16/06/2013 Sunday Politics London


16/06/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Is this man a

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racist thug with a taste for trouble or a voice of ordinary

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people in the face of Islamic fundamentalism? We'll ask English

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Defence League leader Tommy Robinson to come clean. The G8

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returns to the UK and the anti- capitalist protestors are gearing

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up, we'll go head to head on the evils - and virtues - of capitalism.

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And it is welfare reform's equivalent of the magic bullet. But

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could universal credit shoot the And with me, as always, the best

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and the brightest political panel in the business - Helen Lewis,

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Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt - who will be tweeting throughout the

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I must be the supreme leader. Pressure is growing on David

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Cameron this morning over Syria. After the US promised to increase

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support for the rebels after their confirmation that President Assad

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has used chemical weapons, crunch time is coming when it comes to

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deciding whether to arm the opposition. If the Prime Minister

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decides to go for it, he is going to have a tough time getting it

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through Parliament, not least with his colleague, the Deputy Prime

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Minister, Nick Clegg, who has been speaking to the BBC's Jeremy Vine

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this morning. He made it clear he has not signed up for arming the

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rebels at all. David Cameron has been leading the way to arm the

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rebels. The French have come onside and now the Americans have come

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onside. I suggest to you the problem for the Prime Minister is

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he does not have the House of Commons on side. I know a lot of

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Tory MPs who are very hawkish bus- stop they were very tough on the

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war on terror in the past decade. - - very hawkish. If there is a

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nervousness present amongst these MPs, you can imagine the feeling

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amongst Lib Dem MPs and Labour MPs. The interview with Nick Clegg was

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fascinating. On foreign policy there is usually agreement. To have

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disagreement is very striking. follow events in the House of

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Commons closely. Labour is against. They have not been definitive. I

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spoke to Douglas Alexander. He is clear he does not want to do it. If

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the Lib Dems do not want to do it, there is no majority.

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Conservative MPs wrote to David Cameron saying they should have a

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vote on it. They were saying they were quite wary about how the boat

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would go. He said William Hague over to America to come back with a

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multinational Agreement. What will the Americans make over this?

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Privately complaining that Mr Obama is not focused enough on events in

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the Middle East? He now says, you are probably right, we need to do

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something. The Americans are divided. Bill Clinton gave a speech

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in private last week. He was incredibly critical of Barack Obama.

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Over the Iraq War, Parliament was to -- was divided in 2003. I

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interviewed David Cameron. He made a really interesting point. He said,

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you critics of wanting to arm the rebels say, we cannot do that

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because that would mean a arming extremists. If we do not take

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action, the moderate forces in the opposition will not be strong and

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we will strengthen the extremists. He does not have the party with him.

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I wrote a report 10 days ago saying that George Young, the Chief Whip,

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had gone to the Prime Minister and said, you have not got the numbers.

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Julian Lewis led the campaign in the 1980s against CND. He has said,

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do not go in there. If you do, chemical weapons will be and has a

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pretty unpleasant groups. We will come back to this later in the

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programme. -- will be in the hands. It has been a little over three

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weeks since the slaughter of Drummer Lee Rigby, outside his

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barracks in Woolwich, but the shock and anger continues to be felt and

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relations between the Muslim and non-Muslim populations in some of

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our cities are fragile. The English Defence League has been on the

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march since Lee Rigby's death, launching a renewed campaign on the

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streets that they say is focused only on radical Islam but which

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often looks and sounds as if it is motivated by hostility to all

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Muslims. This morning I spoke to the leader of the English Defence

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League - a man who says his name is Tommy Robinson. That is coming up

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in a moment. But first, here's Adam Fleming on the rise of the EDL. The

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English Defence League was founded in Luton in 2009. It was in

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response to a protest by a local Islamist group against a homecoming

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parade for the Royal Anglian Regiment, who were returning from a

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tour of duty in Iraq. The movement spread rapidly. Frequently

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attracting hundreds, even thousands, of supporters. Tommy Robinson, the

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leader of the EDL, says the aim is to stop the spread of Islamic

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extremism and Sharia law. They oppose the building of new mosques.

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Critics say it is a violent, racist group. Many supporters are former

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members of the BNP on National Front. Members have been pictured

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making Nazi salutes. They say it is a peaceful protest movement.

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Opponents 0.2 frequent violence at the rallies. There were clashes

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with the police when supporters gathered in Woolwich after the

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murder of Drummer Lee Rigby last month. You'll always find a big

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police presence at their Damos, along with those opposed the EDL.

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Six men were jailed for planning a terrorist attack at a rally in

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Dewsbury last year. While the Government is clamping down on

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Islamic extremism, David Cameron has said he will not tolerate the

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attitude of groups like EDL either. There is a serious threat against

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me. Five, six men have been jailed for planning to kill us. I have to

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wear a bullet-proof vest. People wish to kill me. What is the name

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and your birth certificate? Stephen Yaxley. We could call you that.Yes.

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We did find your birth certificate. You were born Stephen Christopher

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Yaxley in Luton. I was born with a father, who is not my dad. I was

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adopted. The confusion over your names has a one advantage. It

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concealed for a time that you had once been a member of the racist

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BNP. I join them in 2004. When you are drowning, new clutch at straws.

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My town has been drowning for many years. I was looking for a way out.

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I was looking for somebody to be addressing the problem. When I

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joined for a year, I did not rejoin. I did not know that nit -- Nick

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Griffin was the ex-leader of the National Front. When I knew what it

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was about, it was not for me. Serious issues started. I had

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family security to hide. I have had armed police guard at my house was

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dug I do not get the same protection that Islamic extremists

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get. -- at my house. You can see daily threats against killing my

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children and my wife. It has destroyed my family and my security.

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You say you have never threatened violence against the British Muslim

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community. The EDL only supports peaceful protest. This is what is

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said on 3rd September, 2011, in London. Every single Muslim

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watching this video on YouTube, on 7/7, you got away with killing and

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maiming British citizens. You got away with it. Next time you think

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about it, you had better understand that we have built a network. We

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will not tolerate it. The Islamic community will feel the full force

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of the English Defence League if we see any of our citizens killed,

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maimed or hurt on British soil ever again. The Islamic community will

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feel the full force of the English Defence League. That is a pretty

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explicit threat. It is not a threat, it is a promise. We will highlight

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these issues. They are a pressure organisation. We put pressure on

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the Government and Islamic community. I am seeing the summit

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leaders coming out. They are saying the problems are per masks. You did

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not say you would raise it with your MP, you said they will feel

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the full force of the English defence leaked. You said the

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Islamic community - everyone who is a Muslim. -- the English Defence

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League. Just the same way, when we were introduced on here. You spoke

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of the National Front. They are not in our organisation. Bespoke of

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people being pictured doing not seen salutes. -- ate you spoke.

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Islamism is spreading across the country. People did not think you

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are talking about writing to your MP. They knew you were talking

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about violence. It makes you into a self styled anti- Muslim vigilante

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group. It does not at all.You are taking the law into your her own

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hands. You said they will feel the full force of the English Defence

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League if we see any of our citizens killed, maimed or heard.

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Through the democratic process. You're taking your own explanation.

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You have regularly taken the law into your own hands. How many

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convictions for violent offences do you have? Three or four. I am a

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working-class man from Luton. We should not be talking about

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previous convictions, we should be talking about the truth. What has

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got me on to this programme is not my past or history. My violent

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offence was 10 years ago. threat was not. Before I had three

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children and a family. I have done things I am not proud of. At the

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same time, I have been to jail. I have experienced and lived through

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Islamist ideology. I know that 800 prisoners are coming at a year

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radicalise ING our system. It is not being tackled. I would not be

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sitting here now. This is the EDL in which in London in the aftermath

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of the appalling murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. This is from the

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Guardian website. It explains some of the words on the screen. There

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are some flashing lights. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is

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fascist and violent. We have had enough. We support our troops. This

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is the end. Enough is enough. just add this up. You are a violent

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man with a violent record. You are a former member of the BNP. You

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have threatened Muslims with violence. I have not threatened

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anyone with violence. demonstrations are menacing and

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intimidating. They are full of men in balaclavas behaving like

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football hooligans on the rampage. You are expecting us to believe the

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EDL is no more menacing than the Girl Guides? Have we blent anything

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up or plan to bomb anything? -- blown anything. You do not think

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that is menacing or intimidating? There is an undercurrent of anger

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across the country. You need to harness and channel the anger. They

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want to show people, this is how we do it. In this country, whenever

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someone criticises anything to do with Islam, you are called a racist.

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You lose your job and be alienated and discriminated against. I have

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not use that word of youth. EDL wants to ban the building of any

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more mosques. -- youth. We should not be allowing Saudi Arabia to ban

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them in this country. You do not add to the problem. We do not know

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Again narks was a Lincoln demonstration, not English Defence

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League, that was another group. EDL members have been convicted of

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planning to burn down mosques. English Defence League doesn't have

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a membership. No, but they are self-styled EDL activists. Adam

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Rogers and John Parkins have been convicted of encouraging others or

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planning to do it themselves, to burn down mosques. That's a terrible

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thing is it not? It is an awful thing, and they were not my members.

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I always strongly speak out about it. I get threats every day to get

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my kids decapitated and no-one is arrested. I'm not arguing with that

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either, but what I'm saying is that it is not just that you don't want

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the building of any more mosques, we have clear evidence, they shout burn

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down mosques in demonstrations. Two of your members have been convicted

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of encouraging people to burn down mosques. We don't have members.All

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right, activists who say they are part of the EDL. People who follow

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Islam are planning to blow up this country every month but you don't

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blame that on the entire Muslim religion do you? With the English

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Defence League we want to carpet blame the whole organisation and its

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leadership for something that two morons have decided to do. You've

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denied any connection with the arson attack on the mosque after the

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Woolwich event. The truth is, we don't know, the you said it could be

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Muslims themselves, but we've got plenty of evidence of English

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Defence League supporters either threatening to plan or burn down

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mosques. Some have been convicted, so you would be forgiven for putting

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the EDL high up on a list of suspects wouldn't you in -- wouldn't

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you? ? No. There was 22 firebombings in Luton, mosques attacked, smash

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windows, council offices and yellow writing with EDL on every attack.

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After 12 months of hearing Islamic leaders saying these are Islamic

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attacks, who did they arrest? Muslims. You are claiming that the

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EDL is not a racist or fascist group. It is not.Plenty of footage

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each people giving Nazi salutes. You choose to demonstrate in areas that

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intimidate Muslims most. No we don't. You went to Woolwich.That

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was on the evening of that. We didn't, we went to Downing Street.

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Look at these people outside Downing Street. They are giving Nazi

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salutes. See again #245rks is manipulated photo. I don't know...

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We stuck the arm on his shoulder? ! Whenever anyone holds their hands up

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like that... Come on, that is a fascist that's in yew salute by any

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definition and they are at an EDL demonstration. We've got tonnes of

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pictures of people giving Nazi salutes at your events. There are

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serious problems within the Islamist community, and in our country that

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people aren't addressing. David Cameron said we need to drive the

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forces of Al-Qaeda out of Syria, but sorry David, you are not driving

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them out of Britain. In towns like Luton we have to queue up with

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people like these at the bank, our kids have to go to school with their

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kids. I'm not a Nazi. I hate Nazis and fascism. You need, I suggest, to

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speak to some of your supporters. One of my convictions you are

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talking about is for assaulting one of these men who was giving a Nazi

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salute. You claim to be the true voice of the working class in this

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matter but the fact is ordinary people don't want anything to do

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with you. The grieving parents of drummer Lee Rigby, the best of

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Britain, that young man, have pleaded with you to stop

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ex-employmenting his death. No they haven't. They didn't mention the

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English Defence League. They had you in mind. Now you know what they had

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in mind? So you now speak for Lee Rigby's family? They said keep calm

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and show your respect in a peaceful manner. That is not what the English

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Defence League did in Woolwich would. Two weeks after his death we

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were organising 60 peaceful walks for Lee. Out of those walks 57 were

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peaceful. The only time they weren't was when Muslims in Sheffield got

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the flowers for Lee Rigby and ripped them to pieces in front of everyone

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and it caused a confrontation. The leader of Unite against Fascism has

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said that British forces are justified for attack. You call

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yourself the English Defence League. We go. But the people really

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defending this country putting their lives on the line day in and day out

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don't want anything to do with you. The Help for Heroes charity doesn't

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even want your money. I know, that's political correctness gone mad in

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this country. I've got a friend... You are saying British squadies are

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politically correct? It is ordinary British squadies. It is political

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correctness gone mad in this country. When you hear the Rigby

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family for everyone to keep calm and show their respect, don't use it as

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an excuse to carry out attacks, and Help for Heroes don't want your

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money, doesn't it give you a moment's pause for thought? What

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gives me a moment's pause for thought is the fact it happened to

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Lee Rigby. We made a video in 2010 highlighting who his kill Kerr was.

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The fact that it is Father's Day without a dad. You have to say

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alleged there. We've allowed our troops to be spat at in Luton in

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front of their families and mothers and poppies to be burned and now our

:21:43.:21:47.

soldiers to be beheaded tonne streets of England. Our politicians

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are too weak. I'm not bound by political correctness so I will

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openly say how it is, which is why we ask for the following. People are

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following and it is spreading across the country. The English Defence

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League isn't going to go anywhere. You are so sure you speak for so

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many. Is I know that. Yet you won't stand for election, the English

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Defence League won't put up candidates. I won't, no.I suggest

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you are not interested in democratic politics. I don't want to be another

:22:18.:22:23.

man putting on a suit and lying and bound by political correctness.

:22:23.:22:28.

is the politics of the street you are interested in, the fascism and

:22:28.:22:32.

communism throughout the ages. Nobody you ask will tell you this

:22:32.:22:36.

country is going in the right direction. If we think it is more

:22:36.:22:40.

dangerous, 60% more Muslims are being arrested every year for

:22:40.:22:45.

terrorism. Have beautiful children and I'm terrified what it is going

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to be like for them. I'm not a coward and I want change. I will

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make sure that through peacefully protesting and highlighting these

:22:54.:22:59.

issues, I want to feel safe and that my children have a prosperous

:22:59.:23:04.

future. People in Luton haven't got that. I understand you are

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frightened of the Muslim threat. termified. I think many people are

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as frightened of it and of you and the English Defence League as you

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are of Muslims. What is David Cameron doing about it? Nothing.

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Robinson, thank you for being with us. It is Father's Day, dad.That

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was the English Defence League. Well, listening to that was Farooq

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Murad. He's the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, the

:23:30.:23:32.

leading Muslim organisation in the UK. He joins us from Leicester.

:23:32.:23:38.

Since the eshl the murder of drummer Lee Rigby, what has happened to

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Muslim and non-Muslim relations in this country I? We are very

:23:41.:23:46.

concerned that the rhetoric you've just heard from Tommy Robinson and

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the English Defence League day in and day out on our streets is trying

:23:51.:23:54.

to stir hatred in a divisive society. We've seen mosques being

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society. We've seen mosques being burnt. We've seen mosques and

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individuals being attacked, so I think that is really a moment where

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we need to reflect and think and we need to isolate and not give further

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oxygen to this kind of rhetoric of hatred, rhetoric based on fantasy

:24:15.:24:20.

rather than reality. OK. Since Islamist terrorism in this country

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now seems to be largely home-grown, are you and organisations like yours

:24:26.:24:31.

really doing enough to root it out, combat it in your communities?

:24:31.:24:38.

Indeed. We have been an organisation of 500 affiliates. Our message is

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loud and clear, day in and day out from all the pulpits, there is no

:24:45.:24:49.

justification or basis for extremist violence in this country or any

:24:50.:24:54.

decent society or in our faith or scripture or practice or history.

:24:54.:24:58.

Are you sure you know what all the Imams are telling the people in the

:24:58.:25:01.

mosques? Are you sure you know the message that is being spread in all

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of the mosques? Indeed. The Imams, the extremists that we have heard in

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the media, on BBC studios and other studios, they are the extreme

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tooipss who, there is no mosques available for them. They do not find

:25:19.:25:23.

any pulpits. They are ex-included from the mosques and they were given

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their oxygen from the media. This is our main complaint, that those

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extremists who do not find places in our mosques, in our Imams who

:25:34.:25:39.

counter them, they end up on the front pages of our tabloid and other

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newspapers. All right. But isn't it fair to say that one of the reasons

:25:45.:25:50.

why Islamist extremism thrives in corners of this country is because

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too many British Muslims live in closed all-Muslim communities? Don't

:25:55.:26:01.

we need more integration? I think we need to really... There is a problem

:26:01.:26:06.

definitely. One attack is too many from our perspective or anyone's

:26:06.:26:14.

perspective, and therefore we must investigate, we must look and find

:26:14.:26:17.

evidence-based strategies how to counter it. I've heard that language

:26:17.:26:22.

is an issue, that we are not integrating, but we've found most of

:26:22.:26:26.

these attackers spoke perfectly good English. We've talked about faith

:26:26.:26:30.

schools but we are hearing it is not faith schools but failed schools

:26:30.:26:35.

that are causing the problem. Similarly sometimes conservatism,

:26:35.:26:38.

traditional practice of Islam confused with extremism. What we

:26:38.:26:42.

need to understand is extremism breeds and develops in the margins

:26:42.:26:46.

and gaps of society. The Muslim Council of Britain has always argued

:26:46.:26:51.

we must engage in civic society, in political systems and processes of

:26:51.:26:55.

this country, and we must draw people in. OK. Can I finally - sorry

:26:55.:26:59.

to interrupt. Can I get your quick reaction to the attacks of people in

:26:59.:27:04.

a Birmingham mosque, which we read about this morning? It doesn't seem

:27:04.:27:09.

in anyway to involve the EDL, but a Somali with a machete. What's your

:27:09.:27:12.

reaction to what happened inside this mosque? Four people, including

:27:12.:27:19.

a policeman, now in hospital. too early to comment. It seems like

:27:19.:27:22.

another deranged person who seemed to have an internal conflict of some

:27:22.:27:27.

sort. I read the news on the BBC be. I don't have the full details yet,

:27:27.:27:30.

but it seems like some kind of but it seems like some kind of

:27:30.:27:38.

domestic issue or local issue. Some individuals, a fight. We have crime,

:27:38.:27:42.

knife attacks et cetera on the streets of Britain day in and day

:27:42.:27:46.

out in many towns and cities. It is too early to jump to conclusions but

:27:46.:27:51.

we must look into it. Mr Farooq Murad, there are for joining us from

:27:51.:27:55.

Leicester Thank you. Now, the Government has been pretty

:27:55.:27:58.

busy when it comes to welfare, introducing the benefit cap,

:27:58.:28:00.

imposing tougher conditions on housing and incapacity benefits and

:28:00.:28:03.

limiting the amount benefits rise to below inflation. But the really big

:28:03.:28:06.

one - universal credit - is still to come, with launch planned for

:28:06.:28:09.

October. This reform, the Government hope, is the real welfare game

:28:09.:28:13.

changer, but is it on track, and will it work? Gyles Dilnot has been

:28:13.:28:23.
:28:23.:28:27.

finding out. In the most ambitious change to welfare for 60 years, the

:28:27.:28:32.

Government is attempting something new. To cover the vast complexity of

:28:32.:28:36.

the lives and needs of those on benefits, both in and out of work,

:28:36.:28:41.

with a simple, more flexible, cheaper to administer system which,

:28:41.:28:45.

as they put it, makes work pay. The Government are taking income

:28:45.:28:51.

support, income-based job-seeker's allowance, income-related Employment

:28:51.:28:54.

and Support Allowance, housing benefit, child tax credits and

:28:54.:28:58.

working tax credits and rolling them all into one - universal credit. It

:28:58.:29:04.

gets paid monthly, just so it mimics salaried work. And you get less than

:29:04.:29:08.

what you earn when you are in work. Politically most people liked the

:29:08.:29:14.

idea. It is doing it so it really works where the debate starts.

:29:14.:29:18.

Universal credit in some form rolls out nationally in October. Four

:29:18.:29:22.

areas are piloting the change, covering an estimated 7,000

:29:22.:29:27.

claimants, but they are the least complicated cases. Single,

:29:27.:29:30.

childless, new job-seeker's allowance claimants who claim no

:29:30.:29:38.

other benefits. This is what modern private sector IT looks like, and IT

:29:38.:29:48.
:29:48.:30:03.

The Department for work and pensions is aiming for 80% of

:30:03.:30:13.
:30:13.:30:14.

claims to be online. If someone works, even for a short amount of

:30:14.:30:18.

time, it is worth their while and they remain in the system.

:30:18.:30:24.

government deliver IT change on this scale? I believe they can. The

:30:24.:30:29.

benefit system is incredibly complicated. The major projects

:30:29.:30:33.

Authority looked at universal credit in September of last year.

:30:33.:30:40.

Back then, it was graded amber/ red. It means successful delivery of the

:30:40.:30:46.

project is in doubt. Urgent action is needed. In May, the Government

:30:46.:30:50.

responded. Significant progress has been made in the delivery of

:30:50.:30:54.

universal credit. The pathfinder was successfully launched and we

:30:54.:30:57.

are on course to stop the progressive national roll-out of

:30:57.:31:03.

universal credit in October. -- to start. One MP is Warwick was that

:31:03.:31:07.

he is about to publish a book on the chequered history of a large

:31:07.:31:13.

government projects. -- is worried. The idea that the way to get this

:31:13.:31:17.

right is to say everything is going fine and there are no problems, it

:31:17.:31:25.

is all on time and on Churchill. That is not something I believe. --

:31:25.:31:28.

on schedules. One theme runs through the tortuous history of bad

:31:28.:31:33.

software and that is the failure to confront reality. That is likely to

:31:33.:31:38.

be the case at the moment. That would be catastrophic for many

:31:38.:31:42.

currently on benefits. What do someone who cannot afford to feed

:31:42.:31:52.
:31:52.:31:54.

their children look and sound like? I had never thought I would be in

:31:54.:31:59.

this predicament but I am. There are others out there who are in

:31:59.:32:04.

this situation but never dreamed of being in it. The thing is, how do

:32:04.:32:09.

you get out of it? That is what I am struggling with. I do not want

:32:09.:32:17.

to be on benefits. I want to work. The situation I am in now stops me.

:32:17.:32:21.

Exactly the sort of person universal credit are designed to

:32:21.:32:25.

help. Why does she not think being paid a lump sum monthly will work

:32:25.:32:31.

for people like her? What do they have to fall back on? They do not

:32:31.:32:36.

have an overdraft. I did have an overdraft and I lived off the

:32:36.:32:41.

overdraft. It has got so bad that they cannot afford to pay it back.

:32:41.:32:46.

You get this money. What happens if, for some reason or another, you

:32:46.:32:51.

have to spend more than the budgeted for a week or so? People

:32:51.:32:57.

will apply crisis loans. It will get worse. The Government insists

:32:57.:33:01.

it will ensure no one falls through the cracks. Despite backing some of

:33:01.:33:06.

the aims of universal credit, food banks are preparing to help more

:33:06.:33:13.

people when changes come. Last year, in 2012, we looked after 153,000

:33:13.:33:17.

people whose primary reason for needing the three days of food we

:33:17.:33:22.

give them in the food bank was that there was a problem, a mistake, a

:33:22.:33:28.

change or to lay in benefit payments. We are dealing with a

:33:28.:33:32.

significant change. We anticipate large numbers of extra people

:33:32.:33:38.

coming to the banks as a consequence. That worries us. --

:33:38.:33:42.

food banks. The Government says it will be flexible with people who

:33:42.:33:47.

might struggle to manage their money. Universal credit will roll

:33:47.:33:52.

out of right, not early. It has not yet convinced everyone this

:33:52.:33:57.

flagship policy is under control. Now, we would have liked to put

:33:58.:33:59.

those concerns about the implementation and implications of

:34:00.:34:02.

universal credit to a government minister but our invitation to

:34:02.:34:07.

someone - anyone - responsible for the policy was rejected. We will

:34:07.:34:16.

keep on asking. We are not easily embarrassed by rebuttals, and we

:34:16.:34:20.

will return to the subject in the weeks and months ahead. Now, it is

:34:20.:34:23.

G8 time again, and it is back in the United Kingdom, in Northern

:34:23.:34:25.

Ireland in fact, where the authorities are bracing themselves

:34:25.:34:28.

for aggro. This weekend, world leaders a Cabinet this luxurious

:34:28.:34:36.

golf resort in County Fermanagh for the latest G8 summit. On the agenda

:34:36.:34:41.

are trade, tax and transparency. There will also be discussions on

:34:41.:34:45.

Syria and internet spying. Prime ministers and presidents were not

:34:45.:34:49.

be the only ones descending on this peaceful part of Northern Ireland

:34:49.:34:54.

because protesters plan to make themselves heard as well. Meetings

:34:54.:34:57.

like the G8 and G20 have been accompanied by protests and

:34:57.:35:02.

violence for a number of years. Already this week, police raided a

:35:02.:35:06.

squat used by stock-take protesters in Central London. Police in

:35:06.:35:15.

Northern Ireland up on alert. Anarchist groups are protesting

:35:15.:35:19.

against capitalism itself. So, to debate all that, Owen Jones and

:35:19.:35:29.
:35:29.:35:31.

Charlie Wolf go head to head on the I assume you stand shoulder to

:35:31.:35:35.

shoulder with the protesters. What do you want to achieve? Some of the

:35:35.:35:39.

main issues which are angering people are the fact we have 22,000

:35:39.:35:44.

children dying every single day of hunger, poverty. That is seven

:35:44.:35:50.

times bigger than 9/11 every day. More people are dying of hunger can

:35:50.:35:54.

AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria combined. We have 14 trillion

:35:54.:35:59.

dollars of tax which has been stashed away, hidden from the

:35:59.:36:02.

taxman, at a time when third World countries are losing three times

:36:02.:36:05.

more through tax avoidance than they are getting through eight.

:36:05.:36:11.

Then the issues of climate change, the human rights record of Russia.

:36:11.:36:18.

The key point is, what protesters are trying to do, in the way that

:36:18.:36:22.

UK has put tax avoidance on the agenda, it is to hold leaders to

:36:22.:36:27.

account and make sure we have a national and global debate. We are

:36:27.:36:32.

holding to recount the eight most importing countries in the world. -

:36:32.:36:38.

- holding to account. The problem with world hunger is generally

:36:38.:36:42.

local governments. You can continue to throw money at the problem.

:36:42.:36:48.

There is more than enough food in the world. I agree with you. In

:36:49.:36:53.

Zimbabwe, it used to be Africa's breadbasket. It is not any more.

:36:53.:36:59.

this an issue for the G8? I do have a problem with the protesters. You

:36:59.:37:03.

can see by the way they handle themselves was a bit speaks volumes.

:37:03.:37:10.

I do not like the word capitalism. I prefer the word, free market.

:37:11.:37:16.

Capitalism was first used by William Thackeray make peace.

:37:16.:37:19.

pressed taxpayers are having to bail out the banks. That is not the

:37:19.:37:24.

fault of the people. The whole point about free markets is people

:37:24.:37:31.

making free decisions. Free markets are a morally correct institution.

:37:32.:37:35.

This is something that Margaret Thatcher talked about many years

:37:35.:37:40.

ago. Let me put this to you Foster in terms of free-market capitalism,

:37:40.:37:50.
:37:50.:37:51.

in 2008, when the linchpin of the capitalist system came crashing

:37:51.:37:56.

down. The state came to the rescue. That is socialism - socialism for

:37:56.:38:00.

the rich and capitalism for everyone else. A lot of people on

:38:00.:38:08.

the right had agreed to let them fail. There are places for the

:38:08.:38:11.

state. I do not disagree. One needs to look at how we got into the mess

:38:11.:38:15.

in the first place was a free markets were not allowed to be free.

:38:15.:38:20.

The whole genesis of the problem was Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

:38:20.:38:26.

Capitalism is in crisis. Why is there left so weak? Why are they

:38:26.:38:32.

making no advances democratically? The number of protesters is

:38:32.:38:37.

diminishing. It is a good point. You need anger at how things I hope

:38:37.:38:44.

at how things can be. There is anger out there. The average worker

:38:44.:38:49.

is going through the bigger squeeze in pay packets since records began.

:38:49.:38:56.

What is lacking is hope. That is the need for a coherent alternative.

:38:56.:39:01.

That will give people hope. Ordinary folk, living standards

:39:01.:39:08.

being squeezed. They are paying a shed load of tax, helping to bail

:39:08.:39:12.

out the banks. Shouldn't they be angry that companies like Google

:39:12.:39:20.

and Amazon pay next to nothing? Governments right laws. They act to

:39:20.:39:25.

the laws. They are paying a legal tax. They had aggressive lawyers

:39:25.:39:31.

and accountants. Are they doing anything illegal? Of course not.

:39:31.:39:37.

That makes it worse. Change the tax laws. It disturbs me when I listen

:39:37.:39:41.

to David Cameron going on about the Irish and their corporate tax laws.

:39:41.:39:46.

If he does not like it, blow up our tax rates. Do you think socialism

:39:46.:39:56.
:39:56.:39:58.

would ever come up in a search engine? -- lower at tax rates. They

:39:58.:40:03.

are still talking but not as bad as last week. It is coming up to

:40:03.:40:06.

11:40am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

:40:06.:40:09.

minutes: I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.

:40:09.:40:19.
:40:19.:40:23.

Until then, the Sunday Politics Hello. Welcome from us, where this

:40:23.:40:28.

week we will be looking at London's long-term needs and weathered the

:40:28.:40:34.

mayor has the 2020 Vision to meet them. Time to say hello to Jeremy

:40:34.:40:40.

Corbyn and Mary MacLeod. Let's have a word first about the fact it

:40:40.:40:45.

emerged this week that Thames Water has paid no corporation tax in the

:40:45.:40:51.

last financial year, despite making �145 million in pre- tax profit. It

:40:51.:40:56.

said it delayed payments due to investments in its infrastructure

:40:56.:41:00.

amounting to �1 billion a year. They also received a �5 million

:41:00.:41:06.

rebate from the Treasury in one year. They made �549 million profit

:41:06.:41:14.

on a turnover of �1.8 billion. Grapple with those figures.

:41:14.:41:20.

massive profit. They have a real cheek in avoiding corporation tax

:41:20.:41:24.

and then asking us all to pay for the Thames tunnel to be built. I

:41:24.:41:28.

think it is time that we thought about bringing water back into

:41:28.:41:33.

public ownership so we can benefit from these vast profits. Not being

:41:33.:41:39.

siphoned off to tax havens. We have to be careful. It is not just a

:41:39.:41:43.

major headline on something they are doing which is illegal. It is

:41:44.:41:49.

not about evading tax. They have had discussions with HMRC and said,

:41:49.:41:52.

how can we do something which means we will pay this tax but it will be

:41:52.:41:57.

delayed so we can use some of that money to get capital investment in

:41:57.:42:03.

some of our projects? There are tough times economically. We want

:42:03.:42:07.

to be able to invest in some of these capital projects. As long as

:42:07.:42:11.

it has been discussed and agreed with the Treasury, and something

:42:11.:42:14.

which is a project which is happening and developing and London

:42:14.:42:20.

needs, I think it is a fair thing to do. I have had a �140 million

:42:20.:42:24.

investment in sewage works alongside Twickenham rugby stadium.

:42:24.:42:33.

Under needs those things. How else will they be paid for? -- London

:42:33.:42:37.

needs. They need to be paid for, obviously. We're giving them the

:42:37.:42:42.

subsidy and allowing them to continue to make large profits. I

:42:42.:42:46.

think we need a bided discussion about water and sewage as well

:42:46.:42:51.

because of the amount of paving over land, building places, means

:42:51.:43:00.

there is a greater fled -- fled search. I'm not sure giving a

:43:00.:43:05.

private company a monopoly of London's water is the way forward.

:43:05.:43:11.

They have big profits. They have a big PR problem down the track as

:43:11.:43:17.

well. Plans for the super Suker could lead to �25 on the average

:43:17.:43:25.

person's or to bail. Detailed plans for that have still to come out. --

:43:25.:43:29.

water bill. We need to work very closely with Thames Water to

:43:29.:43:34.

minimise the cost for Londoners. They are paying a lot already full

:43:34.:43:38.

water and sewage. Some of those investment projects are things that,

:43:38.:43:43.

just because they have been around for so long, from the Victorian era

:43:43.:43:48.

and before, absolutely it needs investment. Why should Londoners

:43:48.:43:53.

pay for every last penny? We asked Thames Water and they make this

:43:53.:44:03.
:44:03.:44:08.

Let's move on. You could never accuse the Mayor of London of

:44:08.:44:12.

underselling anything. This week he said he could create a period of

:44:12.:44:16.

joy and plenty for the city to compare with the glories of ancient

:44:16.:44:23.

Rome and ninth-century Baghdad. The Treasury -- only if the Treasury

:44:23.:44:28.

was not standing in the way. The spending round is expected to

:44:28.:44:38.
:44:38.:44:47.

impose hard financial choices on made promotional video. Today our

:44:47.:44:52.

number one challenge is the amazing boom in the number of Londoners. We

:44:52.:44:56.

are going to hit ten million people by 2030. Rather than announcing new

:44:56.:45:00.

ideas, the document is a list of almost every transport and

:45:00.:45:03.

infrastructure project that's currently being mooted by almost

:45:03.:45:07.

anyone. It includes those with no money nor Government approval, like

:45:07.:45:16.

Crossrail two. It has involved some not official mayoral policy like the

:45:16.:45:22.

airport in the Thames estuary. But no statement of how our booming

:45:22.:45:26.

population will need additional police and Fire Services, both of

:45:26.:45:31.

which are currently being cut at City Hall. I do think that a world

:45:31.:45:35.

city like London needs a world class fire and emergency service and world

:45:35.:45:40.

class policing services. Cutting 10% of our fire stations and 10% of our

:45:40.:45:44.

fire engines at the same time as all this growth is going on is not

:45:44.:45:47.

really in anyone's interest. It is certainly not in the interests of

:45:47.:45:54.

safety. As I said, for a trivial 7p a week cut in council tax it is no

:45:54.:45:59.

price not worth paying. He has to go begging to the Treasury pretty much

:45:59.:46:04.

every year to get his money. That is coming up now with the Spending

:46:04.:46:09.

Review week after next, so this is Boris's pitch. The difficulty for

:46:09.:46:14.

the Mayor is this. The bill for this document comes in at billions of

:46:14.:46:18.

pounds. If the Government don't want to pay for it, it could mean this

:46:18.:46:26.

vision will never become a reality. What the Mayor might be pitching

:46:26.:46:30.

this grand ambitions to the Treasury, behind the scenes

:46:30.:46:34.

Transport for London are expecting they fully expect a cut in

:46:34.:46:38.

Government funding. It is just a question of how much. So does the

:46:38.:46:42.

Mayor expect the contents of this document to become a reality? Some

:46:42.:46:46.

of it is already happening, like the development work at King's Cross,

:46:46.:46:50.

and Google are about to build their one million square foot UK base

:46:50.:46:54.

right here. In the document there is talk about joining cringes cross

:46:54.:47:00.

with St Pancras to make a mega , to serve the new lines of high speak

:47:00.:47:04.

two and Crossrail two. But the problem is that for Crossrail two

:47:04.:47:09.

there is absolutely no money. The Mayor's key argument is that money

:47:09.:47:14.

invested in London is also good for the rest of the UK. The good example

:47:14.:47:18.

would be for the building behind bus, where the supply chain involves

:47:18.:47:21.

lots of businesses not in London but in other parts of the country. Those

:47:21.:47:26.

businesses support jobs and they involve businesses making concrete

:47:26.:47:30.

and refurbishing bits of old cast iron and creating new bits of ands

:47:30.:47:35.

iron and other things too. There is a fine-grained wider than London

:47:35.:47:40.

picture to London construction. is London really a unique case? Not

:47:40.:47:44.

according to the developers here. The same will be true in investment

:47:44.:47:48.

in other parts of the country too. There is a wider picture than just

:47:48.:47:51.

the location where the development happens. That's true of our

:47:51.:47:54.

developments in Manchester and Birmingham as well. And if the

:47:54.:47:58.

Government do take the view there are bigger priorities for the the UK

:47:58.:48:02.

than funding the Mayor's vision document, the tough question for

:48:02.:48:06.

Boris Johnson is this. If he really thinks London's future depends on

:48:06.:48:11.

the contents of his vision, will he take the political hit for raising

:48:11.:48:16.

taxes and backing up fares even more rather than just taking the glory

:48:17.:48:21.

for building lots of shiny new things? We asked the Mayor to join

:48:21.:48:25.

us. He wasn't able to make it but his Chief of Staff is here. Welcome

:48:25.:48:30.

to you. Hi.Described this week as widely seen as the power behind the

:48:31.:48:36.

throne. I don't think so.Is it true? Of course it is not Frew.

:48:36.:48:42.

Really? No. The Mayor runs City Hall. He clearly runs City Hall.

:48:42.:48:46.

This is a good example of the Mayor's words, the Mayor's document.

:48:46.:48:50.

That is clearly part of 2020. He is very much in control. So it is not

:48:50.:48:57.

the case that you supply the facts and the script and he adds that

:48:57.:49:01.

unique rhetorical flourish? course there's lots of people in

:49:01.:49:06.

City Hall providing information, lots of special specialist advisers,

:49:06.:49:10.

people having to input information into him but it is under his

:49:10.:49:14.

direction and against the targets and directions that he has set.

:49:14.:49:18.

Certainly timely in letting Londoners know that he is making the

:49:18.:49:21.

case to Government for more investment. How are these

:49:21.:49:25.

negotiations going ahead of this Spending Review? Give us an idea of

:49:25.:49:29.

what you think the cuts are going be? It is accepted there are going

:49:29.:49:34.

to be cuts. What percentage do we think? I can't answer that one.

:49:34.:49:38.

Although negotiations are going on they are still at a pretty tense

:49:38.:49:43.

stage in the negotiating process. They are putting their cases on the

:49:43.:49:48.

table. Normally, as you know, spending departments will give you

:49:48.:49:53.

an idea to plan. What idea are they giving you? I can't answer that one.

:49:53.:49:58.

It is not the moment which we can declare our hand on this. The Mayor

:49:58.:50:03.

is... I can tell thaw the Mayor is in regular contact with the

:50:03.:50:07.

Treasury. He is meeting the Secretary of State and the

:50:07.:50:10.

Chancellor. This is all ongoing work. Has he got a meeting with the

:50:10.:50:13.

Chancellor between now and then? will certainly have another meeting

:50:13.:50:18.

with him, yes. Some people say that they are not fans of each other and

:50:18.:50:22.

they could be rivals one day for the Conservative leadership. On that

:50:22.:50:25.

point, could it be said that Boris Johnson could be a liability to

:50:25.:50:28.

London, in the sense that if the Chancellor's not going to look

:50:28.:50:32.

fondly on him at the moment, and remember London has had a good

:50:32.:50:34.

settlement over the last couple of years, London could suffer there,

:50:34.:50:40.

because it is time for London to bear a bit of the burden? I'm sorry

:50:40.:50:47.

the disappoint everybody in the press. The reality is that Boris

:50:47.:50:50.

Johnson and George Osborne get on well. The Treasury fully recognises

:50:50.:50:52.

the importance of London. They've always recognised the importance of

:50:52.:50:57.

London to the UK economy. And that is why London has had the support,

:50:57.:51:00.

because if it is good for London it is generally good for the whole of

:51:00.:51:05.

the UK. We are not a city state. We are part of the UK. But they know

:51:05.:51:09.

that too don't they? And it was the case in the run-up to the Olympics,

:51:09.:51:13.

for understandable reasons, no-one wanted the Games to be a disaster,

:51:13.:51:17.

there had to be more funding in London and London was cushioned a

:51:17.:51:23.

little bit. Surely, as we know, as we do, there is ten billion pnds to

:51:23.:51:29.

find here that London will bear some of the heaviest cuts here? I'm sure

:51:29.:51:34.

London will bear some costs, they are bound to, but the Mayor's case

:51:34.:51:38.

isn't about revenue expenditure. He recognises that that is going to be

:51:38.:51:42.

reduced. Are it is about investment. And the importance of investment.

:51:42.:51:46.

Not just to London but the whole of the UK economy. We've got a city

:51:46.:51:52.

that's growing. We are eight. Four million. We are going to be nine

:51:52.:51:57.

million early in 2020, ten million in 2030. We've got to have thousands

:51:57.:52:04.

of homes, houses and jobs. Is it odd, is there a sense that a vision,

:52:04.:52:08.

it is quite unusual coming from a Mayor five years in. Wouldn't we

:52:08.:52:11.

have been better off having something like this a few years ago,

:52:11.:52:16.

because then you can start making the arguments and putting

:52:16.:52:18.

preparations in for your infrastructure projects, but that

:52:18.:52:23.

didn't happen? The Mayor's first four years were about dealing with

:52:23.:52:27.

other issues. But aren't we paying a price for that? No, we are not

:52:27.:52:32.

paying a price for, that because these population numbers are much

:52:32.:52:37.

higher than originally envies and. We only recently had the results of

:52:37.:52:42.

the census. I can't tell you how many times I've said that London was

:52:42.:52:47.

going to grow by the size of Leeds by 2020. And we have in the London

:52:48.:52:53.

Plan, the Mayor's document which he published soon after he took power

:52:53.:52:58.

in 2008. It started to show the kind of projections we've got today. It

:52:58.:53:04.

was revised again and the London plan already said we need 32,000

:53:04.:53:07.

units of housing a year. This document is now upping it even

:53:07.:53:13.

further. We were heading more towards 40-40,000. Great, you led us

:53:14.:53:20.

to that. Let us take housing. 32-40,000 needed a year and we know

:53:20.:53:25.

that in the last year your administration has started 14,000.

:53:25.:53:32.

In one year. So there's a complete - in two years actually. Are 14,000

:53:32.:53:36.

and 8,000 this year. That is not fast enough, is it? You know you

:53:36.:53:41.

won't be getting any more money. Excuse me for saying so but this is

:53:41.:53:47.

the argument used against the Mayor two in 2008. Everyone was saying you

:53:47.:53:51.

will not build 50,000 units of new housing accommodation using your

:53:51.:54:00.

funds. He did it. The crucial thing about that was he got that through a

:54:00.:54:05.

national affordability programme funded by Labour. The money under

:54:05.:54:09.

the new Government is much reduced. You can't say with any confidence

:54:09.:54:13.

you are going to repeat that number of housing. You are doing

:54:13.:54:18.

completions. Let me do starts. He started 10,000 last year. 10,000

:54:18.:54:21.

starts which got off the ground. We've got no doubts he would have

:54:22.:54:26.

achieved that 50,000. But the trouble is having achieved that

:54:26.:54:30.

50,000 it won't be enough. We need more. It is not just social housing

:54:30.:54:33.

that we are concerned about but housing across the board. The

:54:33.:54:40.

Mayor's made that clear. Jeremy Corbyn, let me bring you in here. No

:54:40.:54:44.

Government would have that much money to give to London at this

:54:44.:54:47.

crucial stage when we know it has big needs over the next five or six

:54:48.:54:54.

years. I wish this document had less of Boris's hyperly in it and more

:54:54.:55:01.

about the reality of people 's lives in London, the benefit cap. The

:55:01.:55:04.

unrented private rented sector and the appalling conditions that many

:55:04.:55:08.

people live in, and the labour market problems of the future as

:55:08.:55:12.

people are exported out of London. I want to see more council housing. I

:55:12.:55:17.

want to see a commitment from the Mayor that he will use his influence

:55:17.:55:22.

on the regulation of the Private rented sector and serious thought to

:55:22.:55:26.

the quality of jobs that are there in the future. On the public

:55:26.:55:30.

transport stuff, some of it is welcome and some of it I absolutely

:55:30.:55:34.

agree with. We need much better public transport in London to cope

:55:34.:55:38.

with the larger numbers of people. But we also need commitment about

:55:38.:55:42.

fares and fare levels for the future. Mary MacLeod, what should he

:55:42.:55:50.

be given? What do you want the Chancellor to do here? A 10% cut in

:55:50.:55:57.

Transport for London's budget is not sensible. I do think London is a

:55:57.:56:01.

city I was born in. To me it is the greatest city on earth. And I've

:56:01.:56:06.

worked here my whole working life. I do think it is the, and I agree with

:56:06.:56:11.

Eddie when he talks about it being if it benefits London it benefits

:56:11.:56:14.

the rest of the country, because so many people travel into London to

:56:14.:56:19.

work. It's the gateway to this country. My constituency in the west

:56:19.:56:22.

being the gateway to London. I like this vision, because it really does

:56:22.:56:26.

say something about what we expect of London in the future, what we can

:56:26.:56:31.

believe in and hope for in this city. Too often we hear about the

:56:31.:56:35.

issues and absolutely boar is will address some of the -- Boris will

:56:35.:56:40.

address some of the issues. But it is really important for us to say,

:56:40.:56:44.

let's think long term and see what investment is required and fight for

:56:44.:56:48.

it. What is there on the stocks over the next few years to keep that pace

:56:48.:56:52.

of investment? Well, there are issues. Whether you talk about

:56:52.:56:56.

housing, I need schools in my patch, because with a population increasing

:56:56.:57:00.

you need the services to support them. And I desperately need more

:57:00.:57:04.

schools. We are covering that in the short term with classes and

:57:04.:57:08.

supporting them that way. We do housing. I have a lot of house

:57:08.:57:12.

building going on, so I agree we will get to the levels that Boris

:57:12.:57:17.

has said he will do on house hog. But we need more than that and we

:57:17.:57:24.

need the keep the focus on it. Also the plan involved the skills that

:57:24.:57:28.

are required, how we get businesses to invest. You mentioned earlier,

:57:28.:57:32.

the Mayor has aligned himself with the recommendations of a panel of

:57:32.:57:37.

experts. He would allow or would want local authorities to be able to

:57:37.:57:43.

build more housing and borrowing restrictions to be lifted. I agree

:57:43.:57:47.

with him on that. That is welcome. I hope the Government supports it. But

:57:47.:57:51.

the direction of travel of the Government is the opposite of trying

:57:51.:57:54.

to promote the sale of council properties and at the same time

:57:54.:58:00.

encourage the development of owner cock power station. Owner occupation

:58:00.:58:03.

is totally unaffordable for the vast majority of Londoners because of

:58:03.:58:07.

this completely skewed housing market we have, because of, how

:58:07.:58:12.

shall we put it, funny money coming into London to buy up things and

:58:12.:58:16.

that cascades through the market. You said there were other things

:58:16.:58:22.

preoccupying his first term, but in terms of vision, how much can be

:58:22.:58:26.

delivered in a short space of time, in the time he has left in the

:58:26.:58:31.

mayoralty? I think this document is not just about this mayoralty but

:58:31.:58:37.

about the future of London. I would suggest and Jeremy can be critical

:58:37.:58:41.

of it, but by suggest whether you are a Labour or a Conservative

:58:41.:58:47.

Mayor, you can twist this document one way or the other. Inevitably do

:58:47.:58:53.

all Mayors become the same? It is about London's growth. London is

:58:53.:58:57.

growing. It represents 23% of the country's GDP. If you look at the

:58:57.:59:01.

South East around London it is another 15%. Half the country's

:59:02.:59:05.

economy is driven from here. If we want to keep that going, you've got

:59:05.:59:09.

to put the money into London to keep that transport going, keep the

:59:09.:59:13.

housing going and keep the system going. Were you surprised when you

:59:13.:59:16.

heard that the Mayor during this difficult time was going to be able

:59:16.:59:22.

to find the time to write a book next year? Did you think damn it,

:59:22.:59:28.

more work for you? No, and it will be a great book. Churchill wrote

:59:28.:59:31.

soldier of his best works while fighting the Second World War.

:59:31.:59:35.

Remind me, what happened to him in the subsequent election? Well...

:59:35.:59:42.

That was in 1944, but, he still won the war. Maybe bore sis proving that

:59:42.:59:46.

men can multitask. The voters decided. He still won the woor and

:59:46.:59:51.

that is the point. Will you put in for a pay increase? We don't have

:59:51.:59:55.

pay in whiches at City Hall. We are good local government officials.

:59:55.:00:05.
:00:05.:00:18.

that note the miserly Sir Edward West is best when it comes to life

:00:18.:00:23.

expectancy in the capital. Richmond has the lowest rates of early death

:00:23.:00:29.

- second best in England. East London fared less well. Tower

:00:29.:00:35.

Hamlets was the 7th worst in the nation. There was an amnesty for

:00:35.:00:40.

residence illegally sub-letting council houses. The leader of

:00:40.:00:43.

Kingston Borough Council has resigned after he was arrested for

:00:43.:00:49.

possessing indecent images of children. He has been bailed until

:00:49.:00:53.

August. MPs have criticised Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe over his

:00:53.:00:58.

handling of the plebgate affair. The alleged altercation between

:00:58.:01:03.

Andrew Mitchell and the police in Downing Street. He was accused of

:01:03.:01:06.

failing to keep a record of conversations with the press and

:01:06.:01:11.

failing to make any significant progress in the case. The

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:21.

investigation has cost 144 plasm pounds to date. -- �144,000. You

:01:21.:01:27.

are halfway between Richmond and East London. Do you think there is

:01:27.:01:33.

any sign of the health inequalities narrowing? Everything points in the

:01:33.:01:38.

other direction. They're getting worse. Because of growing poverty

:01:38.:01:43.

and difficulties over housing and environmental conditions many of

:01:43.:01:49.

our children are being Port Appin. In my area, for example, which is

:01:49.:01:54.

presented as being quite well off, the outcomes are very poor indeed.

:01:54.:01:58.

On top of that there are proposals to close down large numbers of

:01:58.:02:03.

hospital beds in Lewisham in the South quite Ealing in the West and,

:02:03.:02:07.

in my own case, closing down a lot of beds and making redundancies in

:02:07.:02:13.

my local hospital. It is very difficult to close this gap -

:02:13.:02:19.

albeit you represent a relatively affluent part of West London.

:02:19.:02:25.

have my issues in terms of TB, diabetes, childhood obesity. Issues

:02:25.:02:32.

I am trying to buy back on. It is a role for us as MPs, we feel we are

:02:32.:02:37.

not getting the health care service our residents need and we should be

:02:37.:02:43.

fighting for it. That is something we do. We do not want the postcode

:02:43.:02:48.

lottery. The reality on health is, there certainly is a real issue in

:02:48.:02:54.

terms of poverty and smoking, what you are eating. All this affects

:02:54.:03:00.

your health. We need to make sure we're tackling some of that. A 45

:03:01.:03:04.

second conversation from Andrew Mitchell and nine months later, at

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:21.

In a moment, we'll look ahead to the big stories that will dominate

:03:21.:03:30.

politics next week with our political panel. Now for the news.

:03:30.:03:34.

Good afternoon. David Cameron will hold talks in London today with

:03:34.:03:39.

Vladimir Putin. The conflict in Syria is expected to dominate

:03:40.:03:47.

discussions. The Russians have said the American claims of chemical

:03:47.:03:53.

weapons used are fabricated. Here is a political correspondent.

:03:53.:03:57.

Northern Ireland is getting ready. The G8 summit starts tomorrow.

:03:57.:04:03.

World leaders start arriving later today. Syria is likely to be the

:04:03.:04:07.

big talking point. Russia strongly opposes the idea of arming the

:04:07.:04:12.

opposition, which is exactly what the United States, France and the

:04:12.:04:17.

UK are now considering. The Prime Minister is doing his best to find

:04:17.:04:21.

common ground with President Putin, ahead of their talks in Downing

:04:21.:04:25.

Street this afternoon. The option we all want is an international

:04:25.:04:29.

peace conference and an international agreement for a

:04:29.:04:32.

transitional government in Syria, that the Syrian people can have

:04:32.:04:36.

confidence in, and then elections and a new Syrian government. The

:04:36.:04:41.

disagreement is how we get there. David Cameron says he has not

:04:41.:04:45.

decided yet whether to armed Zairean rebels. His deputy says he

:04:45.:04:52.

has not decided either. -- Syrian rebels. We have taken no decision

:04:52.:04:56.

to provide lethal persistence. We do not think it is the right thing,

:04:57.:05:03.

otherwise we would have decided to do it. We are providing significant

:05:03.:05:07.

amounts of non- lethal assistance. The question now is whether David

:05:07.:05:11.

Cameron could secure the support of a majority of MPs to send arms if

:05:11.:05:19.

he concludes it is worthwhile. A man has been arrested after four

:05:19.:05:24.

people, including a police officer, were stabbed in a mosque in

:05:24.:05:30.

Birmingham late last night. What more can you tell us? This incident

:05:30.:05:35.

happened about 11pm yesterday. Local people are saying there was a

:05:35.:05:41.

dispute in the mosque behind me between two people. One man was

:05:41.:05:45.

brandishing a knife. Two others went in to try to break up the

:05:45.:05:52.

altercation and, as a result, three people ended up being stabbed. One

:05:52.:05:57.

of the police officers was also stabbed. Important to stress that

:05:57.:06:01.

all those injured are in hospital but their injuries and not said to

:06:01.:06:07.

be life threatening. A 32-year-old man, described of Somali appearance,

:06:07.:06:11.

is in custody. He is being questioned on suspicion of

:06:11.:06:17.

attempted murder. It is not being treated as a suspected hate crime.

:06:17.:06:22.

More in a press conference about an hour's time. Hundreds of Turkish

:06:22.:06:27.

police officers have used tear-gas to clear demonstrators from a park

:06:27.:06:31.

in central Istanbul where they have been protesting against the Prime

:06:31.:06:35.

Minister. The move prompted unrest elsewhere in the City with some

:06:35.:06:43.

people starting bonfires. There were protests in other parts of the

:06:43.:06:48.

country. The bodies of two men have been recovered after emergency

:06:48.:06:53.

crews were searching for climbers off Anglesey. The bodies were found

:06:53.:07:03.
:07:03.:07:03.

in Holyhead. That is all the news for now. More news on BBC One at

:07:03.:07:13.
:07:13.:07:19.

630 per pm. -- 6:35pm. Events in Syria are expected to escalate. Two

:07:19.:07:28.

big questions for the week ahead. So, the G8. Talking about lots of

:07:28.:07:32.

things from Syria to tax. Will it achieve anything? The summit will

:07:32.:07:38.

be as consequential as all the other summits - that is to say, a

:07:38.:07:43.

not very. Over the next few decades, it will become even less

:07:43.:07:51.

significant because it does not include China. The dilemma is, of

:07:51.:07:57.

the G8 does not include some of the most powerful countries in the

:07:57.:08:02.

world. The specific issue they will be focusing on this time - tax

:08:02.:08:06.

transparency and dealing with tax avoidance - is almost impossible to

:08:06.:08:10.

deal with. It is in the interests of every country to do something

:08:10.:08:15.

about this but in no individual countries' interests to be the

:08:15.:08:22.

first mover. Then your tax system becomes uncompetitive and you may

:08:22.:08:27.

lose business investment. I have to agree with that. You saw David

:08:27.:08:31.

Cameron hailing this great victory. Developing countries can request

:08:31.:08:36.

details of who owns stuff in British Crown dependencies of. That

:08:36.:08:44.

is pretty pathetic. She is saying G8 has never been relevant. When it

:08:44.:08:49.

was last chaired by us, it was relevant. It was relevant because

:08:49.:08:54.

states could do things because they had money. You could have a bit

:08:54.:08:58.

campaign and write off some debt. You have to be much more modest.

:08:58.:09:03.

David Cameron was joking in an interview on Friday about, where

:09:03.:09:08.

are all these communiques? He said it is like Carlsberg complaints

:09:08.:09:13.

department. No one is man in that office. He is much more modest.

:09:13.:09:21.

States are much more modest. He talked about Monaco as being a

:09:21.:09:26.

sunny place for shady people. David Cameron wants to crack down on

:09:26.:09:31.

secretive companies acting in secretive applications. There will

:09:31.:09:37.

be a register in the UK. Will other G8 leaders agree? They will say it

:09:37.:09:45.

is a fantastic idea and then do relatively little. On Twitter, it

:09:45.:09:51.

has gone wild over the interview with Mr Robinson. What did he make

:09:51.:09:58.

of it? I was expecting him to give you the mild hairdryer treatment.

:09:58.:10:07.

They do not have any MPs. I thought the interview worked well. We heard

:10:07.:10:13.

about his convictions and members. EDL says it has 35,000 members and

:10:13.:10:20.

he does not have control over them. Should someone who is head of

:10:20.:10:23.

something like the EDL be interviewed at all on national

:10:23.:10:27.

television? That particular interview suggested that, yes,

:10:27.:10:32.

there should be. It is not only a compelling spectacle, it reveals

:10:32.:10:38.

new facts. I did not know about the prior BMP membership. There is a

:10:38.:10:43.

strong case for giving them a platform. Three weeks ago, the

:10:43.:10:47.

British soldier was murdered in the most stomach-churning fashion on a

:10:47.:10:54.

London street. Since then, the big issue has been the EDL. I worried

:10:54.:10:58.

that British elites generally finds it easier to talk about the EDL and

:10:58.:11:02.

the Far Right than about terror. That does not reflect well on us.

:11:02.:11:08.

In his own way, Mr Robinson is an accomplished performer. Yes. He

:11:08.:11:13.

wiggles round. You got him on the fundamental points - were you a

:11:14.:11:18.

member of the BNP? Yes. You talked about her you were going to go

:11:18.:11:26.

after Islamic communities but he did actually say it. -- you are

:11:26.:11:35.

going to go. Do we focus too much on the right? Should we be focusing

:11:35.:11:39.

more on the EDL equivalent in the Islamic community? Of course you

:11:39.:11:44.

should. You should question all people with massively controversial

:11:44.:11:51.

views. What is really interesting over the last month is how Mr

:11:51.:11:56.

Robinson has been comprehensively defeated, not by you, but by the

:11:56.:12:02.

where the vast majority of the Islamic community has sort of been

:12:02.:12:07.

hugely - completely - UN divisive. There was an EDL demonstration

:12:07.:12:15.

outside a mosque. There has been a total condemnation of the Woolwich

:12:15.:12:25.
:12:25.:12:29.

You three have always asked me, Andrew, how did the Liberal

:12:29.:12:37.

Democrats... I am an expert! How do they operate? Where does the power

:12:37.:12:43.

lie? I will exclusively reveal to you, this is the Lib Dem

:12:43.:12:49.

organisational chart. Or, it is a drunken spider, dipped in ink,

:12:49.:12:59.

allowed to walk around the pages. It reminds me of my GCSE coursework.

:12:59.:13:02.

What that reveals his, no wonder people did not know who to take

:13:02.:13:12.

complaints to. You could think that came from the be Give It A Try.

:13:12.:13:22.
:13:22.:13:24.

at LEA thick of it. It is not quite as complicated as the BBC or

:13:24.:13:33.

anagram. -- organogram. This party was not in power but now it is.

:13:33.:13:41.

Clean up its flow chart. That is all. The usual lunchtime treats at

:13:41.:13:44.

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