26/01/2014 Sunday Politics London


26/01/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:41.

Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.

:00:42.:00:44.

He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back

:00:45.:00:49.

the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old

:00:50.:00:53.

Labour? If you go to work by public

:00:54.:00:57.

transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -

:00:58.:01:00.

again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's

:01:01.:01:03.

our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week

:01:04.:01:07.

across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?

:01:08.:01:12.

This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans like

:01:13.:01:14.

Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant

:01:15.:01:17.

week for the party, they might have something to say. And here they are.

:01:18.:01:19.

Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all three are now

:01:20.:01:21.

unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His

:01:22.:01:22.

office said he had a And with me - as always - the

:01:23.:01:42.

political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular

:01:43.:01:45.

they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate

:01:46.:01:48.

to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and

:01:49.:01:51.

they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami

:01:52.:02:04.

Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.

:02:05.:02:11.

Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour

:02:12.:02:15.

would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.

:02:16.:02:19.

But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,

:02:20.:02:22.

Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a

:02:23.:02:26.

return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is

:02:27.:02:29.

anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this

:02:30.:02:31.

morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open

:02:32.:02:34.

up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely

:02:35.:02:36.

with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances

:02:37.:02:39.

and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last

:02:40.:02:41.

few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the

:02:42.:02:45.

next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the

:02:46.:02:55.

deficit down, of course they do. But to cut the top rate... It is foolish

:02:56.:03:01.

and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,

:03:02.:03:04.

pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get

:03:05.:03:09.

this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy

:03:10.:03:16.

work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now

:03:17.:03:22.

in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the

:03:23.:03:26.

political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new

:03:27.:03:30.

voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to

:03:31.:03:34.

vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people

:03:35.:03:41.

enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it

:03:42.:03:47.

is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving

:03:48.:03:52.

beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there

:03:53.:03:55.

has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the

:03:56.:03:59.

Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with

:04:00.:04:03.

their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done

:04:04.:04:09.

this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will

:04:10.:04:12.

have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony

:04:13.:04:18.

Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on

:04:19.:04:26.

how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things

:04:27.:04:32.

isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are

:04:33.:04:40.

going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push

:04:41.:04:43.

the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,

:04:44.:04:52.

?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All

:04:53.:04:58.

three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget

:04:59.:05:02.

surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12

:05:03.:05:06.

billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls

:05:07.:05:12.

is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate. The

:05:13.:05:16.

contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what

:05:17.:05:21.

does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is

:05:22.:05:26.

cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question

:05:27.:05:29.

that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the

:05:30.:05:34.

Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its

:05:35.:05:38.

side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking

:05:39.:05:42.

difficult for them this morning. Does it matter if Labour has

:05:43.:05:48.

business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this

:05:49.:05:52.

announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed

:05:53.:05:56.

Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a

:05:57.:06:01.

result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not

:06:02.:06:07.

to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a

:06:08.:06:12.

measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of

:06:13.:06:16.

things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has

:06:17.:06:21.

taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI

:06:22.:06:27.

don't want us to leave business. Business is in a bit of a cleft

:06:28.:06:33.

stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls

:06:34.:06:36.

is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on

:06:37.:06:40.

that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They

:06:41.:06:44.

probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this

:06:45.:06:50.

is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what

:06:51.:06:54.

go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was

:06:55.:06:59.

introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate

:07:00.:07:04.

where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib

:07:05.:07:09.

Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick

:07:10.:07:13.

Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking

:07:14.:07:15.

confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of

:07:16.:07:18.

criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a

:07:19.:07:21.

Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's

:07:22.:07:25.

Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority

:07:26.:07:30.

as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone

:07:31.:07:35.

to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting

:07:36.:07:38.

him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly

:07:39.:07:46.

destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I

:07:47.:07:50.

would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to

:07:51.:07:56.

stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in

:07:57.:08:02.

trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard

:08:03.:08:08.

over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of

:08:09.:08:13.

women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more. I

:08:14.:08:18.

said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of

:08:19.:08:21.

Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn't. I

:08:22.:08:30.

think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal

:08:31.:08:34.

Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say

:08:35.:08:38.

sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards

:08:39.:08:44.

legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.

:08:45.:08:47.

This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the

:08:48.:08:52.

leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due

:08:53.:08:57.

process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the

:08:58.:09:03.

Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the

:09:04.:09:07.

future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in

:09:08.:09:13.

the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses

:09:14.:09:18.

of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the

:09:19.:09:25.

simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the

:09:26.:09:28.

complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that

:09:29.:09:33.

arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?

:09:34.:09:38.

The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but

:09:39.:09:44.

if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some

:09:45.:09:49.

long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the

:09:50.:09:53.

innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due

:09:54.:09:56.

process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever

:09:57.:10:02.

did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing

:10:03.:10:06.

ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He

:10:07.:10:11.

refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that

:10:12.:10:14.

report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his

:10:15.:10:18.

membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a

:10:19.:10:23.

crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal

:10:24.:10:26.

action against the party by the man long credited with building its

:10:27.:10:30.

success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory

:10:31.:10:34.

MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the

:10:35.:10:37.

Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without

:10:38.:10:42.

any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather

:10:43.:10:46.

serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib

:10:47.:10:50.

Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into

:10:51.:10:55.

allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a

:10:56.:11:00.

constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these

:11:01.:11:04.

sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg

:11:05.:11:10.

ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most

:11:11.:11:16.

powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.

:11:17.:11:21.

Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already

:11:22.:11:24.

know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.

:11:25.:11:32.

You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two

:11:33.:11:35.

is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of

:11:36.:11:39.

coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak

:11:40.:11:42.

to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party

:11:43.:11:45.

veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a

:11:46.:11:53.

significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And

:11:54.:11:57.

here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all

:11:58.:12:03.

three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the

:12:04.:12:06.

outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon

:12:07.:12:09.

Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,

:12:10.:12:13.

"I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the

:12:14.:12:17.

candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen

:12:18.:12:22.

by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard

:12:23.:12:26.

thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to

:12:27.:12:34.

answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad

:12:35.:12:41.

politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic

:12:42.:12:45.

irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too

:12:46.:12:51.

democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed

:12:52.:12:54.

Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has

:12:55.:12:58.

to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it

:12:59.:13:06.

democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was

:13:07.:13:17.

voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was

:13:18.:13:22.

new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already

:13:23.:13:29.

hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long

:13:30.:13:34.

Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for

:13:35.:13:37.

them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this

:13:38.:13:41.

their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The

:13:42.:13:46.

third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in

:13:47.:13:49.

the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They

:13:50.:13:54.

do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris

:13:55.:13:59.

Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal

:14:00.:14:03.

Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a

:14:04.:14:07.

line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that

:14:08.:14:11.

the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that

:14:12.:14:15.

there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very

:14:16.:14:18.

difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is

:14:19.:14:23.

threatening through his friends, these famous friends, to spill all

:14:24.:14:27.

the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the

:14:28.:14:31.

Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where

:14:32.:14:34.

they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in

:14:35.:14:39.

the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the

:14:40.:14:43.

summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a

:14:44.:14:48.

good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising

:14:49.:14:52.

authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.

:14:53.:14:55.

Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a

:14:56.:14:59.

leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic

:15:00.:15:03.

or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it

:15:04.:15:08.

is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over

:15:09.:15:15.

events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You

:15:16.:15:20.

don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has

:15:21.:15:31.

been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over

:15:32.:15:35.

whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well

:15:36.:15:38.

there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's

:15:39.:15:41.

the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail

:15:42.:15:44.

commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost

:15:45.:15:47.

of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while

:15:48.:15:53.

wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail

:15:54.:16:00.

users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out

:16:01.:16:05.

more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get

:16:06.:16:08.

to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European

:16:09.:16:15.

counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their

:16:16.:16:23.

average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like

:16:24.:16:28.

season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with

:16:29.:16:31.

ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are

:16:32.:16:36.

more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins

:16:37.:16:49.

me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome. You claim to be in the

:16:50.:16:53.

party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power

:16:54.:16:59.

rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up

:17:00.:17:05.

in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms

:17:06.:17:12.

by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten

:17:13.:17:18.

years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The

:17:19.:17:22.

Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the

:17:23.:17:31.

passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year

:17:32.:17:37.

in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing

:17:38.:17:43.

huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for

:17:44.:17:47.

the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending ?500

:17:48.:17:53.

million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we

:17:54.:17:59.

are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will

:18:00.:18:05.

invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an

:18:06.:18:13.

expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season

:18:14.:18:18.

ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's

:18:19.:18:23.

look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost

:18:24.:18:30.

over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international

:18:31.:18:37.

cities. The British commuter is being ripped

:18:38.:18:51.

off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our

:18:52.:18:56.

railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge

:18:57.:19:00.

amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got

:19:01.:19:07.

here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White

:19:08.:19:22.

-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen

:19:23.:19:30.

transformational changes in our railway services and we need to

:19:31.:19:35.

carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started

:19:36.:19:40.

investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than

:19:41.:19:50.

our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy

:19:51.:19:58.

is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You

:19:59.:20:04.

is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to

:20:05.:20:06.

be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these

:20:07.:20:11.

figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their

:20:12.:20:17.

homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a

:20:18.:20:23.

reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway

:20:24.:20:26.

industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway

:20:27.:20:31.

20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to

:20:32.:20:40.

1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look

:20:41.:20:45.

1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German

:20:46.:20:45.

government, the Ministry of transport.

:20:46.:20:59.

They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to

:21:00.:21:05.

subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing

:21:06.:21:11.

British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are

:21:12.:21:16.

winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?

:21:17.:21:21.

They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more

:21:22.:21:25.

cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but

:21:26.:21:31.

overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still

:21:32.:21:36.

seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.

:21:37.:21:43.

Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the

:21:44.:21:49.

lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have

:21:50.:21:55.

stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised

:21:56.:22:01.

the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the

:22:02.:22:09.

lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for

:22:10.:22:15.

example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We

:22:16.:22:20.

are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is

:22:21.:22:23.

still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the

:22:24.:22:29.

rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you

:22:30.:22:34.

link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay

:22:35.:22:44.

for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton

:22:45.:22:48.

Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.5

:22:49.:22:53.

billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we

:22:54.:22:58.

have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for

:22:59.:23:11.

it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until

:23:12.:23:15.

the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket

:23:16.:23:24.

has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the

:23:25.:23:30.

passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who

:23:31.:23:46.

has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our

:23:47.:23:49.

railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance

:23:50.:23:54.

right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the

:23:55.:23:59.

user of public transport. I don't accept that. They are paying the

:24:00.:24:08.

same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that

:24:09.:24:15.

there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record

:24:16.:24:22.

amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a

:24:23.:24:27.

time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters

:24:28.:24:33.

particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of

:24:34.:24:39.

living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,

:24:40.:24:44.

and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered

:24:45.:24:59.

new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,

:25:00.:25:03.

they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you

:25:04.:25:09.

are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did

:25:10.:25:14.

before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It

:25:15.:25:19.

is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for. Why

:25:20.:25:28.

not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more

:25:29.:25:33.

pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we

:25:34.:25:38.

are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that

:25:39.:25:41.

is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,

:25:42.:25:47.

yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed

:25:48.:25:56.

two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your

:25:57.:26:01.

department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission

:26:02.:26:07.

to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now

:26:08.:26:12.

widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for

:26:13.:26:18.

purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it

:26:19.:26:24.

is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have

:26:25.:26:29.

extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to

:26:30.:26:40.

make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a

:26:41.:26:44.

different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.

:26:45.:26:58.

What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by

:26:59.:27:02.

Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and

:27:03.:27:07.

I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the

:27:08.:27:12.

end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the

:27:13.:27:17.

House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will

:27:18.:27:23.

get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the

:27:24.:27:29.

exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress

:27:30.:27:37.

through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have

:27:38.:27:44.

concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the

:27:45.:27:48.

line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure

:27:49.:27:58.

is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as

:27:59.:28:05.

chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are

:28:06.:28:08.

ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London

:28:09.:28:14.

we are building Crossrail, ?14.5 billion investment. There was a

:28:15.:28:19.

report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.

:28:20.:28:27.

Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in

:28:28.:28:36.

the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay

:28:37.:28:41.

people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on

:28:42.:28:47.

?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are

:28:48.:28:54.

very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we

:28:55.:28:59.

are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.

:29:00.:29:04.

It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather

:29:05.:29:08.

pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big

:29:09.:29:13.

rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national

:29:14.:29:17.

infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty

:29:18.:29:24.

so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and

:29:25.:29:28.

all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the

:29:29.:29:32.

Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what

:29:33.:29:36.

our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take

:29:37.:29:42.

them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many

:29:43.:29:52.

conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the

:29:53.:30:00.

immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and

:30:01.:30:06.

Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of

:30:07.:30:10.

migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been

:30:11.:30:16.

more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz

:30:17.:30:21.

greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days

:30:22.:30:26.

and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new

:30:27.:30:29.

Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from

:30:30.:30:35.

backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel

:30:36.:30:40.

Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians

:30:41.:30:51.

can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the

:30:52.:30:55.

amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there

:30:56.:31:03.

hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to

:31:04.:31:07.

restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to

:31:08.:31:12.

2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st,

:31:13.:31:16.

Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350,000

:31:17.:31:21.

people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,

:31:22.:31:27.

especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in

:31:28.:31:31.

excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The

:31:32.:31:36.

real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,

:31:37.:31:42.

attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our

:31:43.:31:46.

people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to

:31:47.:31:51.

accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding

:31:52.:31:56.

principle of the European Union? We were trying to keep the restrictions

:31:57.:32:00.

that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU

:32:01.:32:04.

membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't

:32:05.:32:09.

aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still

:32:10.:32:12.

recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK

:32:13.:32:18.

Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible

:32:19.:32:23.

recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is

:32:24.:32:26.

worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their

:32:27.:32:35.

accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a

:32:36.:32:38.

law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?

:32:39.:32:43.

Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in

:32:44.:32:50.

work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane

:32:51.:32:55.

Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach

:32:56.:33:00.

of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs

:33:01.:33:04.

have been particularly mindless, because what they want to do

:33:05.:33:08.

wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say

:33:09.:33:14.

so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be

:33:15.:33:21.

going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.

:33:22.:33:25.

They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed

:33:26.:33:29.

to be debating before Christmas. As we speak they've not cut a deal, so

:33:30.:33:34.

it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I

:33:35.:33:40.

think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount

:33:41.:33:44.

of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to

:33:45.:33:50.

achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get

:33:51.:33:53.

free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I

:33:54.:33:57.

think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking

:33:58.:34:01.

for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years

:34:02.:34:06.

while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about

:34:07.:34:11.

the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in

:34:12.:34:16.

the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they

:34:17.:34:21.

said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using

:34:22.:34:25.

their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the

:34:26.:34:29.

past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they

:34:30.:34:34.

take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating

:34:35.:34:39.

Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing

:34:40.:34:43.

people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party

:34:44.:34:48.

apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,

:34:49.:34:53.

Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather

:34:54.:34:58.

see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a

:34:59.:35:04.

very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute

:35:05.:35:08.

book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need

:35:09.:35:12.

to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU

:35:13.:35:16.

migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill

:35:17.:35:24.

without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the

:35:25.:35:29.

bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will

:35:30.:35:34.

depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking

:35:35.:35:41.

tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has

:35:42.:35:45.

been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed

:35:46.:35:49.

Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the

:35:50.:35:54.

Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for

:35:55.:36:01.

the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He

:36:02.:36:06.

hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this

:36:07.:36:11.

end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of

:36:12.:36:16.

amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We

:36:17.:36:20.

want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am

:36:21.:36:25.

proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the

:36:26.:36:29.

restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and

:36:30.:36:34.

driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more

:36:35.:36:39.

measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be --

:36:40.:36:47.

popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane

:36:48.:36:53.

Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and

:36:54.:36:56.

high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP

:36:57.:36:59.

councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last

:37:00.:37:01.

weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay

:37:02.:37:04.

marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to

:37:05.:37:08.

bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least

:37:09.:37:10.

UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.

:37:11.:37:19.

Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week

:37:20.:37:23.

ahead with our political panel. Until then, the Sunday Politics

:37:24.:37:25.

across the UK. Hello and welcome from us and

:37:26.:37:37.

welcome straight away to my guests for the duration this week, Greg

:37:38.:37:44.

Hands, and Jeremy Corbyn, Labour MP for Islington north. Later on we'll

:37:45.:37:49.

be finding out why most but not all London councils are set to freeze

:37:50.:37:52.

their council tax this year, ahead of local elections in the capital.

:37:53.:37:57.

But first, to the propaganda war being waged between tube unions and

:37:58.:38:02.

transport bosses ahead of two planned strikes next month, and the

:38:03.:38:07.

opening of a new front, with TfL claiming it had persuaded a,000 or

:38:08.:38:12.

so members of staff to act as so-called tube ambassadors,

:38:13.:38:15.

attempting to keep transport moving during the planned 48-hour stop am

:38:16.:38:21.

as. Them volunteer scabs, the RMT claimed. No, they were responding to

:38:22.:38:26.

totally unnecessary strikes, said TfL. What do you make of this? I

:38:27.:38:32.

strongly agree with TfL. These are totally unnecessary strikes. The

:38:33.:38:36.

package being proposed to reform the tube, to create 24 hour service on

:38:37.:38:43.

key tube lines, and funding that by end ticket offices, where at the

:38:44.:38:48.

moment fewer than 3% of tube journeys are carried out using a

:38:49.:38:51.

ticket bought from a ticket office, so why don't we bring ourselves up

:38:52.:38:56.

to date, get a 24 hour tube like it hat had in New York City, and in

:38:57.:39:00.

return end the practice of these tube offices, make sure there's

:39:01.:39:03.

staff there, mare that the network is safe? I would volunteer to be an

:39:04.:39:09.

ambassador if I had time to do the training. If they are watching we'll

:39:10.:39:14.

pass on your details. Jeremy Corbyn? How about the Mayor meeting the tube

:39:15.:39:21.

unions? He hasn't met them in six years and he hasn't interacted with

:39:22.:39:26.

those elected to act for the staff he is responsible for. 1,000 jobs

:39:27.:39:31.

being lost, and 100,000 people from day use ticket offices. When I came

:39:32.:39:35.

out of a parliamentary debate, I went to Westminster station, a long

:39:36.:39:39.

queue of people trying to get to the ticket office. Mostly non-English

:39:40.:39:46.

speaking tourists. Finsbury Park station packed with people.

:39:47.:39:50.

Heathrow, this is a ludicrous proposal. Why not get together with

:39:51.:39:56.

the unions and talk about it. What about this strategy this week of

:39:57.:40:00.

claiming that there are going to be these ambassadors, drawing on the

:40:01.:40:05.

spirit, the idea from the Olympics, volunteers coming to the front

:40:06.:40:09.

line... People volunteered for the Olympics because they wanteded to be

:40:10.:40:13.

ambassadors for London. They did a fantastic job. Boris Johnson is

:40:14.:40:17.

turning logic on its head to think people want to come in to break a

:40:18.:40:22.

strike and be volunteers. You see these as strike breakers These are

:40:23.:40:31.

trained volunteers. To stop the track... These are people who will

:40:32.:40:36.

be trained. You support closure of the offices. You had your say,

:40:37.:40:42.

Jeremy, let me have mine. My constituent has more tube users than

:40:43.:40:46.

any other in the country. My tube users depend on that service. Due

:40:47.:40:53.

agree with TfL looking for ambassadors who are going to come

:40:54.:40:57.

front of house? I do. It should be applauded. To get the tube working

:40:58.:41:02.

and stop this irresponsible four days of strike at a time when the

:41:03.:41:07.

London economy is really starting to pick up, that's sabotage of the

:41:08.:41:12.

network and asupport the robust response. 100,000 people were day

:41:13.:41:20.

already cannot get help. It will be a 24 hour tube servicification,

:41:21.:41:24.

which is what London needs at this time. This is about closure of

:41:25.:41:29.

ticket offices and the closure of thousands of jobs. You know not many

:41:30.:41:39.

people use the offices now. I go to Fulham Broadway twice a day. Stand

:41:40.:41:45.

at a ticket office. My ticket office. Mind out why people use

:41:46.:41:50.

ticket office - for information, tickets, Oyster Cards. There'll

:41:51.:41:57.

still be the staff there. I suspect there is another agenda here for the

:41:58.:42:03.

Mayor. Let's move on. London borough elections are in May and most

:42:04.:42:07.

authorities are intending to freeze council tax, though not all.

:42:08.:42:12.

This week Sunday Politics spoke to all of London's 33 local authorities

:42:13.:42:17.

to ask what their plans were for council tax this year. Only 8 have

:42:18.:42:21.

yet to announce their attention. The rest want to freeze council tax,

:42:22.:42:25.

except Hammersmith and Barnet, which are going for a cut. According to

:42:26.:42:28.

the Government that's evidence that local authorities are more than

:42:29.:42:32.

capable of dealing with the cuts handed Dowd by Whitehall. We already

:42:33.:42:36.

know the majority, particularly in London, of councils are going to be

:42:37.:42:40.

freezing council tax or cutting it this year. Well run Councils can

:42:41.:42:45.

deliver more for less. Here in Conservative-run Barnet, one of two

:42:46.:42:49.

councils going for a cut, the local authority has made national

:42:50.:42:54.

headlines for its so-called One Barnet programme, sometimes called

:42:55.:42:58.

the largest outsourcing project in local government. Back office

:42:59.:43:02.

functions are operated by a private company called Capita. On top of

:43:03.:43:07.

that jobs like repaving the street are done by a private company. Half

:43:08.:43:12.

owned by Capita and half by the council. The idea is that that new

:43:13.:43:15.

company would sell services around the country to whoever wanted to buy

:43:16.:43:19.

them. If money was made, Barnet would split the profits with Capita.

:43:20.:43:24.

As of yet though, they haven't found any buyers. But the council's

:43:25.:43:28.

already making money from this site at Millbrook Park. When it is

:43:29.:43:32.

finished there'll be over 2,000 new homes here, a joint venture between

:43:33.:43:36.

the council and two private companies. If this doesn't look like

:43:37.:43:40.

council housing, it might be because it is not. It is just private

:43:41.:43:44.

property developed by the council, sold the private buyers and the aim

:43:45.:43:48.

is to make the local authority money. But elsewhere in the borough

:43:49.:43:53.

the council's efforts to raise money are accused of causing real

:43:54.:43:58.

distress. This is Jan set. Her husband died last year. We had

:43:59.:44:02.

probably been together more than 30 years. We had been married more than

:44:03.:44:09.

30 years, and in his early 60s he developed dementia. At first Barnet

:44:10.:44:14.

Council paid for his daycare. I think the trips to the day centre

:44:15.:44:19.

were very important both for him and for myself, because it gave him an

:44:20.:44:22.

opportunity to mix with other people, and for me it was an

:44:23.:44:29.

opportunity for respite, and to know he was safe. But after the council

:44:30.:44:34.

introduced means testing Janet had to pay ?37 a day. I probably felt

:44:35.:44:39.

the stress of it more, because I was the one dealing with the finances,

:44:40.:44:47.

and with the bills coming in. Yes, I found it very worrying with. Another

:44:48.:44:53.

issue to deal with in what was becoming quite a difficult situation

:44:54.:44:58.

where you couldn't manage, it was out of control. An election debate

:44:59.:45:15.

organised this week, the council cuts to services were high on the

:45:16.:45:23.

agenda. I believe it is a gimmick, and it will be an expensive gimmick

:45:24.:45:28.

for the residents of Barnet because it is unsustainable. You cannot cut

:45:29.:45:33.

the council tax and maintain services. UKIP were not invited,

:45:34.:45:41.

they still turned up. One politician who was invited and declined the

:45:42.:45:46.

opportunity to make his case was the Conservative leader of the Council,

:45:47.:45:50.

Richard Cornelius. Not there, but he is here, Richard

:45:51.:45:57.

Cornelius, welcome to you. It was described as a gimmick. How much do

:45:58.:46:05.

you plan to be in -- bring the council tax down? It is ?21 for an

:46:06.:46:15.

average council taxpayer in a year, a small amount. It is a gesture. We

:46:16.:46:20.

have been working hard, we have managed to cut the cost of running

:46:21.:46:25.

the council and everybody should share in that. You accept it is a

:46:26.:46:32.

gesture really. Yes, but it shows the direction of travel and our

:46:33.:46:42.

aspirations. What about the case of the lady who suffered as a result of

:46:43.:46:55.

introducing the means testing. It is fair that people who can contribute

:46:56.:47:00.

to contribute, and that is what has happened in this case. Do you think

:47:01.:47:09.

it has proved popular? Yes, there is a wide recognition that the welfare

:47:10.:47:14.

system has to reform. It is unsustainable if it is unfair. There

:47:15.:47:20.

is also the added complication he is suffering from dementia, it is a bit

:47:21.:47:28.

of a shock for them, isn't it? It is well flagged up and she was treated

:47:29.:47:34.

kindly, and her husband's care was provided by a charity. The

:47:35.:47:37.

perception was that she could afford to pay and so she should, whereas

:47:38.:47:42.

there are many unfortunate people who need help more. When you talk

:47:43.:47:49.

about a gesture, it is important to provide a gesture such as this

:47:50.:47:53.

because it is an election year? Do you need to persuade people about

:47:54.:47:59.

your transformation and the outsourcing that you mean business?

:48:00.:48:06.

We had to cut our spending by 33% and frankly unbelievable that we

:48:07.:48:10.

could do it, but we did achieve that. You don't think that is fair?

:48:11.:48:16.

In hindsight it was fair because we have managed to do it and most other

:48:17.:48:21.

London boroughs have managed to do it so it chose it can be done, and

:48:22.:48:25.

now we are faced with the situation where it is right to give something

:48:26.:48:30.

back to the taxpayer to show that we are at heart a tax-cutting party.

:48:31.:48:36.

Would you agree that it shows what is possible now? Know, it loses

:48:37.:48:46.

democratic control, it is damaging for the poorest people in the

:48:47.:48:56.

borough, and it is a model of local government that makes easyJet and

:48:57.:49:01.

Ryanair look comfortable and efficient. This is a novel proposal

:49:02.:49:06.

put forward by Barnet and it is not very popular in Barnet, and I can't

:49:07.:49:11.

understand why you can't go to a public meeting to defend it. It

:49:12.:49:18.

hasn't cost 80 million to do this, but that is providing services as

:49:19.:49:25.

well. 80 million to sell it. That's not true, it is a contract, we are

:49:26.:49:30.

paying somebody to do something that we were less able to do

:49:31.:49:35.

efficiently. We have now outsourced the back-office function, it is a

:49:36.:49:40.

no-brainer. Do you claim these councils are freezing their council

:49:41.:49:47.

tax because they can? It is not too tough for them. I agree with

:49:48.:49:52.

Richard. The other council cutting its council tax this year is mine.

:49:53.:49:59.

The point is that you can cut council tax and deliver better

:50:00.:50:03.

services. In Hammersmith and Fulham Council tax is down 20% in the last

:50:04.:50:09.

seven years, in that time we have produced cleaner streets, we have

:50:10.:50:16.

halved the debt of the council. On the wider principle, not about your

:50:17.:50:20.

own constituency in this instance, because we haven't heard from the

:50:21.:50:25.

film, from you, from Richard, one of the reasons the boroughs have no

:50:26.:50:35.

choice is because of this bride, the freeze grant. It would be impossible

:50:36.:50:42.

to reverse what happened under Labour, we recognise council tax is

:50:43.:50:46.

something we need to keep down as a government, and well-run

:50:47.:50:51.

Conservative councils delivering that show it is perfectly possible

:50:52.:50:56.

to deliver better services with less tax taken. That is shown by Barnet,

:50:57.:51:03.

Hammersmith and Fulham and others. My council has taken a lot of

:51:04.:51:08.

services back in-house because it is cheaper, secondly what has been the

:51:09.:51:13.

effect on these councils on housing waiting lists and adult social

:51:14.:51:19.

care? It is the poorest people who suffer when this strategy is

:51:20.:51:25.

followed. That's not fair. We have taken recycling back in-house. Are

:51:26.:51:32.

you going to keep it after the election? Yes, we will take it in

:51:33.:51:38.

and week aim to run an efficient service which will save money in the

:51:39.:51:48.

next cycle. You haven't looked at what we have actually done. We have

:51:49.:51:53.

outsourced some, but you are believing the hype that come from

:51:54.:51:58.

those people at the meeting. They are residents of your borough, you

:51:59.:52:05.

should be more respectful. Thank you. It has been five years since

:52:06.:52:15.

the expenses scandal, but recently a Parliamentary committee found that

:52:16.:52:19.

MPs were struggling to cope with the restrictions imposed as a result of

:52:20.:52:26.

the scandal. In 2009 the UK was rocked by the expenses scandal. Over

:52:27.:52:30.

half of MPs were ordered to repay the money to the taxpayer. Dodgy

:52:31.:52:35.

dealings included overpaying for mortgages, having family members on

:52:36.:52:40.

the payroll, and charging the taxpayer for an ornamental doghouse.

:52:41.:52:46.

Three MPs resigned and five have been jailed. In the wake of the

:52:47.:52:51.

scandal, the independent Parliamentary standards authority

:52:52.:52:54.

was set up to sort out the mess, introducing regulation of expenses.

:52:55.:53:02.

Now that same body has launched a consultation on the new expenses

:53:03.:53:05.

system and this week MPs for a consultation on the new expenses

:53:06.:53:09.

system and this week MPs gave their penalised by the new rules. Reasons

:53:10.:53:12.

given included: Final decision on the issue rests

:53:13.:53:33.

with the new regulator, IPSA, but with considerable public anger over

:53:34.:53:39.

the 11% pay rise for MPs scheduled in 2015, any increase is likely to

:53:40.:53:44.

cause a stir. Mark Littlewood is here from the think tank. Our London

:53:45.:53:57.

MPs short-changed? No, this is special pleading, and I would think

:53:58.:54:02.

that people who commute in from many miles away, my father commuted in a

:54:03.:54:11.

three-hour return journey every day and he never complained about it.

:54:12.:54:18.

Staff costs, office costs, those expenses are probably not taken

:54:19.:54:22.

account of, are they? There is already London weighting for London

:54:23.:54:31.

MPs and I think they can stuff their offices cheaply. There are loads of

:54:32.:54:35.

young people who want their first step on the career ladder. I'm sure

:54:36.:54:41.

your guests could confirm. Very bright people on modest salaries who

:54:42.:54:48.

want to get in. Do you think that is right? It is perfectly acceptable, I

:54:49.:54:54.

don't have a problem with that. The part I find shocking is that MPs

:54:55.:54:58.

should be paid differently in London because of the peculiar and

:54:59.:55:04.

difficult issues London MPs face. We cannot set salaries are lances based

:55:05.:55:08.

on some social metric of each constituency and I would have

:55:09.:55:13.

thought it is harder to say to a member of Parliament for Northern

:55:14.:55:20.

Ireland than it is for, say, the Member of Parliament for London.

:55:21.:55:25.

What do you think? They don't need hotels, they can commute, but we are

:55:26.:55:30.

plagued with this idea that we can always reduce wages and costs,

:55:31.:55:35.

bringing in unpaid interns, which ends up with the children of the

:55:36.:55:38.

wealthy get on the career ladder because they can afford to work for

:55:39.:55:44.

nothing. Also, please be aware of this, if you represent inner London

:55:45.:55:50.

constituency, there is a massive amount of casework, social

:55:51.:55:55.

tensions, housing problems. I am inundated with casework all the

:55:56.:55:59.

time, my staff work incredibly hard doing it, but it does cost. If you

:56:00.:56:13.

are rural MP in a rural constituency you could argue you need more staff

:56:14.:56:18.

costs to cover multiple offices in different parts of a large rural

:56:19.:56:24.

constituency. The point though is that the stuff budget for MPs in the

:56:25.:56:29.

eight years I have been a member of Parliament has doubled. The London

:56:30.:56:34.

part of that budget has quadrupled in that time. I don't think the

:56:35.:56:38.

London MPs on the staff budget side are hard done by, in fact slightly

:56:39.:56:43.

the opposite. Would you pay anyone here a bit more money? How you set

:56:44.:56:50.

MPs' salaries is fiendishly difficult. They got in trouble for

:56:51.:56:55.

it when they voted for it themselves, now we have the

:56:56.:57:00.

independent authority. I don't know how we can try to make MPs' salaries

:57:01.:57:05.

more performance related, but in general terms it strikes me with the

:57:06.:57:12.

salary of the MP being around ?68,000 per annum, that does seem to

:57:13.:57:16.

attract a lot of people to vacancies. If either of these were

:57:17.:57:24.

to step down, there would be hundreds of applicants at this level

:57:25.:57:30.

of salary. I don't think most people go into politics for the money. I am

:57:31.:57:34.

against the pay rise for MPs and I hope it doesn't happen because MPs

:57:35.:57:40.

have voted for a pay freeze for the rest of the sector and should have

:57:41.:57:45.

won themselves. Now it is time for the rest of the political news in 60

:57:46.:57:53.

seconds. An extra 65 million journeys in London could be made

:57:54.:57:57.

using three Crossrail stations annually by 2026, revised figures

:57:58.:58:02.

show. The report looked at Tottenham Court Road, Bond Street and

:58:03.:58:06.

Farringdon stations and found population growth has outstripped

:58:07.:58:10.

the original estimate. The Supreme Court has rejected a legal bid by

:58:11.:58:15.

objectors to the HS2 to force further scrutiny of the plans of the

:58:16.:58:19.

Government. The challenge focused on whether the Government follow the

:58:20.:58:22.

rules when it assessed environmental impact. A group of nine retired

:58:23.:58:28.

constituents in Croydon South were met by two officers and a police car

:58:29.:58:32.

when they tried to deliver a petition to their local MP. Richard

:58:33.:58:36.

Ottaway called for police protection and only the leader of the group was

:58:37.:58:40.

allowed into the constituency office. The London assembly report

:58:41.:58:44.

showed crime in London has fallen significantly less than in the rest

:58:45.:58:48.

of the country over the last decade, rates have fallen by 38% nationally

:58:49.:58:57.

but just 27% in London. Greg, how can that be that police performance,

:58:58.:59:01.

relatively to other parts of the country, isn't as good? Crying in

:59:02.:59:08.

London is falling very rapidly, in fact crime in Hammersmith and Fulham

:59:09.:59:11.

where I represent is at the lowest it has ever been. -- crime in

:59:12.:59:23.

London. Figures were down 50% in the last decade. The fact remains crime

:59:24.:59:29.

is falling in London, it is now at a record low in my area is that is

:59:30.:59:35.

good news for local people. There is a population rise going on, and

:59:36.:59:39.

obviously one has to recognise the good work done by local community

:59:40.:59:45.

policing in trying to bring about a safer and more secure society.

:59:46.:59:49.

Obviously nobody wants crime to rise but there are a lot of social

:59:50.:59:54.

reasons why it is at the level it is in London and I think we need to

:59:55.:59:58.

address issues of violent crime, address issues of numbers of young

:59:59.:00:03.

people that don't have enough to do. The final word, not some of the

:00:04.:00:09.

turmoil perhaps with afflicting the Metropolitan police over the last

:00:10.:00:12.

few years affecting their effectiveness? No, I think the Met

:00:13.:00:19.

has been very effective. I see them in my constituency being affected

:00:20.:00:24.

and today I had a chat with the Mets about the record low in my

:00:25.:00:28.

constituency, very pleased. Andrew, back to you.

:00:29.:00:42.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this

:00:43.:00:45.

week he's been outdoing himself. He was hit over the head with a placard

:00:46.:00:49.

by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with

:00:50.:00:51.

children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning

:00:52.:00:59.

handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's

:01:00.:01:02.

own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story

:01:03.:01:06.

that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that

:01:07.:01:10.

flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a

:01:11.:01:14.

moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all

:01:15.:01:23.

areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."

:01:24.:01:26.

You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip

:01:27.:01:32.

councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill. The

:01:33.:01:38.

old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though

:01:39.:01:44.

he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How

:01:45.:01:50.

quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are

:01:51.:01:58.

occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour

:01:59.:02:04.

councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,

:02:05.:02:09.

and said his real mother was a 9 foot green alien. And in Wales a

:02:10.:02:17.

councillor thinking about heading off for the

:02:18.:02:26.

slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after

:02:27.:02:34.

Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.

:02:35.:02:40.

Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for

:02:41.:02:45.

hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising

:02:46.:02:50.

ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise

:02:51.:02:57.

light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no

:02:58.:03:02.

chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the

:03:03.:03:07.

Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that

:03:08.:03:11.

had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it

:03:12.:03:16.

is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,

:03:17.:03:22.

that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an

:03:23.:03:27.

excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It

:03:28.:03:33.

shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.

:03:34.:03:37.

Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The

:03:38.:03:42.

establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a

:03:43.:03:45.

waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of

:03:46.:03:52.

person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage

:03:53.:03:57.

on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they

:03:58.:04:00.

flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest

:04:01.:04:04.

set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any

:04:05.:04:11.

other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any

:04:12.:04:16.

other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a

:04:17.:04:22.

time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States, now

:04:23.:04:25.

almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would

:04:26.:04:30.

be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital

:04:31.:04:40.

foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why

:04:41.:04:45.

people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have

:04:46.:04:49.

handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual

:04:50.:04:55.

phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying

:04:56.:05:02.

it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious

:05:03.:05:07.

manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this

:05:08.:05:10.

image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep

:05:11.:05:17.

waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to

:05:18.:05:21.

UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if

:05:22.:05:28.

you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party, the

:05:29.:05:33.

rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to

:05:34.:05:39.

you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more

:05:40.:05:43.

authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish

:05:44.:05:49.

second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the

:05:50.:05:54.

poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as

:05:55.:05:57.

Labour versus the Conservatives. The electorate will have their fun in

:05:58.:06:01.

May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection

:06:02.:06:08.

is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the

:06:09.:06:16.

Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham

:06:17.:06:20.

Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules

:06:21.:06:25.

well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr

:06:26.:06:29.

Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David

:06:30.:06:36.

Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is

:06:37.:06:41.

the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of

:06:42.:06:46.

the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting

:06:47.:06:53.

the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I

:06:54.:07:05.

like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.

:07:06.:07:14.

I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the

:07:15.:07:18.

phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted

:07:19.:07:24.

to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on

:07:25.:07:28.

the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't

:07:29.:07:32.

dispute anything we said on the show.

:07:33.:07:35.

Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central

:07:36.:07:38.

priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the

:07:39.:07:41.

lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,

:07:42.:07:44.

tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious

:07:45.:07:47.

programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The

:07:48.:07:54.

Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.

:07:55.:08:00.

That's why we are announcing a ?23 billion package for 165,000 new

:08:01.:08:05.

affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing

:08:06.:08:10.

associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway

:08:11.:08:15.

through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already

:08:16.:08:19.

coming out of the ground, so we've made real progress on that. So,

:08:20.:08:26.

165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.

:08:27.:08:31.

Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's

:08:32.:08:35.

commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The

:08:36.:08:41.

problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already

:08:42.:08:46.

have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning

:08:47.:08:48.

regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond

:08:49.:08:53.

Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral.

:08:54.:08:58.

That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think

:08:59.:09:03.

we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's

:09:04.:09:11.

dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,

:09:12.:09:15.

which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George

:09:16.:09:20.

Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the

:09:21.:09:25.

Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen

:09:26.:09:31.

to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do

:09:32.:09:37.

radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can

:09:38.:09:41.

tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken

:09:42.:09:44.

place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk

:09:45.:09:48.

about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities

:09:49.:09:53.

argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to

:09:54.:09:57.

agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they

:09:58.:10:00.

are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of

:10:01.:10:06.

what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are

:10:07.:10:11.

already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing

:10:12.:10:17.

stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if

:10:18.:10:20.

you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning

:10:21.:10:25.

promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard

:10:26.:10:29.

place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is

:10:30.:10:34.

growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake

:10:35.:10:39.

Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If

:10:40.:10:42.

that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower

:10:43.:10:47.

Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of

:10:48.:10:53.

dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected

:10:54.:10:57.

by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young

:10:58.:11:03.

Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the

:11:04.:11:08.

garden cities project is interesting, because they finance

:11:09.:11:12.

themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million

:11:13.:11:17.

an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the

:11:18.:11:23.

greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities

:11:24.:11:29.

today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've

:11:30.:11:34.

read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and

:11:35.:11:38.

they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing

:11:39.:11:42.

theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist

:11:43.:11:47.

interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.

:11:48.:11:52.

Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put

:11:53.:11:57.

on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big

:11:58.:12:02.

split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular

:12:03.:12:07.

policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say

:12:08.:12:11.

50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the

:12:12.:12:15.

Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular

:12:16.:12:19.

but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract

:12:20.:12:24.

active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into

:12:25.:12:27.

power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.

:12:28.:12:32.

The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do

:12:33.:12:36.

that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls

:12:37.:12:40.

would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the

:12:41.:12:46.

key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and

:12:47.:12:51.

how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more

:12:52.:12:55.

than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk

:12:56.:12:59.

about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of

:13:00.:13:04.

Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education

:13:05.:13:07.

Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting

:13:08.:13:11.

blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind

:13:12.:13:15.

the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think

:13:16.:13:19.

we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you

:13:20.:13:24.

are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on

:13:25.:13:27.

today. That's all for today. Thanks to all

:13:28.:13:31.

my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,

:13:32.:13:34.

and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the

:13:35.:13:36.

Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers,

:13:37.:14:14.

is now at war with Germany This would be the first

:14:15.:14:22.

truly modern war. and resolve of entire populations

:14:23.:14:32.

against each other.

:14:33.:14:37.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS