26/02/2012 Sunday Politics East


26/02/2012

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In the east, the disruption in our courts after cuts and closures,

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concern that justice is being eroded.

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2030 seconds

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And the fight to save our local bus Hello, I'm at Etholle George.

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Come the up, pressure is building in our magistrates' courts.

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Magistrates voice concern that cutbacks and court closures are

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pushing them to the brink. Later we will be pushing those

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points to this week's guests, conservative justice minister

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Jonathan Djanogli, and Kelvin Hopkins, Labour's MP for Luton

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North. Let us start with a quick word

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about fellow East Anglian MP, the beleaguered Health Secretary Andrew

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Lansley, who was heckled on his way into Downing Street. Waiting times

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in the NHS have gone down... Jonathan Djanogli, these health

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reforms have not won many health professionals over. That was all in

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a day's work for a minister. The reality is that we need to push

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these reforms through. We need to have a health service that is going

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to be freed at the point of delivery, but we need to realise

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that there are more all the people and more new drugs coming on the

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market. Why didn't Labour tackle health

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service reform itself. I do not think it needs reform in this -- in

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that sense. We need more resources, but the traditional health service,

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publicly provided unfunded and three at the point of need, I think

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is what we want to preserve. heard Jonathan Djanogli referred to

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the lot of a minister. Have you ever had any abuse held at you'd?

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Only by perhaps people who were more supportive of New Labour than

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I was. But generally people are very nice.

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How easy is it to deal with a difficult press? You have to get on

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with it. You have to realise what the end game is, which in our case

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is to improve the health service. This is it ring-fenced servers, but

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we still need to get savings, which is why we are going to be getting

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rid of the big bureaucracies and giving power back to GPs.

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We will talk more about but another day.

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The pressure is being put on the transport minister this week as the

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fight to save rural bus services steps up. The protest is being led

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by Norfolk MPs and councillors. A change in the funding formula for

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concessionary travel has left not just Norfolk but many other rural

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authorities out of pocket. They have campaigned together for

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better train services and to save RAF Marham. Now, and offered's

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politicians have the buses in their sights. Nearly 24,000 people had

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signed the petition which be delivered to Number Ten. Rural

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areas should be treated as fairly as city areas. We want that budget

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more evenly spread. We want to preserve those services and the

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public transport services for the remote areas, who rely on them.

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Nor offered pays bus operators 11,500 -- �11.5 million for free

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off-peak travel for this disabled and pensioners.

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But a change in the funding formula left Norfolk out of pocket by �4.5

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million. The central Government and the

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Prime Minister have both backed the bus pass. That is great because the

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concessionary bus pass has brought benefits for people across the

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country. However, it is all very well saying they are backing the

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bus pass, but unless they find it properly, they are leaving massive

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hauls in some local authority budget.

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The change in the form and that means that Moffatt's funding has

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been cut by 38%, but in Russia it is getting 33%, Northamptonshire

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18% less. The fear is that with less money to subsidise services,

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it will only be a matter of time before the less profitable routes

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close. I am joined by Derek Murphy, the

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Conservative leader of Norfolk County Council. Why are the changes

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to the funding formula particularly affecting Norfolk? It it does macro

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is it a matter of geography? have 7,000 roads and a large

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proportion of our population in rural areas, so if it will hit

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rural areas hard it will disproportionately hit Norfolk.

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There are 42 local bus operators, most of them are what people would

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call small or medium-sized enterprises. For them to absorb the

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extra cost with the reduction of the concessionary fares Monday,

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means it is really difficult for them, and as your report suggests,

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in some of the more rural areas, bus services might not operate.

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Are you surprised at the level of support from other rural regions?

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We welcome it enormously. The leader of Devon was there at Number

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Ten when we submitted our petition, and it has brought in Cumbria,

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Lancashire, North Yorkshire. This has hit a nerve with people.

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Do you feel the Government is listening? I believe they are. The

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Minister of Transport was very sympathetic to our case when we

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submitted a petition. There is now a local Government finance working

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group took me revisit the funding formula, and Eric Pickles, the

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Cabinet minister for local Government, described the funding

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formula as a dog's breakfast. He is keen for it to be unravelled and be

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very fair. Kelvin Hopkins, Labour brought in

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free bus passes and I am told without costing it correctly.

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Hasn't that correct it -- I am certain the strongly in favour of

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concessionary bus fares for all who need them. Including those in my

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own constituency. We are not affected the same as rural areas,

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but nevertheless there are those living in outlying estates who have

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to get into town centres and have their troubles supported. So I am

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absolutely in favour of concessionary bus fares. If

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Government is to put in more cash, they should do so.

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A Jonathan Djanogli if the Government had not deprived

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councils of funds, there would be less of a problem anyway, so what

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is to be done? I do not think it is Government

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depriving councils - in Cambridgeshire, about four. It

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million tickets were issued last year, and it is a great scheme. It

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is doing a lot for the elderly and rejuvenating bus services. It is

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very important. That costs �4.9 million of which Government gave

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about �4 million. The scheme became even more successful, double as

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many tickets issued - as some. Government has to cap it. We are

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living in difficult times at the moment, so I totally accept there

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is a debate to be had about how much central Government should pay

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and how much should come from the local Government. But at the same

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time it is a very successful scheme. Let us realise that at the same

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time we have to be mindful of the cost.

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Derek Murphy, do you have any sympathy for the case that Jonathan

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Djanogli puts? I agree it is very successful, but in Norfolk

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literally half the Government funding that we should receive

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should be for these concessionary bus fares where we have the

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shortfall. Next year it will be �5.2 million. We get �11 million,

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we have lost half. You and I have spoken about cuts many times on

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this programme. Is there anything that is going to go in the meantime

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to maintain the services? We are negotiating with those operators to

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try and sustained as many of the services as we can. On one hand we

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tried to make as many local communities better link with the

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outside world by getting super-fast broadband. But at the same time

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although that is a good thing for local communities, to use their bus

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can be devastating on a small village.

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Nearly eight centuries of local justice could be at stake after the

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reorganisation of our courts system. According to magistrates, cuts to

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the criminal justice system and a programme of court closures are

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jeopardising the bedrock of our British society - Justice. The

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Government says the current system is unsustainable and has closed

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five county courts and it magistrates courts around the

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region last year. Harlow magistrates, now only hold trials -

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for all of their hearings defendants and victims have to

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travel to Chelmsford. A Lithuanian motorist stands

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outside Great Yarmouth court after being told by magistrates that they

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may tear up his case when he next appeared before them. He failed to

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pay a �2 parking ticket and faces a �70 penalty charge. But at two

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hearings, interpreters have failed to turn up. It is a waste of public

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funds to have to travel back and forwards to court, monitor have it

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adjourned again and again. Fair, open and effective local

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justice is a long-held tradition in this country. But does in the

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system have told the BBC they feared court services are fast

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being eroded. Spending cuts have forced the closure of several

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courts, and the Government has imposed its numerous changes on the

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system. Solicitor and Rob New is worried about the closures of

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magistrates' courts, but he says the reduction in staffing and

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administration problems are causing delays. I have clients now who are

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on bail for significant periods of time, reported to police stations,

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been subject to curfews, and then you have victims who are themselves

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have made reports to the police of crimes against them, and are not

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seeing their cases being dealt with sometimes for half a year or more.

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It is not hard to witness problems in the system. You just have to sit

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in court and watch. In court rooms three and four here, the following

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happened - two cases adjourned through lack of court time, a youth

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trial stopped for the same reason. Two cases adjourned because they

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could not get interpreters - one of these cases had been halted for a

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second time. And one man left hanging around the court building

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for eight hours waiting for his case to be heard, he pleaded not

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guilty to theft. His case - adjourned. It is leading to a huge

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backlog of cases in the sister. Jason appeared in court accused of

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not having a driving licence. have just adjourned it.

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In it emerged that Mr Shaw own thousands in unpaid court finds for

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various driving offences. Why have you not paid? I have not bothered

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paying them. Although 100 miles away in Harlow,

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the court there will hold trials only from April, minute all other

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cases will be heard 20 miles away in Chelmsford. High Low has large

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areas of deprivation. Magistrates feared many defendants will not be

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able to afford the cost of public transport to reach the new court.

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Because of the difficulty of getting into Chelmsford from Harlow,

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you have an awful lot of offenders and defendants who were just not

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turn up. They will say, I could not afford it, but actually we are

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setting them up to fail, almost, under the circumstances. What

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happens then? There will probably be a warrant, which will be given

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out for their arrest, so the police in harder will have to arrest them

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or bring them all the way up to Chelmsford because they have to

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appear within 24 hours of arrest. That is taking them out of their

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area, it is a cost to the police. To many in the courts, local

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justice is becoming less local, and more remote.

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There was a time when the Crown Prosecution Service was within the

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building, so if somebody arrives in custody the papers could be very

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quickly located and be dealt with. Now, everything is site --

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centralised, and the CPS offices for this area or up on a business

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park. It is not easy to get Hall of the things.

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Magistrates are also concerned about their role in local justice

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being reduced because police are increasingly using on-the-spot

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fines. The Magistrates' Association and the Essex branch do not believe

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that cuts should go ahead at any price. But at the end of the day,

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cutting just to save money but actually having a detrimental

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effect on the community, but we live in an self, we don't believe

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that this is the way to go. To Manchester's courts and

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tribunals Service said keeping under utilised courts open is

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simply not a good use of taxpayers' money. Essex courts have performed

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well of the last year, with 80% of that cases completed within six

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weeks against the national average of 75% we have taken account of the

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longer distance of people travelling from Hoddle by fixing

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bail time of 10:45am instead of Jonathan Djanogli, you said changes

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to the court system would mean, and I quote, a better, more efficient

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and more modern system of justice. With all due respect it looks as

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though things are descending into chaos. We have already delivered

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all of those things. We huge leap value the role of magistrates, and

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the fact is that their workload has fallen by about a third in the last

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five years. One of the reasons was given on your programme, which is

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police handing out tickets. We are looking at that, looking to see

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whether magistrates can have a role in monitoring the police giving

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tickets, but we do have to move with the times. If we look at the

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courts themselves, when we came into Government records were

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operating out something like 60% capacity. Some were only open one

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day a week or every two weeks. In a time when we do need savings, we

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had to deal with a bat. Is it proper justice, though, being

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handed out a fine for a serious offence that you should appear

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before a magistrate for? A lot of things, on-the-spot fines are a

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good way to deal with it, however, a series of violent offence, they

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should be taken to court. It means people avoid getting a police

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record, doesn't it? No, it would be a record, and a caution counts as a

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record as well. But we do think that they should be a role for

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magistrates in overseeing the police in handing out these fines.

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In terms of making the system more efficient, we actually have cases

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going through the courts quicker now than when we came into power.

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Some people are saying that that isn't the case, and they have

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clients... Nationally it is the case - caught by caught it may not

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be... One more point. What about that issue of people travelling

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long distances, not being able to afford the journey, papers being in

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that wrong place? What I say is that firstly 85% of the population

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live within an hour on public transport of the court. Yes, there

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are best courts, but the courts that we have are better. You

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mentioned cases going from Harlow to Chelmsford. That will be a new

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court opening in a month, with five courts in it. It will provide a

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better place to work for magistrates, and indeed court staff,

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and indeed the witnesses and the victims have to go there.

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Let me bring Kelvin Hopkins in. Labour also made changes to the

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courts system, saying they would have closed courts themselves. I

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quote the Sharda Justice Secretary. In Bedfordshire we have had for

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magistrates' courts close in the last few years. Luton is staying

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come I am happy about that, but if the Government focused more on

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unpaid fines, �1.3 billion worth instead of the relatively much

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smaller amount they could save by squeezing the court system, they

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would be doing a better job. Are you happy with the decisions

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that have been made? A agree that unpaid fines is an issue, left from

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the last Government. It is an area of Government we are doing a lot

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about, and the conception rates have huge increase over the last

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year. Coven, unhappy with the way things

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are panning out? No, I think we have high unemployment now, and I

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am concerned about that. Now far our weekly political round-

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-- now for our weekly round-up. It gets MPs huffing and puffing -

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dimension of a family the PM is all too familiar with.

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Our 11-year-old son asked, is Nick Clegg a goodie or a badly?

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There is only so much detail I can take!

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Policing minister Nick Herbert hit the mean streets of its which this

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week, talking about plans to end eight police and crime

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commissioners. The chief constable is operationally independent and

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will remains so. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls visited

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Stevenage's Technology Centre. There is great innovation here.

:53:56.:54:03.

Southend's David AMs talk about fish.

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And yes, the MPs gave the opposition and the press their just

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deserts. I am told they won it after a re

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run cold by the press. Jonathan Djanogli let us talk about

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the police commissioners. Chief come up -- will chief constables

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and commissioners clash? I think it is is very important initiative.

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Local democracy is now moving to the police. If you went round and

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ask people who the current police authority chairmen is, let alone

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members of the police authority, I do not think they would have a clue.

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Now they are going to be asked to elect people.

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Kevin Hopkins, the police authorities do not have been at

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thief, a figurehead is needed? think the police themselves do not

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like the idea of elected commissioners, and I can foresee

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some political problems arising out of that. We may get trivial figures,

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pop musicians or whoever, being elected. I think the system we have

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now works - what we need is more resources.

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We have to lead -- we have to leave it there.

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