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Nobody, not one organisation was

actually tackling it and doing a

0:58:510:58:54

thing about it. And that is

shocking. You are also opposed to

0:58:540:58:59

the good people trying to help the

world but you are not as good as you

0:58:590:59:04

should be.

I feel, it is truly

heartbreaking that we are in this

0:59:040:59:11

situation but I want to assure you

that we were not doing nothing. We

0:59:110:59:17

were working on it but we have

reached the point where the world

0:59:170:59:22

has woken up to the abuse of women

and girls in a very special way and

0:59:220:59:29

we find ourselves not to have done

enough but we did something, we have

0:59:290:59:32

been improving every year, but we

are not where we want to be. And we

0:59:320:59:38

admit that.

Your organisation is not

the victim in this it is the women

0:59:380:59:44

and girls being abused by the menu

employed in other agencies. -- by

0:59:440:59:50

the men you employed. No wonder the

world is angry and questioning

0:59:500:59:55

whether money should be given to

charities, sadly the people who

0:59:550:59:59

should benefit from this are the

poor people in the different

0:59:591:00:03

countries and we are going to lose

out because of all of your

1:00:031:00:06

behaviours in the aid sector.

I can

see that indeed some people entered

1:00:061:00:14

our system who did not share

guidance, the abused the trust of

1:00:141:00:19

Oxfam, the power of Oxfam in their

hands, the abused the trust of the

1:00:191:00:26

British public who contribute and

turned on the people who are

1:00:261:00:29

supposed to protect. It is true. I

am deeply sorry for that. But this

1:00:291:00:34

lifeline that we give to people

caught in conflict and in disasters,

1:00:341:00:40

I know personally, I came to this

country as a teenager fleeing a

1:00:401:00:46

brutal dictatorship in my country

and benefited from the generosity of

1:00:461:00:50

British people. I think that I find

we must keep going but we will clean

1:00:501:00:57

up.

Absolutely, it must happen.

Thank you, Pauline. Nigel.

How many

1:00:571:01:07

subscriptions have been cancelled to

Oxfam following the revelations?

I

1:01:071:01:13

think about 7000 individuals have

cancelled a regular donation to

1:01:131:01:18

Oxfam over the last ten days.

That

is a massive impact. At any

1:01:181:01:25

corporate sponsors severed

connections?

Corporate sponsors are

1:01:251:01:31

reserving judgment, they want to

look at both what we have done, what

1:01:311:01:35

policies and procedures are, how

their particular relationship may

1:01:351:01:39

have been compromised and indeed

what we are setting in place for the

1:01:391:01:43

future.

And of the new cases coming

to light, we know some of them are

1:01:431:01:52

historic, taking into regard sex

tourism was through the world, are

1:01:521:01:58

you passing the relevant information

onto the relevant police

1:01:581:02:00

authorities?

We have made an

absolute commitment that if there is

1:02:001:02:04

a possibility that a crime has been

committed we will pass that

1:02:041:02:08

information on. What I have done

already is right to the government

1:02:081:02:14

of the countries, the seven

countries from which the

1:02:141:02:17

perpetrators in Haiti came,

explained what we found them

1:02:171:02:23

culpable of. I have also given that

fool listen to the Haitian

1:02:231:02:26

government. But our commitment is

that we will report anything that

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might be a crime and it is not for

Oxfam to decide whether it is a

1:02:301:02:34

crime, if it is potentially illegal

our job is to make sure that the

1:02:341:02:39

relevant authorities whether they be

several police are informed.

Could I

1:02:391:02:45

add something here? Oxfam works at

any one time in more than 40 crisis

1:02:451:02:51

countries, at any one moment. We

have a long history that started

1:02:511:02:56

here in 1942. Underground things are

very complex. You will find in some

1:02:561:03:03

countries where there are laws

against prostitution but where the

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practice is that it is women who are

pursued for being prostitutes, not

1:03:091:03:14

the men who buy sex. In other

countries it is only women who are

1:03:141:03:20

under the law prohibited from

prostitution, the law does not touch

1:03:201:03:25

men. In providing this information

to authorities we must always be

1:03:251:03:31

conscious, are we risking the very

women who have been abused by doing

1:03:311:03:35

this? It is not simple.

I appreciate

that but we have domestic laws in

1:03:351:03:42

the United Kingdom where we can

pursue wrongdoers here, so I think

1:03:421:03:47

we mustn't forget that. I realise

this was out of your purview because

1:03:471:03:50

you came in 2013 but when the

Secretary of State, he seems to

1:03:501:03:55

suggest that Oxfam had with the

permanent secretary then, the

1:03:551:04:01

gravity of the situation really did

not come to light. In the

1:04:011:04:05

discussions that you have had with

the permanent secretary, how far has

1:04:051:04:12

the officials gone down to the

seriousness of the allegations of

1:04:121:04:15

the sexual problems that existed in

Haiti and other countries?

I think

1:04:151:04:20

it is completely fair to say that

Oxfam did not tell the Department

1:04:201:04:25

for International Development

enough, Oxfam contacted every donor

1:04:251:04:28

that have given money for that

appeal. The SIG was not amongst

1:04:281:04:34

those donors. But as in a sense the

parent government of Oxfam Great

1:04:341:04:40

Britain Oxfam also contacted the F

ID, it did not say enough. I think

1:04:401:04:47

Mr Mitchell's assurance that he did

not realise the gravity is backed up

1:04:471:04:52

by estimates.

Since you have taken

over at what stage have you started

1:04:521:04:55

to give full information about what

is going on?

What I did with the

1:04:551:05:00

Secretary of State last week was:

her at her request, give her a copy

1:05:001:05:04

of the full investigation report and

give her a full picture of what had

1:05:041:05:10

happened and what Oxfam did

afterwards. We have reassured the

1:05:101:05:16

Charity commission, who are our

primary regulator, will matter where

1:05:161:05:19

the money comes from that we will

not use words like sexual

1:05:191:05:25

misconduct, which is what we use in

our report to them, we will spell

1:05:251:05:29

things out and then they can make a

much more informed decision as to

1:05:291:05:34

whether they want to follow that

through. We do see the Charity

1:05:341:05:38

commission as a prime source of

formal accountability because the

1:05:381:05:41

money may or may not come from the

IFT. And at my apology, the concern

1:05:411:05:49

is that the F ID is time to be a

leader in humanitarian development

1:05:491:05:56

and in tackling violence against

women and anything that undermines

1:05:561:06:00

that effort of the widgets

government at people as comprising

1:06:001:06:04

their mission.

I appreciate that.

That is why I am not going back to

1:06:041:06:09

far beyond your time. We have is

what Andrew said what -- when he was

1:06:091:06:13

Secretary of State and the conceded

that was the case. But I'm

1:06:131:06:20

interested in now is the discussions

that demo officials had with you.

1:06:201:06:26

How often do they raise the case of

sexual must practice in projects

1:06:261:06:30

around the world? How rigorous Abbey

in drilling down with you? Ever

1:06:301:06:40

since you to go with your position.

How interested in the in the issues

1:06:401:06:45

that they have been reading?

DFID is

an important funder of Oxfam in

1:06:451:06:53

several projects, we do not get

general funds from DFID and about

1:06:531:06:56

10% of turnover per year comes from

ten the night. But as a

1:06:561:07:02

representative of the British

government we have a better

1:07:021:07:05

obligation so I detailed

accountability is to the Charity

1:07:051:07:09

commission, what we have committed

to the Secretary of State is that we

1:07:091:07:12

will give her details on all of

these new cases that have come up so

1:07:121:07:15

they can see.

What you're saying is

that discussions between permanent

1:07:151:07:20

officials and yourselves on this

issue really have not been all that

1:07:201:07:24

detail until now?

On individual

cases where they have related to the

1:07:241:07:29

British government funding, I

believe we have kept them

1:07:291:07:32

well-informed. Where we have funds

from other sources it has been much

1:07:321:07:38

more a sense of what do we do

together to pick up on the kinds of

1:07:381:07:42

issues that Miss Latham was talking

about? Which was tackling sexual

1:07:421:07:46

violence, which the former song --

former Foreign Secretary took the

1:07:461:07:51

lead on. But you never got the sense

that permanent secretaries are other

1:07:511:07:57

individuals within DFID had raised

this issue as being something that

1:07:571:08:00

is endemic in paid work in certain

parts of the world?

1:08:001:08:05

I think the British government has

shown real leadership in saying this

1:08:051:08:08

is a problem not just about the

behaviour of aid workers but

1:08:081:08:12

violence against women and the abuse

of women is something the British

1:08:121:08:15

government has given a priority to,

we're going to work with them on

1:08:151:08:19

that. We have also made a commitment

to them consistently that there

1:08:191:08:22

should not be any surprises from

Oxfam that undermine.

So when the

1:08:221:08:28

permanent Secretary needs of

officials from Oxfam and yourself in

1:08:281:08:34

October, how often have you spoken

with the permanent secretaries about

1:08:341:08:38

six practice?

I cannot say aye have

spoken to the permanent secretaries

1:08:381:08:43

or indeed ministers about sexual

practice in Oxfam until these issues

1:08:431:08:48

have arisen. I have spoken to

readers of DFID both logical and

1:08:481:08:55

civil servants about working

together to tackle violence against

1:08:551:08:58

women and abuse of women. We try to

work on the central business and

1:08:581:09:04

indeed are now doing so to respond

to things like the passport in that

1:09:041:09:08

we talked about.

Maki mentioned many

times that you are answerable mainly

1:09:081:09:20

to the Charity commission but when

Oxfam put the matter to the Charity

1:09:201:09:30

commission, what reasons behind a

door know but they failed to mention

1:09:301:09:33

that crimes have been committed. And

it is true that they may have been

1:09:331:09:40

involved. Why was that the failure?

I can't defend that decision, I

1:09:401:09:48

don't defence that decision, the

report made at the time in 2011

1:09:481:09:52

talked about sexual misconduct, it's

talked about bullying and

1:09:521:09:58

intimidation and breaches of the

Oxfam could conduct and unacceptable

1:09:581:10:02

behaviour. I believe that my

colleagues at the time thought that

1:10:021:10:05

this was sufficiently transparent. I

am not defending it, I don't justify

1:10:051:10:09

it and we are committed that we will

go further. I can see by the Charity

1:10:091:10:12

commission says that this was not

enough. At the time the enquiry

1:10:121:10:18

report which I believe you have said

that there was, Oxfam was unable to

1:10:181:10:25

establish where there was no proof

that women under 18 were involved.

1:10:251:10:30

Despite the investigation. I think

we should actually said exactly

1:10:301:10:34

that. Rather than simply leaving it

out. I think my colleagues did what

1:10:341:10:43

they thought was sufficiently

transparent at the time, we know now

1:10:431:10:46

what was not transparent enough and

our commitment is, we will give the

1:10:461:10:50

details to the relevant authorities

whether in the countries concerned

1:10:501:10:53

or in the UK and we will let them

work out what is right and wrong and

1:10:531:10:58

how we should sort it out and we

will quarterly with that.

Do you

1:10:581:11:03

agree that when the public think it

was a deliberate way of hiding the

1:11:031:11:10

truth from the general public, when

they failed to inform on such an

1:11:101:11:18

important part of the complaint to

the Charity commission?

I can fully

1:11:181:11:22

see why the public has a challenge

to any confidence in what Oxfam said

1:11:221:11:28

and did overtime. We now have to

work hard to earn back that trust

1:11:281:11:33

from the public that we will not do

my words, we will do it by deeds. At

1:11:331:11:38

the time my colleagues reflected

undecided on a form of words that

1:11:381:11:44

they thought were sufficiently

transparent, which included section

1:11:441:11:48

-- sexual misconduct. We know that

was not sufficient. And telling half

1:11:481:11:54

the story is not enough. We have to

go further and especially if we want

1:11:541:12:00

to set ourselves up to be trusted by

the public. We have actually got to

1:12:001:12:02

say we will go the extra mile, we

will be unequivocal in the way we

1:12:021:12:06

handle this and that is a commitment

that we have made.

We have quite a

1:12:061:12:14

few more questions and we have two

further panels will go to James.

1:12:141:12:19

Earlier in response to Mr Evans he

conflated preventing sexual violence

1:12:191:12:25

as perpetrated in country by the

people in country, should --

1:12:251:12:30

shouldn't we expect a higher

standard of people from a European

1:12:301:12:34

environment with the European set of

laws funded by the taxpayer and

1:12:341:12:37

funded by small donations? And could

I give you the opportunity to split

1:12:371:12:44

those two things out because I do

not think they are equivalent.

I'm

1:12:441:12:48

sorry if I give that impression. I

was trying to respond to what Oxfam

1:12:481:12:53

atop the Department for ten national

development about and I was seeing

1:12:531:12:57

we talked about the bigger issue not

only specific behaviour of the

1:12:571:13:01

organisation. Oxfam must be held to

the highest standards of personal

1:13:011:13:04

behaviour. Those individuals came

from seven different countries

1:13:041:13:08

around the world, not including the

UK. But they were being managed by a

1:13:081:13:14

UK agency and we take full

responsibility for that. We have got

1:13:141:13:19

to work on this agricultural level

in the way that when he described,

1:13:191:13:23

so that our values are driven

through everything from how we

1:13:231:13:28

collect references to how we get

them at the other end and everything

1:13:281:13:31

in between. The training, the

behaviour, the accountability. Their

1:13:311:13:36

behaviour was not acceptable, it was

not acceptable that Oxfam tolerated

1:13:361:13:39

it or indeed that is less if -- led

certain individual design rather

1:13:391:13:44

than go three former process so you

have improved commitment that we do

1:13:441:13:50

not accept those standards.

1:13:501:13:58

There was a statement that there was

no abusive beneficiaries -- abuse of

1:13:581:14:05

beneficiaries. I'm trying to get a

grasp of what a beneficiary is. I

1:14:051:14:09

think what you're saying is there

was no transaction of aid or food

1:14:091:14:14

and expecting to have sex but is

there a wider definition of

1:14:141:14:18

beneficiary? Nobody goes into

prostitution as an alternative to a

1:14:181:14:25

well-paid job somewhere else.

Completely agree. Oxfam used

1:14:251:14:36

beneficiary to mean those indirect

receipt of Oxfam assistance. The

1:14:361:14:39

whole population of much of Haiti

were beneficiaries in the wider

1:14:391:14:47

sense of which they were affected by

the earthquake. They were living in

1:14:471:14:51

poverty. Whether or not they were

affected by the earthquake. Oxfam

1:14:511:14:57

tried to distinguish in a technical

way was not the right thing to do.

1:14:571:15:03

The investigators were trying to

say, there was not the selling of

1:15:031:15:06

six in return for Oxfam aid to --

selling of sex. There was a much

1:15:061:15:13

bigger failure and misdemeanour.

you

think there is sex for aid going on?

1:15:131:15:21

Not at Oxfam but wider?

I just want

to say that this categorisation is

1:15:211:15:29

not even something we should pay

much attention to. This is about

1:15:291:15:34

abuse of power, this is about abuse

of women and girls because they are

1:15:341:15:38

vulnerable and voiceless. Whether

they have given them some money from

1:15:381:15:46

Oxfam or from their pocket, it is

still not warrant as we are ashamed

1:15:461:15:54

-- it is still abhorrent. We're

going to route it out of our

1:15:541:16:00

organisation. It's a cultural issue.

We have to fight it as a cultural

1:16:001:16:04

issue. It's also an issue of

procedures.

I think it's a legal

1:16:041:16:10

issue.

A legal issue, yes.

Could be

go back to the issue of references?

1:16:101:16:20

You said the former director of the

Haiti office went on to work with

1:16:201:16:26

other NGOs and what Oxfam provided

was a record of when he worked for

1:16:261:16:32

Oxfam rather than a reference in the

traditional sense. There were seven

1:16:321:16:39

men involved in those incidents in

Haiti. Did any of them have

1:16:391:16:46

references on Oxfam paper?

To the

rest of my knowledge, one did. One

1:16:461:16:58

gave as his referee one of the other

staff in the Haiti office who was

1:16:581:17:07

his senior, who then got sent a form

by another agency to fill in and

1:17:071:17:11

filled it in as from Oxfam. It had

no official Oxfam stamp but it was

1:17:111:17:18

from Oxfam, so because the reference

went straight to the individual to

1:17:181:17:24

be written, the former manager, he

filled it in having left Oxfam's

1:17:241:17:30

employment as an individual, but

said I was the manager of that

1:17:301:17:34

person. That's the one instance that

I've come across on which a

1:17:341:17:41

reference that an innocent third

party, another agency, could

1:17:411:17:45

reasonably believed the reference

had come from Oxfam even though it

1:17:451:17:47

had not come from the institution

and to prevent any of that happening

1:17:471:17:53

again, the improvement that we have

been talking about witches that we

1:17:531:17:57

only allow references to come

certain channels, we have now

1:17:571:18:03

introduced. We were not aware...

Well, we should have been aware that

1:18:031:18:08

that was a risk that could happen

but we couldn't stop the individuals

1:18:081:18:12

doing it. We need something that is

more proactive which is essentially

1:18:121:18:17

the central register, which is which

we are now trying to explore.

No

1:18:171:18:24

Oxfam reference will be given until

we have that database. No reference

1:18:241:18:28

is going out.

Of the manager who

gave the reference, for clarity, was

1:18:281:18:35

one of the group that had been

dismissed.

Could be just go back to

1:18:351:18:44

the 2011 report that you were

briefed on when you took over? One

1:18:441:18:52

of the recommendations of that

report was that all regional

1:18:521:18:58

management teams were to review

learnings from Haiti and consider

1:18:581:19:03

potential risk countries and further

action needed and that was meant to

1:19:031:19:06

be carried out in December 2011.

Where you briefed that that was one

1:19:061:19:12

of the results that came out that

investigation?

I wasn't briefed

1:19:121:19:22

specifically on that. I was told all

necessary follow-up actions had been

1:19:221:19:27

taken at country and regional level

and that central action such as the

1:19:271:19:34

setting up of the safeguarding team

and the whistle-blowing line had

1:19:341:19:36

been carried out, so it wasn't that

maybe thing was a specific on that

1:19:361:19:42

recommendation, but the sense that

this had been appropriately followed

1:19:421:19:45

up was the sense that I was very

clearly getting.

So has there ever

1:19:451:19:53

been an organisation wide review of

potential risk countries? If so,

1:19:531:19:59

what are they?

We have been well

aware of the high risk countries and

1:19:591:20:02

we have tried to put extra work into

them. They tend to be the countries

1:20:021:20:07

with the highest level of conflict

and destabilisation of Government

1:20:071:20:11

and civil authority. So at the

moment, places like the Democratic

1:20:111:20:17

Republic of the Congo and South

Sudan in that very high risk level.

1:20:171:20:24

Any country where you have an

immediate natural disaster is always

1:20:241:20:28

a high risk because it is people

who, like in Haiti, are people who

1:20:281:20:35

have had their lives traumatised and

so we try to put protection teams in

1:20:351:20:39

at an early stage of our response to

make sure we work on the practical

1:20:391:20:43

front and safety fund the same time.

-- safety front.

Another

1:20:431:20:54

recommendation is that headquarter

senior staff should arrange meetings

1:20:541:20:58

with female staff only were they

explore issues of culture and ways

1:20:581:21:03

of working and any problems. Does

that happen?

If I could answer that,

1:21:031:21:09

as part of my induction to Oxfam, I

have done to visits, one to

1:21:091:21:14

Pakistan. It was made clear that one

of the things I should do was have

1:21:141:21:19

this meeting with female only staff.

I did it in both cases. My

1:21:191:21:23

predecessor didn't religiously. --

did it religiously. It is about

1:21:231:21:29

building trust as much as anything

else and giving people an

1:21:291:21:34

opportunity, giving people a voice,

giving women a safe place to report

1:21:341:21:37

these are given to -- or give

indications.

By all senior female

1:21:371:21:51

staff.

It is very important is done

by the women.

It was happening by

1:21:511:21:59

the time I joined in 2013. It's

something my predecessor did and

1:21:591:22:03

other senior staff have done so it

was in place by 2013, it wasn't

1:22:031:22:08

something I had to get involved in

starting.

I want to ask for a

1:22:081:22:16

confirmation about the references

you give. It's common practice that

1:22:161:22:21

references are shown or unavailable

to the employee who is seeking them

1:22:211:22:24

to go on to another job. Is that

Oxfam's practice, that the

1:22:241:22:29

unavailable to your employees --

that they are available to your

1:22:291:22:35

employees?

I'll have to get back to

you on the universality of that but

1:22:351:22:39

don't think it is Donald practice.

In other words, if I am asked for a

1:22:391:22:43

reference, I feel no obligation to

show it to the individual and of

1:22:431:22:47

something is being shown to the

individual, I would expect that to

1:22:471:22:50

have been agreed and shared with the

person to whom you're giving the

1:22:501:22:53

reference. So it is not standard

practice.

So you can be completely

1:22:531:22:59

honest in your references but you're

not, because you allow people to

1:22:591:23:04

leave and move on to other jobs even

though they are questionably

1:23:041:23:10

perpetrators of sexual violence

against women and girls.

I think the

1:23:101:23:16

adventure describing where in 2011,

were Oxfam gave a certificate of

1:23:161:23:22

service. It should have gone beyond

that.

I'm not talking just about

1:23:221:23:27

that, I'm talking about others.

The

note actually says that the

1:23:271:23:34

statement of service that was given

in 2011 said we cannot complete the

1:23:341:23:42

form you asked us to complete. It

says for legal reasons, we cannot

1:23:421:23:48

say more. That's the note that I

just got. It then said he served

1:23:481:23:55

from 2010 to 2014 but what I had

insured with you previously was that

1:23:551:24:00

statement that this was actually for

legal reasons.

Were Oxfam's internal

1:24:001:24:11

investigation included in 2011, the

statement to the public was vague.

1:24:111:24:17

Was it a cover-up or was it head in

the sand?

I can't give you the

1:24:171:24:27

thinking of each individual. I can

tell you what is being recorded and

1:24:271:24:30

what we now know. Oxfam was trying

to deliver the programme of

1:24:301:24:36

desperately needed assistance to 1

million people, it was a huge

1:24:361:24:40

programme with 500 staff and I

believe that in making the decisions

1:24:401:24:45

at the time, my predecessors would

have looked at the balance of being

1:24:451:24:52

proactive and actually saying, we

got this wrong, wanting to reassure

1:24:521:24:55

the public that money that should

have been spent on beneficiaries had

1:24:551:25:00

not been defrauded and carry on

delivering that programme. I don't

1:25:001:25:11

defend that decision but I believe

those would have been the reason

1:25:111:25:13

that were primarily behind it at the

time. I also need to say that Oxfam

1:25:131:25:20

believed wrongly it was being

proactive in that not every

1:25:201:25:25

organisation chooses to go out and

tell the public about something

1:25:251:25:28

they've got badly wrong. That's not

an excuse, but I suspect that the

1:25:281:25:36

motivation was actually the power of

delivery of what Oxfam was trying to

1:25:361:25:39

do for 1 million people in desperate

need.

I appreciate your comments but

1:25:391:25:45

from our point of view, does it not

the click Oxfam is more interested

1:25:451:25:49

in protecting its own brand than

protecting vulnerable women and

1:25:491:25:54

girls?

It may look like that, I

can't do anything other than I think

1:25:541:25:57

it was wrong but I actually think

that the first thought in the minds

1:25:571:26:02

of my colleagues at the time would

actually have been protecting the

1:26:021:26:07

delivery of assistance to people who

were living in poverty. That money

1:26:071:26:12

had already been raised for Haiti.

It was really important that it was

1:26:121:26:17

well spent so I repeat, I don't

think they made the right call, but

1:26:171:26:23

I believe the call was made in good

faith at the time.

We've got a

1:26:231:26:31

number of further questions and we

are running overtime.

Do you use

1:26:311:26:39

your public affairs companies when

you talk about branding?

Not

1:26:391:26:46

normally. We will use companies that

help us with creation of particular

1:26:461:26:52

advertising at giving fund for -- at

a particular time for fundraising

1:26:521:27:00

but we have people in to manage our

operations.

Do you perceive the way

1:27:001:27:06

you have to bid for Government

funding and to donors and members of

1:27:061:27:11

the British public as a disincentive

for being open and transparent

1:27:111:27:15

because of your reputation?

Oxfam

has tried to be open and

1:27:151:27:22

transparent, it hasn't tried hard

enough and we haven't always

1:27:221:27:26

succeeded but far more than ten

years, well before 2007, Oxfam has

1:27:261:27:30

actually published a list of

incidents in our annual report. Not

1:27:301:27:38

many organisations do that. We've

shared details data or data with

1:27:381:27:44

regulators. That all of our

obligation. We need to go further

1:27:441:27:49

and I suspect many times there is a

difficult question about how much do

1:27:491:27:53

we say and what will the impact be?

What I can reassure you is that

1:27:531:27:58

Caroline as chair has said

explicitly we will never allow

1:27:581:28:02

Oxfam's reputation to be put ahead

of our absolute commitment to

1:28:021:28:08

deliver our mission.

I was going to

ask you, what more do you think the

1:28:081:28:15

trustees should have done

specifically in 2011? In the

1:28:151:28:20

response to the scandal at the time?

As I said, I start from the presence

1:28:201:28:28

that secrecy is an anathema to trust

and transparency is a key tool to

1:28:281:28:35

rooting out the sort of behaviour

and changing the values of the

1:28:351:28:41

organisation, and I think it has a

value beyond the accountability

1:28:411:28:43

value in terms of culture change. In

2011, I think it should have been

1:28:431:28:49

made clear that the allegations were

about prostitution and that she had

1:28:491:28:53

been clear in the report to the

Charity commission and in the report

1:28:531:28:56

to DFID and in the press release. It

should essentially have been more

1:28:561:29:04

explicit.

One of the things that

came out last week was the use of

1:29:041:29:12

prostitution in contracts because of

Civil Liberties. Slightly bizarre in

1:29:121:29:17

my view. Is there nothing in the

contract that would effectively

1:29:171:29:25

covered that? The two things that

DFID does is talking about tackling

1:29:251:29:30

global poverty. So that would have

covered that?

1:29:301:29:40

We do have that cattle and it should

have covered it. It is absolutely

1:29:401:29:44

clear that the behaviour at the time

was absolutely contrary to Oxfam's

1:29:441:29:50

code of conduct.

So would you say

that the use of prostitutes in

1:29:501:29:53

conflict or disaster zones, because

they are the wider sense the

1:29:531:29:58

beneficiaries as we were talking

about earlier would automatically be

1:29:581:30:01

against the contract?

It is implicit

in the code of conduct.

It wasn't at

1:30:011:30:08

the time?

Not in that wording but it

was in the sense that it was

1:30:081:30:13

anything that is exploitative, and

all of these relationships are

1:30:131:30:19

exploitative, we fully accept that.

And that is why we should not have

1:30:191:30:21

accepted the resignation of the

individuals. In two cases we had no

1:30:211:30:26

choice, they literally disappeared.

But we should still have completed

1:30:261:30:29

the hearing and found them culpable

and that is the practice that we now

1:30:291:30:34

have.

Was that another example of

someone misspeaking when they said

1:30:341:30:39

that it wasn't in there because of

civil liberties when the report came

1:30:391:30:43

out and said that prostitution was

not explicitly forbidden in the

1:30:431:30:48

contract was not to offend the

employees civil liberties?

I think

1:30:481:30:54

we have two things there. The code

of conduct has always said

1:30:541:30:58

exploitative relationships are

absolutely credited. The code of

1:30:581:31:05

conduct did not see the use of

prostitutes explicitly was. What we

1:31:051:31:10

should have used that issue of

bringing Oxfam into disrepute, power

1:31:101:31:14

relations, all those other

dimensions, and we could have done

1:31:141:31:17

that without worrying about legal

jurisdictions.

Can I ask you to

1:31:171:31:24

comment on this aspect.

The use of

prostitutes in conditions of poverty

1:31:241:31:32

and helplessness and conflict is

exploitation. It is abuse. And this

1:31:321:31:39

is intolerable in their

organisation. What happened to let

1:31:391:31:44

the country director Galway with

some dignity? That is wrong. It is

1:31:441:31:52

something that would not happen

today in Oxfam and it hurts me that

1:31:521:31:56

the organisation cannot be today

faced with the question about

1:31:561:32:05

whether we put our reputation, our

brand before the lives of people. A

1:32:051:32:10

reputation depends on the

relationships with the people we

1:32:101:32:14

serve and it is not helpful free

abuse the people we serve. And I

1:32:141:32:25

want to be sure that Oxfam is the

organisation, plan of action which I

1:32:251:32:28

have put out is precisely about

that. It is our top priority right

1:32:281:32:34

now. We will open their books to

investigators to tell us what we

1:32:341:32:40

need to do. It is about letting the

people who come in through

1:32:401:32:46

appropriate references. It is about

increasing money for safeguarding

1:32:461:32:50

and making sure that we do this job

properly. Chair and honourable

1:32:501:32:59

members of parliament this

organisation reaches 90 million

1:32:591:33:01

people every year in 90 countries,

most of them women trapped by war

1:33:011:33:06

and disasters. Help us to get this

right in to clean up but to keep

1:33:061:33:13

reaching people who need the British

help.

James has a follow-up

1:33:131:33:18

question.

Said there was a list of

all of the cases in the report. Was

1:33:181:33:25

that the annual report? The only

thing I saw last night was the three

1:33:251:33:28

paragraphs. Was that a different

report?

Now, we have since I believe

1:33:281:33:34

20 is -- 2007 and a summary in our

annual report which was the cases.

1:33:341:33:43

Sorry I thought it was an actual

summary.

The details get reported to

1:33:431:33:49

the relevant authorities so what we

publish is the summary number of the

1:33:491:33:54

cases.

But not a summary of the

cases.

In your statement last week

1:33:541:34:04

used book about extending the review

of the practices of recruitment and

1:34:041:34:13

monitoring and managing those people

who are employed to work in

1:34:131:34:18

challenging environments. Shouldn't

you have had that as part of your

1:34:181:34:29

review before Oxfam was exposed as

being negligent?

We should have

1:34:291:34:33

done. We believed that we had sound

recruitment systems which are very

1:34:331:34:42

occasionally fail. Now recognise

that that is not good enough and

1:34:421:34:47

that what we need is something that

goes right through the culture of

1:34:471:34:52

the whole organisation, which

includes recruitment systems and it

1:34:521:34:56

includes the commitment we have been

making to transparency. We launched

1:34:561:35:05

in November of peace offer that was

intended to help with that the whole

1:35:051:35:09

employment cycle of staff. That work

is underway and we have made a

1:35:091:35:15

commitment to report on it as soon

as it is finished. What he's done in

1:35:151:35:19

the last week is something much

bigger that looks at the different

1:35:191:35:24

strands of work and holds them

together and says is the sufficient?

1:35:241:35:27

And commit to making that public. We

have had too many people whose

1:35:271:35:31

behaviour is unacceptable, who have

been allowed to work and we have got

1:35:311:35:38

to find better ways of making sure

we don't recruit them in the first

1:35:381:35:41

place and indeed that they are

reported to the relevant

1:35:411:35:43

authorities.

And when is that review

going to report?

The first review

1:35:431:35:50

comes to our governing body in

March.

Miss Thompson would you like

1:35:501:35:55

to band on the councils -- would you

like to expand on the council?

1:35:551:36:03

Absolutely. When I arrived us chair

in October I immediately, before

1:36:031:36:08

this happened, commissioned an

external review of governance

1:36:081:36:10

because I think it is a good

practice to have external reviews

1:36:101:36:17

every three years but also because

particularly with the event creation

1:36:171:36:20

of new arrangements with Oxfam

International I thought governance

1:36:201:36:24

needed to be brought up to date.

Just a few weeks later we had the

1:36:241:36:29

initial stories in the Times about

safeguarding Sobhi immediately

1:36:291:36:34

working with the Charity commission

extended that review of governance.

1:36:341:36:37

It is an external review by a former

Charity commission member. We

1:36:371:36:43

extended to include our governance

and safeguarding. I have seen the

1:36:431:36:46

preliminary report on safeguarding,

it is making some big

1:36:461:36:49

recommendations about how we could

improve our governance. It talks

1:36:491:36:53

about the strengths as well as

weaknesses. The preliminary view is

1:36:531:37:00

coming to the council in March for

action.

On that idea of looking at

1:37:001:37:12

the recruitment of staff, I know

that there have been a number of

1:37:121:37:22

reports including for example the

sexual exploitation report, which

1:37:221:37:26

interviews a number of aid workers

about sexual abuse in the aid sector

1:37:261:37:32

over a number of years. But also

Unite the union have raised the

1:37:321:37:41

practices of short-term contracts

often mean that aid workers who are

1:37:411:37:48

the troublemakers or raise issues

are the ones who do not get their

1:37:481:37:54

contract reviewed -- renewed when is

the more established many management

1:37:541:37:57

will often be on permanent

contracts. Is that something that

1:37:571:38:01

you need to urgently look at the use

of short-term contracts may prevent

1:38:011:38:08

people people from sneaking out?

That the humanitarian organisation

1:38:081:38:14

we are committed to achieving speed

and scale when disaster strikes and

1:38:141:38:22

conflict erupts. It is true we have

a challenge of recruiting any people

1:38:221:38:32

to work on an emergency and then

they must have a short contract

1:38:321:38:34

because then they also, the

emergency ends and they have to go

1:38:341:38:39

so short-term contracts have to be

part of emergency work. The issue

1:38:391:38:44

there is about helping people who

are already vetted at least. That is

1:38:441:38:51

why it is so important that

humanitarian workers are also

1:38:511:38:55

certified, the way teachers and

doctors are certified, so that we

1:38:551:39:00

recruit from a pool of already

vetted people when there is an

1:39:001:39:04

emergency. And this is something we

are championing, this is something

1:39:041:39:07

we're putting a lot of...

Sexual

exploitation for example lists how

1:39:071:39:13

junior aid workers are being

sexually assaulted by senior

1:39:131:39:19

management in aid organisation so it

is not just about making sure the

1:39:191:39:23

short-term staff are vetted, and is

about making sure the short-term

1:39:231:39:30

staff are not the victims of some

management failure.

I think you're

1:39:301:39:36

hitting an important issue follows,

and actually also in November we

1:39:361:39:41

started it a review by an external

consultant of Oxfam Great Britain's

1:39:411:39:47

employment practices and how we

handle them and I think you're

1:39:471:39:49

absolutely right to point out that

people on short-term contracts and

1:39:491:39:53

the vulnerability they feel which

exacerbate the power relationship

1:39:531:39:57

which already exists where often

younger women feel under pressure to

1:39:571:40:02

do things for older men. Because of

the power relationship. That report

1:40:021:40:09

is coming to our March board meeting

for discussion and I will make sure

1:40:091:40:16

it covers the issue of short-term

contract because I think that is

1:40:161:40:18

really important.

You mentioned a

number of times that there are legal

1:40:181:40:24

barriers to doing some of this

checking. My understanding is that

1:40:241:40:28

you can use the DS checks for anyone

working with vulnerable people.

1:40:281:40:33

First of all, do you use devious

checking with the barring service,

1:40:331:40:41

what used to be CRB? On all of your

staff that you are sending out to

1:40:411:40:47

country? And secondly what have they

legal challenges of making sure

1:40:471:40:50

you're using those checks and that

you are reporting back to this body

1:40:501:40:56

so that then issues go on file?

If I

answer the question taking us back

1:40:561:41:03

to Haiti, we have seven staff who

are seriously culpable, none of them

1:41:031:41:07

were British. So the issue of

international verification is a real

1:41:071:41:15

challenge. For British staff in

positions of working with honourable

1:41:151:41:24

people, the BS is a central part of

the way that we work and to use the

1:41:241:41:27

example we have extended it steadily

beyond, in the UK are shop managers

1:41:271:41:33

to the supervising volunteers, we

are steadily rolling back out.

Is

1:41:331:41:40

every British person in the field

working that way?

Every British

1:41:401:41:45

person who is in a position of

directly working with vulnerable

1:41:451:41:51

people is someone who I believe

should be checked. The review

1:41:511:41:55

writing afterwards and the issuance

of how we define that. But the real

1:41:551:42:00

issue for us is we need something

that goes beyond the existence of

1:42:001:42:04

that system, as it does with social

workers and teachers. And that is

1:42:041:42:09

what we need -- we might need power

to help us but in the meantime we

1:42:091:42:14

can get our own house better in

order by trying to build this

1:42:141:42:19

humanitarian passport really need a

positive endorsement rather than

1:42:191:42:21

just an negative mark to be

recommended. In some ways we -- in

1:42:211:42:29

some things we're working with

others and in other areas we may

1:42:291:42:32

need greater help.

You alluded that

some other agencies will have been

1:42:321:42:40

cooperative forthcoming. Why would

they not be quarter of an

1:42:401:42:43

forthcoming? Who's to blame in that

lack of cooperation?

I did not say

1:42:431:42:49

that they were not cooperating, what

I wanted to say was that the process

1:42:491:42:54

of moving this was slow and I think

the big issue that was being raised

1:42:541:42:58

is due distinction. That in some

countries some of the offences in

1:42:581:43:05

our global conduct need to go and

how do you then as an employee

1:43:051:43:14

expose them for breaching her code

of conduct? These were the questions

1:43:141:43:22

that different countries have

different jurisdictions and it was

1:43:221:43:25

part, I would not want to blame

anyone, I would just that all of us

1:43:251:43:31

were slow. But now with we have to

fast-track this and we are doing

1:43:311:43:38

exactly that.

The last thing I

wanted to touch on was about the way

1:43:381:43:44

the regulation and reported to the

appropriate authorities of course. A

1:43:441:43:52

number of you mentioned about the

Charity commission being your

1:43:521:43:55

primary regulator. Do we need to

consider setting up a new regulator

1:43:551:43:59

like you have in the educational

institutions, also regularly by

1:43:591:44:04

Ofstead? Would it be your view that

maybe we need to expand and have a

1:44:041:44:10

view of looking at how effective you

are in the doing no harm part? Do we

1:44:101:44:19

need power regulation here in the UK

and how would you see that

1:44:191:44:21

happening?

That is an issue to which

we should give some thought. I would

1:44:211:44:28

say that there would be benefits and

it would give some focus and clearly

1:44:281:44:33

it also might help rebuild trust.

Against that there is a risk of

1:44:331:44:40

multiple regulators that actually

that causes confusion, things fall

1:44:401:44:44

between the cracks everywhere to do

it it would need to be done with

1:44:441:44:51

good debate.

Education charities

manage.

That might be an interesting

1:44:511:44:56

model to look at.

1:44:561:45:03

I asked you early, around reporting

to the Charity Commission.

I have

1:45:031:45:09

been sent a copy of an e-mail from

the Charity Commission to Oxfam in

1:45:091:45:15

2015 in which they say it has been

suggested there have been incidents

1:45:151:45:20

in Oxfam shops. Incidents about

fraud in charity shops but not about

1:45:201:45:24

safeguarding issues. Do you recall

that e-mail from the Charity

1:45:241:45:29

Commission and then what was done in

response to it?

I don't recall that

1:45:291:45:35

e-mail. I haven't seen that e-mail

before. What I have seen is a

1:45:351:45:41

reinforcement of Oxfam's work in

2015 in charity shops to make sure

1:45:411:45:46

not only whether systematic

reporting but there was a very

1:45:461:45:51

systematic approach to training,

vetting, upskilling senior staff and

1:45:511:46:03

systematic reporting was part of

that.

As I mentioned at the

1:46:031:46:07

beginning, we decided in her private

session early that we will be

1:46:071:46:11

conducting a full inquiry into these

matters and to reach there might be

1:46:111:46:16

at a rate that as part of that,

those who took part in the events in

1:46:161:46:26

Haiti in 2011. My summary as part of

today's evidence session, it has

1:46:261:46:31

been striking how much you have

apologised over the last two hours

1:46:311:46:34

which I think partly reflects the

scale of this scandal and therefore

1:46:341:46:38

there was a lot to apologise for

what I do appreciate the tone of the

1:46:381:46:41

evidence you have given today.

Clearly there is a set of issues

1:46:411:46:47

about what happened in 2011 and what

has happened since where Oxfam would

1:46:471:46:51

appear to have put their reputation

ahead of their beneficiaries and

1:46:511:46:55

have all said today that is

something from which you want to

1:46:551:46:57

learn and I welcome that, I welcome

the fact you have said it is about

1:46:571:47:02

deeds, not words, and it is clear

from the evidence we will explore

1:47:021:47:06

this with the other two panels, that

this is a much wider issue across

1:47:061:47:10

the sector, that there is a set of

challenges across the sector and

1:47:101:47:16

that these are not new issues and

the world has known about them for a

1:47:161:47:19

very long time. My closing comment

to you is, you have both got to get

1:47:191:47:24

your house in order and demonstrated

the British people that you're

1:47:241:47:27

getting your house in order, but

thank you for giving this evidence

1:47:271:47:30

today. If I can invite our second

panel.

1:47:301:47:43

There was a lot of ground that we

wanted to cover as the committee

1:48:341:48:38

with the previous panel. My plan at

the moment is to run this second

1:48:381:48:44

panel for probably about 25 minutes

so we would look to be taking

1:48:441:48:48

evidence from DFID at around 1:45pm.

As with our normal practice, we go

1:48:481:48:56

straight to questions -- 12:45pm. In

2002, Save the Children produced a

1:48:561:49:07

report on sexual exploitation of

women and children by aid workers

1:49:071:49:12

and peacekeepers. Save the Children

then published a further report in

1:49:121:49:19

2008, a decade ago, which came to

similar conclusions. Can you be

1:49:191:49:25

confident that Save the Children

staff have not been involved in the

1:49:251:49:27

kind of abuse we have been healing

about at Oxfam?

If I could start by

1:49:271:49:35

saying that I am utterly appalled by

the type of practices that have come

1:49:351:49:39

to light as a result of

investigative journalism, a few

1:49:391:49:43

inquiries, the work of others, both

shocked and appalled. This is an

1:49:431:49:51

issue that has been on our agenda

for a very long time. Both of those

1:49:511:49:56

reports you mentioned highlighted

the role of powerful men as

1:49:561:50:05

gatekeepers to food, to shelter and

two security. -- to security. And

1:50:051:50:14

the concerns of the people who felt

unsafe and unprotected I think what

1:50:141:50:19

has come to light over the past

couple of weeks cautions all of us

1:50:191:50:27

against it. If I sat here and told

you I thought we were doing enough,

1:50:271:50:32

that would be complacency. We are

absolutely not complacent. We had to

1:50:321:50:37

strengthen our systems across all of

our programmes and we are working to

1:50:371:50:40

do that with our colleagues in Save

the Children. We had to strengthen

1:50:401:50:45

our assistance even the UK. My

colleague Steve Reeves is head of

1:50:451:50:50

our safeguarding operation. I've

seen it argued that if you work in a

1:50:501:50:58

difficult and dangerous place, and

you should somehow be subjected to a

1:50:581:51:02

different set of rules, that the

standards should be lower. There is

1:51:021:51:05

only one rule to our organisation

and that is that you treat other

1:51:051:51:12

people as you would expect to be

treated yourself and that is the

1:51:121:51:17

standard all of us have to work

towards.

I welcome the fact you said

1:51:171:51:21

it. Do you think it is a huge

collective failure by the sector, by

1:51:211:51:25

governments, by the UN that you

published this report with the UN

1:51:251:51:29

agency 16 years ago and this was

discussed at the world of

1:51:291:51:37

humanitarian summit in 2016, but it

feels as though it has taken the

1:51:371:51:44

Times and other media outlets to

really focus this attention.

I was

1:51:441:51:50

at the summit and it was widely

discussed and has been in previous

1:51:501:51:55

summits. This is a subject that is

known about. You use the word

1:51:551:52:02

collective failure and I think that

is a very important phrasing because

1:52:021:52:06

all of us as individual agencies

have to get our house in order on a

1:52:061:52:11

no excuses basis. That is my

responsibility as CEO of Save the

1:52:111:52:15

Children in the UK. The problem we

have is that if you tip poison into

1:52:151:52:22

a river, everyone who uses that

river will get affected by it. Even

1:52:221:52:28

the UK, we have very strong

screening procedures because we are

1:52:281:52:32

the children's charity -- we are a

children's charity and as a sector

1:52:321:52:40

we would benefit from legislation

established a it worked as a

1:52:401:52:42

regulated sector that we can't just

apply that in the UK. We need a

1:52:421:52:54

globalisation of the system. It is

because of the volume of people and

1:52:541:52:58

vulnerability of people we work with

that we need that system. In the

1:52:581:53:02

course of my first year of working

at Save the Children, I have had

1:53:021:53:07

cause to visit Somalia twice, Yemen,

northeast Nigeria, and it is very

1:53:071:53:17

difficult to put into words, when

you speak to someone who has been

1:53:171:53:23

uprooted from their home,

traumatised by violence,

1:53:231:53:29

impoverished, a mother who doesn't

know where their next meal of her

1:53:291:53:33

child is coming from, that is

vulnerability and that is why there

1:53:331:53:37

is only one standard we should ever

apply in our sector.

you said last

1:53:371:53:43

week that predatory paedophiles are

particularly attracted to seek out

1:53:431:53:49

this sort of work. Will you

elaborate on that?

The point I was

1:53:491:53:54

making, I'm not sure if I mentioned

predatory paedophiles, I certainly

1:53:541:53:58

mentioned predatory men who insert

themselves into positions of power

1:53:581:54:02

as gatekeepers because for those

people I have just described, the

1:54:021:54:07

person who has access, the person

who can provide you with security,

1:54:071:54:12

that is a person of of great power

and the regulatory system is surely

1:54:121:54:18

to constrain arbitrary power and

protect people from the abuse of

1:54:181:54:22

arbitrary power. It is a consistent

thing in all of the cases you have

1:54:221:54:30

mentioned.

Can you tell us the sort

of process that is followed in Save

1:54:301:54:36

the Children when there is an

allegation of sexual misconduct?

We

1:54:361:54:43

have a single reporting line that

goes straight through to designated

1:54:431:54:46

staff who are trained specifically

to deal with allegations around the

1:54:461:54:49

safety of children and those staff

will get training and supervising on

1:54:491:54:56

a weekly basis for the work that

they do and all concerns allegations

1:54:561:55:03

are reported to statutory agencies

across the UK, even law enforcement

1:55:031:55:10

-- either law enforcement or social

care or the NSPCC if it is difficult

1:55:101:55:15

to identify the child's geographical

location. We then work the special

1:55:151:55:22

agencies on the basis we do not want

to hamper their investigations. We

1:55:221:55:28

have a process where we would to

suspend individuals as soon as we

1:55:281:55:31

were cleared to do so by statutory

agencies, we would await the outcome

1:55:311:55:36

of their investigations. Once we got

the result of those investigations,

1:55:361:55:40

if there is more work we felt we

needed to do to satisfy ourselves,

1:55:401:55:44

the better the outcome, we would

conduct an internal investigation

1:55:441:55:48

but for somebody who might commit an

offence against a child, we would

1:55:481:55:55

take that very seriously.

From the

evidence we've seen about Oxfam,

1:55:551:56:01

there were two issues, one is about

the size of the team that is working

1:56:011:56:04

on safeguarding. The second is about

their access to and how easily they

1:56:041:56:12

were taken by senior people within

the organisation. Are you confident

1:56:121:56:18

you have the resources you need to

deal with these sorts of

1:56:181:56:21

allegations?

I've been in save the

chosen for just over four years. I

1:56:211:56:28

started as a sole member of staff

and they now lead a team of six,

1:56:281:56:31

three of whom are targeted

specifically on overseas and

1:56:311:56:34

humanitarian child safeguarding. I'm

a member of the corporate leadership

1:56:341:56:41

team, so I'm a relatively senior

member of the team in my own right,

1:56:411:56:45

but I report to the executive team.

I meet with them on a biweekly basis

1:56:451:56:52

for our area. Periodically, we have

people like a trustee who I meet.

1:56:521:57:01

how often would you meet the

trustee?

It depends on availability,

1:57:011:57:06

it's every five or six weeks but we

would report back if anything crops

1:57:061:57:12

up that we think is significant and

the trustee should be aware of, we

1:57:121:57:18

would make the call and have a

conversation and our trustees are

1:57:181:57:23

very responsive. I send reports to

the trustee body on a regular basis

1:57:231:57:27

and our audit committee. I find

little criticism with the way in

1:57:271:57:34

which our organisation works from

our perspective. If I have issues

1:57:341:57:42

with senior leaders, they have been

addressed and I don't have any

1:57:421:57:44

complaints about the way in which my

team are treated by senior members.

1:57:441:57:53

to draw the distinction between

predatory males and predatory

1:57:531:57:58

paedophiles, with your work in the

UK context with Save the Children,

1:57:581:58:06

would you realise there is a

propensity for people to apply to

1:58:061:58:13

certain jobs because it gives them

access? And have you got any

1:58:131:58:18

evidence to say that Oxfam is the

tip of the iceberg and that actually

1:58:181:58:21

there predatory paedophiles is

actively seeking work in war-torn

1:58:211:58:30

countries because they can access

prostitution? Prostitution seems

1:58:301:58:43

like paving over it, it is people

who are underage, it is paedophilia.

1:58:431:58:50

Is this systematic?

Is clear over

the course of media revelations that

1:58:501:58:57

sexual abuse of children in the UK

is far more prevalent than ever.

1:58:571:59:00

People might have thought before.

The national crime agency talks

1:59:001:59:05

about one in 35 adult males in the

UK having some form of paedophilic

1:59:051:59:09

tendency. It is research that talks

about 1% of the adult population of

1:59:091:59:17

men having interest in children

sexually. A cause for the most

1:59:171:59:25

vulnerable children should be

operating with the major those

1:59:251:59:27

people will seek out opportunities

to access children and will seek out

1:59:271:59:31

access to children in places where

jurisdictions are weaker, where

1:59:311:59:36

regulations are put and therefore it

is the job of organisations to up

1:59:361:59:39

their game to meet the gap between

regulation in jurisdictions and the

1:59:391:59:46

risk that may be posed to children.

I started my career in the UK system

1:59:461:59:55

with safeguarding, which were many

people may criticise the way it

1:59:551:59:59

operates, it gives a solid framework

to organisations around the way it

1:59:592:00:03

gets its staff, the provision of

local authority designated officers

2:00:032:00:08

and local authorities where

employers are obliged to report

2:00:082:00:11

concerns. When you start working on

a global scale, that framework is

2:00:112:00:15

absent and what we have been doing

over the last two or three years is

2:00:152:00:20

trying essentially to create an

element of that framework in the way

2:00:202:00:23

we do our business. We think there

is a lot of best practice and

2:00:232:00:28

underworld saw our work is about

creating an equivalent of the system

2:00:282:00:33

on a global scale and resetting and

innovating the way we tackle these

2:00:332:00:38

things, it is critical, but there

are people with a sexual interest in

2:00:382:00:44

children who actively seek out the

opportunity to work with children.

2:00:442:00:48

It's a very considerable problem. We

know there are large numbers of

2:00:482:00:51

those people and we know that they

will seek out access into

2:00:512:00:55

organisations that appear to be

weaker and work in places where the

2:00:552:00:58

protection for children appear to be

put.

2:00:582:01:06

One in 35 had paedophilic

tendencies. Are we saying there can

2:01:062:01:12

be more in the development community

for the same reasons? As you would

2:01:122:01:19

expect there to be more than that in

volunteering youth groups or

2:01:192:01:24

applying for roles were vulnerable

available.

Certainly that is a

2:01:242:01:30

figure that the National Crime

Agency has talked about. One in 35

2:01:302:01:33

adult males. They also talk about

50,000 adults in the UK who may be

2:01:332:01:40

accessing children on a regular

basis. We are trying to establish

2:01:402:01:46

the nature of the scale of the risk

to children in the UK. We do know it

2:01:462:01:50

is significant. We know that a

number of people target

2:01:502:01:53

organisations and that the level of

abuse reported, as far as we are

2:01:532:02:04

aware, is even in a developed

context. Five to 7% of child abuse

2:02:042:02:11

will ever be reported at all. That

is in the context where we would

2:02:112:02:14

hope police would be supportive,

social care, health services. We

2:02:142:02:21

then move into jurisdictions where

that appears to be largely absent.

2:02:212:02:26

It becomes even more challenging. I

think it is almost beyond doubt that

2:02:262:02:32

there is more abuse appearing then

we know about. I think the message

2:02:322:02:36

to organisations should be that we

should behave as though this abuse

2:02:362:02:39

is happening, even if we see no

evidence of it, because we know it

2:02:392:02:45

almost certainly is and we should

behave as if it is happening, even

2:02:452:02:48

if we see no direct evidence.

I want to talk about some of the

2:02:482:02:54

proposals you have made to the

Secretary of State. We need to look

2:02:542:02:58

at some of these numbers. There are

clearly more to come out. We can't

2:02:582:03:03

look at the proposals without a

context of the size of the problem.

2:03:032:03:08

I have got a horrible feeling we're

really just scratching the surface

2:03:082:03:11

of this problem. On the initial

proposals you have brought forward,

2:03:112:03:16

what are the key proposals within

that that you think are absolutely

2:03:162:03:19

essential?

We have a number of

proposals. There are some which are

2:03:192:03:29

achievable over the shorter term,

something is slightly longer term.

2:03:292:03:33

Kevin rightly as pointed out the

fact we have a system in the UK

2:03:332:03:36

about how we regulate criminal

records checks. One of the committee

2:03:362:03:42

members asked our colleagues in

Oxfam about that. The regulations

2:03:422:03:48

around access to criminal records

checks in the UK are very complex.

2:03:482:03:51

They are complicated in a of ways.

And they work primarily on the basis

2:03:512:03:58

for how intense and frequent the

contact between children and

2:03:582:04:01

professionals is. And the real

struggle that we would have is that

2:04:012:04:05

we have staff with contact with

children over short periods of time.

2:04:052:04:11

We found the regulatory environment

around DVS checks quite challenging.

2:04:112:04:15

We use the system quite actively. We

spent in excess of £100,000 last

2:04:152:04:20

year. Stipulating that working in an

agency like ours is regulated

2:04:202:04:28

activity, regardless of the level of

access to children, it is always

2:04:282:04:35

regulated activity. The amount of

transactional cost involved in

2:04:352:04:41

trying to assess the level of check

involved individual staff is quite

2:04:412:04:47

astonishing. That would be a

short-term peace we think would be

2:04:472:04:49

relevant. We did work with Interpol

over a couple of years attempting to

2:04:492:04:56

establish a global criminal records

chest -- checking system. We part

2:04:562:05:01

funded a feasibility study to get us

over the line. That stalled at the

2:05:012:05:04

Interpol and in terms of their

willingness to deal with some of the

2:05:042:05:09

administrative and financial aspects

of that. We think those issues could

2:05:092:05:13

be overcome relatively simply.

If I could just add very briefly to

2:05:132:05:23

that, I've heard the argument over

the past few days that the

2:05:232:05:28

humanitarian passport system that we

and other agencies have advocated,

2:05:282:05:31

that it would be terribly

constipated and difficult to put in

2:05:312:05:35

operation because we don't actually

have a global multinational

2:05:352:05:38

framework for doing it. My short

answer to that problem is create

2:05:382:05:42

one. This is clearly a confiscated

problem. But the consequences of not

2:05:422:05:50

dealing with it, in human terms, are

utterly appalling, leaving aside the

2:05:502:05:54

reputational effects. What I would

say just in addition to the point

2:05:542:06:01

that Steve has made is every year we

reach around 20 to 22 million

2:06:012:06:11

children, providing life-saving

attritional interventions, health

2:06:112:06:13

support, educational support. If we

get this one thing wrong, this one

2:06:132:06:21

area of regulator except the wrong,

the whole house of cards comes down.

2:06:212:06:26

-- this one area of regulator

activity. I have a thousand people

2:06:262:06:32

are coming to our office in

Faringdon every day, dedicated

2:06:322:06:35

professionals who want us to be out

there on the front line working with

2:06:352:06:38

children. This is a condition for

making that possible.

2:06:382:06:46

A couple of quick things. We are

talking about vulnerable women and

2:06:462:06:49

girls, mainly. Is there any evidence

of young boys being abused as well?

2:06:492:06:56

And are they being abused by men or

women? You talked about having been

2:06:562:07:06

in the organisation for a few years,

not Ridgers length of time. How many

2:07:062:07:10

women have come forward to say they

have been abused in that period of

2:07:102:07:16

time? And are the women mainly

people who are the vulnerable women

2:07:162:07:21

you are trying to help, or are they

within the staff body, who are also

2:07:212:07:25

being abused by predatory men?

The

first part, globally, it's pretty

2:07:252:07:36

clear that girls and young women are

most frequently victims of sexual

2:07:362:07:40

avoidance. Di spoke -- violence. We

do see evidence of boys and young

2:07:402:07:49

men being exploited in the same way.

As far as we can tell from the

2:07:492:07:52

research available, this is abuse

largely perpetrated by men, although

2:07:522:07:58

we shouldn't discount the

possibility that somebody engaging

2:07:582:08:04

in this behaviour is largely

perpetrated by men. We do see

2:08:042:08:10

evidence of boys being harmed. There

is some evidence about crossover

2:08:102:08:13

offending, the importance of gender

for victims -- of victims for a

2:08:132:08:18

certain kind of offenders. I don't

think that is terribly significant

2:08:182:08:22

in terms of how an agency might

respond. In terms of people coming

2:08:222:08:29

forward, my role, very clearly, in

the organisation is about the

2:08:292:08:35

protection of children. My role is

that children are positive

2:08:352:08:42

experiences of the organisation. I

don't have direct responsibility for

2:08:422:08:46

the management of allegations that

may come to light about adults

2:08:462:08:50

harming other adults. That would be

a leadership responsibility for

2:08:502:08:51

Kevin.

Do you want to answer that specific

2:08:512:08:56

issue?

What I can tell you, I don't

want to give you incorrect numbers,

2:08:562:09:04

so this is very tentative. We're

reporting to Dfid on Monday a full

2:09:042:09:11

breakdown of our figures. On the

child safeguarding challenges, we

2:09:112:09:17

have 193 cases in 2016,

comprehensive data. Around 53 of

2:09:172:09:27

those were taken to full

investigation. Around 20 of those

2:09:272:09:30

cases, the files were handed over to

the police. And 11 people were

2:09:302:09:34

dismissed. The thing that is always

difficult about these exercises is

2:09:342:09:40

to know whether you are cutting the

tip of the iceberg or you are

2:09:402:09:44

catching the iceberg itself. --

catching the tip of the iceberg. The

2:09:442:09:50

system we have to build is about

creating a culture in every single

2:09:502:09:54

one of our offices, where people

feel safe enough to come forward and

2:09:542:09:57

report on these matters.

What is the

split, would you say, between

2:09:572:10:04

vulnerable women and girls in

different countries, compared with

2:10:042:10:09

women working for your organisation

who are being abused, or there are

2:10:092:10:15

many were trying to abuse them

within your system?

We also have

2:10:152:10:22

investigations on sexual harassment.

I'm not just talking about Save the

2:10:222:10:26

Children UK. This is as part of Save

the Children International. I know

2:10:262:10:30

this is a bit confusing. It is the

programme delivery platform, which

2:10:302:10:33

we share with Save the Children from

the United States, Scandinavia Omid

2:10:332:10:41

Germany, Australia and others. In

those investigations last year we

2:10:412:10:47

had 35 cases reported. Again, please

take these numbers as tentative. We

2:10:472:10:52

had 35 cases reported. From memory,

19 of them resulted in staff

2:10:522:10:59

dismissals. I don't remember the

number of files handed over to

2:10:592:11:06

police. It gives you some sense.

Thank you. Some questions about the

2:11:062:11:16

suggestions you have made. In terms

of regulated activity, if we brought

2:11:162:11:23

that in, how quick could

organisations such as yourselves

2:11:232:11:28

then implemented to ensure that all

your workers were checked and you

2:11:282:11:32

were abiding by the regulated

activity requirements under DVS?

2:11:322:11:39

From our perspective that would

happen very promptly. We criminal

2:11:392:11:43

records check every single member of

staff in our organisation. Regulated

2:11:432:11:50

activity would provide a single

level.

Would you be able to

2:11:502:12:00

implement the enhanced level within

a month if we introduced it?

2:12:002:12:05

Relatively short order, yes. You

said there was some financial

2:12:052:12:12

stalling. Do you know what kind of

order of money that Interpol... Have

2:12:122:12:21

you heard any kind of figure?

There

have been some conversations about

2:12:212:12:29

how the systems might be financed.

That may be a significant technology

2:12:292:12:37

spend. The real crux for me came at

some of the stakeholder meetings.

2:12:372:12:44

From our perspective we spend well

in excess of £100,000 a year on

2:12:442:12:48

checking her starve. But the system

only works if a small Ugandan

2:12:482:12:53

orphanage can also afford that

check. So actually just simply

2:12:532:12:59

dividing that cost by the people you

think might use it is not a workable

2:12:592:13:03

way to ensure that the very

smallest...

If the British gum gave

2:13:032:13:13

a donation for ten years to run that

system, would that be realistic? We

2:13:132:13:20

need to take a lead.

Certainly. We

had some set up costs that we may be

2:13:202:13:27

able to provide. Interpol may be

able to provide a figure quite

2:13:272:13:32

rapidly at this point.

If I may,

there are two parts to this. There

2:13:322:13:40

is a part that the UK government can

lead and drive, which I think is

2:13:402:13:44

what you are getting at. There is

also a broader international

2:13:442:13:49

leadership role. We need some sort

of international framework. The UK

2:13:492:13:56

government, I believe, could play a

critical role in helping establish

2:13:562:13:58

that. There are a number of vehicles

that could be considered. For

2:13:582:14:05

example, as an administrative

entity. We put a proposal for

2:14:052:14:12

discussion into Dfid towards the end

of last year. That was on the idea

2:14:122:14:16

of a centre of global excellence on

safeguarding.

2:14:162:14:25

Properly constructed, that centres

could potentially help to oversee a

2:14:252:14:29

local database but more critically,

it could insert people into

2:14:292:14:34

difficult areas because if you think

of the crisis, he has 800,000

2:14:342:14:41

people, a movement of people bigger

than the city of Newcastle from one

2:14:412:14:45

place to another in the space of a

couple of months. What happens when

2:14:452:14:51

that crisis erupts is we sent in our

water people, the people providing

2:14:512:15:00

education, and there is no one of

the moment is really surging in a

2:15:002:15:05

safeguarding team that can ensure

there is a proper level of

2:15:052:15:07

protection. We would have to pool

our resources as a sector to do this

2:15:072:15:14

effectively and if pulling is what

it takes, that's what we need to do

2:15:142:15:22

-- pooling.

What you think the wider

implications for the aids sector

2:15:222:15:27

following these scandals? -- aid

sector.

The journalists who brought

2:15:272:15:41

these stories to light have turned

the light on horrible stuff which we

2:15:412:15:44

as a sector have to take

responsibility for as have to take

2:15:442:15:48

responsibility for fixing. Our first

order of priority is we need to

2:15:482:15:53

recognise that this is not the

occasional bad apple we're dealing

2:15:532:15:57

with, this is a structural and

systemic problem that we have to

2:15:572:16:01

deal with through proper

integration. There is a wider set of

2:16:012:16:08

damage to the trust that UK public

put in us to deliver on incredibly

2:16:082:16:15

jealous population in the UK to some

of the most vulnerable people in the

2:16:152:16:20

world and trust is our most precious

commodity. If that goes, and ability

2:16:202:16:25

to play the linking global be

damaged. There is an issue of trust

2:16:252:16:29

with the sector and the Department

for International Development. All

2:16:292:16:33

of these things have to be the belt.

One of the things that concerns me

2:16:332:16:39

is that I have seen the argument

surfacing that this is now all

2:16:392:16:47

about... And I think this is an

opportunistic, misplaced way of

2:16:472:16:52

looking at the problem. This is a

real problem, it is systemic and

2:16:522:16:59

large-scale and we have to fix it by

duty age -- but UK aid is the most

2:16:592:17:07

effective and accountable aid in the

world. It makes enormous difference

2:17:072:17:11

to children all around the world

working with us and other agencies.

2:17:112:17:16

We cannot afford to allow this issue

to pollute the wider discussion

2:17:162:17:23

about the role of the UK in aid

leadership.

As a follow-up, it took

2:17:232:17:31

external reporters to largely

exposes this scandal. -- expose this

2:17:312:17:42

scandal. Do you think the aid sector

as a whole is capable of bringing

2:17:422:17:46

its house into order?

If I didn't

believe that, I wouldn't be working

2:17:462:17:53

in the sector. Our organisation is

staffed by incredibly professional

2:17:532:18:02

and committed people. We can resolve

this problem. I know there is a view

2:18:022:18:10

that the sector is being given a

hard time by the media and that in

2:18:102:18:14

some way we are victims. It is only

one victim in this and that is the

2:18:142:18:19

people who have at their lives

shattered I some of these practices.

2:18:192:18:24

The other victims of the people who

lose trust that prevents us doing

2:18:242:18:29

what we need to do so I am totally

convinced that we can fix it and I'm

2:18:292:18:34

totally committed to Save the

Children playing a leadership role

2:18:342:18:41

in that.

I was concerned when you

said "We could do with legislation",

2:18:412:18:48

it sounded like abdication of

responsibility but you have gone

2:18:482:18:54

back on that. But you could you talk

about... Clearly at the UN are going

2:18:542:19:05

to play a big role and clearly DFID

should stop giving money to any

2:19:052:19:09

organisation that doesn't move in

the direction we wanted to, but

2:19:092:19:13

surely the answer is never to wait

for legislation. What can Save the

2:19:132:19:18

Children do now, immediately, and

move on to protect yourself from the

2:19:182:19:24

critique that you're abdicating

responsibility by saying it is

2:19:242:19:28

Government, it is legislation, it is

too complex, it is something for the

2:19:282:19:32

United Nations? God help us if we're

going to have to wait for the United

2:19:322:19:36

Nations!

That couple to -- that

cavalry might take some time to

2:19:362:19:43

arrive. Can I be clear, I did not

say waiting for legislation. What we

2:19:432:19:48

need to do as a sector is to act now

with urgency. I believe there is a

2:19:482:19:59

great responsibility on the major

NGOs in this country to come

2:19:592:20:06

together and start framing practical

solutions. The legislation we have

2:20:062:20:13

mentioned about regulated employment

would help. It would strengthen one

2:20:132:20:18

part of the system but there is

plenty of other things we can do,

2:20:182:20:22

both to get our own house is in

order. One thing we're doing at Save

2:20:222:20:29

the Children UK with our

international partners in

2:20:292:20:31

strengthening our safeguarding

systems across the world. We want a

2:20:312:20:37

focal point in the 125 countries

that we operate in to Save the

2:20:372:20:45

Children International. That has to

be strengthened. We need to come up

2:20:452:20:48

with ideas. That is our job. We

obviously really appreciate the idea

2:20:482:20:55

is that you are generating, the

inquiry that you mentioned, but we

2:20:552:21:00

can't sit around and wait for summit

else to come and solve this problem.

2:21:002:21:04

This is our problem. We need to

generate the ideas for solving it

2:21:042:21:07

and I think they're are good ideas

out there. We have tried some of

2:21:072:21:11

them. The challenge is to move very

quickly and to build the coalitions

2:21:112:21:14

that we need to and Bond is a

critical part of that.

Thank you,

2:21:142:21:24

please feel free to stay to listen

to the final panel.

2:21:242:21:37

Thank you for joining us and for

your patience, we are running behind

2:22:032:22:07

schedule. Our usual practice, we

invite you to introduce yourself

2:22:072:22:12

when you first answer a question.

Nearly two years ago, I went to the

2:22:122:22:20

wild humanitarian summit in Istanbul

where I learned from a committee, a

2:22:202:22:26

panel that was talking, that sexual

abuse was happening by NGOs by UN

2:22:262:22:34

peacekeeping forces as well, which

is another issue, but it was common

2:22:342:22:41

knowledge but nobody really knew how

to deal with it, so I came back and

2:22:412:22:44

wrote to the Secretary of State at

the time saying that DFID is

2:22:442:22:49

respected around the world. We

should be leading this, an

2:22:492:22:53

international register should be

setup for people who in the sector.

2:22:532:22:59

I got a letter back from the civil

servants saying that actually, this

2:22:592:23:07

is just too difficult. It was in the

too difficult to do box and we

2:23:072:23:12

couldn't tackle it. We had a similar

letter back after our chairman wrote

2:23:122:23:19

on the previous committee basically

saying the same sort of thing. We

2:23:192:23:24

have heard from Oxfam and Save the

Children. Save the Children appear

2:23:242:23:29

to be doing this, Oxfam say they're

going to do it. Why do you think

2:23:292:23:33

that we cannot do this? Have a

global register for aid workers? It

2:23:332:23:39

is clearly absolutely necessary. If

the money we spend is going to

2:23:392:23:44

protect vulnerable women and girls

in incredibly difficult

2:23:442:23:49

circumstances, I am sure this is

happening in the Rohingya refugee

2:23:492:24:00

camps and other places around the

world. Why do you believe DFID

2:24:002:24:03

cannot start a global register and

hold its other people can do the

2:24:032:24:07

same sort of service as the

safeguarding services do currently?

2:24:072:24:15

It is a no-brainer, we have to do

it.

My name is Matthew Rycroft, I am

2:24:152:24:26

the permanent secretary at DFID.

I

understand you are new to the job so

2:24:262:24:32

it is slightly unfair but you bring

a fresh view to this so I think it

2:24:322:24:35

is fair to ask you these questions.

All of your questions are there and

2:24:352:24:40

I look forward to answering all of

them today and in future. Let me

2:24:402:24:43

begin by saying how shocking these

issues are and these incidents have

2:24:432:24:48

been and let me agree with you that

this is an issue that the United

2:24:482:24:52

Kingdom must lead on in terms of

this response and that is what the

2:24:522:24:56

Secretary of State for International

Development is determined to do. She

2:24:562:25:00

has written to all of the UK-based

charities to make sure and to tell

2:25:002:25:05

us what their systems are to put in

place all of their safeguarding. We

2:25:052:25:10

are doing something similar with all

of our partners around the world. We

2:25:102:25:16

are going to be working with the

United Nations, who have had a

2:25:162:25:21

long-running history in relation to

allegations of sexual exploitation

2:25:212:25:24

and abuse in relation to

peacekeeping and we need to learn

2:25:242:25:28

from that. We need to work with the

private sector and other Government

2:25:282:25:32

departments around the British

Government for development. This is

2:25:322:25:39

a huge issue for the sector and one

of the things the Secretary of State

2:25:392:25:45

has announced is a summit on the 5th

of March with the charity sector to

2:25:452:25:48

look at the way ahead and I think

central to that summit will be an

2:25:482:25:52

analysis of the issue which you

brought back from the eastern bill

2:25:522:25:57

world humanitarian summit and which

we very much hope the sector itself

2:25:572:26:05

will put forward. Nothing is too

difficult any more, even if it ever

2:26:052:26:09

was. This is a moment where we need

to be looking with fresh eyes and

2:26:092:26:13

also with experienced eyes. Everyone

coming together, whether the adding

2:26:132:26:21

Government, the private sector, an

organisation, all of us, to make

2:26:212:26:24

sure we root out this evil and that

something good can come from the

2:26:242:26:28

crisis, which has been a breach of

trust for the people of Haiti and

2:26:282:26:31

countries like that but also for the

people of the United Kingdom who

2:26:312:26:36

give so generously to charities like

Oxfam.

I think the current Secretary

2:26:362:26:44

of State has done a fantastic job

given she is new to it and she has

2:26:442:26:49

had to go out there and say some

pretty tough things that I think she

2:26:492:26:52

has done a good job on that but what

I have been disappointed about is

2:26:522:26:55

the previous Secretary of State did

raise his issues with the Department

2:26:552:27:00

and she was asked not to raise them,

not to bring them in speeches but

2:27:002:27:06

she continued to do so anyway which

I think was good that she did,

2:27:062:27:11

particularly in terms of the UN. We

know that peacekeepers have been

2:27:112:27:15

raping women in vulnerable

situations. You said you had been

2:27:152:27:21

working with them. What exactly are

you going to do to be able to stop

2:27:212:27:25

women being raped and abused and

children in very vulnerable

2:27:252:27:30

situations? Everybody knows it is

happening, it seems, so it appears,

2:27:302:27:41

"oh, that's OK then," but there must

be a system because the world is a

2:27:412:27:49

much smaller place now. We need to

work world to safeguard these very

2:27:492:27:52

vulnerable people so what is DFID

Ashley going to do to stop the

2:27:522:27:57

sexual abuse through the UN?

The

Secretary of State is leading this

2:27:572:28:04

agenda and her predecessor did a

good job of raising this issue and I

2:28:042:28:08

remember from my previous job at the

United Nations as the British

2:28:082:28:11

ambassador in New York that it was a

big theme of the UN General Assembly

2:28:112:28:16

last September and that was because

of the previous Secretary of State

2:28:162:28:19

for International Development. The

United Nations has long had a huge

2:28:192:28:26

problem with sexual exploitation and

abuse amongst peacekeepers and the

2:28:262:28:31

UK has been helping to lead the way

in response to that so first of all,

2:28:312:28:35

the UK has doubled our contribution

to UN peacekeeping in the last

2:28:352:28:38

couple of years and we make sure

that every single one of the British

2:28:382:28:42

peacekeepers who goes to joint UN

missions has proper training on how

2:28:422:28:47

to prevent sexual exploitation and

abuse. We also offer training to

2:28:472:28:52

other contingents from other

countries who perhaps have less of a

2:28:522:28:55

tradition in this area than we

ourselves do and we are working with

2:28:552:28:58

the United Nations itself to make

sure that one part of the family of

2:28:582:29:04

organisations is able to spread best

practice to another part. One thing

2:29:042:29:08

about the UN is it such a large

bureaucracy that even if there is

2:29:082:29:14

good bureaucracy, that might not be

spreading to other parts of the UN

2:29:142:29:17

so what we were seeking to do with

the previous Secretary of State was

2:29:172:29:21

to bring together all the different

parts to the native nations to the

2:29:212:29:24

best.

2:29:242:29:33

We have to stop this abuse of the

most vulnerable people in the world.

2:29:332:29:40

Have Dfid completed a review?

Yes,

the work has been completed. The

2:29:402:29:52

assurances have been met and we have

gone beyond them. We will make a

2:29:522:29:56

copy available to you right away.

Excellent. I do think this is really

2:29:562:30:02

urgent. It has been going on for

years. What I fail to understand is,

2:30:022:30:10

it is, I believe, a minority of

people in the aid sector but we need

2:30:102:30:14

to root those out. What is wrong

with those minority of men that they

2:30:142:30:18

cannot keep their trousers done up?

What is wrong with these men? Do

2:30:182:30:28

they need mental health help? If

they do, let's get them some. They

2:30:282:30:34

should not be doing this. And nobody

can believe it is right.

I am not

2:30:342:30:39

going to seek to justify, explain

her excuse that behaviour. It is

2:30:392:30:45

totally inexcusable. I am not going

to go down that route. We are

2:30:452:30:50

determined to use this crisis, and

it is a crisis for the aid sector,

2:30:502:30:54

for reasons we have been hearing

about. We are determined to use this

2:30:542:30:58

crisis to get the whole of the

sector into a better shape, to root

2:30:582:31:02

out this evil wherever it occurs and

two draw on the whole of the sector

2:31:022:31:07

and beyond to get the ideas on how

best to do that.

I am encouraged to

2:31:072:31:12

hear that. I hope you move very

quickly.

2:31:122:31:17

I want to turn specifically to the

events in Haiti in 2011. What did

2:31:172:31:23

Dfid know about these events?

I am

going to ask my colleagues, Gerrard

2:31:232:31:31

and Beverley. Oxfam did bring to

David's attention at the time the

2:31:312:31:36

factor was an investigation into

misconduct by some members of staff.

2:31:362:31:39

Dfid. They wrote three letters, the

last giving us a summary of the

2:31:392:31:49

outcome of the investigation. At no

point was either the scale or the

2:31:492:31:53

severity of the allegations made

clear to our predecessors.

2:31:532:32:00

Since last Monday I have been

fighting singularly fur Dfid's

2:32:002:32:11

safeguarding unit. The second letter

Oxfam Road told us that the country

2:32:112:32:14

director had resigned and the

investigation would be concluded.

2:32:142:32:19

The third level reported on the

outcomes of that investigation,

2:32:192:32:22

saying there had been a breach of

the code of conduct of Oxfam. None

2:32:222:32:27

of this involved beneficiaries of

the misuse of any funds. We were

2:32:272:32:30

discussing earlier on the nature of

the meaning of the word beneficiary.

2:32:302:32:35

We understood it to be the people of

Haiti that the -- Oxfam were

2:32:352:32:42

fundraising for.

In July 2015,

Oxfam's former head of global

2:32:422:32:52

safeguarding contacted Justine

Greening and informed how examples

2:32:522:32:57

of sexual misconduct in Oxfam, what

was done as a result of this and how

2:32:572:33:02

was it carried out?

At this point we

can find no record of that contact.

2:33:022:33:07

We have been looking since we

received that allegation.

You think

2:33:072:33:12

that is potentially a false

allegation?

No, there is no record

2:33:122:33:16

of that.

My understanding is a

member of Parliament then wrote to

2:33:162:33:23

the Home Secretary.

We were asked

about her approach to child

2:33:232:33:29

protection policies, protecting

children between 14 and 17. In that

2:33:292:33:34

letter Justine Greening responded to

Andrew Smith, reporting how we were

2:33:342:33:38

managing our accountable grants in

terms of the absolute requirement,

2:33:382:33:42

if people see allegations and

accusations, to tell Dfid

2:33:422:33:51

immediately. That is in line with

good practice.

Priti Patel has also

2:33:512:33:59

claimed the department knew about

this. What do you have to say about

2:33:592:34:02

this?

I want to be clear about two

different things. At no point did

2:34:022:34:07

she say there were particular

members of staff who were aware of

2:34:072:34:13

particular instances of sexual

exploitation. What she has said is

2:34:132:34:17

that the department did not respond

as quickly as she wanted to push the

2:34:172:34:27

issue up the international agenda. I

know that in the end of the

2:34:272:34:30

department did do that. Her concern

was it took too much pushing to get

2:34:302:34:33

to that point. She has not said that

individual incidents of sexual

2:34:332:34:38

exploitation and abuse were known

about by Dfid.

2:34:382:34:46

Obviously we are taking evidence in

terms of the safeguarding our lack

2:34:462:34:49

of safeguarding by non-governmental

organisations. Can one of you

2:34:492:34:54

outline what safeguarding procedures

are adopted for Dfid staff here and

2:34:542:34:59

in the field?

Let me make a start. First of all,

2:34:592:35:06

the general point is to make years

we hold ourselves at least two as

2:35:062:35:12

high a standard as our partners, and

we are explicit in doing so. We have

2:35:122:35:15

made sure that all staff are aware

of the whistle-blowing procedures

2:35:152:35:20

and so on. We need to distinguish

between UK-based members of Dfid

2:35:202:35:25

staff and staff employed locally in

individual countries around the

2:35:252:35:30

world. The former are civil

servants. They are recruited the

2:35:302:35:36

same way that other civil servants

are recruited, with the same sort of

2:35:362:35:38

abetting. -- vetting. Local staff

are recruited in an individual

2:35:382:35:47

country and are recruited according

to procedures and the law. There is

2:35:472:35:52

always some formal background check.

The precise measure of that object

2:35:522:35:56

does vary from country to country.

And contract is? The evidence from

2:35:562:36:02

Oxfam earlier gave some evidence of

someone who had left who had been

2:36:022:36:08

employed by a contract. What sort of

due diligence would there be with a

2:36:082:36:13

Dfid contractor?

We have just

started a new contract with

2:36:132:36:18

Palladium. In response, Palladium

are very aware of this and have

2:36:182:36:24

procedures in place at the moment.

They do due diligence on their

2:36:242:36:29

staff. The issue is it is as far as

you can go giving the nationality of

2:36:292:36:35

the person you are looking at. They

do have that in place. They are now

2:36:352:36:40

reviewing and looking again at all

of their processes and plan to act

2:36:402:36:44

soon with an idea of what further

steps we can take. They do have

2:36:442:36:48

measures in place, quite strong

measures.

They are your contract

2:36:482:36:52

with regard to humanitarian? Those

contract may come into contact with

2:36:522:37:00

vulnerable people, including

children. Is there a similar process

2:37:002:37:05

for other contractors?

We have just

had a very big process of looking

2:37:052:37:08

how we work with our contractors. We

have a new supply review. Part of

2:37:082:37:18

that has a code of conduct Ferraro

-- how are suppliers act.

2:37:182:37:30

The number of times you have said

depending on national circumstances

2:37:302:37:33

of the nationality of the people.

I'm struggling to quite understand

2:37:332:37:37

that. Here in Parliament I employ an

Australian national. He had to come

2:37:372:37:43

with a certificate from the

Australian police and provided to me

2:37:432:37:47

and the Parliamentary authorities.

They then still did a check with the

2:37:472:37:52

British security services. They

checked back in Australia. That

2:37:522:37:56

seemed to be no problem. I don't

understand why... May be

2:37:562:38:03

misinterpreting what you are saying,

but we are not having a standard

2:38:032:38:06

system that we are opposing --

imposing, maybe even imposing VAT on

2:38:062:38:17

any NGO we have a refund.

All I

meant was that when we employ

2:38:172:38:23

someone in country X, in addition to

what we're doing globally, we need

2:38:232:38:26

to make sure we are implying that

person within the law of the

2:38:262:38:30

country. Ice it is an addition

rather taking away? Certainly there

2:38:302:38:35

is no taking way.

If possible, could

someone from the committee, long on

2:38:352:38:43

the 5th of March when everybody is

getting together at a summit to join

2:38:432:38:49

this up? It strikes me this is a

longer term issue, it is quite

2:38:492:38:52

complex. We would be keen to hear

what you are saying and be part of

2:38:522:38:59

that enquiry.

We would welcome that. The 5th of

2:38:592:39:04

March is an important point. You are

hearing about some of the proposals

2:39:042:39:08

from Save the Children. We have been

gathering over the last while other

2:39:082:39:12

policy proposals we want to test.

That is only a start. We will be

2:39:122:39:17

working with a broader range of

organisations after the 5th of March

2:39:172:39:21

to further test of those ideas, to

potentially see whether we could

2:39:212:39:27

test them in reality through some of

our departments and look towards a

2:39:272:39:31

larger conference possibly later in

the year where we can bring a larger

2:39:312:39:34

group of people together.

I just want to develop something.

2:39:342:39:44

The UN seems to me is not fit for

purpose because it is not stopping

2:39:442:39:49

what is going on. We should be

leaving that as well. What plans do

2:39:492:39:52

you have following this summit for

working with the UN, to get all of

2:39:522:39:58

those organisations together, to

make sure that they actually put in

2:39:582:40:03

proper safeguarding procedures and

proper training, and not just leave

2:40:032:40:06

it to the UK? I have heard about

this ever since I have been involved

2:40:062:40:12

with this. Since I came into

Parliament. That was 2010. It hasn't

2:40:122:40:16

gone away. It is not going away.

What are you doing to lead the world

2:40:162:40:24

by holding the UN to account?

The

Secretary of State for International

2:40:242:40:29

Development has made it clear we are

not going to wait for the UN anybody

2:40:292:40:32

else. We were lead from the front.

We are reaching out to others to

2:40:322:40:37

encourage them to join us in that

fight because we know that the more

2:40:372:40:42

numerous we can be, the more

effective we can be. But we're not

2:40:422:40:46

waiting for anybody to catch up. In

addition to the point about

2:40:462:40:50

peacekeeping, we also have in place,

thanks to the previous Secretary of

2:40:502:40:54

State and subsequent work, a series

of performance agreements with the

2:40:542:40:58

different part of the United

Nations, which permit us to withhold

2:40:582:41:03

funding from any parts of the United

Nations that do not match our

2:41:032:41:07

requirements, either in terms of

their reform or of the results, and

2:41:072:41:13

results can mean either the

development results or if you like

2:41:132:41:18

the internal processes in relation

to sexual exploitation or abuse or

2:41:182:41:24

other priorities. We have already

announced, and we discussed this, we

2:41:242:41:28

have already made it absolutely

clear that those parts of

2:41:282:41:35

international organisations who wish

to continue to receive UK government

2:41:352:41:38

funding need to make sure that they

not only have zero tolerance for

2:41:382:41:43

sexual exportation abuse, but they

can prove it.

That would include the

2:41:432:41:47

World Bank? We have different

performance agreements with the

2:41:472:41:52

World Bank.

I would have to check if

the precise wording is the same.

2:41:522:41:57

Thank you.

Can I return to the issue we

2:41:572:42:03

discussed with Save the Children,

these reports published in 2002

2:42:032:42:10

between the UNHCR and Save the

Children, and the second in 2008.

2:42:102:42:16

What, if anything, did Dfid do about

those reports at the time?

2:42:162:42:23

I think firstly, and Mr Watkins said

earlier, I think we would

2:42:232:42:28

acknowledge that systemwide there

was a collective failure to respond

2:42:282:42:31

that scale to those messages,

including from 2007. We are all

2:42:312:42:38

taking responsibility to improve in

this area. There is no doubt about

2:42:382:42:40

that. When the committee look at

some of the measures we have put in

2:42:402:42:46

place within Dfid, you will see a

further strengthening. From early on

2:42:462:42:50

we now have in our accountable...

People have the facility to tell us

2:42:502:43:00

immediately when they have concerns.

That is really important. We are

2:43:002:43:03

doing broader work. The Secretary of

State was in Stockholm last week as

2:43:032:43:09

a founder member of the global

partnership for violence against

2:43:092:43:13

children. What you are seeing is a

broadening movement that has found

2:43:132:43:18

purchase. The global partnership was

only established two years ago. The

2:43:182:43:22

wake-up call that we had been

hearing earlier on is resonating

2:43:222:43:25

more broadly.

Why do you detect -- think it talks

2:43:252:43:32

the times journalist to give us this

wake-up call? The department has

2:43:322:43:38

known about the Oxfam allegations

for some time. Why has it taken a

2:43:382:43:43

newspaper for this to give it the

wake-up call you have described?

2:43:432:43:49

First of all, I would like to pay

tribute to the journalism that has

2:43:492:43:53

led to this wake-up call. There is a

much-needed wake-up call. I wouldn't

2:43:532:44:00

speculate on the psychology involved

over the intervening years. I think

2:44:002:44:03

it is fair to say that this whole

issue of safeguarding has, for a

2:44:032:44:09

long, been a priority for Dfid and

for the sector. But it has been a

2:44:092:44:14

priority amongst others. What we are

now doing is honing in on it, giving

2:44:142:44:21

of laser focus and making sure that

we pull in ideas from wherever we

2:44:212:44:26

can in order to root out this evil.

2:44:262:44:37

And the it is a huge collective

failure on all our cards.

-- it is a

2:44:372:44:46

huge collective failure on all our

parts.

2:44:462:44:57

The Secretary of State put Oxfam on

a pretty tight deadline saying that

2:44:582:45:01

by the end of last week, they should

show precisely how they would handle

2:45:012:45:07

any future allegations around

safeguarding. Have they done that?

2:45:072:45:13

Yes, they have. Oxfam wrote to the

Secretary of State late last

2:45:132:45:17

Thursday night. The Secretary of

State sent to feed a man's. -- sent

2:45:172:45:24

three demands. The first was

handling allegations, the second was

2:45:242:45:29

that they would cooperate completely

and fully with the Haiti authorities

2:45:292:45:34

and the third was that they ritual

leadership across this case. For the

2:45:342:45:38

Haitian authorities, I met the

ambassador yesterday to discuss this

2:45:382:45:45

case and make sure that corporation

was indeed happening and we have

2:45:452:45:48

also been talking to Foreign Office

colleagues and the ambassador has

2:45:482:45:53

been to see the ambassador in Haiti

to make sure Oxfam are doing the

2:45:532:45:59

right thing. Oxfam also confirmed

they reported these individuals to

2:45:592:46:07

the national authorities. On making

clear how they would handle

2:46:072:46:10

forthcoming allegations, Mr Golding

mentioned earlier, they handed over

2:46:102:46:14

their current caseload of life

cases. They told us they are now

2:46:142:46:19

employing an independent firm to

come and oversee and to run the

2:46:192:46:23

whistle-blowing and we will be

looking closely at their performance

2:46:232:46:26

over the next period of time. We

welcome the opening of the Charity

2:46:262:46:31

Commission inquiry which was shed

further evidence on the handling of

2:46:312:46:33

the incidents in Haiti in 2011, the

governance of Oxfam going forward

2:46:332:46:39

and hope we despond. -- how we

respond.

I take it you're satisfied

2:46:392:46:49

that Oxfam has, in terms of what

they have been asked to do, have

2:46:492:46:54

responded sufficiently.

There are

two sets of requirements, the Oxfam

2:46:542:46:59

specific requirements which had a

deadline of last week, then there

2:46:592:47:04

are the sector wide requirements.

They are one of the UK-based

2:47:042:47:09

charities that has deceived a letter

from the Secretary of State asking

2:47:092:47:13

them to set out in detail to give us

assurance that they have processes

2:47:132:47:16

in place on safeguarding. Clearly

they have themselves, following

2:47:162:47:25

discussions with the Secretary of

State, withdrawn from bidding for

2:47:252:47:29

any new UK Government funding until

they are satisfied they can meet the

2:47:292:47:35

high standards we expect of our

partners and of course the Secretary

2:47:352:47:39

of State for International

Development will be looking very

2:47:392:47:40

seriously in order to make that

judgment of the sort of moral

2:47:402:47:44

leadership they are able to show.

That is a judgment which she will be

2:47:442:47:50

making in the future.

The Secretary

of State, as you say, said that she

2:47:502:47:57

is prepared to review funding if any

agency falls below the standards

2:47:572:48:05

that are required. There are others

who have suggested that actually,

2:48:052:48:14

funding from Oxfam should be

withdrawn. If it was going to be

2:48:142:48:19

withdrawn, what do you think the

impact of that would be on

2:48:192:48:25

beneficiaries around the world?

That

is the sort of judgment which we

2:48:252:48:27

will be making in the future in

relation to future funding

2:48:272:48:33

decisions. We need to wait to get

that evidence to make that judgment.

2:48:332:48:39

It's going to be a complex judgment

to make and it will be based on

2:48:392:48:45

actions in the future as well as an

assessment of the recent past.

I

2:48:452:48:52

understand the issues that would be

brought in making a judgment about

2:48:522:48:56

whether or not that was the right

thing to do, but presumably already,

2:48:562:49:03

the department has got some

assessment of what would happen

2:49:032:49:10

around the world of funding to Oxfam

was withdrawn.

We do, that is part

2:49:102:49:17

of the assessment we will be making

in the future.

You don't have any

2:49:172:49:22

thoughts on that?

It's a very

complex question to answer and it is

2:49:222:49:28

going to be specific to individual

countries in some parts of the world

2:49:282:49:33

there will be a variety of partners

that DFID could choose to work with

2:49:332:49:38

and in others it will be harder to

find an alternative to an existing

2:49:382:49:43

partner so it is difficult to give a

global answer to that hypothetical

2:49:432:49:48

question at the moment.

I should

declare an interest because I went

2:49:482:49:54

with Oxfam in 2015 and sort the work

they do in the refugee camp with

2:49:542:50:01

Syrian refugees. Were there to be a

decision to withdraw funding,

2:50:012:50:04

presumably you would only do that

when another partner was put in

2:50:042:50:07

place so that the water and

sanitation currently provided by

2:50:072:50:10

Oxfam is still provided.

Oxfam and a

big part of water and sanitation, we

2:50:102:50:18

would need to take it into account.

We would need to do that contingency

2:50:182:50:24

planning.

Wouldn't be fair to say

that they would be a major haul

2:50:242:50:37

potentially in a lot of really

important development efforts around

2:50:372:50:41

the world, particularly water and

sanitation?

We would do our best to

2:50:412:50:49

make sure there were other partners

we could operate through. It is

2:50:492:50:53

something we're looking at number of

ways. There are also new projects

2:50:532:50:58

which would be fine because we were

just take bids from different

2:50:582:51:02

partners so on existing partners, we

would like to mitigate impact on

2:51:022:51:05

beneficiaries.

Am I right in

thinking you are now the head of the

2:51:052:51:17

safeguarding unit that the Secretary

of State promised to be established?

2:51:172:51:21

If that is the case can I just ask,

why do you think it took so long for

2:51:212:51:28

such a unit to be set up, seeing

that a number of colleagues and the

2:51:282:51:33

committee as a whole has been

raising these issues for quite some

2:51:332:51:37

time?

It is not that DFID hasn't got

about safeguarding over the past

2:51:372:51:46

period of time. As you take forward

the broader inquiry, you will see

2:51:462:51:54

this. For example, in December 2017,

we issued as smart data

2:51:542:51:58

safeguarding, the product of a lot

of work and how best to do

2:51:582:52:03

safeguarding. We have safeguarding

written into some of our procedures

2:52:032:52:07

and policies will be looked the

capability of organisations to have

2:52:072:52:12

safeguarding policies but also

operate them so until this point,

2:52:122:52:14

safeguarding was the responsibility

across the organisation. What we

2:52:142:52:19

have decided to do in response to

this crisis is draw that together to

2:52:192:52:23

categorise further action. The

responsibility of the safeguarding

2:52:232:52:27

unit is not to replace safeguarding.

It is to set and to raise standards

2:52:272:52:36

and safeguarding right across the

international sector including DFID

2:52:362:52:40

and to make sure we are responding

to that responsibility we have

2:52:402:52:45

discussed early on, the work that

out in -- our internal audits does

2:52:452:52:52

and I will advance team does, this

is about consolidating and rising to

2:52:522:52:57

the challenge that we know we all

face.

We all know that mainstreaming

2:52:572:53:05

is a code for not doing it if you

don't have some leading in the

2:53:052:53:09

centre, to having someone in the

centre and mainstreaming the work

2:53:092:53:14

very good, but just so I'm clear,

who will you report to? Directly to

2:53:142:53:22

the Secretary of State? Just in

terms of what level it sat.

You will

2:53:222:53:26

understand the Secretary of State

announced the creation of this unit

2:53:262:53:30

and we have been working that

currently. We will review those

2:53:302:53:40

arrangements as we consolidate and

consider the further functions of

2:53:402:53:44

the safeguarding unit within DFID.

She did say it was reporting

2:53:442:53:51

directly to her and Jimmy so there

is that joule chain -- dual. We put

2:53:512:54:03

together in one unit, 16 people to

provide that central impetus but I

2:54:032:54:09

wouldn't want anyone to have the

impression that there was no focus

2:54:092:54:17

on safeguarding before that grip,

but this is a new phase.

So you

2:54:172:54:25

report to three?

He directly to the

Secretary of State and have

2:54:252:54:34

conversations directly and has done

so most days, so that's a bit of

2:54:342:54:37

civil service issue. On any issues

like this, he has a direct line if

2:54:372:54:46

necessary to the Secretary of State.

From the conversations we have had

2:54:462:54:50

with Save the Children, they were

talking about some of the

2:54:502:54:53

discussions we have had with

Interpol struggling to get political

2:54:532:54:58

capital. Has the department had any

discussions with Interpol about

2:54:582:55:03

trying to oil those wheels? If so,

what were the discussions and if

2:55:032:55:13

not, is very commitment to go to

Interpol and even offers a cost of

2:55:132:55:16

what this needs to be to make sure

those wheels or oiled?

Yes, we will

2:55:162:55:23

work with them in the run-up to the

summit on the 5th of March and

2:55:232:55:28

beyond and we will be looking

imaginatively at whatever ideas come

2:55:282:55:33

out of that. As for the first

question, I don't know.

I don't

2:55:332:55:43

believe we have. The Secretary of

State met the national crime agency

2:55:432:55:48

recently and that is all part of the

process and an important

2:55:482:55:52

functionality.

In terms of this idea

of regulated profession whatever the

2:55:522:56:02

term is, so that aid agencies can

automatically... Is that a

2:56:022:56:10

discussion that is happening with

the relevant department that we need

2:56:102:56:12

to bring that statutory instrument

in and have there been any

2:56:122:56:17

consideration in the Department of

just unilaterally establishing a

2:56:172:56:20

register? Not just British aid

workers, but of all aid workers that

2:56:202:56:28

get in touch of British money or

NGOs or anything and extending our

2:56:282:56:32

jurisdiction to the Globe until

another agency comes forward and

2:56:322:56:40

takes that please? Has there been

consideration about whether that

2:56:402:56:44

would be feasible?

As I said in

answer to the question earlier, yes.

2:56:442:56:50

Nothing is any longer to difficult.

-- too difficult. This issue was

2:56:502:57:01

deemed to be difficult when she

first raised it, difficult to

2:57:012:57:05

implement and with some concerns

about lack of accountability and so

2:57:052:57:08

on. I think now on the changed

circumstances, we are looking at it

2:57:082:57:13

and seeing whether the time is now

right and we will be using the

2:57:132:57:18

summit on the 5th of March to see if

the time is right to launch it.

2:57:182:57:24

It'll be useful to share that with

the committee so that we can see the

2:57:242:57:27

thought process, even if it doesn't

go ahead, because that be useful for

2:57:272:57:31

us.

Can I criticise you for

something you said. You said if the

2:57:312:57:36

time is right. The time is right. It

is not a case of if, we have to do

2:57:362:57:43

it, we cannot let this happen again.

I am saying yes to that. The time is

2:57:432:57:53

long overdue, it needs to be done

now.

Save the Children recently

2:57:532:58:01

wrote to you in terms of giving the

number of proposals on safeguarding.

2:58:012:58:08

Will you be implementing these

proposals or do you have any

2:58:082:58:12

timescale on them?

Out of the first

part of the answer then hand over to

2:58:122:58:19

my colleague. As with previous

suggestions in this area, we want to

2:58:192:58:23

use the summit on the 5th of March

as an opportunity to gather all of

2:58:232:58:26

us together to hear from those with

most front-line experience on these

2:58:262:58:31

issues including Save the Children,

including Oxfam, including others in

2:58:312:58:34

the sector and there might be other

ideas out there as well so we added

2:58:342:58:38

the state pulling those ideas and

seeing which ones are most likely to

2:58:382:58:44

really resolve this issue -- pooling

this idea.

Unless colleagues have

2:58:442:58:55

other questions, we need to finish

with a closing question. This has

2:58:552:58:59

been a massive news story of the

last ten days, raising massively

2:58:592:59:03

serious concerns and as we have dug

further into it, we see these issues

2:59:032:59:07

that have been known about in one

form or another a very long period

2:59:072:59:11

of time. Do you recognise the damage

that this has done to the reputation

2:59:112:59:16

of the aid sector and what is DFID's

strategy to address that?

2:59:162:59:26

Yes this is a huge crisis for the

aid sector, I welcome the enquiry

2:59:262:59:32

announced today, as a contribution

to turning this crisis around and

2:59:322:59:38

learning from it, rooting out the

evil which exists within the sector

2:59:382:59:40

and through those improvements to

grab an opportunity and to create

2:59:402:59:48

something better as a legacy of this

crisis and the awful things which

2:59:482:59:53

have happened to people in Haiti and

elsewhere. The reputation of the

2:59:533:00:00

sector, the reputation of aid, the

reputation of the 0.7% commitment

3:00:003:00:03

have been pulled into the mix but as

the previous witness was saying,

3:00:033:00:11

it's very important to consider why

the British government, why all the

3:00:113:00:15

main parties have committed to spend

0.7% of our economy each year on

3:00:153:00:21

international aid and to do a better

job than we have done in the past

3:00:213:00:27

between us of explaining to the

British people why that's a good

3:00:273:00:30

thing to do for our own country, for

our own prosperity and security and

3:00:303:00:35

our own influence around the world.

All those things are threatened by

3:00:353:00:39

this crisis but we are determined to

act with you and the charities and

3:00:393:00:43

the private sector to turn that

around.

Thank you for that. Let me

3:00:433:00:48

conclude this hearing by repeating

what we said earlier this morning as

3:00:483:00:54

a committee, we will be holding a

formal enquiry into the issues we

3:00:543:01:00

have addressed this morning and

which will be looking for that

3:01:003:01:03

culpability for the past but also

importantly on how we can improve in

3:01:033:01:07

the future and we will consider

further witnesses in due course.

3:01:073:01:12

Thank you.

3:01:123:01:14

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