Browse content similar to 06/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week. | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head. | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about. | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future. | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling, | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
In the capital this week - how to get east London moving. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
The Mayor and his transport bosses are beginning yet another | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political | :01:22. | :01:35. | |
journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt, | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal. | :01:39. | :01:52. | |
The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring. | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this. | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea. | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the | :04:04. | :04:04. | |
United States making the allegations lives in the | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem | :04:11. | :04:10. | |
for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime | :04:22. | :04:21. | |
inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the | :04:22. | :04:35. | |
dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after | :04:56. | :04:55. | |
that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require | :05:04. | :05:03. | |
resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
in what a public inquiry can do I wonder whether there is another | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry, | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers - | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
level for more than five years. So why is there still talk | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
of austerity The deficit is coming down but much | :06:04. | :06:05. | |
more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits - | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period, | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay | :07:02. | :07:20. | |
squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20 | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010, | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
the top than we did before 2010 partly because we have encouraged | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country, | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour | :11:45. | :11:53. | |
compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers. | :12:07. | :12:15. | |
They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
be in surplus. It is testament... be in surplus. It is testament. . | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018? | :13:07. | :13:15. | |
Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite | :14:00. | :14:10. | |
and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true? | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much. | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
"Should Scotland be an independent country?" | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum | :14:53. | :14:54. | |
If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no". | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls | :14:59. | :15:00. | |
told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence. | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a | :15:08. | :15:28. | |
generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
proposition so there is history here and these three parties have | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
Scotland get these extra powers? vote no to independence, when will | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
Scotland get these extra powers I would imagine that in the general | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
more powers, they want a complete break. You cannot say that if | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs. | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
members of the UK with representation in the House of | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to | :19:10. | :19:19. | |
make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment. | :19:28. | :19:40. | |
You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
we are applying to get into something that is established, it | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed, | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union. | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of | :20:54. | :21:04. | |
people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case. | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so | :21:37. | :21:46. | |
they win either way. There is a world of difference between | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
There is a world of difference between that and making a break | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account? | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true. | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book | :23:28. | :23:42. | |
you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon | :24:47. | :24:54. | |
next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been | :25:10. | :25:18. | |
asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister | :25:19. | :25:33. | |
on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
results in the local and European elections so what can the party do | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
support? It is a massive problem because those are the building | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming | :26:23. | :26:31. | |
Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
itself to win back support? Let's does the party need to position | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
next election because if we don t next election because if we don't | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
people will vote for the Tories Nick, what do you think of the | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
party's message at the moment? I have had a look at early draft of | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
our manifesto and there is some good stuff in there but the authors are | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
probably too interested in what may think we have achieved in the last | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
five years and not really focusing on what the voters will want to be | :27:40. | :28:09. | |
hearing about the next five years. Perhaps they should get out more and | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
test some of these messages on the doorstep. So you want to see the top | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
ranks of the party on the doorstep. Gareth online one also wants to make | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
a point about the manifesto. There is clearly a problem somewhere near | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
the top and there are some people who seem to be obsessed with power | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
for power's sake, and happy with a timid offer but the Liberal | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
Democrats want to change things. We are running out of time so let's try | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
to squeeze one more call in. What are your thoughts on the long-term | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
future of the party? I think serious long-term danger is that the party | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
could be relegated to the fringes of the UK and no longer being a | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
national party. We have gone back decades if that happens because for | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
many years we have been represented in every part of the country at some | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
level and we have got to rescue ourselves from that. Some | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
interesting views but we are going to have to wait until the general | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
election next year to find out how well the Lib Dems face up to these | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
challenges. Thanks for listening, we are going to finish with an old | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
classic now. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
Nick Clegg, welcome to the programme. I want to come onto your | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
situation in a minute but as you will have seen in the papers, there | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
is mounting concern over and historic Westminster paedophile | :29:26. | :29:27. | |
ring, and files relating to it mysteriously disappearing. Why are | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
you against a full public enquiry into this? I wouldn't rule anything | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
out. I think we should do anything it takes to uncover this and achieve | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
justice. delivered, even all these many years | :29:42. | :30:01. | |
later. How do you do it? There is an inquiry in the Home Office about | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
what's happened to these documents, serious questions need to be asked | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
about what happened in the Home Office and those questions need to | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
be answered. There are inquiries in the BBC, in the NHS and most | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
importantly of all the police are looking into the places where this | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
abuse was alleged to have taken place. All I would say is, let's | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
make sure that justice is delivered, truth is uncovered and I think that | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
the way to do that, as we have seen, is by allowing the police to get on | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
with their work. You say that, but there are only seven police involved | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
in this inquiry. There are 195 involved in the hacking | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
investigations. We can both agree that child abuse is more important | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
and serious than hacking. The Home Office, there are reports that Home | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
Office officials may have been mentioned in the dossier, people | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
don't trust people to investigate themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
that we need to make sure that - and that we need to make sure that and | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
the police need to make sure that the police investigations are | :31:05. | :31:05. | |
thorough, well resourced. I can't thorough, well resourced. I can t | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
think of anything more horrendous, I can't, than powerful people | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
organising themselves and worse still, this is what is alleged, | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
covering up for each other to abuse the most vulnerable people in | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
society's care - children. But at the end of the day, the only way you | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
can get people in the dock, the only way you can get people charged, is | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
by allowing the prosecuting authorities and the police to do | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
their job. I have an open mind about what other inquiries take place A | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
number of other inquiries are taking place. I assume any additional | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
inquiries wouldn't be able to second guess or look into the matters which | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
the police are looking into already. All I would say is that people who | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
have information, who want to provide information which they think | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
is relevant to this, please get in touch with the police. Alright. | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
Let's come on to our own inquiry into the state of the Lib Dems. You | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
have attempted to distance yourself and the party from the Tories, but | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
still stay in Government - it is called aggressive differentiation. | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
Why isn't it working? It's not called aggressive differentiation. | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
It is called "coalition". It is two parties who retain different | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
identities, different values, have different aspirations for the | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
future. But during this Parliament have come together because we were | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
facing a unique national emergency back in 2010, the economy was | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
teetering on the edge of a precipice. | :32:32. | :32:40. | |
Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the | :33:07. | :33:14. | |
recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the | :33:31. | :33:32. | |
case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK. | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a | :33:54. | :34:03. | |
constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. | :34:28. | :34:28. | |
winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It | :34:29. | :34:28. | |
Conservative and Labour parties. It is a big effort. Of course, there | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
are lots of people from both left and right who want to shout us down | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
and want to vilify our role in Government. What we also need to do | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
- and Nick Harvey was quite right - having been proud of our record of | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
delivery, we also need to set out in our manifesto as we are and as we | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
will our promise of more, of more support in schools. So why is it | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
then... Why is it then that a Lib Dem MP in our own film says you are | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
in danger of no longer becoming a National Party. That could be the | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
Clegg legacy, you cease to be a National Party? I'm a practical man. | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
I believe passionately in what we have done in politics. I am so proud | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
of my party. I don't spend that much time speculating that the end might | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
be nigh. There is no point in doing that. Let's get out there, which is | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
what I do in my own constituency, in challenges circumstances and say we | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
are proud of what we have done, we have done a good thing for the | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
country, we have delivered more Liberal Democrat policies than the | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
party has ever dreamed delivering before. We have a programme of | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
change, of reform, of liberal reform, which is very exciting. Just | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
over the last few weeks, I have been setting out our plans to provide | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
more help to carers, to make sure teachers in every classroom are | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
properly qualified, that all kids in school are being taught a proper | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
core curriculum. That parts company from the ideological rigidities with | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
which the Conservatives deal with education policy. Those are thing | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
which speak to many of the values that people who support us... | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
Alright. When Mike Storey gets out and about, he told this programme | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
two weeks' ago that he finds that you "are toxic on the doorstep". | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
good reason for that. They didn t good reason for that. They didn't | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
win the election. The left say that somehow we have lost our soul when | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
we haven't. That happens day in day out. Of course that will have some | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
effect. My answer to that is not to buckle to those criticisms, those | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
misplaced Chris -- criticisms from left and right, but to stand up | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change? | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
did. We want an in-out referendum. With ve legislated for the trigger | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
European Union. That is what we have said for years. We legislated for | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
that... So no change? No change. Alright. We are expecting a | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
reshuffle shortly. Will you keep Vince Cable as Business Secretary to | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
the election? I'm immensely proud of what Vince has done. Yes, I intend | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
to make sure that Vince continues to serve in the Government in his | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
present capacity Look what he has done on apprenticeships, he's done | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
more than many people for many years to make sure we build-up | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
manufacturing, the north here, not just the south. I'm proud of what | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
he's done. We have talked about some heavy things. We know you have got | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
into kickboxing. Is there any danger of you becoming a mammal - you know | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
what I mean - a middle-aged man in Lycra! Will the Tour de France | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
influence you? Absolutely no risk of that whatsoever having seen the Tour | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
de France start yesterday near Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
sign on my pullover. I will see them later whisk through my constituency. | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
I will not try to emulate them. I'm sure that is to the relief of a | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
grateful nation. Thank you. It's just gone 11.35, you're | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:09. | :39:10. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. | :39:11. | :39:12. | |
First though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
This week we're working out how best to cross the river. | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
When is East London going to get what west London has? | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
Here today are Gavin Barwell, Conservative MP for Croydon Central, | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
and Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North. | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
First though to more race troubles for the Metropolitan Police. | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
And an employment tribunal finding against the force. | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
Firearms officer Carol Howard was the victim of sexual and racial | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
But it emerged that references to discrimination were removed | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
from the original internal Met report into her grievances. | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
The Met commissioner said that was on legal advice. | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
And on the discrimination itself, that it was the action | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
It does do further damage? It is so important in a city like London with | :40:06. | :40:22. | |
such a diverse population. I think to be fair to the current | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
Commissioner, he understands that and I think he is making changes to | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
try and build that confidence, but cases like this don't help do that. | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
The thing that emerged which the tribunal alighted on, when it came | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
to the internal report, they had to remove those references. That seems | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
a cover-up, but does it not, when you think about it, make sense | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
legally if this is then going to go to a tribunal that you are weakening | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
your case? I think you have put your finger on it. You can see legally | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
why they got that advice. It doesn't look good in terms of public | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
opinion. Do you think the Metropolitan Police should put | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
everything out there on every internal documentation if it is | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
going to damage them? It is quite tough to say that for all documents | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
because I don't know what the legal advice was. Clearly, the problem | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
they have is this doesn't appear to be open and transparent. It comes on | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
top of a long history going back to the beginnings of Stephen Lawrence, | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
if not before, of concerns over how the Met is handling race. I | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
understand there are 34 other cases of discrimination that have been | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
settled. I think the GLA have referred this to the Mayor to look | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
at those cases. When you see something like this, how do you | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
think it helps the drive and recruitment for more black and | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
ethnic minority officers? I work very closely with the Black Police | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
Association and I know that part of their concern is that even now, I | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
think Gavin is right, the Commissioner is trying to make | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
progress. We only have 10% of London's police service who are | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
black and ethnic minority in a city where half of the city are black and | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
ethnic minority and that can't be good. The Met does want to see a | :42:16. | :42:25. | |
more diverse police service. Does it make it less likely your | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
constituents will come forward and say I want to be part of that force? | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
I hope not. There are lots of great officers that do a really good job | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
for our communities who want the Met to change and it doesn't help them | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
in terms of the good work that they are doing. | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
120 years ago this week, Tower Bridge was completed. | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
But to the east of it London is short of crossings. Very short. | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
Transport for London is now beginning yet another public | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
consultation on what should be built. | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
This week Tower Bridge celebrated its 120th anniversary. | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
In the intervening century and a bit, London hasn't done | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
Now, to the west of Tower Bridge there are 22 bridges | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
If you look east, it's a completely different story, | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
you have to leave London and go to Dartford until you see another | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
Instead, East London has two tunnels - Blackwell and Rotherhithe | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
NEWSREEL: The idea is to have nine arterial roads for fast traffic | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
Another road crossing in the east has been on the cards for 70 years. | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
The first serious attempt to build the bridge at Gallions Reach was | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
thwarted by local opposition as it would have meant the | :43:48. | :43:49. | |
destruction of historic woodlands. | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
A plan came back under Ken Livingstone, but was scrapped again, | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
This week the London Chamber of Commerce released this image | :43:56. | :44:04. | |
of an East London crossing on the same spot. | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
We all know we can build bridges, it's often the planning | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
and consultation process which is difficult. That is why | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
what we have been keen to do is emphasise the benefits that this | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
Transport for London agree. And tomorrow are launching something | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
like the tenth public consultation on building a bridge here at | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
Gallions Reach - the same place planners have consistently failed to | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
Now, in a similar period of time we have managed to | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
completely change London's skyline, build the M25, throw up the Olympic | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
So why have we not managed to build a bridge that goes | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
Another piece of infrastructure that we have | :44:43. | :44:51. | |
On it, I asked one of the bridge's biggest opponents why Gallions | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
The bridge on the south side touches down at Gallions Reach. | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
The traffic that would be flowing over the bridge would be going up | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
There would be ten times the volume of traffic that's there now and the | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
roads struggle with the volume that there is now. | :45:13. | :45:14. | |
One of the routes it would have take is up a narrow country | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
track called Knee Hill where two cars have trouble passing. When you | :45:18. | :45:19. | |
are sending articulated lorries and lots more volume of other traffic, | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
Transport for London say this time will be different | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
as they are trying to build more than just the one crossing. | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
Historically, we were promoting one crossing, | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
crossing in the vicinity of the Gallions Reach and the | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
original oproposal. We are promoting a series of crossings now. | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
People do want a series of crossings. That will spread the load | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
and dilute people's concerns about the environment. | :45:45. | :45:46. | |
However the consultation on East London bridges | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
goes, it is very likely that the next bridge the capital sees will be | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
this, the garden bridge in Central London, conceived of and organised | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
Construction is expected to start next year. | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
When you are putting a pedestrian bridge in, people | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
aren't so concerned about attracting more pedestrians to an area. | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
When you put a bridge in that vehicles with four wheels | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
can go on, people get concerned about it because they think you will | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
Along with being less contentious, the garden bridge is largely | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
privately funded and goes across a narrower part of the Thames. | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
Perhaps all reasons why building bridges is some | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
discussion with Joanna Lumley and Lord Adonis, former Transport | :46:27. | :46:48. | |
Secretary. You have been doing work on east London crossings for a think | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
tank. Would you reinstate the Thames Gate Bridge which Boris Johnson | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
rejected? Definitely. There was growing issues to do with how you | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
would handle traffic coming from the south but the case for the bridge in | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
terms of economic development is overwhelmingly strong and that is | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
now generally recognised. The piece of work I am doing will reinforce | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
the argument for that. Same place, broadly the same kind of offer that | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
was their five or six years ago? Similar but you need to work out how | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
you can best handle the traffic coming from the south so there is an | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
issue there, but without the bridge you will not get the degree of | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
economic development and in particular housing that is so | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
desperately needed... What would be the issue on the south? You are | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
pinpointing the issues about existing very narrow roads, what do | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
you do about it? Widen roads? Get rid of woodlands? You could also | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
tunnel more, so there are different options for handling the traffic and | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
they need to be options for things that would happen rather than | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
obstacles to building the bridge and giving this essential new economic | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
generator that is required. We often get stuck seeing the problems rather | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
than working through the solutions. Those bridges west of Tower Bridge, | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
can you imagine the life of London if we only had half of them? We talk | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
about east London as a massive growth corridor, and yet the biggest | :48:33. | :48:40. | |
obstacle holding back the development is the fact you cannot | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
get across the Thames. If Boris Johnson have not made that | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
decision, would you have built it? The bridge would have been opening | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
this year. I think it was a mistake to have cancelled it. All of the | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
money was there, there was overwhelming support from the local | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
authority is engaged. In this issue of Bexley, in the last Transport for | :49:10. | :49:18. | |
London consultation a majority of respondents in Bexley backed the | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
bridge. They would have backed it even if it had gone straight into | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
the existing road system without further changes. The economic | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
benefit north and south of the river is vital. You have got all of the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
massive housing developments in Barking which are proposed. In | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
Transport for London's own assessment of what is holding that | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
development, the absence of a Thames crossing is the biggest single | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
factor so we have to sort this out. It is not a party political thing, | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
it goes into the classic divide of action and inaction. Let's get you | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
on that for a moment, what do you think when you hear that? I think | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
there should be three or four river crossings, it is vitally important. | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
If you cannot get across the Thames, you either get stuck in one of those | :50:14. | :50:28. | |
tunnels, or you have got to clog up London fighting your way across | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
There were plans in 2008. Yes, I remember plans covering half a mile | :50:35. | :50:46. | |
of the river. Why are they not built? There is no comparison. The | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
truth is that ours is a different bridge, it is for pedestrians and it | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
is different thing than for articulated lorries, and the | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
distance we have got. As the Thames widens out, it is huge and I think | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
maybe a lot of the will goes when we see how much money because I don't | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
know how much it was going to cost originally? In the vicinity of 500 | :51:16. | :51:16. | |
originally? In the vicinity of 00 million. I want to bring Gavin in | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
very quickly, you are a London MP. It could have been built by now but | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
for the decision Boris Johnson made. What do you think about that? It | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
looks like he is now thinking that we do need one after all. I think | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
Andrew's divide is right, I think if we look at the issues we face as | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
London MPs they are nearly all symptoms of the success London is | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
having. I think this is a better potential plan, both because it is | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
looking at several crossings and it is important to address the issues | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
around the connection. Would you accept, be honest and say, it is a | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
pity we didn't act in 2008? It is certainly a pity we didn't have the | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
right solution but this looks like a better solution with a connection at | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
the southern end of the bridge. Which would be more important to | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
your constituents, a garden bridge... That is not quite fair! In | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
terms of long-term decisions, the crossings further down are | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
important. I don't really think it is a question of one or the other. | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
He might have said he doesn't like your garden bridge! Let's talk about | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
that for a moment, you were involved right at the beginning. Why? It was | :52:44. | :52:53. | |
my idea. Where did it come from? Because I love gardens and I love | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
bridges, I used to draw them when I was younger. I came to London late | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
in life when I was 18 and fell in love with the city. Everything that | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
makes London more lovely, I adore. Were you trying to get it off the | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
ground before the millennium Bridge? Yes, the idea was put in for the | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
competition for what would be the memorial for the Princess of Wales | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
when she died and it was pipped to the post by what they have now. We | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
had the Transport for London saying it is much easier when you look in | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
terms of pedestrians, but what about the cost? Two thirds from the | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
Government or the mayor? No, the bridge is going to cost 275 million, | :53:42. | :53:49. | |
the Government gave us 30 million which is extremely generous. It is a | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
London thoroughfare so it gave us another 30, we have a lot of VAT to | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
pay. The rest is donations from the public which we haven't gone to yet. | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
You will do that when you have a final set of plans. You're planning | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
application has to be ticked off. We know the financial issues around | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
these bridges, why should there be any public money going into a bridge | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
like this, which might by comparison be seen as a vanity project, | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
something that enhances the capital. For whom? In terms of the | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
capital's feeling for itself. Do you think public money should be going | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
into that? We have seen the shortage of transport facilities. I don't No, | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
I'm not sure it would be right to have it entirely private money. | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
London belongs to Londoners, we pay our taxes. You are talking as if we | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
are stealing it from something. No, asking the question because we know | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
that private money has to be involved in almost everything. With | :55:02. | :55:16. | |
the PFI as well... What would your plan B? It is going to be a big | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
cultural attraction bringing big revenues. 5.5 million visitors to | :55:24. | :55:32. | |
the Tate modern last year and that institution didn't exist 14 years | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
ago. It will be the same with Joanna's bridge, it will be one of | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
the reasons people come to London. Karen, do you agree with that? Do | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
you have an issue where there are limited public funds, where do they | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
go? You are never going to make totally optimum decisions on this | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
because you would only end up building one crossing and no other | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
transport elsewhere in the capital so I think it is right that | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
investment capital is the key to unlocking growth. I think it is | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
right there should be a partnership in terms of funding something like | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
the garden bridge because if you look at New York and what they have | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
done with their elevated railways, it is a fantastic announcement of | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
the city. Give me an idea of how you would like it to feel. I think | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
quiet, I love the river and the difficulty is that wherever you | :56:35. | :56:36. | |
cross the river... I difficulty is that wherever you | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
bridges, I am not saying it will be better but it | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
completely quiet. The millennium Bridge is quiet but it is like a | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
knife, completely straight. What are the issues going to be about getting | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
it passed the planners? I will not touch wood because there is none in | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
the studio, that is cruel. It seems that our planning application will | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
go through successfully. It has been approved by everybody because we | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
have spoken to the bowlers on both sides and everybody has had their | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
import and so on. -- spoken to be London boroughs. I want to come back | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
to this money thing because I pay my taxes properly and every single | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
penny I should pay so that this country can develop. I don't mind | :57:27. | :57:39. | |
that they employ MPs to be our voices. I don't think I want to be | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
the person to say, I don't think you should allow money to go here or | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
there. That is not my job. A guarantee here that will a Labour | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
government from next year, that river crossing with some private | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
finance arrangement will be right back on the table and work can go | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
straight away? Labour would go ahead with it. Without it, we won't get | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
the housing, the economic development and the opening up of | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
the Thames Gateway we need to seek, but we also need Joanna's bridge, it | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
is visionary. There are so many bridges, we cannot talk about them | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
any more. Now it is time for the rest of this week's political news | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
in 60 seconds. From today Londoners will no longer | :58:28. | :58:46. | |
be able to pay for their bus journeys using cash. Only Oyster | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
Cards, Travelcards, Freedom Passes and contactless payments will be | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
accepted. Transport for London claim a tiny fraction of journeys are paid | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
for using cash. Golf courses take up 1% | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
of the land in the UK. It could be better used to provide | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
homes, says Green Assembly Member Jenny Jones. She argues that golf | :59:01. | :59:02. | |
courses could limit the building of Department for Education statistics | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
show disadvantaged pupils in Inner London are more likely to | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
go to university than much better off youngsters outside the capital | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
with 63% of poor pupils in London's schools and colleges progressing | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
into higher education. A review by the Electoral Commission | :59:16. | :59:17. | |
into vote counting for the local and European elections in Tower Hamlets | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
has found the management of the count was inadequate. The final ward | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
results were not declared until 27th May, five days after votes | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
were cast. Karen, cashless buses, sensible now? | :59:27. | :59:43. | |
Broadly but I do worry about what will happen to the tourists, the | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
people who are not necessarily following this. I worry about what | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
will happen to people late at night who don't have their Oyster card and | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
will get kicked off. Because we are moving towards fewer laughing and | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
good staffing levels at stations as well, it feels it is a sensible way | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
to proceed but you do need to make sure there is a proper backstop in | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
well, it feels it is a sensible way to proceed but you do need to terms | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
of service systems to help struggling people. This will | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
backfire badly if of 16-year-old girl is toned down and rejected, | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
what safeguards are there? There is a good pilot that Transport for | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
London have been planning which is that if you don't have your Oyster | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
card, you can have one extra journey so you can still get the bus home. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
The word discretionary was in there. No, you get one extra journey and | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
with that safeguard, that is the sensible way. What about Oyster | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
cards that have been damaged or lost? I agree with Karen, there are | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
points of detail around how those situations will work but overall, I | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
think ten years ago 20% of people were paying in cash, it is now under | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
1%. They have got to find ways of delivering the service while saving | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
money. Quickly, recognition for what Labour did... Poor students are | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
outperforming other poor students elsewhere in the country. The | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Academy programme that Andrew and Tony Blair started was one of the | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
best things the Labour government did and Michael Gove and the Tory | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
government is taking that forward. In Wales where they are resisting | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
the programme, the evidence is really compelling. The thing is | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
about what the Conservatives have done is that they have taken the | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Academy programme and Labour reforms that Labour did in to their logical | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
conclusion and make them better. conclusion and make them better | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
Funnily enough and introduced chaos and waste, but the critical thing is | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
that although the academies in the most deprived areas were a great | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
success, and I have a number of them and I am delighted with them, the | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
research indicates that most of the progress in London was being made | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
you. What will Thursday's mass | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt | :02:26. | :02:48. | |
Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed, | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem. | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a -- | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third. | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal | :04:19. | :04:27. | |
for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one. | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At | :04:51. | :04:52. | |
strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there, | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some | :05:50. | :05:58. | |
politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were | :06:51. | :07:02. | |
trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
of it! If the most recent polls are to be | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' - | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
contingent to Strasbourg for the first session | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to | :07:36. | :07:55. | |
say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50 | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
will be covering more of the European Parliament at last! | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives. | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat - | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP. | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is | :08:32. | :08:42. | |
probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have | :10:29. | :10:37. | |
full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true, | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True. | :11:05. | :11:05. | |
his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically | :11:14. | :11:25. | |
and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005 | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round. | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that. | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different - | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South. | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs, | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge. | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:39. | :13:45. |