Browse content similar to 10/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Welcome to the transport Select Committee. Could we have your name | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
and organisations, please. Good afternoon. I am director for global | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
safety Anfield investigation and certification for General Motors, | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Europe. Good afternoon, I am the vice-president for GM quality in | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
Europe. Good afternoon. Helen Ford head of Government relations and | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
public policy for general moaters in the UK. Thank you very much. | :00:52. | :01:01. | |
How many fires in the Zafira model B are you aware of, who can tell me, | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
how many? Let me check. Maybe I can take this. There are | :01:06. | :01:30. | |
about 287 fires associated to heating and ventilation systems. How | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
many fires in total are you aware of? For ZafiraB? We just wanted to | :01:37. | :01:48. | |
confirm which model you were referring to? I think it's a pretty | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
obvious question to start with, isn't it? This is the reason that | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
you are here today. The first simple question is how many fires are you | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
aware of in ZafiraB? Well, we are aware of the 287 fires that have | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
brought to our attention. 276 fires. Right. -- -- 287. How many of these | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
have been fully investigated by our engineers? Well, we have | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
investigated a large number by the engineers. How many? I have to come | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
back on this one, please. You know, it's a little odd, you have come | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
here to talk about this subject and this is pretty straightforward | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
information, isn't it? How many fires, how many have been | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
investigated by your engineers, you don't know? Well, actually there is | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
59 cases I know that have been investigated. So 59 out of, what did | :02:49. | :02:58. | |
you say, 28... 287. Doesn't sound a lot, does it, what's happened to the | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
others? Maybe what we can say on that one, before the media attention | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
we were only informed about very few of these cases and after the media | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
we got within, I don't know, four to six weeks, we got aware of more than | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
100 additional cases which we have not had a chance to inspect on. That | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
was sometime ago, wasn't it? The media attention was sometime ago. So | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
how many have you investigated? Can no one tell me how many have been | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
investigated by your engineers? The recalls were older vehicles and they | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
had been scratched before we could investigate them. The figure that | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
was referred to, the 49, the 59 vehicles of the 59 vehicles that we | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
have investigated. We have been able to see ourselves. What's happened to | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
the others? 59 you have investigated and what is that over 200 you | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
haven't investigated. So what's happened to those? Several of those | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
vehicles, number one we couldn't get access to. A lot of the vehicles are | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
even scrapped before we can get there. So, for instance, I know | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
about one case where we sent out our fire investigation team but actually | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
the vehicle was scrapped before we could get access and really do the | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
detailed analysis. When you said you couldn't get access to them, what | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
does that mean exactly? In what way couldn't you get access to them? | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
First of all, if there is a fire case and the customer needs to ask | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
their insurance company and permission for them, for us to do | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
the inspections, without that permission we can not do the | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
inspection. Did you seek permission? Yes. Was it refused? In some cases | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
it is refused, that's right, yes. Who was it refused by? Sometimes by | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
the customers, sometimes if we approach the insurance companies, | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
the vehicles are already scrapped and especially in the Zafira cases a | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
lot of cases were old cases which were brought to the attention later | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
on there could be no physical inspection realised any longer. So | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
how big a problem is this that you weren't able to get access, how many | :05:13. | :05:20. | |
cars did you try to get access to? Well, I think... We should really | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
think about the cars we want to get access to. How many did you try to? | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
The recall and to really get the repair. It's very important for us | :05:30. | :05:40. | |
to truly reach out to our customers. I am asking how many cars did you | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
try to get access to? I didn't give you that figure. It's strange that | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
you have come here to answer questions on this topic and you | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
can't tell me how many cars you tried to get access to. I think it's | :05:52. | :05:59. | |
very important that now that we have identified a final fix for our | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
vehicles that we reach out to the customers. It's all right talking | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
about reaching out, I am asking you a direct question, not reaching out. | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
I am asking what you have done and you can't tell me how many cars you | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
tried to get access to after these fires have occurred? As soon as we | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
get aware of fire cases we actually reach out to the customers and ask | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
them for permission in order to inspect those vehicles. A lot of | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
those cases actually were historical ones which happened over, not just | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
in 2016, and we have sent out our team to inspect wherever we could | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
get access to those vehicles. But it's a bit odd you can't tell me how | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
many you tried to get access to and failed to, it's very, very odd. | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
You talked about 59 out of 287. You have said that you didn't have | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
access to all of those, how do you know those 287 have indeed had fires | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
that were related to the heating and you described some other fault, if | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
you haven't got them how do you know it's 287 that you referenced a | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
specific reason why they went up in fire if you have not had access to | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
vehicles? There is descriptions which we get from our customer, | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
contact centres which have been talking to our customers on how the | :07:28. | :07:38. | |
fire evolved. I think we have a clear indication that this is a very | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
strong part. To confirm you have never seen those cars with the | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
exception of 59. So you are going on someone else's say so? What we are | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
saying is that after the media response we got a lot of calls in | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
our call centres and they informed us later on they also had to... They | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
were no longer available, this is where the number is coming from. | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Again, perhaps you can help, you said it was 287 where there were | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
fires caused in the heating or something else. Heating or | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
ventilation system. Right. That's quite specific. You yourself haven't | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
been able to acertain that's really where the fire started. How can you | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
rely on that data? It's specific to expect the customers... This is the | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
problem with the data reliability and this is what we are shooting | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
for, we need better data for us and for the whole industry to rely on. | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
Often we just get not aware of it, if a vehicle fire occurs and the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
customer is approaching insurance and the insurance is paying him out | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
and in most of the cases we never get any information about that one. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Therefore, we need a better data source where all this information is | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
collected so there are data collection in the fire services, in | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
the insurance companies. When you came before us last time we went | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
through this. Have you had any fires since this committee met with the | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
team that you sent? After the second part of the recall we did not have | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
any additional fire in these vehicles. Any since we last met up, | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
which I think was last July? I would have thought after that you would | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
have moved heaven and earth to get hold of those vehicles and strip | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
them apart, have you done that because the impression you are | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
giving is you doesn't know, doesn't feel like anything's changed? | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
Actually what we have been doing is, from the first recall we had parts | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
sent back to us in the technical centre and we had about 1,000 parts | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
from the first recall which we then actually did investigate and I think | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
we have seen first indication for recourse but we have also seen that | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
there is a second part of a root cause which is the effective use and | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
that's why we have initialiated the second recall on the 8th August, | :10:18. | :10:27. | |
2016. A quick question before I come back, | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
chair. Could I ask each of the panel | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
members just to very quickly tell me of the 287 customers who have been | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
affected with the fires how many have you personally met with? Each | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
of you, if you could tell me. I haven't met with any of those | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
customers affected, it's not the line of job I am employed. Actually | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
there are colleagues who have personally met them, I have not a | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
chance to meet them. Same as with me. So none of the panel have met | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
any of the families whose cars went on fire. We have not had the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
opportunity. Not had the opportunity? It's been quite a | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
while. Some of our colleagues have done. And the customer care team and | :11:10. | :11:19. | |
their responsibility... I am looking at the biographies. We have the | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
vice-President of GM Quality Europe, the director of global safety | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
Anfield investigations and the head of Government relations and public | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
policy, that makes up the panel before us. None of you have thought | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
to take half a day to meet any of the people who have been affected by | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
it? Just a couple of hours? OK. Thank you, chair. I will probably | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
want to come on to suggestions about how we better have a data management | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
later in this session, but I am confused at the minute, of the 200 | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
and so fires you are aware of, I understand that some of them you | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
wanted to investigate but couldn't because they had already been | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
scrapped, the insurer had written them off. I would - if I was an | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
insurance company and I started seeing a pattern that there was a | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
fire in a particular model of car, I would want to be starting to ask | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
some questions. So, in all the cases that you are aware of has the | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
insurer just said it's been on fire, we are going to write it off, issue | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
a cheque to the owner, or what steps did they take that you are aware of | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
to acertain the cause of the fire in the first place? I think you are | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
bringing up a very good point. First of all, there are multiple numbers | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
of fire cases in the UK. Last time I think we came to see you we had a | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
figure of about 18,000. Now there is data which goes up to 100,000. | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
Whatever data source we believe I think it would be really beneficial | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
if insurance companies would share their data with us if Fire Brigades | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
would share their data with us and I totally agree that it will be much | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
more beneficial for us to have that data so we could send our people to | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
really investigate those cars at the point where that fire is going to | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
take place and not maybe two or three years later where it comes to | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
our at this answerings and that is I think one of the key proposals that | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
we would like to make, not just for the benefit of us, but for the | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
benefit of the industry and I think ultimately also for the customer. | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
I appreciate that is what we might want to look at going forward but | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
I'm still not clear in my mind, I've had a car, it's gone on fire, I | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
reported to my insurance company. What steps do they take to ascertain | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
the cause of that? That may put it another way. How many other fires | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
are you aware of in your vehicles that are not related to the | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
particular heating control the fact we are aware of? Do you mean in | :14:17. | :14:24. | |
other cars? Yes, I'm trying to get the picture in my mind, if I was an | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
insurance company, how many fires in Vauxhall cars would I expect a year? | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
I think fires are involved in all of the car lines from us and our | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
competitors. As we mentioned, in this one source, they are saying | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
100,000 vehicle fires in the UK only and 65% of these cards are because | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
of criminal intent and a lot of other fires are because of poor | :14:56. | :15:04. | |
maintenance. And also our portion, what the side-effects are, we don't | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
want to play that output for us is difficult to identify if a fire is | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
related to a design defect or it is other purposes. This is also white | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
forensic investigation is difficult because the fire itself often | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
destroys the trace the origin of the fire and therefore it is very | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
difficult for us, just from the number to identify if there is a | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
root cause behind or not full so what would help us, if there was a | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
consolidated data source that we can at least see a trend on that. This | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
is what we don't have. Forgive me for pressing. Do the insurance | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
companies make that effort to find out the cause of the fire or is it | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
that they just recorded as a fire? Is it a day to release issue or do | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
these insurance companies need to take steps themselves to find out | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
the source? The Biglia fire happens, the customer notifies the insurance | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
company -- typically. They might choose to send a settlement agent | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
that will look at the car but those are typically no forensic fire | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
investigators. They look at the car and take the first assessment and | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
they decide on the settlement of the case. Unfortunately, there is no | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
direct link back to us which then would be able to probably go deeper | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
in order to truly understand the nature of the fire. | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
Thank you, chair. I should declare that I am an owner of the Zafira but | :16:47. | :16:57. | |
not one of the models effected. What happens in the rest of Europe? Is it | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
only in the UK where they have had car fires? The Opel badge? What do | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
they have with the rest of Europe and reporting mechanisms? Does | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
another country have a system of reporting fires? This specific case | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
is related to the UK vehicles, or let me say to the right hand driven | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
vehicles. And of course there are other countries affected, like | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
Malta, which is on the same road, but we do not seek fire cases on | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
that relation. But we cover this in our recall activities as well. So it | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
is a different component in the left-hand drive vehicles? The | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
location is different and if you drive on the other side of the road, | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
it is different, what is the middle of the and in one country is the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
left side and the other the right side. So you are not seeing Zafira | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
fires in other European countries? No. And I think you also touched on | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
one aspect, if we have another country is a better system of data | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
feedback. I think probably UK could set a standard in introducing such a | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
system and other European countries could absolutely learn from that. | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
Maybe I can add in addition we are in close contact with the DVSA here | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
and also thinking to get the field action as soon as possible done to | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
get very high fulfilment rate. For example in other countries we have a | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
system where we write three comes to the customers and after that the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
customers will Dignitas from the authorities if they do not react on | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
that recall request, vehicles will be ground. And this helps to speed | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
up these regal measurements for us and the industry and in addition, | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
what we think about is also the MOT, you have a yearly MOT system here in | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
the UK, and if there would be a requirement to check if there is an | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
outstanding recall on these vehicles, this would help us and a | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
whole industry a lot as well here. How have you dug with customers who | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
have not responded? What efforts have you made to contact them? After | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
now the written up to 1.2 million letters to customers. There are | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
customers out there who have received up to seven letters | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
inviting them to actually seek assistance and repair for their | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
vehicle and also dealers. In addition, where we have data from | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
the customers, we have given them a call we have them an e-mail and | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
really reached out to try for them to get in contact. I think up to | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
date and then say that we managed repair now 165,000 of the Zafira Bs | :20:14. | :20:23. | |
in order to get the final fix implemented. Our dealers have put up | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
additional hours during the week but also have devoted a lot of time | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
during the weekend in order to execute the recall. People from our | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
plants who have been trained and support our dealers in order to do | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
so and in order to make the waiting time for each customer very short we | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
also have now directed that two technicians are working on one car | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
so we can do that rather rapidly so the customer doesn't have to wait | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
very long. We have also added resources when it comes to the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
customer contact centres that are the centres who make the | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
appointments. We try to make sure that we can maximise the | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
opportunities for customers to come and seek the support of the dealers. | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
As you have truly stated, we really have to get access to our customers | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
and convince them to come and get their car being fixed. There was a | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
delay at the start of the second recall, wasn't there, because you | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
didn't have parts? Why did that happen? Actually there wasn't really | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
a delay of the recall. We have very rapidly worked with our suppliers in | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
order to make sure we have parts. I think I can really state that today | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
we have the capacity as well as the parts and we could theoretically | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
finish the whole recall in the next month, if customers come and see us | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
and would actually make an appointment together with us. Maybe | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
one additional comment. What also is missing is the data accuracy. We | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
have a lot of data from vehicles which may no longer on the road, and | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
we're not talking about a few hundred, we're talking about 16,000 | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
or something like that, where we are not sure, together with the dealers | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
and the DVLA, if they are still on the roads. This is also some point, | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
if we would get a better help to understand which vehicle really are | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
out and not scrapped or whatever, that would help us as well. You said | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
the problem was really unauthorised repairs. Why did you say that when | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
you never identified who had been doing the alleged unauthorised | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
repairs? When we got aware of the fire cases, we did a field survey | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
and asked our dealers, please return back, I think more than a thousand | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
resistors to us and we did a check on them and found 2.7% of these were | :23:06. | :23:16. | |
manipulative. 2.7% of what? Of the resisters we got returned out of the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
field. Did you name the people you're done these unauthorised | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
repairs? No. So if you blame the problem on unauthorised repairs, why | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
didn't you take more trouble to identify those people? It is very | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
difficult to identify those because, at a certain point of time, | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
customers do not come to authorised repairers. Instead of blaming who | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
has done these authorised repairs we have taken at the first indication | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
that this was one of the two root causes, we're taking action and | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
initiated the first recall. However, although we haven't really done | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
those false repairs, we have taken responsibility for that and have | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
taken action. We also continued the root cause analysis and we did | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
identify a second part of root cause which wasn't actually a false repair | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
but which was, according to the design of this fuse. Therefore we | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
have initiated the second recall which actually has been exchanging | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
and bringing the car back to the original stage which was the first | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
recall, but taking a different technical path and using a fuse | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
which is much more reliable and resistant in that configurations | :24:52. | :25:00. | |
versus the potential of causing any problem. How many cars caught fire | :25:01. | :25:09. | |
after the first recall? I think what I can say, directly after the first | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
fire after the first recall, that was a vehicle which was prepared and | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
caught fire and that was for us again the trigger... How many? I | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
don't have the figure. Why don't you know? You knew you were coming here | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
today to answer these questions and that is another fairly basic | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
question. We did not get the questions before. You just don't | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
know. If you're asking for specific figures, of course we can deliver. I | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
am asking for those figures but I'm also is pressing surprise that you | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
have come here to answer questions about this very unsatisfactory | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
situation and you haven't got the basic information on it. There is a | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
pricing and not very good. In terms of those who drive these | :26:05. | :26:19. | |
cars, it is traditionally a family car used for school trips, holidays, | :26:20. | :26:28. | |
trips to hospital and all the rest of it and think it's probably fair | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
to say that your customers, in the UK at least, are very loyal to your | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
brand. They have been for many years. I hosted some of your | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
customers who had been effected by this in Parliament just before | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Christmas, in this corridor actually, the group came in, and | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
they have sent some notes to me about the recall process and also | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
how they feel your company has handled the whole process since it | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
began and I just want to read some of this out to you. The notes say, | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
some customers were made to feel like a nuisance. When they go | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
through the recall process, the attitude from dealerships have been | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
met with disgust. They say that vehicles are often returned to them | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
with further problems, with the heating and ventilation system. It | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
can sometimes take up to two or three new motors to find one that | :27:34. | :27:44. | |
works. And the impact here says that customers are made to feel like | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
second-class citizens. Do you recognise any of this? We apologise | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
if customers from the recall was to fix the problem and our dealers were | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
trying to make the process as smooth and easy for our customers and we | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
understand that might be the case the whole time. We for the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
additional inconvenience. There are specific cases, we can follow that | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
up afterwards. You must be aware of some of these cases. We are aware | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
and we have instructed our retailers and also given out additional | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
guidance to them to ensure and to remind the middle is to make sure | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
that the heating and ventilation system is in good working condition | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
before the vehicle is passed back. That's not happening. We recognise | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
it's fitted that I have been mistakes. If you have any specific | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
examples of any of that, please let us know and we can follow it up | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
directly with the customers and retailers. | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
Would either of you like to add anything to that? No. Nothing to say | :28:50. | :29:01. | |
to - you know, I think your customers have been treated pretty | :29:02. | :29:03. | |
shoddily and they are being bandied around from pillar to post. I cannot | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
think of another probably duct in the United Kingdom at the moment, | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
where people have set up a campaign group to come to Parliament to try | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
to get MPs to resolve it. -- another product. Some are sat behind in the | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
audience listening to you. I would have thought you would have | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
something more to add for the experience. Some of these people's | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
children don't want to go in a car again and some people have had their | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
homes damage as a result of this. Well, what I would personally like | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
to say is that I'm very sorry for the evening frightening subpoenas | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
our customers have gone through and there was probably nothing we can do | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
to make it unhappen and what we can do and I think it has been pointed | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
out, we would really like to make any experience coming to see us and | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
getting their vehicle fixed, as positive and as straightforward as | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
possible and that is where we have put a lot of effort in. In addition, | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
those customers who have gone through a fire, they probably have | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
also had personal losses, like, you know, personal belongings, things | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
they really felt important about which are not insured, so we have | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
now been reaching out to those customers, in order to make sure | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
that we understand those cases and situations and that we can find a | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
settlement, together with them, to compensate them, not just for the | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
insured losses but also for the ininsured losses. Of the 287 that | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
you say where people have losses, insured or otherwise, of the 287, in | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
terms of reaching that et islement, how many are outstanding -- reaching | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
that settlement? We have been reaching out to 160 so far where we | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
are currently in the discussion and trying to seek a settlement and we | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
will, of course, step-by-step approach all outstanding cases. | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
I want to come back to the point on insurance, in your interaction. Have | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
you contacted all of the main insurers in the market to make the | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
pointed that - we would actually like to see all of the cars that | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
you've had claims registered against, particularly in the class | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
of Safira, Corsa, so you can get better access to the car wrnchts we | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
work with the insurance company, and where we are aware of the fire and | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
had permission. We have worked with the insurance company to inspect | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
vehicles that were available. When we talk about having better access | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
to data, this is an industry issue and so with our trade body, working | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
with the asAssociation of British Insurers and looking at an | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
industry-to-industry solution to this problem. Do you think insurers | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
are taking it seriously enough? On the one hand it is your reputation, | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
your brand, but you if you can't get control, you can't get hold of the | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
asset. And also with the insurance, if they don't have t they cannot pay | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
out. Have you seen an uptick in the number of cars being delivered back | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
to you, that have been involved in fires? With Zafira a unique | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
situation, it was an older vehicle, and some of the fires happened years | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
ago, so they weren't scrapped. But we have a working industry with the | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
insurance industry and with the trade body, this is an area where | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
they are keen to work on, ongoing. Do you think something is required | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
compulsory, along the lines of, if a vehicle is damaged by fire, from its | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
engine or any component there, should be a requirement, before an | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
insurer pays out, for that car to be expected so that the market knows | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
what the issue is? Absolutely but obviously a customer unfore-Tube | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
ately with a fire is having compensation -- unfortunately. What | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
we would like to see is the availability for us to investigate | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
as soon as possible, we don't want to hold up the process of customers | :33:26. | :33:34. | |
being reimbursed from an insurance company, for example, but we would | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
like to have better access, and data and better checks. Can I just check, | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
other motor manufacturers, so this fault could be common to other motor | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
manufacturers, did you contact other motor manufacturers to let them know | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
you are aware of something and perhaps share information in case | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
they had the same issue with their vehicles as well? What I can say on | :33:56. | :34:08. | |
this one, of course we inform the authorities on this one and there is | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
a European system where all the customers and other authorities are | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
informed about. We cannot get, for example, if we have a | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
supplier-caused issue or part of a supplier part is in question, we | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
will not get the data from our competitors because of the antitrust | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
law but what he doing, when in contct with the authorities, we name | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
them, the supplier we are working with and they approach the supplier | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
and they are asking the question which other manufacturers are using | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
the same component. I remember six months ago, when your team game | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
before us, Chair, and I asked the que, and the answer was no, which I | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
think we all thought was a bit of a poor show. So I received an | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
assurance that afternoon that other manufacturers would be contacted. I | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
didn't expect it to be that afternoon, but I would have thought | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
that GM would have putted a call into other motor manufacturers, | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
rather than leaving it to regulators and what have you. Not least because | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
you assured me that you would. But, also, it is common sense, isn't it? | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
Well, we have been working with our supplier and that supplier exactly | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
knows in which - who are their other customers. What we, however, need to | :35:23. | :35:31. | |
say is that most, you know, this very specific same part, most | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
probably, is not being used in the very same configuration in any other | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
system. However, we have advised our suppliers about any findings that we | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
had and also the risks that we see, with regard to our very specific | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
component and you know, they know exactly who their customers are. I | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
find that a bit of an unsatisfactory answer. Six months ago we were | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
assured something would happen. Actually your team suggested. It | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
struck me as common sense to do that and it hasn't been done. I find that | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
pretty extraordinary. Sorry, as has been explained we are prohibited to | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
a certain extent with competition law and so there are processes in | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
place that we explained in a follow-up letter afterwards to the | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
committee, after our evidence in July. I will be amazed if | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
competition law stopped you from health and safety perspective to | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
contact on the most general of terms, other motor manufacturers to | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
say - we have an issue specific to these parts, you may well want to | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
check you have these parts as well, we are putting you on notice. I | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
understand the question. The supplier reached out to its | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
customers, we would not know the competition or supplier's customers. | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
It is always a question back from the authorities, where you do the | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
notification to, which partsome affected and which supplier and then | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
we give the name of the supplier to the authority and they approach the | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
supplier to get this information from them. | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
It is really really very convincing, it is not clear if you have not done | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
anything, if you don't want it tell us about it. | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
Are Zafira owners and drivers still at risk? | :37:21. | :37:32. | |
W we have advised our Zafira drivers to operate their vehicle under a | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
blower motor condition of oat 0 or 4. At that point of time there is no | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
risk for the Zafira drivers but I would strongly recommend that the | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Zafira drivers are coming to seek us so we can finalise the recall and | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
their vehicles can be operated under any conditions. Are you absolutely | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
satisfied that you, as a company, have done everything possible to | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
eliminate the risk as best you can? Well, we have been reaching out | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
several tierges even before any recall was issued, so that we advise | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
our customers how they can actually avoid the risk... So are you | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
satisfied that they are safe, that's what Mr Vicars is asking you. We | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
keep being told you reach out but Mr Vickers is asking, are the drivers | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
safe and the occupants of the cars? Well, let me put it this way, with | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
every safety recall it is a serious situation and I personally cannot be | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
satisfied to have safety recall but I am very confident that we have | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
done what is right in order to mitigate the situation and now offer | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
the customer a quick fix for their vehicle so that we eliminate any... | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
But are they safe, Mr Vickers is something you, are they safe? | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
If the question s if the fix has been done, then yes, we say the | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
vehicle is safe to drive, if this is the question. For the remaining | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
ones, which are not in our garages for the fix, we suggest they come in | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
as soon as possible to get this done and to operate their vehicle safely. | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
So there are still vehicles out on the road where there is there is | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
still risk. Following on from that, are you | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
satisfied that your dealers have done everything, through their | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
network to contact drivers? You have written to something like 1.2 | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
million people. Letters go astray. Letters get put behind the clock on | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
the mantelpiece and forgotten. What repeated actions have you taken as a | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
company and dealer network to make contact with people? Where we have | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
data and can validate it, we are using other data point like phones | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
and e-mail to directly contact customers who have not come in yet. | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
Where we don't have the that detail we have gone to the RAC and AA it | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
validate information with them and using their contact details to again | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
address those customers. Now there are still customers out there, that | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
we know have received the letter and haven't had the recall work done, | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
they are the registered owners N those circumstances, what we are | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
proposing to do, we ask the DVSA if we can do a joint letter with that | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
customer's insurance company to remind them to have a completed | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
safety recall, and without that it could invalidate the customer's | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
insurance. We are asking the DVSA for permission to undertake that | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
step as well. With some of the outstanding figures, as Thomaz | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
highlighted, there are around 13,000 of the outstanding Zafira's that no | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
v no registered keeper. They are what is known as sold to trade. They | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
have been sold to trade between six months and up to three years. We are | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
working with the DVSA to validate that because there is no registered | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
keeper, what wrird to do is to notify the previous registered | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
keeper where we have an address but we are aware they are not the owner | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
of that vehicle because they've passed them on to trade. So that's | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
an area where we can keen to work with the DVSA on, going forward in | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
how we can eliminate that. I want to return to the point about | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
the insurance companies. What is the situation, if a vehicle is found to | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
have a faulty part and it burns to the ground, does the insurance | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
company bear the ultimate cost of paying out on that, or does that | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
come back to the manufacture? I think in the cases we have seen, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
where - I couldn't say with any confidence exactly what happened, | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
our understanding, my understanding is that insurance companies have | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
compensated companies have compensated the owner and then we | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
have compensated the insurer. So if you are compensating the insurer, | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
but any manufacturer who had a similar problem is compensating the | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
insurer, does that not give you an ownership right to the vehicle. So, | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
f heaven forbid my Zafira goes up into flames and I go to my insurance | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
company and they pay out, the insurance company is going to GM and | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
say - it has gone up in flames because of this fault, therefore you | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
need to put the insurance company back in fupds so the insurance | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
company is not at a loss, so effectively then you own my Zafira. | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
The insurance company would not necessarily do the forensic | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
investigations to pinpoint the root cause and fires are destructive by | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
nature so establishing the cause is very difficult. So the insurance | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
company will do an initial assessment, as joy understand it and | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
part of that is pretty much to rule out criminal be intent of activity | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
and then there is a settlement. We are then, where we are aware of t we | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
are then able to inspect that vehicle afterwards. I know you are | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
asking about whether or not weather then we own T I don't have that | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
information. We can come back. On what basis do Manufacturer 's | :43:26. | :43:35. | |
like GM paid insurance companies? Do you say, for example, for every | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
thousand cars that are insured, if there is a claim on those you pay | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
out 10%? How does it work? We do the compensation in the case that we | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
understand and we see that we have a design or Manufacturing related | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
issue and have issued a safety recall. That is not the common | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
practice, the common practice is the insurer sends an inspector to see | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
the car and does the first judgment and understand the settlement and | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
that is how the insurer pays out the customer. In this case we have said, | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
because of the safety recall, we will actually compensate for the | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
insurer for the same amount of settlement that he has done those of | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
their customer. I understand that, but in terms of generally, | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
run-of-the-mill, somebody has a problem with their Insignia and it | :44:40. | :44:48. | |
is shown to be Manufacturing problem, do you not routinely | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
compensate the insurance company? Well, I would say it is very hard | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
for the Inspector of the insurance company to find out whether there is | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
a manufacturing related issue. That is why we would seek to have that | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
short cut of information coming towards us in order to get the | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
opportunity to do a detailed investigation. However, as we have | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
been pointing out before, data shows that about 65% of all of the fire | :45:21. | :45:29. | |
cases are due to arson and often this is very obvious. The next piece | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
of occurrence is weak maintenance and some of that can also be very | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
obvious. Then there is the remainder which is very difficult to find out | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
and there are really detailed investigation is necessary in order | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
to find out. And sometimes evidence will never be able to be found | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
because the fire destroyed that key criteria of evidence. And if we get | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
the chance of a very early Nick Hurd -- notification of the fire and we | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
get in contact with the insurance company to investigate, we do it | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
together. That is the best situation for us. Do you not think it is | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
strange that the insurance company has a vested interest in finding out | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
who is really responsible, that they don't bother, presumably because we | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
will pay the premiums at an increased level? There is quite an | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
onus on the insurance company that they have an opportunity here to | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
hold accountable those who should be held accountable and they are not | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
bothering. I think they have started to react to our requests in a | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
cacique if we can find a joint database where not just insurers but | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
also by brigades, who often will be called in case of a fire, in all of | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
those data would come together in one place so that not just us but | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
all manner factors could have access to it, that would be very helpful. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
It also increases the data points we can use to see if there is a trend | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
and can take action much faster. There are now fires in Corsa B | :47:20. | :47:27. | |
models now. What is the problem in that -- coarser D. | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
This is about a safety recall we issued in April 2015. It is on the | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
pump relate box that is supporting the braking system. We have about | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
4000 vehicles affected in the UK, it is a 1.4 turbo engine, out of a | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
fleet of 700,000 vehicles and we already reworked 3000 of them. We | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
had one fire case when we started the investigation and data on a | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
second one. These are the two known cases we have. After the media | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
response, there is one potential additional one but these are the | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
three cases we are aware of. What is the reason for those fires? It is | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
water ingress into the Relay box and that can be a short circuit. Can I | :48:22. | :48:30. | |
ask if Vauxhall have ever refused to investigate a fire when it's been | :48:31. | :48:38. | |
reported to them by a customer? Going back before the media | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
attention and all the rest of it, have you ever refused to investigate | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
customer claims fire? I don't have that information but I can certainly | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
go back to the team and look back and get back to you. We do expect to | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
have refused? -- would you have. To my knowledge, we have fire is that | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
work with us so we have the resources and I couldn't see a | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
reason why we wouldn't do that but I can't say with any certainty. If I | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
can take that back to the wider team in the office and get back to you. | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
You would be interested to know of any cases that have been brought to | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
our attention where customers have said they had reported fires and | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
they were essentially palmed off. If you have that information, please | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
let us know and we can go through and trace that and come back to you | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
specifically. It just so happens that there are people with those | :49:35. | :49:36. | |
exact cases here in Parliament this afternoon. Could I ask each one view | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
to take the time to have a chat with them at the end of the session? | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
Certainly, I would do that. That would be very helpful also briefly, | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
chair, going back to the communication with customers. You | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
have been writing a lot of letters and sending a lot of e-mails and you | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
set up a Facebook ad to raise awareness of the issue. How | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
successful do you judge that to I don't have those figures | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
specifically... You don't seem to have an awful lot with you. There | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
were a wide variety of areas on those themes as to what we would be | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
discussing today. We felt we were the right people to answer those | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
questions. That this the vast amount of work that goes on across the | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
whole business so I might not have all that information but I don't, I | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
can get back to you. There is a Facebook group which has about | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
16,500 people on it who are owners of the models affected. We are aware | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
of the existence of the group, it is a closed group. Have you tried to | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
reach out to them specifically? Yes, I believe our customer care director | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
is in contact with the team and they are in discussions with them as we | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
speak. Good. And the more general question, and perhaps it would be | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
one for you guys to answer. You have this problem with the Zafira models | :51:11. | :51:18. | |
and with Corsas but thinking of the industry more widely, there is the | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
Volkswagen emissions scandal, there is problems with just about every | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
manufacturer, Renault, Peugeot. I would go so far as to say that the | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
reputation of the industry is probably at the lowest point it has | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
ever been. How do you see the industry gaining back public trust, | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
given all these scandals that exist in different manufacturers including | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
yourselves? And how are you going to get public trust back? | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
Every recall and every safety recall is a very severe issue so giving it | :51:59. | :52:12. | |
a lot of attention in order to get it fixed is a very important point. | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
Unfortunately we cannot turn the clock backwards. However, the | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
question is how we learn quickly and make sure that any new project we | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
bring out, any new car we bring out, we'll get all of the learnings from | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
the history. But making sure, in case there was any risk associated, | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
and we get the first incident of any risk, we quickly take very diligent | :52:44. | :52:51. | |
actions, we quickly investigate the situation and we take actions in | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
order to correct in case there is an issue out there. And of course you | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
might debate how much is quickly and how much emphasis we put on the bike | :53:02. | :53:09. | |
can assure you that safety is absolutely our first priority in our | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
company -- I can assure you. We had picked at the top, beat the safety | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
of our customers, our employees, but our business partners -- be it the | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
safety. Each board meeting we had been putting safety on top of our | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
agenda and we are starting each one of those. That gives us the | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
opportunity to raise issues, take decisions quickly and really | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
execute. Do you have anything to add to that on what you should do | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
differently now? That is absolutely right what Elvira is saying and in | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
addition now culture, we introduced in the safety by month, every | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
employee can raise up a safety issue to a specific board so this is | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
documented and will be followed up in the safety arena. What about the | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
problem you are facing? You have two models with fires where drivers and | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
passengers are fighting. Should you be doing anything different now to | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
restore confidence? -- are frightened. What we're doing when | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
Woody at taking position on recalls, we do not necessarily wait until we | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
have the root cause -- when we are taking. If we can minimise the risk | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
to the customer we go out already to start the recall and go back in a | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
second wave to fix the problem finally. Of course this causes | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
inconvenience to the customers but this is what we're doing to protect | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
them as much as possible. We must close this session now, we will be | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
writing to you with further information that we require so thank | :54:54. | :54:54. | |
you for coming in. Could I have your name and positions | :54:55. | :55:10. | |
please? Pete Ahern, operations director. Gareth Llewellyn, chief | :55:11. | :55:18. | |
Executive of DVSA. Andy King, head of enforcement. We were told last | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
and that you were surprised at the length of time timetabled for | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
Vauxhall for the Zafira recall. Have you done anything about making that | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
action quicker and more effective? What have you been doing about the | :55:35. | :55:43. | |
problem? Mr Llewellyn. We went through about 75,000 vehicle | :55:44. | :55:45. | |
identification numbers and matched up against the MOT register for | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
Vauxhall and we concluded there were about 12,500 Zafira cars which were | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
outside the MOT, they don't have a valid MOT. Some only just but some | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
by a very long wait also we have identified another 5500 where they | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
have no MOT history, maybe because they have been taken abroad when | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
they were first registered. We tried to slim down the number when we | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
believe there are active models on the road at the moment to enable | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
Vauxhall to be able to focus their marketing campaign. We are a little | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
concerned in that space because a number of the letters originally | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
sent out have been referred back to DVLA, and DVLA were not part of the | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
original process and what has come from that is we believe the mail | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
merge undertaken by Vauxhall was not done successfully on some occasions | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
and the letters did not end up with the right people so we are talking | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
to them about how to rectify that position to make sure the right | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
owners get the letters suggesting that models should be recalled. | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
Kristen Stewart? -- Mr Stewart. In the previous | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
session I try to get some detail as to what an insurance company would | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
examine when it gets a claim for a car that has caught fire. I still | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
haven't got a proper answer as to what checks they would do to | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
identify what is causing the fire and, if so, how that might be | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
relayed to yourselves or to the manufacturers, that there is a | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
pattern developing that needs to be investigated and rectified. What is | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
your position on that? We have applied to the Association of | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
British insurers for access to the mode industry and theft register | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
because we don't understand quite what is involved in that the moment | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
and it might give us a better insight into the sort of information | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
the industry holds and the sorts of things they are looking for and we | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
can then map that onto where we think certain safety recalls are to | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
answer this question if there should be some sort of Central register of | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
issues effecting vehicles. Until we have sight of that register, it is | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
rather difficult to comment on that at the moment. My question is, is | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
that investigatory work done at all and enjoys are not racing -- not | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
releasing it, or do they need to put in place a better system for | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
following up? I find it quite strange that they would just write | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
off checks to their policyholders without properly investigating the | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
cause. And if there is a pattern developing, that should be | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
translated to yourselves and a fatuous are you aware that that work | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
is done and it is just they are withholding it or do they need to be | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
taking additional steps to investigate? | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
I can't comment on the level of investigation insurers go to but I | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
would hope that information is on the register, which is why we have | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
asked for a companiy. Once evaluaited I can probably answer in | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
more detail Are the insurers giving you any reasons why they are not | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
sharing that with you currently? No, our sister organisation in the DVLA | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
have access already, so it is a matter of process. Have you had an | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
indication of when you might get access? I haven't. If you are asking | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
whether there are any roadblocks to it, I don't think there are. | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
Thank you, Chair. A number of different points, if I may, | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
obviously that pick data base will be useful, but, also, the Fire And | :59:26. | :59:33. | |
Rescue Services, I understand that a number of them use a fairly basic | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
system, incident recording system which doesn't have the capacity to | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
ask any additional information. A number use their own in-house | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
systems but a number also use 3 TC software I understand which can get | :59:51. | :59:53. | |
more information on the reason for fires, whether they are arson | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
attacks, whether there is a criminality element or whether it | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
seems to be some problem with the vehicle itself. Have you had any | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
conversations with the Home Office, about Fire And Rescue Services, | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
being able to have a data base they use properly to record this | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
information that gets fed through to yourselves? To my knowledge, swrent | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
had those conversations with the Home Office. I think what this is | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
highlight something that there are a number of databases around and | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
general coordination would be a good thing, in terms of of trying to | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
identify what the true root cause is and also to provide greater | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
information to the public. I should stress my slight worry is we are not | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
getting to the true root cause here. The failure of a resister is the | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
initial cause. If you twrak back, why it failed so why did somebody | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
have to manipulate in the first place? Because the resister was | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
failing, it was failing because the blower motor wasn't blowing enough | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
air and that was you failing because it was corroded and the true cause | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
is water ingross. So you have to work out what to solve in the first | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
place. If you don't actually see the, well, depends which way you | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
look at t the start or end of the process in terms of the fire and | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
work backwards, if you have no way into that problem, then you have no | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
way into that problem? There isin is the problem. Yet there are processes | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
at least in they are I why, already in place that could be brought | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
together and data that could be gathered to ensure that no further | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
families ever have to have the appalling intags with their car and | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
claims around them. The data is either out and not being captured or | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
they are out there and is being captured and nobody is doing | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
anything with it. There is probably something with we | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
can do to coral resources to find out the initial problems with this. | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Can I may tackle another question. In terms of an owner of whether it | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
is a Zafira, Corsa or I indeed any other model of car subject to | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
recall. If the owner says, it is oar safety recall but I'm not going to | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
bother, there is actually nothing in place s that correct, to require | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
them to do that work, so even if if it is a safety-critical issue, that | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
could either cause loss of life at one end of the scale or snarl up a | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
motorway with a fire that causes the carriageway to be blocked for hours | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
on end. Unpleasant through to life ending, there is nothing actually to | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
stop somebody doing that, is there? There is no process within the MoT | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
system to say fl has been a safety recall on this model of car, have | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
you had it done, no you haven't, you can't are have your MoT? I think you | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
have put your finger on a flaw in the test accept at the moment. It is | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
something we are going to solve in the very near future. By the end of | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
the financial year we'll launch our MoT reminder service. All people who | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
will have cars, will be reminded when this is due. An attach will be | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
a reminder - please talk to your carriage about whether there are | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
outstanding safety recalls on your vehicle, that will hopefully get to | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
those people where maybe we've lost the correct in the system as it | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
where they are located, transfer of ownership, etc, then the second | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
phase in the revamp of the MoT system is a view if you haven't had | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
a safety recall completed on something that's very | :03:16. | :03:16. | |
safety-critical, then you will not be given an MoT. Presumably to | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
actually do, that apart from possible legislative changes that | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
might be required it is simple because you book in through the | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
computerised system, that would be fairly straightforward, to come with | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
and say - these are the recalls that have been associated with this type | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
of car. It would be on different databases but an automatic process | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
that wouldn't allow interinvestigation by an individual. | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
Final oi be that point, if I may, Chair, I guess there is also the | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
issue of where a resister in this case... Can by pass, whatever it may | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
be, pass the DVLA thought about a process, whereby the owner of a | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
vehicle is required to tell the MoT inspector that there has been a | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
repair done on a part of the car, so they may have got it do done, I put | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
my hands up, I don't tend to use dealer networks because they are | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
damn expensive but I like to think the mechanic I go to is a very | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
competent mechanic. So if you have either done the work yourself or | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
gone to a mechanic, should there be requirement on the MoT system to | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
Sehwag there is work done, whatever, part of the MoT system, actually it | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
there should be a requirement to have that piece inspected, even if | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
it isn't parting of the MoT certification prose.s The system we | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
have at the moment is based around the existing MoT process. There is | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
so much potential for it to be used for passing information back out to | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
customers, to keep the vehicle safe and also collect information from | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
the garage network about things they are finding on the cars, which will | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
note unusual situations or emerging recall situations. So the next phase | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
of the MoT development that's what we are trying to do, to provide more | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
information to customers and also be able to gather information on the | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
overall safety of the network. When is the time frame on that work sth | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
when can we expect to have an all-singing all--dancing system? | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
With we have come out of phase B, a couple of years, and we are about to | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
approach phase C but it is a three-year period. So 2020, we might | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
hopefully see If it is pryer advertised last, but hopefully if it | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
is pryer advertised earlier, it'll be there earlier. Thank you. | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
One briefp point following on, before I ask the question I want to | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
ask. At the moment you are the vehicle tax internet system works, | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
such if you don't have an MoT you can't get tax. Does that mean in | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
this context, if you haven't got your vehicle detail sorted out you | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
won't get your tax? There is a data base that wouldling in and it would | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
automatically process that without any intervention from the test T | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
wouldn't be up to the tester to make a decircumstances it could all be | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
automated. It links into the question I want to ask. From | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
listening to the previous panel where they seem to be suggesting | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
answers could perhaps lie with the insurers doing more, and they | :06:33. | :06:34. | |
couldn't see any circumstances where it wouldn't give the manufacturers | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
access to the vehicle, if they asked, it seems to me that there has | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
been a bit of ballparking in here. Do you work on the basis that if | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
there was more regulation involved in this, then there could be some | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
way of, if you like, forcing the insurers to make sure the vehicle is | :06:53. | :06:54. | |
made available for the manufacturers? They are forcing, if | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
you like, the vehicle owner to take action, if they are not in the | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
recall, as we have just discussed. And then, ultimately, putting the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
matter back to the manufacturers? It just seems at the moment it is a bit | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
lax? It is true to say that our code of practice at the moment lacks a | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
little bit of teeth. The vast majority of manufacturers we deal | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
with in safety recalls and we deal with about 330 a year, the vast | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
majority 69 safety recalls go under the radar and are an imagined well | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
by the manufacturers and work gets done and cars go back on the road | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
safety. There are a few outliars, some of which we are dealing with at | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
the moment but there are plenty of opportunities in there for a level | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
of regulation which encourages manufacturers to do a better job. If | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
you compare us with some of our peers in Europe n Germany, for | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
example, I think it was mentioned earlier, after three letters, the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
regulator goes in, takes the registration number off the car and | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
you cannot drive T if you look at Netherlands, for administrative | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
failures the fine is 800,000 euros, a potential one-year cessation of | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
trading, or two-years in prison, we don't have any of that. Do you think | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
there is also a role for giving the DVSA more teeth in this area as | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
well? I know Nissan cars have been on the front pages of the paper, | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
splitting in two and Toyota Prius and we've heard about Vauxhall. We | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
seem to be hearing more and it is down to manufacturers which action | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
they want table. I understand it the DVSA there is a requirement for | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
manufacturers to contact you. Should you be in a position to invoke the | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
recall on a reasonable suspension? I think we also welcome a voluntary | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
approach with manufacturers but I think there's some teeth there | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
lacking, some compulsion we may want to look at in the future in temples | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
when we don't get the response or we are not satisfied about being able | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
to take further action and expedite some road safety risk. Has your view | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
changed in light of the incidents I just mentioned? I mean, it feels as | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
if there is a bit of a space right now for somebody to be able to take | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
action, so that the ball can't continuously be passed. If you know | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
the general product safety regulation is around failures in | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
design and construction of a vehicle, we control it is corrosion | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
over peered of time and the chassis status would be picked up in the MoT | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
process. -- over a period of time. There is a question of whether the | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
models have had MoTs but that's the space for that type of an issue. | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Unless we get evidence that it is a design failure, in which case it | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
comes back into the code of practice, I think in terms of what | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
we can do nerks there are probably three levels. We have learnt a lot | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
from this -- we can do next, there are three levels. We have learned a | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
lot, so the MoT involvement is a good process, we'll proposed to kick | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
that off shortly. Second sand what regulatory powers do we have in the | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
context of the code of practice. At the moment we don't have any. That | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
needs to be improved to be able it chivy along some manufacturers that | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
are not getting to where we need to. Ultimately our goal is making sure | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
there are no unsafe vehicles on the road. The final bit of us corks is | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
whilst we are an enforcement authority in many areas, we are not | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
an enforcement agency as far as general product safety regulations | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
themselves are concerned so that final ability it take an | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
organisation to court is not there at the moment. Thank you, I will | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
stop there. -- to take. So what are the most important | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
powers you would like to have, that you don't have now? If you look at | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
the code of practice at the moment, it is a little bit siement on time | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
scales. If our focus son making sure that the safety remedy is compo | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
indicted as fast as possible so, people are not put at risk, being | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
able to ensure that manufacturers speed up the safety recall process | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
is a clear one, making sure the administration around that is as | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
robust as possible, so it doesn't create problems as we have seen on | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
this particular issue and clearly, if there is a lack of willingness to | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
solve the problem, we need it take it one step further, and as I said | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
-- to take T and our colleagues Netherlands have greater powers than | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
we do. What greater powers do they have that you would like? They can | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
compel a manufacturer to seize trading. There is a two-year prison | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
sentence for some components and for administrative fines, it is up to | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
800,000 euros. They are quite stringent. And in Germany, if | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
removal of the registration plate. If you go down an avenue of trying | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
to correct this and people don't take notice, you remove that road | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
safety risk by stopping the vehicle being licensed and registered. So | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
all those powers, are you seeking? It would make the system more robust | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
but bear nibbed the vast majority of -- but bear in mind the vast | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
majority of safety recall are dealt with. One of the issue, as well s I | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
suspect, almost everybody in this room will have come across really | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
good mechanics and some, perhaps, questionable ones. Would you like | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
any powers at all to be able to, if you are able to identify mechanics | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
who are really, perhaps, should not be touching cars to be anywhere near | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
them, perhaps having power that is would cease somebody from trading in | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
that way? We already have those powers. OK We already remove testers | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
and examiners from garages under the MoT system and we publish that | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
information. That's somebody doing the test but if you have somebody in | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
a lock of-up garage, tucked away in London, fixing cars for a few quid | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
and what they are doing is dangerous, the member of the public | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
who goes to them and hands over the money in good faith thinks they are | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
cheap and maybe won't ask why. ... Often they have things in place, | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
the gas industry is a good example. You have to be registered and have a | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
certain level of education and understanding and pass | :13:11. | :13:11. | |
qualifications to get to that level. There is clearly a road safety risk | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
in a mechanic not doing what he is doing and not repairing the vehicle | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
to a safe standard. At the moment you don't have that power. | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
Would that be useful in the future? That would give the public more | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
confidence that they know the mechanic has achieved a certain | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
level of status. How many vehicle recall saya handling at the moment? | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
333 in the last year involving 1.7 million vehicles. We get on average | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
one or two a day. It is quite a considerable workload. How many | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
involve fires? Over the last ten years I think we have had about 1.1 | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
million vehicles recalled because of fire issues more generally, engine | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
fires, electrical fires and other causes. How many of the recalls now | :14:11. | :14:21. | |
are to do with fires? I do not know the exact number. With Vauxhall | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
you're dealing with fires and five models at the moment. Five? Yes. | :14:27. | :14:42. | |
Different cars. -- models. It is unusual for one manufacturer. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Multiple recall is on the same model. Last year we had seven | :14:48. | :14:58. | |
recallrecalls. Some unusual characteristics about this | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
particular incident. Would you like to add to that? No. On both of those | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
recalls they have been recalled twice. With different corrective | :15:09. | :15:23. | |
action taken. For four, Chrysler and the third one has disappeared out of | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
my mind, forgive me. When it pops back in... Yes. I am alarmed about | :15:29. | :15:40. | |
the volume of recalls. Each individual recall will be down to a | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
specific component design but is there a wider issue about the | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
quality and design of cars that is leading to this large increase in | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
the volume of recalls? Our manufacturers cutting corners to | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
keep costs down? Is there a wider issue we should be looking at? I | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
cannot give you a definitive answer. The code of practice, there is a big | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
component around early notification and we get a large number of | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
manufacturers who tell us very early about things that are emerging and | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
that they want to get on top of quickly and salt and that is one | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
reason why the vast majority of recall iss -- recalls go under the | :16:26. | :16:36. | |
radar. I would not see it is now so thoroughly always down to worsening | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
standards. Sometimes we are getting more information early on. Land | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
Rover was the other manufacturer. I am quite shocked by some of what you | :16:50. | :16:59. | |
have just said. Thinking of the Zafira models, I understand it was | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
not the manufacturer who informed you, it was customers themselves who | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
informed you. Do you have any power... That does not seem right... | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
Do you have any power to stop manufacturers doing that? Surely | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
they should have to tell you and you should not have to find out from | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
customers? Yes. We are discussing with Vauxhall a number of reports | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
that have come to us on the 13th of January with the ECC Zafira model, a | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
couple of reports from them and a report from the public and we are | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
pressing Vauxhall for more details into the cause of those fires. We | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
press the manufacturers for that information. I rate in saying you | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
found out about this from a member of the public first? Yes. How much | :17:47. | :17:53. | |
time had passed between that report coming from a member of the public | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
to Vauxhall getting in touch with you? Have they told you why they did | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
not contacted? I think it was about four or five days after we sent them | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
the information we had a notification of four fires on | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
Zafiras in 2016. We have had conversations throughout about when | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
they knew certain aspects. We are trying to resolve those. It is about | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
what is early notification in the minds of some manufacturers compared | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
to others. 20% of the information comes from third parties and market | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
intelligence. Ideally the sooner we know them or we can solve. Do you | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
judge they did not come to your early enough? Is your interpretation | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
it was not early enough? Yes. If we find out through a third party it is | :18:49. | :18:56. | |
never early enough. I agree. We continue to press Vauxhall on this | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
and one of the issues emerging is that some of the decision-making in | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
terms of Vauxhall classifying issues as a safety defect comes from | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
Germany and Vauxhall in the UK have said that the decision that sets | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
elsewhere. Is that unusual? Think of other manufacturers around the | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
world. The structure between the UK and Europe is not necessarily in | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
itself unusual. What is of concern potentially is how quickly that | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
information comes from the manufacturer or producer and | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
distributor. It is clear in the code of practice that if you have the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
parent company you are to tell them of the early notification system in | :19:35. | :19:47. | |
the UK. Very clear. Of course. You may have heard earlier, when I | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
mentioned to the previous witnesses examples of people telling Vauxhall | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
about this, and they were effectively told it was not an issue | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
and to go away, what would you say any case like that? Do you have any | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
power to take that up with Vauxhall and impose anything on them? Every | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
occasion where that is reported we would take that up with the | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
manufacturer. Where that is proven to be the case can you do anything | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
or is there another agency that can do anything? In terms of our ability | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
to take enforcement action we have very limited powers. We can provide | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
information to Trading Standards bodies for them to take action. We | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
pass all this information on with very strict guidance to the | :20:38. | :20:39. | |
manufacturer about what they should do about it. We had a report that a | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
car had been sold at a particular garage after the recall had been | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
launched, with an invoice that said there were no outstanding recalls | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
and that was not true, so our staff visited the garage and pass the | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
information back to Vauxhall to make sure the change was made quickly. | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
What would you say in terms of the way Vauxhall have handled this month | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
from your point of view, what would be the top things you would want | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
them to take away and never do again? Probably the most important | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
is the early notification because we are not going to take regulatory | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
action if an organisation comes to us and says we think we have a | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
safety risk, we are trying to get on top of it as quickly as possible, | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
work with us. Of course. That has not happened here. It does with most | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
manufacturers. The second thing is to be open. As understanding about | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
why something has failed, changes, tell us. Every time we have a fix it | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
appears to be the final fix. If they have said we cannot fix it | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
permanently but we are going to remove some of the risk why we build | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
up a stock of parts to do the whole fix that would have been a different | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
story. There were some other examples mentioned about issues with | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
different manufacturers having different safety problems. | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
Generally, how can the DVS saying help the industry salvage itself | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
from what seems to be crisis after crisis? How can you help save the | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
industry from itself? What is your role in that more widely? Early | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
dialogue is critical, to get that confidence back. You need more | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
teeth. I am not blaming you guys. There are areas where we could put | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
some teeth into this. Important is it you get those extra powers? Why | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
might we are on the code of practice is the code of practice has not | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
changed and we have to review that but we are being more rigorous and | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
how we tackle some of the issues. Some of that has been interpreted by | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
certain parts of industry as changing the code of practice but we | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
are just being more rigorous in how we implement it. Most safety recalls | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
gets dealt with easily. Those powers will be essential to make sure it | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
does not happen again. A minute automatic or you said most | :23:23. | :23:32. | |
manufacturers are cooperative which implied that Vauxhall not just in | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
this case but generally are not. Would that be fair? There is no | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
doubt we have had to chase a lot of information we believe exists to | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
understand how big the risk is. On the Zafiras with the electronic line | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
control, we know there are a number of fires out there and have asked | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
for information about what Vauxhall's understanding as and they | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
are waiting to complete a formal investigation but there is still | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
risk out there so the earlier we have that information the better. We | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
are chasing to understand what the total risk is to work with them to | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
remove that risk. The fact to said there is still risk out their | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
answers the question I put to the previous panel that there are people | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
driving in Zafiras that are at risk. Are you wholly satisfied that the | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
company are cooperating and doing their best to ensure that those | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
vehicles are identified? The fact we are still asking questions says I am | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
not confident. What we have heard over the last year has put us in | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
that space. We are constantly pushing for cancers to our questions | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
to understand how big the remaining risk is. You said that most recalls | :24:50. | :25:01. | |
went below the radar. Nobody noticed they were happening. Is that because | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
there were a small number of vehicles affected or because, as | :25:05. | :25:14. | |
seems to be the case, I have not seen evidence, some manufacturers, | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
perhaps premium manufacturers, offering a free service and they are | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
doing the recall so that nobody, particularly the customer, finds out | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
it has been part of a safety call? Is that what you had in mind or | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
something different? What is going on? I will give you the short | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
answer. The vast majority of safety recalls take place within the | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
warranty period before a car gets to MOT. You take your car to a | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
franchised dealer and the dealer will know from its owner that it has | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
a problem and you will be going with that as part of the normal course | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
and you will not see it because it will be dealt with very quickly. In | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
the case of the Zafira the vast majority of models were outside | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
warranty and outside the period for which you do not need an MOT. The | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
situation is different. So, yes, there are sorts of different ways | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
that manufacturers are getting safety recalls done by the customer | :26:13. | :26:28. | |
may never know. Yes. The previous panel, in answer to a question I | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
posed about whether they contacted other manufacturers, they seemed to | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
tell me that they had. Is there some common issue that manufacturers tend | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
to liaise with you but do not allow other manufacturers that it might be | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
an issue? Is that something you think is acceptable? We would use a | :26:47. | :26:55. | |
system to make sure this gets out to a wider audience across Europe and | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
the bull understand what it is about. And people can take a | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
judgment about its effect. Is it enough? Making sure there is | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
confidence in the system, you would think they would find some way that | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
their senior engineers, there would be somebody to discuss these matters | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
or have an outlook for dialogue. If they're not that culture within the | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
manufacturing industry and therefore they reference you and they have | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
done their job? There seems to be a lot of concern about competitiveness | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
and sharing secrets in that wild and sometimes that gets in the way. That | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
is very difficult for us without understanding the components to | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
contact somebody when you do not know that person exists. You have to | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
go through the manufacturer and speak through whatever channel is | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
possible with whoever is making the components of that is the issue. | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
On the one hand I can see the issue about sharing intellectual property | :28:04. | :28:12. | |
but another way you can looking at it is bearing bad news. When it | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
comes to something as fundamental as safety, I am he a taken aback that | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
the industry is not nor collaborative, and it doesn't give | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
me confidence that they can sort their own issues out if they cannot | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
discuss it, by saying - we found this issue, you might want it check | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
it out. I find it worrying, and I also find it worrying that they | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
didn't do what they said six months ago. Again, they seem it make it up | :28:43. | :28:51. | |
as they go along. We expect to remove the road safety issue risk as | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
soon as possible. We don't want it to continue any longer than | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
necessary. Thank you. Do you share your concern wts D kr. - VCA is that | :29:02. | :29:11. | |
faulty or dangerous dep sign can belinged to vehicle certification? | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
Yes we have a close working relationship with DCA. We're in the | :29:16. | :29:25. | |
process of setting up an area to target the Volkswagen swachlingts we | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
know they value our information and feedback for type testing for | :29:29. | :29:30. | |
vehicles before they come on to the market. Are there any further | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
questions? No. Well, Mr MacDonald, and Mr | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
Sellerings. One brief, point, Chair, thank you. | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
We talk about the powers you guys don't have, rather than the ones you | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
do V I wonder if you can talk to us, just briefly, about resources. There | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
seemed to be some concern, previously when you were at | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
committee about the resources you have, the cash resources and what | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
you can do with that. I wonder if you could give us perhaps an update? | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
So, as you know, DVSA is a trading fund. The vast majority of our | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
income does not come from the Government. This area is funded by | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
what we all the single enforcement budge eted. Probably one of the only | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
areas that the Department for Transport actually funds in this | :30:19. | :30:20. | |
space. We are about to publish our five-year strategy. Part of that | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
strategy is to become self-financing, so we are talking to | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
the department at the moment about how we do that and, therefore, what | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
changes may need to be made to penalties, fees and charges, etc to | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
enable us to do that. Because, I come from a world where the polluter | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
pays in the environmental space. I think it is just as relevant here. | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
We are trying to work through that with the department at the moment. I | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
haven't got any over worries about financial resources at the moment. | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
The people resources are always a challenge. I'm immensely proud of | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
the people that work for DVSA. They do difficult jobs in difficult | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
circumstances. How many people would be working on the recalls? It is | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
administered by a team of seven but they sit within our enforcement arm | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
which has 1,000 people. We have taken the enforcement arm out of the | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
corps operations. Ho -- it reports to me. The organisation has changed | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
and it can get more resources if required and more opportunity to | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
expand that if necessary Seven seems a tiny amount of the recalls you | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
mentioned earlier. We're evaluating that in terms of what more resource | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
we may need to ensure we can drive compliance in the way we want to and | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
to ensure, as we look to deal with some of the issues emerging from | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
this particular issue with vauks Whitehall, that we have adequate | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
resource. -- with Vauxhall. Some MPs have more than seven MPs of staff. | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
Well I don't know who they are. Not me. Well, can I talk about the last | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
answer, I welcome the polluter pays-type approach and particularly | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
when it comes to heavy goods vehicles, for example, where the | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
wholly inadequate fining system for somebody that has poor brakes that | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
don't work on a trailer and only gets ?100 fine is appalling. So good | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
luck with that one and it'll be nice to see the draft, perhaps of your | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
document at some stage but my question actually is the types of | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
vehicles are now changing. We are looking more and more of electric | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
vehicles and I'm already hearing of recovery operators going to repair a | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
vehicle, going to load a voke and being faced with a potential 50,000 | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
volt shock from an electric vehicle. What work is being done looking at | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
that both for now and for the future in terms of the unique aspects of | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
risk around electric vehicles and how that is likely to shape up in | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
the future? Well we have a variety of people across the Department for | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
Transport and with colleagues, people like in the VCA to try to | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
understand this. Every vehicle that comes on to the road, three years | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
later has to be MoT tested, so we have to be ahead of that. We are | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
zoontly looking ahead. We have only been looking last week at autonomous | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
vehicles. Things are going to change at some point remove the driver, so | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
how does that work and how will that interact in our whole world? We are | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
constantly reviewing that and looking at that. We have to plan | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
ahead because we have a network of testing station that is will have to | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
test the vehicles at some point so they'll need to integrate that into | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
the test. So early work and progress? | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
Perhaps a topic for another inquiry. Thank you very much. Order, order. | :33:40. | :33:52. | |
I six Prime Ministers, six very different styles of leadership but | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
what did those leadership styles say about how they ran their party or | :34:00. | :34:08. | |
their Governments? Join me, for Six Unscripted, straight to camera talks | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
on how these very different leaders interpreted their role as Prime | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
Minister. That's Leadership Reflections, this Sunday to Friday, | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
8.00pm on BBC Parliament. | :34:19. | :34:24. |