Browse content similar to 19/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
As campaigning restarts after the tragic death of the MP | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
Jo Cox, we'll be looking at how the final days leading up | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
to Thursday's EU referendum could have a crucial impact | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
The polls suggest it's all still too close to call as voters | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
across the country make their final decision on whether the UK | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
is better off in or out, of the European Union. | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
And we'll be letting both campaigns go head to head | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
as they test the substance of each other's arguments. | :01:12. | :01:20. | |
In London this week we are in the south London borough | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
of Lambeth which is said in some recent polling to be one of the most | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
All that to come, and as we enter the final lap before the vote | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
which will shape the future of Britain, I'm joined by three | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
journalists who are just as in the dark about the likely | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
Janan Ganesh, Tom Newton Dunn and Janet Daley. | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
So campaigning is slowly beginning again after the death of the Labour | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
MP Jo Cox on Thursday, with events planed today by both | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
the official Remain and Leave groups. | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
And we've heard from big figures from either side on the | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
Labour leader and Remain supporter Jeremy Corbyn and Leave campaigner | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
and Conservative minister Michael Gove were both asked | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
Is there any kind of upper limit to immigration | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of labour and I think the free movement of labour means that | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
And so that means the European Union's appalling treatment | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
as well as the European Union, that is a problem. | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
So if you actually deliberately lower living standards and increase | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
poverty in certain countries in south-east or eastern Europe | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
then you are bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
Surely the issue is an anti-austerity, a growth package | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
When I've had the opportunity to talk about migration | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
during the course of this debate, I hope I have been very clear. | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
I am pro-migration but I believe that the way in which we secure | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
public support for the continued benefits that migration brings | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
and the way in which we secure public support for helping refugees | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
in need is if people feel that they can control the numbers | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
In Canada and Australia, two countries I very much admire, | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
they have control and therefore they are able both to welcome | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
Both sides talking about immigration. Mr Corbyn saying no | :03:26. | :03:37. | |
upper limit as long as we have free movement in the EU. That is honest | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
but will not be welcome perhaps by the Remain campaign. Not in the | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
slightest. The Leave campaign sleeper agent strikes against! It | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
was Alex Gregory thing to say and you can imagine Jeremy Corbyn being | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
piled full briefing notes before, saying whatever you do, don't talk | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
about people coming in their droves -- an extraordinary thing to say. He | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
threw that all in the bin and told it truthfully, as he saw it. It may | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
be the thing that precipitate a leadership challenge on him after | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
the referendum. Much talk of that but no evidence. What did you make | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
of it? I picked was a phenomenal performance for a covert agent for | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
the opposite side, not such a good performance for a sincere... It was | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
honest. It was candid but there is still an element of the country | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
which is pro-Remain in the most grudging way possible and his | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
approach might resonate a bit more with the more enthusiastic approach | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
from George Osborne or David Cameron. The most telling thing this | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
morning is when Nigel Farage was pressed on his controversial poster | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
on migration a few days ago and his response was to say that the | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
mainstream Leave campaign have come up with some pretty fruity posters | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
of their own on that subject. I think the beginnings of a split | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
between those sides of the Leave campaign, on the tone of how you | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
deal with the issue of migration, might open up even in the last few | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
days. Is there a difference to the tone of the campaign even when | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
talking about immigration? Or is it back to business as usual? The | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
substance of the argument remains the same Ulster Jeremy Corbyn put | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
his finger in the league right on it. As a consequence of the hideous | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
events of the last couple of days if that is a tendency to imply that | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
anybody associated with the Leave campaign, anybody who expresses | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
concerns about the numbers of immigrants, the flow of migration, | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
is somehow a right-wing extremist, a fascist who is, by implication, | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
associated with this crime. Jeremy Corbyn didn't do that. I am saying | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
there is a tone in the media coverage that implies guilt by | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
association with anybody who expresses concern about migration | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
and that is very dangerous because the surest way to drive people into | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
extraparliamentary opposition and dissidents is to make it clear that | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
no respectable politician will pick up their concerns. Did you agree | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
with Nigel Farage? Of course not. Nothing is wrong with pointing it | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
out. George Osborne has poured petrol on the plane is talking about | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
the echoes of 1930s. -- the flames. That is absurd. Your point about a | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
split in the Leave campaign, there have been a split from the off. | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
Right from the beginning. There is a difference in tone between... I was | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
going to say, the story last week was of a widening gap with Remain in | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
the lead that was the opinion polls, sorry, with Leave in the lead. If | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
you were on the Remain site, would you not take comfort from the polls | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
today? Especially from the fact that, according to YouGov, the mood | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
in the polls predate the killing of Jo Cox so you could conclusion there | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
is a structural reversion to continue to which often occurs | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
before big elections. -- continuity. But it does not help that you have | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
the lead of the opposition getting into a conversation about free | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
movement. One of the biggest poll findings, the number of people who | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
feel they would lose out material from Brexit has gone up from 23 233% | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
and that is how win. Plenty of opinion polls | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
in this morning's papers, as you'd expect in the last weekend | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
before the vote. There will be more to | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
come in the days ahead. Of course, polls are not quite | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
the holy grail these days, especially after their failure | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
to get the result right And the pollsters find referendums | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
even trickier than other votes. But imperfect as they may be, | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
they're what we've got and they ve told an interesting story | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
throughout the campaign. Polls conducted by phone like this | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
one back in May by Ipsos Mori have consistently put Remain ahead - | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
here with an 18-point lead, But signs things were changing | :08:30. | :08:31. | |
emerged at the end of last month, as one phone poll showed | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
Leave three points ahead. And just this Thursday the latest | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
Ipsos Mori survey caused a bit of a stir when it showed Leave | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
with a six-point lead. But those carried out online have | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
shown a different story, with the two sides level pegging | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
or with Leave ahead. Back in May before the 'purdah' | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
period which stopped the government taking part in the campaign, | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
one internet poll gave Almost a month later, | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
another online poll, this one by ICM, had | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
Leave five points ahead. But this YouGov survey is one | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
of four polls released overnight, suggesting both sides are neck | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
and neck, suggesting the result So that's the story told | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
by the polls in the months leading up to the referendum, | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
and just so you have the full YouGov for the Sunday Times puts | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
Remain on 44%, one point Another YouGov poll | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
for Good Morning Britain gives Opinium for the Observer has Leave | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
and Remain level pegging on 44% And Survation for the Mail | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
on Sunday, the only telephone poll today, has Remain | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
on 45% and Leave on 42%. Well, there's only one man we can | :09:52. | :10:01. | |
turn to explain what it all means - I speak of course of elections | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
expert John Curtice, Four new polls out this morning | :10:06. | :10:18. | |
What do they tell us? They certainly provide a degree of relief for David | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
Cameron and the remaining macro side after some dire polls last week | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
which almost unanimously suggested a sharp drop in support for Remain. | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
But it is perhaps an indication of just how tight this referendum has | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
become that three Internet polls between suggested it was 50-50 and | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
one telephone pole, which although it puts Remain back in the lead it | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
makes the lead much narrower that in any previous point in the campaign. | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
The fact that that is regarded as good news for them is an indication | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
of how much trouble they had got into seemingly. I think these polls | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
were taken at a time when it was too early, tell me if I'm wrong, to see | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
if the appalling tragedy of Jo Cox has had any impact on the campaign. | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
I think that is correct. The telephone poll was done entirely | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
afterwards, one of the YouGov polls was done mostly afterwards. They are | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
saying that the poll they did just before was already showing Remain | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
increasing and the one after shows that continuing further. Given that | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
there was a widespread expectation that perhaps Remain would start to | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
regain ground as people considered the possible risks of voting for | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
Leave, maybe this process had already kicked in and that is | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
explaining something of a movement back towards Remain, and it may not | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
necessarily have anything to do with the tragic murder of Jo Cox. There | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
is nothing in these polls to be able to pin it definitively on that | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
particular event. It is often said in referenda that there can be a | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
reversion to the status quo on the final day and that would be to vote | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
to remain. Is there any sign of that? And what can you tell us about | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
the undecideds? I saw some of the polling suggesting that those who | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
were undecided, if they vote, they are more likely to vote to remain | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
than to come out. Your first point, it is precisely whether that process | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
are people reverting back to the status quo is already kicking in and | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
this explains why the polls this weekend are somewhat better than | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
those in the week. And I think what it does seem to be the case, we are | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
asking is that movement to leave was a stone that was gathering more moss | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
and would continue this weekend and that clearly hadn't happened. Remain | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
may hope that people reverting back to the status quo might happen, that | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
is the first point. The second was about the significance of the | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
undecideds. The number of them going down and the people who have made up | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
their mind is going up but you are right that most polls find that the | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
people who don't know are most likely to vote first of all and the | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
second thing they are likely to do is to vote for Remain. And many of | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
the opinion polls published now are already including into their | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
headline tallies the reported votes of those who initially said they | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
were undecided but are asked a follow up squeeze question. We | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
should not say there is more ground to be made for Remain from that | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
particular phenomenon. Thank you. Only a few days to go, | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
so how will the campaigns try to win over undecided voters in the short | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
time they have remaining? Well, we're joined now from Somerset | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
by the former Lib Dem And here in the studio by the Labour | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
MP and Leave campaigner, Paddy Ashdown, do you get a sense | :14:04. | :14:20. | |
this weekend, if I can put it this way, that the Remain campaign is | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
back on track? Andrew Neil, you really want to bring me on straight | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
after John Curtis, my nemesis, and ask me to disagree with him! The | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
last time I had to eat my hat.. I disagreed with John twice on the | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
poll now and I have been wrong on every occasion and I'm delighted to | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
make my apologies to him on your programme. I don't know all the I | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
think what you're talking about with John about the undecided voters | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
maybe keep to this, if they vote or not, and if they do, will they vote | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
in favour of remaining as people predict. I don't think any of us | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
know. It is all within a margin of error, it is all to play for and it | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
looks to me, extremely tight. Perhaps a small shift in favour of | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
remaining macro but too small to be certain about it. | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
We got some austere stories about the economy from the Chancellor this | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
morning on ITV. In the final three days, starting tomorrow, three more | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
days of campaigning to go, is that the right way to go, or would you | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
advise the Remain campaign to start putting out a more positive message | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
about remaining in the EU? They are following a playbook they have | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
followed before. I'm not involved with the Remain campaign. My advice | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
to voters, when it comes to predictions on the economy, do not | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
listen to either side, listen to the independent voices whose job it is, | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
paid by all the nations on earth, to make judgments about the economic | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
consequences of our political actions. They have been wrong | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
before, but I'll be all wrong? Are only Mr Johnson and Mr Farage red? | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
People need to realise they are betting their jobs and the national | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
economy on this. Nothing is certain, but when you make the judgment, you | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
probably want to wear on your mind, not George Osborne's comments, or | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
Boris Johnson's from the other side, they will put the point as they want | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
to, but those independent voices, every single one of them, without | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
exception, who are independent of the campaign, the global experts on | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
this. This is not a conspiracy, it is a consensus, all of them say it | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
will seriously damage our economy. For most people, worried about their | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
jobs, that will be a more powerful factor in making your decision. More | :16:59. | :17:07. | |
powerful than the words of the opposition parties. Some in Remain | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
may not regard it as helpful, but Jeremy Corbyn told the BBC this | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
morning that with free movement within the EU, you can have no upper | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
limit on immigration. That was accurate and honest, wasn't it? One | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
thing you can be sure of, if we leave the European Union, you will | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
control immigration, but not anyway that the out campaigners claim. You | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
will trash the economy, far fewer jobs and no one will want to come | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
here. Your language is interesting. We will trash the economy, not that | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
we will not grow as fast, not that it will be better to stay in than | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
I'd, but we will trash the economy? Find another word, if you wish. We | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
are slowly recovering from recession. It has been massive pain | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
to get out of the mess we were in. The international economy, all of | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
those who comment, they say in big terms are small towns, the used | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
strong words are relatively more moderated ones, the agree it will | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
push us back into recession. You can use trash the economy or say we are | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
going back into recession. Creating those jobs, making Britain one of | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
the best economies in Europe, we would turn that around if we came | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
out. The consequences will be for jobs and businesses, the tax | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
revenues for the government that pays for our public services, it | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
will be very serious. John Mann immigration has been a big part of | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
the Leave campaign. Did the town get too hostile on immigration, did it | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
get to a robust? Yes, and Nigel Farage's poster is the worst example | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
of that. It would be better known if it had not been produced and he | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
withdrew it. It is unhelpful and inaccurate, irrelevant to the real | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
debate. So yes. What did you make of Jeremy Corbyn's remarks this morning | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
on immigration? The issues in working-class communities remain. | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
The issues are about pay, agency work, they are about people's hopes | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
for the future. When you have zero our contracts, when the health | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
services under pressure, and people see privatisation and cuts, the | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
Labour agenda on Friday, whatever the result, it has to get into that. | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
If it is a Leave vote, the first thing Labour could be doing was | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
demanding a dash was demanding an immediate end of the procurement | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
rules for public services. We could argue for an increase in public | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
servers pay, to stop the impact of the European Court rulings and | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
reinforcing agencies. It is agencies and the uncertainty in the labour | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
market that is really behind the strain that appears to be in working | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
-- the strength that appears to be in working-class communities for | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
Kallis leave. There are only three days to go. Is the biggest issue | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
immigration again? I hope not. I hope it is about hope and vision for | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
what kind of country we want in the future, and how best in the modern | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
technological age, where the computer has been invented, where we | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
order things online, where big developments will get even faster, | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
about how we deal with the whole of the world. I think that politicians, | :20:40. | :20:49. | |
MPs, all of us, myself included we remain extremely shaken by the | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
horrific murder of Jo Cox. I think there will be less campaigning, less | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
than there was. However strong people's views, they do not want to | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
be banging on doors at the current time. I think there will be less | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
politicians out and about and there would have been. There seems to be | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
of their weight behind Leave, last week, certainly, up until the | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
terrible events on Thursday. Do you get a sense that it could be | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
slipping away from you this weekend? From the polls last time, I would | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
have expected them to bounce back little bit. It will depend on | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
turnout. If there is a disproportionately high turnout in | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
the areas that do not normally vote, it will end up with a Leave vote. If | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
it is lower, it will be Remain. Turnout will decide. It is not | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
predictable. I hope the vast majority of people are voting and | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
whatever the result, we need to get together as a country, and get | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
behind that result. Paddy Ashdown... Would you allow me. It is a really | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
important statement that John Mann has made. I admire him very much and | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
I know he is just as interested in the future of this country as I am. | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
If it is the case that the terrible death of Jo Cox, who I campaigned | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
with on the issues of refugees and two I had massive admiration for, if | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
that has led to a change in tone, that would be welcome. The way that | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
John put his case and the way he moved away from the Nigel Farage | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
poster, which I find distasteful, if that is the tone of this campaign, I | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
do not think it will massively alter the result, but that last we will | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
have a campaign we can be proud of, one that I have felt so far | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
extremely ashamed about. High octane insults from both sides. Some of | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
that is because it is an internal civil war in the Tory party, and | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
they are always the worst. I was at the Oval the other day, and the man | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
came up to the In campaign and said they should be executed. If we can | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
get away from that, lower the tone and follow the approach John Mann is | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
suggesting, we will have a good debate, honoured democracy, and it's | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
essential qualities of tolerance and respect for others, rather than the | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
kind of thing we have had in recent weeks. Will the final three days of | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
the campaign be that different in tone? I think they will be. | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
Certainly members of Parliament will be careful on the language used I | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
hope on the Leave site, everyone will distance themselves from Nigel | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
Farage's poster and what lay behind that. I hope that on the Remain | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
side, people Walsh move away from the exaggerations that have taken | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
place. -- people will move. Paddy Ashdown. I agree with that as well. | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
We have dealt in hyperbole. The public does not trust either side. | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
If we can change that now, if we can come back to a statement of the | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
facts, maybe relying on independent opinions, I think the last few days | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
of the campaign will honour us. In the interests of our anti-hyperbole | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
Drive, can both Remain and Leave agree that when the French economic | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
minister says that if we vote to leave, we will be no more important | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
than Guernsey, we can file that under hyperbole? Yes, you can. You | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
may be able to file it under trash. Thank you. Thank you, John Mann we | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
can file that under hyperbole? Yes, we can. | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
Now, over the past two weeks we ve been letting the politicians | :24:48. | :24:49. | |
from either side of this referendum debate interrogate each other over | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
what they feel are the really big issues at stake. | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
Today, in the last of the series for now, we've invited | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
the Green Party MP and Remain campaigner Caroline Lucas | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
to question the Conservative minister and Leave campaigner | :25:00. | :25:01. | |
A little earlier, we tossed a coin to see who would go first. | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
Dominic was the winner, and he chose to answer | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
So, before we get started, let's have a listen to Domnic Raab | :25:11. | :25:19. | |
making the case for why undecided voters should vote to leave. | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
I am confident in you, the British people, and I am also | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
convinced with my head and my heart that we can only reach our full | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
Take some of the positives of leaving the EU, our small | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
businesses would be freed up from straitjacket regulation. | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
That is important for us because small businesses in this | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
We would be freed up to trade more energetically with the growth | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
markets of the future, from Asia to Latin America, | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
which will cut prices in the shops, and we will take back full control | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
over the money we give the EU, and our gross contribution is now | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
?350 million every week and certain to rise. | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
When it comes to immigration it can bring huge benefits, | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
but only if it is properly controlled. | :26:10. | :26:10. | |
Uncontrolled immigration from the EU has put pressure on jobs and wages, | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
and a massive strain on infrastructure, | :26:15. | :26:15. | |
The truth is, we cannot properly control immigration | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
There is something bigger in this debate, something | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
I want us to be masters of our own destiny. | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
I want it as a citizen, as a father, and I want it | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
With the majority of laws now made in Brussels by politicians | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
and bureaucrats not elected by or accountable to you, | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
we can only truly be masters of our own destiny if we vote | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
to leave the EU on 23rd June and take back democratic control. | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
And here are Caroline Lucas and Dominic Raab. | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
And just to explain the rules, Caroline has just five minutes | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
She can only ask questions, and he can only give answers. | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Thank you. Dominik, how much is Britain's net weekly contribution to | :27:05. | :27:15. | |
the EU? Weekly? The grosses 350 million and the net contribution is | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
around half of that. You will know that on this leaflet it says, let's | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
give NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week. Is that not | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
misleading because it is not the real figure? After was four months | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
of campaigning, people have understood there is a difference | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
between the gross contribution, and that includes some of the things | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
that the EU spends in this country on our behalf, without is being able | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
to prioritise, as well as the amount we give and do not see back. We want | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
the money back that the EU spends on itself. Do you accept this as a | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
wrong figure? We want control over the money we put in. It is the gross | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
contribution, I have made that clear. We never send the men from | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
the rebate, so we cannot possibly be spending that again on the NHS. Why | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
should anyone believe your side on the NHS, given that also some of the | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
key vote leave campaigners are people who want to privatise the | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
NHS? We have a wide range of politicians involved. We have heard | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
from John Mann. You're some of the most left-wing unions like our side. | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
In relation to what we said about the NHS, we would take 100 million | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
each week from the net contribution. That is the allocation that would be | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
made. When you get your salary from the House of Commons you get a gross | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
figure. There is a difference between that and your take-home pay. | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
There is no difference here. That is a misleading figure. I want to come | :28:51. | :28:52. | |
onto another poster. This is another one you will be familiar with. The | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
Leave side are sending at around the country. It says that Turkey I | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
leaving the EU. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate the | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
suggestion that Turkey is close to becoming a EU member? I think it is | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
right. Turkey is in the process of joining. British taxpayers are | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
already paying ?1.8 billion between 2014 and 2022 pave the way. We have | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
had politicians from Tony Blair to David Cameron making it clear that | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
the UK wants Turkey to join the EU. The UK has a veto, doesn't it? It | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
cannot possibly join in the UK uses that? It is a theoretical veto. It | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
is real. Can you imagine Cyprus not using its veto? From Tony Blair to | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
David Cameron, the consensus in this country is that Turkey should join | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
the EU. Our diplomats are working on measures to expedite that happening. | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
You have got to take into account the impact that would have. How many | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
of the 35 chapters or areas of compliance that Turkey would have to | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
fulfil before it could join, how many of those have been fulfilled in | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
the last 30 years they have been trying to join? Not many. It is one. | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
That is why it is worrying that in Whitehall and in Brussels they are | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
expediting Turkish membership. I was in the Foreign Office when the eight | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
countries from Central and eastern Europe were playing and in many of | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
those cases those criteria were ignored because the political will | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
was there and that is what we have now. Would you accept that this | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
leaflet is misleading because it sounds like it is going to happen | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
soon and it clearly isn't and Britain has a veto? Turkish | :30:46. | :30:53. | |
membership of the EU is a question of when and not if and in that case | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
it is right. Do you think is contributing to an atmosphere of | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
fear and hatred? The responsible thing is to talk about immigration | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
in a sensitive way and if you ignore it and you don't talk about the | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
costs of immigration, you're going to get far more fringe extremist | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
politics. That's not airbrush it out of the debate. I want to ask you, | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
key campaigners on the Leave side like Nigel Lawson and Nigel Farage | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
are at best climate sceptics is not climate deniers do you agree with | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
them? I'm not a climate sceptic at all. You were pleased to see the | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
agreement in Paris? Did the EU play a good role? The problem we have is | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
that 10% of CO2 emissions come from the EU and 90% from the rest of the | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
world so we need a global 08 regional approach. When I dealt with | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
a lot of global institutions, the problem is the EU is so inward | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
looking, we lose sight of the big picture and it is global not | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
regional. The EU played a key role in Paris in terms of ratcheting up | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
the ambition, yes or no? I don't think the ambition was particularly | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
high if you look at the Regent of the world outside the EU. We will | :32:05. | :32:06. | |
leave it there. -- the regions. Now it's the turn of Caroline | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
to be cross-examined. First, let's have a look | :32:10. | :32:11. | |
at her pitch to undecided voters, arguing the case | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
for a vote to remain. They are in their early 20s now | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
and this referendum goes to the heart of the kind of future | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
I want for them, that all of us want for our young | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
people and for Britain. Yet there is a risk that the outcome | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
will be decided by older generations if young people do not get | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
out and vote. The EU can help us build a safer, | :32:34. | :32:35. | |
better future, because the biggest challenges we face today | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
are by their very nature international, and are best tackled | :32:39. | :32:40. | |
by working hand-in-hand with our neighbours, | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
challenges like climate change, the refugee crisis, cross-border | :32:44. | :32:45. | |
crime and terrorism. The EU has been a force for good, | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
from guaranteeing workers' rights to protecting our shared environment | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
and helping to create jobs in every To turn our backs on this would be | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
to turn our backs on a safer, greener, more prosperous | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
and peaceful future. This referendum will define | :33:04. | :33:04. | |
what kind of country our children Do we want to be an isolated, | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
inward-looking country that cares only about what it can get out | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
of the rest of the world, or do we want to be a generous, | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
confident and outward-looking country that wants to be able | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
to play its part in making Let's not take our | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
country backwards. I taught my children that the right | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
thing to do when confronted with a challenge is to stand tall | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
and find a solution, That is why I am voting to remain | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
on June 23rd and I am So, as before, Dominic, | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
you have six minutes to question Caroline, | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
off you go. The organisation which is trying to | :33:47. | :33:58. | |
independently verify facts for the public estimate that around 50 to | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
60% of UK law that are now made in Brussels. How high would that | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
percentage have to be for you to be in favour of leaving the EU? It | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
depends why those rules are being made in Brussels. They are being | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
made because getting single market and we want to make sure there are | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
strong social and environmental standards, I'm delighted that they | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
are being made in Brussels, they should be come they are there | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
because we want to make sure cross-border problems like air | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
pollution are controlled because we have the ability to work | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
cross-border in the EU, absolutely it should be there. Looking at bold | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
figures does not help us. If 10 % of the laws were made in Brussels, | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
fined by you? It's a bit ridiculous to think that not a single domestic | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
law would be made in Britain. Things like housing and defence and some | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
issues are still decided at UK level. Where would you draw the | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
line? I'm trying to get a sense of when you think the tipping point | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
arrives when we have lost so much of our democracy. I would challenge the | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
premise of your question because the idea that the EU is fundamentally | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
more undemocratic than with Minster is wrong. The government that you | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
represent was elected with just 24% of the eligible vote, we have an | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
unelected House of Lords, at least in the European institutions we have | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
a parliament are through proportional representation and the | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
Council of ministers which means that if a democratic oversight of | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
the rules coming from Brussels. When the people watching the show get to | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
hold to account the 27th of heads of government in the European Council, | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
the 10th of thousands of bureaucrats and the 90% of MEPs not from | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
Britain? -- tens of thousands. There are fewer people working for the | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
interjections in Brussels than for Kent County Council for example -- | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
for the institutions. I would be the first to say that | :35:53. | :36:04. | |
EU should be more democratic and accountable, I would like to see the | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
European Parliament have more powers and the commission have fewer. To | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
suggest that would be a reason for leaving the EU is just wrong, we | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
need to be in there to fight it Net immigration from the EU was 184 000 | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
last year, that is the equivalent of a size city the size of Oxford. Do | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
you think there should be any limit on the volume of immigration from | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
the EU? Jeremy Corbyn said note this morning. I think it will be | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
self-regulating to an extent because people are coming because the other | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
fifth richest country in the world and there are jobs here. So we don't | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
need a limit? To have an arbitrary limit would be ineffective and we | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
have seen that from looking at your own promise to try to do by talking | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
about bringing it down to tens of thousands. There is no way he can do | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
that because there is more migration coming from outside the EU that | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
inside anyway. Take Romania and Bulgaria, the average wage around ?3 | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
an hour, we have a minimum rate of ?7.20 an hour, eight strong pull | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
factor which puts strains on the NHS and housing. If it up price worth | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
paying for staying in? There are so many assumptions in your question. | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
Most of the pressure on our housing and education and health system is | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
coming from a lack of investment and cuts on the government, not from | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
people coming in. In the NHS you are far more likely to be treated by | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
someone who has come from another European country. There are some | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
real challenges in there. I'm not saying that regression doesn't bring | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
pressures but we should be recognising there is a net economic | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
benefit that migrants bring with them so let's invest that properly | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
in the services in the area. The latest report by the EU's | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
anti-corruption body shows fraudulent abuse of EU funds at | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
record levels, they have been criticised for not even implementing | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
the first obligation under the UN's Convention against corruption. Under | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
our aid policy, we would not give a penny of taxpayers money to a poor | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
African country that would not comply with UN standards but we give | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
billions to the EU. Are you comfortable with that? I'm not | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
comfortable with corruption or fraud but I don't think the EU has a | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
monopoly on that and many times the accounts have not been able to be | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
signed up because individual nation states have not done their job | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
properly, it is government at fault, not the EU. In your election | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
manifesto you referred to the EU's unsustainable economic 's. Do you | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
still hold that view? I think it is unsustainable whether at EU level or | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
British level and the way to do that do that is to fight it in Britain | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
and in the EU. Thank you to both of you. | :38:48. | :38:48. | |
It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
talking about how the final week of this campaign could take shape. | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
First though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :39:03. | :39:16. | |
We're going to be continuing the discussion you've been having | :39:17. | :39:23. | |
about the impact of Jo Cox's death and considering which way | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
the capital will go in the EU referendum. | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
With me to do that, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
supporter of the Remain case, and Theresa Villiers, | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
Northern Ireland Secretary and Conservative MP | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
for Chipping Barnet, who is campaigning to leave. | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
Starting with the issue of security, both of you with high-profile jobs, | :39:41. | :39:52. | |
what does this incident mean for you now? It is such a huge tragedy, it | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
is just heartbreaking to think of two young children left without | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
their mother. What I'm conscious of in the job I do where I often meet | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
victims of attacks and murders and terrorism that took place many years | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
ago, the pain for them can be just as intense many years on so my heart | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
goes out to her family and I think all MPs will be reflecting on what | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
more we can do to make sure we are as safe as possible, that we do | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
everything we can to be secure but I don't think anybody will be pulling | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
back. We will still be out and about in the community despite the fact it | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
comes with risks. So there won't be a rush to new measures that cut MPs | :40:34. | :40:43. | |
off or away from the public? I don't think so but it is important for us | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
to reflect on what we can do individually to ensure that we are | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
as secure as possible and I think also we are aware that, whilst we | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
run risks, there are many other public servants like police officers | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
and prison officers for whom risks are sadly even more significant | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
Personally first, since being elected Mayor of London, had you had | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
to review your own security arrangements? I'm not allowed to | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
discuss it but there have been a lot of reviews and I'm quite clear that | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
I want to use public transport, meat or American Londoners and be out and | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
about as much as I can. -- I want to meet ordinary Londoners. It is part | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
of being a public servant to be accessible, it keeps you anchored | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
and you are in touch with voters and it is important. What none of us | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
want is for that to change as a consequence of Jo's tragic death. Do | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
you think it will not change? Risk assessment are done all the time. | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
What is important is that it is done on a case-by-case basis. You don't | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
throw the baby out with the bath water. One of the things that keeps | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
us anchored is that we speak to our constituents, to Londoners and other | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
people, they can approach us and that is important. Some have already | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
raised the issue about whether the police were in the process of | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
reviewing security for MPs. In your role and the close connection you | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
have with the Metropolitan Police, had you had discussions with the | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, about any further action is needed | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
to make MPs safer? My understanding is that the police are speaking to | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
all MPs to make sure there is a risk assessment undertaken but it is not | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
just us, it is our staff as well. It is important they are safe and we | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
have a duty of care to them when it comes to surgeries and deterring bad | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
people doing bad things and making sure our staff feel safe to work for | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
a politician. Have you spoken to the Commissioner about this specific | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
issue? We have been in touch since Jo's death. Is there anything they | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
are doing directly as a result? They are doing a lot of things, but you | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
will appreciate at this stage things are pretty fluid and I would not | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
want to inadvertently reveal stuff before discussing it with MPs. But | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
it is better assume that MPs are having conversations with police | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
officers? Absolutely and they don't need to wait for the police to | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
contact them, they should speak to the police and the Palace authority | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
to make sure they feel safe in order to do their duty but also their | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
staff and family as well. And a question of tone, is there too much | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
hatred in the public discourse of late? I think it is a concern that, | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
particularly on social media, people use the cloak of anonymity to say | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
really poisonous and unpleasant and aggressive things about political | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
figures. I think this is a reminder that the vast majority of people who | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
go into public office do so for the rest of motives. People fully | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
acknowledge that in the case of Jo Cox. She believed in what she was | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
doing, she was doing it for the good of society and the vast majority of | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
MPs do it for the same reason. Is there too much hatred? People have | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
to make argument robustly. The vast majority of the public are decent | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
and law-abiding and lovely. We must be tested, it is right to hold us to | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
account, we love to debate, dare I say argue but the tone is important | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
and I am concerned that in the recent weeks and months the tone is | :44:31. | :44:32. | |
one where it encourages an environment of hatred. It is a | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
poisonous atmosphere and if that could lead to people being | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
encouraged or incited to behave in a hateful way. Turning to Europe, we | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
will come onto the detail in a moment, but what clinches it for the | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
Remain site in the coming days? I am a firm believer at looking at the | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
evidence and the expert advice and as far as I'm concerned in the next | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
few days, my job and those of us who want us to remain in the EU is to | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
remind voters of the evidence and what the experts say. Remaining | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
means jobs, trade, investment, lower prices. Leaving the lead in the | :45:14. | :45:15. | |
dark. Democracy is at the heart of this. | :45:16. | :45:25. | |
As a member of the EU, whoever you vote for at the general election, | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
there are many things you cannot change. By far the safer option is | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
to take that democratic control back over making laws in a run country. | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
-- in our own country. Last week, we reported | :45:42. | :45:43. | |
from Havering, on the outskirts of the capital, reputed to be one | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
of the most Eurosceptic This week, we've gone to Lambeth, | :45:48. | :45:49. | |
where the instinct to remain Andrew Cryan is in Brixton | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
with more details. Yes, that is right. This comes down | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
to a piece of research by the polling company YouGov. They asked | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
80,000 people around the country, I really big number, their views on | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
the European Union. They find that the strongest views for out were in | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
the London Borough of Havering. We were there at that's -- we were | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
there last week. This week we are at the other end of the skill, in | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
Lambeth, I'd side the Ritzy Cinema. They won to leave more than any | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
other place in England. We have been asking quite? -- they want to leave. | :46:32. | :46:44. | |
For the last few weeks, the polls have been sailing this way and that. | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
But there has been one near constant. | :46:48. | :46:49. | |
Whatever the headline national figure, London shows up as wanting | :46:50. | :46:51. | |
If the polls are to be believed that supporter is particularly | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
concentrated in a certain type of London borough, | :46:56. | :46:57. | |
which is near the middle of the city, relatively | :46:58. | :46:59. | |
Places like Camden, Islington, Hackney, Southwark and so on. | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
According to one bit of research, there is one London borough | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
which is more pro-Remain than anywhere else in England | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
In the heart of the borough is Brixton, sometimes said to be | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
the symbolic centre of black Britain. | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
When Nelson Mandela and Muhammad Ali visited, | :47:19. | :47:19. | |
So, in 2016, will it also become the beating heart | :47:20. | :47:48. | |
I have been walking around Brixton market for about an hour. | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
We have met a couple of ins, a couple of outs, a lot of people | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
who did not want to be filmed, somebody who did not know | :47:57. | :47:58. | |
there was a referendum on, somebody who did not vote, | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
somebody who did not understand the question. | :48:02. | :48:02. | |
It is pretty fair to say that election fever is yet | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
Are you swayed by the arguments on either side? | :48:06. | :48:14. | |
I do not listen to anything, to be honest. | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
If this really is the Remain camp's heartland, it could be in trouble. | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
But luckily for inners, a 50 minute drive up the road | :48:23. | :48:24. | |
in Kennington, we met up with campaigners having | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
On the tube just now, two people approached me, | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
That was coming down and nobody normally talks to each other | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
on the tube so that is quite something in London. | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
We have been campaigning every day in this area. | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
We feel incredibly strongly to put out the Labour Party message that | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
Labour believes Britain is stronger in Europe. | :48:45. | :48:45. | |
We have done this so many times we have run out of leaflets. | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
We just spotted these guys on the way to our latest campaign | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
session and I thought I would grab some of theirs. | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
Who are these people who are so keenly snapping up | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
There might be a clue back up the road in Brixton again. | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
Just around the corner from its traditional market | :49:02. | :49:03. | |
is a new arrival, Pop Brixton, a box park full of fresh young | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
businesses, social enterprises, hip things to do and | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
Do you see negative things about the EU? | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
Not really, only positive if I'm totally honest but I am | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
all for immigration and letting people in who need a place to live. | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
I really like the idea behind it, the philosophy behind the EU, | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
remaining together for the greater good of the world. | :49:26. | :49:27. | |
The reasons I would vote in, probably for our generation, | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
I just think it kind of makes sense, and if you look at who the people | :49:33. | :49:48. | |
are in the public eye who are voting out, I am definitely not down | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
Where we did find strong support for Remain in Lambeth, | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
again and again it came down to a positive view of | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
migration, diversity and integration with Europe. | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
Next Friday morning we will wake up to discover if enough of the UK | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
feels that way for Britain to remain in the European Union. | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
I am joined by Jonathan Bartley a local Green Party politician in | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
Lambeth. Viewers might see more of him in the future. He is standing to | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
be the leader of the party on a joint ticket with their only MP | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
Caroline Lucas, and he is the bookmakers' favourite to get the | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
job. Research suggests that Lambeth is the place in England that wants | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
to stay in more than anywhere else why? It is the borrower of young | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
people. It is there a future that is at stake. And we are at ease with | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
migration. We have had it for generations. We do not see it as a | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
threat. It is densely populated but we get by. The problems we face are | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
caused by central government cuts, by a local council that does not | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
listen, and not by the local Polish deli on the high street. Last week | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
people said they wanted to leave because of NHS problems, house | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
prices, getting a school place for their kids. They are problems people | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
have in Lambeth. Why are they not voting out to solve them? It is the | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
most unequal elephant in London People recognise that the inequality | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
is not going to the lack of money. We are richer than we have been we | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
have more technological advances than we have ever had, the problem | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
is the money is in the wrong hands. There is a move against | :51:49. | :51:50. | |
gentrification in Lambeth. There is resentment about lots of rich people | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
coming into the elephant. It is not the migrants that are doing that, it | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
is the wealthy that are hoarding the money. That is the cause. You talk | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
about gentrification, richer and younger people coming into the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
elephant. In the film, it was amongst that group of young, | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
professional people that saw a real support for Remain, that other than | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
the traditional population? I love the diversity of Lambeth. You get | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
people living side-by-side from different backgrounds. The fact we | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
can make it work is evidence that we are stronger together in the | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
European Union. What is missing from the debate but what people in | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
Lambeth get, there is a positive case for the European Union to be | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
made, positive vision. We are looking at the future, not just that | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
what we would lose by leaving, but what we would gain by staying in. We | :52:44. | :52:51. | |
have people with additional needs, disabled people, they need help that | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
they will not get from this government. They will get it from | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
the European Union and will people recognise that and come together to | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
work for it. Jonathan Bartley, thank you. Just a final thought, talking | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
to people in Lambeth, some people did not understand why anybody would | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
vote out. In Havering last week we met people who did not have any | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
conception of why people would want to stay in the European Union. They | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
had not met people from the other side. Although we are one city, it | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
seems that in some ways we are very polarised. Teresa Romero is, what | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
would you say to convince the people of Brixton and Lambeth over the next | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
few days? I think we face a bright future outside the European Union. | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
We will regain control over our trade policy which opens up business | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
opportunities around the world. We will get a great deal from the | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
European Union and carry on doing business with them in the way we do | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
now. We will have control of our own destiny, able to have democratic | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
control over the people who make our lives, so if they get it wrong, we | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
can vote them out at the general election, which we cannot do at the | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
moment. Sadiq Khan, this weekend campaigning in Manchester and Leeds | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
might, why have you been needed to go and campaign their? It is in the | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
interests of country to campaign to stay in the European Union. I been | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
speaking to people in the north-west, explaining why it is | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
important to stay in, for our country. We join Nato and the union | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
in the 1940s. We joined the G7 and the EU in the 1970s. It leads to | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
jobs, trade and investment. We are part of a single market of 500 | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
million customers, with one set of rules which we help make. We do 50% | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
of our trade with them. Why would we walk away? Why would that club allow | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
us to get the benefits of that club, not pay the fees, not abide by their | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
rules, when people who are members cannot get those benefits? We would | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
have to pay to trade. Is one of the reasons why you have been heading up | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
to northern areas because of your concerns about how, under your | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
leader Jeremy Corbyn, there has been what people describe as a less than | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
sparkling campaign to Remain? I think it will be a close election. | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
What do you say about his campaign? He has been campaigning all around | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
the country. He was on the BBC this morning talking to the British | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
public. All of us have been campaigning in the Labour Party | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
With three days to go it is important that people turn out to | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
vote to remain. We are not quitters. There is a proud case to remain You | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
mentioned an appearance on television today, but a lot of it | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
has been town hall meetings. You said last week you did not think | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
that had been cutting through. What should he have been doing? It is | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
more exciting, Boris against Cameron, Michael Gove against Nigel | :56:01. | :56:10. | |
Farage. We have three days to go. -- Michael Gove Nigel Farage. You have | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
no issues with the way he has been less than warm about the case for | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
remaining? He thinks that the EU is not perfect. I do not think it is | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
perfect either. He has been explaining the pros and cons, and on | :56:29. | :56:37. | |
balance, it is better to stay. Is there a risk to jobs in London? | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
Organisations like this said that this would be the consequence of not | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
joining the Euro. They were wrong. They are also wrong now. At the | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
heart of the item and for the Remain case, is that somehow this country | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
is too small, too weak, too stupid to run run affairs. That is wrong. | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
We have the greatest financial centre on the planet, the best | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
universities, some of the greatest scientist, we are the fifth biggest | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
economy in world. We invented self-governing democracy and | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
exported around the world. We can run a run affairs. You know that all | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
the major organisations, the business organisations, the city | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
Corporation, are warning of the impact of this. One example, people, | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
and set up their headquarters in London, in the financial sector | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
because it gives them away into the single market. You would be removing | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
that? There are around 75 banks which passport into London. It will | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
be in the interests of the EU to do a good trade deal with us, because | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
they sell more to us than we do to them. It is not in their interest | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
clause of the access of their banks to London or to a wrecked trade | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
barriers, because it will make it more difficult for them to sell | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
goods and services to us. Do we have to many EU migrants in the capital? | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
I was elected on a commitment to reduce migration to hundreds of | :58:08. | :58:09. | |
thousands. I will be working to do all I can they need that manifesto | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
commitment. Tens of thousands, I think. Yes, to reduce it to tens of | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
thousands. An interesting slip. Obviously migration has delivered | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
tremendous benefits to London. Everyone accepts that. There is also | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
a need for democratic control over migration. It is important we have | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
democratic control over decisions as sensitive as that. Should there be | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
an upper limit, Sadiq Khan? No. David Cameron managed to make a good | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
deal with the European Union. EU immigrants who come here work and | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
pay taxes and support our public services. 130,000 EU migrants are | :58:50. | :58:57. | |
working in the NHS and social care. 1.5 million Brits work for companies | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
owned by EU citizens. ?20 billion has been contributed since 2001 I | :59:05. | :59:14. | |
think. You have no concern about the numbers. Of course, we have to | :59:15. | :59:24. | |
manage migration. The problem is the League campaign cannot explain what | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
would happen if we left the EU. Australia, Norway and Switzerland | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
have more immigration pair had than we have under the current rules You | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
do not think there should be an upper limit? You will just see what | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
the market provides? Do you have any concerns at all about the pressure | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
on services, schools, the delay to see a GP, pressures on health | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
services? The deal we have got means that knowing your country can join | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
the European Union without having a veto to stop them, but also, new | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
countries that joined cannot have their citizens come to our country, | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
unless we are happy for them to do so. As far as public services are | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
concerned, the responsibility for them not being enough genuinely | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
affordable homes, it is not the immigrants, it is politicians. The | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
NHS has been starved of investment because of government policy. We | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
need to build enough affordable homes. We should invest in the NHS. | :00:20. | :00:27. | |
EU immigrants support the NHS and social care, and support our | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
schools. We should be addressing concerns is politicians rather than | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
playing on them. What do you say to that? | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
My question has brought tremendous benefits to London, which are great | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
example of a global city with connections all around the world but | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
it is important that we have the ability to control the numbers | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
coming in from Europe because the pressure public services and it is | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
important that we have confidence in the immigration system. What about | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
improving public services because they are in the beating to our tax | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
returns? We are working to do all we can to deliver more housing and | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
improve public services but it is still the case that significant | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
population growth does create pressure and that is one of the | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
reasons why we need to take back democratic control over decisions. | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
And does it really suppress the wages of Londoners? The Bank of | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
England is clear that significant increase in migration depress wages | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
so that it an impact felt today It is a very small effect, 1% or | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
something. Thereupon 03%. You may not think it is significant but | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
people on lower incomes and low skilled work, it is a significant | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
impact on them and we should bear their interests in mind. There are | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
some people in London who benefit from the EU but there are many who | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
are having their wages depressed. Martin Lewis has said that if we | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
leave the EU it is more likely you will have less money in your pocket, | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
it is a fact, experts and evidence points to leaving the EU being bad | :02:04. | :02:04. | |
for jobs and the economy. So, we're entering the final stage | :02:05. | :02:05. | |
of this referendum campaign and it's What do the campaigns have | :02:06. | :02:18. | |
left up their sleeves, and what will be the impact | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of the papers and Parliament is recalled tomorrow to | :02:24. | :02:45. | |
pay tribute to Jo Cox. That will influence the campaign and take our | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
eyes away from it. We have David Cameron tonight on question Time on | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
BBC One and the big debate from Wembley on BBC One on Tuesday night. | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
How will the final couple of days be? What should we be looking for? | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
It will be more muted than otherwise had it not been for the killing of | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
Jo Cox. I think there is no appetite on either side to return to some of | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
the vociferous nurse of the past month or two. Muted but also quite | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
settled -- the vociferous nature. The campaign is decided in that we | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
know what the issues are but the ultimate question is do you dislike | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
immigration more than you like economic calm and that is the test | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
on Thursday. What impresses me about the Wembley Arena debate on Tuesday | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
is who Remain have chosen as their three debaters. 2-mac of them are | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
clearly designed to pitch to Labour voters, Sadiq Khan... We can see | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
them on the screen. Vadis O'Grady and Sadiq Khan are clearly designed | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
to appeal to the Labour voters - Frances O'Grady. Even Ruth Davidson | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
is a centrist conservative and perhaps better to appeal to Scottish | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
Labour Party voters. You look on the Leave side, Boris Johnson, and Ryan | :04:18. | :04:31. | |
Ledson -- Andrea Leadsom. Looking at that, which is the stronger team? I | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
think the Leave team, if that does not sound too partisan, in terms of | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
dynamism and vitality of personality. There may be some | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
surprises, remaining Ake might put some fresh faces but there are no | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
fresh arguments. There is only now a semantic problem. This item is now | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
anti-uncontrolled immigration and that is an important factor, this is | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
not about uncertainty in an absolute sense because there is uncertainty | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
on both sides. It has now got the point where it is a question of who | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
gets the best formulation. Anything can happen in a big debate, | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
particularly one with 6000 people being there. If I was a Remain | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
strategist, I would be worried that team is a bit underpowered for this | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
big event. I would agree. We might all know Frances O'Grady but I'm not | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
sure anybody us in the country might unless you are a team of of the TUC. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Leave a gone with the same team that they thought did well in the eye | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
debate -- in the ITV debate. The main have gone with three different | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
characters. It suggests that they have some new tactics. The last time | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
when we saw Amber Rudd exec are going viciously for Boris Johnson, | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
this one is all about getting out your base vote. People know the | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
arguments, even if you're not been tuning into it has been flooding in | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
subconsciously. It is about motivating your supporters to go to | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
the polls will stop one thing on the Remain choice, Ruth Davidson. We set | :06:26. | :06:34. | |
up a debate of our own, a cab that goes round and interviews people, | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
and we wanted, Ruth Davidson was put up and we could not get a single | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
person in the Leave campaign to debate her. Because they were | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
frightened of her? Yes. She is exceptionally good and smart, when | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
it comes to those one-liners, and if she can pull one off against | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
somebody like Boris Johnson, that could do... But there could be a | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
danger. Let me put it diplomatically, she is not Boris | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Johnson's biggest fan and Boris Johnson already got attacked by | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
Amber Rudd in the ITV debate. If we go down that road again, it could | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
rebound on them. You could argue that what Amber Rudd got wrong was | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
the tone with which she attacked Boris Johnson and a more skilful | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
politician, like Ruth Davidson, could pull off the same line but | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
deliver it in a better way. The point about scripting is | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
interesting. I was talking to somebody in number ten a couple of | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
days ago who were saying that when you briefed politicians you usually | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
have to give them the killer line on the opponent but with Ruth Davidson | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
you have to do nothing. She is across all the details and she can | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
come up with a venomous whip at the end of a sentence. One thing also | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
very clear from this Remain team is that they are worried about Labour | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
voters who will be key to this and if they are so angry about scare | :08:04. | :08:12. | |
tactics and immigration, they will bring victory to the Leave campaign | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
and that is what people are worried about. This is an identity crisis | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
for the Labour Party, even more than the Conservative Party. David | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
Cameron is on a Question Time special tonight. Michael Gove did | :08:26. | :08:34. | |
one last week. Life programmes with an audience are always tricky but | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
David Cameron knows how to do these things. This is his forte, the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
medium of his choice which is precisely why it is happening. What | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
will be most interesting tonight is his tone he chooses. The post Jo Cox | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
tragedy age of trying to be nicer to each other, personally I don't think | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
George Osborne succeeded this morning. He can't really do | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
uplifting, happy politics. Even Paddy Ashdown fell into the trap! | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
Two whole years of British politics we have spent campaigning and we | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
haven't stopped, the Scottish referendum into the general | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
election. And the Prime Minister is exhausting. Negative campaigning | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
works. If the PM does the uplifting stuff, that might work better than | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
the scare stories. There is a lot of talk about politicians attacking | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
each other but there is a middle ground about how they are attacking | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
the electorate. The idea of terrifying pages into thinking that | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
the triple lock on their pensions will have to be withdrawn, the | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
sacred promise that Cameron made, if they vote the wrong way, that was | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
disgusting. There is a lot of attempt to put the fear of God up | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
the electorate which has been extremely unattractive. We have had | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
newspaper endorsements, the editorials have come out as usual | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
the Sunday before an important election. The main have the Mail on | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Sunday, the Observer, the mirror, the people. Leave have the sun on | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
Sunday, the Sunday Telegraph, the Sunday Times and the Sunday express. | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
It is fashionable to say that editorials don't matter but | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
politicians still crave for them to come down on their side. They must | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
have some importance. But if we are heading to a very close result, | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
51-49, even a minimal impact it a significant impact. They matter in | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
this referendum but what is interesting is the way that some | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
newspaper houses have split with the times being pro-leave, the Daily | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
Mail wanting to leave but the Mail on Sunday wanting to remain will | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
stop a lot of people will be cynical and say that these are newspaper | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
proprietors covering their bets I think it is a good reflection on the | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
industry and the editors being given their head to decide a large | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
existential question for the country. When we go into the vote on | :11:05. | :11:14. | |
Friday morning, on Thursday morning, where will we be? Will we know the | :11:15. | :11:23. | |
result? As it was in 1975. Or will it be like the general election last | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
year when even those who thought they knew the result didn't? I think | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
it will be a very long night and we might not know the result until the | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
same time on Friday morning. Polls are polls, snapshots, maybe there | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
are shy people on both sides. The key is getting your vote out. I | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
genuinely have no idea which way it will go. Whichever campaign can put | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
more of their people through the polling station wins. What I'm not | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
clever about, does Remain continue to put about the terrible economic | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
consequences if we leave from their point of view? And does Leave carry | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
on about immigration? Are we going to get more of the same with maybe a | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
different tone after what has happened but fundamentally the same | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
things. Those are the headlines but there are subtle argument and I wish | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
they were getting more attention. I wish the Leave campaign were | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
stressing more the uncertainty economically of the EU. It may be | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
too late. It has been said but it is not a headline. We have them | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
questions about the risks of remaining. But the media attention | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
has been on the risks. You would expect the change proposition to be | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
the one that embodies the risk. The EU is a volatile and some would say | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
failing project. I understand that. That is your point of view. How will | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
we vote? To stay in by a margin of 55-45. That would be healthy. I | :13:08. | :13:16. | |
think it will be Leave by a squeak. Remain. We will bring them back next | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
week to see if they are right. The Daily Politics will be | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
back at noon tomorrow, and the Sunday Politics will be back | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
for a special extended show to take in all the news following the result | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
of the EU referendum. Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:31. | :13:43. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:44. | :13:47. |