you're

:56:55.:56:58.

not spending any thing so that is a significant concern to me. You

:56:59.:57:04.

mentioned earlier that she work with 260 local authorities which I think

:57:05.:57:10.

leaves about 50 local authorities or maybe a few higher. It is at this

:57:11.:57:15.

more than a concern that areas like mine perhaps not engaging up all

:57:16.:57:22.

with the arts Council and I wondered, what is your strategy to

:57:23.:57:25.

ensure that authorities like mine engage with you, know what is

:57:26.:57:33.

available. We have the assets, we have built a brand-new apathy at

:57:34.:57:38.

five years ago by the Riverside -- amp if it which -- theatre which is

:57:39.:57:45.

not used very often. They are not very many venues. I don't think

:57:46.:57:51.

there is a lot of desire in the area for arts and culture but what can

:57:52.:57:55.

you do to get into the smaller local councils to let them know what is

:57:56.:58:00.

available and how they can take advantage of what you can offer? I

:58:01.:58:06.

believe quite passionately, one of the things I said when I got this

:58:07.:58:12.

job was that I spend most of my life outside of London and I sat in town

:58:13.:58:18.

hall with one employee... That is the town council. I sat down with

:58:19.:58:25.

him and we had a conversation about what we could do to help development

:58:26.:58:30.

because he is a one-man band in there and I think we need to do more

:58:31.:58:35.

in places like your constituency to encourage people to be more

:58:36.:58:39.

demanding of us and ivory keen that that happens and I think the

:58:40.:58:43.

direction of travel we will go in and our investment strategy over the

:58:44.:58:47.

coming years will be to do that. We also want to say that this is places

:58:48.:58:50.

where artists can come and live and set up their lives and work so one

:58:51.:58:55.

of the challenges when you talk to young artist in London is that they

:58:56.:58:58.

will say that they can no longer afford to live and work in London

:58:59.:59:03.

and so I say, fantastic, we have places around the country where

:59:04.:59:07.

there are buildings in local areas where we could be galvanised by

:59:08.:59:11.

artists and beautiful parts of the world. You want people to be there

:59:12.:59:16.

and be inspired and have areas of creativity and production there. It

:59:17.:59:20.

is that directing Casement that I was referring to with the local

:59:21.:59:24.

authority. I'm glad you saw the town council. That is a fantastic

:59:25.:59:30.

facility and they struggle in terms of employing one person but they put

:59:31.:59:33.

on great performances for the local community. At the District Council

:59:34.:59:38.

above them does not have an arts officer. As I said, it has not cut

:59:39.:59:42.

anything because it has not spent any thing on arts and culture. Can

:59:43.:59:48.

you assure me, I'm sorry to be sold local, but can you assure me that

:59:49.:59:54.

one of your leaves office serves 20 miles of the road will at least for

:59:55.:00:00.

mass. I can absolutely guarantee that will happen. But what we will

:00:01.:00:06.

need to, very quickly, what we need to encourage with your help is that

:00:07.:00:13.

one person on the council, whoever they are, that local councillor who

:00:14.:00:16.

really understands the value of arts and culture that we can work with

:00:17.:00:19.

them to influence other colleagues. If none of them get it, it's not an

:00:20.:00:27.

easy task. A bit of love and attention from yourselves I think

:00:28.:00:30.

would do wonders with councils like Selby. I'm sure there are others.

:00:31.:00:35.

Can I change tack a bit? You mentioned earlier philanthropy. Do

:00:36.:00:41.

we do enough of it in this country? Is there enough of it? The British

:00:42.:00:47.

in general are quite generous if you compare us to other countries. We

:00:48.:00:50.

don't do enough of is raising money effectively for arts and culture. We

:00:51.:00:54.

are getting better at it. It is growing but not as quickly as

:00:55.:00:58.

commercial revenues into and culture so we need to look at why multiple

:00:59.:01:01.

don't understand that arts and culture organisations deliver a

:01:02.:01:06.

public benefit and our charities and that is down to many of us in the

:01:07.:01:12.

sector articulating those facts more effectively. And then it is into

:01:13.:01:16.

improving fundraising infrastructure and I mentioned earlier the new

:01:17.:01:19.

course we have happens in the work we are doing around the country. We

:01:20.:01:23.

have some very good and experienced philanthropists who is our pest go

:01:24.:01:27.

around and talk to boards and executives to improve fundraising

:01:28.:01:33.

capacity and skills and talent. Could we be doing any thing? The UK

:01:34.:01:41.

has had a real research and is and is a tax efficient way of investing.

:01:42.:01:46.

Should there not be conversations with the Treasury that are not

:01:47.:01:51.

perhaps being hand will you could be encouraging the Chancellor to look

:01:52.:01:57.

at how people who are investing in individuals and arts and culture

:01:58.:01:59.

could benefit in some way in this accident? It's not a philanthropic

:02:00.:02:05.

point. We should not forget the tax credit is that we have had over the

:02:06.:02:10.

last three or four years which now extends to theatre, dance, opera,

:02:11.:02:16.

orchestras and as announced in the budgets, museums and galleries. That

:02:17.:02:20.

is not philanthropy. What I would say about the fundraising, many

:02:21.:02:25.

givers and owners and potential donors don't use the existing

:02:26.:02:29.

benefits and I think absolute priority for us would be to get able

:02:30.:02:33.

to understand what the existing tax breaks are. Gift aid is not fully

:02:34.:02:37.

claimed where it should be. Then there is the idea that was brought

:02:38.:02:43.

in about five or six years ago, if you give more than 10% of your

:02:44.:02:50.

estate to charity when you die, you get a reduction in state duty of 40%

:02:51.:02:56.

to 36%. If you had already made donations in your Will of about five

:02:57.:03:00.

or 6%, you could double that at no additional cost to your estate. When

:03:01.:03:06.

I was standing in a room helping an opera company raise money, 100

:03:07.:03:10.

people wanted to give money and we had a famous singer on the stage. I

:03:11.:03:15.

made a speech about giving money to the opera. 99 out of 100 people who

:03:16.:03:19.

wanted to give money did not know about that tax break two years after

:03:20.:03:24.

it came in. This is a challenge to us. People should know about these

:03:25.:03:29.

existing tax breaks. Should we also be looking at trying to redevelop

:03:30.:03:36.

the links that we saw in the 19th century between cultural

:03:37.:03:40.

institutions and industry? I think so. I think having been in the

:03:41.:03:47.

public sector for a year and having come from the private sector I think

:03:48.:03:51.

absolutely. One of the areas which is very exciting is again with

:03:52.:03:55.

industries and investment in place, they wanted to be a great place to

:03:56.:03:59.

live and work and I think that actually arts and culture make

:04:00.:04:04.

places great and some of the exciting places we go around the

:04:05.:04:07.

country right now that we see have arts and culture at the heart of

:04:08.:04:11.

their investment and a good example would be if you talk to the Chief

:04:12.:04:14.

Executive of Exeter Council, the first place he takes anyone who is

:04:15.:04:20.

interested in his job title as director of growth is to the museum

:04:21.:04:25.

there which he is very in excited about. He says this is the place,

:04:26.:04:29.

great museum at the heart of our city that he wants big multinational

:04:30.:04:32.

companies to come and see us stop this is somewhere where your high

:04:33.:04:38.

schools employees could come and live and work and bring their

:04:39.:04:41.

families. Arts and culture make a place. Thank you for that. Can we go

:04:42.:04:57.

to Paul Farrelly. In my area, be going to be a bit parochial but I

:04:58.:05:00.

think I can afford to be because in Staffordshire there is only one

:05:01.:05:03.

national portfolio organisation. I still don't know since our last

:05:04.:05:07.

report whether there are areas in the country with none but I'm sure

:05:08.:05:16.

we will find out in due course. And of course, the backdrop of local

:05:17.:05:24.

authority cuts is really worrying, but amidst everything you are doing

:05:25.:05:30.

at the moment, you have started a national theatre after doing a

:05:31.:05:35.

London theatre and you are found that everything in London really

:05:36.:05:42.

blends so it was a mixed picture in the rest of the country in certain

:05:43.:05:49.

areas. Could you say a little about how that theatre review is going?

:05:50.:05:57.

You were due to have a draft finding by now and to produce the report in

:05:58.:06:04.

June. Just trying give us a feel of that. This was very much around

:06:05.:06:10.

trying to find out because we didn't come with a set of preconceptions of

:06:11.:06:14.

this is an analysis looking at theatre. One of the things we were

:06:15.:06:21.

very interested to see was that there are lots of medium-sized, mid

:06:22.:06:26.

ranged theatres. 400 to 700 feet and we want to say the amount of work

:06:27.:06:34.

that goes their -- 400 to 700 seats. We want to know if the

:06:35.:06:37.

infrastructure is right and what audiences expectations are and how

:06:38.:06:42.

they are led and run. Those are the questions so that data is being

:06:43.:06:45.

assimilated right now and we will have a report in a matter of weeks.

:06:46.:06:49.

That is something that has been worked on and we will be very happy

:06:50.:06:52.

to share it with the committee as soon as it is ready. From the

:06:53.:07:00.

sequence of events, there was an interesting London theatre report

:07:01.:07:02.

and then this review. There should be no necessary implication because

:07:03.:07:05.

we are talking about trying to rebalance investment away from

:07:06.:07:09.

London without harming London, there should be no necessary implication

:07:10.:07:15.

that that would reverse that trend for future investment but regional

:07:16.:07:30.

theatres might be downgraded? On the contrary. What one of our concerns

:07:31.:07:36.

was was that a lot of our work and thrive in the centre of London that

:07:37.:07:39.

is challenging to get audiences outside of London. We want to

:07:40.:07:42.

understand what levers we can use as an arts Council to make that happen.

:07:43.:07:48.

But just to be absolute crystal clear we are completely committed to

:07:49.:07:53.

the rebalance of the funding as we have publicly committed. We are

:07:54.:07:56.

committed to continuing that trend into the foreseeable future and the

:07:57.:08:00.

other thing I would say about the health of the theatre is that the

:08:01.:08:06.

tax credit for theatres is going to, in the end, bring in as much as 20

:08:07.:08:10.

million a year in the next five years. So there are a number of

:08:11.:08:13.

things there which should benefit theatres outside London. Cinemas

:08:14.:08:19.

don't often get brought into it, but there have been some efforts to try

:08:20.:08:22.

and fill some gaps with the cinema showings. Fastest-growing element in

:08:23.:08:29.

the cinema at the moment is the transmission of live performance,

:08:30.:08:34.

not just theatre but opera and dance and so on. 3% of stick sales are

:08:35.:08:40.

enough from them. It is incredibly excitement and if you think about a

:08:41.:08:47.

production from the Don Marc Warren -- the night is on live, 100,000

:08:48.:08:53.

people are watching it. We are just into the Digital millennium. The

:08:54.:08:55.

possibilities of delivering enormous amount of benefit, it should be in

:08:56.:09:01.

addition to building the Varsity not instead of, let's be clear on that,

:09:02.:09:06.

but it is a huge opportunity. And it is not just big names now. The

:09:07.:09:10.

miracle Theatre in Cornwall are taking their big shows and streaming

:09:11.:09:13.

them and getting a worldwide reputation. Have a local institution

:09:14.:09:23.

been knowing about this and that they may be taking a share of a

:09:24.:09:26.

fixed size of the cake rather than a growing cake? There was deafening

:09:27.:09:31.

nervousness when it started. I mention the sharing of the theatre I

:09:32.:09:35.

was at the other day and the lady who runs it was very clear with me.

:09:36.:09:38.

She said two years ago she was totally against it but not using

:09:39.:09:41.

crack be in favour of because she sees the benefit. -- totally in

:09:42.:09:48.

favour of it. We asked the BFI if it was damaging local theatre and it is

:09:49.:09:53.

not. There are some great examples. The Dukes Theatre in Lancashire have

:09:54.:09:57.

a very good cinema programme and a good life theatre programme as well.

:09:58.:10:02.

When I saw a theatre in Hereford, they called me clearly that although

:10:03.:10:07.

NT live shows are also on in the cinema down the road, people like to

:10:08.:10:11.

come to the theatre environment to watch them because it's more

:10:12.:10:17.

artistic as an experience. If you go and see an opera or theatre in the

:10:18.:10:23.

room itself you have a complete different experience than if you are

:10:24.:10:29.

watching closely cut focused close-ups, different styles of

:10:30.:10:33.

acting or appropriate. It is not the same experience and the frequency

:10:34.:10:37.

why I wouldn't be entirely... They are both valid though. A different

:10:38.:10:42.

experience, close-ups and popcorn is what you get in the cinema. A

:10:43.:10:46.

different experience. Nicely put. But you have done work on that and

:10:47.:10:50.

you have an active programme to promote new entrance into this sense

:10:51.:10:55.

we are doing that yes. They are contracted to a production

:10:56.:11:08.

company. It is part of our investment. Getting a better return

:11:09.:11:17.

on investment for arts funding, more people have to see it. We know you

:11:18.:11:25.

say you have a production arm, why did you film that and we will help

:11:26.:11:31.

you to distributed around the country. In parts of the country,

:11:32.:11:37.

that is happening. The cost of capture can vary between ?20,000 to

:11:38.:11:49.

make it available to large amounts of people to 200,000 people to get

:11:50.:11:52.

the high definition close-up and all the rest of it. We are trying to

:11:53.:11:59.

help and give people the strategies. The Royal exchange Theatre wanted to

:12:00.:12:06.

capture the production of Hamlet. They worked and in the end we talked

:12:07.:12:10.

to them and they found a partner. The cost of capture was 120,000 but

:12:11.:12:21.

that is now one a set of all time. Scholars, students and members of

:12:22.:12:25.

the public can access it. We are working on the economic soffits. I

:12:26.:12:38.

want to look at skills and diversity. You were talking about

:12:39.:12:45.

skills gaps and commercial managerial leadership and fund

:12:46.:12:50.

raising. It sounds like improvements are being made there. What else

:12:51.:12:54.

needs to be done and are there other skills gaps in the regions? One of

:12:55.:13:02.

the things I have noticed in my first year is when I talked to arts

:13:03.:13:06.

organisations around the country, whatever branch of the arts they are

:13:07.:13:11.

in, the great organisations tend to have great leaders behind them.

:13:12.:13:17.

There are some very strong leaders right across the arts and culture

:13:18.:13:25.

sector will stop it is interesting where organisations face challenges.

:13:26.:13:29.

The library sector, I have seen some strong leadership from within the

:13:30.:13:32.

library sector where people are imagining what is a great physical

:13:33.:13:36.

cultural space and seeing it in a digital future. One example is is in

:13:37.:13:43.

Worcestershire where they have come together with Worcestershire County

:13:44.:13:45.

Council and brought it together somewhere where you have the

:13:46.:13:48.

students but also have all the things you have from a great modern

:13:49.:13:53.

library as well. That is an example of good thinking. We want to

:13:54.:13:58.

increase capacity for that. We want to invest in the next generation of

:13:59.:14:07.

leaders. Also around diversity is around making sure the leaders are

:14:08.:14:13.

right across the way England looks in the 21st-century. We have had the

:14:14.:14:22.

creative employment programme. Potentially it is 6500 paid

:14:23.:14:28.

apprenticeships and internships. It is important we draw it from many

:14:29.:14:35.

sectors. We are over 4000 placements and that is important. As Darren

:14:36.:14:42.

says, leadership is important and we are" operators and funders of the

:14:43.:14:48.

core leadership programme which has been running for 11 years. We have

:14:49.:14:52.

somebody sitting on my national council who runs museums in

:14:53.:14:56.

Manchester. At all levels were trying to address this. You have

:14:57.:15:04.

mentioned you have been an evangelist for opportunities in the

:15:05.:15:07.

arts. How do you see that going and how can we encourage that in terms

:15:08.:15:11.

of skills and training in the workforce? The 15 years into the

:15:12.:15:17.

Digital millennium. Why would we know precisely how it will go? It is

:15:18.:15:25.

a fantastic opportunity. It is absolutely right that within the

:15:26.:15:31.

arts organisations, one of the ways they distribute their culture would

:15:32.:15:36.

be on video. They need their skills to distribute and the rest of it. We

:15:37.:15:43.

are working on that and we have joint ventures with the BBC, Channel

:15:44.:15:49.

4 and random axe which I am going to the launch of tomorrow night. We

:15:50.:15:56.

They are about getting young artists They are about getting young artists

:15:57.:16:00.

to make films and then finding a way of distributing them. That is

:16:01.:16:03.

additional money going into know-how and digital skills. When we think

:16:04.:16:12.

about the next generation, everybody needs to develop as the digital

:16:13.:16:21.

device -based strategy does. Much of the media consumption now happens on

:16:22.:16:24.

a mobile phone or a tablet and we want to make sure arts and cultural

:16:25.:16:28.

organisations are there because that is where they are getting their

:16:29.:16:33.

entertainment. How can you encourage that and sharing best practice? This

:16:34.:16:38.

goes to the heart of our development role. There are pockets of

:16:39.:16:43.

excellence in this but we all behind in some areas. We are keen to help

:16:44.:16:49.

fast tracked it through. I want to get to a stage where arts and

:16:50.:16:54.

culture organisations are doing things and mail copying us rather

:16:55.:16:57.

than the other way round. We are creative people in the arts and

:16:58.:17:01.

cultural world and we should be able to create some of these things. Part

:17:02.:17:08.

of that is helping them diversify their revenue streams and part of

:17:09.:17:11.

that is modern methods of data collection and data sharing. We are

:17:12.:17:17.

not only collecting audience data to assist but we are requiring people

:17:18.:17:24.

to do this data sharing with other arts organisations and other

:17:25.:17:28.

cultural organisations and to market themselves more effectively. Those

:17:29.:17:30.

skills that will be very important in the future. Turning out the

:17:31.:17:38.

diversity of the workforce. The arts Council made significant progress.

:17:39.:17:47.

12.4 of the work Ferres -- workforce were black and American and many

:17:48.:17:52.

were disabled. Reports have come up highlighting the fact that the

:17:53.:17:58.

workforce at leadership levels and overall is not reflective of

:17:59.:18:02.

society. Could you articulate what you are doing about that? It is not

:18:03.:18:09.

acceptable and we want to change it. That is something we are clear on.

:18:10.:18:14.

For me, one of the interesting things was bound -- around people

:18:15.:18:23.

making decisions. I know we will be doing more over the coming years to

:18:24.:18:28.

increase capability of leadership. Eight and half million pounds of

:18:29.:18:32.

newish Chidgey funds to go into improving diversity within the arts

:18:33.:18:36.

and cultural workforce will be around fast tracking through leaders

:18:37.:18:43.

but also making sure we have a responsibility not just in

:18:44.:18:46.

specialist organisations but across the piece. Historically, we have

:18:47.:18:51.

funded specialist organisations in this area and that has been almost

:18:52.:18:57.

allowing everyone else to get away without taking responsibilities as

:18:58.:19:03.

they should. We are very clear that every organisation, no matter where

:19:04.:19:07.

they are has a responsibility to be working in this area and to do

:19:08.:19:12.

better. In terms of practical changes there has been concerns

:19:13.:19:20.

about the use of voluntary or unpaid work its brilliance and that has

:19:21.:19:25.

from more challenging social from more challenging social

:19:26.:19:28.

economic backgrounds to get into arts and culture. We realise to do a

:19:29.:19:38.

month of work its brilliance, if you can't afford the bus fare, it stops

:19:39.:19:46.

you from taking part. What we are saying is the internship should be

:19:47.:19:53.

paid and we have funded it. We see that as being very important. We

:19:54.:20:04.

will continue to invest in that. I have to congratulate you on name

:20:05.:20:07.

checking every one of our constituencies. I have been to a lot

:20:08.:20:14.

of places across the country but that is because we are a national

:20:15.:20:17.

arts Council and I believe the best thing I can do come into the

:20:18.:20:20.

organisation was to meet the people up and down the country that make

:20:21.:20:30.

great art and culture happen. Thank you very much for that. Take an

:20:31.:20:39.

organisation that is the recipient of funds from you, what do you

:20:40.:20:45.

actually do that requires them to improve the quality of diversity and

:20:46.:20:49.

opportunities they are offering to people of black, ethnic minority or

:20:50.:20:57.

other forms of diverse management? What are you doing to make that

:20:58.:21:02.

happen? We have a funding agreement and help forces in that and we

:21:03.:21:07.

stipulate how they would behave and what they will do. We have signalled

:21:08.:21:13.

quite clearly to the arts and culture sector that the man next

:21:14.:21:17.

funding round which will start in 2018, this will become more

:21:18.:21:23.

important and an important part of decision making. We are publishing

:21:24.:21:32.

the employment statistics and we did it for the first time last December.

:21:33.:21:38.

They had a poor record in diverse employment and that appeared in the

:21:39.:21:49.

local newspapers. We are also measuring it and publishing it. We

:21:50.:21:53.

have been very open and will be very open with our data. You have to be

:21:54.:22:00.

open about this six and publish the data. -- open about their

:22:01.:22:08.

statistics. There is a programme which is about audiences and

:22:09.:22:15.

repertoire. If your repertoire reflects all tastes and everybody

:22:16.:22:19.

who lives in your community, your audiences will also reflect it. We

:22:20.:22:24.

are doing audience measurement and asking people to make their

:22:25.:22:26.

repertoire all embracing and wider. We will be looking into this and

:22:27.:22:35.

will be publishing in the autumn. We intend to measure it, manage it and

:22:36.:22:47.

publish it. How do you... Let me ask you another way, are you confident

:22:48.:22:52.

you are accessible in terms of funding applications to all parts of

:22:53.:22:56.

the arts and performance community? How do you advertise yourselves? We

:22:57.:23:03.

are talking about monitoring the large organisations. How easy is it

:23:04.:23:07.

for some new group of performers, some new collective to make a

:23:08.:23:17.

successful application? It is always a challenge because there are people

:23:18.:23:22.

who know how the system works. We do a lot of work on the ground in local

:23:23.:23:31.

areas. It is about building up that local capacity. We run workshops in

:23:32.:23:35.

areas and will send managers out to work with people. We work with

:23:36.:23:42.

artists who are creating work and we as that question as to why it is

:23:43.:23:47.

happening. We go and talk to them. We are keen to do that and would

:23:48.:23:52.

like to get more people and fund more organisations. If anybody does

:23:53.:23:57.

engage with us, there is a fantastic team based in our Manchester office

:23:58.:24:00.

that work on the phones and they have sat with them in operations and

:24:01.:24:04.

will take them through the entire funding process if they need help

:24:05.:24:09.

with any part of it. We do everything we can with people with

:24:10.:24:13.

visual impairments to make sure things are available. I am sure we

:24:14.:24:16.

can do more and our intention is to do more. We don't want just be

:24:17.:24:20.

funding the same people for the same work all of the time. You can always

:24:21.:24:29.

improve. We are always trying to improve the processes and they can

:24:30.:24:33.

be improved. We are consulting on some changes to applications from

:24:34.:24:36.

next year for the next round of grants for the arts. For instance,

:24:37.:24:43.

the application process for individual artists and small

:24:44.:24:45.

organisations can be simplified further than it is at the moment. If

:24:46.:24:52.

you are a large organisation, quite rightly the arts Council will be

:24:53.:24:56.

asking a lot of you and a lot of data from you. If you are a small

:24:57.:25:00.

organisation, you will have a simpler procedure. We are not

:25:01.:25:04.

satisfied it is simple enough for the smaller organisations. Do you

:25:05.:25:11.

make artistic judgments? Yes. Who makes those? We will make artistic

:25:12.:25:23.

judgments based on our expertise. Our employees will go through. We

:25:24.:25:31.

have been trying to create more objective criteria. We have been

:25:32.:25:34.

putting money into the Manchester metrics which was piloted three

:25:35.:25:40.

years ago. This is a more coherent way of making judgments to which you

:25:41.:25:45.

refer, combined in peer review with audience data and with critical

:25:46.:25:52.

review. Pulling that information together so we are developing a more

:25:53.:25:55.

sophisticated model for the future based on Manchester metrics. That is

:25:56.:26:03.

a way of quantifying almost the artistic merit? It will ride on the

:26:04.:26:12.

composition of those panels to make sure there is sufficient diversity.

:26:13.:26:19.

The other thing I would say though is that we are not investing in art

:26:20.:26:26.

just because we would like it. We are investing in art because we

:26:27.:26:31.

recognise that there is a wide range of different viewpoints of what

:26:32.:26:33.

great art is around the country and we would make sure or seek to make

:26:34.:26:37.

sure we represent all of that. That's what I was going to finish

:26:38.:26:42.

off with. Obviously we are looking at countries of culture, we're

:26:43.:26:45.

looking at art being represented across the UK particular the outside

:26:46.:26:51.

of London, so do those panels represent geographical diversity?

:26:52.:26:56.

Yes, for example, every decision that involves anybody making a

:26:57.:26:58.

funding application in the north-east will be made involving

:26:59.:27:03.

the team in our Newcastle office so for example, as I said, I was in

:27:04.:27:07.

Sunderland on Saturday night. That was a piece of artistic endeavour

:27:08.:27:13.

that was absolutely of Sunderland. It was celebrating Sunderland's

:27:14.:27:16.

cultural heritage and that was a decision to fund the cultural spring

:27:17.:27:22.

which is the organisation put it on involving our team in Newcastle. I

:27:23.:27:27.

want to wind up in a couple of minutes but just a couple of last

:27:28.:27:31.

questions if I may for you. We haven't talked about regional and

:27:32.:27:37.

local museums at all or art galleries. Can we touch on that? How

:27:38.:27:43.

do you see that what you're going to do about it? Yes, first we should

:27:44.:27:50.

put it in context. The largest funding of museums is obviously

:27:51.:27:59.

local authorities and we inherited responsibility about four or five

:28:00.:28:04.

years ago. At the moment we have ?42.5 million to invest in museums.

:28:05.:28:08.

Half of that goes into our major museums of which there are 21. The

:28:09.:28:11.

other half goes into the resilience fund museums which is very much

:28:12.:28:17.

needed. The HLF has a role in the capital funding as well. We are at

:28:18.:28:22.

the moment consulting again, looking at how we change things for next

:28:23.:28:26.

year on how we can open up more of our funds to museums and more of our

:28:27.:28:30.

grounds and archive funding and lottery funding to museums who are

:28:31.:28:37.

an important part of culture. We are really concerned about museums. I

:28:38.:28:40.

think I said in a speech I made a couple of weeks ago that they are at

:28:41.:28:47.

the sharp end of this cuts in local authorities you talked about the

:28:48.:28:51.

Royal Albert easy in Exeter. They are the holders and the because told

:28:52.:28:56.

's of our national identity. They could not be more important in our

:28:57.:29:00.

great treasures in this country and we are concerned about it. I would

:29:01.:29:05.

emphasise that we will do whatever we can and have a very good head of

:29:06.:29:08.

museums you came to us from the British Museum, but we are partners

:29:09.:29:14.

with this in other bigger funders. -- with other bigger funders. The

:29:15.:29:22.

museum sector has seen a reasonable settlement for yourselves and the

:29:23.:29:30.

other arts organisations and the National museums are been largely

:29:31.:29:34.

protected and from their point of view, to use a quote given to me by

:29:35.:29:39.

one person, they seem to be in a proposition whether Government is a

:29:40.:29:45.

patron of the arts and culture for abundant but filler signs outside of

:29:46.:29:49.

London because they are at the sharp end so this is quite crucial to our

:29:50.:29:58.

report. Many how closing or cutting down hours and introducing charges

:29:59.:30:04.

saw the same time, we've got a wide range of review of funding and you

:30:05.:30:09.

can't second-guess what's going to happen in this cultural white paper.

:30:10.:30:14.

From your perspective, do you think there is more than a possibility to

:30:15.:30:18.

make good the funding cuts for the rest of the museums around the

:30:19.:30:23.

country but the prickly issue of charging for entry into London

:30:24.:30:31.

museums will have to be resist? I'll answer that. Darin you can add

:30:32.:30:39.

something. The question of charging in any museum is not something that

:30:40.:30:44.

the arts Council takes a completely theological position on. In that if

:30:45.:30:47.

you look at the Association for independent mediums, and they may be

:30:48.:30:52.

very interesting as a source of information for you as well as the

:30:53.:30:55.

museums Association and the National fund of museums as well, many

:30:56.:31:00.

museums to not receive public money except for the odd bit of capital

:31:01.:31:06.

and they do charge otherwise visibly many have strong tourist economy.

:31:07.:31:09.

What we all believe is that everybody deserves a museum and that

:31:10.:31:12.

if you are a town that doesn't have a strong tourist economy, Taj and

:31:13.:31:16.

would not make any difference. Even if you do charge, there should be a

:31:17.:31:21.

strong access charge so that children and other disadvantage and

:31:22.:31:24.

unemployed people can go to the museum anyway. So even if you

:31:25.:31:26.

charge, you should have a decent access policy. I don't personally

:31:27.:31:32.

take the view that we should never ever charge for museum entry and I

:31:33.:31:36.

see lots of museums now nationally and locally preserving free entry

:31:37.:31:42.

but charging for special exhibitions, charging for friends

:31:43.:31:45.

membership and so on but there are a range of solutions and so I don't

:31:46.:31:50.

take the view of never ever charging. I think it's true to say

:31:51.:31:55.

that it's an area which does cause as concern so local authority museum

:31:56.:32:03.

investment for 2010 to 2015 is down ?23 million so it probably goes by

:32:04.:32:06.

much to the area we were talking at the front end that it is an area of

:32:07.:32:09.

concern. Therefore the parts of the country where museums are causing

:32:10.:32:16.

and we also have a responsibility to protect the collections and those

:32:17.:32:19.

museums are not just the physical buildings, but also the publicly

:32:20.:32:24.

owned property of all different sorts in there. Where the museum

:32:25.:32:28.

sector have been absolutely brilliant is where they gradually

:32:29.:32:30.

reinvented themselves in many cases over the last 20 or 30 years whether

:32:31.:32:34.

used to be repositories of knowledge and information which they almost

:32:35.:32:38.

kept from the very people they were looking after it forward as now I

:32:39.:32:41.

think it has been turned on its head and there are great examples of

:32:42.:32:46.

museums that are making themselves central to tourist destinations in

:32:47.:32:49.

central to cultural investments within places. There is a great

:32:50.:32:52.

buildings were we can put on other cultural and artistic activities but

:32:53.:32:57.

it is a concern. So you would expect quite naturally to touch on all the

:32:58.:33:03.

issues including that prickly issue of charging? I think we are dealing

:33:04.:33:08.

with Government manifesto and therefore I can't answer for how

:33:09.:33:11.

they are going to conduct it but we can only give the arts Council's

:33:12.:33:18.

viewers. In some other countries and some other cities, tourists are

:33:19.:33:23.

charged but not locals. Do you have a view on whether that a greater?

:33:24.:33:27.

Well, my view is not theological and charging so I think there can be

:33:28.:33:30.

different solutions in different places. You would need tourists for

:33:31.:33:33.

that to work and some areas do not have tourist economy so it would be

:33:34.:33:38.

inappropriate. So the large bridge collections could potentially charge

:33:39.:33:43.

tourists but not locals in the some way that they do in some Italian

:33:44.:33:46.

cities. That would be an option in your universe? We are funders of

:33:47.:33:54.

largely, with one exception, museums outside London and those other ones

:33:55.:33:58.

were concerned about and it's those issues that we really have to

:33:59.:34:01.

express a view answer we don't tend to express views on the National

:34:02.:34:05.

museums because they are very different and speak for themselves.

:34:06.:34:10.

And no doubt they will. I'm sure. But just to finalise and end

:34:11.:34:15.

quickly, you have mentioned universities, very poor and part of

:34:16.:34:22.

the -- very important thing but can I do is pick up which is if you look

:34:23.:34:29.

at organisations that are funded every year, through lottery author

:34:30.:34:33.

and council funding, in the West Midlands, I count eight. One is the

:34:34.:34:41.

Russia expert company. -- one is the Royal Shakespeare Company. There are

:34:42.:34:48.

only six, and one is in Wolverhampton. The question is if

:34:49.:34:55.

you need places that create and growth in places outside cities,

:34:56.:34:58.

universities look like a good entry points for that. Can you comment

:34:59.:35:04.

about whether you believe that what you are doing to promote that? I

:35:05.:35:11.

absolutely agree. I was at edge Hill University and a fantastic

:35:12.:35:13.

University University of the year last year. But it fantastic thing

:35:14.:35:17.

there is that they are finding their place. The same with Lancaster. The

:35:18.:35:22.

university is finding its place. So absolutely, and Hull which we have

:35:23.:35:28.

not mentioned yet, the University of Hull was central to getting the

:35:29.:35:32.

application for the city of culture. In Staffordshire the University of

:35:33.:35:36.

Staffordshire are very active at the moment about creating and national

:35:37.:35:42.

centre of ceramics. Lots of things around the country. Universities are

:35:43.:35:45.

great cultural investors and custodians and we see them as very

:35:46.:35:51.

important. What is encouraging is that that is growing. University of

:35:52.:35:55.

Northumbria invested in an art gallery in Newcastle. The University

:35:56.:35:58.

of Sunderland runs a national bus centre are really important skill

:35:59.:36:06.

centre. Universities are funding museums in Middlesbrough. University

:36:07.:36:11.

of Derby opening a redundant theatre in Derby. University of the West of

:36:12.:36:16.

England taking the top two florists of a gallery and saving its economic

:36:17.:36:20.

model and is now on the list of easy and is of the year at the Art fund

:36:21.:36:27.

competition announced as weak. John Moore's University in Liverpool

:36:28.:36:29.

funding Liverpool for LaMonica Orchestra. What greater statement

:36:30.:36:34.

could there be offered University saying we are here to have a better

:36:35.:36:37.

environment for our students and to have a better place for our students

:36:38.:36:42.

to graduate into? -- Philharmonic Orchestra. This is why universities

:36:43.:36:47.

now measure of their graduates and how many are still there after five

:36:48.:36:50.

years which is an interesting measure of their investment in the

:36:51.:36:53.

local authority. I'm glad she raised it. It has enormous potential and is

:36:54.:36:59.

vice chancellors more define their role as pacemakers rarer rather than

:37:00.:37:01.

merely scholastic, we believe it will grow. And you will support that

:37:02.:37:09.

process? Absolutely. Birmingham University went through a growth

:37:10.:37:12.

fund and they are the custodian of the steam house which was a chance

:37:13.:37:17.

is another ?14 million of funding into it so we are seeing them as

:37:18.:37:20.

custodians here. They're culturally aware and literate and they are

:37:21.:37:23.

great partners to work with. We have run on quite a bit but we are very

:37:24.:37:27.

grateful to you for coming in. If you have one final point? I know it

:37:28.:37:33.

could be a very late lunch for members of the committee and forgive

:37:34.:37:37.

me. It's your lunch we are worried about. Oh, you don't get lunch? I

:37:38.:37:43.

want is a one more thing. I'm sure your enquiry will have many

:37:44.:37:48.

interesting and challenging things to say about arts funding across the

:37:49.:37:52.

country, the distribution and mechanisms and everything. It is a

:37:53.:37:55.

great time to be doing the enquiry. Can I make one plea, that in your

:37:56.:38:01.

report, you also join us in reiterating the value of arts and

:38:02.:38:04.

culture, the intrinsic and social value and educational and economic

:38:05.:38:08.

value because that is the argument that we have to win with National

:38:09.:38:12.

Government and local Government every week, every month, every year

:38:13.:38:16.

going forward. We want your help in that. Thank you. Thank you for that.

:38:17.:38:24.

I think it would be improper for me to make any comment on the future.

:38:25.:38:30.

But we greatly thank you for coming in. Thank you for your time.

:38:31.:38:36.

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