11/12/2016 Sunday Politics East Midlands


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's fortunes.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


A row has broken out between Number Ten and former


Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,


the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.


I feel as though I'm one of the people that


If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,


It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult


for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest


Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.


Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,


but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance


And in the East Midlands... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie


The safe Labour seats under threat from Ukip.


And the villagers who want to pay for private security to replace


think of it as an early Christmas present from us.


We guarantee you won't be disappointed.


And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined


by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.


It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.


So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some


of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.


But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this


morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts


from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning


the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.


Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,


and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation


She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning


Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair


She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart


Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week


But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary


argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief


She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing


for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation


and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".


The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying


"If you don't like something I have said or done, please


If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."


Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.


And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see


in our film shortly, has now been formally banned


So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying


tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says


something about British politics today, that this is the most


important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are


not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they


don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being


spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street


with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet


Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row


over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,


she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten


you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the


high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.


You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky


Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul


as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.


Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they


are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in


which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's


entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is


genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she


chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that


journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life


works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the


Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney


and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government


department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold


together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the


whole Government like one department. This is just the start,


Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,


The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most


to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if


it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was


split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used


to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down


the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert


the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a


self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it


comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do


you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own


wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is


that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen


polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,


a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any


money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself


comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted


with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most


exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that


British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain


lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at


being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split


between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that


sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the


1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.


The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of


pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.


So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price


of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.


And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire


the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say


about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead


of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,


it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.


While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated


Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting


on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.


Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government


basically got its way, but it did provide a platform


for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,


We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level


of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners


that want to thwart the will of the people,


go back on it and that we don't accept the result.


I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people


It's not good enough that these things are dragged


out of the Government by opposition day motions.


I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking


Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents


I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head


above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,


you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.


I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank


you for what you are doing, party members around


the country saying thank you for what you are doing


and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.


I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,


you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak


opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised


on before we embark on such a huge issue.


Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's


side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that


if you don't stand up for what you believe in,


I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.


That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local


party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses


Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association


she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support


the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that


and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people


who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government


The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP


and we want to see a Conservative government being


I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get


on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,


Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see


how her stance is going down with the voters.


If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does


Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,


especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU


so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.


She should stick for what she believes in,


but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...


She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted


to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,


depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.


Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street


this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.


Although now we know not everyone is invited.


And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday


was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted


against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end


of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.


Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David


Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new


leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to


deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't


speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious


interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but


somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman


which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and


said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger


ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only


serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a


difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,


your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more


in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it


not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not


Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,


she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting


out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for


being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it


wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the


national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid


throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and


my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party


throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion


on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to


Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my


reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national


interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of


course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you


think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it


40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you


have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,


they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have


been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.


That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are


living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and


the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's


trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we


need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a


leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis


upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the


others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than


any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.


What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our


children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need


Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of


negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to


run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted


in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister


sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that


your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons


think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum


campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were


completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.


Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I


have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so


just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a


minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan


Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with


that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were


going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and


tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How


long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will


survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a


heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you


think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has


always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in


a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does


he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to


forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there


will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten


years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of


his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward


is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which


all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet


papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get


down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry


to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film


that a number of constituency members in those areas which are


strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was


Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.


What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects


their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very


grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because


you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great


fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on


everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've


always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying


what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and


then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised


if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the


policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say


you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing


Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't


been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my


colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that


haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have


been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well


with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's


much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street


has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm


glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what


they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm


not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still


have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.


That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really


grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will


have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument


about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to


keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be


deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's


relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this


Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you


for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever


criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn


against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,


but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,


or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result


for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping


for an early Christmas present at this week's


contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,


a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,


there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second


in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better


performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,


where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting


fewer voters than the reported number of local


Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this


week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major


issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity


is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers


were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote


against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU


by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've


spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs


the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,


or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,


eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,


a national poll released on Friday put Labour


at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy


for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories


under his leadership, including a by-election win


in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a


Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack


of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having


failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,


what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played


down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour


Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic


party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current


leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in


the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.


And we're joined now by the former mayor


of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow


Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from


second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its


deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in


this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters


switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings


that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is


like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the


Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win


tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with


the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,


but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the


national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells


going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I


think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a


plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are


going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard


Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.


When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.


John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a


massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory


governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a


disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if


Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the


EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year


and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we


are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic


disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew


the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why


are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points


behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating


went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an


election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not


grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it


will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic


alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible


economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand


basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a


commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It


is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,


particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back


and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative


manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to


the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the


broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an


MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not


going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a


couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from


Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And


I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part


of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted


to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you


don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other


27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,


why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't


think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to


get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps


millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say


we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all


Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would


suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories


are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a


bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut


through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us


that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a


33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of


the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to


make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and


not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or


whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox


fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18


months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.


The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You


weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you


have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting


rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of


policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to


govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The


idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like


takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,


yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this


summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of


the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I


want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have


got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio


at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more


money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums


add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.


They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour


Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..


Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid


off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace


compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is


decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a


society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just


the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to


contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public


are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in


the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out


clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these


things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money


through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150


billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier


estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR


programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can


say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we


will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just


checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do


you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn


round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get


worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we


would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will


knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill


Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going


to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise


they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the


Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans


that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in


12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will


hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for


the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do


they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to


bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your


party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we


have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the


opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good


enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the


Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and


on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending


national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian


intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now


in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be


able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are


heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the


war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the


last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the


way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we


used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is


in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually


getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.


Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking


about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying


off message, again, and the protestors attempting


In the East Midlands... Politics where you are.


Can Ukip steal seats in Labour's heartlands?


I would be surprised if Ukip took it on.


You could put a pig up in this constituency with a red


And the villagers planning to pay for their own


security patrols to replace the missing police officers.


We already pay ?1 million to the police for this parish


Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests this week are Edward Argar,


the Conservative MP for Charnwood, and Glenis Willmott,


First Europe, and the government outlined its timetable


Three of our MPs voted against it - Chris Leslie and Graham Allen


from Labour and Ken Clarke from the Conservatives.


Edward Argar, you were a Remainer before the campaign.


I have always been very clear that the result of the referendum,


whatever it was, had to be accepted, respected and delivered on.


I am very clear that the Prime Minister has set out the right


We aim to invoke Article 50, to be in the process of leaving


by the end of March next year and I will be voting for that.


What do you make of Ken Clarke voting against the timetable?


The only Conservative MP in the country to do so.


Ken is an extremely experienced and knowledgeable


He's got long-held views on this subject and that is for him to vote


as his conscience dictates but I am very clear that I will be voting


for the invocation of Article 50 by the end of March next year


in line with the Prime Minister's plan.


Glenis Willmott, you're an MEP and the leader


What's the atmosphere like there now since the referendum?


We have had a lot of support as people who campaigned to remain


in but I think people are now getting used to the idea that


We have to follow the will of the people, there


But we want to make sure that we get the best deal for British people


that we can and we are working very hard with colleagues


in the European Parliament and elsewhere to make sure


that they understand that this isn't a slight against them,


this is Britain's decision and we need a good deal, not just


Is that what MEPs are doing at the moment?


Yes, we are working closely, having various meetings


with different people, different negotiators,


and saying this isn't about punishing the British people,


it is about getting a good deal that suits the British people


Are your EU colleagues listening to you?


I think there was a lot of anger at first.


Initially there was a lot of anger but I think now the realisation has


sunk in and they're starting to understand that they have to be


But there is no doubt, whatever deal we get,


we've got to make sure that the Government is held


to account and that they do get the best deal in British interests.


Next, Ukip may have failed to make a big dent against the Conservatives


in this week's Sleaford by-election, but there are predictions the party


could be a major threat to Labour in the East Midlands.


One academic who's studied the party's rise has been drawing up


a list of the region's seats which Ukip could win


Our Political Editor Tony Roe has been looking at the findings.


Kirkby-in-Ashfield, the heart of Ashfield constituency.


Along with Mansfield, one of the Labour seats


in the East Midlands Ukip could target at the next general


election, after a tenfold increase in support last year.


The reason - a strong support for Brexit here.


I think they should go by what the people have


voted for and I think they should honour it.


I would be surprised if Ukip took it on but you never know,


people are unpredictable, I guess.


As regards Ukip, I firmly believe good luck to them with Mr Farage


You could put a pig up in this constituency with a red


At the University of Nottingham, an expert on the rise of Ukip,


Dr Caitlin Milazzo, reckons with a new leader in Paul Nuttall,


targeted campaigning of seats like Ashfield could be effective.


Ukip is going to hit hard on these issues because they are going to try


to exploit the idea that the MPs are out of step, particularly


in Labour constituencies, with their constituents,


and that is going to really resonate so whether or not that will be


enough to convert into seats is another matter but it's certainly


going to hurt Labour in the East Midlands


It says around the sculpture in the centre of town,


"Let not the toil of our forebears be forgotten but let it be


reborn in the industry and endeavour for the future."


The problem is, those industries aren't here yet for Kirkby.


One reason perhaps why some people here feel left behind,


why they voted to leave the EU to protest.


Labour here say they are not being complacent, though.


Most weekends they are out campaigning.


Gloria is well aware of what our constituents feel


and she has done a survey which I'm sure she will publish


shortly, asking the people what they want from Brexit.


The Greens said, to see off the Ukip challenge in seats like this,


alliances between opposition parties may be necessary.


In the Green Party we are open for progressive alliances,


meaning to work together with Labour, possibly the Lib Dems,


and to really oppose the rise of the far right.


As for the Lib Dems, they used to be the main


How on earth are they going to recover the votes they lost to Ukip?


The political landscape as of June 23 has changed.


The lines have been redrawn around a single issue and there is only one


party on one side of that and that is us.


A lot depends on the timing of the next election.


What will Ukip stand for if we are out of the EU?


Ukip's best campaigning position is going to be if hard


Brexit is delayed or, you know, they don't quite go


If they do, Ukip is in a tough, tough position because essentially


Theresa May has flagged them in many of these areas.


How Ukip targets seats will also be important.


Well they have enough resources and organisation?


Fighting a general election is completely different


Joining us is the leader of the Ukip group on Derby City Council,


a former Labour man himself, Alan Graves.


Alan, there's a lot of talk of Ukip winning Labour seats,


but we heard in Tony's report that Labour loyalties run deep.


One man described it as "they'd vote for a pig with a red rosette on."


Well, the thing is we are taking a lot of the Labour voters.


Only today, I've just signed up a Labour member into the Ukip fold.


You're not making great inroads into Conservative territory,


so maybe Labour's territory is the way you'll have to go to make


Well, you have to be aware that the Conservatives


Theresa May is still in a honeymoon period.


When she fails to produce the Brexit that people want then I think you'll


see Conservative voters changing over back to Ukip.


But I do agree with you we are taking a lot of Labour voters.


We are appealing to Labour voters up and down the country.


How concerned are you about that, Glenis Willmott?


We shouldn't be complacent and obviously we would be concerned


if that was the case but when it to a general election people


will vote on a whole range of other things.


At the moment, the referendum is still in people's minds


and we saw in the by-election recently that it was about Brexit.


When you went on the doorstep, it was still about Brexit.


When we come to a general election, what people will want to know


is what are Ukip's policies on the NHS?


The current leader thinks there should be more privatisation


of the NHS, which is not something Labour voters agree with.


It's about education, it is about a whole range of issues,


Caitlin Milazzo did say in our film that your party is out of step


with your voters in places like Ashfield and Mansfield.


I think when you have just had that referendum vote


and it is still fresh in people's minds, it is still about that


and people are still talking about whether we should be Remain


Yes, Labour campaigned for Remain but we have accepted


the will of the British people and there will be a Brexit.


Now we have to decide what sort of Brexit and nobody


voted for a hard Brexit, nobody voted to lose jobs


and lower living standards, so we have to make sure we get


the best Brexit deal we can possibly get and that is our job to make sure


Well, I think what we have seen recently and we saw it


in Sleaford on Thursday, is that the Ukip vote


It was a very strong endorsement, I think, that result,


We have seen in opinion polls that Ukip, which was on about 19% in some


polls as recently as six months ago, is now down to 10-11%.


I would urge caution, of course, because what this year has taught us


in politics is be careful, don't predict anything.


Are the Lib Dems more of a threat to the Conservatives right now?


On the basis of what I have seen, and I think we saw this


in Sleaford and North Hykeham, again, the Lib Dems,


there is a Lib Dem vote there but it was a very weak Lib Dem


vote compared with the overall result for the Conservatives.


What I found on the doorstep and what I find in my own


constituency is a number of people who have toyed with Ukip in the past


coming back to the Conservatives because they believe Theresa May


is the right person to actually deliver Brexit


Alan, how do you go about winning in places


Well, first of all, we are actually on 14%,


not 10 or 11, so our vote is actually holding from.


so our vote is actually -- holding firm.


If you look at the results, the Conservative vote actually


lowered a lot more than us and the Labour vote disintegrated.


I think Ukip are doing very well because we have just had


a horrendous summer as a party and I think that is very positive


for us because there we are holding our vote in a place


like Sleaford and North Hykeham, so I am very pleased with the result


and I think that particularly the Labour Party needs


to be very, very careful because they will go into oblivion


You're disintegrating and could go into oblivion.


There were only 1000 votes between Ukip and Labour.


Between Ukip, Liberal and Labour of there were 1000 votes


on Thursday, so it wasn't such a huge...


We were never going to win in a seat like that.


You thought you were going to do better because you had


Paul Nuttall was there thinking Ukip were going to do


It must have been very disappointing.


It doesn't look good, though, does it?


Obviously it was disappointing but I do think we all know


In a general election, people make their choices


Is one of the things that attracts people to Ukip, though,


There's an example here of Ukip doing things on the ground


in Derby for example, the Labour council isn't having any


bin collections over Christmas and Ukip are offering to do them.


That is the kind of bread-and-butter stuff they can do on the ground


and maybe that is what attracts people to them.


I think it is jolly decent of them to do that if there


That's fantastic they are doing that.


But it is not what people vote on in a general election.


Really they want to know what are you doing about educating our kids,


what are you doing about accident and emergency levels,


what are you doing about all of these big things,


what are you doing about wages and jobs?


Ukip has no answers to that and we all know that.


Paul Nuttall thinks that the NHS should be privatised.


He is not saying that he wants NHS privatised.


He is on record as saying that we should have more


Labour voters do not agree with that.


The biggest privatisation of the NHS was under the Labour Party


in control so let's get our facts straight.


They will make their views known in a general election and I don't


think you will see that Ukip will be winning many seats


We heard Kat Boettge from the Greens in the East Midlands


call for an alliance of opposition parties.


Is that something that would worry you?


No, and I think what is important actually...


..that voters get the choice they would expect in an election.


If people feel strongly with a particular party political


view that they have a platform to put forward I think they should


be honest with the voters, put themselves forward for election


What I think would be wrong would be essentially for sort of backroom


deals in smoke-filled rooms of parties to carve up who does


or doesn't go on that ballot paper, to see who has the best chance.


I think let people put themselves forward,


as we have always done in this country, democratically.


Let the people choose rather than trying to carve it up.


What we need is more proportional representation,


a form of proportional representation in our country.


If you look at the last general election, we got


nearly 4 million votes, which in proportional terms


So there is something wrong with our electoral system.


Thank you very much indeed for joining us.


Another referendum could be on the horizon in the East Midlands,


but don't panic, it's just for one Nottinghamshire village.


People in Selston are deciding tomorrow if they should have a vote


on bringing in their own private security to replace police patrols


Helen McCulloch's been along to hear their complaints.


The problems we have are in the evenings when you have


anti-social behaviour, kids who come here for drugs


pick-ups and drop-offs, around this corner here,


and then you've got them causing problems for the neighbours here,


kicking their fence and doing all kinds of things.


Do you think those kids that turn up, they know there are no


They are problems many people will recognise in our rural areas.


A community that feels isolated and neglected by its police force.


The last arresting officer left here, this contact centre,


We have no arresting police officers so if there is any incidents,


we have to ring the police and wait for somebody to come.


And the response time is roughly seven minutes.


By which time, somebody could be beaten to death.


Police have said repeatedly that the traditional bobbies


on the beat isn't necessarily the best way to fight crime


but a declining police presence here in Selston has left the parish


council to offer its own rather radical solution -


The scheme is based on a similar idea at the village


The village is probably more famous for its jams,


but it was the first to bring in private security


Council taxpayers are charged an extra pound to cover the cost


and Tiptree Parish Council says the marshals haven't made any


arrests yet but anti-social behaviour in the village has fallen


The Selston scheme would see council tax bills rise by ?25 per year.


The police should be doing the job as it is, really.


In principle I think it is a good idea in itself.


Personally I think it is a good idea.


Nottinghamshire Police Commissioner Paddy Tipping is in charge


of choosing police priorities in the county and says cuts


to police budgets are a big part of the problem.


Who would have thought that terrorism was such a big threat


Giving people a say, asking them to pay more locally


and be less dependent on government grant makes a lot of sense.


We already pay ?1 million to the police for this parish


We have become a cash cow to the urban areas.


What is your message to the Government on this one?


Why are they not supporting the people that elected them?


They should be giving the police whatever funding they need


At the moment, people in Selston do not feel safe.


The police say overall crime is falling in Selston and there has


been opposition to the plan in the village itself.


There will be a public meeting tomorrow to decide whether to go


ahead with the referendum on the scheme.


Edward Argar, you have a lot of rural areas in your constituency.


Would you approve of them paying extra to get more security?


We mustn't forget the spending projections by the Government


are that by 2019-20 actually there will be an additional


?900 million going into policing so we need to get that in context.


There are changes in the way that policing is happening.


In my own county of Leicestershire we have seen similar changes.


We have protected and kept neighbourhood policing as a service


We have seen crime over the past five years or so drop by over 25%.


But the parish chairman was insistent that he wasn't blaming


the police, he was blaming the cuts brought in by your government.


Your own police force in Leicestershire has made


?36 million of cuts in the last five years, and estimates it needs


Firstly, as I said, we have seen projections


for an increase in police spending by 2019-20 overall.


We have also seen in Leicestershire a significant reduction in crime,


including anti-social behaviour, and I think the same is true


for Nottinghamshire and that part of Nottinghamshire.


Are you saying to those people in Selston that it


They certainly feel this is very real, it is on their doorstep.


What I have also said is that certainly in Leicestershire


and I believe Paddy Tipping in Nottinghamshire is


doing the same, there is still a police presence,


there is still neighbourhood policing.


I think the chairman of the parish council said they could have someone


there within about seven minutes to deal with that.


It comes to something, Glenis Willmott, when villages


like this are considering that as an option.


Would you be for it, for villages like that bringing


They're still having to pay the precept for ordinary


To then have to pay more, I think it is a decision for them


I think there has been a drop of about 18% in numbers of police


officers in Nottinghamshire alone and people always feel


safer when they see, when police officers are visible.


It doesn't matter about other things that are happening but people


want to see bobbies on the beat, that's what they want.


But Edward was saying more money is going to be


People are saying crime has gone down.


It may be the case but if those villagers aren't seeing policemen


around or policewomen, that makes a difference


to the perception and how they feel because they do not feel safer.


Looking at the latest, and again I will go to Leicestershire on this


one because I know the perceptions data there, people are saying


they do feel safe and they believe that Leicestershire


We heard from the parish council chairman there saying that


You also heard them saying it is an issue that has mixed


The reality is also that, yes, as Glenis says,


she is absolutely right, a police presence and that


reassurance and that deterrence value of the bobby on the beat


Maybe people should have to pay more for the police


We have also got to look at the way that crime is changing and one


of the biggest new types of crime is cyber crime.


That is not dealt with by a bobby on the beat, it is dealt


with by very technically highly trained officers sitting


We have to recognise the way that policing happens has changed.


I actually agree about the cyber crime issue and obviously you need


People's fear, whether it is perception or not,


has to be dealt with, and if they feel they need more


bobbies on the beat then we should be looking at that.


You can't do that if you reduce police numbers.


We have to stop having cuts upon cuts upon cuts.


We have had these years and years of cuts and our finances,


People have had the pain, they have had no gain,


Time now for a round up of some of the other political stories


400 posts could go and services will be cut by Leicestershire County


Council in its latest budget proposal, and it still needs


The chairman of the Shirebrook-based Sports Direct says an extreme


political union and media campaign has damaged its reputation


The company revealed a big fall in profits this week,


which it also blamed partly on the fall in the pound.


Concerns about the growth of giant distribution centres has been


raised in Parliament by the South Leicestershire MP.


Alberto Costa is worried about plans to double the size of Magna Park.


How large do these logistics parks need to get?


The Government was sympathetic to his call for a national policy.


The worldwide success of Leicester City and the discoverer


of Richard III's body could help to attract ?50 million


of investment and create thousands of jobs in the city.


The mayor, Sir Peter Soulsby, says Leicester is now firmly


That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.


Thanks to Glenis Wilmott and Edward Argar for


Time now to hand you back to Andrew Neil.


still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.


Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked


by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian


revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged


in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking


the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally


in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned


The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it


And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks


were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right


of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi


terrorists from over the border with Yemen,


didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore


Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...


This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.


The way it was interpreted left people with the impression


that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.


Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital


Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?


Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring


Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.


It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest


in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are


the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be


honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall


story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that


Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a


story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there


was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between


London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring


and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are


taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris


Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I


tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting


Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis


got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the


Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just


what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they


see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this


conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two


ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing


Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region


earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine


what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three


words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick


to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,


although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech


which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night


which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in


withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3


billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases


exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the


world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen


and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't


entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we


have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in


Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes


and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both


saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is


going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't


going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners


and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of


bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals


and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases


with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.


Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street


reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important


development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They


want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should


be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another


example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that


the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed


post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I


think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I


think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel


threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and


many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival


for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May


trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain


is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,


post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are


breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,


democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying


ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should


we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,


these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.


Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply


collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession


depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think


what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,


we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the


most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep


saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.


Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.


The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is


a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,


or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.


Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for


breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you


make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It


is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take


this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost


tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a


huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft


carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep


the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just


Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is


more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no


change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now


we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.


Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be


trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be


turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I


don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC


has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the


weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us


move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was


inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.


Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?


Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then


Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a


distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be


able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do


something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather


than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in


general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning


what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was


interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had


they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other


than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics


which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the


British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the


Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the


things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is


happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry


watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last


week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the


west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.


And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily


Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If


and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are


talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than


anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We


will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I


understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from


analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it


is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator


of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in


reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far


you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty


much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and


the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the


press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is


behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.


He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much


of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is


time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the


cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,


you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree


at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want


to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a


reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,


that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.


I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily


Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.


and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


# We're going to have a party tonight


Andrew Neil and Marie Ashby with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's electoral fortunes, and former chancellor Ken Clarke talks about rebelling over this week's Brexit vote. The Political Panel consists of Iain Martin of Reaction, Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun and Polly Toynbee of The Guardian.

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