20/01/2013 Sunday Politics London


20/01/2013

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Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics.

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The worst hostage crisis in British history has ended with terrible

:00:40.:00:45.

loss of life in the Algerian desert. What happens now as the desert

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wastes of North Africa become the new front in the war against

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Islamist terrorism? That's today's top story.

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David Cameron's big speech on Europe got delayed, but all the

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papers say it's soon and full of red meat for the Eurosceptics.

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Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander joins us for the Sunday

:01:03.:01:07.

Interview. And the Tories prepare to take on

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the teachers in a row over performance related pay. Will it

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:21.

improve standards in our schools? The two sides go head to head.

:01:21.:01:31.
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Another tough budget for councils And tweeting like crazy - the

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political team with more horsepower than a burger from Tesco - Nick

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Watt, Janan Ganesh and Isabel Oakeshott.

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Exactly what has been happening in Algeria has been unclear from the

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start, but some more facts are emerging and the news is not good.

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This morning, the Prime Minister said that at least six British

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nationals are either dead or nationals are either dead or

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missing after the hostage crisis reached a bloody climax. Yesterday,

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Algerian special forces mounted a final assault on the last Islamist

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militants holding out at the remote BP gas plant. All 32 terrorists

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have been killed, according to the Algerians, but 23 hostages are also

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dead. This is what Mr Cameron had to say from Chequers this morning.

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It is now clear that this appalling terrorist incident in Algeria is

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now over. Tragically, we now know that three British nationals have

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been killed and a further three are believed to be dead. And also, a

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further British resident is also believed to be dead. I know the

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whole country will want to join with me in sending sympathy and

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condolences to families who have undergone an absolutely dreadful

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ordeal and now face life without these very precious loved ones. The

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priority now must be to get everybody home from Algeria. Quiet-

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spoken this morning to our ambassador in Algeria's and this

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morning will be going to the south of the country to help co-ordinate

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that absolutely vital activity. Of course people will ask questions

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about the Algerian response to these events, but I would just say

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that the responsibility for these deaths lies squarely with the

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terrorists who launched this vicious and cowardly attack. I

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would also say that when you are dealing with a terrorist incident

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on this scale, with up to 30 terrorists, it is extremely

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difficult to respond and get this right in every respect.

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The Prime Minister. It has been remarkable how much the British

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Government has been little more than a mere observer as these

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events unfold. Yes. Cameron this morning looks absolutely exhausted,

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doesn't he? It is a measure of how much pressure he has been under. I

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was dealing with Number Ten and the Foreign Office yesterday and I was

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struck by how out of the look they seemed to feel. I asked them, is

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there a feeling that the response of the Algerians on Saturday has

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been heavy-handed? The answer it was we just don't know what they

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are doing. There was a real communication issue. Now that we

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know the other European powers have the technology to find out what is

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going on. We don't seem to have placed any satellites over what is

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going on. We seem to be in the dark. Unlike the Americans, which raises

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the question on whether austerity's impact on defence will be

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problematic. The Government is talking about a commitment in North

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Africa which will last decades. This government is turning out to

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be a lot more internationally active than I expected and David

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Cameron ever wanted. In opposition he gave no real interest in foreign

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policy beyond Europe. He still hasn't given a speech along the

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lines of Tony Blair's Chicago speech over foreign policy, but

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we've had intervention in Libya, Mali, Syria, with Europe on top of

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that. He's turning out to be far more globally engaged than anybody

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would have seen two or three years ago. It is unclear exactly what we

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could do or what we would have been able to do in terms of military

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power. Exactly. When this first broke, on Thursday Downing Street

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was very keen to make clear that they were not being kept informed,

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that any of the events on the ground were the responsibility of

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the Algerian government. William Hague -- William Hague this morning

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did not want to criticise the Algerian government and it is

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important to consider the context. The Algerian government in the

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1990s for to a brutal civil war against similar forces and they are

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going to take no prisoners. Liam has a very interesting piece in the

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Mail on Sunday where he is saying the world has changed as a result

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of the Arab Spring and one thing we must not forget is in some cases

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these groups feel emboldened and a country like Algeria where the

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Government hasn't changed is going to be very, very nervous about that

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threat, which explains why they respond in the way they did. Let's

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speak to Liam Fox. The article nick prefers to, you write that unless

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we confront incipient terrorist activity before it can gain a

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critical mass, we will have failed. Should we have intervened in Mali

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earlier? We have to look at the wider picture. There's been such a

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concentration of effort on what is happening in Afghanistan, Pakistan

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and the Yemen that we've seen a number of factors forcing al-Qaeda

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into a ungoverned spaces like the Sahara. We had the combined effects

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of the Arab Spring, a balding some of the -- M Golden Ring some of the

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more hardline groups. We had a lot of weaponry going down into that

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area from Libya and we've had the squeezing of al-Qaeda as a result

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of activity in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they've been displaced.

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I read in the Sunday Times that this is a 100 years' War. This is a

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perpetual state we have always been in against forces of terror. They

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turn into whatever the political shape is required at the time and

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whatever technology allows them to have. You are sounding wise after

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the event. Your strategic at Defence Review, which she carried

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out as Defence Secretary, fails to mention Algeria, Mali or the Sahara.

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The Defence Review didn't look at all of those things. That was in

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the risk review that we looked at. You ignore these areas. These are

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vital areas, you are now telling us, but your Defence Review ignore them.

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The British Defence Review can't look at the entire world. You just

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told us that unless we confront incipient terrorist activity before

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it can gain a critical mass, we will have failed. In 2010 you did

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not confront it. What I mean by we is not just the UK. This is an

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important point. The era when governments could choose to stand

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back and say that is not a part of the world that we collectively are

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going to be involved in is over. We live in a very interconnected

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global economy, our interests, whether we like it or not, will be

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threatened in many more parts of the globe than before. If we have

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to find new ways of co-operating in terms of intelligence and military

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hardware. We will have to find ways of co-operating with allies. If it

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is for the Americans to put drones over these areas so that we can

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collectively get better information on how to act, that is how we will

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have to do it. We have to find new ways of co-operating better. Europe.

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What are the minimum powers David Cameron would have to repatriate to

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London for you to advocate staying in the EU? You have to ask the

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European partners what they are willing to give us and ask what

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sort of relationship we want to have. A number of my colleagues

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have set out these are the 130 that we must get back. We have to be

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much more fundamental. This is the type of relationship we want to

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have with Europe, not quibble about which little bits we want back. I

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think the British want an economic relationship, they want to be

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trading with European partners and not a range of powers that have

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increasingly interfered... You want a lot of powers brought back.

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want us to return to a common market. Civil, judicial, criminal

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matters, for working-time directive. I would like to see us with a basic

:10:19.:10:25.

economic relationship. Her that it? Yes, at the people in Britain voted

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in 1975 for the Common Market. say the prospect of being outside

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the EU holds no terrors for you. Does it hold no terrors for David

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Cameron? For myself, my preference would be to have renegotiated

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relationship. Our I know your preference, I'm asking about David

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Cameron. Her I don't think it holds terrors. For most British

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politicians on the right of the political spectrum, we would prefer

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to have the ideal solution of being able to have that type of

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renegotiated relationship from inside. If we were put into a

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position where the British people didn't like any renegotiated

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solution, at a lot of countries exist outside the EU, it would

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undoubtedly have some difficulties, but I don't think they could not be

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overcome. If Mr Cameron succeeds in repatriating substantial powers

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from Brussels and put that the British people bin and a referendum,

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he shouldn't it be made explicit that if you vote against this

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referendum, it is a vote to leave the EU. And in out referendum has

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to mean that. If you vote for whatever the Government is

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putting... But on a semi-detached business. Her a No vote would be to

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live -- leave. We have to give that clarity in policy. For British

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people think that is what in-and- out referendum means. If you want

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the status quo, how do you vote? increasingly, if you want to have

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the status quo, vote Liberal Democrat. The this is a referendum.

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The Government would say if we won a general election mandate in 2015

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to renegotiate, this is the renegotiation we put forward this

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is what the Government is offering you to choose between. Suppose Mr

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Cameron Sharp -- Mr Cameron is unable to do a repatriation deal.

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If that was to happen, should there be a simple in out referendum?

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would be something that any government of that time would

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consider. There has to be any knout referendum because otherwise we're

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going to have award politics off constantly undermined by this

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debate. It is important that we settle the European argument.

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don't come as a country, get immediate repatriation package, and

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roughly the status quo is all that is on offer, would you prefer to

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leave? If the choice was between going and the current direction,

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which is towards ever-closer union, and ultimately a greater and

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greater loss of British sovereignty, my personal preference would be to

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leave. I don't want to have ever closer union, I don't want to be

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European first and British second. Is it not possible that Mr Cameron

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could bring back a repatriation package which you would deem to be

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inadequate and you would therefore be on opposite sides of a

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referendum? Fat is a lot of IFS! Can your other one talking about

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2018. We will see what we are able to achieve. We should not going to

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a renegotiation believing they hold all the cards. I read all the time

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that we will not be able to get this cup or they won't allow it. I

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don't believe the balance of influence his or on their side.

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we have to threaten to leave the EU to get what we want? It is very

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clear to most of our European partners that they understand

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there's a mood afoot in British politics, especially in the British

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public, but they want a genuine voice of being in or out. Most part

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as understand there's a mood in Britain in that direction. I don't

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think we have to explain it. Is it true, as we've been told, Thet you

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what -- you worked extensively briefed by Downing Street in

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advance of the speech? Your Conservative Home speech

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specifically set a bar that Mr Cameron could jump over and you are

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lined up to endorse the speech? That sounds like wishful thinking.

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I wrote my piece before I had any discussions about the speech. I

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don't think anything I wrote was inconsistent with anything I said

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before. A you satisfied with the speech? That would be going a touch

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too far in terms of confidentiality. A I'm not asking you what is in it!

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I was I broadly satisfied? Yes. I am broadly satisfied with what I

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saw the Prime Minister was intending to say. If that is the

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speech that is finally delivered, a great many of us will think it is a

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speech we've been waiting a long time for. Are you been groomed to

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return to the Cabinet? I don't think grooming is an acceptable

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form of behaviour at all. A you know what I mean. I don't know,

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those decisions are for the of Prime Minister. Friends say you're

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anxious to return. I wouldn't say that was true. I have a lot of

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things I'm doing. You would like to return to the Cabinet. Most of us

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So much for the Tories in Europe. What will Labour? Ed Miliband's

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party is currently riding high in the polls and at the moment is the

:15:49.:15:54.

bookies' favourite to win an everall majority in 2015. In a

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speech last week, Danny Alexander gave us clues about Labour's

:15:59.:16:04.

attitude to Europe. Labour, he says, does not believe in an in-out

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referendum now or in the future but he doesn't want to imply his party

:16:09.:16:14.

supports the status quo. He says Labour wants a reformed and

:16:14.:16:17.

Labour wants a reformed and plexible Europe. This, -- flexible.

:16:17.:16:23.

This, he intists is not the same as an a la carte Europe where, each

:16:23.:16:28.

country can pick which bits it wants it sign up to. His party

:16:28.:16:30.

wants reforms in the Common Agricultural Policy. Although it

:16:30.:16:33.

has to be said they have tried that bfrplt he says the kind of

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immigration we saw after the last wave the countries from Eastern

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Europe joined up, should not be allowed to happen again. Though he

:16:42.:16:46.

doesn't explain now. Douglas Alexander joins me now for the

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Alexander joins me now for the Sunday Interview.

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You heard it there from Liam Fox, he is happy with the speech. They

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will propose a major repatriation of powers. There will be a

:16:59.:17:03.

referendum, eventually, when he does this, all predicated on the

:17:03.:17:08.

next election, of course. And we will be given a choice to vote for

:17:08.:17:12.

this most semi-detached relationship or in essence, vote to

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leave. Which side would you vote on? I'm working hard to make sure

:17:18.:17:24.

that David Cameron doesn't have that choice. I understand. But the

:17:24.:17:31.

fact that this has been talked about by the former minister, Liam

:17:31.:17:37.

Fox. It was a fair question, asking him if he wanted to go get into the

:17:37.:17:42.

Cabinet, than the national interest. David Cameron was rendered

:17:42.:17:46.

speechless because of the gap between what his backbenchers will

:17:46.:17:50.

tolerate and what European partners will give him. I asked, supposing

:17:50.:17:56.

the bookies are wrong and Mr Cameron forms a majority

:17:56.:18:01.

administration, he negotiates and repat try aits and goes to the

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people and say - either vote for this semi-detached position or out?

:18:06.:18:10.

I want Britain to stay in the European Union. You will campaign

:18:10.:18:13.

for yes. I'm not convinced the strategy David Cameron is setting

:18:13.:18:17.

out is the right strategy for Britain. You would say rather than

:18:17.:18:20.

repatrioting powers, Labour would leave the case for reform over the

:18:20.:18:26.

whole of the EU. -- lead. What major reforms did you spearhead? If

:18:26.:18:29.

you want to look at discussions we are having now, justice and hem

:18:29.:18:34.

affairs the right to that opt-out in 2014 the government is talking

:18:34.:18:38.

about, was secured by the last government. What major reform did

:18:38.:18:42.

you achieve? Working with her European partners we saw the

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exfenges taking in ten former Soviet Union... That had been

:18:47.:18:51.

Margaret Thatcher's policy. If you look at the success achieved from

:18:51.:18:54.

accession moving forward, the Labour Government deserves credit.

:18:54.:19:00.

We lowered the proportion of spending on agricultural spent in

:19:00.:19:04.

the budget significantly. We want to see it go further but it

:19:04.:19:09.

continued to fall. It is now down to 30%. You say you want

:19:09.:19:14.

fundamental reform of the CAP. All British governments have wanted

:19:14.:19:17.

that since the common market Progress has been made. You didn't

:19:17.:19:22.

get fundamental reform. You cut the amount of spending. It is still the

:19:22.:19:27.

biggest single item It has fallen from 70% in the mid- 80s to a

:19:27.:19:31.

position where it is 30% of European expenditure. Let me show

:19:31.:19:37.

you what the French Agriculture Minister says." We are committed to

:19:37.:19:44.

securing a strong CAP budget for EU agriculture." You haven't a hope at

:19:44.:19:49.

all. Your point if one country says something, it doesn't guarantee the

:19:49.:19:53.

other 26... I'm making a point on reform that has been going onp

:19:53.:19:58.

since the 1950s. One minister can asay something but you have to

:19:58.:20:02.

build a consensus for change. have never done that. That's the

:20:02.:20:05.

dishonesty at the heart of a suggestion that standing by the

:20:05.:20:08.

exit door, threatening to leave, Britain is necessarily going to

:20:08.:20:12.

prevail. The last time a Labour Government promised to reform CAP

:20:12.:20:17.

Tony Blair gave away a big chunk of Britain's rebate apart of the deal

:20:17.:20:20.

and nothing very much happened. You were the Europe Minister. That was

:20:20.:20:23.

nothing to do with the CAP. It had everything to do with accession.

:20:23.:20:28.

The fact that that multi-annual financial framework was agreed

:20:28.:20:31.

reflected the fact that there were ten new members of the European

:20:31.:20:34.

Union. Of course the European budget was going to change in those

:20:35.:20:38.

circumstances and incidentally giving you are quoting French

:20:38.:20:42.

ministers, Tony Blair secured for the first time broad parity in the

:20:42.:20:44.

contribution to the European Union between France and the UK.

:20:44.:20:46.

Something that even Margaret Thatcher had not achieved during

:20:46.:20:53.

her years in power. You say that Labour would lead the case for pro-

:20:53.:20:56.

growth anti-austerity economic policies, building appliances with

:20:56.:21:00.

European partners, rather than making enemies as you say Mr

:21:00.:21:03.

Cameron is. Which partners currently in power do you have for

:21:03.:21:05.

this venture snufrpblgts look at what happened in December 201 when

:21:05.:21:10.

David Cameron walked out of the European council - A few months

:21:10.:21:16.

later we saw Francois Hollande secure additional growth compacts

:21:16.:21:20.

alongside a fiscal compact. He has introduced "the most austere budget

:21:20.:21:26.

for France in 30 years." Mob is arguing there don't need to be

:21:26.:21:31.

changes. You said you would lead the case for anti-austerity.

:21:31.:21:33.

Balance between austerity and growth nooths needs to be right one

:21:33.:21:37.

stkpwhrufrplt saying the President who has introduced the most austere

:21:37.:21:43.

budget for 30 years is one of your part fers in leading the case for

:21:43.:21:46.

anti-austerity partners. It is not credible. The person who is not

:21:46.:21:50.

credible is David Cameron. He talks in his speech from the exbe tracts

:21:50.:21:53.

we have seen about the difficulty of austerity being imposed in

:21:53.:21:57.

Europe, which is what George Osborne and he are doing in the UK.

:21:57.:22:03.

Why are you so against repatrioting powers on a major scale? A report

:22:03.:22:06.

out this morning shows it is the will of the people. Is David

:22:06.:22:14.

Cameron right to do so? 59% think right. 21 opposed. 59% think this

:22:14.:22:20.

is the time, only 28% don't We will consider where the merits of those

:22:20.:22:23.

powers lie. We think it is disingenuous to suggest it is

:22:23.:22:27.

inevitable or indeed likely that if David Cameron goes with a very long

:22:27.:22:30.

shopping list and demands these powers to come back, even in

:22:30.:22:33.

circumstances where we are not sure there is going to be fundamental

:22:33.:22:38.

treaty change that he is likely to prevail. He risks being trapped by

:22:38.:22:42.

his own rhetoric. Are people wrong to want a major repatriation of

:22:42.:22:46.

powers? Of course we recognise the concerns. Are they right or wrong?

:22:46.:22:50.

The biggest deficit in Europe at the moment, in terms of the balance

:22:50.:22:54.

between democratic change and a change in policy is a delivery

:22:54.:22:57.

deficit. They want to see a European Union contributing to a

:22:57.:23:00.

change economy but they also want to see other changes. We twapbt see

:23:00.:23:05.

those changes in the late. That's why -- we want to. That'sy said we

:23:05.:23:09.

don't sport status quo. He want to see Britain in Europe but with

:23:09.:23:13.

change. Let's clear up Labour's position on referendum and on the

:23:13.:23:18.

existing law which this coalition introduced which guarantees a

:23:18.:23:22.

referendum in the event of any transfer of powers from Westminster

:23:22.:23:28.

to Brussels. You told me you had "No plans to repeal it", I suggest

:23:28.:23:31.

these are the weasle words politicians use. Will you promise

:23:31.:23:34.

to leave that in fact for the lifetime of the next Parliament?

:23:34.:23:37.

intend to. Ed Miliband said as much on the Today programme on Thursday

:23:38.:23:41.

morning. We are not planning to change that. Obviously if there is

:23:41.:23:45.

a new piece of legislation, we will keep it under review. Will there be

:23:45.:23:49.

a commitment in the next Labour manifesto not to repeal it? I'm in

:23:49.:23:52.

the going to right the referendum on your programme. We are not

:23:52.:23:56.

planning on change the referendum lock established in this Parliament.

:23:56.:23:59.

Will you in the next manifesto, will you privatise the NHS? We are

:23:59.:24:04.

not planning on privatising the NHS either. So, you can answer that.

:24:04.:24:08.

Can you tell me - will there be a Labour manifesto commitment not to

:24:08.:24:13.

repeal the referendum? We will dedeal with this issue and other

:24:13.:24:16.

issues at the time of the manifesto. Ed Miliband said on Thursday

:24:16.:24:19.

morning we are not planning on changing the referendum lock

:24:19.:24:22.

established in this Parliament. Will you promise, if there is a

:24:22.:24:29.

transfer of power,, as agreed under Labour, to Brussels -- if there was

:24:29.:24:32.

a transfer of powers from London to Brussels, under a Labour Government,

:24:33.:24:35.

that you would put that to the people, as laid down in the

:24:36.:24:38.

legislation? Well, that is established in the legislation. It

:24:38.:24:43.

would need to be. Would you do so? It would need to meet the threshold

:24:43.:24:48.

established by the law on statute. If it meets the statute threshold

:24:48.:24:52.

it would be put to the people in a referendum. The reason people

:24:52.:24:57.

expect you to be categorical or more so, is you voted against the

:24:57.:25:00.

referendum legislation Yes at the second reading. They don't trust

:25:00.:25:06.

you. Let me explain Ywe had real concerns. These were -- why. These

:25:06.:25:12.

were share Bidwell-known europhiles like Bill Cash because it would

:25:12.:25:15.

create concerns about the level of judicial review over European

:25:15.:25:20.

policy. That's why it seemed we should raise the doubts. We didn't

:25:20.:25:24.

vote against it at third reading, there wasn't a division in the

:25:24.:25:27.

Commons. Are you prepared to rule out any kind of in-out referendum?

:25:27.:25:30.

I don't think it is the right choice for Britain and I don't

:25:30.:25:33.

think to announce a referendum years ahead on negotiation that is

:25:33.:25:35.

haven't begun make sense. Can you say under a Labour Government, bar

:25:35.:25:39.

what we were talking about, a possible vote on a transfer of more

:25:39.:25:43.

power to Brussels, that there will be, bar that, no referendum? Well,

:25:43.:25:47.

we don't believe it is right to now announce a referendum for years

:25:47.:25:50.

into the next Parliament, as I understand is what is being

:25:50.:25:52.

contemplated by David Cameron this week.

:25:52.:25:58.

So there will be no in-out... Can you be explicit - will there be no

:25:59.:26:01.

in-out referendum under a Labour Government? We don't think that is

:26:01.:26:05.

a choice that could or should be made now. We believe it is the

:26:05.:26:10.

wrong choice for tpwroin commit to up to seven years of economic

:26:10.:26:12.

instability with investment under threat as we expect the Prime

:26:13.:26:16.

Minister will announce much it is rarely rise in international

:26:16.:26:20.

relations to ever say "never" and we will need to see the changing

:26:20.:26:23.

shape of Europe in the years ahead but as we can anticipate the

:26:23.:26:27.

changing shape of Europe today, we don't think it is the right choice.

:26:27.:26:31.

Let me ask you about the developing situation in Algeria. Do you aggro

:26:31.:26:38.

that parts of North Africa, known as the Sahell, the part from the

:26:38.:26:42.

Atlantic coast through to the head sea are the cockpit of Al-Qaeda

:26:42.:26:48.

terrorism and if do you, what should Britain do? I agree that the

:26:48.:26:51.

Sahell and North Africa more generally is a greing threat

:26:51.:26:55.

because it is represents ungoverned space. In northern Mali we are

:26:55.:26:59.

talking about a country twice the size of Germany effectively under

:26:59.:27:05.

the control control of violent extremists. I don't think it serves

:27:05.:27:09.

the interests of Britain as a whole to serve the war on terrorist. I

:27:09.:27:13.

think that language was harmful rather than beneficial. I think we

:27:13.:27:17.

need to recognise this as a regional threat that demands a

:27:17.:27:21.

regional response. I would like to see an African-led response to the

:27:21.:27:25.

challenges in Mali. We have been waiting for that for over six

:27:25.:27:29.

months Yes and there are Nigerian troops due to arrive in September,

:27:29.:27:33.

which is why the French acted. Because they didn't turn up. They

:27:33.:27:37.

have more than 6,000 French nationals in Mali. But it adds

:27:37.:27:39.

urgency both to the mill train diplomatic response. It is fine for

:27:39.:27:44.

you to say a regional thing. But the reality here, there is supposed

:27:44.:27:49.

to be 5,500 West African troops going to Mali. So far fewer than

:27:49.:27:52.

100 arrived. At the meeting they decided they couldn't afford the

:27:52.:27:56.

military transport to send them. I would also point out - none of

:27:56.:28:01.

these troops has any desert training. I wouldn't dispute of of

:28:01.:28:04.

those points. I would dispute that the right response, therefore, is

:28:04.:28:08.

to put British boots on the ground. We need to recognise, first of all,

:28:08.:28:12.

that many of these insurgencies have roots that go back decades, if

:28:12.:28:16.

not centuries and secondly, have we not learned that the truth is, the

:28:16.:28:20.

way to respond to a insurgency may involve a military component by

:28:20.:28:23.

regional force bus requires a political, diplomatic and

:28:23.:28:26.

development effort as well. So far as you are concerned, the French

:28:26.:28:30.

are on their own? No, the British Government have provided aircraft.

:28:31.:28:35.

We supported that in the Commons. But there is a difference between

:28:35.:28:38.

logistical support and being in a position where an immediate

:28:38.:28:41.

response today leads to longer-terl challenges in the future. Frankly,

:28:41.:28:46.

I think now is a time for cool heads and caution in relation to

:28:46.:28:50.

the emerging threat in North Africa. Thank you for being on the Sunday

:28:50.:28:54.

Politics. Should teachers be paid according to how well they perform?

:28:54.:28:57.

The Government think so and from September it's giving head teachers

:28:57.:29:00.

from all schools in England the power to decide whether or not

:29:00.:29:04.

their staff can have a pay rise. It's likely to put Education

:29:04.:29:07.

Secretary, Michael Gove on a collision course with the teaching

:29:07.:29:10.

unions again. They accuse the Government of tearing up national

:29:10.:29:20.
:29:20.:29:22.

Giving children the best education possible. It's what teachers,

:29:22.:29:27.

parents and the Government all want. But, does performance-related pay

:29:27.:29:30.

equal better teachers? Academies like this one in east London

:29:30.:29:34.

already have the power to try that approach and the principle here

:29:34.:29:39.

supports the idea. He says not all teachers should get pay rises.

:29:39.:29:43.

have to be willing to say no because the peformance doesn't

:29:43.:29:47.

match the expectation. It's become the norm that people move from the

:29:47.:29:51.

main pay scale to the upper pay scale and it's become an

:29:51.:29:55.

expectation, rather than rewarding the peformance of the teacher.

:29:56.:30:00.

What's changing then? Well at the moment almost all newly-qualified

:30:00.:30:03.

teachers see their pay increase automatically by around �2,000 a

:30:03.:30:08.

year. So, a newly-qualified teacher outside of London who earns a sal

:30:08.:30:15.

riff just over �21,500, typically sees that rise to just over �31,500

:30:15.:30:19.

after five more years of teaching. But from September, all teachers'

:30:19.:30:27.

pay will be linked to their Key independent schoolteachers

:30:27.:30:32.

review board was tasked with looking at the options by Michael

:30:32.:30:37.

Gove, who has long been a supporter of the idea. The Department for

:30:37.:30:41.

Education says that performance- related pay would reward good

:30:41.:30:44.

teachers and it would help schools in disadvantaged areas to attract

:30:44.:30:50.

and retain the best teachers. But teaching unions are not happy. They

:30:50.:30:53.

say there's no evidence performance-related pay raises

:30:53.:30:56.

standards and they say it is further reducing morale among

:30:56.:31:03.

teachers. Helping his daughter with her homework, this English teacher

:31:03.:31:08.

works at a comprehensive school in east London. He thinks children

:31:08.:31:12.

will not be taught the softer skills employers want like

:31:12.:31:15.

communication if teachers are focused on how best to earn a pay

:31:16.:31:22.

rise. They are talking in a very narrow way, pass this bit and you

:31:22.:31:25.

will get there. When you get there you find you don't have those

:31:25.:31:30.

skills. The wherries with performance related pay that

:31:30.:31:35.

teachers will be dashed the worry is that performance-related pay

:31:36.:31:41.

will just make teachers worry about that sort of thing. Linking pay to

:31:41.:31:44.

performance is an issue that could see teachers resorting to more

:31:44.:31:48.

strike action, but the union that represents head teachers is broadly

:31:48.:31:52.

supportive of the idea, although excepts there will be losers as

:31:52.:31:56.

well as winners. Her there's no more money going into schools at

:31:56.:31:59.

the moment so the head has to decide. If they are going to pay

:32:00.:32:03.

some teachers more, they will not be able to pay others as much as

:32:03.:32:08.

they would have done. It is how their children perform in the

:32:08.:32:12.

classroom that parents will care about.

:32:12.:32:15.

With me now is the former Schools Minister, Nick Gibb, and the

:32:15.:32:25.
:32:25.:32:27.

General Secretary of the NUT, We already have performance-related

:32:27.:32:33.

elements of teachers' pay, why do we need more? In the senior levels

:32:33.:32:37.

there's some performance related pay, but lower down, teachers are

:32:37.:32:42.

generally going up in increments automatically on the basis of time

:32:42.:32:45.

served. We need to ensure their head teacher has the discretion to

:32:45.:32:48.

reward the best teachers and an incentive to recruit the best

:32:48.:32:54.

teachers. This is common practice in the private sector. The majority

:32:54.:32:58.

of companies in the private sector reward their employees on the basis

:32:58.:33:02.

of performance and if we want to raise the status of the teaching

:33:02.:33:06.

profession, we have to go down this route. We attract the best into the

:33:06.:33:11.

profession with more. Let me pick up a couple of things. He said

:33:11.:33:16.

teachers go up on the basis of time served. That is not a point.

:33:16.:33:22.

Teachers go up the pay scale on the basis of increased experience and

:33:22.:33:28.

expertise. We've had an incremental arrangement since 1920 and although

:33:28.:33:34.

it has changed quite a lot since then, it is really important that

:33:34.:33:40.

teachers can plan their career. Progression in Pavey in teaching is

:33:40.:33:44.

lower and slower than in other graduate professions. It should

:33:44.:33:48.

automatically go up regardless of performance? There are already some

:33:48.:33:55.

performance elements in teaching. You don't find people -- find

:33:55.:33:58.

people into better teachers. If there's a question about someone's

:33:58.:34:02.

performance, that needs to be addressed. If you look around the

:34:02.:34:08.

world... You make sure they have the proper professional development.

:34:08.:34:11.

The best performing countries, the best education systems are in

:34:11.:34:16.

Finland, South Korea, Singapore. They recruit teachers from the top

:34:16.:34:19.

third of students leaving university. We recruit from across

:34:19.:34:27.

the ability range. We have to move towards that model. If you want to

:34:27.:34:31.

recruit high-flyers into teaching, rapid promotion, a more flexible

:34:31.:34:35.

approach to pay and progression is the way to do it. The problem with

:34:35.:34:39.

that is that there would be rapid promotion for large numbers of

:34:39.:34:45.

people. -- if there would not be. The amount of money being put into

:34:45.:34:50.

school this year and next is frozen. You will not be able to promote

:34:50.:34:55.

people unless you are holding down the pay of fathers. We all know

:34:55.:35:05.

that teaching is essentially It is really important that we have

:35:05.:35:10.

a fair pay. Other professions also work collaboratively. I thought he

:35:10.:35:13.

would be in favour of this flexibility. It will enable schools

:35:13.:35:18.

in deprived areas, that have a problem recruiting teachers,

:35:18.:35:22.

headteachers will have the flexibility to pay beyond the pay

:35:22.:35:27.

scales and recruiter maths teacher into an inner-city school, giving

:35:27.:35:30.

those children who have been let down for decades by those inner-

:35:30.:35:35.

city failing schools the ability to have a first class education. That

:35:35.:35:40.

is how you close the attainment gap. Some of the inner cities have some

:35:40.:35:45.

of the best schools imaginable. London is doing brilliantly. The

:35:45.:35:53.

current arrangements... The existing system provides for

:35:53.:35:58.

recruitment and retention points. The really critical thing is that

:35:59.:36:06.

if those in teaching now don't see a career path, it will be a problem.

:36:06.:36:10.

You know that we are still managing to recruit teachers, but we lose a

:36:11.:36:15.

lot of them in the first five years. If Pavey is in dispute, we will

:36:16.:36:22.

have even more difficulty. -- if Pavey. Her unlike a business, which

:36:23.:36:26.

is bottom-line driven and easier to reward, schools are collegiate

:36:26.:36:33.

places. Can you separate the impact of individual teachers on any given

:36:33.:36:39.

pupil? Yes. You will not pay people on the basis of a direct formulaic

:36:39.:36:43.

approach to the exam results of their students. It will be based on

:36:43.:36:48.

a nuanced approach. Head teachers know how to conduct appraisals.

:36:48.:36:52.

They will look at the overall contribution that each is making.

:36:52.:36:56.

It is all in the hands of the head teacher. You'll have to be nice.

:36:56.:37:00.

Head teachers themselves will be appraised on the basis of how

:37:00.:37:03.

professional they are. Her Ofsted will look at how they conduct their

:37:03.:37:07.

appraisals. They will be regulated? The head teacher will be appraised

:37:08.:37:12.

by the governing body and the school itself is subject to Ofsted.

:37:12.:37:16.

Head teachers seem to want this move, they think it would be better

:37:16.:37:19.

at the teachers. For what is interesting is that in the

:37:19.:37:23.

Academy's arrangements it has been possible for those schools to opt

:37:23.:37:30.

out. By they haven't chosen to do it. When they have had the freedom

:37:30.:37:38.

to do it. Why not? Why are they not doing it? It is a cultural change

:37:38.:37:45.

in most academies. They signed up for the teachers' pay document. The

:37:45.:37:49.

Government is trying to change the culture in our schools, to move

:37:49.:37:53.

them to be more professional places so we can raise the status of

:37:53.:37:58.

teachers. That is what happens in professions outside teaching.

:37:58.:38:03.

that there's not much money around, does it not follow that the pot is

:38:03.:38:08.

largely limited so if you're going to pay her more, you will either

:38:08.:38:16.

have to freeze any of pain the less? Exactly. Not many! Head

:38:16.:38:19.

teachers have to marshal their budget carefully and they have to

:38:19.:38:25.

be able to have the flexibility to reward the best teachers. That is

:38:25.:38:31.

how you raise standards. It is like an existential threat for the NUT.

:38:31.:38:34.

You exist on national pay bargaining. This would be the end

:38:34.:38:40.

of that. We've had a review body system for quite a long time. I can

:38:40.:38:44.

assure users quite a lot of bargaining at a lot of other levels.

:38:44.:38:49.

You know what I mean. The NUT is concerned about a lot of things.

:38:49.:38:53.

Curriculum, the shape of education. Do you feel strongly enough to take

:38:53.:38:59.

industrial action? Potentially. We will have a ballot. We want to make

:38:59.:39:03.

the case for saying one of the difficulties, if you break up the

:39:03.:39:06.

system, is that every school will have to have its own pay

:39:06.:39:10.

arrangements and that will take the head teacher's eye off the ball

:39:10.:39:14.

have overseen teaching and learning. A key element of overseeing

:39:14.:39:19.

teaching quality it is the annual appraisal. It is not just about

:39:19.:39:24.

sticks, it is about training needs to nurture teachers. Those teachers

:39:24.:39:28.

not performing to their best up brought on and the extra

:39:28.:39:31.

flexibility that head teachers have will enable them to be up to reward

:39:31.:39:35.

and incentive eyes. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:35.:39:39.

Coming up in just over 20 minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead

:39:39.:39:42.

with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics across

:39:42.:39:52.
:39:52.:39:56.

Hello and welcome. Coming up later in the programme:

:39:56.:39:58.

Our exclusive survey which will tell you whether you'll be paying

:39:59.:40:02.

more council tax this year. Here with us this week -

:40:02.:40:05.

Conservative MP for Harrow East, Bob Blackman, and Labour MP for

:40:05.:40:12.

Limehouse & Poplar, Jim Fitzpatrick. Welcome.

:40:12.:40:15.

First off, it was the first fatal helicopter crash in the capital

:40:15.:40:18.

since official records began 37 years ago. The accident at Vauxhall

:40:18.:40:22.

killed two and injured 12 others. Given the place and the time, the

:40:22.:40:24.

consequences could clearly have been far more severe and it's

:40:24.:40:27.

prompted calls for a review of the number of flights and tall

:40:27.:40:35.

buildings in the capital. I think we need to ask a lot of

:40:35.:40:41.

questions. Why was the helicopter flying if the weather was bad? Why

:40:41.:40:50.

was there no warning light on the crane? Do we need to look again at

:40:51.:40:54.

who we are allowed to fly in London? Some helicopters have to

:40:54.:41:00.

fly, police helicopters and medical helicopter has a calf but there's

:41:00.:41:05.

been an increase it in the last few years. That coupled with the number

:41:05.:41:09.

of high buildings shows we need to look again at the regulations and

:41:09.:41:13.

the safety requirements. And if some of the safety requirements

:41:13.:41:18.

already in place have not been followed. People always want

:41:18.:41:20.

something to be done after something like this, but do you

:41:21.:41:29.

agree? There needs to be a review and there will be reviewed. The

:41:29.:41:36.

Prime Minister said on Wednesday there will be a review. The Air

:41:36.:41:39.

Accident Investigation Branch has got a very good track record of

:41:39.:41:42.

getting to the bottom of what happened whenever there are

:41:42.:41:45.

incidents and making recommendations. We have got many

:41:45.:41:50.

more tall buildings in London. Regulations may not have been

:41:50.:41:54.

reviewed for some time and this provides an opportunity on the back

:41:54.:42:02.

of a tragedy. Records show that in the last 20 years there have been

:42:02.:42:07.

about 12 incidents, at six or seven at Battersea, three involving the

:42:07.:42:15.

air ambulance. This sounds like it might be timely. It is obviously

:42:15.:42:18.

timely on the back of the deaths that have occurred. It did it ever

:42:18.:42:27.

come across your desk? Was it not an issue? There was never a need to

:42:27.:42:35.

review regulation on the back of any particular incident, but the

:42:35.:42:39.

Civil Aviation Authority undertakes a continuous review of aviation and

:42:39.:42:42.

safety is always at the forefront of their agenda and of the

:42:42.:42:47.

Government's agenda. This provides an opportunity to say maybe things

:42:47.:42:54.

need to be changed. Many other international cities, for high rise

:42:54.:42:59.

illuminations, flashing lights, are far more prominent. I think of

:42:59.:43:08.

Tokyo in particular. Having said that, that will be looked at.

:43:08.:43:12.

the helicopters or the building's? I can't remember whether you were

:43:12.:43:16.

somebody particularly keen on seeing the landscape of the city

:43:16.:43:22.

transformed? We should have great sympathy for the relatives of the

:43:22.:43:27.

men that died. And also express our appreciation for the firefighters

:43:27.:43:36.

and emergency services. In terms of the landscape, I don't like tall

:43:36.:43:40.

buildings and I think they are a huge risk. London's landscape has

:43:40.:43:46.

clearly changed. It demonstrates that the problems we have with both

:43:46.:43:51.

helicopters and aircraft flying across London on a daily basis. The

:43:51.:43:56.

review has to take place and I hope we will get some proper results.

:43:56.:44:00.

Something should be looked at, as the Prime Minister said. Indeed.

:44:01.:44:06.

But the clear she has to be safety for everybody concerned. -- at the

:44:06.:44:16.
:44:16.:44:17.

clear issue. This will give an opportunity to look at the cuts

:44:17.:44:23.

planned for the London Fire Brigade to see if they are appropriate.

:44:23.:44:33.

will be looking at that at some It is another tough budget round

:44:33.:44:37.

for London's councils. Raising council tax has become unsavoury

:44:37.:44:40.

for most political parties. And there is a financial incentive from

:44:40.:44:44.

Whitehall to freeze it. We found not all are prepared to accept this

:44:44.:44:50.

inducement. Once upon a time these offices were

:44:50.:44:55.

filled with council workers. Not any more. Fulham Town Hall is to be

:44:55.:45:01.

sold off a result of reducing staff and reorganising the property

:45:01.:45:05.

portfolio. The savings will help Hammersmith and Fulham deliver

:45:05.:45:08.

their sixth reduction in council tax in recent years. Often called

:45:08.:45:11.

David Cameron's favourite council, they are untroubled by the fact

:45:11.:45:15.

that the Government is giving them lest money. The country is skint.

:45:15.:45:19.

And local Government is a high spending area and there are other

:45:19.:45:23.

areas that the government has chosen not to seek reductions in,

:45:23.:45:28.

such as health care. We are in a hole, so, therefore, it is

:45:28.:45:33.

completely rational for central Government to look to reduce its

:45:33.:45:36.

spending departments accordingly. If you talk to councils across

:45:36.:45:42.

London a lot will tell you something similar: which is despite

:45:42.:45:44.

Government splashing the amount of money they get, they have managed

:45:44.:45:49.

to keep services going the way they have done bfrplt the way they've

:45:49.:45:53.

done that is by backing more efficient and streamlined. We asked

:45:53.:45:59.

every council about staffing levels. They are all employing on average

:45:59.:46:04.

370 fewer people than three years ago but 80% have not shut a library

:46:04.:46:09.

and nearly 90% have no change in elderly care entitlement. In one

:46:09.:46:13.

borough it has gone up. But increasing tax to pay for that

:46:13.:46:17.

isn't on the cards. 14 councils say they'll freeze it. Hammersmith will

:46:17.:46:21.

cut it and two plan to increase it. Nine are yet to make a decision.

:46:21.:46:26.

Seven didn't get back to us. One reason for the freezes might be

:46:26.:46:31.

Government have offered councils extra cash if he didn't raise

:46:31.:46:36.

council tax, worth the equivalent of a 1% increase. North London's

:46:36.:46:40.

Harrow hasn't taken them up on the offer. They say the priority is

:46:40.:46:43.

keeping libraries and children's services open. The council say the

:46:43.:46:47.

only way they can do that is by raising council tax by 2%. That

:46:47.:46:50.

number be is not just plucked out of the air. It is very important.

:46:50.:46:54.

If it was over 2%, under new Government rules, it would trigger

:46:54.:46:57.

a local referendum and the residents in Harrow would get a

:46:57.:47:00.

vote on whether council tax went up or not. The council say that

:47:00.:47:05.

decision has nothing to do with the fear of losing the vote. A

:47:05.:47:09.

referendum is a huge cost to the borough. �300,000. At the time when

:47:09.:47:13.

we are cutting expenditure across all areas, it's not something that

:47:13.:47:17.

can be justified. Indeed, sich is the scale of the cuts from

:47:17.:47:21.

Government, -- such is the scale, even with increased council tax,

:47:21.:47:24.

Harrow will be spending millions less this year than they did last.

:47:24.:47:29.

So, if it's possible to keep things running with less money, did

:47:29.:47:32.

councils perhaps have too much to begin with? Privately a number of

:47:32.:47:36.

leaders and chief executives will say they are surprised how little

:47:36.:47:39.

difficulty and impact there has been in making what have been real

:47:39.:47:43.

cuts. There is no question, local government have had far deeper cuts

:47:43.:47:46.

than other parts of the public sector. Tpwhu raises the question

:47:46.:47:50.

whether there is a tipping point -- but this raises the question.

:47:50.:47:57.

Whether you can manage 5%, 10% and 15%, but not 20, 25 and 30%. There

:47:57.:48:01.

are some things council is legally obliged to spend money on, the most

:48:01.:48:05.

expensive of which is social care. It's expected to increase, some say

:48:05.:48:10.

it a tipping point this. Led Barnet Council to draw up what has been

:48:10.:48:19.

called The Grf Of Doom. Graph. It show house children's services and

:48:19.:48:25.

social care is expected to rise while it's budget will fall. The

:48:25.:48:28.

graph predicts all the budget will be taken up with these things,

:48:28.:48:32.

leaving no money for anything else, no libraries, leisure centres or

:48:33.:48:36.

parks. Some think this scenario may never come to pass and many in

:48:36.:48:40.

London are worried while the cuts so far may have been manageable,

:48:40.:48:46.

the future may look very bleak. Bob Neill has joined us a former local

:48:46.:48:49.

government minister and Conservative MP from Bromley and

:48:49.:48:53.

Chislehurst. We were part of the regime that offered this extra

:48:53.:48:58.

grant. Are you all right?! Still alive?! Jim is amazed we have two

:48:58.:49:03.

West Ham supporters in the studio. We will come to that. Not often in

:49:03.:49:10.

front. You set up the regime that offered this inducement of a grant

:49:10.:49:13.

in councils froze their council tax. -Ar yes have looked at it and have

:49:13.:49:18.

worked out that doesn't make sense for them thae, fair enough, stpbt.

:49:18.:49:23.

- Harrow have looked at it. Think it is a sad decision. There is more

:49:23.:49:26.

to it. We said under the previous Labour Government, the Secretary of

:49:26.:49:29.

State, if you like, controlled how much you could put your council tax

:49:29.:49:33.

up by capping it. We got rid of that and said if you want to put

:49:33.:49:37.

your council tax up by more than the normal amount, if you have a

:49:37.:49:41.

really good case, you go and make that case to your electors. Harrow

:49:41.:49:44.

have chickened out. They have gone for the maximum they can get away

:49:44.:49:50.

with without asking electors Ydid they do this? Bob Blackmore will be

:49:50.:49:54.

able it till, he is the local MP. Labour got fewer votes than the

:49:54.:49:57.

Conservatives in Harrow it is last election. They managed the get nor

:49:57.:50:01.

seats because of the boundaries. They knew they would lose. Harrows

:50:01.:50:07.

electors will make their decision in two years' time. One year time.

:50:07.:50:14.

But the sad thing is a if we had a brave council, they would ask that

:50:14.:50:18.

question now, rather than take the money off them. What hold a

:50:18.:50:25.

referendum and pay the cost. There have been referendums. How much do

:50:25.:50:30.

referendums cost? �300,000? If you are going to be serious, Tim, about

:50:30.:50:34.

localism, localism doesn't shop just at the door of the Town Hall,

:50:34.:50:38.

it is about giving control back to communities as well. If you are

:50:38.:50:42.

serious about localism, why don't you leave it the to the local

:50:42.:50:46.

authority? The people to raise the money they feel are needed for

:50:46.:50:49.

their local services and an electorate will decide over the

:50:49.:50:53.

four-year cycle or whatever, whether it was competent and a good

:50:53.:50:57.

use of public money. I think you are forgetting the history. This is

:50:57.:51:01.

actually a devolutionry measure this government brought. In for all

:51:01.:51:06.

the years under John Prescott, the years when Jim was a member of the

:51:06.:51:09.

Government, the central Government proscribed the maximum budget. We

:51:09.:51:13.

have got rid of that and allowed the local people in the community

:51:13.:51:17.

to decide. We should be congratulated not criticised for

:51:17.:51:22.

that. Collar if I something:. If local -- clarify something. If

:51:22.:51:25.

local collectors wanted to preserve services and wanted council taxs to

:51:25.:51:29.

go up, could there be a referendum asking for a higher rate for the

:51:29.:51:32.

council, say Westminster - which want Westminster to put our council

:51:32.:51:35.

tax up. Could there be a referendum? It doesn't seem to work

:51:35.:51:39.

the right way. I think you are missing the point. Local councils

:51:39.:51:44.

have a duty to provide a budget. They have the statutory duty to

:51:44.:51:47.

provide the services. They produce the budget. In the old days there

:51:47.:51:51.

was a national cap on what they could do about how much they put

:51:52.:51:54.

their council tax up. What we have said is they can do two things..

:51:54.:51:59.

You are saying, no, they can't have the right to put up the council tax.

:51:59.:52:04.

It is not the whole picture about localism. You are not giving the

:52:04.:52:08.

whole context, if you forgive me saying so. The context is firstly

:52:08.:52:12.

we are recognising for lower waged people, the council tax is a

:52:12.:52:15.

significant amount of their cost of living so we have sought to

:52:15.:52:19.

restrain that. I think that's desirable. Secondly we have said -

:52:19.:52:22.

you have the statutory duty to provide the services. If you say

:52:22.:52:27.

the way you wanted to provide those services will cost more, you should

:52:27.:52:31.

ask your local residents. Fitzpatrick, what do you think?

:52:31.:52:35.

think it's fascinating to be attacked by a fellow West Ham fan.

:52:35.:52:40.

His heart is clearly not in it. The Government have changed the rules.

:52:41.:52:44.

East London councils like Tower Hamlets, Newham and Hackney are

:52:44.:52:49.

losing in Government revenue over �200 per resident compared to kings

:52:49.:52:54.

stone, Sutton, Richmond, who are losing pennies. So the loss for

:52:54.:52:58.

boroughs where there are greater poverty issues, where there are

:52:58.:53:04.

greater needs, where there are more you will have nerblt, those

:53:04.:53:08.

boroughs are losing more. -- vulnerability. It is great for Bob

:53:08.:53:14.

to say - we are providing localism. Localism says trust the council.

:53:14.:53:23.

But local residents then say, we do or don't endorse it. Let's bring in

:53:23.:53:33.
:53:33.:53:38.

Black - Bob Blackmore. The area you represent, compared to Brent, next

:53:38.:53:43.

door, Harrow is regarded as outer London but with inner London

:53:43.:53:47.

problems, they are stkpwg to have to make �25 million worth of cuts

:53:47.:53:53.

even before the rise. The clear issue is before the 2010 general

:53:53.:53:56.

election, everyone involved in local government knew whoever won,

:53:56.:54:00.

there would be reductions in local authority expenditure. Everyone

:54:00.:54:03.

knew that. And everyone should have planned for it and understood it

:54:04.:54:10.

was going to happen. Now -ar yes, for example, have turned their

:54:10.:54:15.

backs -- Harrow, have turned their backs on Government grants. One of

:54:15.:54:18.

the issue abouts a council tax freeze was that it was a one year

:54:18.:54:22.

option. And people might have said it was risky because what happens

:54:22.:54:25.

if the Government don't provide it next year. Now they have

:54:25.:54:28.

incorporated that in the Government grant going forward. Harrow have

:54:28.:54:31.

said not only are they going to increase it by 2% this year but

:54:32.:54:35.

next year and the year after that. So what we are looking at is they

:54:36.:54:40.

have rejected the potential, at least of �3.6 million of Government

:54:40.:54:46.

money and instead inflicted that on the council tax payers instead.

:54:46.:54:49.

final thought, Bromley, your local Conservative council want to do the

:54:49.:54:52.

same thing. Bromley will ultimately take its decision. We haven't had

:54:52.:54:58.

the full council meeting. What have they got wrong? Hang on. If would

:54:58.:55:02.

helpful if you would let people make a point, really, wouldn't it?

:55:02.:55:07.

Let me point out that Harrow receives one-third more central

:55:07.:55:11.

Government support than Bromley does. Jim's authority receives

:55:11.:55:15.

nearly three times' as much central Government support as Bromley.

:55:15.:55:19.

you happy for Bromley to make that decision? I hope they will not. I

:55:19.:55:23.

think all councils should be seeking to keep it down and not to

:55:23.:55:31.

pass it on. It reflects that it is not something you can pin on Labour

:55:31.:55:35.

over-spending Islington has said it can freeze council tax until 2015

:55:35.:55:41.

and made all of its savingings of �30 million on efficiencies. There

:55:41.:55:45.

is a an inner London council, they can do it. Why can't Harrow?

:55:45.:55:48.

Stkpwhroo look at Hammersmith and Fulham, they are redousing their

:55:49.:55:52.

council tax for the sixth time in seven years. Look at Hammersmith

:55:52.:55:55.

and Fulham. They are reducing. Thank you for coming. In

:55:55.:56:00.

A are you has broken out over what councils are allowed to do to

:56:00.:56:03.

clampdown on illegal sex shops. Westminster Council, is trying to

:56:03.:56:06.

overturn a court ruling which says it cannot use the money it receives

:56:06.:56:11.

from the licences for legal establishments, to take enforcement

:56:11.:56:16.

action against illicit ones. Jerry Thomas has more details.

:56:16.:56:21.

Running a licensed sex shop in Soho is an expensive business.

:56:21.:56:25.

Westminster Council charges �19,000 for an annual trading licence this.

:56:25.:56:29.

Amount and what it is used for has sparked a rou. The council contends

:56:29.:56:33.

a large part of this revenue is required to help with the cost of

:56:34.:56:38.

tackling unlicensed sex shops. However six proprietors of licensed

:56:38.:56:43.

shops have done to the High Court and argued under an EU direct

:56:43.:56:48.

riffive the proceeds from licencing sex shops can nobt used for

:56:48.:56:58.
:56:58.:57:01.

Westminster Council believes this EU legislation could open the flood

:57:01.:57:05.

gates for illegal sex shops. Audrey lieu sis here from

:57:05.:57:09.

Westminster Council. She is a councillor who is the chair of the

:57:09.:57:13.

licencing committee at the council. -- Audrey Lewis is here. What are

:57:13.:57:17.

you going to do about this? We have appealed the High Court decision.

:57:17.:57:21.

We have just had really quite good news, encouraging news, which is

:57:21.:57:25.

that the Appeal Court have now said that they are minded to refer it

:57:25.:57:30.

back to the European Court of Justice. But the basic principle,

:57:30.:57:36.

why are you charging �20,000 or so to licence sex shops, using some of

:57:36.:57:41.

that money, not for other purposes, but used to endorse and take action

:57:41.:57:46.

against illegal ones? Well it is a general principle of how licencing

:57:46.:57:49.

works. In every kind of category of licencing pretty more or less, the

:57:49.:57:53.

cost of actually running the whole system for that group of premises

:57:53.:57:58.

or whatever it might be, is - includes the cost of making sure

:57:58.:58:03.

that illegal traders can't operate. But �20,000. How much do you charge

:58:03.:58:08.

a casino, for instance? Casinos are in a completely different cat gre.

:58:08.:58:12.

Is it anything like remote the �20,000. Why do you charge

:58:12.:58:16.

particularly more for sex shops? The reason we charge this for sex

:58:16.:58:21.

shops is because that's what it costs to us do it. Ten years ago we

:58:21.:58:27.

had 60 illegal sex shops in Soho. We spent a fortune... Costs to do

:58:27.:58:31.

it. Costs to police the whole area, the illegal ones included? Because

:58:31.:58:34.

when you deal with an illegal sex shop you have to look at every

:58:34.:58:38.

detail of how they operate. You actually have to look at the DVDs.

:58:38.:58:45.

We have got people, sadly, who spend their time checking DVDs and

:58:45.:58:50.

making certain they aren't containing disgusting things

:58:50.:58:54.

which... But the principle you should penalise and make it much

:58:54.:58:57.

harder on the legitimate ones, who are running decent businesses and

:58:57.:59:02.

you have no complaint about, and make them pay for the cost.

:59:02.:59:06.

legitimate ones have been greatful over the years, we have turfed out

:59:06.:59:10.

the bad practitioners. There is a terrible market for bad sex

:59:10.:59:14.

information and, unfortunately, people who do it make a fortune.

:59:14.:59:19.

And the sex shops which have been reduced now down to six because we

:59:19.:59:23.

closed another one yesterday, have been extremely grateful. It is a

:59:23.:59:26.

way of just trying to curtail legitimate, you know, free trade

:59:26.:59:31.

sex shops in the area, isn't it? it is trying help the legitimate

:59:31.:59:34.

sex shops who have been making good money over the years. I suspect

:59:34.:59:38.

what is hitting them now is they, like a lot of the retail trade,

:59:38.:59:41.

they are being hit by what is happening on the internet. It is

:59:41.:59:45.

not fair in terms of European terms, and you understand why the EU have

:59:45.:59:49.

got involved, they have not just the normal costs of running a

:59:49.:59:53.

business, they are having it pay this extra penalty, you impose on

:59:53.:59:58.

them Every year we look at how much it cost. If we it got to the point

:59:58.:00:01.

where we had foo illegal sex shops we would still have to have some

:00:01.:00:05.

regime of making sure they weren't operating illegally but

:00:05.:00:10.

nevertheless, across every type of business - it is also true of

:00:10.:00:13.

premises like alcohol premises. There you have to spend a lot of

:00:13.:00:20.

money on enforcement. You can asked me about casinos. I can't give you

:00:20.:00:23.

a sensible answer because the Government stepped. In I wanted an

:00:23.:00:31.

example. We will watch the appeal It's time for a round-up of the

:00:31.:00:41.
:00:41.:00:42.

rest of the political news in 60 314 mobile phones are stolen every

:00:42.:00:46.

day in the capital. It was revealed as the Met launched a campaign to

:00:46.:00:51.

cut street robbery. Mobile thefts account for 70% of items taken in

:00:51.:00:56.

personal robberies. To taxi for Peter Hendy. The boss

:00:56.:01:02.

of Transport for London her boss might expenses were revealed,

:01:02.:01:05.

including the cost of 400 cab journeys.

:01:05.:01:09.

Is this camera Hammersmith and Fulham's golden goose. This

:01:09.:01:14.

reduction has netted the council nearly �300 million in fines as

:01:14.:01:17.

motorists get caught waiting to turn at traffic lights.

:01:17.:01:22.

London Premiership football clubs are paying for just 60% of the

:01:22.:01:26.

policing costs incurred during their matches. Some of the richest

:01:26.:01:30.

football clubs in the country are not paying the full cost of the

:01:30.:01:34.

policing costs for their matches. Chelsea came close to bottom of

:01:34.:01:42.

this London League, stumping up just 36% of the costs.

:01:42.:01:49.

More bad news for Chelsea! Let's talk about West Ham. London clubs

:01:50.:01:54.

are quite happy to pay for policing inside the grounds, but not outside,

:01:54.:02:00.

is that sustainable? I don't think so. We for tax avoidance of

:02:00.:02:05.

Starbucks and Amazon and the others, the whole spotlight of corporations

:02:05.:02:08.

paying the appropriate level of tax on the appropriate amount for

:02:08.:02:13.

services such as policing football matches is in sharp relief. The

:02:13.:02:19.

fact that clubs in London on not paying an appropriate about...

:02:19.:02:23.

Boris Johnson say come on, this can't remain. One of the problems

:02:23.:02:27.

is that for a lot of local authorities and police authorities

:02:27.:02:32.

with in London, it is a huge drain on the resources. In Hammersmith

:02:32.:02:37.

and Fulham they have three Premier League clubs. It is quite clear

:02:37.:02:41.

that football clubs are charging spectators huge money, let's make

:02:41.:02:51.
:02:51.:02:54.

sure they pay for policing. Thank In a moment, we'll look ahead to

:02:54.:02:56.

the big stories that will dominate politics next week with our

:02:56.:03:00.

political panel, but first the news at noon with Maxine Mawhinney.

:03:00.:03:03.

Good afternoon. The Prime Minister has said that

:03:03.:03:06.

three British nationals are now known to have been killed during

:03:06.:03:09.

the hostage crisis at a gas plant in Algeria. David Cameron said

:03:09.:03:12.

three more British nationals and a British resident were also feared

:03:12.:03:15.

dead. Algeria said its special forces ended the stand-off

:03:15.:03:17.

yesterday because Islamist militants were planning to blow up

:03:17.:03:27.
:03:27.:03:30.

the site. This report from James The four day siege is finally over.

:03:30.:03:34.

These pictures are believed to show one of the first attempts by

:03:34.:03:41.

Algerian forces to end it. Algeria says at least 23 hostages and 32

:03:41.:03:45.

militant hostage takers are dead. These are glimpses of the ordeal

:03:45.:03:48.

suffered by the hostages. They seem to show workers so rendering in

:03:48.:03:53.

front of the kidnappers. responsibility for these deaths

:03:53.:03:57.

lies squarely with the terrorists who launched this vicious and

:03:57.:04:02.

cowardly attack. I would also say that when you're dealing with a

:04:02.:04:06.

terrorist incident on this scale, with up to 30 terrorists, it is

:04:06.:04:11.

very difficult to respond and to get this right in every respect.

:04:11.:04:15.

The crisis began on Wednesday morning when gunmen attacked the

:04:15.:04:20.

desert gas complex, taking hundreds hostage. On Thursday an initial

:04:21.:04:24.

assault by Algerian forces killed militants and captive stock

:04:24.:04:29.

although many other hostages escaped. Yesterday, with 11 Gardner

:04:29.:04:34.

et -- gunmen holed up with seven hostages, the Algerian army stormed

:04:34.:04:38.

the complex. A special British team has been sent to the area to help

:04:38.:04:42.

the surviving and repatriate the dead. Many British hostages have

:04:42.:04:46.

already returned home. These pictures shown on Algerian

:04:46.:04:50.

television are said to be part of the arsenal of weapons used by the

:04:50.:04:54.

militants. This is apparently what one freed hostage saw as he walked

:04:54.:04:58.

past some victims. Another indication of a horrors of the past

:04:58.:05:01.

few days. Tributes have been paid to four

:05:01.:05:05.

climbers who were killed by an avalanche in the Scottish Highlands.

:05:05.:05:08.

A service was held in their memory at a church in Glencoe. The party

:05:08.:05:11.

of six were caught up in the avalanche on Bidean Nam Bian

:05:11.:05:15.

yesterday afternoon. Around 260 flights are to be

:05:15.:05:17.

cancelled at Heathrow and several Eurostar trains between London and

:05:17.:05:23.

Brussels and Paris have also been cancelled. Ice and freezing

:05:23.:05:26.

temperatures are expected across the UK, as well as more snow for

:05:26.:05:36.

the next week. Louise Hubball is in Barton in Cambridgeshire for us now.

:05:36.:05:40.

It has been snowing heavily in Cambridgeshire for around the past

:05:40.:05:46.

hour. Snow and ice are already causing problems on unquoted roads.

:05:46.:05:50.

We are expected significant snowfall here and in the south-east,

:05:50.:05:53.

East and parts of the country, of the North Midlands and possibly

:05:53.:05:58.

into north-east Wales. The advice for motorists is to check your

:05:58.:06:03.

local forecast before travelling and be aware of the icy conditions.

:06:03.:06:06.

Rail and air passengers are also advised to check your services are

:06:06.:06:11.

running before leaving home. Thank you.

:06:11.:06:15.

That's all the news for now - there will be more here on BBC One at

:06:15.:06:21.

Thank you. So, Friday's big speech got cancelled, leaving Fleet

:06:21.:06:26.

Street's finest stranded in Amsterdam. What did they all find

:06:26.:06:30.

to do? We learned this morning that David Cameron is determined to make

:06:30.:06:40.
:06:40.:06:45.

Europe the big story in The Week From Dr Fox, he has seen the speech,

:06:45.:06:50.

he is pretty happy and he thinks the referendum, if we ever get to

:06:50.:06:55.

that, saying either vote for this package of repatriated powers

:06:55.:07:00.

although no against it, the same as voting out. In-out referendum.

:07:00.:07:04.

is interesting is all the attention this week has been on the Tory

:07:04.:07:09.

position on this, but actually all the polls point to have a

:07:09.:07:13.

convincing Labour majority in the next election. The most interesting

:07:13.:07:16.

thing to look at is what Labour's position is and what they will

:07:16.:07:21.

offer people. What I find curious is that Labour seems so determined

:07:21.:07:25.

to deny people their say on this issue. They are not prepared to

:07:25.:07:34.

commit to a referendum. We got Mr Alexander saying we will not get

:07:34.:07:38.

rid of the referendum Locke. That is the easiest because that only

:07:38.:07:42.

affects powers going from London to Brussels. Under Labour that is

:07:42.:07:47.

unlikely. I am still not sure if he categorically rules out an in-out

:07:47.:07:51.

referendum. He doesn't want one. For Labour Party is in a difficult

:07:52.:07:56.

position. It will look difficult if that the next election they say we

:07:56.:07:58.

don't need to renegotiate the terms of membership and we don't need a

:07:58.:08:04.

referendum. But they are concerned that if Ed Miliband were to become

:08:04.:08:08.

Prime Minister, he would lumber himself with a referendum. Have so

:08:08.:08:12.

we are seeing with this delayed speech by the Prime Minister, it --

:08:12.:08:16.

it is a nightmare once you commit yourself to a referendum. They are

:08:17.:08:21.

persuaded by the Michael Heseltine argument, how can you call a

:08:21.:08:24.

referendum on a negotiation you don't know whether it will take

:08:25.:08:28.

place? If it doesn't take place -- if it does take place, you don't

:08:28.:08:33.

know when or what it will end up with. That is quite difficult.

:08:33.:08:38.

Meanwhile you have a question over the membership of the EU. Kit is a

:08:38.:08:43.

bold thing to say and that is why Dr Fox seemed reasonably happy to

:08:43.:08:46.

say if I can do it, I will offer you this more semi-detached

:08:46.:08:52.

relationship with Europe and if you reject that, we are out. It raises

:08:52.:08:58.

expectations for that renegotiation. I would not do that. I would expect

:08:58.:09:03.

he renegotiate very little, if those renegotiate since happen at

:09:03.:09:07.

all. We have seen some of the extracts of this speech and what

:09:07.:09:11.

struck me about them was how cautious they were. Or he says his

:09:11.:09:16.

we should reform Europe, he doesn't mention renegotiation or specified

:09:16.:09:22.

areas of law he is trying to bring back. It is either my way of a

:09:22.:09:26.

highway. A repatriation or out. He has kept that back. He is holding

:09:27.:09:32.

it back so it has the maximum possible political impact. I don't

:09:32.:09:38.

know how Nick or Isabelle feel, but I suspect that will work. I want to

:09:38.:09:44.

show you this. Mr Cameron's position even makes Taiwanese

:09:44.:09:52.

television. Eurosceptics have long complained about subsidies to the

:09:52.:09:59.

EU. They want an in-out referendum. At the same time, Cameron has

:09:59.:10:06.

strong -- drawn criticism from its junior coalition partner. Meanwhile,

:10:06.:10:14.

Cameron has been flanked by UKIP, which is riding high in the polls

:10:14.:10:23.

and drawn support from Tories. Taiwanese take on British politics!

:10:23.:10:28.

This buys Mr Cameron time. Yes. I am slightly lost for words after

:10:28.:10:35.

that clip! We can't afford these graphics. What I've taken from

:10:35.:10:39.

talking to Tory MPs this week, who have seen these brief extract of

:10:39.:10:43.

the speech, and some of whom have been taken and confidence about

:10:43.:10:47.

what the speech will say, they seem to be fairly happy. There's always

:10:47.:10:52.

going to be a hardcore of 25 or so who are hostile. If he can live

:10:52.:10:58.

with that. Exactly. A Liam Fox is happy with the speech and he wants

:10:58.:11:02.

us to go back to the Common Market. Going back to the Common Market

:11:02.:11:05.

means dismantling Margaret Thatcher's greatest legacy, the

:11:06.:11:10.

single market. The rules of the single market are decided on the

:11:10.:11:14.

basis of qualified majority voting where nobody has a veto. David

:11:14.:11:18.

Cameron will not dismantle VAT and Liam Fox thinks he is going to. You

:11:18.:11:25.

have to have one of the other. Let's move on to plebgate. You had

:11:25.:11:31.

a story of the Sunday Times this morning. For public administration

:11:31.:11:35.

committee is going to have a go at the Cabinet Secretary and it thinks

:11:35.:11:41.

he made a mess of the investigation. That's right. The report published

:11:41.:11:44.

shortly will be extremely uncomfortable reading for Jeremy

:11:44.:11:49.

Heywood and Number Ten. It will be highly critical of the way Number

:11:49.:11:55.

Ten handled the affair. It will raise serious questions about why,

:11:55.:11:59.

when Jeremy Heywood, who was given a role investigating what happened,

:11:59.:12:03.

he admitted he was suspicious that Andrew Mitchell might have been a

:12:03.:12:10.

victim of what he described as a gigantic conspiracy. Why did Number

:12:10.:12:14.

Ten allow Andrew Mitchell to swim in the wind for three weeks? Should

:12:14.:12:20.

week preparing for the return of Mr Mitchell and Mr Fox, Dr Fox?

:12:21.:12:24.

Perfectly conceivable that both will be back before the next

:12:24.:12:29.

election. This is far more of the Jeremy Heywood story. I can't think

:12:29.:12:33.

of the last civil servant in this country who was last talked about

:12:33.:12:38.

so much in public. He divides opinion. Some say he is too

:12:38.:12:41.

influential and some say he is a restraining force on the reformers

:12:41.:12:46.

in government. Let's not forget there's a political decision made

:12:46.:12:50.

in Downing Street. That was that the only way to save Andrew

:12:50.:12:54.

Mitchell was to accuse the police of lying and that was a line they

:12:54.:12:58.

were not prepared to grasp at that stage. They would be now! For a

:12:58.:13:03.

would be willing now. Jeremy Heywood was very lackadaisical and

:13:03.:13:06.

he did not do anything about it. They were not willing to take on

:13:06.:13:11.

the police. Will he required? will probably come through this. He

:13:11.:13:15.

is a very powerful figure. It depends whether the people under

:13:15.:13:19.

him up a pair to knife him. For a couple of months ago he could walk

:13:19.:13:23.

on water. I think he will recover because there's a vacuum of

:13:23.:13:27.

authority in Number Ten and he fills it. The Prime Minister has

:13:27.:13:31.

known him for 20 years because he was private secretary to Norman

:13:31.:13:35.

Lamont when he was a special adviser and he highly rates him.

:13:35.:13:40.

have more snow coming this week. It will bring the country to a halt

:13:40.:13:44.

again! We have the GDP figures for the last quarter of last year which

:13:44.:13:49.

may show we are back in another dip. More good news for the Government!

:13:49.:13:57.

We will cover all of that next week. For today, that's all. Jo Coburn

:13:57.:14:01.

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