25/10/2015 Sunday Politics London


25/10/2015

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Is Chancellor Osborne right to stick to his guns over tax credit cuts?

:00:35.:00:43.

The Treasury insists there will be no U-turn.

:00:44.:00:45.

But rumblings of discontent have spread from the Tory back-benches to

:00:46.:00:49.

the cabinet, with growing calls for the Chancellor to soften

:00:50.:00:52.

Tomorrow, the Lords have their say on the issue.

:00:53.:00:58.

They might well reject the policy, which could provoke

:00:59.:01:00.

We'll be talking to former Chancellor Ken Clarke and

:01:01.:01:05.

Could moderate Labour MPs face the chop

:01:06.:01:12.

The left is said to be plotting to swing Labour

:01:13.:01:16.

They could be helped by changes to constituency boundaries.

:01:17.:01:20.

Labour left-winger and former London Mayor, Ken Livingstone joins us

:01:21.:01:25.

In London, part of the government's anti-terrorism strategy is

:01:26.:01:27.

under fire from a Labour council for damaging community cohesion

:01:28.:01:31.

And with me - as always - the best dressed, the most

:01:32.:01:43.

intelligent and the most fun political panel in the business

:01:44.:01:47.

At least, that's what it says on autocue.

:01:48.:01:51.

Regard their talk-talk as about reliable as the TalkTalk website.

:01:52.:01:56.

I speak of course, of Nick Watt Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh,

:01:57.:01:59.

who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:02:00.:02:02.

Now, first this morning, let's talk about the Labour Shadow Chancellor,

:02:03.:02:05.

John McDonnell, who appeared on the Andrew Marr Show a little earlier.

:02:06.:02:08.

He revealed he's written to the Chancellor urging him

:02:09.:02:10.

to reverse the Government's proposed changes to tax credits.

:02:11.:02:14.

I know what a U-turn looks like and how it can damage you,

:02:15.:02:20.

I have said to him, look, if you can change your mind on this, we will

:02:21.:02:26.

not make any political capital out of this, so if the Lords do throw

:02:27.:02:30.

this out tomorrow and put it back to the government, I have said to him,

:02:31.:02:34.

if you change your mind, bring back a policy in which people

:02:35.:02:37.

are protected, not a political stunt, but a real protection,

:02:38.:02:39.

we will not in any way attack you for that,

:02:40.:02:41.

We are going to talk about the substance of the tax credits later

:02:42.:02:57.

in the programme but what do you make of this more reasonable John

:02:58.:03:03.

McDonnell? He was very bruised by the fiscal charter and this is

:03:04.:03:06.

somebody who said he would wade through vomit to oppose these cuts.

:03:07.:03:11.

He is now being reasonable and he said if you give us a U-turn, I will

:03:12.:03:15.

be nice to you, George Osborne. He will not get a U-turn that what he

:03:16.:03:19.

will get from the Chancellor is a change of tack. There was a big

:03:20.:03:23.

expectation that once we have the votes in the House of Lords out of

:03:24.:03:26.

the way tomorrow, George Osborne will indicate in his Autumn

:03:27.:03:38.

Statement, he will soften the impact of the cuts. He will not change the

:03:39.:03:41.

specific Wallasey but he will tinker around the edges. In order to

:03:42.:03:44.

achieve that, the House of Lords cannot vote for this fateful motion.

:03:45.:03:46.

Equally, they cannot vote for Patricia Hollis's motion. They can

:03:47.:03:50.

vote for the bishops' motion and then the Chancellor will indicate he

:03:51.:03:55.

will soften the impact. He will have to do more than just tweaking if he

:03:56.:04:00.

is going to soften the blow in any meaningful way, I would suggest

:04:01.:04:05.

Tweaking is not enough when you look at the losses lower paid families

:04:06.:04:09.

will be hit by. It is interesting how many people who are plainly

:04:10.:04:13.

clueless about the technicalities of this say let him tweak a bit here

:04:14.:04:18.

and there. You understand these things. If you don't understand

:04:19.:04:20.

this, all you need to do is hold onto one thing. He is going to cut

:04:21.:04:26.

4.5 billion from the very lowest paid hard-working people. All you

:04:27.:04:30.

need to know about his tweak is how much will he give back of that? My

:04:31.:04:37.

guess is, it will be very little. Those same people will still be hit

:04:38.:04:41.

absolutely massively. Don't worry about whether they are calling it

:04:42.:04:45.

child-care credits or slightly changing National Insurance which I

:04:46.:04:49.

don't think they will do because it is very expensive, just look at the

:04:50.:04:54.

money. Follow the money. We will look more about the actual

:04:55.:04:58.

substances Polly was talking about. What do you make of the demeanour of

:04:59.:05:03.

John McDonnell? Do you buy it? The most interesting thing I have seen

:05:04.:05:07.

from any Labour politician since Jeremy Corbyn was elected in

:05:08.:05:12.

September, was that performance It was delivered more in sorrow than

:05:13.:05:18.

anger. If you were deciding whether to support tax credits, had John

:05:19.:05:24.

McDonnell waded in and shouted at the government on a moral angle you

:05:25.:05:28.

would have done the natural thing and regressed towards supporting

:05:29.:05:31.

your own government. Instead, he made it as easy as possible by

:05:32.:05:35.

behaving as magnanimously as possible to corral Conservatives and

:05:36.:05:41.

people on the Labour side against the tax credit policies. I wonder if

:05:42.:05:45.

that is something to look out for, and element of vertical deftness and

:05:46.:05:52.

subtle touch which we might not have expected from an I do logically

:05:53.:05:59.

committed Chancellor. I thought it was embarrassing. If you make a bad

:06:00.:06:07.

mistake you're better off apologising than doing a U-turn

:06:08.:06:11.

Refusing to do a U-turn gets you into more trouble in the long term.

:06:12.:06:16.

Perhaps the Chancellor is about to find that out! We will return to

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Labour. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday with

:06:19.:06:20.

Momentum, the new Labour grassroots organisation set up in the wake

:06:21.:06:22.

of his victory It's claimed one aim,

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already being plotted, is to de-select moderate Labour MPs

:06:25.:06:27.

and Momentum could be helped by major changes to constituency

:06:28.:06:30.

boundaries. He is a member

:06:31.:06:32.

of the strange organisation that That is almost exactly what some

:06:33.:06:41.

Labour MPs are worried about. New lines on electoral maps

:06:42.:06:46.

and plotting. Fears of a purge and a surge to

:06:47.:06:50.

the left were hardly soothed by comments from Jeremy Corbyn's

:06:51.:06:54.

newly appointed director of strategy and communications just a few weeks

:06:55.:06:57.

before he took on the job. The Tories are planning to bring

:06:58.:07:05.

in new boundaries for constituencies around the country

:07:06.:07:07.

and that will mean there will have to be re-selections, new selection

:07:08.:07:10.

procedures to pick Labour candidates for those constituencies, because at

:07:11.:07:12.

the moment, the Parliamentary Labour Party is

:07:13.:07:15.

not only far to the right but it is to the right of public

:07:16.:07:18.

opinion on lots of key issues, although they talk about

:07:19.:07:23.

electability all the time, so there needs to be some

:07:24.:07:26.

recalibration of that. We're

:07:27.:07:30.

at a point where there are several Labour MPs in the seats around the

:07:31.:07:35.

Common whose boundaries are going to Among them,

:07:36.:07:38.

the decidedly non-Corbynite Chuka Umunna, who, according to one

:07:39.:07:41.

expert on these things, could find himself forced to seek

:07:42.:07:44.

reselection at the next election. In areas such as a lot

:07:45.:07:50.

of metropolitan England and London, where the boundary changes are most

:07:51.:07:53.

radical, there is more scope The new boundaries could look very

:07:54.:07:58.

different again by the time they are published in

:07:59.:08:02.

2018 because of the reduction in the Analysis for this programme,

:08:03.:08:05.

based on the latest boundary proposals of 2012, suggest that MPs

:08:06.:08:11.

like Liam Byrne, Chris Leslie and Tristram Hunt could face significant

:08:12.:08:16.

changes to their current seats. Just looking at England, of

:08:17.:08:22.

the 206 seats Labour currently hold, 54 constituencies are likely

:08:23.:08:25.

to change by more than 40%. That is more than double the

:08:26.:08:33.

proportion of Tory seats affected. There are some in the Parliamentary

:08:34.:08:37.

Labour Party who are worried. The Sunday Politics has spoken to

:08:38.:08:40.

a number of MPs, including a former minister, who say this

:08:41.:08:42.

could lead to mandatory reselection by the back door, a means of getting

:08:43.:08:45.

rid of the faces that do not fit. I think my colleagues are

:08:46.:08:51.

right to worry about this. We have had an influx

:08:52.:08:54.

of people joining the party, some of them probably were expelled

:08:55.:08:57.

in years gone by, in actual fact. Many of them will certainly be

:08:58.:09:02.

on the far left of the party. They will be Jeremy Corbyn

:09:03.:09:06.

supporters and they will be making a decision, because of boundary

:09:07.:09:09.

stages, they will be making a decision on who should be their

:09:10.:09:11.

Labour parliamentary candidate. It is fair to say they might not

:09:12.:09:15.

pick more moderate MPs Frank Field arrived back in

:09:16.:09:18.

Merseyside confident he can survive Another veteran Labour MP agrees

:09:19.:09:24.

that boundary changes are bringing back old memories when members of

:09:25.:09:29.

his own party tried to replace him He says MPs this time

:09:30.:09:34.

should be prepared. There will be a large group, I would

:09:35.:09:40.

hope, in Parliament, of MPs, who will, if colleagues are unfairly

:09:41.:09:43.

treated, encourage their colleagues to stand in by-elections, to stand

:09:44.:09:48.

as independent Labour candidates, and a large number of us,

:09:49.:09:53.

including myself, would go It is a capital offence, to campaign

:09:54.:10:00.

for somebody standing against an official Labour candidate, but if

:10:01.:10:06.

enough of us go, they cannot pick The current Labour rules, introduced

:10:07.:10:09.

in 2013, state that an MP with a substantial territorial interest

:10:10.:10:14.

in a new constituency may seek A substantial territorial interest

:10:15.:10:17.

is defined as 40% or more These rules will be updated after

:10:18.:10:24.

the next boundary review but I've been told by members of Labour's

:10:25.:10:31.

National Executive Committee that there are categorically no moves to

:10:32.:10:34.

change them. Local party members will decide

:10:35.:10:38.

whether they want to stick within existing Labour MPs,

:10:39.:10:42.

and I think they pretty much will do in nearly every case, probably every

:10:43.:10:46.

single case, I would have thought. So essentially people

:10:47.:10:49.

are just overreacting? People are nervous because we're

:10:50.:10:52.

going to have MP up against MP It will be the same in the Tory

:10:53.:10:55.

party as well. The Tory party are going to have MP

:10:56.:10:59.

up against MP, so you can understand why people are going to feel nervous

:11:00.:11:03.

and unsure about that, but people shouldn't feel nervous about

:11:04.:11:06.

whether the rules are changing. For some MPs, the more pressing

:11:07.:11:10.

concern is what they perceive as Tory gerrymandering, which is what

:11:11.:11:13.

this rally yesterday was about. The first nationally coordinated set

:11:14.:11:17.

of events organised by Momentum Following the death of

:11:18.:11:25.

Michael Meacher MP, there will be a by-election within

:11:26.:11:28.

the next few months. It will be a gauge of Mr Corbyn s

:11:29.:11:31.

leadership, and of whether these new members

:11:32.:11:35.

really can and will influence what And with me now former Mayor of

:11:36.:11:38.

London, Labour's Ken Livingstone. Our moderate Labour MPs under threat

:11:39.:11:53.

in the new Corbyn Labour Party? I don't think so. Jeremy is very

:11:54.:11:59.

inclusive. He has said they will not bring back automatic reselection. I

:12:00.:12:02.

was challenged by the right-winger in my constituency and I think they

:12:03.:12:08.

had a right to do that. That there may be mandatory reselection with

:12:09.:12:11.

these boundary changes because they will require a large number of

:12:12.:12:16.

Labour MPs to seek re-election or even new seats. Should that be seen

:12:17.:12:20.

as an opportunity to shape Labour more in Mr Corbyn's image? I think

:12:21.:12:25.

we should see a party or Mr Corbyn's image, because under Blair

:12:26.:12:29.

and Brown, parties were not allowed to select whoever they had wanted

:12:30.:12:33.

which had been the case for the 90 years before. You had to choose from

:12:34.:12:40.

an approved list. Therefore, the Parliamentary Labour Party was

:12:41.:12:42.

significantly to the right of the rank-and-file and leadership. I

:12:43.:12:44.

think most MPs will engage with new members. They will moderate their

:12:45.:12:48.

criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn if he is seen to be doing quite well. You

:12:49.:12:52.

just had Simon Danczuk on there and he said it is all very threatening.

:12:53.:12:56.

He has already announced he might stand against Jeremy Corbyn next

:12:57.:13:02.

year. He has a right to do so, that is policy. Would you encourage

:13:03.:13:06.

constituencies to choose more left-wing candidates? If your local

:13:07.:13:10.

MP is undermined in Jeremy Corbyn, opposing the policies, the

:13:11.:13:17.

anti-austerities measures, people should have a right to say, I would

:13:18.:13:21.

like to have an MP who reflects my views. It should not be a job for

:13:22.:13:28.

life. So you agree with Momentum, this new campaign? I have joined it.

:13:29.:13:32.

That MPs who regularly do finally Corbyn whip should face deselection

:13:33.:13:39.

procedures? Yes, if you have 10 0 new members joined your local party

:13:40.:13:43.

because they supported Jeremy Corbyn's policies, you have got an

:13:44.:13:47.

MP completely undermining, that is right that they should have the

:13:48.:13:51.

right to challenge that. It does not necessarily mean they should win. I

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was challenged because people thought I was too left wing. They

:13:55.:13:59.

had the right to do that. According to a memo leaked to the Evening

:14:00.:14:04.

Standard, MPs like Harriet Harman, Chuka Umunna and Stella Creasy said

:14:05.:14:10.

they could be ousted after a surge in new activists joined their

:14:11.:14:15.

party. Should they be worried? If you are prepared to reach out and

:14:16.:14:19.

accept that this huge doubling of our mothership has changed the

:14:20.:14:22.

nature of the Labour Party then that is fine. I remember during the Blair

:14:23.:14:26.

years, over half of Labour Party members left because you could not

:14:27.:14:30.

select the. You have no real say. What we have got now is a genuinely

:14:31.:14:35.

democratic party open to debate Jeremy has not been an autocrat He

:14:36.:14:39.

is not expelling people or kicking them out of the shadow cabinet

:14:40.:14:51.

because they disagree with him. People are shocked by this. But this

:14:52.:14:54.

is how politics should be. Sitting members who are on the centre or the

:14:55.:14:57.

right of the Labour Party, they should move left to reflect the

:14:58.:14:59.

views of the new activists who are joining or face deselection? And why

:15:00.:15:02.

not? That is inevitable. If you have had a doubling of the Labour Party

:15:03.:15:05.

membership because people see there is a real chance of change, and if

:15:06.:15:13.

Jeremy Corbyn looks like he's doing a good job, you would not expect,

:15:14.:15:16.

everyday I see my MP undermining the Labour leadership, opposing the

:15:17.:15:18.

policies that we came into politics for, people must have the right to

:15:19.:15:23.

have an influence over these things. You began by saying Mr Corbyn has

:15:24.:15:29.

been very inclusive and it a broad church still... He is much nicer

:15:30.:15:34.

than I am! Well people will judge that. If that is the case, was wise

:15:35.:15:39.

of Mr Corbyn to appoint Seamus Milne, an admirer of Stalinist

:15:40.:15:44.

Russia and a long-standing critic of the West as his new director of

:15:45.:15:45.

communication? Kid will do a very good job. I do

:15:46.:15:56.

not think you can describe him as a Stalinist. I chose my words, an

:15:57.:16:04.

admirer of Josef Stalin's Russia. There are plenty of courts to show

:16:05.:16:10.

that. For all its brutalities and failures, it delivered job security,

:16:11.:16:13.

huge advances in social and gender equality. That happens to be true.

:16:14.:16:20.

Is it wise to appoint an? Yes. There is no mention in that article of the

:16:21.:16:25.

25 million people who died under Stalin. He does not need to, because

:16:26.:16:30.

we all now about that. Most people do not know that in the 1930s, the

:16:31.:16:35.

communist economy grew more than any other in history. It was wise to

:16:36.:16:41.

appointing? Absolutely. Was it wise of Mr Corbyn to appoint Andrew

:16:42.:16:46.

Fisher rises policy adviser, who has called leading Labour moderates scum

:16:47.:16:50.

bags? He may have to moderate that now that he is in the job using

:16:51.:16:57.

People have strong views. A Labour web once threatened to push me up

:16:58.:17:00.

against a wall and smacked me in the face if I voted against the party

:17:01.:17:07.

line. People get very tense. In what sense are the appointments that I

:17:08.:17:10.

have spoken about evidence that Mr Corbyn wants to reach out to the

:17:11.:17:16.

centre and other parts of the party? He has done that in terms of

:17:17.:17:22.

the Shadow Cabinet keep it together. According to Mr Milne, that is just

:17:23.:17:27.

a stabilisation Cabinet. Changes are coming. There are was changes. If

:17:28.:17:31.

people like Yvette Cooper change their mind and want to come back in,

:17:32.:17:35.

I am sure that Jeremy will bring them back. When I was leader of the

:17:36.:17:40.

GLC, all the leading right-wingers, we tried to get them involved, to do

:17:41.:17:48.

good work. You never have so much talent in a political party you can

:17:49.:17:50.

afford to avoid talented people because you have a disagreement with

:17:51.:17:56.

them. Andrew Fisher will be a key player in the Corbyn Cabinet. Hilary

:17:57.:18:03.

Benn, who fought a Croydon constituency, Andrew Fisher tweeted

:18:04.:18:06.

that people should not fought for her, they should vote for the torque

:18:07.:18:18.

steer a candidate from class war. He should not have said that. If you

:18:19.:18:22.

want to kick people out, there are lots of Labour Party members who did

:18:23.:18:27.

not fought Mike for me because they disagreed with me. That is the

:18:28.:18:31.

reality. I thought if you were a member of the Labour Party, you

:18:32.:18:36.

cannot be seen to support a member in an election against another

:18:37.:18:41.

party. He clearly did. He will do that, right down the line. He has

:18:42.:18:46.

not withdrawn it. I have supported people I completely disagree with

:18:47.:18:49.

because however much I disagree with the right wing Labour MP, he will

:18:50.:18:56.

still be better than a Tory. What it wise of Mr Corbyn to appoint John

:18:57.:19:00.

McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor Was he not too much of a left-wing

:19:01.:19:04.

troublemaker even for you at the GLC? He was my chair of finance no.

:19:05.:19:12.

We had a falling out over the Thatcher capping thing. Every year

:19:13.:19:18.

he produced a balanced budget. He never had a penny of borrowing to

:19:19.:19:24.

cover revenue spending. Most people in -- most people think everyone on

:19:25.:19:28.

the left spends and borrows and all that. But our background in

:19:29.:19:32.

government, we used to balance budgets. I think he understands

:19:33.:19:36.

budget is much more than any other Shadow Chancellor we have had. The

:19:37.:19:41.

death of Michael Meacher means the first by-election of the Corbyn

:19:42.:19:46.

either. It is a safe Labour seat, but in by-elections, there is

:19:47.:19:51.

probably no such thing. Should Labour now pick someone to fly the

:19:52.:19:55.

Jeremy Corbyn flag in this by-election? No, the local party

:19:56.:20:00.

should be free to choose whoever they want. I oppose Tony Blair

:20:01.:20:06.

imposing people on local parties. If they want to pick someone who is a

:20:07.:20:09.

critic of Jeremy Corbyn, they should be free to do so. Or a supporter. It

:20:10.:20:17.

has been reported to date and in the Sunday Times, in both the Scottish

:20:18.:20:22.

and London edition, that the Scottish Labour Party could well now

:20:23.:20:26.

be allowed to go its own way. We get the impression that a decision has

:20:27.:20:30.

been taken to do that, that it could have its own policy, it will run its

:20:31.:20:36.

own affairs, it may need money from London, what policies could be

:20:37.:20:39.

different on Trident and welfare from the English Labour Party. Would

:20:40.:20:44.

you support that? Absolutely. That is the Labour Party we had before

:20:45.:20:50.

Tony Blair. I was on the executive. The National party had no say in the

:20:51.:20:56.

GLC policies. The Scottish Labour Party did not have different

:20:57.:20:59.

policies. They should have the freedom to do so and reflect local

:21:00.:21:04.

views. We do not want this to be like North Korea when everything is

:21:05.:21:09.

run from the centre. If people in Scotland have a slightly different

:21:10.:21:13.

approach to people in London or East Anglia, let them do that. You would

:21:14.:21:18.

welcome that? Yes. Ken Livingstone, always good to talk to you. Thank

:21:19.:21:20.

you. Now,

:21:21.:21:22.

it's been compared to the poll tax But, so far, the Chancellor is not

:21:23.:21:24.

for turning on his plans to cut tax credits, which is likely to cause

:21:25.:21:29.

problems for millions of working poor, despite the growing chorus

:21:30.:21:31.

of disapproval from his own side. Mr Osborne says the reforms,

:21:32.:21:35.

which could see 3.3 million families lose an average of ?1,300 from next

:21:36.:21:44.

April are a key component of his The current system of working and

:21:45.:21:58.

child tax credits was introduced by the then Labour Chancellor Gordon

:21:59.:22:02.

Brown in 2003 as a means of redistributing income high paying

:22:03.:22:08.

money to families with children or working people on lolling comes

:22:09.:22:11.

About 4.5 million people claimed them with current estimates showing

:22:12.:22:17.

that around ?30 billion a year are spent on tax credits. That is 1 % of

:22:18.:22:23.

the total welfare budget. Before the election the Conservatives promised

:22:24.:22:26.

to find ?12 billion of welfare cuts and a month after polling day, try

:22:27.:22:31.

minister David Cameron said he would end the ridiculous merry-go-round of

:22:32.:22:34.

taxing low earners then paying them back in benefits. Chancellor George

:22:35.:22:41.

Osborne used a summer budget in July to announce plans to reduce the

:22:42.:22:48.

income threshold and tax credits from ?6,420 to ?3850. The government

:22:49.:22:53.

will also increase the proportion of credits it takes away above this

:22:54.:22:57.

threshold, a mechanism called the tape parade, from 41% to 48%. In

:22:58.:23:06.

September, MPs backed the chancellors plan voting to bring in

:23:07.:23:13.

the tax credit cuts next April. On Monday, the House of Lords gets its

:23:14.:23:16.

turn to vote on the matter. Convention dictates that peers

:23:17.:23:23.

cannot reject bills that appeared in a government manifesto or financial

:23:24.:23:27.

in content, but one tier has tabled what is known as a fatal motion

:23:28.:23:33.

which, if back, we'd see the tax credit changes rejected. With 2 9

:23:34.:23:41.

Conservatives coming up against 212 Labour and 176 cross bench, the

:23:42.:23:45.

government falls well short of the majority it needs in the upper house

:23:46.:23:48.

to defeat a united opposition. And joining me now

:23:49.:23:51.

from Kendall is the Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, and from

:23:52.:23:53.

Nottingham, the former Conservative Welcome to both of you. Ken Clarke,

:23:54.:24:02.

let me come to you first. Are people on tax credits drivers or shirkers?

:24:03.:24:07.

They are strivers, of course they are, but you've got to have a

:24:08.:24:11.

sensible way of alleviating poverty among them. They hope I'd have a

:24:12.:24:15.

budget and the welfare state is to alleviate poverty but when you have

:24:16.:24:24.

got to reform it, and when you're trying to take ?12 billion of it

:24:25.:24:31.

because of the national economy it is time for common-sense. We were

:24:32.:24:38.

subsidising low pay economy, and we have got to move away from that In

:24:39.:24:42.

what were you alleviating poverty among some of the lowest paid people

:24:43.:24:48.

in the country by making them, a single earner, a couple, or lone

:24:49.:24:55.

parent with two kids, by making them ?1500 worse off? We're increasing

:24:56.:25:00.

the support for childcare, as the Chancellor says. We are introducing

:25:01.:25:04.

a living wage. That is taken into account in those figures. What is

:25:05.:25:09.

not calculable is how far the present strong labour market will

:25:10.:25:13.

lead wages to continue to go up The idea that in top of your employer's

:25:14.:25:19.

pay, you get government pay on top, and it was introduced so you would

:25:20.:25:25.

say, thank you Mr Brown, I will vote Labour. He put it up again before

:25:26.:25:30.

the 2010 election as well. This is not a valuable feature of the

:25:31.:25:36.

system. George has included other features in the system. There has

:25:37.:25:40.

never been a better time to do it because real incomes are going up by

:25:41.:25:44.

3% a year, employment is high and you can only tackle this difficult

:25:45.:25:48.

question when you have a strong labour market. I need to bring in

:25:49.:25:55.

Tim Farron. Tax credits cost 30,000,000,000-a-year. It is almost

:25:56.:25:58.

15% of the total welfare budget more than that if you take pensions

:25:59.:26:02.

out of the welfare budget. Is that too much and would you cut it in a

:26:03.:26:07.

different way? I think Ken Clarke is right to say we need to balance the

:26:08.:26:12.

budget, we agree on that definitely. The question is how do you do it.

:26:13.:26:17.

The tax credit cuts will hit 4. million children, 3 million families

:26:18.:26:23.

in this country, an average of 1300 a year they cannot afford. They will

:26:24.:26:27.

save the taxpayer or the Exchequer net savings of about 4.5 billion.

:26:28.:26:32.

This is about choices because there are other ways you could have found

:26:33.:26:36.

that money. The government did have decided not to give away ?1 billion

:26:37.:26:42.

of inheritance tax cuts. Or give away ?2.5 billion of Corporation tax

:26:43.:26:47.

cuts to big companies. You could have chosen the Liberal Democrat

:26:48.:26:51.

policy of taxing high-value wealth in terms of expensive properties.

:26:52.:26:55.

That would have managed the 4.5 billion they were going to save You

:26:56.:27:01.

are committed. You said in your speech as Liberal Democrat leader to

:27:02.:27:05.

the conference, that you're committed to balancing the current

:27:06.:27:10.

budget, which is the same as abolishing the structural deficit.

:27:11.:27:14.

How do you do that without 12 billion welfare cuts? What you have

:27:15.:27:19.

said gets you there, but it gets you nowhere near 12 billion. I have just

:27:20.:27:25.

explain some of the ways we would have done it. The Tory party chose

:27:26.:27:31.

to commit to ?12 billion worth of welfare savings. It did not need to

:27:32.:27:36.

do so. Remember, not a single tax rise in the Conservative's plans

:27:37.:27:41.

affect the wealthy. What we are talking about is effectively a tax

:27:42.:27:44.

rise targeted on the poorest people in this country. The phrase

:27:45.:27:49.

hard-working families is bandied about by politicians but people who

:27:50.:27:52.

worked almost every are a god sends in order to put food on the table

:27:53.:27:57.

for their kids and exist just above the breadline or the definition of

:27:58.:28:02.

hard-working families. We are committed that we should be

:28:03.:28:05.

supporting those people and we should block those cut. The

:28:06.:28:09.

Resolution Foundation is headed by a former Cabinet colleague of yours.

:28:10.:28:13.

It says that more than 1 million households will face an average loss

:28:14.:28:18.

of more than ?1300. Boris Johnson has warned of a political disaster

:28:19.:28:22.

if you carry on the way you're going. The Sun newspaper says you're

:28:23.:28:26.

hammering those who work hard and are paid little. Why do your natural

:28:27.:28:33.

allies not even support you? We live in the day and age of short-term,

:28:34.:28:38.

populist politics. It is unfortunately the case that

:28:39.:28:41.

chancellors cannot do anything without it being immediately

:28:42.:28:46.

unpopular and lobbied against. None of those people or in any way

:28:47.:28:50.

indicating anything they would cut in the welfare area that would

:28:51.:28:53.

contribute to the very serious problem we still have, which

:28:54.:28:57.

threatens our economic future if we do not tackle it, of just running a

:28:58.:29:04.

deficit all the time. What you must not do is support employers who are

:29:05.:29:10.

paying low pay, therefore not improving their productivity, we are

:29:11.:29:13.

beginning to move into a more sensible economy where employers pay

:29:14.:29:20.

pay and we are steadily the labour market is strengthening and pay is

:29:21.:29:26.

going up. If you're going to reform, you have got to take the tough

:29:27.:29:33.

decisions. Do you have to do it as brutally as many people think you

:29:34.:29:37.

are? After all, you're raising the inheritance tax threshold. That will

:29:38.:29:43.

go to the richest 5% in the country. You have cut the top rate of tax,

:29:44.:29:48.

which goes to the highest earners. You're taking a massive chunk of

:29:49.:29:52.

income out of the lowest paid. Why do you not postpone some of that? At

:29:53.:30:01.

least make the change more gentle. I quite understand. The instinct of

:30:02.:30:04.

most people is do not take money away from them, do not make me pay

:30:05.:30:10.

for it, they are rich people, particularly rich foreigners. Take

:30:11.:30:14.

the money from the big companies. If it was as easy as that, every

:30:15.:30:20.

Chancellor would do that. If you're Chancellor, you have to balance what

:30:21.:30:22.

you're doing to get that healthy economy that will give a good living

:30:23.:30:28.

to our children and grandchildren. Nowadays, everybody expects the

:30:29.:30:31.

budget to be full unpopular measures. In my day, people were

:30:32.:30:36.

more used to the Chancellor having to do the difficult things, and the

:30:37.:30:40.

judge you, not by the headlines after you have managed to get it

:30:41.:30:46.

through, the judge you by whether it looks as though it is working in

:30:47.:30:49.

three years' time. Tim Farron, what is your response?

:30:50.:30:57.

This is about choices. Ken Clarke and I agree with each other in a way

:30:58.:31:03.

that people leading the Labour Party don't agree, that you need to

:31:04.:31:08.

balance the books. You don't clear the deficit. At the moment, what we

:31:09.:31:12.

are asking the poorest paid people in our country to do is to pay the

:31:13.:31:16.

price that the Conservative government is choosing not to ask

:31:17.:31:20.

wealthy people to do. Absolutely balance the books and clear the

:31:21.:31:23.

deficit, but don't do it by taking way from the poorest paid hardest

:31:24.:31:28.

working families in this country which will cripple them, and at the

:31:29.:31:33.

same time, Andrew, as you have just said, you give an inheritance tax

:31:34.:31:38.

cut which benefits the 5% of the most wealthy. This is about choices

:31:39.:31:43.

and it is about poor choices. David Cameron one week before the election

:31:44.:31:46.

promised he would not be touching tax credits then he did. He has

:31:47.:31:52.

backed that mandate as a consequence. Many of his own

:31:53.:31:56.

backbenchers, Heidi Allen, I don't want to embarrass her with her

:31:57.:31:59.

stunning speech about the poorest paid people, and we are well within

:32:00.:32:05.

our rights to block this move. This brings beyond the House of Lords.

:32:06.:32:08.

They may block it in some form tomorrow. You are encouraging your

:32:09.:32:12.

Lib Dem peers to do just that and you have 111 of them which is about

:32:13.:32:18.

12 times more than you have MPs You described the Lords as a system

:32:19.:32:25.

which is rotten to the core and allows unelected unaccountable

:32:26.:32:28.

people to think they are above the law. Why would you use that

:32:29.:32:35.

institution to thwart the policy of the democratically elected

:32:36.:32:40.

government? First of all, I am the one party leader whose party in the

:32:41.:32:44.

last parliament did everything in our power to reform and

:32:45.:32:49.

democratisation of the. Labour and Conservatives thwarted us. In this

:32:50.:32:53.

Parliament, we have what we have. Rotten to the core, you said.

:32:54.:32:59.

Indeed. You're asking me to make a choice now about whether I should

:33:00.:33:03.

bout a convention or whether I stand up for 3 million low-paid families

:33:04.:33:06.

in this country, I back the low paid families. We have a set of

:33:07.:33:09.

mechanisms in Parliament available to us and it is right that we should

:33:10.:33:13.

make use of all of them to prevent the government from doing something

:33:14.:33:17.

which they did not put in their manifesto and will impoverish 3

:33:18.:33:20.

million very hard-working, just above the bread line or just below

:33:21.:33:24.

the breadline families in this country. I make no apologies for

:33:25.:33:27.

using whatever mechanisms are available to do that. Mr Clarke

:33:28.:33:33.

hasn't your government got yourself into a right mess? You are styling

:33:34.:33:38.

yourselves as the workers party that here it is, unelected Lords having

:33:39.:33:43.

to come to the rescue of some of the lowest paid workers in the country.

:33:44.:33:49.

It does not look good, does it? We won the election because working

:33:50.:33:52.

people of this country could see we were getting steadily better off.

:33:53.:33:56.

You did not tell them you would cut their tax credits. We said we would

:33:57.:34:01.

take ?12 million out of welfare .. You did not tell them you were going

:34:02.:34:05.

to cut their tax credits. It was not in the manifesto. I totally agree

:34:06.:34:12.

with Tim, we should have a reformed elected House of Lords. I voted with

:34:13.:34:16.

him in the last Parliament. It was backbenchers who wrecked it. It was

:34:17.:34:22.

a great pity. I have to say, if the Labour and Liberal peers decide to

:34:23.:34:26.

start casting party political votes when they see the government is

:34:27.:34:34.

having a bit of difficulty, in order to knock out ?4 billion worth of

:34:35.:34:38.

public expenditure savings, it is the end. We really will have to

:34:39.:34:42.

reform and do something about it. The Italians have just cut back the

:34:43.:34:46.

power of their Senate because they had chaotic arrangements before The

:34:47.:34:51.

Americans cannot govern the country because Congress stops the president

:34:52.:34:55.

from doing anything. We cannot have a huge number of peers we have. .

:34:56.:35:02.

Let me just dropped this and ask you, if the Lords does thwart the

:35:03.:35:06.

elected government tomorrow, should Mr Cameron create a more of new

:35:07.:35:13.

peers? That is what Lloyd George threatened to do. I know that. There

:35:14.:35:18.

are ridiculously too many member is already so it would make it even

:35:19.:35:22.

more ridiculous. Personally, I would table the bill we had in the last

:35:23.:35:26.

Parliament and tried to explain to our backbenchers that Britain is

:35:27.:35:31.

ready for parliamentary democracy of the sensible kind. Actually, I think

:35:32.:35:34.

there are a lot of Labour and Liberal peers who would agree with

:35:35.:35:38.

me. I think a lot of people would try to stop the peers from casting

:35:39.:35:43.

silly votes in this debate tomorrow. Mr Farren, a final

:35:44.:35:47.

question to you, it is the first time we have had a chance to talk to

:35:48.:35:51.

you since becoming Lib Dems leader, it is early days but Mark your own

:35:52.:35:57.

card, how is it going so far? We are 20,000 members are up since the

:35:58.:36:04.

election. I thought your membership was down from June? It peaked in

:36:05.:36:13.

June and it is now lower in October. No, it is still going up. The

:36:14.:36:18.

reality is it is still early days. We are in opposition with a much

:36:19.:36:22.

smaller of them -- smaller number of MPs. We have to stand up for the

:36:23.:36:27.

real liberal heart in British politics. We have seen the Labour

:36:28.:36:30.

Party making an interesting choice, shall we say, that they are entitled

:36:31.:36:35.

to make. That creates a vast space on the progressively competent

:36:36.:36:45.

progressive sphere in politics. We understand what really matters over

:36:46.:36:48.

the tax credit issue are the people who will suffer. I am bothered about

:36:49.:36:52.

people in my patch across the country on 12 or 13 grand a year who

:36:53.:36:56.

do not know how they will feed their kids. The way back for the liberal

:36:57.:37:00.

Democrats is to focus on the people, stand up to the outsiders and

:37:01.:37:05.

challenge the government. You will finally get some questions at PMQs

:37:06.:37:09.

because you lost that role to the Scottish Nationalists. Are you going

:37:10.:37:15.

to crowd source your questions? Are -- would you like us to e-mail some?

:37:16.:37:19.

Via macro I have been writing to Jeremy and he has not asked any of

:37:20.:37:23.

mine yet so I will have to use my own on Wednesday. I have some

:37:24.:37:29.

thoughts in mind. The other thing to remember is PMQs is not the most

:37:30.:37:32.

important thing in the world. There are other ways of getting your

:37:33.:37:36.

message across and that is why I am going to Lesbos tomorrow to

:37:37.:37:38.

highlight the refugee crisis and try and get the government to human

:37:39.:37:44.

player in stance on that position as well -- humanitarian stance. It may

:37:45.:37:48.

not be the most important but it is live on BBC Two on the Daily

:37:49.:37:52.

Politics every Wednesday. I hope our viewers will join us and see you in

:37:53.:37:55.

action. Thank you both. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:56.:37:57.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:58.:38:00.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:38:01.:38:02.

the Week Ahead. First though,

:38:03.:38:05.

the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello and welcome to

:38:06.:38:14.

the London part of the show. Coming up later, part of the

:38:15.:38:18.

government's anti-terrorism strategy is under fire from a Labour council

:38:19.:38:20.

for damaging community cohesion Well, I'm joined for the duration

:38:21.:38:24.

of the show by Mike Gapes, Labour MP for Ilford South, and just

:38:25.:38:30.

up the road, Andrew Rosindell, Now first up, a new report out this

:38:31.:38:33.

week claims that the number of London's working poor has increased

:38:34.:38:40.

by 70% in the last ten years, and that the cuts in working tax credits

:38:41.:38:44.

to families next April could make That is a massive number

:38:45.:38:49.

of children that are going to be worse off as a result of those tax

:38:50.:38:56.

credit cuts, Andrew Rosindell? The reality is that we want to move

:38:57.:38:59.

to a different type of economy, so that we pay less tax,

:39:00.:39:03.

but earn more in wages. That is what

:39:04.:39:06.

the government is trying to do. The problem is tax credits

:39:07.:39:11.

are getting out of control. They have effectively almost become

:39:12.:39:16.

like another way We have to be realistic

:39:17.:39:18.

about this and think long-term. What is best for the country is to

:39:19.:39:22.

get the country back to work, George Osborne

:39:23.:39:28.

and his supporters like you have Do you think there should be

:39:29.:39:32.

a longer transitional period or do you think there should be more cash

:39:33.:39:36.

put in to mitigate some of those I believe that

:39:37.:39:39.

the principle is right but it is how you apply the policy, and certainly

:39:40.:39:44.

if there are people who are going to be in real difficulties as a result,

:39:45.:39:48.

the government needs to look I suspect the government are looking

:39:49.:39:51.

at how they can mitigate I think he will do something

:39:52.:39:55.

but what he will do at this stage, One

:39:56.:40:02.

of the biggest problems is housing. That has been a long-term issue

:40:03.:40:07.

over the last ten years. It is too expensive to live

:40:08.:40:11.

in London for a lot I have got massive problems

:40:12.:40:14.

in my constituency, private rents are going up, and the cost

:40:15.:40:24.

of housing benefit is a massive way in which the state is subsidising

:40:25.:40:29.

private landlords, as opposed to Do you think there should be more

:40:30.:40:32.

social housing or do you think something needs to be done to bring

:40:33.:40:37.

down the rents I think we need both a landlord

:40:38.:40:40.

registration scheme, which some local authorities have already done

:40:41.:40:47.

on their own, for the quality of the properties, but we also need to make

:40:48.:40:50.

sure that there is far more social housing, and local authorities are

:40:51.:40:55.

beginning to build properties again, as my borough Redbridge is

:40:56.:41:00.

beginning to do. Why is the government focusing

:41:01.:41:02.

so much on home ownership when it is clear that when you look

:41:03.:41:05.

at the poverty figures, and the in-work poverty figures of people

:41:06.:41:09.

living in London, housing makes up Would it not be better to

:41:10.:41:13.

build more social housing? There is a culture

:41:14.:41:20.

in this country that people want to People aspire to be homeowners

:41:21.:41:25.

and that is a good thing. It is right that we should also

:41:26.:41:30.

ensure that people who are not able to buy their own home, there is

:41:31.:41:33.

adequate social housing available. Is there adequate social

:41:34.:41:36.

housing available? Well, Mike is saying that Redbridge

:41:37.:41:38.

is doing it. We have the lowest amount

:41:39.:41:41.

of social housing of any borough. We only had a Labour council

:41:42.:41:46.

since last year. We have a massive problem

:41:47.:41:49.

in Redbridge, a large number of people living in poor quality

:41:50.:41:52.

private rented accommodation. Haverinng is different

:41:53.:41:56.

but nevertheless we are starting to A key part of the government's

:41:57.:41:58.

anti-terrorism strategy has been criticised by a Labour council

:41:59.:42:04.

for damaging community cohesion So, does the Conservative attempt to

:42:05.:42:07.

combat terrorism really risk making us more likely to be victims

:42:08.:42:14.

of another attack? The attacks of 7th July 2005

:42:15.:42:17.

prompted a change in the UK's In their aftermath, the government

:42:18.:42:25.

launched a programme called Prevent which aimed at stopping more people

:42:26.:42:30.

turning to violence through Nowhere lost more people in 7/7 than

:42:31.:42:32.

the London borough of Islington but last week the local council passed

:42:33.:42:39.

a motion which criticised Prevent and pledged to lobby the government

:42:40.:42:42.

for changes, promising... The motion was proposed

:42:43.:42:56.

by the sole Green councillor in this Labour-controlled authority,

:42:57.:42:58.

who says she was moved to act after I understand a child was talking

:42:59.:43:01.

about eco-terrorism in a French class, and rather than being praised

:43:02.:43:07.

for his excellent use of vocabulary, he found himself a couple

:43:08.:43:13.

of days later being questioned Parents I have been speaking to

:43:14.:43:15.

throughout my ward since this incident, whether they are parents

:43:16.:43:23.

of young children of primary age or older children, they are frightened,

:43:24.:43:27.

worried that their children are going to be reported for saying

:43:28.:43:31.

something taken out of context. Instead, the council say they

:43:32.:43:35.

favour a strategy of what they As an example,

:43:36.:43:38.

they pointed us in the direction Once the home of Abu Hamza,

:43:39.:43:42.

now serving a life sentence A decade ago, the police,

:43:43.:43:46.

the local council and the then Labour government asked a new group

:43:47.:43:52.

to take over running the mosque They told me they turned it

:43:53.:43:56.

from an empty hub of extremism with just 50 worshippers to a thriving

:43:57.:43:59.

and open community centre. However, the mosque leadership feel

:44:00.:44:05.

that under the current government, the support they used to enjoy has

:44:06.:44:07.

gone. We, here in Finsbury Park,

:44:08.:44:12.

have been labelled as extremists. We have been before

:44:13.:44:16.

in that situation This puts off young people from

:44:17.:44:19.

talking and engaging and discussing This puts off imams of mosques,

:44:20.:44:25.

to speak out and to engage with these young people, to try and teach

:44:26.:44:32.

them what Islam is about, away from extremism and radicalisation,

:44:33.:44:38.

away from what they hear and watch While the mosque wins plaudits from

:44:39.:44:41.

the council and the local MP, Jeremy Corbyn, who has even held surgeries

:44:42.:44:51.

here, it is not without controversy. Just this week, the Sun newspaper

:44:52.:44:54.

ran this piece about Just this week, the Sun newspaper

:44:55.:44:57.

ran this piece about According to Rashad Ali,

:44:58.:45:05.

who has worked in the government's Prevent programme, the experience of

:45:06.:45:09.

the Finsbury Park mosque reflects a broader trend of how the coalition

:45:10.:45:11.

and Conservative governments take a fundamentally different approach

:45:12.:45:14.

to their Labour predecessors. There are other organisations

:45:15.:45:17.

which had the ear of government and were very influential and are now

:45:18.:45:27.

seen as not just influential any more, but they are seen as people

:45:28.:45:30.

almost who the government cannot be I think to

:45:31.:45:33.

a large extent organisations like that have been taken outside

:45:34.:45:39.

of the political space. A decade on from 7/7, the UK is yet

:45:40.:45:44.

to see a repeat of terrorist attacks on the same scale, but both Labour

:45:45.:45:48.

and the Conservatives are accused of having had an anti-terror policy

:45:49.:45:51.

that potentially increases Joining us, Miqdaad Versi,

:45:52.:45:53.

Assistant Secretary General Have you been frozen out by

:45:54.:45:59.

the government as an organisation? I think that Muslim organisations

:46:00.:46:05.

across the UK, including the Muslim Council of Britain, have not

:46:06.:46:09.

really been engaged with by this government, in spite of us trying

:46:10.:46:12.

and providing attempts to solve the problems of terrorism, we have

:46:13.:46:20.

not been engaged with at all. Do you think that is

:46:21.:46:22.

because the government has felt that perhaps some extremist groups

:46:23.:46:26.

and some extremist preachers have not been confronted enough

:46:27.:46:28.

by organisations like you, and If we want to confront extremism

:46:29.:46:31.

and terrorism within any community, the first thing that needs to

:46:32.:46:38.

happen is to engage with the broad spectrum of those communities to

:46:39.:46:41.

understand what is going on. The Muslim Council of Britain is

:46:42.:46:44.

the largest umbrella body in the UK You would say you're very

:46:45.:46:48.

representative of the Muslim We are a representative

:46:49.:46:52.

of the Muslim committee. We cannot say we are the only one

:46:53.:46:57.

but we are the largest of this kind. It is unusual the government has

:46:58.:47:04.

chosen not to work with broad Muslim mainstream groups, but those that

:47:05.:47:08.

say yes to what it wants to hear. The government and David Cameron

:47:09.:47:11.

have made much of wanting to engage with groups that uphold British

:47:12.:47:15.

values, rightly or wrongly. Would you not blame the government

:47:16.:47:21.

for not wanting to engage with the Muslim Council of Britain, who

:47:22.:47:24.

refuse to attend Holocaust Memorial Day, and who have described

:47:25.:47:27.

homosexuality as unacceptable, as a group that does not uphold

:47:28.:47:32.

the same British values the We have to be careful

:47:33.:47:34.

about how we use these terms. The Education Secretary voted

:47:35.:47:39.

against same-sex marriage We are in a situation where there

:47:40.:47:41.

seems to be different targets The Muslim Council of Britain does

:47:42.:47:49.

attend Holocaust Memorial Day. There were different questions

:47:50.:47:54.

behind the scenes about how that should reflect a broader range

:47:55.:47:59.

of genocides, but that is not the point, the Muslim Council of

:48:00.:48:02.

Britain does do these things, as do If we want to confront terrorism,

:48:03.:48:05.

we should do so by engaging those Andrew Rosindell, it is surely

:48:06.:48:10.

counter-productive not to be fully engaged with an organisation like

:48:11.:48:14.

the Muslim Council of Great Britain? I agree with what you have

:48:15.:48:18.

just said, actually. We should engage with everyone

:48:19.:48:20.

across civil society. You cannot solve problems as deep

:48:21.:48:24.

as this without engaging with everyone, however,

:48:25.:48:29.

there is a strong feeling that we in this country have a responsibility

:48:30.:48:31.

to uphold British values, and that What in your mind

:48:32.:48:37.

constitutes British values? Tolerance for a start,

:48:38.:48:44.

respect for people of all religions and backgrounds, and respect

:48:45.:48:46.

for national traditions. Christian faith is the established

:48:47.:48:51.

faith of this country and our laws and traditions are based on that,

:48:52.:48:55.

all religions and denominations are equal under the law in this country,

:48:56.:48:58.

and rightly so, but there is a feeling that there are some sections

:48:59.:49:02.

of the Muslim community that are not standing strongly enough

:49:03.:49:06.

against some of the extremists that Was it right

:49:07.:49:09.

for the government to cut ties with It is not

:49:10.:49:15.

my decision to have done that. I am personally bemused

:49:16.:49:18.

by why that has happened. There needs to be

:49:19.:49:22.

a dialogue with everybody. This fear

:49:23.:49:30.

of climate that people are worried about being generated in some parts

:49:31.:49:32.

of the country and in London, a young child being questioned

:49:33.:49:34.

for talking about eco-terrorism Yes,

:49:35.:49:37.

it seems like someone has completely A young man

:49:38.:49:40.

in Blackburn was recently sentenced for being involved

:49:41.:49:52.

in a terrorist plot in Australia. The fact is, we do have

:49:53.:49:54.

radicalisation of young people, men and women, boys and girls, and that

:49:55.:49:57.

is an issue for the whole community. We have to be very careful that we

:49:58.:50:02.

do not say, it is the Muslim community who has to deal with

:50:03.:50:05.

the problems of grooming young people, radicalisation,

:50:06.:50:08.

going to Syria or whatever. It is a responsibility for all

:50:09.:50:10.

of us, One of those values is

:50:11.:50:12.

the equality of men and women, opposition to homophobia,

:50:13.:50:19.

anti-Semitism, Islamophobia Do you think the Muslim Council

:50:20.:50:22.

of Britain foreshortened those? Over the years I have had a mixed

:50:23.:50:30.

relationship with some of the groups It is an umbrella organisation

:50:31.:50:33.

and overall I think they should be engaged with but clearly

:50:34.:50:40.

in any umbrella organisation, you have people who are more radical

:50:41.:50:42.

and more moderate. Is Prevent counter-productive

:50:43.:50:44.

in your mind? You have to realise that

:50:45.:50:46.

when you have a strategy that tries to counter-extremism without

:50:47.:50:53.

defining it properly, it results in a conflation of extremism

:50:54.:50:57.

and terrorism, we have a problem. Young children were mentioned

:50:58.:51:00.

in the report, but throughout the country, young

:51:01.:51:05.

children are suddenly being told Young people who are asking

:51:06.:51:07.

questions in physics classes, which happen to be

:51:08.:51:14.

about nuclear fission, are suddenly Even three-year-old toddlers

:51:15.:51:18.

are going down this route. More and more

:51:19.:51:23.

of this is taking place across the It leads to communities finding

:51:24.:51:28.

themselves as separate, being looked If you want equality,

:51:29.:51:34.

I would have thought that would be something that everybody would be

:51:35.:51:39.

able to adhere to and support. Would you describe the Labour

:51:40.:51:42.

leader, Jeremy Corbyn, as a mainstream politician or

:51:43.:51:44.

someone on the extreme? Everybody who is a leader of a

:51:45.:51:47.

mainstream political party in this But there are of course views within

:51:48.:51:50.

political parties, and my position is well known, I do

:51:51.:51:55.

not agree with Jeremy on everything, but nevertheless, I wouldn't say

:51:56.:51:58.

he's an extremist, absolutely not. It is estimated 35%

:51:59.:52:03.

of live music venues in London have London mayor Boris Johnson set up

:52:04.:52:07.

a task force to look at how smaller The task force has

:52:08.:52:15.

now reported back. In recent years,

:52:16.:52:17.

the number of London grassroots live Between 2007-2015, over 50 clubs

:52:18.:52:23.

closed their doors, meaning that the capital now has just 88

:52:24.:52:33.

grassroots venues still operating. This trend has sparked concern

:52:34.:52:36.

among musicians. You play the small places on the way

:52:37.:52:38.

up, but it seems to be a problem nowadays that there is only really

:52:39.:52:47.

tiny pubs or huge arenas to play. This week, the mayor's music

:52:48.:52:59.

venues task force released this Amongst its recommendations is

:53:00.:53:02.

the creation of a so-called night mayor and

:53:03.:53:15.

putting the onus on developers to for soundproofing if developments

:53:16.:53:18.

are built next to a music venue Will this report help save London's

:53:19.:53:21.

grassroots music industry, And we're joined by Auro Foxcroft,

:53:22.:53:23.

owner of the music club Village Underground, who is on the

:53:24.:53:31.

mayor's music venues task force Why are so many grassroots

:53:32.:53:35.

music venues closing? There are lots of reasons why venues

:53:36.:53:38.

close down, some of them are legislative issues, some to do with

:53:39.:53:43.

development, some to do with rising rents and rates, some around

:53:44.:53:46.

the lack of reinvestment into that grassroots sector

:53:47.:53:50.

of the music industry, but the important thing is that

:53:51.:53:55.

the solution is not complicated and the report that we have generated

:53:56.:53:58.

lays out a suite of recommendations How culturally important are

:53:59.:54:02.

they to a city like London? They are fantastically important

:54:03.:54:08.

from a cultural and social point of view, from the point of view

:54:09.:54:13.

of people's own lives and enjoyment of music, and also, London is the

:54:14.:54:16.

most visited city, or place in the I think music tourism

:54:17.:54:22.

in London is something around 6 0 million this year, and all

:54:23.:54:29.

of this work contributes a lot to It generates a lot of money,

:54:30.:54:32.

but on the other hand, they are Is it a case of charging people more

:54:33.:54:46.

to come in and enjoy these venues or We are talking specifically about

:54:47.:54:54.

the grassroots end of the music industry that generates the talent

:54:55.:54:58.

pipeline that goes through and At that grassroots level, increasing

:54:59.:55:00.

the cost is very difficult, young people going to venues, they do not

:55:01.:55:09.

have a lot of disposable income especially at the moment, so that

:55:10.:55:12.

is hard, but modest decreases in business rates and other support

:55:13.:55:15.

from the government would be very What about a mayor

:55:16.:55:17.

for night-time London? That is a great idea,

:55:18.:55:24.

this so-called night mayor. It is an interesting proposition

:55:25.:55:26.

and one that has been borrowed from the Netherlands who have night

:55:27.:55:34.

mayors in most of their major cities who help to balance out the needs

:55:35.:55:41.

of the night-time economy. Is this something that

:55:42.:55:44.

must be maintained? Michael Dugher, who is

:55:45.:55:49.

the shadow Secretary of State, the new one, was part of the support

:55:50.:55:55.

and launch, I understand it. As a jazz fan and a member

:55:56.:55:59.

of the all-party Parliamentary jazz group, I was at live jazz last night

:56:00.:56:03.

in my constituency, in a very small venue, the Royal Air

:56:04.:56:07.

Force Association Club, which does As far as I'm concerned,

:56:08.:56:10.

it is great. When did you last go to a gig,

:56:11.:56:13.

Andrew? You can leave Romford every

:56:14.:56:16.

so often. This is part of our culture,

:56:17.:56:25.

our national heritage. The music industry is really

:56:26.:56:29.

important, it has been for We have to try and find ways to help

:56:30.:56:32.

them continue to survive, Would you be prepared to put

:56:33.:56:42.

your money where your mouth is as far as this is concerned, and

:56:43.:56:48.

these are grassroots music venues? The whole issue

:56:49.:56:51.

of business rates needs looking at. There are lots of businesses

:56:52.:56:53.

that are struggling and do not Where you have got certain niche

:56:54.:56:56.

areas that could benefit from a review of business rates

:56:57.:57:02.

perhaps a lower rate or to be exempt for a short period, if we can

:57:03.:57:06.

help businesses such as the music industry in that way,

:57:07.:57:10.

we should not rule that out, Ideas for night mayor,

:57:11.:57:12.

the night-time mayor? I hope that Sadiq Khan will be able

:57:13.:57:15.

to do it as part of his overall job, Time for the rest of

:57:16.:57:21.

the political news in 60 Seconds. Protesters against the proposed

:57:22.:57:39.

third runway demonstrated in Whitehall against the Cabinet

:57:40.:57:43.

Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, who had written to senior politicians

:57:44.:57:46.

asking them not to speak out against Heathrow expansion

:57:47.:57:49.

in case it sparked legal challenges According to the Independent

:57:50.:57:51.

Police Complaints Commission, body cameras worn by armed Met police

:57:52.:57:59.

officers are unfit for purpose. It said the position of the cameras

:58:00.:58:03.

on officers' bodies obscured and The Olympic Park Orbit Tower lost

:58:04.:58:06.

half a million in the last 12 months, according to the London

:58:07.:58:13.

Legacy Development Corporation. Labour leader of the

:58:14.:58:15.

London Assembly, Len Duvall, called it a pointless monument

:58:16.:58:18.

at vast taxpayer expense. Statistics from the Department

:58:19.:58:22.

of the Environment show that London councils dominate the table

:58:23.:58:24.

for the highest number Newham had more than 70,000

:58:25.:58:26.

incidents in 2014-15, followed by Let's pick up on a couple

:58:27.:58:33.

of those issues. The monument at Olympic Park,

:58:34.:58:45.

what is your view? From next season, as a season ticket

:58:46.:58:48.

holder at West Ham, I will be I do not know if it is

:58:49.:58:51.

a white elephant, but even if it is not in operation in terms of paid

:58:52.:58:59.

visitors, it would still be a I do not particularly like it, I

:59:00.:59:02.

drive past it, but it is a landmark Len Duvall says it is

:59:03.:59:16.

a vanity project. It probably was, but nevertheless,

:59:17.:59:21.

it will cost money to take it down, Let's move onto one

:59:22.:59:24.

of the other issues, Heathrow. The Cabinet Secretary had warned

:59:25.:59:30.

ministers not to discuss options That was around conference season,

:59:31.:59:33.

probably because of fear What is your view

:59:34.:59:39.

about the third runway? Clearly ministers have to take legal

:59:40.:59:44.

advice about what they say We can speak out

:59:45.:59:46.

and express our views. I think that Heathrow, to expand it,

:59:47.:59:54.

probably that is what will happen at the end of the day,

:59:55.:00:01.

but I think Boris's idea of thinking long-term and having

:00:02.:00:06.

a brand-new airport long-term, is Heathrow in the short term is

:00:07.:00:08.

probably the best way forward. Crossrail is going to go through

:00:09.:00:13.

my constituency and Andrew's. We're in

:00:14.:00:16.

the position that journey times will be halved from north-east London

:00:17.:00:19.

and Essex into Heathrow airport For my point of view,

:00:20.:00:21.

I support Heathrow rather than going to a remote Gatwick which will take

:00:22.:00:28.

an hour and three quarters. Stanstead I'm not sure about

:00:29.:00:31.

but the priority is to get this decision on Heathrow at last,

:00:32.:00:37.

because frankly, the hours that you spend stacking to go into Heathrow,

:00:38.:00:42.

it is full to capacity now. Do you think they might fudge it

:00:43.:00:52.

because it is We should not,

:00:53.:00:54.

we should get on with the job, We've been elected to government,

:00:55.:00:57.

it is our power to make that choice now and we've got to do what is

:00:58.:01:02.

right for London and the quicker we get on with the

:01:03.:01:04.

job, the better I think it will be. Thank you to both of you

:01:05.:01:08.

for being my guests today, Andrew Rosindell and Mike Gapes, and with

:01:09.:01:11.

that, it is back to you, Andrew So a constitutional crisis

:01:12.:01:17.

looming over tax credits. A non-apology

:01:18.:01:19.

from Tony Blair over Iraq and more talk about the direction

:01:20.:01:21.

of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party Before we do that, an apology. I

:01:22.:01:36.

said Andrew Fisher, the new policy adviser to Jeremy Corbyn had urged

:01:37.:01:42.

people to vote for what I've described as the Trotskyite

:01:43.:01:46.

candidate. It has been pointed out to me that Class cat macro war is

:01:47.:01:56.

not Trotskyite, it is anarchist Either way, he got 65 votes so not

:01:57.:02:08.

that influential. What do you make of it all? Ken Livingstone said we

:02:09.:02:17.

should not go after moderate MPs that then he said we could. The

:02:18.:02:28.

person he cited was Simon Danczuk. There is this incredible gift that

:02:29.:02:31.

George Osborne has handed to those who would like to reselect Labour

:02:32.:02:36.

MPs which is the boundary review. It was meant to happen in the last

:02:37.:02:38.

Parliament, it will now happen in this Parliament. The night wing say

:02:39.:02:51.

they need to have reselection. John McDonnell said they will not do what

:02:52.:02:57.

was done in the 1980s but the Momentum group have been handed this

:02:58.:03:04.

gift. So they do not need boundaries election because so many seats will

:03:05.:03:09.

be thrown up in the air because of the cutting of MPs. It should not be

:03:10.:03:14.

surprising that someone who has won the Labour leadership by a huge

:03:15.:03:17.

majority and attracted new people into it, would want these new people

:03:18.:03:23.

to have an influence in his party and who his MPs are? The problem is

:03:24.:03:28.

it does not take a plot for the moderates to find themselves in

:03:29.:03:32.

trouble. The party has expanded so hugely and they are not all the old

:03:33.:03:38.

trots and militant tendencies. There are lots of new, young and indeed

:03:39.:03:44.

old, people who got alienated from Labour before, are on the left and

:03:45.:03:47.

are often quite politically naive, and if they are going to be making

:03:48.:03:52.

the selection, they may just instinctively go for a new left wing

:03:53.:03:57.

-- a more left-wing candidate, without anybody having to organise

:03:58.:04:02.

in the old Militant way. Some of the parties are three times the size

:04:03.:04:06.

they were before. These people will not necessarily know the sitting MP,

:04:07.:04:10.

they will not be the people who have been out wet Thursday nights with

:04:11.:04:12.

the clipboard doing the work, but they will be the people who come in

:04:13.:04:17.

when it comes selection time and make the vote. I think that does put

:04:18.:04:21.

a lot of these MPs at serious perils.

:04:22.:04:29.

Under Mr Livingstone's demeanour, he fundamentally said, if you are a

:04:30.:04:33.

sitting centrist Labour MP that either go with the flow, become a

:04:34.:04:38.

bit more left yourself, a bit more in tune with what Mr Corbyn and the

:04:39.:04:43.

activists want, or you could well face reselection. And I think what

:04:44.:04:47.

Ken Livingstone has noticed is that the right of the party, the

:04:48.:04:51.

moderates, have been incredibly pathetic at fighting back, not just

:04:52.:04:55.

against Corbyn is but over the last five years. We talk about the

:04:56.:04:59.

left-wing takeover of the party since May, you look at the candidate

:05:00.:05:04.

selection, the direction of the National policy Forum, the direction

:05:05.:05:07.

of the National executive committee, they have all taken a left-wing tilt

:05:08.:05:12.

post 2010. This is a slightly more extreme version of something which

:05:13.:05:17.

has been going on for half a decade. The right of the party have not

:05:18.:05:21.

fought back which is why I find it interesting that Frank Field has

:05:22.:05:24.

said we need to intensify our efforts and he is pro-those

:05:25.:05:30.

proposing the idea of provoking elections and having moderate

:05:31.:05:49.

candidates stand as elections. If you cause that amount of fuss, there

:05:50.:05:52.

is a limit to how far it can go Frank Field who nominated Jeremy

:05:53.:05:54.

Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party. I would suggest to you, Nick,

:05:55.:05:57.

if things can continue in the direction they are going, come the

:05:58.:06:00.

next Labour Party conference in the autumn of 2016, this will be from

:06:01.:06:04.

the NDC to the policy Forum, to the people of the conference, a very

:06:05.:06:11.

different Labour Party. The power of the Labour Party does not rest in

:06:12.:06:15.

the Parliamentary Labour Party. The power of the Labour Party rests in

:06:16.:06:21.

the membership. 59.7% of whom are elected Jeremy Corbyn. Some of the

:06:22.:06:25.

anti-Corbyn faction were delighted with themselves because they have

:06:26.:06:29.

managed to get some non-Corbyn people on the executive of the

:06:30.:06:33.

Labour Party, haven't we done well? To which you say, well done, guys,

:06:34.:06:37.

but you ain't got the power. The power is outside now. Let's move on

:06:38.:06:43.

to what the Lords will be doing tomorrow. The education secretary

:06:44.:06:47.

Nicky Morgan was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier this morning talking

:06:48.:06:50.

about that. This is what she had to say.

:06:51.:06:52.

I think the House of Lords, they should be very clear,

:06:53.:06:55.

Often they do make good points, but they are striking down 70%

:06:56.:06:59.

They have already made it more difficult for us on child care,

:07:00.:07:03.

for example, where they are going to slow down things.

:07:04.:07:06.

Child care is one of those things that people really

:07:07.:07:08.

Without going into specifics, what you're saying to the House

:07:09.:07:14.

of Lords is, be very, very careful before you do that, think

:07:15.:07:17.

I think they should be mindful of what they are doing.

:07:18.:07:21.

It is constitutionally unprecedented to strike

:07:22.:07:22.

down a statutory instrument on a taxation and spending matter.

:07:23.:07:26.

Well, of course, Polly, we live for constitutional crises, don't we I

:07:27.:07:35.

fear we may be disappointed? I think we may be but I wish they would blow

:07:36.:07:39.

the whole thing apart. If you have a government which has no intention of

:07:40.:07:42.

reforming the House of Lords whatsoever, 800 people in there I

:07:43.:07:47.

think that the Liberal Democrats, the Labour Party and anyone with any

:07:48.:07:50.

common sense in the House of Lords is entirely free to say, to hell

:07:51.:07:56.

with convention, we will vote as we feel. You can abolish us if you like

:07:57.:08:01.

and it would be a dam good thing if you did, but of course, because they

:08:02.:08:05.

love being there. Let's have another 200 because then

:08:06.:08:09.

we would overtake the Communist Party's then a recession in China.

:08:10.:08:19.

It would make Cameron look absurd. Maybe that would push us towards

:08:20.:08:22.

reform. Maybe people would say we cannot tolerate this. It looks as if

:08:23.:08:27.

he bishops are the ones who will come to the rescue. They say no

:08:28.:08:36.

fatal motions, let's just regret. They regret but they should rebel.

:08:37.:08:45.

If we did appoint as a nation even more unelected members of the upper

:08:46.:08:50.

chamber, I guess there is a possibility it really would seem

:08:51.:08:54.

more ludicrous to more people? And there is a rich British tradition of

:08:55.:08:59.

stuffing the Lords for political self interest which did not end well

:09:00.:09:04.

last time. I think there were a constitutional crisis, perversely it

:09:05.:09:06.

would suit the government in the short term, because it would muddy

:09:07.:09:12.

the issue of tax credits. It takes the attention of tax credits. They

:09:13.:09:18.

are the faster on a wicket with the issue of the Lords than tax credits.

:09:19.:09:25.

You are an unelected chamber of 10 billion people, I think we are the

:09:26.:09:27.

only four people in London not in the Lords and it is only a matter of

:09:28.:09:32.

time for you, Andrew! How do you know I have not been offered

:09:33.:09:36.

already? Lloyd George, there were the Conservative Lords being against

:09:37.:09:41.

the people's budget. This time the Lords should be rebelling on behalf

:09:42.:09:44.

of the people because they would be in favour... A progressive force.

:09:45.:09:52.

What is interesting is how close close we did come to constitutional

:09:53.:10:00.

crisis. Molly Meacher tabled a motion which would have killed them

:10:01.:10:07.

stone dead. A cross-party group said you cannot do this, we are not a

:10:08.:10:12.

vertical grip. I want to call this to a halt because I just see a clip

:10:13.:10:17.

of Mr Tony Blair who was on CNN this morning talking about the Iraq war.

:10:18.:10:23.

Whenever I am asked this, I can say that I apologise

:10:24.:10:26.

for the fact that the intelligence we received was wrong.

:10:27.:10:28.

Because even though he had used chemical weapons

:10:29.:10:30.

extensively against his own people, against others, the programme in the

:10:31.:10:33.

form that we thought it was did not exist in the way that we thought.

:10:34.:10:37.

I can apologise for that, I can also apologise, by the way,

:10:38.:10:42.

for some of the mistakes in planning, and certainly our mistake

:10:43.:10:46.

in our understanding of what would happen once you removed the regime.

:10:47.:10:51.

But I find it hard to apologise for removing Saddam.

:10:52.:10:55.

Even today, in 2015, it is better that he's not there

:10:56.:10:59.

We have only got a minute left. Polly, didn't we know all that? We

:11:00.:11:14.

knew that. Nothing new there. He will never apologise for conducting

:11:15.:11:18.

a war which killed a lot of people, including our own people. I don t

:11:19.:11:22.

think any leader can ever do that. I suppose a bit more straightforward

:11:23.:11:26.

than I apologise directly, but maybe a bit more straight? I think he

:11:27.:11:30.

might have trained as a barrister! I think he is preparing the ground for

:11:31.:11:34.

Wendy Chilcot report comes out. He knows where he will be criticised so

:11:35.:11:45.

he is neutralising that territory. -- when the Chilcot report comes

:11:46.:11:48.

out. For macro he will know what they say about you in advance by

:11:49.:11:52.

this bizarre process. He will know so is he preparing the ground? He

:11:53.:11:58.

apologised for the quality of the intelligence, not for an pin-up the

:11:59.:12:01.

intelligence he received. I wonder whether Chilcot will say bad

:12:02.:12:08.

intelligence is understandable but you chose to play up what

:12:09.:12:12.

intelligence you did receive and that is not quite what he said sorry

:12:13.:12:17.

for. And we know what Chilcot thinks about the intelligence because he

:12:18.:12:23.

was a member of the Butler enquiry who made the precise point, you

:12:24.:12:31.

stripped out the caveats. Being misled by bad intelligence is one

:12:32.:12:33.

thing and you could take that at face value if you are so inclined,

:12:34.:12:38.

knowing the intelligence was not as robust as you claimed it to be as a

:12:39.:12:44.

basis for war is entirely another? Never underestimate Tony Blair's

:12:45.:12:48.

ability to deceive himself. He wanted to believe it, he needed to

:12:49.:12:52.

believe it and he probably did believe it. That is why Lord Butler

:12:53.:12:56.

said after the publication of his report, he was astonished that no

:12:57.:13:01.

journalist said to him, and what do you think the Prime Minister should

:13:02.:13:05.

do now? Because he was pretty seriously critical of that stripping

:13:06.:13:10.

out of the caveats. A pity he did not say so at the time because we

:13:11.:13:14.

could have asked him. We can not get everything right.

:13:15.:13:16.

The Daily Politics is on at lunch time every weekday over

:13:17.:13:20.

on BBC Two and I'll be back here next week, same time, same place.

:13:21.:13:23.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:24.:13:25.

Eight anglers are thrown in the deep end. Argh!

:13:26.:14:19.

They'll compete in some of the most extreme places around the world

:14:20.:14:24.

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