06/07/2014 Sunday Politics London


06/07/2014

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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:35.:00:41.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.

:00:42.:00:44.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:45.:00:46.

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

:00:47.:00:52.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:53.:00:55.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:56.:00:59.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:01:00.:01:01.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:02.:01:08.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:09.:01:11.

In the capital this week - how to get east London moving.

:01:12.:01:18.

The Mayor and his transport bosses are beginning yet another

:01:19.:01:21.

And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political

:01:22.:01:35.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:36.:01:38.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:39.:01:52.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:53.:01:54.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:55.:01:58.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:59.:02:00.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:01.:02:02.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:03.:02:05.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:06.:02:10.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

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the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:16.:02:20.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:21.:02:26.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:27.:02:30.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:31.:02:34.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:35.:02:37.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

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order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:43.:02:47.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

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tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:51.:02:55.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:56.:03:00.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:01.:03:03.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:04.:03:07.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:08.:03:12.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:13.:03:16.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:17.:03:20.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:21.:03:24.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:25.:03:28.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

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Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:36.:03:38.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:39.:03:41.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:42.:03:46.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:47.:03:50.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:51.:03:54.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

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police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:58.:04:03.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:04.

United States making the allegations lives in the

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been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

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would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

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for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:11.:04:17.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:18.:04:21.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

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inrequest -- that inquiry took 2 years to report. The problem is the

:04:22.:04:35.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

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keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

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is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:44.:04:51.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

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inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

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that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:56.:05:03.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:04.:05:03.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

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case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

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we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

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in what a public inquiry can do I wonder whether there is another

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example of a country that goes through this stale ritual every few

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years of a scandal emerging, the opposition calling for an inquiry,

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the Government saying no and then holding the line or giving in. I

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don't know what we think this inquiries can do. It comes back to

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your point, Helen, you should be careful what you call an inquiry on

:05:35.:05:37.

so it doesn't devalue the concept. On Thursday up to a million public

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sector workers - including teachers, firemen and council workers -

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will go on strike. Their unions have differing gripes

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but the fact they're all striking on the same day is designed to send

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a strong message to the government. As the economy picks up again

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they're demanding an end Growth has returned strongly to

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the UK economy and unemployment is at its lowest

:05:54.:06:00.

level for more than five years. So why is there still talk

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of austerity The deficit is coming down but much

:06:04.:06:05.

more slowly than the government And accumulated deficits -

:06:06.:06:10.

the national debt - The UK is now in hock to the tune

:06:11.:06:18.

of ?1.3 trillion - and rising. In fact, we're only 40% of the way

:06:19.:06:26.

through George Osborne's planned austerity, with the chancellor now

:06:27.:06:30.

saying he won't manage to balance Unions are now rebelling

:06:31.:06:33.

against tight pay controls. Since 2010, average public sector

:06:34.:06:39.

pay, which goes to about 1 in 5 Over the same period,

:06:40.:06:43.

prices increased by 16% - meaning the average public sector

:06:44.:06:50.

worker saw their pay squeezed Going head-to-head on the public

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sector strikes and austerity - the general secretary of the TUC

:06:54.:07:01.

Frances O'Grady, and Conservative We have seen it, public sector pay

:07:02.:07:20.

squeezed by 9% under the Coalition Government. Isn't it time to take

:07:21.:07:26.

your foot off the brake a bit? I don't think it is the right time to

:07:27.:07:32.

let go of the public finances at all. We were always clear that this

:07:33.:07:36.

is what's called a structural deficit, it doesn't go away just

:07:37.:07:40.

because the growth is returning and the economy is coming back. We have

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protected and are protecting the lowest paid public sector workers

:07:47.:07:52.

who weren't part of the pay freeze and now pay going up by 1%. These

:07:53.:07:56.

are difficult decisions. We have had that discussion many times. They are

:07:57.:08:02.

necessary in order to keep that plan on track and as we can see in the

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wider economy, it is working. People's living standards will have

:08:08.:08:09.

to continue to fall if you are in the public sector? We need to keep

:08:10.:08:14.

public spending under control and pay restraint is one of the main

:08:15.:08:18.

ways of being able... The answer is yes? The answer is this is

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necessary. The answer is yes, this is necessary. It isn't because we

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want to. We have to. This strike isn't going to change the

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Government's mind, is it? It does seem like the Government isn't

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listening. We have had years... They are listening, they just don't

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agree. Ordinary people, including those in the public sector, are

:08:37.:08:38.

finding it really tough. What really sticks in the throat is the idea

:08:39.:08:44.

that money can be found to give tax cuts to billionaires, to

:08:45.:08:47.

millionaires and to big corporations. But it can't be found

:08:48.:08:55.

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

:08:56.:08:59.

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the living

:09:00.:09:03.

wage. What do you say to that? We have protected those who are the

:09:04.:09:06.

least well-paid in the public sector. But this is about a

:09:07.:09:11.

long-term... How can you? Hold on. You have said you have protected

:09:12.:09:15.

them. This involves ordinary people, many watching this programme, they

:09:16.:09:20.

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

:09:21.:09:27.

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in

:09:28.:09:30.

costs up 16%, running a car 11% in what way have you protected people

:09:31.:09:36.

from spending they have to make Firstly, you read out the average

:09:37.:09:41.

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

:09:42.:09:44.

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

:09:45.:09:49.

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

:09:50.:09:53.

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

:09:54.:09:57.

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

:09:58.:10:01.

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

:10:02.:10:05.

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

:10:06.:10:10.

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

:10:11.:10:13.

the top than we did before 2010 partly because we have encouraged

:10:14.:10:18.

them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we

:10:19.:10:23.

get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we

:10:24.:10:28.

get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you

:10:29.:10:31.

could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage

:10:32.:10:35.

through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being

:10:36.:10:41.

above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,

:10:42.:10:47.

?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But

:10:48.:10:56.

not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much

:10:57.:11:01.

as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something

:11:02.:11:03.

I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum

:11:04.:11:08.

wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the

:11:09.:11:15.

impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while

:11:16.:11:21.

among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more

:11:22.:11:28.

than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according

:11:29.:11:35.

to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at

:11:36.:11:38.

the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are

:11:39.:11:44.

worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour

:11:45.:11:53.

compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the

:11:54.:11:57.

kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They

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are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be

:12:01.:12:06.

better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.

:12:07.:12:15.

They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is

:12:16.:12:19.

worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole

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disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are

:12:24.:12:26.

against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what

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firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are

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protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government

:12:36.:12:39.

is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having

:12:40.:12:43.

cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the

:12:44.:12:48.

public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a

:12:49.:12:52.

Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books

:12:53.:12:58.

balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to

:12:59.:13:01.

be in surplus. It is testament... be in surplus. It is testament. .

:13:02.:13:06.

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

:13:07.:13:15.

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

:13:16.:13:19.

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

:13:20.:13:23.

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

:13:24.:13:26.

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

:13:27.:13:30.

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

:13:31.:13:33.

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

:13:34.:13:39.

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

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about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

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service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

:13:53.:13:59.

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

:14:00.:14:10.

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

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final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

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this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

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on Sunday today that Mr Cameron s on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

:14:23.:14:28.

planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?

:14:29.:14:33.

Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going

:14:34.:14:37.

to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The

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Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the

:14:42.:14:45.

electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much.

:14:46.:14:49.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

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That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum

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If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no".

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But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls

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told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a

:15:01.:15:02.

Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence.

:15:03.:15:07.

is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a

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generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive

:15:29.:15:33.

result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our

:15:34.:15:37.

arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in

:15:38.:15:43.

figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it

:15:44.:15:50.

and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland

:15:51.:15:54.

has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am

:15:55.:15:59.

not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If

:16:00.:16:04.

you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims

:16:05.:16:09.

that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if

:16:10.:16:15.

it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the

:16:16.:16:19.

Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no

:16:20.:16:25.

timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can

:16:26.:16:31.

remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of

:16:32.:16:38.

additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and

:16:39.:16:43.

transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and

:16:44.:16:47.

welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and

:16:48.:16:55.

2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but

:16:56.:16:59.

they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation

:17:00.:17:04.

to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the

:17:05.:17:12.

devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single

:17:13.:17:15.

proposition so there is history here and these three parties have

:17:16.:17:19.

delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will

:17:20.:17:25.

stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will

:17:26.:17:28.

Scotland get these extra powers? vote no to independence, when will

:17:29.:17:30.

Scotland get these extra powers I would imagine that in the general

:17:31.:17:33.

election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you

:17:34.:17:39.

would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that

:17:40.:17:42.

follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties

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have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that

:17:49.:17:55.

they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the

:17:56.:17:58.

same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we

:17:59.:18:06.

delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these

:18:07.:18:09.

discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in

:18:10.:18:13.

more powers, they want a complete break. You cannot say that if

:18:14.:18:17.

Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in

:18:18.:18:23.

Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs.

:18:24.:18:30.

If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in

:18:31.:18:36.

September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and

:18:37.:18:41.

whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full

:18:42.:18:44.

members of the UK with representation in the House of

:18:45.:18:48.

Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a

:18:49.:18:52.

critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of

:18:53.:19:00.

power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we

:19:01.:19:04.

don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the

:19:05.:19:09.

downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to

:19:10.:19:19.

make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's

:19:20.:19:27.

thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment.

:19:28.:19:40.

You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union

:19:41.:19:45.

given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I

:19:46.:19:52.

don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The

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big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and

:19:57.:20:00.

we are applying to get into something that is established, it

:20:01.:20:05.

wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe

:20:06.:20:10.

would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be

:20:11.:20:15.

big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms

:20:16.:20:22.

and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed,

:20:23.:20:27.

on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't

:20:28.:20:33.

want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come

:20:34.:20:38.

Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union.

:20:39.:20:43.

The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's

:20:44.:20:48.

membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the

:20:49.:20:53.

majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of

:20:54.:21:04.

people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a

:21:05.:21:09.

long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years

:21:10.:21:14.

and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win

:21:15.:21:20.

provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the

:21:21.:21:23.

European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case.

:21:24.:21:29.

Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a

:21:30.:21:36.

yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so

:21:37.:21:46.

they win either way. There is a world of difference between

:21:47.:21:49.

devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK

:21:50.:21:55.

There is a world of difference between that and making a break

:21:56.:21:59.

where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You

:22:00.:22:04.

lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same

:22:05.:22:11.

currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are

:22:12.:22:18.

entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the

:22:19.:22:24.

two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was

:22:25.:22:30.

too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account?

:22:31.:22:34.

Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would

:22:35.:22:39.

make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at

:22:40.:22:46.

our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if

:22:47.:22:50.

we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population

:22:51.:22:56.

share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but

:22:57.:23:00.

equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at

:23:01.:23:05.

the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the

:23:06.:23:08.

moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk

:23:09.:23:15.

and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a

:23:16.:23:19.

referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true.

:23:20.:23:27.

You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book

:23:28.:23:42.

you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The

:23:43.:23:50.

context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had

:23:51.:23:56.

additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing

:23:57.:24:02.

from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have

:24:03.:24:11.

humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this

:24:12.:24:16.

debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have

:24:17.:24:21.

their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far

:24:22.:24:25.

better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and

:24:26.:24:30.

alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the

:24:31.:24:36.

nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of

:24:37.:24:42.

time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's

:24:43.:24:46.

hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon

:24:47.:24:54.

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

:24:55.:24:58.

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

:24:59.:25:03.

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

:25:04.:25:09.

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

:25:10.:25:18.

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

:25:19.:25:33.

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

:25:34.:25:37.

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

:25:38.:25:41.

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

:25:42.:25:46.

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

:25:47.:25:51.

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

:25:52.:25:57.

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

:25:58.:26:01.

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

:26:02.:26:07.

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

:26:08.:26:13.

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

:26:14.:26:18.

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

:26:19.:26:22.

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

:26:23.:26:31.

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

:26:32.:26:37.

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

:26:38.:26:42.

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

:26:43.:26:47.

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

:26:48.:26:49.

itself to win back support? Let's does the party need to position

:26:50.:26:52.

itself to win back support? Let s go to Chris online free, has the party

:26:53.:26:58.

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

:26:59.:27:07.

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

:27:08.:27:10.

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

:27:11.:27:13.

next election because if we don t next election because if we don't

:27:14.:27:17.

people will vote for the Tories Nick, what do you think of the

:27:18.:27:23.

party's message at the moment? I have had a look at early draft of

:27:24.:27:29.

our manifesto and there is some good stuff in there but the authors are

:27:30.:27:33.

probably too interested in what may think we have achieved in the last

:27:34.:27:39.

five years and not really focusing on what the voters will want to be

:27:40.:28:09.

hearing about the next five years. Perhaps they should get out more and

:28:10.:28:12.

test some of these messages on the doorstep. So you want to see the top

:28:13.:28:15.

ranks of the party on the doorstep. Gareth online one also wants to make

:28:16.:28:20.

a point about the manifesto. There is clearly a problem somewhere near

:28:21.:28:24.

the top and there are some people who seem to be obsessed with power

:28:25.:28:29.

for power's sake, and happy with a timid offer but the Liberal

:28:30.:28:32.

Democrats want to change things. We are running out of time so let's try

:28:33.:28:38.

to squeeze one more call in. What are your thoughts on the long-term

:28:39.:28:43.

future of the party? I think serious long-term danger is that the party

:28:44.:28:47.

could be relegated to the fringes of the UK and no longer being a

:28:48.:28:52.

national party. We have gone back decades if that happens because for

:28:53.:28:56.

many years we have been represented in every part of the country at some

:28:57.:28:59.

level and we have got to rescue ourselves from that. Some

:29:00.:29:02.

interesting views but we are going to have to wait until the general

:29:03.:29:07.

election next year to find out how well the Lib Dems face up to these

:29:08.:29:11.

challenges. Thanks for listening, we are going to finish with an old

:29:12.:29:14.

classic now. # I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #.

:29:15.:29:17.

Nick Clegg, welcome to the programme. I want to come onto your

:29:18.:29:21.

situation in a minute but as you will have seen in the papers, there

:29:22.:29:25.

is mounting concern over and historic Westminster paedophile

:29:26.:29:27.

ring, and files relating to it mysteriously disappearing. Why are

:29:28.:29:29.

you against a full public enquiry into this? I wouldn't rule anything

:29:30.:29:35.

out. I think we should do anything it takes to uncover this and achieve

:29:36.:29:41.

justice. delivered, even all these many years

:29:42.:30:01.

later. How do you do it? There is an inquiry in the Home Office about

:30:02.:30:04.

what's happened to these documents, serious questions need to be asked

:30:05.:30:08.

about what happened in the Home Office and those questions need to

:30:09.:30:11.

be answered. There are inquiries in the BBC, in the NHS and most

:30:12.:30:16.

importantly of all the police are looking into the places where this

:30:17.:30:19.

abuse was alleged to have taken place. All I would say is, let's

:30:20.:30:26.

make sure that justice is delivered, truth is uncovered and I think that

:30:27.:30:32.

the way to do that, as we have seen, is by allowing the police to get on

:30:33.:30:36.

with their work. You say that, but there are only seven police involved

:30:37.:30:40.

in this inquiry. There are 195 involved in the hacking

:30:41.:30:43.

investigations. We can both agree that child abuse is more important

:30:44.:30:49.

and serious than hacking. The Home Office, there are reports that Home

:30:50.:30:52.

Office officials may have been mentioned in the dossier, people

:30:53.:30:56.

don't trust people to investigate themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept

:30:57.:31:00.

that we need to make sure that - and that we need to make sure that and

:31:01.:31:04.

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

:31:05.:31:05.

thorough, well resourced. I can't thorough, well resourced. I can t

:31:06.:31:09.

think of anything more horrendous, I can't, than powerful people

:31:10.:31:14.

organising themselves and worse still, this is what is alleged,

:31:15.:31:18.

covering up for each other to abuse the most vulnerable people in

:31:19.:31:22.

society's care - children. But at the end of the day, the only way you

:31:23.:31:26.

can get people in the dock, the only way you can get people charged, is

:31:27.:31:31.

by allowing the prosecuting authorities and the police to do

:31:32.:31:36.

their job. I have an open mind about what other inquiries take place A

:31:37.:31:39.

number of other inquiries are taking place. I assume any additional

:31:40.:31:43.

inquiries wouldn't be able to second guess or look into the matters which

:31:44.:31:46.

the police are looking into already. All I would say is that people who

:31:47.:31:50.

have information, who want to provide information which they think

:31:51.:31:53.

is relevant to this, please get in touch with the police. Alright.

:31:54.:31:57.

Let's come on to our own inquiry into the state of the Lib Dems. You

:31:58.:32:02.

have attempted to distance yourself and the party from the Tories, but

:32:03.:32:07.

still stay in Government - it is called aggressive differentiation.

:32:08.:32:12.

Why isn't it working? It's not called aggressive differentiation.

:32:13.:32:18.

It is called "coalition". It is two parties who retain different

:32:19.:32:21.

identities, different values, have different aspirations for the

:32:22.:32:25.

future. But during this Parliament have come together because we were

:32:26.:32:28.

facing a unique national emergency back in 2010, the economy was

:32:29.:32:31.

teetering on the edge of a precipice.

:32:32.:32:40.

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

:32:41.:32:43.

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

:32:44.:32:46.

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

:32:47.:32:49.

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

:32:50.:32:57.

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

:32:58.:33:01.

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

:33:02.:33:06.

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

:33:07.:33:14.

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

:33:15.:33:18.

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

:33:19.:33:23.

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

:33:24.:33:26.

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

:33:27.:33:30.

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

:33:31.:33:32.

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

:33:33.:33:36.

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

:33:37.:33:41.

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

:33:42.:33:48.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

:33:49.:33:53.

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

:33:54.:34:03.

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

:34:04.:34:08.

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

:34:09.:34:12.

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

:34:13.:34:16.

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

:34:17.:34:23.

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

:34:24.:34:27.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties.

:34:28.:34:28.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties It

:34:29.:34:28.

Conservative and Labour parties. It is a big effort. Of course, there

:34:29.:34:31.

are lots of people from both left and right who want to shout us down

:34:32.:34:35.

and want to vilify our role in Government. What we also need to do

:34:36.:34:40.

- and Nick Harvey was quite right - having been proud of our record of

:34:41.:34:44.

delivery, we also need to set out in our manifesto as we are and as we

:34:45.:34:50.

will our promise of more, of more support in schools. So why is it

:34:51.:34:58.

then... Why is it then that a Lib Dem MP in our own film says you are

:34:59.:35:03.

in danger of no longer becoming a National Party. That could be the

:35:04.:35:06.

Clegg legacy, you cease to be a National Party? I'm a practical man.

:35:07.:35:13.

I believe passionately in what we have done in politics. I am so proud

:35:14.:35:17.

of my party. I don't spend that much time speculating that the end might

:35:18.:35:20.

be nigh. There is no point in doing that. Let's get out there, which is

:35:21.:35:27.

what I do in my own constituency, in challenges circumstances and say we

:35:28.:35:30.

are proud of what we have done, we have done a good thing for the

:35:31.:35:33.

country, we have delivered more Liberal Democrat policies than the

:35:34.:35:37.

party has ever dreamed delivering before. We have a programme of

:35:38.:35:40.

change, of reform, of liberal reform, which is very exciting. Just

:35:41.:35:44.

over the last few weeks, I have been setting out our plans to provide

:35:45.:35:49.

more help to carers, to make sure teachers in every classroom are

:35:50.:35:53.

properly qualified, that all kids in school are being taught a proper

:35:54.:35:58.

core curriculum. That parts company from the ideological rigidities with

:35:59.:36:02.

which the Conservatives deal with education policy. Those are thing

:36:03.:36:06.

which speak to many of the values that people who support us...

:36:07.:36:13.

Alright. When Mike Storey gets out and about, he told this programme

:36:14.:36:19.

two weeks' ago that he finds that you "are toxic on the doorstep".

:36:20.:36:23.

you "are toxic on the doorstep" Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:24.:36:27.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:28.:36:30.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:31.:36:35.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:36.:36:39.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:40.:36:43.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:44.:36:46.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:47.:36:50.

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

:36:51.:36:52.

good reason for that. They didn t good reason for that. They didn't

:36:53.:36:56.

win the election. The left say that somehow we have lost our soul when

:36:57.:37:00.

we haven't. That happens day in day out. Of course that will have some

:37:01.:37:05.

effect. My answer to that is not to buckle to those criticisms, those

:37:06.:37:12.

misplaced Chris -- criticisms from left and right, but to stand up

:37:13.:37:18.

proudly. Is it your intention to fight the next election against an

:37:19.:37:24.

in-out referendum on Europe? Yes. Unless there is major treaty change?

:37:25.:37:29.

Our position hasn't waivered, it won't waiver, we are not going to

:37:30.:37:34.

flip-flop on the issue of the referendum like the Conservatives

:37:35.:37:37.

did. We want an in-out referendum. With ve legislated for the trigger

:37:38.:37:40.

when that will happen, when in u powers are transferred to the

:37:41.:37:43.

European Union. That is what we have said for years. We legislated for

:37:44.:37:49.

that... So no change? No change. Alright. We are expecting a

:37:50.:37:54.

reshuffle shortly. Will you keep Vince Cable as Business Secretary to

:37:55.:37:59.

the election? I'm immensely proud of what Vince has done. Yes, I intend

:38:00.:38:06.

to make sure that Vince continues to serve in the Government in his

:38:07.:38:10.

present capacity Look what he has done on apprenticeships, he's done

:38:11.:38:13.

more than many people for many years to make sure we build-up

:38:14.:38:16.

manufacturing, the north here, not just the south. I'm proud of what

:38:17.:38:22.

he's done. We have talked about some heavy things. We know you have got

:38:23.:38:26.

into kickboxing. Is there any danger of you becoming a mammal - you know

:38:27.:38:32.

what I mean - a middle-aged man in Lycra! Will the Tour de France

:38:33.:38:39.

influence you? Absolutely no risk of that whatsoever having seen the Tour

:38:40.:38:46.

de France start yesterday near Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire

:38:47.:38:53.

sign on my pullover. I will see them later whisk through my constituency.

:38:54.:38:56.

I will not try to emulate them. I'm sure that is to the relief of a

:38:57.:38:58.

grateful nation. Thank you. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:38:59.:39:02.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:39:03.:39:08.

in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:09.:39:10.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:39:11.:39:12.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:39:13.:39:19.

This week we're working out how best to cross the river.

:39:20.:39:24.

When is East London going to get what west London has?

:39:25.:39:27.

Here today are Gavin Barwell, Conservative MP for Croydon Central,

:39:28.:39:32.

and Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North.

:39:33.:39:34.

First though to more race troubles for the Metropolitan Police.

:39:35.:39:40.

And an employment tribunal finding against the force.

:39:41.:39:43.

Firearms officer Carol Howard was the victim of sexual and racial

:39:44.:39:47.

But it emerged that references to discrimination were removed

:39:48.:39:53.

from the original internal Met report into her grievances.

:39:54.:39:58.

The Met commissioner said that was on legal advice.

:39:59.:40:01.

And on the discrimination itself, that it was the action

:40:02.:40:05.

It does do further damage? It is so important in a city like London with

:40:06.:40:22.

such a diverse population. I think to be fair to the current

:40:23.:40:25.

Commissioner, he understands that and I think he is making changes to

:40:26.:40:30.

try and build that confidence, but cases like this don't help do that.

:40:31.:40:37.

The thing that emerged which the tribunal alighted on, when it came

:40:38.:40:40.

to the internal report, they had to remove those references. That seems

:40:41.:40:45.

a cover-up, but does it not, when you think about it, make sense

:40:46.:40:49.

legally if this is then going to go to a tribunal that you are weakening

:40:50.:40:54.

your case? I think you have put your finger on it. You can see legally

:40:55.:40:58.

why they got that advice. It doesn't look good in terms of public

:40:59.:41:05.

opinion. Do you think the Metropolitan Police should put

:41:06.:41:08.

everything out there on every internal documentation if it is

:41:09.:41:11.

going to damage them? It is quite tough to say that for all documents

:41:12.:41:15.

because I don't know what the legal advice was. Clearly, the problem

:41:16.:41:19.

they have is this doesn't appear to be open and transparent. It comes on

:41:20.:41:25.

top of a long history going back to the beginnings of Stephen Lawrence,

:41:26.:41:29.

if not before, of concerns over how the Met is handling race. I

:41:30.:41:34.

understand there are 34 other cases of discrimination that have been

:41:35.:41:38.

settled. I think the GLA have referred this to the Mayor to look

:41:39.:41:42.

at those cases. When you see something like this, how do you

:41:43.:41:48.

think it helps the drive and recruitment for more black and

:41:49.:41:52.

ethnic minority officers? I work very closely with the Black Police

:41:53.:41:55.

Association and I know that part of their concern is that even now, I

:41:56.:42:01.

think Gavin is right, the Commissioner is trying to make

:42:02.:42:05.

progress. We only have 10% of London's police service who are

:42:06.:42:08.

black and ethnic minority in a city where half of the city are black and

:42:09.:42:15.

ethnic minority and that can't be good. The Met does want to see a

:42:16.:42:25.

more diverse police service. Does it make it less likely your

:42:26.:42:28.

constituents will come forward and say I want to be part of that force?

:42:29.:42:33.

I hope not. There are lots of great officers that do a really good job

:42:34.:42:38.

for our communities who want the Met to change and it doesn't help them

:42:39.:42:41.

in terms of the good work that they are doing.

:42:42.:42:44.

120 years ago this week, Tower Bridge was completed.

:42:45.:42:46.

But to the east of it London is short of crossings. Very short.

:42:47.:42:49.

Transport for London is now beginning yet another public

:42:50.:42:52.

consultation on what should be built.

:42:53.:42:55.

This week Tower Bridge celebrated its 120th anniversary.

:42:56.:43:02.

In the intervening century and a bit, London hasn't done

:43:03.:43:05.

Now, to the west of Tower Bridge there are 22 bridges

:43:06.:43:11.

If you look east, it's a completely different story,

:43:12.:43:16.

you have to leave London and go to Dartford until you see another

:43:17.:43:19.

Instead, East London has two tunnels - Blackwell and Rotherhithe

:43:20.:43:27.

NEWSREEL: The idea is to have nine arterial roads for fast traffic

:43:28.:43:35.

Another road crossing in the east has been on the cards for 70 years.

:43:36.:43:43.

The first serious attempt to build the bridge at Gallions Reach was

:43:44.:43:47.

thwarted by local opposition as it would have meant the

:43:48.:43:49.

destruction of historic woodlands.

:43:50.:43:52.

A plan came back under Ken Livingstone, but was scrapped again,

:43:53.:43:55.

This week the London Chamber of Commerce released this image

:43:56.:44:04.

of an East London crossing on the same spot.

:44:05.:44:06.

We all know we can build bridges, it's often the planning

:44:07.:44:09.

and consultation process which is difficult. That is why

:44:10.:44:12.

what we have been keen to do is emphasise the benefits that this

:44:13.:44:15.

Transport for London agree. And tomorrow are launching something

:44:16.:44:20.

like the tenth public consultation on building a bridge here at

:44:21.:44:23.

Gallions Reach - the same place planners have consistently failed to

:44:24.:44:26.

Now, in a similar period of time we have managed to

:44:27.:44:32.

completely change London's skyline, build the M25, throw up the Olympic

:44:33.:44:36.

So why have we not managed to build a bridge that goes

:44:37.:44:42.

Another piece of infrastructure that we have

:44:43.:44:51.

On it, I asked one of the bridge's biggest opponents why Gallions

:44:52.:44:57.

The bridge on the south side touches down at Gallions Reach.

:44:58.:45:04.

The traffic that would be flowing over the bridge would be going up

:45:05.:45:08.

There would be ten times the volume of traffic that's there now and the

:45:09.:45:12.

roads struggle with the volume that there is now.

:45:13.:45:14.

One of the routes it would have take is up a narrow country

:45:15.:45:17.

track called Knee Hill where two cars have trouble passing. When you

:45:18.:45:19.

are sending articulated lorries and lots more volume of other traffic,

:45:20.:45:23.

Transport for London say this time will be different

:45:24.:45:28.

as they are trying to build more than just the one crossing.

:45:29.:45:31.

Historically, we were promoting one crossing,

:45:32.:45:35.

crossing in the vicinity of the Gallions Reach and the

:45:36.:45:39.

original oproposal. We are promoting a series of crossings now.

:45:40.:45:41.

People do want a series of crossings. That will spread the load

:45:42.:45:44.

and dilute people's concerns about the environment.

:45:45.:45:46.

However the consultation on East London bridges

:45:47.:45:50.

goes, it is very likely that the next bridge the capital sees will be

:45:51.:45:52.

this, the garden bridge in Central London, conceived of and organised

:45:53.:45:56.

Construction is expected to start next year.

:45:57.:46:02.

When you are putting a pedestrian bridge in, people

:46:03.:46:05.

aren't so concerned about attracting more pedestrians to an area.

:46:06.:46:09.

When you put a bridge in that vehicles with four wheels

:46:10.:46:13.

can go on, people get concerned about it because they think you will

:46:14.:46:15.

Along with being less contentious, the garden bridge is largely

:46:16.:46:20.

privately funded and goes across a narrower part of the Thames.

:46:21.:46:23.

Perhaps all reasons why building bridges is some

:46:24.:46:26.

discussion with Joanna Lumley and Lord Adonis, former Transport

:46:27.:46:48.

Secretary. You have been doing work on east London crossings for a think

:46:49.:46:53.

tank. Would you reinstate the Thames Gate Bridge which Boris Johnson

:46:54.:47:01.

rejected? Definitely. There was growing issues to do with how you

:47:02.:47:06.

would handle traffic coming from the south but the case for the bridge in

:47:07.:47:12.

terms of economic development is overwhelmingly strong and that is

:47:13.:47:16.

now generally recognised. The piece of work I am doing will reinforce

:47:17.:47:21.

the argument for that. Same place, broadly the same kind of offer that

:47:22.:47:27.

was their five or six years ago? Similar but you need to work out how

:47:28.:47:32.

you can best handle the traffic coming from the south so there is an

:47:33.:47:37.

issue there, but without the bridge you will not get the degree of

:47:38.:47:40.

economic development and in particular housing that is so

:47:41.:47:45.

desperately needed... What would be the issue on the south? You are

:47:46.:47:50.

pinpointing the issues about existing very narrow roads, what do

:47:51.:47:57.

you do about it? Widen roads? Get rid of woodlands? You could also

:47:58.:48:04.

tunnel more, so there are different options for handling the traffic and

:48:05.:48:08.

they need to be options for things that would happen rather than

:48:09.:48:13.

obstacles to building the bridge and giving this essential new economic

:48:14.:48:17.

generator that is required. We often get stuck seeing the problems rather

:48:18.:48:21.

than working through the solutions. Those bridges west of Tower Bridge,

:48:22.:48:27.

can you imagine the life of London if we only had half of them? We talk

:48:28.:48:32.

about east London as a massive growth corridor, and yet the biggest

:48:33.:48:40.

obstacle holding back the development is the fact you cannot

:48:41.:48:47.

get across the Thames. If Boris Johnson have not made that

:48:48.:48:54.

decision, would you have built it? The bridge would have been opening

:48:55.:49:00.

this year. I think it was a mistake to have cancelled it. All of the

:49:01.:49:04.

money was there, there was overwhelming support from the local

:49:05.:49:09.

authority is engaged. In this issue of Bexley, in the last Transport for

:49:10.:49:18.

London consultation a majority of respondents in Bexley backed the

:49:19.:49:24.

bridge. They would have backed it even if it had gone straight into

:49:25.:49:29.

the existing road system without further changes. The economic

:49:30.:49:33.

benefit north and south of the river is vital. You have got all of the

:49:34.:49:38.

massive housing developments in Barking which are proposed. In

:49:39.:49:43.

Transport for London's own assessment of what is holding that

:49:44.:49:48.

development, the absence of a Thames crossing is the biggest single

:49:49.:49:52.

factor so we have to sort this out. It is not a party political thing,

:49:53.:49:58.

it goes into the classic divide of action and inaction. Let's get you

:49:59.:50:03.

on that for a moment, what do you think when you hear that? I think

:50:04.:50:08.

there should be three or four river crossings, it is vitally important.

:50:09.:50:13.

If you cannot get across the Thames, you either get stuck in one of those

:50:14.:50:28.

tunnels, or you have got to clog up London fighting your way across

:50:29.:50:34.

There were plans in 2008. Yes, I remember plans covering half a mile

:50:35.:50:46.

of the river. Why are they not built? There is no comparison. The

:50:47.:50:52.

truth is that ours is a different bridge, it is for pedestrians and it

:50:53.:50:57.

is different thing than for articulated lorries, and the

:50:58.:51:02.

distance we have got. As the Thames widens out, it is huge and I think

:51:03.:51:09.

maybe a lot of the will goes when we see how much money because I don't

:51:10.:51:15.

know how much it was going to cost originally? In the vicinity of 500

:51:16.:51:16.

originally? In the vicinity of 00 million. I want to bring Gavin in

:51:17.:51:23.

very quickly, you are a London MP. It could have been built by now but

:51:24.:51:28.

for the decision Boris Johnson made. What do you think about that? It

:51:29.:51:33.

looks like he is now thinking that we do need one after all. I think

:51:34.:51:40.

Andrew's divide is right, I think if we look at the issues we face as

:51:41.:51:45.

London MPs they are nearly all symptoms of the success London is

:51:46.:51:49.

having. I think this is a better potential plan, both because it is

:51:50.:51:53.

looking at several crossings and it is important to address the issues

:51:54.:51:59.

around the connection. Would you accept, be honest and say, it is a

:52:00.:52:06.

pity we didn't act in 2008? It is certainly a pity we didn't have the

:52:07.:52:11.

right solution but this looks like a better solution with a connection at

:52:12.:52:14.

the southern end of the bridge. Which would be more important to

:52:15.:52:21.

your constituents, a garden bridge... That is not quite fair! In

:52:22.:52:27.

terms of long-term decisions, the crossings further down are

:52:28.:52:32.

important. I don't really think it is a question of one or the other.

:52:33.:52:38.

He might have said he doesn't like your garden bridge! Let's talk about

:52:39.:52:43.

that for a moment, you were involved right at the beginning. Why? It was

:52:44.:52:53.

my idea. Where did it come from? Because I love gardens and I love

:52:54.:52:58.

bridges, I used to draw them when I was younger. I came to London late

:52:59.:53:04.

in life when I was 18 and fell in love with the city. Everything that

:53:05.:53:08.

makes London more lovely, I adore. Were you trying to get it off the

:53:09.:53:15.

ground before the millennium Bridge? Yes, the idea was put in for the

:53:16.:53:21.

competition for what would be the memorial for the Princess of Wales

:53:22.:53:25.

when she died and it was pipped to the post by what they have now. We

:53:26.:53:31.

had the Transport for London saying it is much easier when you look in

:53:32.:53:36.

terms of pedestrians, but what about the cost? Two thirds from the

:53:37.:53:41.

Government or the mayor? No, the bridge is going to cost 275 million,

:53:42.:53:49.

the Government gave us 30 million which is extremely generous. It is a

:53:50.:53:54.

London thoroughfare so it gave us another 30, we have a lot of VAT to

:53:55.:54:00.

pay. The rest is donations from the public which we haven't gone to yet.

:54:01.:54:06.

You will do that when you have a final set of plans. You're planning

:54:07.:54:12.

application has to be ticked off. We know the financial issues around

:54:13.:54:15.

these bridges, why should there be any public money going into a bridge

:54:16.:54:20.

like this, which might by comparison be seen as a vanity project,

:54:21.:54:25.

something that enhances the capital. For whom? In terms of the

:54:26.:54:32.

capital's feeling for itself. Do you think public money should be going

:54:33.:54:37.

into that? We have seen the shortage of transport facilities. I don't No,

:54:38.:54:44.

I'm not sure it would be right to have it entirely private money.

:54:45.:54:52.

London belongs to Londoners, we pay our taxes. You are talking as if we

:54:53.:54:58.

are stealing it from something. No, asking the question because we know

:54:59.:55:01.

that private money has to be involved in almost everything. With

:55:02.:55:16.

the PFI as well... What would your plan B? It is going to be a big

:55:17.:55:23.

cultural attraction bringing big revenues. 5.5 million visitors to

:55:24.:55:32.

the Tate modern last year and that institution didn't exist 14 years

:55:33.:55:39.

ago. It will be the same with Joanna's bridge, it will be one of

:55:40.:55:44.

the reasons people come to London. Karen, do you agree with that? Do

:55:45.:55:50.

you have an issue where there are limited public funds, where do they

:55:51.:55:55.

go? You are never going to make totally optimum decisions on this

:55:56.:56:00.

because you would only end up building one crossing and no other

:56:01.:56:03.

transport elsewhere in the capital so I think it is right that

:56:04.:56:09.

investment capital is the key to unlocking growth. I think it is

:56:10.:56:13.

right there should be a partnership in terms of funding something like

:56:14.:56:17.

the garden bridge because if you look at New York and what they have

:56:18.:56:22.

done with their elevated railways, it is a fantastic announcement of

:56:23.:56:28.

the city. Give me an idea of how you would like it to feel. I think

:56:29.:56:34.

quiet, I love the river and the difficulty is that wherever you

:56:35.:56:36.

cross the river... I difficulty is that wherever you

:56:37.:56:41.

bridges, I am not saying it will be better but it

:56:42.:56:45.

completely quiet. The millennium Bridge is quiet but it is like a

:56:46.:56:51.

knife, completely straight. What are the issues going to be about getting

:56:52.:56:56.

it passed the planners? I will not touch wood because there is none in

:56:57.:57:02.

the studio, that is cruel. It seems that our planning application will

:57:03.:57:06.

go through successfully. It has been approved by everybody because we

:57:07.:57:11.

have spoken to the bowlers on both sides and everybody has had their

:57:12.:57:16.

import and so on. -- spoken to be London boroughs. I want to come back

:57:17.:57:22.

to this money thing because I pay my taxes properly and every single

:57:23.:57:26.

penny I should pay so that this country can develop. I don't mind

:57:27.:57:39.

that they employ MPs to be our voices. I don't think I want to be

:57:40.:57:44.

the person to say, I don't think you should allow money to go here or

:57:45.:57:48.

there. That is not my job. A guarantee here that will a Labour

:57:49.:57:52.

government from next year, that river crossing with some private

:57:53.:57:55.

finance arrangement will be right back on the table and work can go

:57:56.:58:01.

straight away? Labour would go ahead with it. Without it, we won't get

:58:02.:58:09.

the housing, the economic development and the opening up of

:58:10.:58:13.

the Thames Gateway we need to seek, but we also need Joanna's bridge, it

:58:14.:58:19.

is visionary. There are so many bridges, we cannot talk about them

:58:20.:58:25.

any more. Now it is time for the rest of this week's political news

:58:26.:58:27.

in 60 seconds. From today Londoners will no longer

:58:28.:58:46.

be able to pay for their bus journeys using cash. Only Oyster

:58:47.:58:49.

Cards, Travelcards, Freedom Passes and contactless payments will be

:58:50.:58:52.

accepted. Transport for London claim a tiny fraction of journeys are paid

:58:53.:58:54.

for using cash. Golf courses take up 1%

:58:55.:58:57.

of the land in the UK. It could be better used to provide

:58:58.:59:00.

homes, says Green Assembly Member Jenny Jones. She argues that golf

:59:01.:59:02.

courses could limit the building of Department for Education statistics

:59:03.:59:05.

show disadvantaged pupils in Inner London are more likely to

:59:06.:59:08.

go to university than much better off youngsters outside the capital

:59:09.:59:12.

with 63% of poor pupils in London's schools and colleges progressing

:59:13.:59:15.

into higher education. A review by the Electoral Commission

:59:16.:59:17.

into vote counting for the local and European elections in Tower Hamlets

:59:18.:59:20.

has found the management of the count was inadequate. The final ward

:59:21.:59:23.

results were not declared until 27th May, five days after votes

:59:24.:59:26.

were cast. Karen, cashless buses, sensible now?

:59:27.:59:43.

Broadly but I do worry about what will happen to the tourists, the

:59:44.:59:48.

people who are not necessarily following this. I worry about what

:59:49.:59:53.

will happen to people late at night who don't have their Oyster card and

:59:54.:59:58.

will get kicked off. Because we are moving towards fewer laughing and

:59:59.:00:03.

good staffing levels at stations as well, it feels it is a sensible way

:00:04.:00:10.

to proceed but you do need to make sure there is a proper backstop in

:00:11.:00:13.

well, it feels it is a sensible way to proceed but you do need to terms

:00:14.:00:15.

of service systems to help struggling people. This will

:00:16.:00:18.

backfire badly if of 16-year-old girl is toned down and rejected,

:00:19.:00:24.

what safeguards are there? There is a good pilot that Transport for

:00:25.:00:27.

London have been planning which is that if you don't have your Oyster

:00:28.:00:33.

card, you can have one extra journey so you can still get the bus home.

:00:34.:00:40.

The word discretionary was in there. No, you get one extra journey and

:00:41.:00:46.

with that safeguard, that is the sensible way. What about Oyster

:00:47.:00:51.

cards that have been damaged or lost? I agree with Karen, there are

:00:52.:00:57.

points of detail around how those situations will work but overall, I

:00:58.:01:02.

think ten years ago 20% of people were paying in cash, it is now under

:01:03.:01:09.

1%. They have got to find ways of delivering the service while saving

:01:10.:01:15.

money. Quickly, recognition for what Labour did... Poor students are

:01:16.:01:19.

outperforming other poor students elsewhere in the country. The

:01:20.:01:23.

Academy programme that Andrew and Tony Blair started was one of the

:01:24.:01:27.

best things the Labour government did and Michael Gove and the Tory

:01:28.:01:33.

government is taking that forward. In Wales where they are resisting

:01:34.:01:37.

the programme, the evidence is really compelling. The thing is

:01:38.:01:41.

about what the Conservatives have done is that they have taken the

:01:42.:01:46.

Academy programme and Labour reforms that Labour did in to their logical

:01:47.:01:48.

conclusion and make them better. conclusion and make them better

:01:49.:01:53.

Funnily enough and introduced chaos and waste, but the critical thing is

:01:54.:01:59.

that although the academies in the most deprived areas were a great

:02:00.:02:04.

success, and I have a number of them and I am delighted with them, the

:02:05.:02:11.

research indicates that most of the progress in London was being made

:02:12.:02:15.

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

:02:16.:02:17.

you. What will Thursday's mass

:02:18.:02:21.

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

:02:22.:02:23.

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

:02:24.:02:25.

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

:02:26.:02:48.

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

:02:49.:02:53.

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

:02:54.:02:57.

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

:02:58.:03:01.

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

:03:02.:03:08.

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

:03:09.:03:15.

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

:03:16.:03:19.

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

:03:20.:03:24.

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

:03:25.:03:29.

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

:03:30.:03:33.

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

:03:34.:03:38.

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

:03:39.:03:43.

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

:03:44.:03:48.

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

:03:49.:03:53.

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

:03:54.:03:56.

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

:03:57.:03:59.

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

:04:00.:04:03.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --

:04:04.:04:05.

this ef are I time there is a - every time there is a strike, this

:04:06.:04:10.

idea of cutting it to ballots and local election turnout was a third.

:04:11.:04:14.

Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London with 38% turnout. We need to

:04:15.:04:18.

talk about-turnout across our democracy. That is an easy rebuttal

:04:19.:04:27.

for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was hardline about changing the strike

:04:28.:04:31.

law. When you asked him the question, if you are not going to

:04:32.:04:34.

stabilise the public finances till 2018, does this mean the pay freeze

:04:35.:04:39.

or no real term pay increase in the public sector will increase till

:04:40.:04:44.

2018, h e was inner vous on that one. -- he was nervous on that one.

:04:45.:04:50.

This strike is different to those strikes that took place in 2010 At

:04:51.:04:52.

strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour

:04:53.:04:55.

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

:04:56.:05:01.

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

:05:02.:05:06.

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

:05:07.:05:12.

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

:05:13.:05:16.

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

:05:17.:05:24.

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

:05:25.:05:28.

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

:05:29.:05:35.

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

:05:36.:05:38.

problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they

:05:39.:05:41.

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

:05:42.:05:46.

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

:05:47.:05:49.

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

:05:50.:05:58.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do

:05:59.:06:03.

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

:06:04.:06:07.

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

:06:08.:06:12.

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse

:06:13.:06:15.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

:06:16.:06:20.

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

:06:21.:06:25.

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

:06:26.:06:30.

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

:06:31.:06:35.

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

:06:36.:06:38.

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

:06:39.:06:42.

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

:06:43.:06:50.

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

:06:51.:07:02.

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

:07:03.:07:06.

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

:07:07.:07:13.

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

:07:14.:07:17.

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

:07:18.:07:20.

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

:07:21.:07:23.

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

:07:24.:07:26.

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

:07:27.:07:29.

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

:07:30.:07:32.

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

:07:33.:07:35.

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

:07:36.:07:55.

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

:07:56.:07:59.

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

:08:00.:08:03.

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

:08:04.:08:08.

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

:08:09.:08:15.

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

:08:16.:08:22.

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

:08:23.:08:24.

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

:08:25.:08:27.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

:08:28.:08:29.

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

:08:30.:08:31.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

:08:32.:08:42.

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

:08:43.:08:48.

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

:08:49.:08:51.

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

:08:52.:08:56.

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

:08:57.:09:01.

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

:09:02.:09:07.

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

:09:08.:09:13.

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

:09:14.:09:18.

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

:09:19.:09:21.

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

:09:22.:09:24.

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

:09:25.:09:29.

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

:09:30.:09:34.

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

:09:35.:09:38.

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

:09:39.:09:41.

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

:09:42.:09:45.

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

:09:46.:09:49.

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

:09:50.:09:54.

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

:09:55.:09:59.

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

:10:00.:10:04.

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:05.:10:11.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all The

:10:12.:10:15.

danger to this country is another Labour Government. That is one of

:10:16.:10:19.

the main reasons that I left UKIP in 2005 because that last five years of

:10:20.:10:23.

the Labour Government was the most dangerous to the fundamentals of

:10:24.:10:28.

Britain that we have ever seen. I'm happy with the Conservatives. I have

:10:29.:10:37.

full Conservative values. I am a Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining

:10:38.:10:44.

us. The Westminster bubble yet again, which has a herd mentality, a

:10:45.:10:52.

bubble with a herd mentality, it got it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's

:10:53.:10:59.

isolated, he is useless at diplomacy, all of which may be true,

:11:00.:11:04.

but the British people liked it and his backbenchers liked it? True.

:11:05.:11:05.

his backbenchers liked it? True Although some of us would say it is

:11:06.:11:09.

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

:11:10.:11:13.

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

:11:14.:11:25.

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

:11:26.:11:30.

saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005

:11:31.:11:37.

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

:11:38.:11:40.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

:11:41.:11:44.

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

:11:45.:11:49.

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

:11:50.:11:53.

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

:11:54.:11:58.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

:11:59.:12:03.

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

:12:04.:12:12.

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

:12:13.:12:18.

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different -

:12:19.:12:20.

is very clever for a different -- the selection is very clever for a

:12:21.:12:23.

different reason. It is this anti-London feeling in Thanet South.

:12:24.:12:29.

He is a councillor, he grew up in the constituency. He is a chartered

:12:30.:12:32.

accountant. He is somebody who can be seen to be a champion of local

:12:33.:12:36.

people. If they had parachuted in a special adviser, they would be in

:12:37.:12:40.

real trouble. He wants to get out... This is the third representative of

:12:41.:12:44.

the bubble? He wants to get out of the European Union which David

:12:45.:12:47.

Cameron doesn't want to do. It was interesting for that statement to

:12:48.:12:52.

MPs on Monday, there were mild Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't

:12:53.:12:56.

take this." The Speaker said can the baying mob, the Conservative MPs,

:12:57.:13:01.

quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw, the former Minister made it, he

:13:02.:13:06.

said, "I'm reminded when the leader of the Labour Party before Harold

:13:07.:13:13.

Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic speech and Mrs Gaitskell said

:13:14.:13:18.

darling, the wrong people are cheering." That is the challenge.

:13:19.:13:20.

Thank you, bubbles! The Daily Politics is back

:13:21.:13:23.

at its usual Noon time every day And I'll be back here on BBC One

:13:24.:13:27.

next Sunday at 11pm for the last Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll

:13:28.:13:33.

be talking to Scotland's Deputy Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:34.:13:38.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:39.:13:45.

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