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Thank you so much for being with us
today and if everyone can take their | 0:00:14 | 0:00:20 | |
seats. Sorry we are starting late.
And can I say good morning to you | 0:00:20 | 0:00:25 | |
and also anybody who is working on
is back and watching online or the | 0:00:25 | 0:00:29 | |
public gallery. This is the third
and last all evidence session into | 0:00:29 | 0:00:34 | |
our enquiry into the Government's
raised its piracy audit which has | 0:00:34 | 0:00:40 | |
provided evidence of disparity
between differences in ethic groups | 0:00:40 | 0:00:47 | |
in public and services. We have two
witnesses today and after we have | 0:00:47 | 0:00:52 | |
had this session will be hearing
from David Lidington in the Cabinet | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
Office. Our panel here today gives
us more the opportunity to look at | 0:00:55 | 0:01:01 | |
the office for National statistics
and equality and human rights | 0:01:01 | 0:01:06 | |
commission's work in this area and
issues that should be addressed. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:12 | |
Before I start, so could I ask you
to say your name and the | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
organisation you represent. I am Ian
Bell at the National statistics | 0:01:15 | 0:01:28 | |
office. Thank you all for being here
today and we will start are | 0:01:28 | 0:01:34 | |
questioning today. My question is to
Melanie. The E HRC submission to our | 0:01:34 | 0:01:46 | |
enquiry seems to think that the work
your enquiry is doing is better at | 0:01:46 | 0:01:53 | |
uncovering inequalities in the race
disparity order. In your opinion, do | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
you think the audit has been a waste
of time? No, I don't. Certainly we | 0:01:56 | 0:02:06 | |
do to our own work, we have a
statutory duty to report to | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
Parliament on progress towards
equality and human rights in Britain | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
and we do that through our fear of
report. That's a very structured | 0:02:12 | 0:02:20 | |
approach for which we use the
measurement framework, which that at | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
all areas of life and uses a variety
of qualitative and quantitative data | 0:02:23 | 0:02:28 | |
sources. The raised its piracy audit
is a different exercise and I think | 0:02:28 | 0:02:36 | |
it fulfils a different purpose. --
race disparity audit. It does things | 0:02:36 | 0:02:43 | |
are approach isn't able to do, in
terms of the amount of original | 0:02:43 | 0:02:49 | |
analysis. But on the other hand, it
has gaps where we actually do | 0:02:49 | 0:02:55 | |
publish data. They fulfil a
different purpose. I think it has | 0:02:55 | 0:03:00 | |
also been extremely beneficial that
the Government has shown such an | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
interest in this issue and it
certainly raised the profile of race | 0:03:04 | 0:03:12 | |
disparity in society. So we welcome
that. OK, but the EHRC did see the | 0:03:12 | 0:03:24 | |
data lacks robustness, completeness
and comparability. Is there | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
something that can be remedied? Do
you have some suggestions about | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
making the audit and offensive? Yes,
I think things can always be | 0:03:31 | 0:03:39 | |
improved and that's probably equally
true for our own work and we always | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
look to improve. We talk to the race
disparity unit on an ongoing basis | 0:03:43 | 0:03:49 | |
about where we think additional data
would be useful and I know that they | 0:03:49 | 0:03:54 | |
are planning to add more data to the
website. We will be helping to guide | 0:03:54 | 0:04:01 | |
them in that. For example, on higher
education, we think that there is | 0:04:01 | 0:04:09 | |
more data that is available and
could be used. The main issue for us | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
is around setting the data in
context. So we think it would make | 0:04:14 | 0:04:21 | |
the data more useful if there was
more contextual information which | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
enables people to understand what it
means and that it drew links between | 0:04:25 | 0:04:33 | |
different data sets. For example,
looking at the relationship between | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
attainment in access to higher
education and linking that to | 0:04:36 | 0:04:42 | |
employment. But are the lessons that
we should be learning from the | 0:04:42 | 0:04:48 | |
altered in terms of how Government
actually collects data and how we | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
can make it more relevant, robust
and useful? I think certainly and | 0:04:52 | 0:05:02 | |
I'm sure ONS will have views on that
as well. There are differences in | 0:05:02 | 0:05:08 | |
the way organisations disaggregate
ethnicity data which wakes it | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
difficult to make comparisons,
things are changing the way people | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
do things over time, making it
difficult to track progress. I think | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
there are lessons to learn in terms
of completeness and consistency | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
about how we look at these issues.
I'm just going to pressure a bit | 0:05:23 | 0:05:29 | |
further on the usefulness of the
data. You've expend about having | 0:05:29 | 0:05:34 | |
contacts, which makes sense. There's
any other way the data could have | 0:05:34 | 0:05:38 | |
been presented which could have the
data more useful to us? Well, the | 0:05:38 | 0:05:45 | |
Government took a view that it was
going to publish the raw data, in | 0:05:45 | 0:05:51 | |
effect, without putting any kind of
analysis or context around it and I | 0:05:51 | 0:05:56 | |
can see that there are risks with
doing that for Government because it | 0:05:56 | 0:06:02 | |
may be seen at being political spin,
the way that the information is | 0:06:02 | 0:06:06 | |
presented if it isn't just resented
in its raw form. But for people to | 0:06:06 | 0:06:13 | |
use the data, they needed that
analysis and context and therefore, | 0:06:13 | 0:06:19 | |
we try to provide that with or
report. Our reporters on a different | 0:06:19 | 0:06:24 | |
basis but I think there is room for
the Government to supplement what is | 0:06:24 | 0:06:29 | |
the with a something that would make
it easier for people to actually | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
use. Ian, I don't know if you wanted
to comment on this point. The point | 0:06:31 | 0:06:41 | |
around the usefulness and
comparability? The way the system | 0:06:41 | 0:06:48 | |
hopefully works is that we publish
in ONS what is called harmonisation | 0:06:48 | 0:06:54 | |
guidance. Departments, whether the
our collecting administrative data | 0:06:54 | 0:06:59 | |
for how they run benefit systems or
education systems and also the | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
surveys the conduct, are then
advised to harmonise against those | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
classifications. What became
apparent through the race disparity | 0:07:08 | 0:07:13 | |
audit is something which I think was
no one but shone a light in this | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
area. It is that many organisations
have yet to align the latest ONS | 0:07:17 | 0:07:24 | |
classifications for the 2011 census
and of course we are now coming up | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
of the 2021 census. In part of the
preparation for that, we are working | 0:07:28 | 0:07:35 | |
through body ethnicity
classification should look like. We | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
know there's a real job to do to
work with organisations across | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
Government in order to get that
consistency of approach right of the | 0:07:42 | 0:07:46 | |
way across the data collectors and
make sure that the harmonisation is | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
there. Some NHS bodies are
collecting 2001 definitions still, I | 0:07:49 | 0:07:55 | |
know the Department for Education,
my old apartment, was on a hybrid | 0:07:55 | 0:08:01 | |
between 2001 and 2011. If we can get
everyone up to the same level and | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
work with them towards the 2021
census, it will undertake and take | 0:08:05 | 0:08:12 | |
that increase incompatibility
across-the-board. It is a task I | 0:08:12 | 0:08:17 | |
have to take on as part of the next
stage of the census development. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
Scanner has a supplementary, they
worried about the robustness and | 0:08:25 | 0:08:32 | |
consistency of the data. Whether
particular areas where the | 0:08:32 | 0:08:40 | |
organisation was concerned about
that robustness of the data? That is | 0:08:40 | 0:08:46 | |
worrying. I can understand
completeness and comparability. But | 0:08:46 | 0:08:50 | |
if you are saying some of the data
wasn't robust, that would be useful | 0:08:50 | 0:08:55 | |
to have a particular example. I
think I will have to write to you | 0:08:55 | 0:09:03 | |
about that. Will you put in
something about how you would have | 0:09:03 | 0:09:10 | |
done it differently? We are trying
to get at if something like an audit | 0:09:10 | 0:09:17 | |
like this is done, the robustness
mixers question whether the | 0:09:17 | 0:09:27 | |
integrity of the -- makes as
question whether the integrity of | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
the data is correct. We think it is
really important there is a central | 0:09:30 | 0:09:42 | |
point that guy is a strategic
approach across Government to | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
address the essays that occur across
all areas of life and equality. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:58 | |
Following the recent cabinet
reshuffle, responsibility for the | 0:09:58 | 0:10:00 | |
race disparity units now sits with
the Cabinet office with its | 0:10:00 | 0:10:07 | |
coordination role. Recently, it was
a split responsibility. I think that | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
is really welcome. I hope it is a
strong push from the centre to take | 0:10:11 | 0:10:18 | |
coordinated action across all these
issues. In fact, we would like to | 0:10:18 | 0:10:22 | |
see that happen all the quality
protector characteristics which have | 0:10:22 | 0:10:30 | |
different responsibilities across
Government. And do not think it | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
matters which department it sits in,
it is that it sits in a place which | 0:10:32 | 0:10:37 | |
has an overview and is able to
influence action across Government. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:42 | |
What do you think about the action
that has been taken so far by the | 0:10:42 | 0:10:47 | |
Government, devolving to the
relevant departments? I think there | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
is a kind of push and pull thing
going on here. I think that is | 0:10:51 | 0:10:57 | |
probably right. You need that kind
of point of view to say, what are | 0:10:57 | 0:11:02 | |
the priority issues we need to focus
on getting traction on? And | 0:11:02 | 0:11:11 | |
departments responsible for
particular issues, the best place to | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
come up with policy responses that
we have not yet seen, really, what's | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
those policy responses are going to
be. What is the role of the | 0:11:18 | 0:11:24 | |
Commission in all of this? I think
the role of the Commission is to | 0:11:24 | 0:11:28 | |
form our own views about what we
think the priorities are based on | 0:11:28 | 0:11:34 | |
our analysis and understanding of
the data. And then to encourage and | 0:11:34 | 0:11:44 | |
press Government to turn the
information into reaction. Thank | 0:11:44 | 0:11:46 | |
you. The UK has been collecting
ethnicity data to identify | 0:11:46 | 0:11:57 | |
inequalities for a good many years.
While there have been some successes | 0:11:57 | 0:12:02 | |
in reducing inequalities in a few
areas, some issues remain stubbornly | 0:12:02 | 0:12:11 | |
entrenched. Is it reasonable for us
and the HRC to assume this will make | 0:12:11 | 0:12:22 | |
a significant inroads in tackling
the men -- more entrenched problems? | 0:12:22 | 0:12:29 | |
To answer that you need to think
about what conditions you actually | 0:12:29 | 0:12:33 | |
need to make progress on an issue. I
think that's transparency and | 0:12:33 | 0:12:41 | |
leadership and commitment are part
of that. They are kind of the | 0:12:41 | 0:12:47 | |
beginning of that journey. What then
needs to happen is for people to | 0:12:47 | 0:12:53 | |
take ownership of the issues and
actually act on them. I think | 0:12:53 | 0:12:59 | |
obviously we have known about a lot
of these issues for a very long | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
time. They persist and progress has
not been as rapid as we would have | 0:13:02 | 0:13:10 | |
liked to see. Is this knowing it
every two bit more is going to | 0:13:10 | 0:13:16 | |
change anything? I think there is a
risk. Action should be based on | 0:13:16 | 0:13:22 | |
evidence. There is a risk the search
for more and better evidence can | 0:13:22 | 0:13:28 | |
delay action. I do not think, if we
know that certain ethnic groups are | 0:13:28 | 0:13:38 | |
underachieving at school, it is
useful to know all the factors that | 0:13:38 | 0:13:46 | |
contribute to that. It doesn't stop
the actually trying to do something | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
in the classroom. -- you trying to
do something in the classroom. You | 0:13:49 | 0:13:54 | |
said the HRC will form their own
response to the audit. What form | 0:13:54 | 0:14:00 | |
will that take when will we see it?
Republished our road map to race | 0:14:00 | 0:14:07 | |
equality very shortly after the
audit was published. Which | 0:14:07 | 0:14:12 | |
identified a number of areas we that
urgent action was needed and we | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
worked with some race equality
organisations to produce that | 0:14:16 | 0:14:21 | |
report. Is there anything else you
are planning to do as a result of | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
that? We are continuing to keep an
eye on what is happening in touch | 0:14:25 | 0:14:30 | |
with race disparity unit and we are
continuing to ask them how the | 0:14:30 | 0:14:36 | |
policy responses are progressing.
Another thing we are doing at the | 0:14:36 | 0:14:46 | |
moment is some research into the
public sector the quality duty. -- | 0:14:46 | 0:14:54 | |
equality duty. That followed on from
the earlier race equality duty. The | 0:14:54 | 0:15:02 | |
policy idea behind it was it should
harness the power of the public | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
sector in addressing persistent
equality issues. I think it is clear | 0:15:06 | 0:15:14 | |
from the figures that hasn't been
entirely successful. We are looking | 0:15:14 | 0:15:19 | |
at how the duty has been working and
considering whether we can make some | 0:15:19 | 0:15:25 | |
recommendations about how it can be
improved to make it be more | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
effective. Did any of the data from
the audit surprise you in terms of | 0:15:28 | 0:15:40 | |
inequalities, or was it called grand
you had expected and seen before? -- | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
and ground you had expected and seen
before? I do not think there was | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
anything that came as a massive
surprise. -- old ground. Your new | 0:15:49 | 0:15:58 | |
audit is going to be looking at the
advantages and limitations of ONS | 0:15:58 | 0:16:11 | |
data on... Is the fatal flaws? The
work programme is broader than | 0:16:11 | 0:16:20 | |
ethnicity. We are looking across the
protector characteristics and the | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
aim of the audit is to look at the
data not just on ethnicity but | 0:16:23 | 0:16:30 | |
across all the other
characteristics, disability, gender | 0:16:30 | 0:16:38 | |
identity, sexual orientation. The
inequalities data audit that we | 0:16:38 | 0:16:49 | |
studied with Government bodies that
invited them to look through the | 0:16:49 | 0:16:53 | |
baseline data we had available to us
and add to it has now concluded. We | 0:16:53 | 0:17:00 | |
had 46 responses, which I think we
feel is particularly reassuring | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
because it means for the majority of
our Government stakeholders, we | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
already had a side of the data they
had. And it was being used either by | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
us or through the race disparity
audit. 46 had something additionally | 0:17:12 | 0:17:19 | |
to offer to us. We will look through
the quality and added value that | 0:17:19 | 0:17:25 | |
that they take and give us. How
satisfied are you that the data | 0:17:25 | 0:17:32 | |
standards in the Government's audit
are high enough? On race disparity? | 0:17:32 | 0:17:41 | |
I think it is worth pointing out
that much of the data in the audit | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
is already published in individual
departments and published often with | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
the badges of national or official
statistics designed to provide | 0:17:50 | 0:17:57 | |
reassurance that these are done in
line with the UK Statistics | 0:17:57 | 0:18:02 | |
Authority code of practice and are
of high quality. The audit has tied | 0:18:02 | 0:18:08 | |
together, provided overview across
the board. For many users interested | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
at incoming -- coming at this from
race disparity angles, it makes it | 0:18:11 | 0:18:22 | |
more easily acceptable... We
seconded out some staff to work in | 0:18:22 | 0:18:27 | |
the audit and worked with them to
make sure the quality and accuracy | 0:18:27 | 0:18:33 | |
was there within the audit on that
side. We have covered this briefly | 0:18:33 | 0:18:40 | |
but can I just ask, based on what
the audit revealed about how the | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
public sector collects ethnicity
data, could there be improvements to | 0:18:44 | 0:18:50 | |
how the public sector collects that
data? Yes, they're in and out of the | 0:18:50 | 0:18:55 | |
-ish room for us to get more
consistency -- undoubtably room for | 0:18:55 | 0:19:01 | |
more consistency across the board.
If it ain't the interpretation and | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
allows it to be easier to follow
through some of the disparities we | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
have talked about already, if the
education system is not on the same | 0:19:09 | 0:19:16 | |
definition as the labour market
data, it becomes harder for users to | 0:19:16 | 0:19:22 | |
quickly come to conclusions. So the
improvements you would recommend | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
there are consistency, comparability
and similar definitions? Alignment | 0:19:25 | 0:19:32 | |
with the harmonised standards which
the public, yes. Can I go back to | 0:19:32 | 0:19:39 | |
the specifics of administrative
data? Which we are not | 0:19:39 | 0:19:45 | |
statisticians, that we understand
there are real concerns about the | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
way that data is gathered and then
used, and that the limitations of | 0:19:49 | 0:19:57 | |
that data have to be carefully
considered. I am thinking | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
particularly about Gypsy Roma
Traveller communities who can deal | 0:20:01 | 0:20:07 | |
-- Roman that's their position in
the system is compounded. Would you | 0:20:07 | 0:20:16 | |
agree? We have different sources,
sensors, service, administrative | 0:20:16 | 0:20:25 | |
data, all of which have different
strengths and limitations. The issue | 0:20:25 | 0:20:37 | |
you highlight, for each of these, it
relies from census the surveys and | 0:20:37 | 0:20:49 | |
administrative data, there are
different reasons for interacting | 0:20:49 | 0:20:50 | |
with that. Every ten years, the
census, there must be trust in the | 0:20:50 | 0:20:59 | |
system that the data is used in
partially and independently and we | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
would like to think we enable that.
Surveys are usually run for | 0:21:02 | 0:21:11 | |
households on a voluntary basis. For
those communities there are two | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
issues which we recap. One is how do
we make sure that within it the | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
survey House roads are even getting
to the population. -- households. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:27 | |
Second, there are issues around with
a naturally respond to these data | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
and that collection? And
administrative data, when the Gypsy | 0:21:30 | 0:21:43 | |
Traveller community, data will be
collected as a by-product. It is | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
recorded on what the person wants to
express their identity as being and | 0:21:47 | 0:21:55 | |
relies on the person saying they
want their identity recorded in the | 0:21:55 | 0:22:00 | |
assessment group. All rely on the
trust around how data is collected | 0:22:00 | 0:22:05 | |
and the bodies who are doing it. I
think it is particularly for the | 0:22:05 | 0:22:10 | |
group you highlight it, I think it
would be difficult to conclude that | 0:22:10 | 0:22:15 | |
anyone system is better than any
other. I think each other strengths | 0:22:15 | 0:22:21 | |
and limitations. In using the
different types of sources of data, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
it is important we make it clear
where the strengths and limitations | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
are so people know and understand
the issues which can be done. I do | 0:22:29 | 0:22:34 | |
not think it is fair to say
particularly that administrative | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
data is particularly poor, but
compared to others, yes. Given we | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
are doing with groups were trust may
not be strong, what are you doing to | 0:22:42 | 0:22:50 | |
ensure that new methodologies are
adopted to overcome that. Otherwise, | 0:22:50 | 0:22:58 | |
we are living with a fatal flaw in
the data? As I mentioned earlier, we | 0:22:58 | 0:23:03 | |
are preparing for the 2021 census.
One of the core aspects is community | 0:23:03 | 0:23:12 | |
engagement we will be undertaking,
we are already in large-scale | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
stakeholder engagement on what are
the needs for a user ethnicity data | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
and what is the suitability for
inclusion in the census. Our | 0:23:21 | 0:23:27 | |
ambition in ONS, too often we have
set up community engagement which | 0:23:27 | 0:23:34 | |
sets up groups to have trust and
fill it in for the census, but then | 0:23:34 | 0:23:40 | |
the infrastructure tends to fade
into the background after the census | 0:23:40 | 0:23:46 | |
has happened. We need to design it
so that we do not set up a community | 0:23:46 | 0:23:53 | |
engagement programme for giving
statistical information that | 0:23:53 | 0:23:54 | |
disappears again on an ongoing
basis. We need to build the trust, | 0:23:54 | 0:24:00 | |
provide the information which allows
accurate data to be done. We're | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
building to that the moment and are
determined to sustain. It feels you | 0:24:03 | 0:24:10 | |
might have a census to me that he
might have a mini- census. -- you | 0:24:10 | 0:24:17 | |
might | 0:24:17 | 0:24:17 | |
We have a programme of research at
the moment called the administrative | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
data census and that is looking at
the information which is held across | 0:24:26 | 0:24:32 | |
Government at the moment and, could
we use that to provide updates on | 0:24:32 | 0:24:39 | |
the population on an ongoing basis
in between census years? Yes, your | 0:24:39 | 0:24:44 | |
assertion is we could be looking at
not many censuses in that sense but | 0:24:44 | 0:24:52 | |
even many senses of the population
using data which exists already. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:58 | |
Just moving back to the race
disparity audit, but it was | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
important to know what datasets
might be available. Much of the | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
evidence we've received his calls
for far more granularity in the data | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
that is included in the audit. And
the ability to control for variables | 0:25:10 | 0:25:17 | |
so that it can be determined whether
race in the factor in causing a | 0:25:17 | 0:25:22 | |
particular disparity. Do you think
the audit provides enough detail for | 0:25:22 | 0:25:28 | |
this sort of robust analysis of the
causes of disparities? The audit | 0:25:28 | 0:25:36 | |
certainly, there are some examples
within it where it gave more | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
information than just the ethnicity
breakdown. The one example which | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
immediately springs to mind is the
education where it also provided | 0:25:44 | 0:25:49 | |
education on free school meals as an
education of income levels to try | 0:25:49 | 0:25:53 | |
and get into deprivation. I think
where it summed it up was available | 0:25:53 | 0:26:01 | |
provided the information, but
fundamentally, I am turning to the | 0:26:01 | 0:26:07 | |
work of Emma's team. The importance
of the work is really the ability to | 0:26:07 | 0:26:12 | |
look at all the characteristics and
are not just race on this side. I | 0:26:12 | 0:26:18 | |
think it's our view that we need to
do a bigger job building on the work | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
we've just added with the audit we
mentioned earlier into much more of | 0:26:22 | 0:26:29 | |
round all the inequalities. Just to
emphasise that we see the race | 0:26:29 | 0:26:36 | |
disparity audit as it currently
stands as the beginning. It is | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
providing common evidence base from
which we can build a variety of | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
different conversations. Whilst it
doesn't necessarily all, is a | 0:26:45 | 0:26:50 | |
surprise to some of us who are
familiar with the contents, there | 0:26:50 | 0:26:55 | |
are a number of third parties that
want to have had access to the | 0:26:55 | 0:26:59 | |
breadth of the content of the
current audit. It begins the right | 0:26:59 | 0:27:07 | |
sort of conversation and were ONS
can add value is starting to | 0:27:07 | 0:27:13 | |
introduce other variables, other
factors and start to broaden out the | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
intersection hours we were the data
that is available to us. But our | 0:27:17 | 0:27:22 | |
statistical professionals, are you
not worried when, as we've had | 0:27:22 | 0:27:27 | |
evidence given to us which shows how
much this data could be | 0:27:27 | 0:27:31 | |
misinterpreted? I'm sure not
wilfully, but just by default. For | 0:27:31 | 0:27:37 | |
instance, the audit shows that black
women are almost twice as likely to | 0:27:37 | 0:27:41 | |
have a common mental health problem
as white women. But you could also | 0:27:41 | 0:27:47 | |
be looking in that same dataset that
information like housing tenure and | 0:27:47 | 0:27:54 | |
other elements which could provide
much more information than that | 0:27:54 | 0:28:00 | |
simple fact around mental health to
try and explain why that problem is | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
happening. Clearly not necessarily
driven, may not be driven by NHS | 0:28:04 | 0:28:11 | |
issues or access to NHS issues, but
maybe a disproportionate pub at | 0:28:11 | 0:28:16 | |
ability that they are living in
certain sort of housing or any other | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
number of things. Yet that Laura low
data isn't available. I think the | 0:28:20 | 0:28:27 | |
audit was very clear, and the
caveats were there quite clearly | 0:28:27 | 0:28:33 | |
about how to use the data. But this
is always going to be a tension | 0:28:33 | 0:28:39 | |
within a statistical system, whereby
if you wait for fully understanding | 0:28:39 | 0:28:45 | |
and knowing all the causes of the
system, then the data may not have | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
seen the light of day for quite a
long time. And actually, that then | 0:28:49 | 0:28:55 | |
means that all the onus is on the
people who have the data in order to | 0:28:55 | 0:28:59 | |
fully analyse and do all the
causalities. And actually, what the | 0:28:59 | 0:29:05 | |
audit can usefully do is by putting
the data together in one place and | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
making it available, it can begin to
get better question is asked to | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
allow the evidence and analysis and
further research to get into | 0:29:14 | 0:29:18 | |
explaining the disparities. I view
it as being a starting point for | 0:29:18 | 0:29:25 | |
further research and analysis which
enables us to achieve more by having | 0:29:25 | 0:29:29 | |
out there and available to a wider
group of researchers than if it was | 0:29:29 | 0:29:34 | |
simply waited for until all of that
analysis was completed by the data | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
holders. You talk about this tension
and I think you're absolutely right. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:44 | |
There is a concern again, different
amendment were coming from a | 0:29:44 | 0:29:50 | |
different set of witnesses, that if
you continue to segregate the data | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
you could always show that there are
other factors at work that could | 0:29:53 | 0:29:58 | |
conceal with disparities. What I
advise would you give to the | 0:29:58 | 0:30:04 | |
departments who are currently
analysing this data so that they get | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
that tension right? The Government,
the departments across Government, | 0:30:07 | 0:30:17 | |
are part of the Government
statistical service, and they are | 0:30:17 | 0:30:20 | |
very used to this tension on a
day-to-day basis and manage it for | 0:30:20 | 0:30:25 | |
the datasets the release. They are
constantly weighing it up, not just | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
with the attention they have the but
also the risk of disclosure as we | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
get to smaller and smaller numbers
as well. And so they will be | 0:30:33 | 0:30:38 | |
factoring this in them. The best
advice we would be giving us that we | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
are here to help and advise in terms
of we have a lot of experience and | 0:30:41 | 0:30:48 | |
disclosure control as ONS and we are
here to help and advice, but | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
fundamentally it is about making
sure that there is and Melanie put | 0:30:51 | 0:30:56 | |
this very well, transparency is a
necessary condition for open data in | 0:30:56 | 0:31:03 | |
the transparency of the data
alongside the all analysis and | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
evidence they do have and the
appropriate caveats in order to make | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
sure that it is fully understood
what you can't and can't conclude it | 0:31:09 | 0:31:14 | |
is usually the best way to manage
your way through that tension. But | 0:31:14 | 0:31:19 | |
the transparency of the data is
essential. That's really helpful, | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
brilliant. Any other questions?
Thank you so much for your time this | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
morning, really helpful in the
formulation of our report. Thank you | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
for your time and I know it takes a
lot of energy to come here and | 0:31:31 | 0:31:35 | |
prepare for it so we are immensely
grateful. We are now going to move | 0:31:35 | 0:31:39 | |
on to our next session. So if I
could ask eyewitnesses to leave and | 0:31:39 | 0:31:45 | |
any members of the audience who
wants to leave, please do. We are | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
moving on to our next session and
rigidly, seamlessly. If I could ask | 0:31:50 | 0:31:57 | |
eyewitnesses to take their seats and
also members of the audience who are | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
joining us, I'd be grateful, and I'd
like to welcome our minister, David | 0:32:01 | 0:32:06 | |
Lidington, and also mark Bell, who
is here from the Cabinet Office. And | 0:32:06 | 0:32:13 | |
two people who have joined us in the
audience as well. Minister, your | 0:32:13 | 0:32:18 | |
predecessor was keen to engage with
the committee about the next steps | 0:32:18 | 0:32:21 | |
the Government should take now that
the first stage of the race | 0:32:21 | 0:32:25 | |
disparity audit has been complacent.
We are grateful for that and we look | 0:32:25 | 0:32:28 | |
forward to assessing the evidence we
have heard and putting our | 0:32:28 | 0:32:35 | |
conclusions and recommendations into
the usual report. However, we do | 0:32:35 | 0:32:39 | |
want to learn today more about the
Government's on thinking, what | 0:32:39 | 0:32:45 | |
you've learnt about the audit and
what steps you plan to take to build | 0:32:45 | 0:32:49 | |
on that and to respond importantly
to its findings. I don't think I | 0:32:49 | 0:32:55 | |
need to ask you to introduce
yourselves, I think I've already | 0:32:55 | 0:32:59 | |
done that, but I will move in
rigidly on to our first set of | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
questions, which are going to be
asked by Jess. Your predecessor so | 0:33:03 | 0:33:15 | |
describes it as explain or change.
Does this mean that if the disparity | 0:33:15 | 0:33:20 | |
can be explained that the Government
doesn't think it needs to be | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
changed? It depends what the
explanation is. For example, one of | 0:33:22 | 0:33:29 | |
the lines of constructive criticism
that has been of some of the | 0:33:29 | 0:33:33 | |
statistics that we have presented in
the audit is that they've not been | 0:33:33 | 0:33:38 | |
adjusted for age or for other
characteristics, plus income level | 0:33:38 | 0:33:46 | |
that might provide a better, more
subtle explanation of the phenomenon | 0:33:46 | 0:33:54 | |
that we are seeing. So I would say
that the audit is unprecedented in | 0:33:54 | 0:34:04 | |
just the sheer scope and scale of
what is being presented and it is | 0:34:04 | 0:34:11 | |
backed up by a determination from
the Prime Minister personally Darren | 0:34:11 | 0:34:20 | |
to address racial disparities.
Obviously one looks at the evidence | 0:34:20 | 0:34:24 | |
and, for example, at the evidence
presented in the audit of | 0:34:24 | 0:34:28 | |
educational attainment at school.
Actually, you see different average | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
levels of attainment by boys and
girls within each ethnicity and you | 0:34:33 | 0:34:42 | |
see some quite stark differences
between the relative performance | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
levels on an average of different
ethnic minorities. So one needs to | 0:34:45 | 0:34:50 | |
think, what is it that lies behind
those inequalities? And then devise | 0:34:50 | 0:34:56 | |
a policy response that addresses
that. In that case, even if you | 0:34:56 | 0:35:01 | |
could explain it, you would still
stick to change it. The audit is the | 0:35:01 | 0:35:07 | |
starting point. You then say, if
there is this inequality in outcome, | 0:35:07 | 0:35:12 | |
is there some reason for it? That
may throw up a reason that goes | 0:35:12 | 0:35:19 | |
beyond a simple, say people are
judging those from one or another | 0:35:19 | 0:35:30 | |
minority group and further, there
may be other contributions, but then | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
you want to ensure that there is
genuine equality of opportunity in | 0:35:33 | 0:35:38 | |
things like education and you want
to ensure that all public services | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
are operating anyway that is fair to
all citizens of this country. It | 0:35:41 | 0:35:48 | |
seems to me that you want to change
it regardless, which is not a bad | 0:35:48 | 0:35:52 | |
thing. It sounds like change or
change. I think a challenge, I would | 0:35:52 | 0:36:00 | |
say, is the keyword there. So, how
is the Government going about | 0:36:00 | 0:36:08 | |
explaining the disparities in the
audit? We are now in the process of | 0:36:08 | 0:36:14 | |
getting the Whitehall machinery into
action about this. There have been a | 0:36:14 | 0:36:24 | |
number of early priorities, one
which, given my previous job, I knew | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
something about, the Government's
response to the report on the | 0:36:28 | 0:36:33 | |
experience of black and ethnic
minority people in the criminal | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
justice system. When Justice
Secretary, I announced the | 0:36:36 | 0:36:42 | |
Government's response to that at the
end of the last year, setting | 0:36:42 | 0:36:46 | |
demanding targets for the prison
service in terms of recruitment and | 0:36:46 | 0:36:49 | |
development into leadership
positions in the prison service. We | 0:36:49 | 0:36:55 | |
are also... You're prioritising
certain areas. Yes, and one of the | 0:36:55 | 0:37:02 | |
things I intend to do, having
inherited this position, is use the | 0:37:02 | 0:37:09 | |
grip on racial disparity which is
supported by the unit in the Cabinet | 0:37:09 | 0:37:15 | |
Office that Marcus herds to ensure
that each secretary of state, each | 0:37:15 | 0:37:23 | |
department are addressing those
things that fall within the areas of | 0:37:23 | 0:37:29 | |
responsibility. They will need to be
a system prioritisation here, | 0:37:29 | 0:37:36 | |
otherwise we will find effort and
resources spread too thinly to have | 0:37:36 | 0:37:40 | |
a proper understanding. What if any
deadline have each Government | 0:37:40 | 0:37:46 | |
department been given for explaining
the areas of disparity? We are not | 0:37:46 | 0:37:53 | |
at that stage yet. What I want to do
is make sure that when we are 12 | 0:37:53 | 0:37:59 | |
months on from the initial
publication of the orders we are | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
able to say that there has been some
demonstrable progress made across | 0:38:02 | 0:38:07 | |
Government. The earliest priorities
have been the response to the | 0:38:07 | 0:38:12 | |
criminal Justice report, some work
that we are undertaking and | 0:38:12 | 0:38:21 | |
employment where we are targeting
efforts in about 20 areas of the | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
country which have both a high rates
of unemployment, high BAME | 0:38:26 | 0:38:42 | |
unemployment and white citizens gap
in unemployment and guess at what | 0:38:42 | 0:38:44 | |
lies behind those differences in
outcome and then we will be | 0:38:44 | 0:38:49 | |
announcing fairly certain and
externally led review of school | 0:38:49 | 0:38:56 | |
exclusions. Because again, you look
at the stats that are in the audit | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
and you see that there are more
black is being excluded from school | 0:38:59 | 0:39:07 | |
both temporarily and then
permanently and need to understand | 0:39:07 | 0:39:09 | |
what it says that is driving that
and what can be done about it. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:13 | |
You have to have 30s because the
Cabinet office is only as big as it | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
is. -- priorities. It will be
helpful to explain the findings of | 0:39:21 | 0:39:28 | |
the audit... It will the | 0:39:28 | 0:39:34 | |
it will be the Secretary of State,
Cabinet officers, the Prime Minister | 0:39:37 | 0:39:42 | |
has made it clear she regards it as
a key aspect of the social policy | 0:39:42 | 0:39:47 | |
programme. But it will have to be
done within the Budget allocated. | 0:39:47 | 0:39:53 | |
The Secretary of State makes its for
spending... What will happen if | 0:39:53 | 0:40:04 | |
nothing is done? There will be
meetings of the ministerial group. | 0:40:04 | 0:40:12 | |
The unit, markets may want to add to
this, is talking to colleagues | 0:40:12 | 0:40:19 | |
around Whitehall the whole time
about what they are doing. One of | 0:40:19 | 0:40:25 | |
the things I have since being
appointed is where things now stand. | 0:40:25 | 0:40:31 | |
I have asked. And making sure they
have a follow-up... All the data on | 0:40:31 | 0:40:46 | |
the website comes from departments,
it is not our data they sensed a us. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:53 | |
They have analysts more than capable
of conducting a thorough regression | 0:40:53 | 0:41:00 | |
analysis. They are doing that. They
have been asked by us to do a | 0:41:00 | 0:41:06 | |
regression analysis on all the
measures on site and we are | 0:41:06 | 0:41:09 | |
coordinating how they are doing
that. Trying to explain, you have | 0:41:09 | 0:41:16 | |
analysts in every department that is
relevant. And so it is specifically | 0:41:16 | 0:41:24 | |
on data analysis? That aspect is. We
are actively involved it on the | 0:41:24 | 0:41:33 | |
policy side. You will be seeking
from fieldwork, talking to people? | 0:41:33 | 0:41:42 | |
That is for departments to decide
how they do that. We have asked them | 0:41:42 | 0:41:49 | |
to do a proper regression analysis
on data on the site. Before I bring | 0:41:49 | 0:41:56 | |
in Eddie, can I ask for more
detailed? From what has said, | 0:41:56 | 0:42:01 | |
education and the criminal justice
Section could be top priorities in | 0:42:01 | 0:42:04 | |
what you are doing. They could be
cleared data on racial disparities, | 0:42:04 | 0:42:11 | |
exclusion particularly. The evidence
we have been given would suggest | 0:42:11 | 0:42:17 | |
that in other areas there will be
co-dependencies which are driving | 0:42:17 | 0:42:21 | |
disparity. We were given the example
that black women are twice as likely | 0:42:21 | 0:42:28 | |
to have mental health problems than
white women. More likely to be | 0:42:28 | 0:42:33 | |
living in social housing. It's maybe
that housing tenure is the problem | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
rather than race. How will you bring
that thinking together because | 0:42:38 | 0:42:44 | |
health and housing sit in different
Government departments? And do you | 0:42:44 | 0:42:48 | |
think there is room for a strategies
year so that those who are | 0:42:48 | 0:42:55 | |
interested -- strategy here so those
interested will know what priorities | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
you have decided our most important.
We have heard from O N as and HRC | 0:42:59 | 0:43:12 | |
that's transparency is essential for
good strategy... The data and is | 0:43:12 | 0:43:24 | |
that the data currently on the site
is that there are 130-140 measures. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:31 | |
We didn't have time to make linkages
between the different data sets. | 0:43:31 | 0:43:36 | |
That is something we could
prioritise in the second phase. It | 0:43:36 | 0:43:39 | |
would be interesting to know more
about the connections between | 0:43:39 | 0:43:43 | |
education, mental health, housing
and employment data. We are | 0:43:43 | 0:43:48 | |
discussing that other departments.
On the policy side, as you say, some | 0:43:48 | 0:43:52 | |
of the issues raised are classic
crosscutting Government policies, | 0:43:52 | 0:43:57 | |
whether there are serious
dependencies. We will be discussing | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
that between the connections between
education and deployment. We have no | 0:44:02 | 0:44:12 | |
plans at the moment to have a formal
cross- Government strategy. But | 0:44:12 | 0:44:20 | |
rather to expect departments to take
account of the Prime Minister's | 0:44:20 | 0:44:27 | |
priority here to work within their
area of responsible to. Sometimes | 0:44:27 | 0:44:37 | |
taking initiatives on the back of
the audit. Sometimes using audit | 0:44:37 | 0:44:43 | |
findings to influence the
development of work they were doing | 0:44:43 | 0:44:45 | |
anyway to provide for more effective
policies. To take your mental health | 0:44:45 | 0:44:52 | |
example, the Secretary of State for
Health and social care is of course | 0:44:52 | 0:44:55 | |
already preparing a mental health
strategy that will be published | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
later this year. He and his team
will be looking to the results of | 0:44:58 | 0:45:04 | |
the audit and building that in
similarly, the Westway review was | 0:45:04 | 0:45:10 | |
established towards the end of last
year into detention under the Mental | 0:45:10 | 0:45:16 | |
Health Act. It is a matter of record
that black people in particular are | 0:45:16 | 0:45:22 | |
more likely statistically to the
subject to detention than white | 0:45:22 | 0:45:28 | |
people under the Mental Health Act.
He will no doubt want to take that | 0:45:28 | 0:45:35 | |
into account in his work. You are
making choices with the wages use | 0:45:35 | 0:45:43 | |
scarce resources. How can this
committee scrutinise your choices. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:50 | |
-- with the way you use scarce
resources. Ultimately, in policy | 0:45:50 | 0:45:55 | |
terms, the choices are for
secretaries of state. In their | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
departments. What we seek to do
through the ministerial group is to | 0:45:59 | 0:46:11 | |
both remind... To remind the
Secretary of State of state -- | 0:46:11 | 0:46:21 | |
secretaries of state that the Prime
Minister attaches a high priority to | 0:46:21 | 0:46:25 | |
this and they are continuing to work
on this. Certainly, it would be | 0:46:25 | 0:46:31 | |
helpful to the committee, we could
look for ways to perhaps provide a | 0:46:31 | 0:46:37 | |
report to the committee from time to
time on progress so that the | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
committee has a view of what is
happening across Whitehall. I see no | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
problem about that as a matter of
principle. As I say, sometimes the | 0:46:46 | 0:46:52 | |
work to address the disparities
found in the audit will take place | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
within the context of a broader
policy works June that that | 0:46:55 | 0:47:01 | |
particular Secretary of State is
taking on. I am sure the committee | 0:47:01 | 0:47:06 | |
would always relished any
information the Government could | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
furnish them with. I am surprised.
You have had the data from the audit | 0:47:09 | 0:47:16 | |
for a very long time. Most of the
findings are not a secret. There is | 0:47:16 | 0:47:21 | |
no doubt there is a link between
people who do not receive a lot of | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
money in terms of employment and the
gap in pay for ethnic minority. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:31 | |
There is no chance of home ownership
for those who rent. It sounds | 0:47:31 | 0:47:36 | |
piecemeal, the approach. Unless you
have crosscutting Government | 0:47:36 | 0:47:40 | |
strategy, you cannot solve this. I
am sure you are aware of that. Is | 0:47:40 | 0:47:45 | |
there no chance of having perhaps a
minister for a race who can | 0:47:45 | 0:47:49 | |
coordinate everything that is
happening across departments? If it | 0:47:49 | 0:47:54 | |
is really a priority for the Prime
Minister and she is attaching | 0:47:54 | 0:47:59 | |
welcome importance, it doesn't sound
like you have an overall strategy. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
Correct me if I am wrong but it
sounds like each department is doing | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
its own thing and that won't solve
the problem. It is important that | 0:48:06 | 0:48:11 | |
each department feels like they have
responsibility here. I can | 0:48:11 | 0:48:18 | |
understand the argument. The risk
with designating a minister for race | 0:48:18 | 0:48:23 | |
equality, let's say, is that
departments then say it is that | 0:48:23 | 0:48:34 | |
minister's job rather than my job as
a minister for schools, courts, the | 0:48:34 | 0:48:40 | |
prison service. The police. To
address these problems in my | 0:48:40 | 0:48:47 | |
particular areas of responsibility
and dealing with the public services | 0:48:47 | 0:48:49 | |
for which in my ministerial capacity
I am responsible. The fact that the | 0:48:49 | 0:48:56 | |
unit is located in the Cabinet
office gives us a locus and | 0:48:56 | 0:49:01 | |
coordinating role to make sure
departments are being kept up to the | 0:49:01 | 0:49:06 | |
mark. I do not think that it would
be right to portray the Government's | 0:49:06 | 0:49:14 | |
response is in the recent sluggish.
We are determined to make certain of | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
the initiatives we take actually
identifying and apply policy | 0:49:18 | 0:49:24 | |
solutions that are going to work.
Taking your point about employment | 0:49:24 | 0:49:29 | |
and what we are doing their is to
establish 20 pilot projects as I | 0:49:29 | 0:49:35 | |
describe in areas of the country
where we have a high BAME population | 0:49:35 | 0:49:41 | |
and a large gap between ethnic
minority and white employment rates. | 0:49:41 | 0:49:46 | |
What we are doing is have Jobcentre
plus working with employers, the | 0:49:46 | 0:49:52 | |
voluntary sector, to understand and
take action to remedy those gaps. | 0:49:52 | 0:50:02 | |
Partly improving the training from
the Jobcentre staff dealing with | 0:50:02 | 0:50:06 | |
people from minority groups seeking
work. It also means talking to local | 0:50:06 | 0:50:11 | |
employers about things like perhaps
having a normalised job applications | 0:50:11 | 0:50:21 | |
addressing possible questions of
unconscious bias. It also means | 0:50:21 | 0:50:25 | |
talking to training providers
locally and education providers | 0:50:25 | 0:50:29 | |
because in some cases, I don't want
to speculate, but it may be we find | 0:50:29 | 0:50:35 | |
for some reason young people from
particular groups are not getting | 0:50:35 | 0:50:44 | |
access or gaining the qualifications
for which employers in that area are | 0:50:44 | 0:50:49 | |
looking. We need to get to grips
with the reason at a concrete level | 0:50:49 | 0:50:53 | |
and then put in place... I don't
think any of this data comes as a | 0:50:53 | 0:50:59 | |
surprise. It has been around for
years, people from ethnic minority | 0:50:59 | 0:51:04 | |
communities not getting the right
kind of pay or jobs they want. To | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
deny the links with housing I think
is astonishing. To say that someone | 0:51:07 | 0:51:13 | |
doesn't get paid enough money
therefore they cannot get on the | 0:51:13 | 0:51:16 | |
housing ladder, cannot rent, not to
address the problems in the rental | 0:51:16 | 0:51:21 | |
market, housing, I do not think you
can do with these departments | 0:51:21 | 0:51:26 | |
individually. You must realise there
has to be a overall strategy. I do | 0:51:26 | 0:51:32 | |
not think establishing a minister of
race would be dodging | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
responsibility, I think it would be
establishing... I have not ever said | 0:51:37 | 0:51:46 | |
that we will ignore the housing
question, or ignore possible | 0:51:46 | 0:51:51 | |
relationships there. I think that
when it comes to employment, there | 0:51:51 | 0:51:59 | |
have been some good signs of
progress. We know one of the groups | 0:51:59 | 0:52:05 | |
of people who are still least likely
to be in work are women from | 0:52:05 | 0:52:10 | |
Pakistani and Bangladeshi
communities in this country. It is | 0:52:10 | 0:52:14 | |
way below the national average for
female employment. It is still in | 0:52:14 | 0:52:18 | |
the last ten years we have seen a
significant increase in the number | 0:52:18 | 0:52:24 | |
of women from these communities
getting into employment. There are | 0:52:24 | 0:52:27 | |
success stories about the country we
can learn from and build on as well. | 0:52:27 | 0:52:32 | |
Are you satisfied with the level of
increase in the number of ethnic | 0:52:32 | 0:52:37 | |
minority women in 2018 that have got
jobs? No. The fact it is way below | 0:52:37 | 0:52:44 | |
average we cannot be satisfied. We
will need to move on for time. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:49 | |
Eddie? When disparities cannot be
explained, what deadlines have been | 0:52:49 | 0:52:56 | |
set for departments to come up with
a plan? We are still at relatively | 0:52:56 | 0:53:03 | |
early stages here, you will
appreciate I have been in the post | 0:53:03 | 0:53:10 | |
coming up to one month. In terms of
the work already done at official | 0:53:10 | 0:53:16 | |
level, I am not talking about sex
deadlines... As you said earlier, | 0:53:16 | 0:53:24 | |
the general aim is to be able to
demonstrate very significant | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
progress in tackling some of the key
-- I am not talking about set | 0:53:27 | 0:53:35 | |
deadlines. | 0:53:35 | 0:53:36 | |
What streams have been started in
response to the Government's | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
findings? The Government response to
the present enquiry was important. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:58 | |
The exclusion response where we will
have an external lead and a panel | 0:53:58 | 0:54:02 | |
will be set up externally to have a
member gratifies on that. Then we | 0:54:02 | 0:54:07 | |
have a number of work streams that
are going on within Government about | 0:54:07 | 0:54:12 | |
this. I mentioned the work that was
going on in terms of the review in | 0:54:12 | 0:54:19 | |
mental health, but when we go back
to education, the previous Secretary | 0:54:19 | 0:54:23 | |
of State for Education last autumn,
shortly before Christmas, launched a | 0:54:23 | 0:54:29 | |
social mobility plan for the
Department and findings of the audit | 0:54:29 | 0:54:37 | |
are being built into the ongoing
work of the department and social | 0:54:37 | 0:54:40 | |
mobility. So that's how the address
the broader issue of social | 0:54:40 | 0:54:48 | |
mobility, they are taking account of
the particular challenges thrown up | 0:54:48 | 0:54:51 | |
by the racial disparity audit. Not
to the exclusion of everyone else, | 0:54:51 | 0:54:57 | |
because it is a real challenge in
terms of kids from polar White | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
families in terms of
underperformance and schools as | 0:55:00 | 0:55:04 | |
well. What criteria are you using to
determine how you focus your | 0:55:04 | 0:55:14 | |
efforts? We are looking at the
findings of the audit. We are saying | 0:55:14 | 0:55:21 | |
to departments, where there is an
equality of outcome, the Prime | 0:55:21 | 0:55:25 | |
Minister will set this challenge
that you change or explain. We | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
accept that sometimes there will be
a crosscutting issue, other times it | 0:55:30 | 0:55:38 | |
may be that you are having to
address quite a deep-seated issues | 0:55:38 | 0:55:45 | |
about a relationship between people
in a particular community. The | 0:55:45 | 0:55:51 | |
operation of a public service and
the expectations that one has of the | 0:55:51 | 0:55:58 | |
other, and then to come forward and
come up with your solutions. But | 0:55:58 | 0:56:02 | |
it's going to be work that is not
going to be accomplished in six, not | 0:56:02 | 0:56:09 | |
even 12 months. This is going to be
a programme of work that will need | 0:56:09 | 0:56:14 | |
to be followed through for a period
of years and I think under more than | 0:56:14 | 0:56:19 | |
one Parliament. If we are going to
get genuine equality of opportunity | 0:56:19 | 0:56:26 | |
that we want to see. But it feels
that the problem could be so broad | 0:56:26 | 0:56:31 | |
it very difficult to focus down on
specific areas and prioritise. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:36 | |
Secondly, to what Tulip said, this
information has been around a long | 0:56:36 | 0:56:44 | |
time. I appreciate your volley been
in post for a month, but in terms of | 0:56:44 | 0:56:49 | |
deadlines, to be able to sit here in
12 months and say, we know it is | 0:56:49 | 0:56:54 | |
very broad, but what has actually
changed? What I have said two | 0:56:54 | 0:57:02 | |
officials is that I want us to be
any position, I think there will be | 0:57:02 | 0:57:07 | |
an expectation in parliament and
were generally, 12 months on from | 0:57:07 | 0:57:12 | |
publication of the audit in October
this year to be able to say in | 0:57:12 | 0:57:17 | |
public, this is the measurable
progress that has been made. While I | 0:57:17 | 0:57:20 | |
met some of the leading NGOs is in
this field a couple of weeks ago, | 0:57:20 | 0:57:32 | |
they felt that the timescale was a
reasonable one. Organisations like | 0:57:32 | 0:57:44 | |
have welcomed the order, but when I
have been speaking to them, there | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
are questions or what difference
with this initiative may compare two | 0:57:47 | 0:57:53 | |
different ones that have taken place
in the blast, so do you have a plan | 0:57:53 | 0:57:59 | |
for serious action in targeted
areas? Do you have plans for | 0:57:59 | 0:58:03 | |
measurable targets and are you going
to focus on procurement about | 0:58:03 | 0:58:07 | |
tackling racial disparities when it
comes to employment? First of all on | 0:58:07 | 0:58:17 | |
the organisations, I have found that
when I have taught them they are | 0:58:17 | 0:58:21 | |
very welcoming of this. What I have
said to them in response to the | 0:58:21 | 0:58:25 | |
challenge that they have
understandably made is that this is | 0:58:25 | 0:58:31 | |
the difference, that this is going
to be a sustained period of work. | 0:58:31 | 0:58:35 | |
It's not going to be something that
we published in order to get a | 0:58:35 | 0:58:39 | |
headline in October 2017 and are
then going to forget about. That | 0:58:39 | 0:58:47 | |
does mean we are not going to be
looking for glib headlines and | 0:58:47 | 0:58:52 | |
something we can claim as an instant
result, it has to be steady work, | 0:58:52 | 0:58:59 | |
target by target, priority by
priority, to deliver the right | 0:58:59 | 0:59:02 | |
outcomes over time. Certainly what
they said to me is that it is the | 0:59:02 | 0:59:11 | |
feeling of the people they represent
is that it is a flash in the pan. -- | 0:59:11 | 0:59:16 | |
the fear of the people. We have to
demonstrate sustained effort. | 0:59:16 | 0:59:26 | |
Budgets? I said earlier that every
Government department operates | 0:59:26 | 0:59:32 | |
within the budget that they were
allocated in the spending review. | 0:59:32 | 0:59:37 | |
Clearly the work that apartments
want to do in the next spending | 0:59:37 | 0:59:42 | |
period is something that secretaries
of state bid for in the normal way. | 0:59:42 | 0:59:46 | |
There is a limited budget available
in the Cabinet Office to try to | 0:59:46 | 0:59:51 | |
support crosscutting work. But we
look to departments because this is | 0:59:51 | 1:00:00 | |
about achieving the Prime Minister's
stated social policy objectives, to | 1:00:00 | 1:00:06 | |
find within the existing resources,
to deliver results. An additional | 1:00:06 | 1:00:14 | |
point about scrutiny and follow-up.
I think there is one important point | 1:00:14 | 1:00:18 | |
about the product from the report
being a living website. There is | 1:00:18 | 1:00:23 | |
already some series on this, but as
the data changes we will add it, so | 1:00:23 | 1:00:27 | |
you will be able to see month by
month, year by year, whether things | 1:00:27 | 1:00:31 | |
are getting better or worse. I think
that provides transparency but also | 1:00:31 | 1:00:39 | |
some accountability and also
pressure for change. It's not one | 1:00:39 | 1:00:44 | |
set of stats and that's it. Month by
month, once you want to implement | 1:00:44 | 1:00:49 | |
the findings of the orders, how will
you be measuring the success of the | 1:00:49 | 1:00:53 | |
initiatives you are planning to
implement? That's a slightly | 1:00:53 | 1:00:58 | |
different issue. We will update data
on the website for all of the | 1:00:58 | 1:01:02 | |
measures as it changes and quite a
lot has changed since launch in | 1:01:02 | 1:01:05 | |
October, so there have already been
a lot of updates. I think it is a | 1:01:05 | 1:01:12 | |
separate question as and when
Department said at the initiatives | 1:01:12 | 1:01:18 | |
to tackle inequalities. The unifying
the crosscutting strategy was help | 1:01:18 | 1:01:23 | |
you to measure the success of the
sale of more than having individual | 1:01:23 | 1:01:26 | |
departments are their own thing?
Actually, I think the gap between | 1:01:26 | 1:01:33 | |
what Tulip is calling for, a cross
Government discussed J and what I am | 1:01:33 | 1:01:40 | |
describing, which is departments
building this work into their | 1:01:40 | 1:01:47 | |
mainstream business and building it
in as part of the key priorities, | 1:01:47 | 1:01:53 | |
with a coordinating mechanism of
voters by Marcus's unit and by the | 1:01:53 | 1:02:02 | |
interministerial group I chair, I
think that gap is perhaps less than | 1:02:02 | 1:02:09 | |
you fear. Have previous Government
is not tried that one feels? -- and | 1:02:09 | 1:02:18 | |
a failed. And don't want to pass
judgment on previous governments. It | 1:02:18 | 1:02:26 | |
is fair to say this is something
successive governments have talked | 1:02:26 | 1:02:29 | |
about and we still see some of these
inequalities of outcome. Which means | 1:02:29 | 1:02:35 | |
the previous Government strategies
have not worked. I don't think there | 1:02:35 | 1:02:39 | |
is a magic to putting the label of
cross Government strategy on | 1:02:39 | 1:02:42 | |
something. I have seen plenty of
those, and go in my time in | 1:02:42 | 1:02:47 | |
Parliament. What I believe can make
the difference here is the personal | 1:02:47 | 1:02:54 | |
commitment of the Prime Minister and
I do think also the reaction of | 1:02:54 | 1:03:01 | |
people in a lot of departments at
operational levels, and this is the | 1:03:01 | 1:03:05 | |
advice I get for the Cabinet Office
team, has been very positive that | 1:03:05 | 1:03:09 | |
this is something that key officials
in Government positions really want | 1:03:09 | 1:03:14 | |
to make a difference over. I seem to
remember a previous prime ministers | 1:03:14 | 1:03:20 | |
being committed to that exercise it,
don't know where that one went! Is | 1:03:20 | 1:03:26 | |
the reason the audit didn't refer to
the public sector audit committee? | 1:03:26 | 1:03:35 | |
Simply a slightly different thing.
The publics sceptre equality duty | 1:03:35 | 1:03:40 | |
requires public authorities to have
due regard to eliminate unlawful | 1:03:40 | 1:03:47 | |
discrimination, harassment,
victimisation and other things that | 1:03:47 | 1:03:50 | |
are outlawed by the act and to
advance equality of opportunity and | 1:03:50 | 1:03:55 | |
foster good relations. Those duties
apply. What we are looking at here | 1:03:55 | 1:04:04 | |
is we are focusing on the outcomes.
What is the experience of people | 1:04:04 | 1:04:10 | |
from BAME communities? How can we
make sure that public services | 1:04:10 | 1:04:15 | |
genuinely are providing equal
treatment and equality of | 1:04:15 | 1:04:20 | |
opportunity for them? Those services
are already under public sector | 1:04:20 | 1:04:27 | |
equality duty. In my experience,
management and leaders in the public | 1:04:27 | 1:04:35 | |
services are very well aware of
their responsibilities in that | 1:04:35 | 1:04:39 | |
regard. But what we are needing to
do now is really probed why, despite | 1:04:39 | 1:04:47 | |
the existence of that duty for some
years now, there are still the | 1:04:47 | 1:04:52 | |
disparities that were shown last
October. Just before I bring Angela | 1:04:52 | 1:04:57 | |
in, I want to pick up on one
particular issue. You talk about | 1:04:57 | 1:05:02 | |
departments building racial
disparity in their work, which I | 1:05:02 | 1:05:05 | |
think is welcome, when I think back
to the ministerial working group on | 1:05:05 | 1:05:10 | |
Gypsy Roma Travellers, a student
under the coalition Government in | 1:05:10 | 1:05:16 | |
2012, its promise, and we've all
this even looking at that piece of | 1:05:16 | 1:05:19 | |
work, that issues to do with Gypsy
Roma Travellers will be included in | 1:05:19 | 1:05:24 | |
reviews and reports in the future
from 2012 onwards and when the | 1:05:24 | 1:05:28 | |
reports were actually published, and
I'm thinking about things like hate | 1:05:28 | 1:05:34 | |
crime review or exclusion review in
2014 or bullying guidance, these | 1:05:34 | 1:05:41 | |
communities did not feature as had
been promised. How can we make sure | 1:05:41 | 1:05:47 | |
that the new reviews do exactly what
you as the minister wants them to do | 1:05:47 | 1:05:51 | |
and take the race disparity audit
information into account and the | 1:05:51 | 1:05:56 | |
work of the race disparity units? It
seems like there has been good | 1:05:56 | 1:06:00 | |
intentions in the past under a
Conservative led Government but we | 1:06:00 | 1:06:05 | |
want to make sure that this is going
to be continued in the future in a | 1:06:05 | 1:06:10 | |
way which can be monitored and can
be held to account. It is partly | 1:06:10 | 1:06:16 | |
held to account by the various
statistical series. The website is a | 1:06:16 | 1:06:25 | |
living source of information. Part
way through the interministerial | 1:06:25 | 1:06:28 | |
group where the relevant departments
will be represented. What the | 1:06:28 | 1:06:36 | |
trouble of stats showed was that
Gypsy and Roma children come bottom | 1:06:36 | 1:06:41 | |
of all the tables in terms of school
attainment. We were quite closely | 1:06:41 | 1:06:50 | |
with organisations representing the
community on the orders and we are | 1:06:50 | 1:06:54 | |
keen to include four days we could
about Gypsy and Roma Traveller | 1:06:54 | 1:06:58 | |
people. There are a couple of
reasons that are worth spelling out. | 1:06:58 | 1:07:06 | |
Some departments do not collect it,
they do not ask, are you a Gypsy, | 1:07:06 | 1:07:13 | |
Roma Traveller? Obviously we can
only publish the data that | 1:07:13 | 1:07:16 | |
apartments have. Even where it is
collected, the numbers are small and | 1:07:16 | 1:07:22 | |
the distribution is relatively even
across the country, so if you get | 1:07:22 | 1:07:25 | |
below a very general level of
analysis, you are talking about very | 1:07:25 | 1:07:29 | |
small numbers and there is little to
say. That doesn't mean that there is | 1:07:29 | 1:07:33 | |
nothing to be done going forward,
but although we were quite keen to | 1:07:33 | 1:07:39 | |
include what data we could, for
those reasons there is not much on | 1:07:39 | 1:07:42 | |
the site, with the exception of
education, whether as a lot of | 1:07:42 | 1:07:47 | |
detailed information about GRT
children. How will you be | 1:07:47 | 1:07:51 | |
supplementing the data in the race
disparity audit to address GRT | 1:07:51 | 1:07:56 | |
better in the future? We are talking
to departments about what data they | 1:07:56 | 1:08:02 | |
collect and about which categories
the use with the view to try and get | 1:08:02 | 1:08:07 | |
a bit more consistency in their
approach. I think Gypsy Roma | 1:08:07 | 1:08:13 | |
Traveller is one of the standard
issue as there because one | 1:08:13 | 1:08:17 | |
department has an awful lot of
rather disquieting information about | 1:08:17 | 1:08:21 | |
GRT children and how they are doing
and others know relatively little. | 1:08:21 | 1:08:24 | |
October was a start. We're
listening, talking to departments | 1:08:29 | 1:08:36 | |
and listening outside what is being
said about the additional categories | 1:08:36 | 1:08:41 | |
of information that they would like
to see collected and published on | 1:08:41 | 1:08:47 | |
the website. If the committee has
suggestions for that, I am sure we | 1:08:47 | 1:08:52 | |
would want to take those into
account. Tony to the Government's | 1:08:52 | 1:09:00 | |
engagements with civil society, how
do you expect the role of Government | 1:09:00 | 1:09:03 | |
to engage to ensure disparities
revealed with the audit can be | 1:09:03 | 1:09:11 | |
addressed? I made a point in the
last couple of weeks of meeting a | 1:09:11 | 1:09:20 | |
number of the leaders of some of the
key organisations in this field. | 1:09:20 | 1:09:28 | |
Official level, this is done very
regularly. How often? We try to make | 1:09:28 | 1:09:42 | |
a point of that in terms of how we
do the work engaging with lots of | 1:09:42 | 1:09:48 | |
voluntary organisations and members
of the public. How do you expect to | 1:09:48 | 1:09:54 | |
support civil society to deliver on
these outcomes you are discussing? | 1:09:54 | 1:10:03 | |
It is Government, summarily central
Government, that is the priority. -- | 1:10:03 | 1:10:15 | |
summarily central Government. The
purpose of the audit is to provide | 1:10:15 | 1:10:18 | |
the statistical basis on which to
shape policy for the delivery of | 1:10:18 | 1:10:26 | |
public services. We are getting some
local authorities, some NHS trusts | 1:10:26 | 1:10:32 | |
who having seen the audit results
are coming to us and saying, we | 1:10:32 | 1:10:37 | |
would like to learn from this. What
can we do? In our areas of | 1:10:37 | 1:10:43 | |
responsibilities? Civil society IC
as important partners, but the | 1:10:43 | 1:10:52 | |
actual... It may well be as for
example in the pilot projects | 1:10:52 | 1:11:00 | |
unemployment that we conclude that
working more effectively with civil | 1:11:00 | 1:11:05 | |
society on the delivery of public
services, for example on the | 1:11:05 | 1:11:12 | |
mentoring of people, is the best way
to address the disparities the audit | 1:11:12 | 1:11:15 | |
has revealed. Coming back to your
previous point about the role of the | 1:11:15 | 1:11:22 | |
Cabinet office, you mentioned how
you see the role of the Cabinet | 1:11:22 | 1:11:26 | |
office as coordination and almost
oversight. How will the Government | 1:11:26 | 1:11:30 | |
departments be held to account for
their response work on the audit. | 1:11:30 | 1:11:35 | |
You will be responsible for
assessing? It will be through the | 1:11:35 | 1:11:41 | |
ministerial group. Which will be
served by the racial disparity unit. | 1:11:41 | 1:11:46 | |
The unit will report to ministers,
to me, ultimately the power minister | 1:11:46 | 1:11:53 | |
on the progress that has been made,
or where we are finding problems. | 1:11:53 | 1:12:01 | |
Moving on to the last couple of
questions. What do you think the | 1:12:01 | 1:12:06 | |
Cabinet office has learned about the
quality of the data on ethnicity | 1:12:06 | 1:12:09 | |
that is currently collected across
the public sector? Are you really | 1:12:09 | 1:12:18 | |
happy, or really unhappy, or
somewhere in between? I will soon | 1:12:18 | 1:12:26 | |
for expertise. -- turn for
expertise. I am not a statistician. | 1:12:26 | 1:12:31 | |
It has been very very. Different
departments have obviously over the | 1:12:31 | 1:12:37 | |
years collected sets of information
that they judged was the most | 1:12:37 | 1:12:43 | |
important for their departmental
priorities. Sometimes that provides, | 1:12:43 | 1:12:50 | |
as in the case of education
attainment, some quite comprehensive | 1:12:50 | 1:12:55 | |
statistics about outcomes for
different ethnic groups. Other | 1:12:55 | 1:13:00 | |
departments have not previously seen
this as central to the role and have | 1:13:00 | 1:13:04 | |
not collected these statistics or
the statistics are not easily | 1:13:04 | 1:13:12 | |
divisible so that you can come up
with meaningful samples by age or | 1:13:12 | 1:13:21 | |
other social characteristics. That
is exactly right. If you look | 1:13:21 | 1:13:29 | |
through the site, there is enormous
variation in the quality and depth | 1:13:29 | 1:13:35 | |
of ethnicity data held by Government
departments. Particularly | 1:13:35 | 1:13:40 | |
departments where there has been
scrutiny pressure over the years, | 1:13:40 | 1:13:49 | |
there can be more details, granular
and useful data, and others have not | 1:13:49 | 1:13:53 | |
had so much. Is there other data you
have rejected and not put on the | 1:13:53 | 1:13:59 | |
website because it would be
misleading? We identified 340 | 1:13:59 | 1:14:08 | |
datasets and only published 20% of
those so far. Potentially, more to | 1:14:08 | 1:14:13 | |
come, but some we did not include
for quality reasons. It doesn't | 1:14:13 | 1:14:18 | |
necessarily mean it was bad data,
though in some cases it was, it is | 1:14:18 | 1:14:22 | |
more it did not satisfy the quality
bar we wanted to apply to the | 1:14:22 | 1:14:27 | |
numbers. When we were talking
earlier this morning to the Office | 1:14:27 | 1:14:32 | |
of National Statistics about data,
consistency was something we raised. | 1:14:32 | 1:14:40 | |
We are interested to know your plans
to improve the consistency of data | 1:14:40 | 1:14:45 | |
collected and also the ability that
you will have two disaggregate that | 1:14:45 | 1:14:48 | |
data. Can you explain? We are
working with the Office of National | 1:14:48 | 1:14:58 | |
Statistics, we have a great interest
in ethnic classification | 1:14:58 | 1:15:05 | |
consistency. We are looking through
my working the statisticians across | 1:15:05 | 1:15:12 | |
Government -- working with
statisticians across Government. You | 1:15:12 | 1:15:15 | |
cannot re-boot all departments.
Slow, incremental work to get more | 1:15:15 | 1:15:24 | |
consistency there is important. In
terms of data quality, obviously | 1:15:24 | 1:15:30 | |
this was a big cross-Government data
project in the way it networked into | 1:15:30 | 1:15:36 | |
analysts, departments, and had high
quality conversations on how to | 1:15:36 | 1:15:41 | |
improve the quality of the data
where it is not where it should be. | 1:15:41 | 1:15:45 | |
We try to apply the UK statistics
Association code in terms of judging | 1:15:45 | 1:15:54 | |
the quality of things we could
publish on the website. You see | 1:15:54 | 1:16:02 | |
consistency and disaggregation as a
priority for the way this data set | 1:16:02 | 1:16:09 | |
developed? I think so, yes. With
disaggregation, getting more | 1:16:09 | 1:16:16 | |
geographical disaggregation where we
can lose important. The feedback we | 1:16:16 | 1:16:21 | |
have had about this site is some of
the more usable and interesting data | 1:16:21 | 1:16:26 | |
is where outcomes for people of
different ethnicities are compared | 1:16:26 | 1:16:30 | |
in different geographical areas.
That is something we are keen to do | 1:16:30 | 1:16:33 | |
more on. My final point would be, we
heard about the work OMS is doing | 1:16:33 | 1:16:40 | |
around the senses. -- the census.
And perhaps how that could be used | 1:16:40 | 1:16:48 | |
more between multiple census. Is
that something the Government will | 1:16:48 | 1:16:57 | |
support? There is a clear structure
with the census whereby ONS decides | 1:16:57 | 1:17:07 | |
what questions are going to be
asked. Obviously there are a number | 1:17:07 | 1:17:11 | |
of demands for different categories
to be specified in questions on the | 1:17:11 | 1:17:25 | |
census. That will be for them to
make a judgment in due course, the | 1:17:25 | 1:17:31 | |
Office of National Statistics. Thank
you for your time. I appreciate you | 1:17:31 | 1:17:35 | |
taking the time out of your busy
diaries to be with us and Dolby | 1:17:35 | 1:17:40 | |
preparation that goes with that. The
committee will now have a private | 1:17:40 | 1:17:46 | |
session. | 1:17:46 | 1:17:48 |