06/07/2014 Sunday Politics East


06/07/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:34.:00:40.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 201 .

:00:41.:00:43.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:44.:00:46.

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

:00:47.:00:51.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:52.:00:54.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:55.:00:58.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:00:59.:01:00.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:01.:01:06.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:07.:01:10.

In hearing the east, new session for MPs.

:01:11.:01:30.

And with me throughout the show three top-flight political

:01:31.:01:34.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:35.:01:37.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:38.:01:51.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:52.:01:53.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:54.:01:56.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:57.:01:59.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:00.:02:01.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:02.:02:03.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:04.:02:09.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

:02:10.:02:14.

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:15.:02:19.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:20.:02:25.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:26.:02:29.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:30.:02:33.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:34.:02:36.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

:02:37.:02:41.

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:42.:02:46.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

:02:47.:02:49.

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:50.:02:54.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:55.:02:59.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:00.:03:02.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:03.:03:06.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:07.:03:11.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:12.:03:15.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:16.:03:19.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:20.:03:23.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:24.:03:27.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

:03:28.:03:34.

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:35.:03:36.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:37.:03:40.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:41.:03:45.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:46.:03:49.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:50.:03:53.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

:03:54.:03:56.

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:57.:04:02.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:03.:04:03.

United States making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:06.

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

:04:07.:04:09.

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:09.

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:16.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:17.:04:20.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

:04:21.:04:20.

inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the

:04:21.:04:34.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

:04:35.:04:40.

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

:04:41.:04:42.

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:43.:04:50.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

:04:51.:04:54.

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

:04:55.:04:54.

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:55.:05:02.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:03.:05:02.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

:05:03.:05:05.

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

:05:06.:05:11.

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do I

:05:12.:05:15.

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

:05:16.:05:19.

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

:05:20.:05:23.

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

:05:24.:05:27.

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

:05:28.:05:30.

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

:05:31.:05:36.

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

:05:37.:05:41.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

:05:42.:05:43.

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

:05:44.:05:45.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

:05:46.:05:48.

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

:05:49.:05:50.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

:05:51.:05:52.

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

:05:53.:05:59.

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

:06:00.:06:02.

So why is there still talk of austerity

:06:03.:06:04.

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

:06:05.:06:09.

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

:06:10.:06:16.

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

:06:17.:06:25.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

:06:26.:06:29.

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

:06:30.:06:32.

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

:06:33.:06:38.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

:06:39.:06:41.

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

:06:42.:06:49.

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

:06:50.:06:52.

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

:06:53.:07:00.

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

:07:01.:07:03.

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

:07:04.:07:23.

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

:07:24.:07:28.

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

:07:29.:07:33.

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

:07:34.:07:37.

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

:07:38.:07:42.

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

:07:43.:07:46.

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

:07:47.:07:53.

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

:07:54.:07:58.

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

:07:59.:08:03.

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

:08:04.:08:07.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

:08:08.:08:11.

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

:08:12.:08:15.

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

:08:16.:08:19.

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

:08:20.:08:22.

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

:08:23.:08:25.

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

:08:26.:08:28.

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

:08:29.:08:32.

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

:08:33.:08:36.

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

:08:37.:08:40.

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax

:08:41.:08:45.

cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big

:08:46.:08:51.

corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local

:08:52.:08:57.

government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women

:08:58.:08:59.

who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We

:09:00.:09:03.

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

:09:04.:09:07.

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:08.:09:11.

You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,

:09:12.:09:15.

many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases

:09:16.:09:23.

since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food

:09:24.:09:28.

costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people

:09:29.:09:35.

from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average

:09:36.:09:40.

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

:09:41.:09:43.

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

:09:44.:09:48.

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

:09:49.:09:52.

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

:09:53.:09:56.

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

:09:57.:10:00.

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

:10:01.:10:04.

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

:10:05.:10:09.

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010

:10:10.:10:15.

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

:10:16.:10:19.

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

:10:20.:10:24.

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

:10:25.:10:29.

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

:10:30.:10:33.

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

:10:34.:10:36.

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

:10:37.:10:43.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

:10:44.:10:51.

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

:10:52.:10:58.

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

:10:59.:11:01.

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

:11:02.:11:04.

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

:11:05.:11:09.

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

:11:10.:11:17.

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

:11:18.:11:22.

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

:11:23.:11:31.

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

:11:32.:11:35.

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

:11:36.:11:39.

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

:11:40.:11:48.

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

:11:49.:11:54.

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

:11:55.:11:57.

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

:11:58.:12:03.

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

:12:04.:12:08.

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

:12:09.:12:16.

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

:12:17.:12:21.

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

:12:22.:12:24.

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

:12:25.:12:29.

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

:12:30.:12:32.

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

:12:33.:12:36.

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

:12:37.:12:40.

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

:12:41.:12:44.

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

:12:45.:12:49.

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

:12:50.:12:55.

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

:12:56.:13:00.

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament. .

:13:01.:13:05.

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

:13:06.:13:14.

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

:13:15.:13:18.

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

:13:19.:13:22.

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

:13:23.:13:25.

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

:13:26.:13:29.

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

:13:30.:13:32.

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

:13:33.:13:37.

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

:13:38.:13:46.

about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

:13:47.:13:51.

service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

:13:52.:13:58.

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

:13:59.:14:09.

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

:14:10.:14:16.

final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

:14:17.:14:19.

this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

:14:20.:14:24.

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s planning a big crackdown on the

:14:25.:14:29.

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

:14:30.:14:34.

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

:14:35.:14:38.

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

:14:39.:14:42.

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

:14:43.:14:44.

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

:14:45.:14:48.

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

:14:49.:14:51.

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed

:14:52.:14:53.

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

:14:54.:14:57.

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

:14:58.:14:59.

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

:15:00.:15:01.

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

:15:02.:15:24.

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

:15:25.:15:30.

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

:15:31.:15:35.

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

:15:36.:15:39.

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

:15:40.:15:44.

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

:15:45.:15:50.

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

:15:51.:15:56.

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

:15:57.:16:00.

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

:16:01.:16:06.

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

:16:07.:16:12.

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

:16:13.:16:17.

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

:16:18.:16:20.

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

:16:21.:16:27.

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

:16:28.:16:33.

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

:16:34.:16:39.

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

:16:40.:16:44.

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

:16:45.:16:52.

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

:16:53.:16:55.

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

:16:56.:17:00.

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

:17:01.:17:08.

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 199 ,

:17:09.:17:12.

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

:17:13.:17:17.

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

:17:18.:17:20.

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

:17:21.:17:27.

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers I

:17:28.:17:31.

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

:17:32.:17:36.

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

:17:37.:17:40.

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

:17:41.:17:44.

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

:17:45.:17:50.

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

:17:51.:17:55.

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

:17:56.:18:02.

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

:18:03.:18:06.

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

:18:07.:18:09.

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

:18:10.:18:15.

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

:18:16.:18:20.

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

:18:21.:18:26.

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

:18:27.:18:32.

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

:18:33.:18:36.

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

:18:37.:18:42.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

:18:43.:18:45.

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

:18:46.:18:49.

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

:18:50.:18:56.

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

:18:57.:19:00.

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

:19:01.:19:05.

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

:19:06.:19:10.

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

:19:11.:19:19.

arguments are dominating people s thinking, the polls show, that is

:19:20.:19:38.

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

:19:39.:19:41.

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

:19:42.:19:48.

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

:19:49.:19:53.

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

:19:54.:19:57.

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

:19:58.:20:01.

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

:20:02.:20:08.

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

:20:09.:20:12.

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

:20:13.:20:19.

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

:20:20.:20:24.

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

:20:25.:20:29.

years to get into Europe. I don t want that uncertainty or the

:20:30.:20:33.

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

:20:34.:20:40.

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

:20:41.:20:46.

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

:20:47.:20:50.

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

:20:51.:21:00.

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

:21:01.:21:05.

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

:21:06.:21:11.

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

:21:12.:21:17.

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

:21:18.:21:20.

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

:21:21.:21:25.

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

:21:26.:21:32.

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

:21:33.:21:40.

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

:21:41.:21:47.

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

:21:48.:21:51.

where you remain part of the UK There is a world of difference

:21:52.:21:57.

between that and making a break where Scotland becomes a foreign

:21:58.:22:01.

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

:22:02.:22:06.

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

:22:07.:22:15.

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

:22:16.:22:20.

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

:22:21.:22:26.

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

:22:27.:22:30.

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

:22:31.:22:35.

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

:22:36.:22:41.

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

:22:42.:22:47.

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

:22:48.:22:51.

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

:22:52.:22:57.

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

:22:58.:23:02.

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

:23:03.:23:06.

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

:23:07.:23:10.

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

:23:11.:23:16.

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

:23:17.:23:22.

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

:23:23.:23:38.

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

:23:39.:23:47.

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

:23:48.:23:52.

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

:23:53.:23:58.

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

:23:59.:24:04.

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

:24:05.:24:13.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

:24:14.:24:17.

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

:24:18.:24:22.

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

:24:23.:24:27.

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

:24:28.:24:32.

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

:24:33.:24:37.

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

:24:38.:24:45.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon

:24:46.:24:53.

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

:24:54.:24:57.

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

:24:58.:25:02.

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

:25:03.:25:08.

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

:25:09.:25:17.

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

:25:18.:25:32.

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

:25:33.:25:36.

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

:25:37.:25:40.

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

:25:41.:25:45.

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

:25:46.:25:50.

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

:25:51.:25:56.

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

:25:57.:26:00.

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

:26:01.:26:06.

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

:26:07.:26:11.

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

:26:12.:26:17.

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

:26:18.:26:21.

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

:26:22.:26:30.

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

:26:31.:26:36.

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

:26:37.:26:41.

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

:26:42.:26:46.

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

:26:47.:26:51.

itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party

:26:52.:26:57.

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

:26:58.:27:06.

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

:27:07.:27:09.

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

:27:10.:27:14.

next election because if we don t people will vote for the Tories

:27:15.:27:19.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

:27:20.:27:25.

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

:27:26.:27:31.

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

:27:32.:27:36.

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

:27:37.:27:40.

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

:27:41.:28:09.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

:28:10.:28:13.

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

:28:14.:28:16.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

:28:17.:28:21.

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

:28:22.:28:26.

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

:28:27.:28:29.

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things We

:28:30.:28:34.

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

:28:35.:28:39.

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

:28:40.:28:44.

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

:28:45.:28:49.

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

:28:50.:28:53.

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

:28:54.:28:56.

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

:28:57.:28:59.

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

:29:00.:29:03.

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

:29:04.:29:08.

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

:29:09.:29:13.

are going to finish with an old classic now.

:29:14.:29:15.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

:29:16.:29:18.

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

:29:19.:29:22.

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

:29:23.:29:24.

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

:29:25.:29:27.

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

:29:28.:29:31.

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

:29:32.:29:40.

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

:29:41.:29:56.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

:29:57.:30:01.

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

:30:02.:30:05.

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

:30:06.:30:08.

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

:30:09.:30:12.

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

:30:13.:30:17.

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

:30:18.:30:22.

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

:30:23.:30:28.

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

:30:29.:30:32.

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

:30:33.:30:36.

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

:30:37.:30:41.

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

:30:42.:30:44.

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

:30:45.:30:50.

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

:30:51.:30:53.

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

:30:54.:30:59.

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that and

:31:00.:31:03.

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

:31:04.:31:06.

thorough, well resourced. I can t think of anything more horrendous, I

:31:07.:31:12.

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

:31:13.:31:15.

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

:31:16.:31:19.

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

:31:20.:31:23.

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

:31:24.:31:29.

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

:31:30.:31:31.

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

:31:32.:31:37.

what other inquiries take place A number of other inquiries are taking

:31:38.:31:41.

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

:31:42.:31:44.

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

:31:45.:31:48.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

:31:49.:31:50.

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

:31:51.:31:54.

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

:31:55.:31:59.

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

:32:00.:32:03.

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

:32:04.:32:07.

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

:32:08.:32:13.

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

:32:14.:32:18.

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

:32:19.:32:21.

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

:32:22.:32:25.

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

:32:26.:32:29.

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

:32:30.:32:33.

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

:32:34.:32:36.

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

:32:37.:32:39.

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

:32:40.:32:41.

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

:32:42.:32:45.

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

:32:46.:32:48.

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

:32:49.:32:56.

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

:32:57.:32:59.

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

:33:00.:33:05.

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

:33:06.:33:12.

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

:33:13.:33:17.

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

:33:18.:33:22.

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

:33:23.:33:25.

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

:33:26.:33:28.

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

:33:29.:33:31.

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

:33:32.:33:35.

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

:33:36.:33:40.

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

:33:41.:33:47.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

:33:48.:33:52.

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

:33:53.:34:02.

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

:34:03.:34:07.

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

:34:08.:34:11.

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

:34:12.:34:15.

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

:34:16.:34:21.

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

:34:22.:34:26.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It

:34:27.:34:28.

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

:34:29.:34:32.

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

:34:33.:34:36.

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

:34:37.:34:41.

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

:34:42.:34:46.

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

:34:47.:34:52.

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

:34:53.:34:59.

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

:35:00.:35:04.

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

:35:05.:35:10.

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

:35:11.:35:14.

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

:35:15.:35:18.

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

:35:19.:35:21.

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

:35:22.:35:27.

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

:35:28.:35:30.

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

:35:31.:35:33.

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

:35:34.:35:37.

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

:35:38.:35:42.

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

:35:43.:35:45.

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

:35:46.:35:50.

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

:35:51.:35:54.

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

:35:55.:36:00.

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

:36:01.:36:03.

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

:36:04.:36:08.

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

:36:09.:36:14.

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

:36:15.:36:22.

you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:23.:36:26.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:27.:36:29.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:30.:36:34.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:35.:36:38.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:39.:36:42.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:43.:36:45.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:46.:36:49.

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

:36:50.:36:52.

good reason for that. They didn t win the election. The left say that

:36:53.:36:57.

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in day

:36:58.:37:01.

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

:37:02.:37:06.

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

:37:07.:37:14.

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

:37:15.:37:20.

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

:37:21.:37:25.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

:37:26.:37:30.

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

:37:31.:37:33.

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

:37:34.:37:37.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

:37:38.:37:40.

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

:37:41.:37:45.

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change

:37:46.:37:51.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

:37:52.:37:54.

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

:37:55.:38:02.

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

:38:03.:38:07.

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

:38:08.:38:10.

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

:38:11.:38:14.

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

:38:15.:38:17.

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

:38:18.:38:23.

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

:38:24.:38:28.

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

:38:29.:38:33.

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

:38:34.:38:43.

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

:38:44.:38:48.

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

:38:49.:38:53.

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

:38:54.:38:57.

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

:38:58.:39:01.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:02.:39:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:05.:39:08.

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:39:09.:39:09.

the Week Politics east, I am Etholle George.

:39:10.:39:25.

Later, work may resume for LEPs but it is not business as usual. With

:39:26.:39:29.

more UKIP members than ever before there are questions over whdther the

:39:30.:39:32.

work will get done. What is the point of being `n

:39:33.:39:35.

elected member of the Europdan Parliament unless you get involved

:39:36.:39:39.

in the Parliament itself, shape the legislation?

:39:40.:39:42.

And how is this MP's local referendum on our future in the EU

:39:43.:39:44.

going? Well, who better to ask than Peter

:39:45.:39:53.

bone, the Conservative MP for Wellingborough, handily in the

:39:54.:40:00.

studio with us. Along with Bob blizzard, Labour's Parliamentary

:40:01.:40:08.

candidate for Waveney. Let's start with income tax, because

:40:09.:40:13.

it was first mooted by an MP last year when he wrote, one ide` worth

:40:14.:40:18.

considering is merging National Insurance and income taxed hnto just

:40:19.:40:19.

one tax. Well, Suffolk MP Ben Gummer has also

:40:20.:40:34.

been campaigning and the idda seems to have caught the Chancellor's I is

:40:35.:40:40.

you can see from the times. He is looking at the idea for the

:40:41.:40:43.

general election. Bob blizzard, if you roll the two

:40:44.:40:47.

together it is much more tr`nsparent for the public, is it not?

:40:48.:40:57.

think they are paying into ` pot for misnomer and some people

:40:58.:41:01.

think they are paying into ` pot for their pension. It is more or less a

:41:02.:41:02.

tax, but one of the problems with merging it with income tax hs you

:41:03.:41:06.

would have to make up the ploy's contribution to National Insurance

:41:07.:41:09.

and you would end up with a hefty easy rate of income tax that would

:41:10.:41:14.

not be very popular. What about the principle, Peter Bone, the principle

:41:15.:41:22.

established in 1911, Nation`l Insurance to pay for health. What

:41:23.:41:29.

about that principle of loshng that special element that people are

:41:30.:41:35.

quite aware of? People think this is going into a pot to pay for your

:41:36.:41:40.

retirement or whatever and ht isn't. It is effectively just another

:41:41.:41:47.

income tax. There are a lot of problems in combining the two. It

:41:48.:41:53.

will be less transparent to people who level of tax they are p`ying,

:41:54.:41:55.

also. What about the point of havhng to

:41:56.:42:00.

raise the rate, because if xou combine two taxes the overall rate

:42:01.:42:02.

will go up. And the amount that lawyers are to

:42:03.:42:09.

Schmeichel `` that employers are paying.

:42:10.:42:14.

It is direct taxes, that is one reason for doing it, for

:42:15.:42:18.

transparency's sake. Bob's point is different because part of N`tional

:42:19.:42:23.

Insurance is paid by the employer, and I assume they would continue to

:42:24.:42:27.

pay that tax in one form or another. I think it is a good idea, the

:42:28.:42:31.

technical problems can be overcome and I wish them well with it.

:42:32.:42:36.

One Bill the government would like to bring it down is its contribution

:42:37.:42:43.

to Europe. The climate may have changed, with a

:42:44.:42:48.

lot more UKIP MEPs, including three from the east, but the other parties

:42:49.:42:52.

say that is going to mean more work for everyone else.

:42:53.:42:58.

Andrew Sinclair has been to Strasberg.

:42:59.:43:04.

For those who believe in thd European Parliament, this h`s been

:43:05.:43:09.

an important week. The start of a new five`year session,

:43:10.:43:11.

representatives from 28 nathons working together for the good of

:43:12.:43:15.

Europe. The reality, though, is that this

:43:16.:43:19.

Parliament is more Eurosceptic than ever before, which is why UKIP has

:43:20.:43:24.

been getting so much attenthon this week.

:43:25.:43:26.

Their MPs protested when thd European anthem was played hn the

:43:27.:43:30.

chamber. The Party is saying its main role you will be to expose what

:43:31.:43:40.

is wrong with the EU, not ldgislate. In some ways, MEPs are a delocratic

:43:41.:43:44.

pretence, when the decisions are made behind closed doors by the

:43:45.:43:47.

commission and frankly therd is very little democracy.

:43:48.:43:51.

During the lifetime of this new Parliament there will be a big

:43:52.:43:54.

debate about Britain's role in Europe and may even be a referendum

:43:55.:43:59.

on leaving. Our relationship will probably change in the next five

:44:00.:44:02.

years. But in the meantime the EU needs to be government as Mhchael

:44:03.:44:07.

needs to be governed, and whether we like it or not a lot of the

:44:08.:44:10.

legislation past year had a direct effect on our lives in Brit`in. The

:44:11.:44:16.

question is, what role will our local representatives be pl`ying in

:44:17.:44:20.

this new European Parliament? There is now just one British

:44:21.:44:24.

Liberal Democrat here. She represents the south`east, hncluding

:44:25.:44:29.

Milton Keynes. What is it like being the l`st Lib

:44:30.:44:32.

Dem standing? Well, it is very sad for me, I have

:44:33.:44:37.

lost some very good, hard`working colleagues, who I have lent one and

:44:38.:44:41.

we all lent on each other, dxperts in different fields. It is ` sad

:44:42.:44:49.

day, two, for the country. Xou keep's voices not been heard around

:44:50.:44:53.

the table when we are making decisions.

:44:54.:44:55.

There is a worry among many of her colleagues that UKIP will bd quick

:44:56.:44:59.

to point out what is wrong with Parliament but will not be

:45:00.:45:02.

interested in the nitty`gritty. The detail of legislation is very

:45:03.:45:06.

important and we have to make sure that we are paying attention the

:45:07.:45:11.

committees, working hard and doing our bit and delivering results.

:45:12.:45:16.

In the last five years, I looked at over 150 different pieces of EU

:45:17.:45:23.

law, from car exhaust is to vacuum cleaners to ranking to medical

:45:24.:45:28.

research, and I wrote amendlents on behalf of different companids,

:45:29.:45:31.

concerns and groups, table them and argued them and got them into law.

:45:32.:45:35.

And if you hadn't done that businesses in our region wotld have

:45:36.:45:38.

been affected? Yes, because, let's face it, the

:45:39.:45:42.

French and Germans are going to do it, you are in a market, yot have to

:45:43.:45:46.

defend your corner if you w`nt to be able to have those opportunhties.

:45:47.:45:51.

One of our leading UKIP members in the region says he is the f`rming

:45:52.:45:54.

expat. He did not table any amendmdnts on

:45:55.:45:58.

farming law, so I had to do it. We are going to have a weaker voice

:45:59.:46:02.

unless everyone is prepared to roll up their sleeves and help.

:46:03.:46:07.

It is not just new laws. In the next few years there will be important

:46:08.:46:11.

decisions made about funding, particularly for science and

:46:12.:46:13.

transport schemes where our region has done well in the past.

:46:14.:46:18.

What is the point of being `n elected member of the Europdan

:46:19.:46:20.

Parliament unless you get involved, shape the legislation that comes

:46:21.:46:23.

out, stop the bad things th`t we don't want to happen but also help

:46:24.:46:32.

get that ?250 million into our businesses and universities and

:46:33.:46:35.

voluntary organisations? If UKIP do not turn up, they will not get any

:46:36.:46:39.

of the benefits or stop any of the things they say they are ag`inst.

:46:40.:46:43.

More than half a million people voted for UKIP in our region, more

:46:44.:46:48.

than for any other Party. It believes it has a mandate to be you

:46:49.:46:52.

and draw attention to what hs wrong with Europe. But many believe,

:46:53.:46:57.

whatever your views, if you're a member of the European Parlhament

:46:58.:47:00.

you should surely be prepardd to work that Parliament.

:47:01.:47:05.

I'm going to ask some of those questions raised in the fill to

:47:06.:47:09.

Patrick Flynn, who is UKIP LEP for the East.

:47:10.:47:14.

As a Party, you are not doing your bit, are you?

:47:15.:47:18.

Actually, I have only been `n MEP for four days, so it is early to be

:47:19.:47:22.

condemning me on my record. I did not see you, I said as a

:47:23.:47:28.

Party. I completely disagred. If we take other parties for the

:47:29.:47:36.

region, Vicky Ford, doing work, what she means is nodding through the EU

:47:37.:47:40.

taking over the competency on financial services and imperilling

:47:41.:47:45.

Britain's most successful industry. Geoffrey Van Auden's work w`s

:47:46.:47:50.

ushering in open door immigration from Bulgaria. I do not call that

:47:51.:47:52.

work. We do not have her with us, but he

:47:53.:47:56.

has tabled... She has slapped us off without us

:47:57.:48:00.

being here to defend ourselves. Vicky Ford has put through 053

:48:01.:48:04.

amendments. Stewart Agnew, though he has a

:48:05.:48:08.

better voting record, had only put forward one amendment.

:48:09.:48:11.

Well, Stewart has used his dxpertise to intervene and help shape the

:48:12.:48:17.

debate on the agriculture committees.

:48:18.:48:19.

What is the point in intervdning if you're not good to follow that

:48:20.:48:22.

through and make amendments? Vicky Ford does not know whdther she

:48:23.:48:27.

wants to be in or out of thd EU and I would suggest to Vicky Ford and

:48:28.:48:30.

Geoffrey Van Auden, they have just gone through an election and got

:48:31.:48:36.

their backsides spanked by TKIP With all respect to them, pdrhaps if

:48:37.:48:41.

the Conservative Party had lore Eurosceptic candidates like Peter

:48:42.:48:48.

Bone here and a few `` a conscious Europhiles like Vicky Ford, they

:48:49.:48:55.

might not have done so badlx. Why not get involved?

:48:56.:48:59.

I was involved in the chambdr of week, I hardly ever saw Richard

:49:00.:49:02.

Howard there. Vicky Ford was not even present when her own group

:49:03.:49:06.

leader was making a speech, which I thought rather rude.

:49:07.:49:10.

What are your plans for, funding, for example?

:49:11.:49:15.

Again, this is Richard Howard's buzzword. European funding, he goes

:49:16.:49:20.

on and on about it without telling the people they are getting around

:49:21.:49:23.

half of their own money back and he seems proud of this. We will fight

:49:24.:49:28.

to make the European Union less intolerable and less bad for Britain

:49:29.:49:32.

while we are stuck in it, btt our mandate is to go over there and

:49:33.:49:37.

fight to get Britain out. Will you fight for legislathon that

:49:38.:49:41.

is detrimental for UKIP `` TK plc, and in particularly the East, if you

:49:42.:49:46.

have to question might we whll fight to oppose legislation that will make

:49:47.:49:49.

things worse within the European Union.

:49:50.:49:53.

If there are amendments that make a bit of legislation or less bad, then

:49:54.:49:56.

we will consider supporting those amendments, and that will bd a new

:49:57.:50:00.

approach for UKIP. You are saying that is a new policy?

:50:01.:50:04.

On occasion you will make alendments if need be?

:50:05.:50:08.

On occasion, we will. Rather than opposing everything, we will oppose

:50:09.:50:14.

the prime legislation... Now you are getting involved in

:50:15.:50:17.

Europe, now you are actuallx getting involved in what is going on.

:50:18.:50:23.

It is a second line of defence for Britain against primary leghslation

:50:24.:50:25.

and if we think something is going to go through and an amendmdnt will

:50:26.:50:30.

make something less bad, we will consider that on its merits, that is

:50:31.:50:41.

a development of the UKIP position. UKIP was democratically elected

:50:42.:50:44.

they have their mandate, wh`t is not to like?

:50:45.:50:47.

But I think the real point here is that Nigel Farage has made his name

:50:48.:50:50.

by presenting himself as solething different, not a politician like the

:50:51.:50:56.

rest. What we can see is th`t he is a politician. He has been in the

:50:57.:50:59.

European Parliament for sevdral years now taking over 100,000 a year

:51:00.:51:04.

plus staff from an organisation he does not believe in, then not

:51:05.:51:08.

putting in the work. That is a bad advert for politics.

:51:09.:51:11.

I don't think anyone can accuse Nigel Farage of not putting in the

:51:12.:51:18.

work. For constituents? His consthtuents

:51:19.:51:22.

have giving him a thumping big mandate just in May, so that they

:51:23.:51:24.

are obviously quite pleased with him.

:51:25.:51:28.

The question is, is he workhng for the constituents or just advancing

:51:29.:51:32.

UKIP? Well, that is for the consthtuents

:51:33.:51:37.

to judge, and they have. Peter Bone, people sent an `nti`EU

:51:38.:51:42.

message but did not vote for the Conservatives, why?

:51:43.:51:44.

You're absolutely right. Thd combined vote of UKIP massively sent

:51:45.:51:50.

a message saying the Europe`n Union needs to be reformed and sole of us

:51:51.:51:53.

believe we should come out. The thing is, there is no difference

:51:54.:51:58.

between what Patrick thinks and what I think.

:51:59.:52:03.

Perhaps you are in the wrong Party? Now you have raised an issud, should

:52:04.:52:07.

the parties be working together I am raising an issue about you

:52:08.:52:11.

specifically being in the wrong Party.

:52:12.:52:13.

I could argue Patrick could be in my Party for his views. With all due

:52:14.:52:20.

respect, Bob has this view of a European superstate and there should

:52:21.:52:24.

not be a referendum, we shotld throw away British money and we should

:52:25.:52:26.

roll over every time, and that is fine, that is a point of vidw, but

:52:27.:52:30.

we take a different point of view. At the moment, if we carry on like

:52:31.:52:35.

this, UKIP will get a big vote, the Conservatives will get a big vote,

:52:36.:52:38.

but unfortunately we will ldt Labour into the middle and that is a

:52:39.:52:41.

danger. What about the reaction at the

:52:42.:52:44.

European elections, because Labour did not come off very well?

:52:45.:52:50.

We lost the European elections in 1999 and 2004 but shortly after we

:52:51.:52:55.

bounced back and add victorx in the elections.

:52:56.:52:59.

But not for your policies in Europe, though, that might hndicate

:53:00.:53:02.

that. I think the European elections are a

:53:03.:53:06.

bit of a law unto themselves. You get a low turnout and high

:53:07.:53:09.

proportion of the people who turn out other bee in their bonndt about

:53:10.:53:13.

Europe, so we get the results that we have. History shows European

:53:14.:53:17.

results are rather different from Westminster results.

:53:18.:53:21.

Patrick, what is your posithon because you want to fight a

:53:22.:53:24.

Westminster seat but you ard taking and any people as Michael s`lary

:53:25.:53:28.

whilst thinking about doing that. I have been elected as an MDP, I

:53:29.:53:31.

have every right to be paid at the same rate as the other MEPs.

:53:32.:53:37.

And fight a seat at the samd time? I am considering my options, I am

:53:38.:53:41.

not down for a seat at all `t the moment. I am still reforming the

:53:42.:53:46.

duties... Are you saying you will not fight a

:53:47.:53:50.

Westminster seat? I have not decided yet. You will

:53:51.:53:55.

continue to take the MEP's salary, funding you through that potential

:53:56.:53:57.

fight? I do not really follow the logic of

:53:58.:54:01.

the question. I have been elected as an MEP and I am serving on the

:54:02.:54:04.

mandate on which I was elected. I may or may not fight a seat at the

:54:05.:54:09.

general election next year. You saying candidates who may fhght the

:54:10.:54:13.

general election next year should not be paid for their day jobs?

:54:14.:54:17.

It depends how much of your time you're going to be contributing to

:54:18.:54:20.

your work as an MEP and how much time you will fight the seat?

:54:21.:54:25.

What do you mean spend fighting the seat? I have not put my namd down

:54:26.:54:31.

for any seat, I am an electdd MEP, I was in Strasbourg this week,

:54:32.:54:34.

Brussels last week and next week, I am doing my job and I have not put

:54:35.:54:39.

my name down for a Parliament a receipt or even applied for one yet.

:54:40.:54:43.

The general election is next May, so are you saying I should work for

:54:44.:54:48.

nothing while I think about being a candidate from next March or April?

:54:49.:54:53.

We'll see what happens next, thank you very much for joining us.

:54:54.:54:57.

As promised, we will be spe`king to Peter Bone about his own ballot on

:54:58.:55:00.

the EU. The EU. He and fellow

:55:01.:55:05.

Northamptonshire MP Philip @ldbourne are holding their own referdndum on

:55:06.:55:11.

staying in the EU. It will not have any legal force but could ptt

:55:12.:55:13.

pressure on the government to arrange an national vote.

:55:14.:55:18.

It followed a similar poll by the Kent MP Mark Reckless.

:55:19.:55:22.

Earlier we spoke to the polhtical editor for the size about that

:55:23.:55:24.

ballot. Well, the MP, Mark Reckless decided

:55:25.:55:34.

to hold his own referendum, and the question was do you want to remain

:55:35.:55:38.

part of the European Union or come out?

:55:39.:55:43.

When the results come in `` came in people voted overwhelmingly, almost

:55:44.:55:48.

80% against 20%, to come out of the EU.

:55:49.:55:53.

It was a small sample size, he had 4000 responses out of an eldctorate

:55:54.:55:57.

of 75,000. It is important to note that the only people who wotld

:55:58.:56:00.

respond to a referendum likd this, if you like, are people who are very

:56:01.:56:04.

interested in this issue, bdcause it was hypothetical. They had no say

:56:05.:56:10.

about whether we came out or stayed in. But Mark Reckless said ht was an

:56:11.:56:16.

overwhelming result, and thhs does appear to be the case, Tory

:56:17.:56:21.

backbench MPs like Peter Bone are now holding their own indivhdual

:56:22.:56:26.

referendums in their constituencies. The reason behind this is to try and

:56:27.:56:31.

force David Cameron's and to try and make him bring forward the promised

:56:32.:56:35.

referendum 2017. Peter Bone, let us talk abott this

:56:36.:56:39.

referendum, because my understanding was you were hoping to rele`se the

:56:40.:56:42.

results by now. Why have thdy not come out?

:56:43.:56:46.

One thing on that report, the referendum is a joint referdndum

:56:47.:56:51.

across Kettering, Wellingborough and the Corby constituency. The idea

:56:52.:56:56.

came from a Conservative Parliamentary candidate who was in

:56:57.:57:01.

the film but was not mentioned by the BBC. This was a joint three

:57:02.:57:05.

constituency poll. They are still being delivered, half of thd ballot

:57:06.:57:09.

papers roughly have gone out and I guess we will get the rest out by

:57:10.:57:15.

the end of this month. I thhnk we explained this before, therd is no

:57:16.:57:20.

end date. We will. Counting when people stop sending the ballot

:57:21.:57:23.

papers back to us. When you have got the right result

:57:24.:57:26.

perhaps? If that was the case we would tell

:57:27.:57:31.

you the result now and stop. It is clearly... The point hs we

:57:32.:57:34.

want as many people as posshble to vote. If they do not have a ballot

:57:35.:57:39.

paper they can go to the website and fought by electoral...

:57:40.:57:43.

Are people responding well? We heard Mark Reckless's turnout was not very

:57:44.:57:53.

good. I was surprised by that, in one area

:57:54.:57:58.

where we completed delivery in my constituency had a much higher

:57:59.:58:02.

turnout than that. We will see at the end of the day the turnout and

:58:03.:58:07.

what the vote is. What do you make of this tactic

:58:08.:58:12.

I think we should have a referendum on the European Union. Therd is a

:58:13.:58:16.

national mood to have one although that mood is not as strong `s is

:58:17.:58:20.

often claimed, judging by that result in Kent. Importantly, I think

:58:21.:58:24.

a referendum would land still boil and allow the items that ard not put

:58:25.:58:28.

at the moment, the arguments for staying in, to be put. `` it would

:58:29.:58:34.

lance the boil. Principally the argument for the

:58:35.:58:38.

single economy, and the opinion polls would tilt towards st`ying in

:58:39.:58:42.

and I think people would vote for staying in like they did in 197 .

:58:43.:58:47.

That is my view and the view of quite a lot of people in thd Labour

:58:48.:58:48.

Party. How is this being funded? The

:58:49.:58:53.

posting of envelopes etc. Bob is taking a principle stands as

:58:54.:58:57.

ever, and I would like his Party leader to take on board what he

:58:58.:58:59.

said. Funding of this has been pahd for by

:59:00.:59:05.

some private donations, part of it is being paid for delivery, part of

:59:06.:59:11.

it by private donations. It seems to be back to school in our

:59:12.:59:16.

prodigal roundup of the week. `` political roundup.

:59:17.:59:24.

Education Minister and Norfolk MP Liz truss anions school's m`ths hubs

:59:25.:59:30.

this week. Their main point is about the

:59:31.:59:35.

attitude that everything can do well at maths.

:59:36.:59:37.

criticised in the House for getting criticised in the House for getting

:59:38.:59:39.

his maths wrong over council expenses.

:59:40.:59:43.

Lord Hanningfield brought great shame upon local government and he

:59:44.:59:46.

brought great shame to the House of lords. He should do what he can to

:59:47.:59:53.

repay the money. Northampton MP Michael Ellis needs

:59:54.:59:55.

to go back to school, according to the Speaker.

:59:56.:00:00.

Mr Ellis, calm yourself man Only this morning at each are sahd to me

:00:01.:00:06.

in Speaker's House, how can I tell a little boy in my class to bdhave

:00:07.:00:11.

when parliamentarians do not! Be a good boy!

:00:12.:00:14.

Stewart Jackson gave the Rhhne Minister ten out of ten for his

:00:15.:00:17.

stand. I always knew he had led in his

:00:18.:00:23.

pencil... It is good to see him sharpdning it

:00:24.:00:27.

on the inexorable drive to dver closer union, as personified by his

:00:28.:00:36.

stance on the European Union leader. Praise for the PM's stands, a stance

:00:37.:00:39.

that went down well with thd public for being prime ministerial.

:00:40.:00:44.

I think he made a fool of hhmself and there is nothing heroic about

:00:45.:00:49.

losing by 26 votes to two. H think he has done irreparable dam`ge to

:00:50.:00:52.

the country because he has destroyed relationships in the Europe`n Union

:00:53.:00:57.

and made it harder to get changes. But the public actually likdd his

:00:58.:00:59.

stance. Well, got some headlines, if you are

:01:00.:01:04.

in the headlines, people sed headlines, but they will be

:01:05.:01:08.

consequences for that. People talk about democracy, the

:01:09.:01:12.

leader is democratically eldcted, that is democracy at work, hsn't it?

:01:13.:01:18.

Actually, no, it was a council that decided on the president, and I am

:01:19.:01:24.

impressed the Prime Minister took a principled stance. Others write

:01:25.:01:28.

Labour would have rolled ovdr and accepted what the other European

:01:29.:01:33.

Union leaders wanted. This was the Prime Minister being much more like

:01:34.:01:39.

Margaret Thatcher, rather than Tony Blair. Yearsley had of the largest

:01:40.:01:49.

group, though, isn't he? What I am seeing is the largest head

:01:50.:01:53.

of nations coming together to choose who they want.

:01:54.:02:00.

I think that is the biggest lie out, that would not have bedn the

:02:01.:02:03.

case. We will have to leave it thdre,

:02:04.:02:07.

thank you. As always, you c`n keep in touch through our websitd, we are

:02:08.:02:09.

back at the same time next progress in London was being made

:02:10.:02:14.

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

:02:15.:02:16.

you. What will Thursday's mass

:02:17.:02:20.

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

:02:21.:02:22.

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

:02:23.:02:24.

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

:02:25.:02:46.

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

:02:47.:02:52.

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

:02:53.:02:56.

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

:02:57.:03:00.

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

:03:01.:03:07.

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

:03:08.:03:14.

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

:03:15.:03:18.

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

:03:19.:03:23.

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

:03:24.:03:27.

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

:03:28.:03:32.

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

:03:33.:03:37.

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

:03:38.:03:42.

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

:03:43.:03:47.

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

:03:48.:03:52.

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

:03:53.:03:55.

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

:03:56.:03:58.

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

:03:59.:04:02.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a -

:04:03.:04:05.

every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and

:04:06.:04:12.

local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of

:04:13.:04:16.

London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our

:04:17.:04:21.

democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was

:04:22.:04:27.

hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the

:04:28.:04:32.

question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till

:04:33.:04:35.

2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the

:04:36.:04:40.

public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that

:04:41.:04:47.

one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those

:04:48.:04:51.

strikes that took place in 2010 At that time, the TUC and the Labour

:04:52.:04:54.

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

:04:55.:05:00.

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

:05:01.:05:04.

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

:05:05.:05:11.

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

:05:12.:05:15.

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

:05:16.:05:23.

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

:05:24.:05:27.

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

:05:28.:05:34.

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

:05:35.:05:37.

problem? They do have a problem They have to say always that they

:05:38.:05:40.

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

:05:41.:05:45.

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

:05:46.:05:48.

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

:05:49.:05:57.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one Do

:05:58.:06:02.

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

:06:03.:06:05.

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

:06:06.:06:11.

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse

:06:12.:06:14.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

:06:15.:06:19.

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

:06:20.:06:24.

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

:06:25.:06:29.

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

:06:30.:06:34.

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

:06:35.:06:37.

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

:06:38.:06:41.

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

:06:42.:06:49.

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

:06:50.:07:01.

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

:07:02.:07:05.

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

:07:06.:07:12.

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

:07:13.:07:16.

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

:07:17.:07:19.

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

:07:20.:07:22.

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

:07:23.:07:25.

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

:07:26.:07:28.

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

:07:29.:07:31.

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

:07:32.:07:34.

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

:07:35.:07:53.

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

:07:54.:07:58.

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

:07:59.:08:01.

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

:08:02.:08:07.

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

:08:08.:08:14.

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

:08:15.:08:21.

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

:08:22.:08:23.

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

:08:24.:08:26.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

:08:27.:08:28.

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

:08:29.:08:30.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

:08:31.:08:41.

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

:08:42.:08:47.

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

:08:48.:08:50.

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

:08:51.:08:55.

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

:08:56.:09:00.

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

:09:01.:09:06.

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

:09:07.:09:12.

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

:09:13.:09:17.

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

:09:18.:09:19.

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

:09:20.:09:23.

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

:09:24.:09:28.

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

:09:29.:09:32.

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

:09:33.:09:37.

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

:09:38.:09:40.

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

:09:41.:09:44.

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

:09:45.:09:48.

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

:09:49.:09:53.

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

:09:54.:09:57.

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

:09:58.:10:02.

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:03.:10:12.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The danger to this country is another

:10:13.:10:16.

Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in

:10:17.:10:20.

2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most

:10:21.:10:24.

dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm

:10:25.:10:28.

happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a

:10:29.:10:39.

Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet

:10:40.:10:48.

again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got

:10:49.:10:54.

it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at

:10:55.:11:00.

diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and

:11:01.:11:04.

his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is

:11:05.:11:08.

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

:11:09.:11:12.

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

:11:13.:11:24.

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

:11:25.:11:29.

saw UKIP decline between the 20 4 European elections and the 2005

:11:30.:11:36.

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

:11:37.:11:39.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

:11:40.:11:43.

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

:11:44.:11:48.

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

:11:49.:11:52.

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

:11:53.:11:57.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

:11:58.:12:01.

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

:12:02.:12:11.

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

:12:12.:12:17.

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different

:12:18.:12:22.

supposed to despise. The electricion different reason. It is this

:12:23.:12:26.

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

:12:27.:12:29.

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

:12:30.:12:32.

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

:12:33.:12:36.

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

:12:37.:12:40.

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

:12:41.:12:44.

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

:12:45.:12:48.

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

:12:49.:12:52.

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

:12:53.:12:58.

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

:12:59.:13:03.

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

:13:04.:13:08.

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

:13:09.:13:15.

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

:13:16.:13:19.

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

:13:20.:13:22.

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

:13:23.:13:26.

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

:13:27.:13:31.

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

:13:32.:13:37.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:38.:13:44.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS