01/04/2012 Sunday Politics London


01/04/2012

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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Petrol panic,

:00:46.:00:49.

pastygate, dinners for donors, a week of bad headlines for all David

:00:49.:00:55.

Cameron, so how did Downing Street loses its grip on the news agenda?

:00:55.:00:59.

Joy at Galloway conjured up an astonishing by-election victory in

:00:59.:01:03.

Bradford. -- George Galloway. Has he knocked the stuffing out of

:01:03.:01:08.

Labour? The NHS reforms have made it through Parliament at last, but

:01:08.:01:12.

what will they mean for patience? Andrew Lansley joins us for the

:01:13.:01:16.

Sunday interview. And our panel of the sharpest political journalists,

:01:16.:01:20.

here every week to analyse the week ahead and tweeting non-stop

:01:20.:01:26.

throughout the programme. In London this week, in the first

:01:26.:01:29.

of a series of interviews with the main candidates in the mayoral

:01:29.:01:39.
:01:39.:01:40.

election, we talk to Jenny Jones All that coming out in the next

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hour, but first the news with Maryam Moshiri.

:01:43.:01:47.

Good afternoon. The polls are about to close in Burma's parliamentary

:01:47.:01:53.

by-elections. It is expected that Aung San Suu Kyi will win one of

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the fortified seats being contested. It is the first time her National

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League for Democracy has taken part in elections for more than 20 years.

:02:00.:02:03.

Rachel Harvey has been following the voting from the capital,

:02:03.:02:06.

Rangoon. Voting has been pressed throughout

:02:06.:02:10.

the day. People are apparently keen to take part in elections in which

:02:10.:02:14.

so much could be at stake. A small number of international monitors

:02:14.:02:18.

are on hand, although they have not been here long enough to assess the

:02:18.:02:24.

entire process. Well, there is a system, it looks as if the system

:02:24.:02:29.

is working, and, you know, we hope that lots of people come out to

:02:29.:02:34.

vote and that there is no problems and then it will be a good day.

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opposition party led by Aung San Suu Kyi has already complained of

:02:37.:02:40.

irregularities during the campaign and is now citing some problems

:02:40.:02:44.

during polling. The question is whether the imperfections are an

:02:44.:02:48.

attempt to manipulate the outcome or a reflection of inexperience.

:02:48.:02:53.

Burma has only held two elections in the past quarter of a century.

:02:53.:02:57.

The officials here were showing everybody that those ballot boxes

:02:57.:03:00.

were empty. They actually help them up to make clear to everyone there

:03:00.:03:05.

is nothing inside, it is an open process, then they sealed it up.

:03:05.:03:09.

Then they let the first vote to come in, so so far it looks as if

:03:09.:03:19.
:03:19.:03:22.

Up to 3,000 jobs could be saved at the struggling computer games

:03:22.:03:25.

retailer or Game after a deal to buy half of the stores was reached.

:03:25.:03:29.

It is expected around 300 branches in the UK and Ireland could be

:03:29.:03:34.

saved after a deal with Opcapita. Foreign Secretary William Hague has

:03:34.:03:38.

defended the Government's handling of the petrol crisis. He said it

:03:38.:03:42.

had been caused by the threat of strike action by tanker drivers,

:03:42.:03:47.

not by government ministers urging motorists to top up their time

:03:47.:03:51.

sensed or petrol. It prompted a wave of panic buying at the arms. -

:03:51.:03:58.

- to top up thought -- to top up there tanks or store petrol.

:03:58.:04:01.

think ministers would have been criticised either way, because it a

:04:01.:04:05.

strike took place and they had not alerted people, it would be said

:04:05.:04:10.

that they were complacent and prepare the country. The country is

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any better State Opera Paribas now than it was a week ago. -- is in a

:04:15.:04:19.

better state of preparedness. Air Passenger Duty has been

:04:19.:04:26.

increased by around 8% to �13 for short-haul flights and �92 for

:04:26.:04:30.

longer all journeys. Airlines have criticised it as a tax on tourism,

:04:30.:04:33.

but the government says airlines will benefit from a reduction in

:04:33.:04:38.

corporation tax. More news here on BBC One at 6:30pm. Andrew.

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After what many see as David Cameron's was weak as Prime

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Minister, more details in today's Sunday Times about former

:04:46.:04:50.

Conservative treasurer Peter Cruddas and undisclosed meetings

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between the Prime Minister and a wealthy party backers. We can talk

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to political correspondent Iain Watson. The Tories are behind the

:04:57.:05:01.

curve once again. Last week they said, we will not publish the

:05:01.:05:04.

details of private dinners, but they were forced to do so, but now

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more have come out and they will have to do the same again. I think

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we should be clear, Andrew, that this week's story is not in the

:05:12.:05:15.

same league as last week's. Then the allegation was cash for

:05:15.:05:20.

influence, if you have got a big cheque and you are a Conservative

:05:20.:05:23.

donor, you can have direct influence over policy. Peter

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Cruddas said it was bluster but he resigned. This week the story is

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about transparency and openness. As you were mentioning, in the wake of

:05:32.:05:35.

last week's story, we had a list published of all the dinners which

:05:36.:05:40.

the Prime Minister had hosted with party donors at official residences.

:05:40.:05:44.

Peter Cruddas' name does not appear on those lists, but the Sunday

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Times has released footage of him boasting of being at an event at

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Chequers. What Number Ten are saying is that they only ever

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promised to publish a list of dinners, not a list of events that

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any donor might have attended. What Labour are saying is that it is

:06:01.:06:04.

time the government came clean and gave us a new list of all meetings

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which the Prime Minister has had with donors, what he has promised

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to do so far is the more open in future, to give us more details of

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future meetings that he has with people who are filling Conservative

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Party coffers. Is that the end of the story? Where does it go from

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here? It is not so much just about this story, and I have been saying

:06:24.:06:27.

since the Budget that the government has been plagued by

:06:27.:06:30.

political donations, pasties and petrol. There is a feeling that it

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might be reaching a defining moment for this government. It is possible,

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some Conservatives say, that they will recover, perhaps with a change

:06:39.:06:43.

in backroom personnel, perhaps by improving communications or seeing

:06:43.:06:47.

the petrol prices subside. Just as Tony Blair's government recovered

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from a deficit in the opinion polls in 2000 against weak opposition,

:06:51.:06:56.

this government could do the same. But there are wider fears here that

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we might be approaching a black Wednesday moment. Back then the

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government, for a long time, lost their reputation for economic

:07:04.:07:07.

competence, and there is a fear that everything taken together, the

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Government might be creating the kind of impression of permanent or

:07:12.:07:15.

semi-permanent impression in voters' minds that we are not all

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in this together, that they are out of touch with ordinary people's

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concerns. That would make a political recovery far more

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difficult, and that is what is looking Conservative MPs this

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weekend. We will investigate that Thorpe now. The week started with

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the Tory treasurer caught on camera offering access to the prime

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minister in return for hundreds of thousands of pounds. It ended with

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Labour's crushing defeat in the Bradford by-election at the hands

:07:40.:07:44.

of George Galloway. In between, we have had rows over the Leeds

:07:44.:07:49.

pasties and whether or not to fill up a jerry can with petrol. Here is

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Adam Fleming with a review of the past extraordinary seven days.

:07:54.:07:57.

Thanks to the government, connoisseurs of terrible tabloid

:07:57.:08:05.

word play have had a wonderful week. PM admits hosting donors at flat!

:08:05.:08:09.

That concerned the sting by the Sunday Times which caught the

:08:09.:08:14.

former Tory treasurer offering dinner with the Camerons at Number

:08:14.:08:16.

Ten in return for big donations to the party. With the government

:08:16.:08:20.

published a list of donors who dined in the flat? No way, they

:08:20.:08:26.

said, until they did a few hours later. Petrol, Number Ten fuels

:08:26.:08:31.

panic. This one was the result of some government advice to stock up

:08:31.:08:34.

on petrol just in case tanker drivers go on strike in the next

:08:34.:08:38.

few weeks. At the greater the extent to which people have petrol,

:08:38.:08:44.

fuel in their vehicles, maybe a little bit in the garage as well,

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in a Gerry McCann, the longer we will keep things going. Except that

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last bit is potentially dangerous and possibly illegal, highlighted

:08:52.:08:57.

when a woman suffered burns trying to decant petrol in a kitchen. Out-

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of-touch Tories hire and dry! This was the result of the Chancellor

:09:02.:09:06.

admitting to MPs that he could not remember the last time he had been

:09:06.:09:09.

to an well-known chain of high- street bakers, even though he is

:09:09.:09:13.

slapping VAT on hot Beitbridge to take away, through prime-

:09:13.:09:18.

ministerial attempts to shore up the pass the boat. The last one I

:09:18.:09:23.

bought was from the West Cornwall as the company. I seem to remember

:09:23.:09:28.

I was in Leeds station at the time. Except that shop closed five years

:09:28.:09:34.

ago. For Labour, revenge was a dish best served slightly warmed as they

:09:34.:09:39.

trooped to their local graves. hereby declare that George Galloway

:09:39.:09:44.

is duly elected. All the main parties were blown away by the news

:09:44.:09:47.

from Bradford West in the early hours of Friday morning that George

:09:47.:09:52.

Galloway had done it again, snatched a safe seat from Labour

:09:52.:09:56.

for his respect party. Adam Fleming looking back on a week of

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communication problems, to put it kindly, for the Conservatives and a

:10:00.:10:05.

disastrous by-election result for Labour, to put it bluntly. I joined

:10:05.:10:09.

by George Eustice, former press secretary in opposition, and the

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Labour Shadow Cabinet Office minister Michael Dugher, former

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chief political spokesman for Gordon Brown. George Eustice, the

:10:16.:10:21.

petrol crisis, the UK petrol industry association, with all its

:10:21.:10:25.

authority, described the panic buying as, quote, self-inflicted

:10:25.:10:30.

insanity. That is entirely down to the government, isn't it? Well,

:10:30.:10:34.

hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if you look at a different kind of

:10:34.:10:38.

media context for the type of thing that Francis Maude was saying, you

:10:38.:10:43.

might have got a different response. He would need hindsight to note

:10:43.:10:47.

that you would start a panic if you urged people to fill jerry cans?

:10:47.:10:52.

You would need hindsight to know that? There has been a huge media

:10:52.:10:54.

over-reaction, and it might have been a short bit of government

:10:54.:10:58.

advice that was number five on a news item and it suddenly became a

:10:58.:11:04.

raging row for three days due to the way the media reacted. Petrol

:11:04.:11:08.

stations, the media is not to blame for petrol stations running dry,

:11:08.:11:13.

queues around the block as try to fill up. That his government

:11:13.:11:18.

ministers! What they were trying to do was to make sure that we were

:11:18.:11:22.

prepared for a potential strike, that people had more petrol in the

:11:22.:11:28.

tank than they otherwise would. used Art of Touch You Never Saw

:11:28.:11:32.

that would cause panic? -- are you so out of touch that you never saw

:11:32.:11:36.

that would cause panic? Look, the advice was to maybe fill up if

:11:36.:11:39.

there was going to be a strike, and the reaction has been rather

:11:39.:11:43.

extraordinary. As I said, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and the

:11:43.:11:47.

Government would not have chosen to do that given the way things have

:11:47.:11:51.

turned out. So it is all tickety- boo, no problem with communications

:11:51.:11:56.

in Downing Street whatsoever. they have got to do... Is there a

:11:56.:12:00.

problem? He was a long run-up to the Budget, and the media get bored

:12:00.:12:05.

of the same story day-in, day-out. They got to the problem when they

:12:05.:12:08.

needed a change in the story, the Budget was a moment for that.

:12:08.:12:11.

George Osborne was robbed of all the good announcements because they

:12:11.:12:15.

were leaked, and we have had a remarkable change in sentiment in

:12:15.:12:19.

the media, a very febrile atmosphere at the moment, and it is

:12:19.:12:22.

difficult for the government to get a good hearing. My advice would be

:12:22.:12:26.

to do nothing for the next government, apart from time to get

:12:26.:12:30.

Boris Johnson elected, but then work on a very coherent plan for

:12:30.:12:37.

after made to get back in the saddle. Michael Dugher, why were Ed

:12:37.:12:40.

Balls and Ed Miliband scoffing sausage rolls in Greggs in Redditch

:12:40.:12:44.

when they should have been fighting the Bradford by-election? There are

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a number of lessons we have got to learn from Bradford. I mean, I

:12:50.:12:52.

think we seriously underestimated the George Galloway effect,

:12:52.:12:56.

particularly in the last week of the campaign. Ed Miliband has said

:12:56.:13:00.

we are going to learn those lessons. By-elections sometimes throw up

:13:00.:13:02.

results like this when the mainstream parties get their

:13:02.:13:06.

backside kicked. That is what happened to all the mainstream

:13:06.:13:10.

parties last week. We make no bones about it, it was a Labour seat, we

:13:10.:13:14.

should have held onto that seat. Why were you like a bunch of kids

:13:15.:13:17.

in Redditch having great jokes at the Tories' expense instead of

:13:17.:13:23.

knocking on doors in Bradford? Greggs is a successful, expanding

:13:23.:13:25.

company, and it is no bad thing for political leaders to be buying a

:13:25.:13:30.

sausage roll. There has been a lot of media interest around that this

:13:30.:13:34.

week. We know why they were buying sausage rolls, we are not entirely

:13:34.:13:39.

stupid. Because the Government slapped VAT on sausage rolls and

:13:39.:13:43.

pasties whilst giving millionaire's tax cuts. There is a serious point

:13:43.:13:47.

to this. In Bradford there were some organisational reasons behind

:13:47.:13:50.

the fact that while Labour and the other mainstream parties did so

:13:50.:13:54.

badly, I think it is possibly the first by-election in history that

:13:54.:14:01.

was fought and even won on Social media. You had George Galloway with

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85,000 followers on his Facebook page. Our candidate was knocking on

:14:05.:14:08.

doors the old-fashioned way. George Galloway was able, particularly in

:14:08.:14:11.

the last week, to connect with a whole bunch of people who have not

:14:11.:14:15.

been voting in previous elections. There are big lessons for Labour

:14:15.:14:20.

and all the mainstream parties. have lost Scotland, you have lost

:14:20.:14:23.

Bradford West. If you do not win London, Mr Miliband has a

:14:23.:14:30.

leadership crisis, doesn't he? opinion polls put Ed Miliband and

:14:30.:14:32.

the Labour Party nine points ahead in the national polls. We are

:14:33.:14:37.

working very hard to win back trust in Scotland. If you take elections

:14:37.:14:43.

one year ago, Labour won 850 councillors. We have won every by-

:14:43.:14:46.

election in recent months. Bradford was a setback, but we need to learn

:14:46.:14:51.

lessons about what happened in that particular constituency. Across

:14:51.:14:54.

England and in Wales, in Glasgow and in other parts of the country,

:14:55.:14:58.

we will be taking the argument that this is a government that is out of

:14:58.:15:01.

touch, cutting taxes for millionaires while hitting hard-

:15:01.:15:06.

pressed pensioners and ordinary working families. George Eustice,

:15:06.:15:15.

what is worse for the Government, being seen to? -- to be out of

:15:16.:15:25.
:15:26.:15:26.

Neither a very good, but neither a true. There has been a change in

:15:26.:15:34.

media sentiment. There is a cycle. The goal from sinking the

:15:34.:15:38.

government is good to thinking the Government is very bad. -- they go

:15:38.:15:41.

from thinking. The Government has to focus on getting a clear,

:15:41.:15:48.

coherent plan for after May. If Boris Johnson is elected, the

:15:48.:15:51.

weather will change. The media sentiment will change. The

:15:51.:15:55.

Government will have a chance of getting a fairer hearing. Are you

:15:55.:16:00.

wonder pressure to stop the pasty tax? Absolutely. I will be trying

:16:00.:16:04.

to amend it. Many of the manufacturers are in my

:16:04.:16:10.

constituency. All these cock-ups from Downing Street, the

:16:10.:16:14.

communications disasters, it must remind you of your time in Downing

:16:14.:16:19.

Street with Gordon Brown. Last week, I did wonder, I don't think Downing

:16:19.:16:25.

Street is very good at crisis management and PR. There is an

:16:25.:16:30.

increasing sense, reading reports today about the Government's

:16:30.:16:34.

handling of the fuel dispute, the RADA ports -- there are reports

:16:34.:16:39.

that David Cameron told the cabinet that petrol panic would not be a

:16:39.:16:44.

bad thing. There has been an increasing sense that what Downing

:16:44.:16:48.

Street did was were popping crisis around the dispute, to distract

:16:48.:16:54.

attention from bad headlines about Tory donors. But it backfired

:16:54.:16:58.

spectacularly. The people who paid the price are my constituents and

:16:58.:17:02.

others, stuck unnecessarily in massive queues. I think it was a

:17:02.:17:07.

crisis home-made in Downing Street and whipped up by stupid comments

:17:07.:17:13.

by ministers. Party funding is back in the headlines this morning. Both

:17:13.:17:18.

major parties, all three mainstream parties have problems with funding.

:17:18.:17:26.

Is there anything more that Labour can do to get some resolution?

:17:26.:17:30.

things need to happen. First, we have consistently said we want to

:17:30.:17:34.

get around the table with the other political parties and negotiate are

:17:34.:17:38.

a reform of party funding. We want to take the big money out of

:17:38.:17:44.

politics. We said we are prepared to look at a cap on spending, and a

:17:44.:17:49.

cap of �10,000 on donations to political parties. The political

:17:49.:17:52.

parties need to get around the table, soon. There has to be

:17:52.:17:56.

greater transparency. Last week Ed Miliband published not just his

:17:56.:18:04.

dinners, but all the meetings he has had. With anyone who has given

:18:04.:18:09.

the Labour Party �7,500. David Cameron has refused to match that

:18:09.:18:16.

and will only publish some details. With today's revelations, until

:18:16.:18:19.

David Cameron stops hiding his relationship with donors, the cloud

:18:19.:18:27.

hanging over the Government will not go away. Thank you both. The

:18:28.:18:32.

Government's NHS bill finally became law this week. No mean feat

:18:32.:18:36.

for Andrew Lansbury. -- Andrew Lansley. He has faced opposition

:18:36.:18:39.

from the Lib Dems and calls to drop the Bill from his own side but

:18:39.:18:44.

along the way he has had to agree major changes. At last in a moment

:18:44.:18:54.
:18:54.:18:54.

how at the NHS in England will change. -- I will ask him in a

:18:54.:18:58.

moment how the NHS will change. In his first conference speech as

:18:58.:19:08.
:19:08.:19:12.

leader, David Cameron spelt out his top priority. In three letters, NHS.

:19:12.:19:18.

Let us make this commitment, no more pointless reorganisations of

:19:18.:19:25.

our National Health Service. That personal view was turned into an

:19:25.:19:31.

election poster but they did not win the election. The sun is

:19:31.:19:37.

shining. Two parties now had a say on health. The coalition agreement

:19:37.:19:40.

laid out common ground but two months later, it was clear that

:19:40.:19:45.

wholesale reform was on the cards. When the Health and Social Care

:19:45.:19:51.

Bill was presented in January last year, it said patients first. PCTs

:19:51.:19:57.

out and GPs in. And all this as the NHS had to make huge savings.

:19:57.:20:02.

Health unions said that it was disrupting privatisation. The

:20:02.:20:07.

concerns of health professionals could not be ignored. Then Lib Dem

:20:07.:20:13.

party members voted at their conference against the bill. The

:20:13.:20:16.

former health spokesman threaten to resign if changes were not made.

:20:16.:20:20.

have said that if it is impossible for me to carry on, I will step

:20:20.:20:24.

down. We propose to take the opportunity of a natural break in

:20:25.:20:31.

the passage of the bill two Pauls, listen and engage with those who

:20:31.:20:37.

want the NHS to succeed. -- two balls. There was an eight week

:20:37.:20:43.

listening exercise. Cameron, Clegg and Lansley toured hospitals and

:20:43.:20:49.

the bill re-emerged in June with amendments. Growing hostility from

:20:49.:20:52.

professional bodies threatens to put the bill on wide support and by

:20:52.:20:55.

January, the Royal College of midwives and other unions were

:20:55.:21:01.

openly opposed. Others were allowed to engage with government but had

:21:01.:21:07.

objections. Concerns were echoed in the Lords, where over 1000

:21:07.:21:12.

amendments were suggested. It began to seem that the survival of the

:21:12.:21:17.

built lay in the hands of a veteran peer, not the Health Secretary,

:21:17.:21:22.

whose fate seemed to be in hand of a veteran at union rep, and a

:21:22.:21:25.

conservative bloc which suggested that Cabinet ministers and Tories

:21:25.:21:29.

wanted the bill dropped. But the bill stayed and last week it became

:21:29.:21:34.

law. Andrew Lansley joins me for the

:21:35.:21:44.
:21:45.:21:45.

Sunday interview. The health reforms are now law and

:21:45.:21:49.

they have to be implemented. Rather than go over the old ground, let us

:21:49.:21:52.

look at what they will mean for patients in England watching this

:21:52.:21:58.

programme. Simply and concisely, explain what they will mean for NHS

:21:58.:22:03.

patients. It means that patients will get more information and more

:22:03.:22:07.

choice. An opportunity to choose their GP practice, to choose who

:22:08.:22:12.

looks after them, often when they are being referred for treatment,

:22:12.:22:15.

to have greater choice about services. Not only which hospital

:22:15.:22:21.

they go to, but who is providing the services in the community.

:22:21.:22:25.

Secondly, the bill is clear that these services have to be more

:22:25.:22:29.

joined-up. We're going to see more integrated services, including

:22:29.:22:34.

social care. Imagine you are someone with a long-term condition

:22:34.:22:38.

like diabetes. You're more likely to be able to say that if you have

:22:38.:22:43.

severe diabetes, not only do I know who Meyer -- who is responsible for

:22:43.:22:48.

my care in the community, but also if I need support from the local

:22:48.:22:55.

authority, that social care, too. Secondly... Thirdly. OK, thirdly.

:22:55.:23:02.

The GP with whom your registered, they have an ability to see the

:23:02.:23:06.

needs that you have. Instead of unaccountable bureaucracy, we will

:23:06.:23:11.

save money by cutting out two tears of bureaucracy. The GPS,

:23:11.:23:15.

collectively, will be able to design the services that you need

:23:15.:23:20.

locally. There will be somebody who knows your services. Additionally,

:23:20.:23:26.

there will be a stronger voice for patients. HealthWatch, in every

:23:26.:23:30.

area, will be able to speak up for patients. And the local authority

:23:30.:23:37.

is a central part of this. If -- they will be at the heart of trying

:23:37.:23:42.

to improve health for the future. Local campaigns to improve teenage

:23:42.:23:48.

pregnancy, to reduce obesity and improve sexual health, those things

:23:48.:23:54.

will be able to impact across a whole community. I'm not sure our

:23:54.:23:56.

viewers will find that simple or concise. I think it is pretty

:23:56.:24:03.

simple. I'm still not sure, and it took five points. It is a big bill.

:24:03.:24:07.

Will we see improvements as a result of these reforms in time for

:24:08.:24:13.

the next election? Yes. We are looking to achieve not only that

:24:13.:24:17.

the services continue to improve, so the number of people waiting

:24:17.:24:21.

more than 18 weeks for operations have gone down since the election.

:24:21.:24:25.

We have seen hospital infections at the lowest levels at but we want to

:24:25.:24:29.

go beyond that. We want to measure the things which are the principal

:24:29.:24:34.

results for patients, and see them improve, things like measuring

:24:34.:24:41.

survival after diagnosis. Let us go on to details. First of all, the

:24:41.:24:47.

British attitude survey. This shows satisfaction with the NHS. It has

:24:47.:24:53.

gone from 34% satisfaction in 1997 to 70% in 2010. Quite an

:24:53.:24:57.

achievement for the last government. Well you're reforms take

:24:57.:25:03.

satisfaction rates higher by 2015? A one of the things I was going to

:25:03.:25:07.

say, when you look at the results, part of it is measuring patients

:25:07.:25:14.

experience. Well that go up? -- will that go up? That does not

:25:14.:25:17.

measure that. It measures satisfaction. Well satisfaction

:25:17.:25:26.

rise? We are measuring patients' experience. But it has not covered

:25:26.:25:30.

all the things that need to be covered. If you were a young person

:25:30.:25:33.

under the age of 16, your experience of the NHS was never

:25:34.:25:43.
:25:44.:25:44.

measured. Let us stick... The short answer. This is a simple thing. The

:25:44.:25:49.

British Social attitudes Survey is well respected. I know you are not

:25:49.:25:53.

going to fund it any more, but The King's Fund will fund it. Will that

:25:53.:25:57.

rise as a result of these reforms? Our objective is to improve the

:25:57.:26:01.

results. What matters to patients is their experience, so we are

:26:01.:26:07.

looking to improve the reports from patients of the quality of care

:26:07.:26:10.

they experience. That is what matters. Likewise, we are looking

:26:10.:26:15.

to people with long-term conditions, never measured in the past. For the

:26:15.:26:19.

first time, we will measure the experience of quality of life for

:26:19.:26:23.

people living at home with long- term conditions. There are 17

:26:23.:26:27.

million such people, with diabetes, asthma, respiratory diseases. They

:26:27.:26:32.

need to know that we are measuring how we improve the quality of their

:26:33.:26:37.

care. You are not answering that. More specifically, cancer survival

:26:37.:26:46.

rates. Let us look up breast cancer as an example. This shows, in a

:26:46.:26:50.

as an example. This shows, in a study by the Lancet, that England

:26:50.:26:56.

lags behind Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Australia and Canada. Specifically,

:26:56.:27:01.

will your reforms improve breast cancer survival rates?

:27:01.:27:06.

intention is to ensure improvement intention is to ensure improvement

:27:06.:27:09.

in one year and five year cancer survival rates. Nor will the

:27:09.:27:14.

international average, but exceeding it. -- 0 below. We want

:27:14.:27:18.

to have succeeded the international averages by 2015, and aim for the

:27:18.:27:24.

best. If we were to achieve, across the main cancers, survival after

:27:24.:27:29.

diagnosis that was amongst the best in the world, we could save up to

:27:29.:27:33.

10,000 lives a year. If we do not move up the ladder, these reforms

:27:34.:27:39.

will not have succeeded? That's right. The reforms are about

:27:39.:27:45.

improving cancer survival. That is a specific way to judge it. Coming

:27:45.:27:49.

on to the right of patients to be treated within 18 weeks, which is

:27:49.:27:54.

enshrined in the NHS constitution. When you came to power there were

:27:54.:27:59.

over 20,000 NHS patients, waiting more than 18 weeks. Will these

:27:59.:28:04.

reforms result in fewer patients having to wait 18 weeks? Yes. The

:28:04.:28:09.

objective is to meet the NHS constitution and improve it. You

:28:09.:28:14.

have not mention the current figure, which is below 9000. We have more

:28:14.:28:17.

than halved the number of patients waiting more than a year for

:28:17.:28:26.

treatment. Again, if you do not see eight clear improvement on the 18

:28:26.:28:30.

weak figure and the number of patients waiting more, we can judge

:28:30.:28:36.

that the reforms do not work? It is a constitutional right. We

:28:36.:28:41.

are looking to improve the quality of the NHS. We can also demonstrate

:28:41.:28:46.

how it will happen because in the document published this week on

:28:46.:28:49.

improving public services more openly, were part of it is

:28:50.:28:55.

precisely about giving patients more information so that when they

:28:55.:28:59.

book operations they can see if the hospital that they are booking with

:28:59.:29:03.

his meeting its obligation to treat patients with an 18 weeks. You're

:29:03.:29:12.

kidding us some yardsticks. -- you are giving us. Critics have charged

:29:12.:29:15.

that what you're doing amounts to the privatisation of the health

:29:15.:29:20.

the privatisation of the health the privatisation of the health

:29:20.:29:22.

service. The Act allows NHS service. The Act allows NHS

:29:22.:29:27.

hospitals to use half of their best for private patients. -- half of

:29:27.:29:31.

their beds. Is it any wonder that people suggest you are privatising

:29:31.:29:36.

the health service? It allows the hospital foundation trusts to

:29:36.:29:41.

secure private income. If Moorfields Hospital sets up a

:29:41.:29:44.

clinic in Dubai, which they have done, they may secure private

:29:44.:29:50.

income. It has not affected the availability of beds. You pick a

:29:50.:29:54.

specific hospital, but in general foundations will be allowed to take

:29:54.:30:01.

up to 49% of private patients. only if the effect of that, of

:30:01.:30:05.

whatever they do in terms of private income, is to benefit NHS

:30:05.:30:10.

patients. They have to demonstrate how it will benefit NHS patients.

:30:10.:30:14.

The largest proportion of private income of any hospital in the

:30:14.:30:18.

country is the Royal Marsden, who have about 27%. Again, you pick a

:30:18.:30:24.

specialist London hospital. They have 26% private income and they

:30:24.:30:27.

have consistently excellent performance in terms of their

:30:27.:30:32.

services to NHS patients. The two things are not contradictory.

:30:32.:30:37.

people watching this and experts in terms of the health service, they

:30:37.:30:42.

simply say, look, if you increase the number of private health beds,

:30:42.:30:46.

surely it follows that there will be fewer for NHS patients. That

:30:46.:30:52.

does not fall tall. Why not? If the NHS were to put alongside its

:30:52.:30:57.

existing facilities a joint venture with an international hospital

:30:57.:31:00.

group to provide services to patients from overseas, and there

:31:00.:31:03.

are hospitals to have done that and we'll do it in the future, does

:31:03.:31:07.

that reduce the services for NHS patients? I think we have to be

:31:07.:31:11.

clear, under legislation set this out, that they cannot cross

:31:11.:31:16.

subsidise any private activity. Private activity, which may be for

:31:16.:31:25.

international patients, has to You want doctors to be able to

:31:25.:31:31.

refer patients to private providers. It they are qualified to provide to

:31:31.:31:36.

NHS patients. You get the private sector provides more services and

:31:36.:31:41.

the NHS less and less? We have set up a level playing field. It is not

:31:41.:31:45.

a matter of not caring. I want to get the best services for patients,

:31:45.:31:49.

and from my point of view, what I also care about is not

:31:49.:31:54.

discriminating against the NHS. Under Labour, they introduced

:31:54.:31:59.

contracts for private sector to do NHS operations, they pay them more

:31:59.:32:03.

than the NHS, they told NHS hospitals that they could not

:32:03.:32:08.

compete for those contracts, and they ended up paying �250 million

:32:08.:32:12.

to private hospitals for operations that never took place. The

:32:12.:32:17.

legislation, for the first time, prevents any government

:32:17.:32:21.

discriminating in favour of private providers. If more procedures are

:32:21.:32:25.

done by private providers, within the NHS... Widely assumed that

:32:25.:32:31.

would be the case? I said Ife. Let's not assume that. Does it

:32:31.:32:37.

matter to you that the NHS will end up with fewer clinical facilities?

:32:37.:32:42.

I do not think it will. It did, would it matter? The legislation is

:32:42.:32:48.

clear. If there were any services that the NHS required in an area,

:32:48.:32:51.

NHS phone services, not just private ones, that when necessary

:32:51.:32:56.

in order to maintain services, the regulator would step in to ensure

:32:56.:33:00.

they were maintained. I think what worries people, political donations

:33:00.:33:06.

of very big in the news, as you well know right now. Your party has

:33:06.:33:10.

had 300 donations from private healthcare companies, totalling

:33:10.:33:15.

over �8 million in 11 years, over 100 Tory peers and MPs have

:33:16.:33:18.

connections to private healthcare. No wonder people are worried about

:33:18.:33:23.

privatising it. There is nothing in the legislation which permits

:33:23.:33:26.

privatisation of NHS services. took 8 million from healthcare

:33:26.:33:31.

providers. I have never looked at it. You should. He fact of the

:33:31.:33:35.

matter is that I have been the party's spokesman on health for 8

:33:35.:33:42.

1/2 years. At no stage, in no way, has anybody secured any influence

:33:42.:33:46.

over our policy by giving donations. They just give it out of the

:33:46.:33:50.

kindness of their hearts! Presumably because they supported

:33:50.:33:54.

the Conservative Party. Because you are expanding their business.

:33:54.:33:58.

is nothing in the legislation, as you yourself have said, you'll

:33:58.:34:01.

postulating a hypothesis about the private sector doing better than

:34:01.:34:06.

the NHS. It is perfectly possible that NHS hospitals, not

:34:06.:34:09.

discriminated against in the way that Labour did, can deliver better

:34:09.:34:13.

and more efficient services, and they are doing that at the moment.

:34:13.:34:16.

We are seeing productivity increases that we did not see under

:34:16.:34:20.

Labour, and that means NHS hospitals will be in a stronger

:34:20.:34:23.

place to provide services that patients need. Jo questions about

:34:23.:34:28.

where we go from here. If you are re-elected in 2015, can you give a

:34:28.:34:33.

pledge that there will be no more major reorganisation of the NHS?

:34:33.:34:38.

The manifesto for 2015 was at that out. The legislation is very clear.

:34:38.:34:42.

I'm not asking for that, you gave a pledge, and I do not think you can

:34:42.:34:47.

or want to, that there will be no more major reorganisation. From my

:34:47.:34:51.

point of view, and I'm sure the same will be true for David, the

:34:51.:34:55.

point of this legislation was to deal with all of the issues that

:34:55.:34:58.

are required, to deal with all the reforms that are required in order

:34:58.:35:03.

to sustain the NHS in the 21st century. To that extent, it should

:35:03.:35:07.

give stability for a long period of time. You will not try to reverse

:35:07.:35:12.

the changes that were forced on you by the Lib Dems in the Lords.

:35:12.:35:16.

no. You can see in the Lords, it was a positive and constructive

:35:16.:35:21.

process. He talked about lots of amendments, but we made amendments

:35:21.:35:27.

through a process of constructive debate and agreement. There were 32

:35:27.:35:31.

votes in the Lords. We actually only last two, one of which we

:35:31.:35:35.

accepted, and another where Lord Patel of Bradford put forward an

:35:35.:35:39.

alternative which we were happy with. To that extent, we have

:35:39.:35:44.

agreed that the legislation, by its nature, has a degree of additional

:35:44.:35:48.

reassurance and compromise. This has been an unpleasant road for you.

:35:48.:35:53.

Do you have regrets? My regret is that, if you recall, you show it on

:35:53.:35:57.

your package, one year ago we had to pause the legislation in order

:35:57.:36:01.

to have more engagement with staff. It is perfectly clear that although

:36:01.:36:06.

we consulted on the white paper more than 18 months ago, actually

:36:06.:36:08.

many of the organisations that responded did not get to grips with

:36:09.:36:13.

what was in the legislation. So too have had that kind of engagement

:36:13.:36:17.

with the NHS Future Forum would have been better earlier. Given

:36:17.:36:21.

your unpopularity with huge swathes of health professionals, would it

:36:22.:36:25.

not be better to let someone else come in and implement these reforms

:36:25.:36:29.

now? You are damaged goods in the eyes of the health industry.

:36:29.:36:35.

They're a kind of you to say so! It is what some trade unions say. --

:36:35.:36:40.

and very kind of you. Others say different things. They all know

:36:40.:36:44.

that for eight and a half years, as party spokesman, I have been at

:36:44.:36:48.

advocate and a supporter of the NHS. They know that under this coalition

:36:48.:36:52.

government, we have increased resources for the NHS in real terms

:36:52.:36:57.

each year. Has it destroyed your political career? It has not.

:36:57.:37:01.

still have one? My career has a purpose from my point of view, and

:37:01.:37:05.

it is not personal. It is a passion for insuring the NHS is in a

:37:05.:37:10.

stronger place in the future, to give greater service and benefits

:37:10.:37:15.

to patients. As he demonstrated, the quality we deliver to patients

:37:15.:37:19.

in the future will be my intention. You have given us some yardsticks,

:37:19.:37:22.

I hope you will come back to speak to us if you're still Secretary of

:37:22.:37:26.

State for Health. Thank you for joining us. You are watching Sunday

:37:26.:37:31.

politics. Coming up in 20 minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead

:37:31.:37:35.

with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across

:37:35.:37:45.
:37:45.:37:48.

Hello, welcome to the London part of the Sunday Politics, where we

:37:48.:37:51.

have had a moment the first of our interviews with the main candidates

:37:51.:37:56.

who would be mayor. A little later, after winning a seat in the London

:37:56.:38:00.

Assembly four years ago, the BNP faces the electorate in London

:38:00.:38:04.

again. What future for them at the party infighting and defeat at the

:38:04.:38:09.

polls? But first, with me today is the greens mayoral candidate, Jenny

:38:09.:38:15.

Jones, one of two Green members of the London Assembly. She was also a

:38:15.:38:18.

long-standing member of the former Metropolitan Police Authority which

:38:18.:38:26.

was recently abolished. First off, why could you do this job? Well, I

:38:26.:38:30.

was at City Hall and have been there for 12 years. I have kept the

:38:30.:38:35.

two mayors to account. I feel like I know how it runs. Plus the Green

:38:35.:38:39.

Party has the best ideas, radical, fresh ideas, and I think we could

:38:39.:38:43.

create a London that would be more equal, fair and healthier for

:38:43.:38:48.

everybody. That his opposition. What is the proof of competence of

:38:48.:38:52.

running an organisation that controls a budget of �15 billion?

:38:52.:38:56.

It is going to be a big job, and that is why they are so few people

:38:56.:39:01.

have wanted these days. But I have watched the budget go through, I

:39:01.:39:04.

paid a key role in some budget discussions, and I think I know

:39:04.:39:08.

enough about how the system works to actually do an extremely good

:39:08.:39:12.

job. You also depend a lot on your advisers, that is a crucial

:39:12.:39:18.

component. Something that is very topical, the current threat of

:39:19.:39:23.

tanker drivers to strike. Is that something that you could see as an

:39:23.:39:27.

opportunity to say to people, you don't need to be so dependent on

:39:27.:39:32.

cars? That is absolutely right, and it is a shocking example of how

:39:32.:39:35.

this government has failed to understand the needs and pressures

:39:35.:39:38.

of climate change. If they had been moving us towards a less oil

:39:38.:39:42.

dependent economy, they could have been doing that for two years, we

:39:42.:39:47.

would not be in the same position. It is a shocking indictment of

:39:47.:39:50.

their lack of understanding. Do you welcome the strike in that respect?

:39:50.:39:54.

It might change behaviour. I do not welcome the strike, it puts

:39:54.:39:59.

pressure on people, and I do not support that, but the Greens think

:39:59.:40:01.

that transport, public transport should be cheaper than driving.

:40:01.:40:05.

That is something we would aim to bring in in London. When you see

:40:05.:40:11.

people queuing, panicked, to fill their cars with petrol, deer have

:40:11.:40:16.

sympathy for that? Or to find it amusing? I have huge sympathy, it

:40:16.:40:19.

is an impossible situation to be put in. Many people leave their

:40:19.:40:23.

cars, I accept that, but the government could have avoided this.

:40:23.:40:28.

In some ways, it is an example, I think, of their immaturity as a

:40:28.:40:31.

government, because to create the panic they were trying to avoid is

:40:32.:40:36.

very incompetent. You say that people need their cars, how much?

:40:36.:40:40.

How much more difficult or costly would you make it for them to use

:40:40.:40:46.

cars? Well, we have a scheme that we would research, and we would

:40:46.:40:49.

probably wait three years, and during those three years we would

:40:49.:40:53.

engage with people in London, the business community, the elderly,

:40:53.:40:58.

the disabled, people who feel they need their cars, and then we would

:40:58.:41:00.

introduce a pay-as-you-drive pricing system for the roads.

:41:00.:41:03.

Successive governments have promised this in opposition. When

:41:04.:41:06.

they get into government, they fail because it is a frightening

:41:06.:41:12.

prospect. How much would it cost per mile? We did some research last

:41:12.:41:15.

year, and the price that was sort of worked out, and we have not

:41:15.:41:19.

decided it yet because we need to consult, what about 32p per mile,

:41:20.:41:23.

and that would bring in approximately �1.2 billion that we

:41:24.:41:27.

could pay for the scheme and also reinvest in public transport.

:41:27.:41:31.

Different rates at different times? This is all up for discussion, but

:41:32.:41:35.

I would hope so. I hope that residential roads would cost more

:41:35.:41:40.

to drive on then Maine Road. We want to keep traffic on main roads

:41:40.:41:43.

and allow people who live in pleasant areas did hit those areas

:41:43.:41:47.

pleasant. What is the effect of VAT on business? That is exactly why we

:41:47.:41:54.

need to consult. If businesses say no, it will clobber us, we are

:41:54.:41:57.

dependent... We look for ways to help them. A ways to drop the

:41:58.:42:02.

policy? I don't think so, it has to happen. It has to happen somewhere

:42:02.:42:06.

in Britain, and London is the perfect place to start. For

:42:06.:42:10.

businesses, I chaired something called London Food, and we

:42:10.:42:13.

discussed how to make it easier for small businesses to get food

:42:13.:42:18.

supplies of all sorts by creating hubs around the outside of London.

:42:18.:42:24.

It would mean fewer lorry journeys and more access to small businesses.

:42:24.:42:27.

Would road-pricing replace congestion charging? Absolutely.

:42:27.:42:32.

You want to see that go up, don't you? We want to see it raised to

:42:32.:42:37.

�15 for an ordinary car but �40 for a gas guzzler. How many were that

:42:37.:42:41.

affect? Hopefully, very few, because we want to deter them. We

:42:41.:42:47.

do not want them on our roads. Penalising families? Not all

:42:47.:42:51.

families have gas-guzzlers. I think gas-guzzlers are a lifestyle choice.

:42:52.:42:55.

We have a real problem with air pollution in London at the moment.

:42:55.:43:01.

It is causing 4,300 premature deaths, at least, every year, plus

:43:01.:43:05.

it gives children asthma, problems for people with lung problems or

:43:05.:43:09.

heart problems. We have to clean up our air, and we have to do it by

:43:09.:43:13.

any means possible. If you had that money, what would it enable you to

:43:13.:43:18.

do one terms of public transport fares? We would keep them below

:43:18.:43:21.

inflation for the whole four year term. If he did not implement that

:43:21.:43:24.

policy, what would you do if you inherited the Budget now about

:43:24.:43:29.

fares? If we put up the congestion charge, we would still have the

:43:29.:43:34.

money to reduce fares. It can be done. If you inherited Boris

:43:34.:43:39.

Johnson's budget, or Ken Livingstone, what would you do?

:43:39.:43:41.

would not be coming in with the same position. We have a different

:43:41.:43:47.

policy and we would reduce theirs. When? We would reduce... We would

:43:47.:43:50.

reduce fares immediately. We will put up the congestion charge as

:43:50.:43:54.

soon as humanly possible, which would generate the funds to bring

:43:54.:43:59.

fares down. I thought the pledge was to freeze fares for the first

:43:59.:44:04.

few years. I think that might be a different party. By as much as Ken

:44:04.:44:08.

Livingstone, 7%? Probably not, it depends how much we raise from the

:44:08.:44:13.

congestion charge. So a direct hypothecation? The congestion

:44:13.:44:16.

charge would go into the affairs? And other parts of the public

:44:16.:44:20.

transport network. Would you be prepared to see a delay in

:44:20.:44:23.

investment in infrastructure? Absolutely not! This is something

:44:23.:44:27.

the other political parties talk about as if lowering fares and not

:44:27.:44:30.

investing in transport, you know, that you cannot do both. In fact

:44:30.:44:35.

you can do both, lower fares and invest in infrastructure, which is

:44:35.:44:40.

crucial, and we can do it with the Budget we have got at the moment.

:44:40.:44:43.

Policing, do you think the Metropolitan Police is spending too

:44:43.:44:46.

much on phone-hacking inquiry? think probably they are spending

:44:46.:44:50.

too much, but there is huge public pressure on them to carry on. The

:44:50.:44:55.

fact is that they have had some very savage cuts this year. I have

:44:55.:44:59.

called for a moratorium on cuts to the policing budget. We were told

:44:59.:45:04.

this week it could end up costing �40 million. What you do? If they

:45:04.:45:13.

are spending too much, is there It is a case of getting the

:45:13.:45:16.

Commissioner to rebalance his priorities. I think we can

:45:16.:45:21.

investigated but at a slower pace. I want to make sure the child

:45:21.:45:24.

protection is properly funded. about the victims of phone hacking

:45:24.:45:31.

that want closure on this? course, of course. There are crimes

:45:31.:45:35.

against persons that I think at this stage ought to take priority.

:45:35.:45:42.

For example, we do not investigate enough in -- put enough into rape

:45:42.:45:45.

investigation and child protection services, and Paul Heaton --

:45:45.:45:48.

policing our roads. What about cutting the number of police

:45:48.:45:55.

officers? This obsession is mad. Why not cut them? I would certainly

:45:56.:45:59.

make sure that we have enough backroom staff to make sure the

:45:59.:46:02.

police officers we have are out there on the streets doing the jobs

:46:02.:46:06.

that people want them to do. At the moment we have a shelf. We do not

:46:07.:46:11.

have enough staff. Cup the backroom staff, that is what the current

:46:11.:46:17.

administration has been doing. is what they have been doing. I am

:46:17.:46:21.

saying I would not do that. The previous administration... If you

:46:21.:46:26.

can't backroom staff, the police officers will need to do those jobs.

:46:26.:46:31.

That is the case. The current administration cut backroom staff

:46:31.:46:37.

and so the police officers are actually not out doing what they

:46:37.:46:43.

should be doing, they are actually in call centres, doing desk work.

:46:43.:46:48.

That is ludicrous. So the case is to reinstate those backroom staff,

:46:48.:46:52.

but obviously that costs. You will then cut the number of police

:46:52.:46:57.

officers to make that happen. would get rid of them through

:46:57.:47:02.

natural wastage. Last year, the current administration spent �6

:47:02.:47:09.

million getting rid of 900 staff. That means there are now 1500 less

:47:09.:47:13.

staff. Police staff cost less than police officers so there has been a

:47:13.:47:17.

reorganisation of the budget to keep expensive police officers at

:47:17.:47:22.

the cost of backroom staff. What is a fair level, what is a functional

:47:22.:47:26.

level of policing? That is very difficult to say without having all

:47:26.:47:34.

the figures in front of. But I would say that 28,000 seemed an

:47:34.:47:37.

appropriate level when we reach that level under Ken Livingstone. I

:47:37.:47:47.
:47:47.:47:48.

would investigate whether that is appropriate. Briefly, when a recent

:47:48.:47:53.

poll looked at what Londoners believed across the parties, who

:47:53.:47:58.

had the best policies on issues like the environment, six or 7%

:47:58.:48:02.

said you. I think that is pretty good. I think most people don't

:48:02.:48:09.

know what our policies are. It is difficult for us to get our

:48:09.:48:12.

policies out. People do not know that we have social policies. That

:48:12.:48:17.

is quite heartening. In the same elections four years ago, the BNP

:48:17.:48:24.

won a seat on the London Assembly for the first time. His can -- the

:48:24.:48:28.

candidate later fell out with the party leadership and is now an

:48:28.:48:33.

independent. It is one and a series of disastrous election results.

:48:33.:48:38.

Four years ago, the BNP won their first seat on the London Assembly.

:48:38.:48:42.

Some of the candidates were so appalled they refuse to share a

:48:42.:48:52.
:48:52.:48:52.

platform with a member. Like rats leaving a sinking ship. Richard Tom

:48:52.:48:57.

Brook at the right to question the mayor and build a profile.

:48:57.:49:01.

rapid replacement of the white British population. For life was

:49:01.:49:06.

not made easy for him. Boris Johnson refused to make eye contact

:49:06.:49:12.

or address him directly. Do you know, I do not think I can think of

:49:12.:49:17.

an answer for that question. you do not have to. Away from city

:49:17.:49:22.

hall, the party has been beset by problems. In 2010, Nick Griffin

:49:22.:49:30.

fails to win a parliamentary seat. The message from Barking to the BNP

:49:30.:49:37.

is clear. Get out and stay out. the same night, they lost all 12

:49:37.:49:43.

seats on the council of Barking and Dagenham. The party lost money and

:49:43.:49:49.

members. Eddie Butler was one of them. Formerly a senior figure, he

:49:49.:49:52.

challenged Nick Griffin for the leadership but was then expelled

:49:52.:49:57.

from the BNP. He went on to join the English Democrats and blames

:49:57.:50:03.

Britain for many of his old party's problems. -- Nick Griffin. In the

:50:03.:50:06.

run-up to the election, Nick Griffin publicly accused his public

:50:06.:50:12.

-- publicity director of trying to kill him. It was not exactly... The

:50:12.:50:15.

charges were dropped because it was a ridiculous allegation. That is

:50:15.:50:24.

not good publicity. It has imploded. The financial and political

:50:24.:50:31.

allegations, the membership has declined by probably three-quarters.

:50:31.:50:35.

Richard Barnbrook also left the party but stayed on at the Assembly

:50:35.:50:39.

as an independent. That has left the BNP without a single elected

:50:39.:50:43.

representative in London. Even in areas like Barking and Dagenham

:50:43.:50:46.

where they once hoped to return a member to Parliament and even

:50:46.:50:51.

control the council. The election to the London Assembly is very

:50:51.:50:55.

different. You need a concentrated support in one particular place and

:50:55.:50:59.

you need to be popular. To get on the London Assembly, you only need

:50:59.:51:05.

about 5% of the vote spread across the entire city. Not beyond the

:51:05.:51:09.

reach of the BNP according to a group which campaigns against their

:51:09.:51:14.

party. The BNP have a brand name, still. Whatever is going on

:51:14.:51:19.

internally, the voters are not going to know about that. They know

:51:19.:51:23.

what the BNP stands for, and there is obviously a group of voters who

:51:23.:51:28.

find that quite appealing. In this election, the BNP might have a

:51:28.:51:32.

different appeal. The party, famous for their anti-immigrant stance, or

:51:32.:51:36.

trying something new. Their candidate is an immigrant from

:51:36.:51:42.

Uruguay. Campaigning with little money, much of his focus has been

:51:42.:51:48.

online. We found that he has started up logs hosted by the Daily

:51:48.:51:58.
:51:58.:52:02.

Telegraph and Jewish Chronicle. The The Jewish Chronicle said they

:52:02.:52:06.

stopped imposing when they found out he was a BNP candidate but has

:52:06.:52:12.

not removed what was already up on the internet. It is issues like

:52:12.:52:17.

transport which will dominate the mayoral race. What is the BNP

:52:17.:52:21.

candidate's message on public transport? I directly oppose the

:52:21.:52:28.

initiative of Boris Johnson for giving us an automatic underground

:52:28.:52:33.

service. I think it is a scandal and with the rise in unemployment,

:52:33.:52:38.

they're talking about using robots instead of people. And on the

:52:38.:52:42.

signature issue, immigration, he strikes a less radical line than

:52:42.:52:48.

some might expect. We only oppose those who were not legally here.

:52:48.:52:58.
:52:58.:53:01.

Anybody who is legally here, we This is Steve Squire, BNP candidate

:53:01.:53:05.

for the London Assembly. Using more traditional language, or of a one-

:53:05.:53:15.
:53:15.:53:19.

Do you agree with the statement that all businesses that -- all

:53:19.:53:23.

businesses in London seemed to be owned by newcomers and immigrants?

:53:23.:53:28.

If they are legally entitled, even if they are immigrants, I have no

:53:28.:53:34.

issue with them. Because that is something that Steve said ornate

:53:34.:53:39.

p&p video on your website as part of your London campaign. -- all on

:53:39.:53:43.

a BNP video. Maybe you're giving one message to the internet and

:53:43.:53:48.

another message to the BBC. Come and ask me tomorrow and I'll give

:53:48.:53:51.

you the same answer. You are not interviewing anybody else, you are

:53:51.:53:56.

talking to me. If you want to know what I think, asked me. Voters will

:53:56.:53:59.

have five weeks to decide what they think of the BNP and their

:53:59.:54:04.

candidates. If these scenes are not repeated, it will be seen by many

:54:04.:54:13.

as a sign of a party in decline. Jenny Jones, the BNP are in trouble.

:54:13.:54:18.

The Greens had 10 councillors in London in 2010 and now only had two.

:54:18.:54:22.

Is this the end of small parties two at the last election, Labour

:54:22.:54:29.

stepped up its game. I do not see that happening again any time soon.

:54:29.:54:33.

You are telling supporters to vote for Ken Livingstone as a second

:54:33.:54:36.

preference. I am suggesting that they could and that would be

:54:36.:54:42.

appropriate. Is it appropriate or is it electoral suicide? Are you

:54:42.:54:45.

saying you do not want existing Liberal Democrat supporters to vote

:54:45.:54:49.

for you. I'm saying I would like everyone to vote Green because I

:54:49.:54:54.

think a green Mayer would make a huge difference. But if you cannot

:54:54.:54:59.

have a green Mayer, and it is likely that the two final

:54:59.:55:04.

contenders will be Boris and Ken, we are saying that we can work with

:55:04.:55:08.

Ken because we have worked with him before. Are you saying that

:55:08.:55:13.

Conservative voters or Lib Dem voters should not vote for you,

:55:13.:55:17.

that you do not offer what works for them? Of course not. People

:55:17.:55:21.

will make up the raw mind on our policies. The fact is, it has

:55:21.:55:24.

proved impossible to work with Boris Johnson and I regret that

:55:24.:55:26.

because I liked getting things done and a light co-operative working.

:55:26.:55:32.

It was not possible. We know we can work with can. Many people are a

:55:32.:55:35.

good is Ken Livingstone who has been divisive in the past and Boris

:55:35.:55:40.

Johnson is a consensual politician. That is not my experience. Where

:55:40.:55:45.

have you not achieved areas of policy in the last four years that

:55:45.:55:50.

you think you might have done before. --? Hundreds of areas. For

:55:50.:55:57.

example, I took an idea to Boris Johnson which was to allow

:55:57.:56:02.

borrowers to bring in a default of 20mph. Eight boroughs were willing

:56:02.:56:05.

to go ahead with this but he could not conceive of it and refused to

:56:05.:56:10.

give the money to those areas. When he was elected, he promised that he

:56:10.:56:15.

would not have -- he would not interfere in Barra decisions. But

:56:15.:56:19.

clearly he ignored that. He proved to me that we could not work

:56:19.:56:28.

together. He says that his has been a cycling revolution. Superhighways,

:56:28.:56:32.

a bike hire scheme. Surely you could have worked with him on this?

:56:32.:56:38.

All those ideas were worked up between me and TfL before Boris

:56:38.:56:42.

came in. But he missed out on a third very important component,

:56:42.:56:47.

which was to boost the cycling numbers beyond any sort of

:56:47.:56:54.

expectations, by funding cycling outside of the boroughs. Boris

:56:54.:57:00.

Johnson did not do that. He did not put in the third element. He spent

:57:00.:57:05.

some time with the protesters at St Paul's. We have seen disruption at

:57:05.:57:10.

the Olympic site this week. Do you approve of that? I think they

:57:10.:57:13.

should not have been building on greenfield sites. It is completely

:57:14.:57:17.

wrong. They build on Hackney Marshes and they're putting

:57:17.:57:21.

basketball pitches on Leyton Marsh. I think that is wrong. I have

:57:21.:57:24.

sympathy with the local people as sympathy with the local people as

:57:24.:57:27.

well as the occupy movement. Here is a full list of all the other

:57:27.:57:31.

is a full list of all the other candidates standing in the election.

:57:31.:57:34.

In two weeks time, we will be talking to Brian Paddick. Back to

:57:34.:57:44.
:57:44.:57:48.

So we have had panic-buying at the petrol pumps, rows over past these

:57:48.:57:52.

and the return of Gorgeous George to Parliament. Let us discuss it

:57:52.:58:02.
:58:02.:58:06.

Nick, taking the place of Isabel, we like to give you some work

:58:06.:58:09.

experience, the Government is seen as being out of touch and

:58:09.:58:14.

incompetent. According to the polls. Is this a passing phase, a mid-term

:58:15.:58:20.

blues, or is it a game changer in public perceptions? I do not think

:58:20.:58:23.

it is game changer territory because for something to be a game

:58:23.:58:26.

changer it has to affect the fundamental issue that matters,

:58:26.:58:29.

which is the economy. It appears that on the economy the

:58:30.:58:32.

Conservatives are ahead of Labour at the moment because people are

:58:32.:58:35.

not listening to the Labour message because people believe that the

:58:35.:58:40.

deficit has to be dealt with. I am not sure it is a game changer but I

:58:40.:58:43.

think it is an issue that could define the Government and define

:58:43.:58:48.

them in a dangerous way, as out of touch, posh and particularly

:58:48.:58:52.

dangerously, cynical. The reason I say that is that there was an

:58:52.:58:56.

agreed coalition line on the fuel staff, which is essentially, let's

:58:56.:59:02.

give cautious warning to the public. Francis Maude ratcheted that up,

:59:02.:59:07.

why? Because he saw it as a Thatcher moment. It was the

:59:07.:59:11.

equivalent of Thatcher stockpiling coal before the strike in 1984. The

:59:11.:59:14.

difference was that that did not inconvenience the public and this

:59:14.:59:19.

did. Maybe they should learn to stop having Thatcher moments and

:59:19.:59:27.

they might get on better. Clearly, some things -- something is awry,

:59:27.:59:30.

and you can tell that because the usual suspects on the Tory side are

:59:30.:59:35.

ganging up, David Davis and so on. They think that a watershed is

:59:35.:59:40.

taking place. And the Tory leaning press has been incredibly critical

:59:40.:59:46.

since the Budget. I think it speaks to David Cameron's indifference to

:59:46.:59:50.

media management or press management. He is always more

:59:50.:59:54.

interested in broadcasting the newspapers. It also speaks to this

:59:54.:59:59.

recurrent criticism made of Number Ten, and a perceived lack of grip

:59:59.:00:02.

at Number Ten has. The worrying thing is that in Westminster there

:00:02.:00:06.

is no conclusive answer to the question, who runs Downing Street?

:00:06.:00:09.

You would have been able to answer that under Tony Blair because

:00:09.:00:13.

Alastair Campbell and Jonathan Powell were very dominant

:00:13.:00:17.

politically. But Downing Street his foot -- Downing Street is full of

:00:17.:00:21.

technocrats rather than political operators. As it dawned on them

:00:21.:00:24.

that they face a fatwa in the Murdoch press? You only have to

:00:24.:00:28.

read the papers to see that the Murdoch press is out to destroy

:00:28.:00:32.

this government. I did is obvious will be grievance is. I think they

:00:32.:00:37.

are letting them know that they're angry. -- I think it is obvious

:00:37.:00:41.

what the grievance is. Is it not more likely that Murdoch will be

:00:41.:00:48.

more angry with the Labour Party in 2015? When you're out for revenge,

:00:48.:00:53.

you will have many partners to share your views. Maybe it may not

:00:53.:00:57.

be a game changer because of the situation with Labour. They have

:00:57.:01:02.

lost in Scotland, they have lost in Bradford West. Kumble local

:01:02.:01:06.

elections, if they lose in Glasgow and London, which they could do,

:01:06.:01:11.

then the story we will be writing about will be Mr Miliband's

:01:11.:01:18.

Politicians have been punching themselves in the face all week,

:01:19.:01:23.

but what is interesting in Bradford, quite a specific campaign similar

:01:23.:01:27.

to Scotland, is that it was not a referendum on Ed Miliband or even

:01:27.:01:32.

the economy, but it was George Galloway had a brilliant local

:01:32.:01:36.

campaign. It was positive, it had a vision that was grounded in

:01:36.:01:41.

Bradford, and he showed leadership and had alliances with the faith

:01:41.:01:44.

groups and working class communities. Meanwhile, Labour was

:01:44.:01:49.

just running a completely anti-Tory message, which was very negative

:01:49.:01:53.

and not grounded in Bradford. It is interesting that it is similar to

:01:53.:01:57.

Scotland. They assumed that the big opponent was the Tories, when that

:01:57.:02:06.

was just a fallacy. We heard from Michael Dugher that it was a social

:02:06.:02:10.

media campaign, but Ed Miliband was meant to be the Bobby Kennedy of

:02:10.:02:14.

the time, and the utterly failed. The problem is that they have been

:02:14.:02:19.

six by-elections in Great Britain since the general election, Labour

:02:19.:02:22.

have won 5, but there are signs they are not getting through in

:02:22.:02:26.

areas where they should be. They did really badly in the Scottish

:02:26.:02:29.

general election in 2011, because they were not seen as credible

:02:29.:02:34.

opposition. The most important vote is not London, it is Glasgow. If

:02:34.:02:39.

Labour loses control of Glasgow in May, people will be asking very

:02:39.:02:45.

serious questions. I am not saying they will, but PSN Day think they

:02:45.:02:53.

will take Labour. Serious Labour think they are in trouble. The big

:02:53.:02:55.

implications for our foreign policy will be discussed in parliament.

:02:55.:02:58.

There is the question of Afghanistan and Syria, and possibly

:02:58.:03:02.

this year there will be the question of an Iran-is a conflict

:03:02.:03:07.

over nuclear weapons. Those issues are discussed sensibly because of

:03:07.:03:10.

the convention that politics stops at the water's edge, but George

:03:10.:03:14.

Galloway will not observe that. this a high watermark for George

:03:14.:03:19.

Galloway now that he has had this amazing victory, he becomes one MP

:03:19.:03:24.

among 600? Speaking on foreign issues, he does not lead a party,

:03:24.:03:27.

very much an individual, an impressive individual, but is this

:03:27.:03:32.

as good as it gets? I think that is right, but he seems to be

:03:32.:03:34.

supporting Labour and their traditional way of doing politics,

:03:35.:03:39.

and the vision you are talking about of Ed Miliband being the

:03:39.:03:42.

change candidate, and he seemed really in favour of that. He is

:03:42.:03:48.

almost restoring sang something. The interesting thing will be the

:03:48.:03:52.

local elections and the mayorals. The campaign is very difficult what

:03:52.:03:55.

happened in Scotland and Bradford, because it is locally grounded and

:03:55.:03:59.

has a positive vision for London in a way that the other two did not.

:03:59.:04:04.

Will George Galloway be tempted back on to Big Brother? He has said

:04:04.:04:09.

he is a teetotaller, but will he want to sit milk when he was a cat?

:04:09.:04:15.

Is he going to be a serious person? It did not stop him winning!

:04:15.:04:18.

will have the Chilcot Inquiry published before summer, George

:04:18.:04:22.

Galloway will be responding to that. He was going to carry the can in

:04:22.:04:26.

government for this past week and the fact it may be a

:04:26.:04:34.

transformational week? Who is at there? Whose jacket is hanging by a

:04:34.:04:40.

pay? I will explain that later! Is it Francis Maude, Craig Oliver,

:04:40.:04:46.

Baroness Warsi, the unseen chairman of the Tory party? You would assume

:04:46.:04:49.

with a name like Cameron that the Prime Minister would understand.

:04:49.:04:54.

comes from much further up! There is talk that the Tories need a more

:04:54.:04:58.

vociferous and prominent party chairman, but it has never been an

:04:58.:05:01.

important role in Cabinet. I do not think they would change their

:05:01.:05:04.

approach to that. The Prime Minister has to carry the can when

:05:04.:05:10.

things go wrong, in terms of basic competence and communications.

:05:10.:05:14.

will have to... So much to talk about and we have run out of time

:05:14.:05:18.

again! That is all for this week. We are not on their bodies to

:05:18.:05:23.

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