Browse content similar to 26/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In the east, the disruption in our courts after cuts and closures, | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
concern that justice is being eroded. | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
:01:45. | :01:45. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2030 seconds | :01:45. | :35:35. | |
And the fight to save our local bus Hello, I'm at Etholle George. | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
Come the up, pressure is building in our magistrates' courts. | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
Magistrates voice concern that cutbacks and court closures are | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
pushing them to the brink. Later we will be pushing those | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
points to this week's guests, conservative justice minister | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
Jonathan Djanogli, and Kelvin Hopkins, Labour's MP for Luton | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
North. Let us start with a quick word | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
about fellow East Anglian MP, the beleaguered Health Secretary Andrew | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
Lansley, who was heckled on his way into Downing Street. Waiting times | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
in the NHS have gone down... Jonathan Djanogli, these health | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
reforms have not won many health professionals over. That was all in | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
a day's work for a minister. The reality is that we need to push | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
these reforms through. We need to have a health service that is going | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
to be freed at the point of delivery, but we need to realise | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
that there are more all the people and more new drugs coming on the | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
market. Why didn't Labour tackle health | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
service reform itself. I do not think it needs reform in this -- in | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
that sense. We need more resources, but the traditional health service, | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
publicly provided unfunded and three at the point of need, I think | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
is what we want to preserve. heard Jonathan Djanogli referred to | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
the lot of a minister. Have you ever had any abuse held at you'd? | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
Only by perhaps people who were more supportive of New Labour than | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
I was. But generally people are very nice. | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
How easy is it to deal with a difficult press? You have to get on | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
with it. You have to realise what the end game is, which in our case | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
is to improve the health service. This is it ring-fenced servers, but | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
we still need to get savings, which is why we are going to be getting | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
rid of the big bureaucracies and giving power back to GPs. | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
We will talk more about but another day. | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
The pressure is being put on the transport minister this week as the | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
fight to save rural bus services steps up. The protest is being led | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
by Norfolk MPs and councillors. A change in the funding formula for | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
concessionary travel has left not just Norfolk but many other rural | :38:02. | :38:10. | |
authorities out of pocket. They have campaigned together for | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
better train services and to save RAF Marham. Now, and offered's | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
politicians have the buses in their sights. Nearly 24,000 people had | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
signed the petition which be delivered to Number Ten. Rural | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
areas should be treated as fairly as city areas. We want that budget | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
more evenly spread. We want to preserve those services and the | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
public transport services for the remote areas, who rely on them. | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
Nor offered pays bus operators 11,500 -- �11.5 million for free | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
off-peak travel for this disabled and pensioners. | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
But a change in the funding formula left Norfolk out of pocket by �4.5 | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
million. The central Government and the | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Prime Minister have both backed the bus pass. That is great because the | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
concessionary bus pass has brought benefits for people across the | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
country. However, it is all very well saying they are backing the | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
bus pass, but unless they find it properly, they are leaving massive | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
hauls in some local authority budget. | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
The change in the form and that means that Moffatt's funding has | :39:17. | :39:26. | |
been cut by 38%, but in Russia it is getting 33%, Northamptonshire | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
18% less. The fear is that with less money to subsidise services, | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
it will only be a matter of time before the less profitable routes | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
close. I am joined by Derek Murphy, the | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Conservative leader of Norfolk County Council. Why are the changes | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
to the funding formula particularly affecting Norfolk? It it does macro | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
is it a matter of geography? have 7,000 roads and a large | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
proportion of our population in rural areas, so if it will hit | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
rural areas hard it will disproportionately hit Norfolk. | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
There are 42 local bus operators, most of them are what people would | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
call small or medium-sized enterprises. For them to absorb the | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
extra cost with the reduction of the concessionary fares Monday, | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
means it is really difficult for them, and as your report suggests, | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
in some of the more rural areas, bus services might not operate. | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
Are you surprised at the level of support from other rural regions? | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
We welcome it enormously. The leader of Devon was there at Number | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
Ten when we submitted our petition, and it has brought in Cumbria, | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
Lancashire, North Yorkshire. This has hit a nerve with people. | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
Do you feel the Government is listening? I believe they are. The | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
Minister of Transport was very sympathetic to our case when we | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
submitted a petition. There is now a local Government finance working | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
group took me revisit the funding formula, and Eric Pickles, the | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
Cabinet minister for local Government, described the funding | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
formula as a dog's breakfast. He is keen for it to be unravelled and be | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
very fair. Kelvin Hopkins, Labour brought in | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
free bus passes and I am told without costing it correctly. | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
Hasn't that correct it -- I am certain the strongly in favour of | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
concessionary bus fares for all who need them. Including those in my | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
own constituency. We are not affected the same as rural areas, | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
but nevertheless there are those living in outlying estates who have | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
to get into town centres and have their troubles supported. So I am | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
absolutely in favour of concessionary bus fares. If | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
Government is to put in more cash, they should do so. | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
A Jonathan Djanogli if the Government had not deprived | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
councils of funds, there would be less of a problem anyway, so what | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
is to be done? I do not think it is Government | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
depriving councils - in Cambridgeshire, about four. It | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
million tickets were issued last year, and it is a great scheme. It | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
is doing a lot for the elderly and rejuvenating bus services. It is | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
very important. That costs �4.9 million of which Government gave | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
about �4 million. The scheme became even more successful, double as | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
many tickets issued - as some. Government has to cap it. We are | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
living in difficult times at the moment, so I totally accept there | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
is a debate to be had about how much central Government should pay | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
and how much should come from the local Government. But at the same | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
time it is a very successful scheme. Let us realise that at the same | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
time we have to be mindful of the cost. | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
Derek Murphy, do you have any sympathy for the case that Jonathan | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
Djanogli puts? I agree it is very successful, but in Norfolk | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
literally half the Government funding that we should receive | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
should be for these concessionary bus fares where we have the | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
shortfall. Next year it will be �5.2 million. We get �11 million, | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
we have lost half. You and I have spoken about cuts many times on | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
this programme. Is there anything that is going to go in the meantime | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
to maintain the services? We are negotiating with those operators to | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
try and sustained as many of the services as we can. On one hand we | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
tried to make as many local communities better link with the | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
outside world by getting super-fast broadband. But at the same time | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
although that is a good thing for local communities, to use their bus | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
can be devastating on a small village. | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
Nearly eight centuries of local justice could be at stake after the | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
reorganisation of our courts system. According to magistrates, cuts to | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
the criminal justice system and a programme of court closures are | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
jeopardising the bedrock of our British society - Justice. The | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
Government says the current system is unsustainable and has closed | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
five county courts and it magistrates courts around the | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
region last year. Harlow magistrates, now only hold trials - | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
for all of their hearings defendants and victims have to | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
travel to Chelmsford. A Lithuanian motorist stands | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
outside Great Yarmouth court after being told by magistrates that they | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
may tear up his case when he next appeared before them. He failed to | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
pay a �2 parking ticket and faces a �70 penalty charge. But at two | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
hearings, interpreters have failed to turn up. It is a waste of public | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
funds to have to travel back and forwards to court, monitor have it | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
adjourned again and again. Fair, open and effective local | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
justice is a long-held tradition in this country. But does in the | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
system have told the BBC they feared court services are fast | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
being eroded. Spending cuts have forced the closure of several | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
courts, and the Government has imposed its numerous changes on the | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
system. Solicitor and Rob New is worried about the closures of | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
magistrates' courts, but he says the reduction in staffing and | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
administration problems are causing delays. I have clients now who are | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
on bail for significant periods of time, reported to police stations, | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
been subject to curfews, and then you have victims who are themselves | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
have made reports to the police of crimes against them, and are not | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
seeing their cases being dealt with sometimes for half a year or more. | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
It is not hard to witness problems in the system. You just have to sit | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
in court and watch. In court rooms three and four here, the following | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
happened - two cases adjourned through lack of court time, a youth | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
trial stopped for the same reason. Two cases adjourned because they | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
could not get interpreters - one of these cases had been halted for a | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
second time. And one man left hanging around the court building | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
for eight hours waiting for his case to be heard, he pleaded not | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
guilty to theft. His case - adjourned. It is leading to a huge | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
backlog of cases in the sister. Jason appeared in court accused of | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
not having a driving licence. have just adjourned it. | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
In it emerged that Mr Shaw own thousands in unpaid court finds for | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
various driving offences. Why have you not paid? I have not bothered | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
paying them. Although 100 miles away in Harlow, | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
the court there will hold trials only from April, minute all other | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
cases will be heard 20 miles away in Chelmsford. High Low has large | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
areas of deprivation. Magistrates feared many defendants will not be | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
able to afford the cost of public transport to reach the new court. | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Because of the difficulty of getting into Chelmsford from Harlow, | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
you have an awful lot of offenders and defendants who were just not | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
turn up. They will say, I could not afford it, but actually we are | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
setting them up to fail, almost, under the circumstances. What | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
happens then? There will probably be a warrant, which will be given | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
out for their arrest, so the police in harder will have to arrest them | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
or bring them all the way up to Chelmsford because they have to | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
appear within 24 hours of arrest. That is taking them out of their | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
area, it is a cost to the police. To many in the courts, local | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
justice is becoming less local, and more remote. | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
There was a time when the Crown Prosecution Service was within the | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
building, so if somebody arrives in custody the papers could be very | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
quickly located and be dealt with. Now, everything is site -- | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
centralised, and the CPS offices for this area or up on a business | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
park. It is not easy to get Hall of the things. | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
Magistrates are also concerned about their role in local justice | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
being reduced because police are increasingly using on-the-spot | :48:21. | :48:28. | |
fines. The Magistrates' Association and the Essex branch do not believe | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
that cuts should go ahead at any price. But at the end of the day, | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
cutting just to save money but actually having a detrimental | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
effect on the community, but we live in an self, we don't believe | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
that this is the way to go. To Manchester's courts and | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
tribunals Service said keeping under utilised courts open is | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
simply not a good use of taxpayers' money. Essex courts have performed | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
well of the last year, with 80% of that cases completed within six | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
weeks against the national average of 75% we have taken account of the | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
longer distance of people travelling from Hoddle by fixing | :49:10. | :49:20. | |
:49:20. | :49:23. | ||
bail time of 10:45am instead of Jonathan Djanogli, you said changes | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
to the court system would mean, and I quote, a better, more efficient | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
and more modern system of justice. With all due respect it looks as | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
though things are descending into chaos. We have already delivered | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
all of those things. We huge leap value the role of magistrates, and | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
the fact is that their workload has fallen by about a third in the last | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
five years. One of the reasons was given on your programme, which is | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
police handing out tickets. We are looking at that, looking to see | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
whether magistrates can have a role in monitoring the police giving | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
tickets, but we do have to move with the times. If we look at the | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
courts themselves, when we came into Government records were | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
operating out something like 60% capacity. Some were only open one | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
day a week or every two weeks. In a time when we do need savings, we | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
had to deal with a bat. Is it proper justice, though, being | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
handed out a fine for a serious offence that you should appear | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
before a magistrate for? A lot of things, on-the-spot fines are a | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
good way to deal with it, however, a series of violent offence, they | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
should be taken to court. It means people avoid getting a police | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
record, doesn't it? No, it would be a record, and a caution counts as a | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
record as well. But we do think that they should be a role for | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
magistrates in overseeing the police in handing out these fines. | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
In terms of making the system more efficient, we actually have cases | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
going through the courts quicker now than when we came into power. | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
Some people are saying that that isn't the case, and they have | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
clients... Nationally it is the case - caught by caught it may not | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
be... One more point. What about that issue of people travelling | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
long distances, not being able to afford the journey, papers being in | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
that wrong place? What I say is that firstly 85% of the population | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
live within an hour on public transport of the court. Yes, there | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
are best courts, but the courts that we have are better. You | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
mentioned cases going from Harlow to Chelmsford. That will be a new | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
court opening in a month, with five courts in it. It will provide a | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
better place to work for magistrates, and indeed court staff, | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
and indeed the witnesses and the victims have to go there. | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
Let me bring Kelvin Hopkins in. Labour also made changes to the | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
courts system, saying they would have closed courts themselves. I | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
quote the Sharda Justice Secretary. In Bedfordshire we have had for | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
magistrates' courts close in the last few years. Luton is staying | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
come I am happy about that, but if the Government focused more on | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
unpaid fines, �1.3 billion worth instead of the relatively much | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
smaller amount they could save by squeezing the court system, they | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
would be doing a better job. Are you happy with the decisions | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
that have been made? A agree that unpaid fines is an issue, left from | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
the last Government. It is an area of Government we are doing a lot | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
about, and the conception rates have huge increase over the last | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
year. Coven, unhappy with the way things | :52:48. | :52:56. | |
are panning out? No, I think we have high unemployment now, and I | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
am concerned about that. Now far our weekly political round- | :53:00. | :53:10. | |
:53:10. | :53:13. | ||
-- now for our weekly round-up. It gets MPs huffing and puffing - | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
dimension of a family the PM is all too familiar with. | :53:20. | :53:30. | |
Our 11-year-old son asked, is Nick Clegg a goodie or a badly? | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
There is only so much detail I can take! | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Policing minister Nick Herbert hit the mean streets of its which this | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
week, talking about plans to end eight police and crime | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
commissioners. The chief constable is operationally independent and | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
will remains so. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls visited | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
Stevenage's Technology Centre. There is great innovation here. | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
Southend's David AMs talk about fish. | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
And yes, the MPs gave the opposition and the press their just | :54:08. | :54:15. | |
deserts. I am told they won it after a re | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
run cold by the press. Jonathan Djanogli let us talk about | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
the police commissioners. Chief come up -- will chief constables | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
and commissioners clash? I think it is is very important initiative. | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
Local democracy is now moving to the police. If you went round and | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
ask people who the current police authority chairmen is, let alone | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
members of the police authority, I do not think they would have a clue. | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
Now they are going to be asked to elect people. | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
Kevin Hopkins, the police authorities do not have been at | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
thief, a figurehead is needed? think the police themselves do not | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
like the idea of elected commissioners, and I can foresee | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
some political problems arising out of that. We may get trivial figures, | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
pop musicians or whoever, being elected. I think the system we have | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
now works - what we need is more resources. | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
We have to lead -- we have to leave it there. | :55:14. | :55:19. |