19/06/2016 Sunday Politics London


19/06/2016

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As campaigning restarts after the tragic death of the MP

:00:44.:00:51.

Jo Cox, we'll be looking at how the final days leading up

:00:52.:00:54.

to Thursday's EU referendum could have a crucial impact

:00:55.:00:56.

The polls suggest it's all still too close to call as voters

:00:57.:01:02.

across the country make their final decision on whether the UK

:01:03.:01:05.

is better off in or out, of the European Union.

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And we'll be letting both campaigns go head to head

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as they test the substance of each other's arguments.

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In London this week we are in the south London borough

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of Lambeth which is said in some recent polling to be one of the most

:01:24.:01:26.

All that to come, and as we enter the final lap before the vote

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which will shape the future of Britain, I'm joined by three

:01:38.:01:39.

journalists who are just as in the dark about the likely

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Janan Ganesh, Tom Newton Dunn and Janet Daley.

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So campaigning is slowly beginning again after the death of the Labour

:01:49.:01:56.

MP Jo Cox on Thursday, with events planed today by both

:01:57.:01:59.

the official Remain and Leave groups.

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And we've heard from big figures from either side on the

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Labour leader and Remain supporter Jeremy Corbyn and Leave campaigner

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and Conservative minister Michael Gove were both asked

:02:12.:02:13.

Is there any kind of upper limit to immigration

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I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement

:02:19.:02:23.

of labour and I think the free movement of labour means that

:02:24.:02:26.

you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living

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And so that means the European Union's appalling treatment

:02:29.:02:35.

of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank

:02:36.:02:38.

as well as the European Union, that is a problem.

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So if you actually deliberately lower living standards and increase

:02:43.:02:45.

poverty in certain countries in south-east or eastern Europe

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then you are bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere

:02:49.:02:51.

Surely the issue is an anti-austerity, a growth package

:02:52.:02:56.

When I've had the opportunity to talk about migration

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during the course of this debate, I hope I have been very clear.

:03:02.:03:04.

I am pro-migration but I believe that the way in which we secure

:03:05.:03:10.

public support for the continued benefits that migration brings

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and the way in which we secure public support for helping refugees

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in need is if people feel that they can control the numbers

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In Canada and Australia, two countries I very much admire,

:03:19.:03:22.

they have control and therefore they are able both to welcome

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Both sides talking about immigration. Mr Corbyn saying no

:03:26.:03:37.

upper limit as long as we have free movement in the EU. That is honest

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but will not be welcome perhaps by the Remain campaign. Not in the

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slightest. The Leave campaign sleeper agent strikes against! It

:03:50.:03:54.

was Alex Gregory thing to say and you can imagine Jeremy Corbyn being

:03:55.:03:59.

piled full briefing notes before, saying whatever you do, don't talk

:04:00.:04:05.

about people coming in their droves -- an extraordinary thing to say. He

:04:06.:04:11.

threw that all in the bin and told it truthfully, as he saw it. It may

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be the thing that precipitate a leadership challenge on him after

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the referendum. Much talk of that but no evidence. What did you make

:04:23.:04:28.

of it? I picked was a phenomenal performance for a covert agent for

:04:29.:04:34.

the opposite side, not such a good performance for a sincere... It was

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honest. It was candid but there is still an element of the country

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which is pro-Remain in the most grudging way possible and his

:04:44.:04:47.

approach might resonate a bit more with the more enthusiastic approach

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from George Osborne or David Cameron. The most telling thing this

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morning is when Nigel Farage was pressed on his controversial poster

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on migration a few days ago and his response was to say that the

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mainstream Leave campaign have come up with some pretty fruity posters

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of their own on that subject. I think the beginnings of a split

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between those sides of the Leave campaign, on the tone of how you

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deal with the issue of migration, might open up even in the last few

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days. Is there a difference to the tone of the campaign even when

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talking about immigration? Or is it back to business as usual? The

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substance of the argument remains the same Ulster Jeremy Corbyn put

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his finger in the league right on it. As a consequence of the hideous

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events of the last couple of days if that is a tendency to imply that

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anybody associated with the Leave campaign, anybody who expresses

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concerns about the numbers of immigrants, the flow of migration,

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is somehow a right-wing extremist, a fascist who is, by implication,

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associated with this crime. Jeremy Corbyn didn't do that. I am saying

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there is a tone in the media coverage that implies guilt by

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association with anybody who expresses concern about migration

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and that is very dangerous because the surest way to drive people into

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extraparliamentary opposition and dissidents is to make it clear that

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no respectable politician will pick up their concerns. Did you agree

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with Nigel Farage? Of course not. Nothing is wrong with pointing it

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out. George Osborne has poured petrol on the plane is talking about

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the echoes of 1930s. -- the flames. That is absurd. Your point about a

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split in the Leave campaign, there have been a split from the off.

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Right from the beginning. There is a difference in tone between... I was

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going to say, the story last week was of a widening gap with Remain in

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the lead that was the opinion polls, sorry, with Leave in the lead. If

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you were on the Remain site, would you not take comfort from the polls

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today? Especially from the fact that, according to YouGov, the mood

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in the polls predate the killing of Jo Cox so you could conclusion there

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is a structural reversion to continue to which often occurs

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before big elections. -- continuity. But it does not help that you have

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the lead of the opposition getting into a conversation about free

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movement. One of the biggest poll findings, the number of people who

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feel they would lose out material from Brexit has gone up from 23 233%

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and that is how win. Plenty of opinion polls

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in this morning's papers, as you'd expect in the last weekend

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before the vote. There will be more to

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come in the days ahead. Of course, polls are not quite

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the holy grail these days, especially after their failure

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to get the result right And the pollsters find referendums

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even trickier than other votes. But imperfect as they may be,

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they're what we've got and they ve told an interesting story

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throughout the campaign. Polls conducted by phone like this

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one back in May by Ipsos Mori have consistently put Remain ahead -

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here with an 18-point lead, But signs things were changing

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emerged at the end of last month, as one phone poll showed

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Leave three points ahead. And just this Thursday the latest

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Ipsos Mori survey caused a bit of a stir when it showed Leave

:08:42.:08:45.

with a six-point lead. But those carried out online have

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shown a different story, with the two sides level pegging

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or with Leave ahead. Back in May before the 'purdah'

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period which stopped the government taking part in the campaign,

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one internet poll gave Almost a month later,

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another online poll, this one by ICM, had

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Leave five points ahead. But this YouGov survey is one

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of four polls released overnight, suggesting both sides are neck

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and neck, suggesting the result So that's the story told

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by the polls in the months leading up to the referendum,

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and just so you have the full YouGov for the Sunday Times puts

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Remain on 44%, one point Another YouGov poll

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for Good Morning Britain gives Opinium for the Observer has Leave

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and Remain level pegging on 44% And Survation for the Mail

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on Sunday, the only telephone poll today, has Remain

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on 45% and Leave on 42%. Well, there's only one man we can

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turn to explain what it all means - I speak of course of elections

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expert John Curtice, Four new polls out this morning

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What do they tell us? They certainly provide a degree of relief for David

:10:19.:10:22.

Cameron and the remaining macro side after some dire polls last week

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which almost unanimously suggested a sharp drop in support for Remain.

:10:27.:10:33.

But it is perhaps an indication of just how tight this referendum has

:10:34.:10:38.

become that three Internet polls between suggested it was 50-50 and

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one telephone pole, which although it puts Remain back in the lead it

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makes the lead much narrower that in any previous point in the campaign.

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The fact that that is regarded as good news for them is an indication

:10:53.:10:56.

of how much trouble they had got into seemingly. I think these polls

:10:57.:11:02.

were taken at a time when it was too early, tell me if I'm wrong, to see

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if the appalling tragedy of Jo Cox has had any impact on the campaign.

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I think that is correct. The telephone poll was done entirely

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afterwards, one of the YouGov polls was done mostly afterwards. They are

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saying that the poll they did just before was already showing Remain

:11:27.:11:29.

increasing and the one after shows that continuing further. Given that

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there was a widespread expectation that perhaps Remain would start to

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regain ground as people considered the possible risks of voting for

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Leave, maybe this process had already kicked in and that is

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explaining something of a movement back towards Remain, and it may not

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necessarily have anything to do with the tragic murder of Jo Cox. There

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is nothing in these polls to be able to pin it definitively on that

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particular event. It is often said in referenda that there can be a

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reversion to the status quo on the final day and that would be to vote

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to remain. Is there any sign of that? And what can you tell us about

:12:16.:12:23.

the undecideds? I saw some of the polling suggesting that those who

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were undecided, if they vote, they are more likely to vote to remain

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than to come out. Your first point, it is precisely whether that process

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are people reverting back to the status quo is already kicking in and

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this explains why the polls this weekend are somewhat better than

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those in the week. And I think what it does seem to be the case, we are

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asking is that movement to leave was a stone that was gathering more moss

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and would continue this weekend and that clearly hadn't happened. Remain

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may hope that people reverting back to the status quo might happen, that

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is the first point. The second was about the significance of the

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undecideds. The number of them going down and the people who have made up

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their mind is going up but you are right that most polls find that the

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people who don't know are most likely to vote first of all and the

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second thing they are likely to do is to vote for Remain. And many of

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the opinion polls published now are already including into their

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headline tallies the reported votes of those who initially said they

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were undecided but are asked a follow up squeeze question. We

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should not say there is more ground to be made for Remain from that

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particular phenomenon. Thank you. Only a few days to go,

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so how will the campaigns try to win over undecided voters in the short

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time they have remaining? Well, we're joined now from Somerset

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by the former Lib Dem And here in the studio by the Labour

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MP and Leave campaigner, Paddy Ashdown, do you get a sense

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this weekend, if I can put it this way, that the Remain campaign is

:14:21.:14:25.

back on track? Andrew Neil, you really want to bring me on straight

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after John Curtis, my nemesis, and ask me to disagree with him! The

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last time I had to eat my hat.. I disagreed with John twice on the

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poll now and I have been wrong on every occasion and I'm delighted to

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make my apologies to him on your programme. I don't know all the I

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think what you're talking about with John about the undecided voters

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maybe keep to this, if they vote or not, and if they do, will they vote

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in favour of remaining as people predict. I don't think any of us

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know. It is all within a margin of error, it is all to play for and it

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looks to me, extremely tight. Perhaps a small shift in favour of

:15:16.:15:19.

remaining macro but too small to be certain about it.

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We got some austere stories about the economy from the Chancellor this

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morning on ITV. In the final three days, starting tomorrow, three more

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days of campaigning to go, is that the right way to go, or would you

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advise the Remain campaign to start putting out a more positive message

:15:42.:15:46.

about remaining in the EU? They are following a playbook they have

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followed before. I'm not involved with the Remain campaign. My advice

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to voters, when it comes to predictions on the economy, do not

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listen to either side, listen to the independent voices whose job it is,

:16:00.:16:04.

paid by all the nations on earth, to make judgments about the economic

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consequences of our political actions. They have been wrong

:16:09.:16:14.

before, but I'll be all wrong? Are only Mr Johnson and Mr Farage red?

:16:15.:16:18.

People need to realise they are betting their jobs and the national

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economy on this. Nothing is certain, but when you make the judgment, you

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probably want to wear on your mind, not George Osborne's comments, or

:16:29.:16:32.

Boris Johnson's from the other side, they will put the point as they want

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to, but those independent voices, every single one of them, without

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exception, who are independent of the campaign, the global experts on

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this. This is not a conspiracy, it is a consensus, all of them say it

:16:49.:16:54.

will seriously damage our economy. For most people, worried about their

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jobs, that will be a more powerful factor in making your decision. More

:16:59.:17:07.

powerful than the words of the opposition parties. Some in Remain

:17:08.:17:12.

may not regard it as helpful, but Jeremy Corbyn told the BBC this

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morning that with free movement within the EU, you can have no upper

:17:16.:17:22.

limit on immigration. That was accurate and honest, wasn't it? One

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thing you can be sure of, if we leave the European Union, you will

:17:29.:17:33.

control immigration, but not anyway that the out campaigners claim. You

:17:34.:17:37.

will trash the economy, far fewer jobs and no one will want to come

:17:38.:17:43.

here. Your language is interesting. We will trash the economy, not that

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we will not grow as fast, not that it will be better to stay in than

:17:48.:17:56.

I'd, but we will trash the economy? Find another word, if you wish. We

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are slowly recovering from recession. It has been massive pain

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to get out of the mess we were in. The international economy, all of

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those who comment, they say in big terms are small towns, the used

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strong words are relatively more moderated ones, the agree it will

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push us back into recession. You can use trash the economy or say we are

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going back into recession. Creating those jobs, making Britain one of

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the best economies in Europe, we would turn that around if we came

:18:31.:18:36.

out. The consequences will be for jobs and businesses, the tax

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revenues for the government that pays for our public services, it

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will be very serious. John Mann immigration has been a big part of

:18:45.:18:51.

the Leave campaign. Did the town get too hostile on immigration, did it

:18:52.:18:56.

get to a robust? Yes, and Nigel Farage's poster is the worst example

:18:57.:19:01.

of that. It would be better known if it had not been produced and he

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withdrew it. It is unhelpful and inaccurate, irrelevant to the real

:19:07.:19:12.

debate. So yes. What did you make of Jeremy Corbyn's remarks this morning

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on immigration? The issues in working-class communities remain.

:19:19.:19:22.

The issues are about pay, agency work, they are about people's hopes

:19:23.:19:27.

for the future. When you have zero our contracts, when the health

:19:28.:19:33.

services under pressure, and people see privatisation and cuts, the

:19:34.:19:36.

Labour agenda on Friday, whatever the result, it has to get into that.

:19:37.:19:43.

If it is a Leave vote, the first thing Labour could be doing was

:19:44.:19:48.

demanding a dash was demanding an immediate end of the procurement

:19:49.:19:52.

rules for public services. We could argue for an increase in public

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servers pay, to stop the impact of the European Court rulings and

:19:57.:20:01.

reinforcing agencies. It is agencies and the uncertainty in the labour

:20:02.:20:06.

market that is really behind the strain that appears to be in working

:20:07.:20:11.

-- the strength that appears to be in working-class communities for

:20:12.:20:16.

Kallis leave. There are only three days to go. Is the biggest issue

:20:17.:20:22.

immigration again? I hope not. I hope it is about hope and vision for

:20:23.:20:27.

what kind of country we want in the future, and how best in the modern

:20:28.:20:30.

technological age, where the computer has been invented, where we

:20:31.:20:35.

order things online, where big developments will get even faster,

:20:36.:20:39.

about how we deal with the whole of the world. I think that politicians,

:20:40.:20:49.

MPs, all of us, myself included we remain extremely shaken by the

:20:50.:20:53.

horrific murder of Jo Cox. I think there will be less campaigning, less

:20:54.:20:59.

than there was. However strong people's views, they do not want to

:21:00.:21:03.

be banging on doors at the current time. I think there will be less

:21:04.:21:08.

politicians out and about and there would have been. There seems to be

:21:09.:21:14.

of their weight behind Leave, last week, certainly, up until the

:21:15.:21:17.

terrible events on Thursday. Do you get a sense that it could be

:21:18.:21:22.

slipping away from you this weekend? From the polls last time, I would

:21:23.:21:25.

have expected them to bounce back little bit. It will depend on

:21:26.:21:31.

turnout. If there is a disproportionately high turnout in

:21:32.:21:34.

the areas that do not normally vote, it will end up with a Leave vote. If

:21:35.:21:42.

it is lower, it will be Remain. Turnout will decide. It is not

:21:43.:21:46.

predictable. I hope the vast majority of people are voting and

:21:47.:21:50.

whatever the result, we need to get together as a country, and get

:21:51.:21:57.

behind that result. Paddy Ashdown... Would you allow me. It is a really

:21:58.:22:03.

important statement that John Mann has made. I admire him very much and

:22:04.:22:07.

I know he is just as interested in the future of this country as I am.

:22:08.:22:13.

If it is the case that the terrible death of Jo Cox, who I campaigned

:22:14.:22:18.

with on the issues of refugees and two I had massive admiration for, if

:22:19.:22:23.

that has led to a change in tone, that would be welcome. The way that

:22:24.:22:27.

John put his case and the way he moved away from the Nigel Farage

:22:28.:22:32.

poster, which I find distasteful, if that is the tone of this campaign, I

:22:33.:22:36.

do not think it will massively alter the result, but that last we will

:22:37.:22:41.

have a campaign we can be proud of, one that I have felt so far

:22:42.:22:46.

extremely ashamed about. High octane insults from both sides. Some of

:22:47.:22:50.

that is because it is an internal civil war in the Tory party, and

:22:51.:22:55.

they are always the worst. I was at the Oval the other day, and the man

:22:56.:23:02.

came up to the In campaign and said they should be executed. If we can

:23:03.:23:06.

get away from that, lower the tone and follow the approach John Mann is

:23:07.:23:11.

suggesting, we will have a good debate, honoured democracy, and it's

:23:12.:23:15.

essential qualities of tolerance and respect for others, rather than the

:23:16.:23:19.

kind of thing we have had in recent weeks. Will the final three days of

:23:20.:23:23.

the campaign be that different in tone? I think they will be.

:23:24.:23:30.

Certainly members of Parliament will be careful on the language used I

:23:31.:23:37.

hope on the Leave site, everyone will distance themselves from Nigel

:23:38.:23:42.

Farage's poster and what lay behind that. I hope that on the Remain

:23:43.:23:47.

side, people Walsh move away from the exaggerations that have taken

:23:48.:23:53.

place. -- people will move. Paddy Ashdown. I agree with that as well.

:23:54.:24:00.

We have dealt in hyperbole. The public does not trust either side.

:24:01.:24:05.

If we can change that now, if we can come back to a statement of the

:24:06.:24:10.

facts, maybe relying on independent opinions, I think the last few days

:24:11.:24:16.

of the campaign will honour us. In the interests of our anti-hyperbole

:24:17.:24:21.

Drive, can both Remain and Leave agree that when the French economic

:24:22.:24:25.

minister says that if we vote to leave, we will be no more important

:24:26.:24:30.

than Guernsey, we can file that under hyperbole? Yes, you can. You

:24:31.:24:35.

may be able to file it under trash. Thank you. Thank you, John Mann we

:24:36.:24:41.

can file that under hyperbole? Yes, we can.

:24:42.:24:47.

Now, over the past two weeks we ve been letting the politicians

:24:48.:24:49.

from either side of this referendum debate interrogate each other over

:24:50.:24:52.

what they feel are the really big issues at stake.

:24:53.:24:54.

Today, in the last of the series for now, we've invited

:24:55.:24:57.

the Green Party MP and Remain campaigner Caroline Lucas

:24:58.:24:59.

to question the Conservative minister and Leave campaigner

:25:00.:25:01.

A little earlier, we tossed a coin to see who would go first.

:25:02.:25:07.

Dominic was the winner, and he chose to answer

:25:08.:25:10.

So, before we get started, let's have a listen to Domnic Raab

:25:11.:25:19.

making the case for why undecided voters should vote to leave.

:25:20.:25:26.

I am confident in you, the British people, and I am also

:25:27.:25:30.

convinced with my head and my heart that we can only reach our full

:25:31.:25:33.

Take some of the positives of leaving the EU, our small

:25:34.:25:40.

businesses would be freed up from straitjacket regulation.

:25:41.:25:43.

That is important for us because small businesses in this

:25:44.:25:46.

We would be freed up to trade more energetically with the growth

:25:47.:25:51.

markets of the future, from Asia to Latin America,

:25:52.:25:54.

which will cut prices in the shops, and we will take back full control

:25:55.:26:01.

over the money we give the EU, and our gross contribution is now

:26:02.:26:04.

?350 million every week and certain to rise.

:26:05.:26:06.

When it comes to immigration it can bring huge benefits,

:26:07.:26:09.

but only if it is properly controlled.

:26:10.:26:10.

Uncontrolled immigration from the EU has put pressure on jobs and wages,

:26:11.:26:14.

and a massive strain on infrastructure,

:26:15.:26:15.

The truth is, we cannot properly control immigration

:26:16.:26:22.

There is something bigger in this debate, something

:26:23.:26:25.

I want us to be masters of our own destiny.

:26:26.:26:30.

I want it as a citizen, as a father, and I want it

:26:31.:26:33.

With the majority of laws now made in Brussels by politicians

:26:34.:26:39.

and bureaucrats not elected by or accountable to you,

:26:40.:26:41.

we can only truly be masters of our own destiny if we vote

:26:42.:26:44.

to leave the EU on 23rd June and take back democratic control.

:26:45.:26:50.

And here are Caroline Lucas and Dominic Raab.

:26:51.:26:52.

And just to explain the rules, Caroline has just five minutes

:26:53.:27:00.

She can only ask questions, and he can only give answers.

:27:01.:27:04.

Thank you. Dominik, how much is Britain's net weekly contribution to

:27:05.:27:15.

the EU? Weekly? The grosses 350 million and the net contribution is

:27:16.:27:19.

around half of that. You will know that on this leaflet it says, let's

:27:20.:27:24.

give NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week. Is that not

:27:25.:27:29.

misleading because it is not the real figure? After was four months

:27:30.:27:33.

of campaigning, people have understood there is a difference

:27:34.:27:36.

between the gross contribution, and that includes some of the things

:27:37.:27:40.

that the EU spends in this country on our behalf, without is being able

:27:41.:27:44.

to prioritise, as well as the amount we give and do not see back. We want

:27:45.:27:50.

the money back that the EU spends on itself. Do you accept this as a

:27:51.:27:55.

wrong figure? We want control over the money we put in. It is the gross

:27:56.:28:00.

contribution, I have made that clear. We never send the men from

:28:01.:28:05.

the rebate, so we cannot possibly be spending that again on the NHS. Why

:28:06.:28:11.

should anyone believe your side on the NHS, given that also some of the

:28:12.:28:14.

key vote leave campaigners are people who want to privatise the

:28:15.:28:19.

NHS? We have a wide range of politicians involved. We have heard

:28:20.:28:24.

from John Mann. You're some of the most left-wing unions like our side.

:28:25.:28:29.

In relation to what we said about the NHS, we would take 100 million

:28:30.:28:34.

each week from the net contribution. That is the allocation that would be

:28:35.:28:38.

made. When you get your salary from the House of Commons you get a gross

:28:39.:28:42.

figure. There is a difference between that and your take-home pay.

:28:43.:28:50.

There is no difference here. That is a misleading figure. I want to come

:28:51.:28:52.

onto another poster. This is another one you will be familiar with. The

:28:53.:28:57.

Leave side are sending at around the country. It says that Turkey I

:28:58.:29:04.

leaving the EU. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate the

:29:05.:29:09.

suggestion that Turkey is close to becoming a EU member? I think it is

:29:10.:29:16.

right. Turkey is in the process of joining. British taxpayers are

:29:17.:29:22.

already paying ?1.8 billion between 2014 and 2022 pave the way. We have

:29:23.:29:27.

had politicians from Tony Blair to David Cameron making it clear that

:29:28.:29:32.

the UK wants Turkey to join the EU. The UK has a veto, doesn't it? It

:29:33.:29:38.

cannot possibly join in the UK uses that? It is a theoretical veto. It

:29:39.:29:44.

is real. Can you imagine Cyprus not using its veto? From Tony Blair to

:29:45.:29:50.

David Cameron, the consensus in this country is that Turkey should join

:29:51.:29:56.

the EU. Our diplomats are working on measures to expedite that happening.

:29:57.:29:59.

You have got to take into account the impact that would have. How many

:30:00.:30:05.

of the 35 chapters or areas of compliance that Turkey would have to

:30:06.:30:09.

fulfil before it could join, how many of those have been fulfilled in

:30:10.:30:12.

the last 30 years they have been trying to join? Not many. It is one.

:30:13.:30:20.

That is why it is worrying that in Whitehall and in Brussels they are

:30:21.:30:27.

expediting Turkish membership. I was in the Foreign Office when the eight

:30:28.:30:30.

countries from Central and eastern Europe were playing and in many of

:30:31.:30:34.

those cases those criteria were ignored because the political will

:30:35.:30:38.

was there and that is what we have now. Would you accept that this

:30:39.:30:42.

leaflet is misleading because it sounds like it is going to happen

:30:43.:30:45.

soon and it clearly isn't and Britain has a veto? Turkish

:30:46.:30:53.

membership of the EU is a question of when and not if and in that case

:30:54.:30:57.

it is right. Do you think is contributing to an atmosphere of

:30:58.:31:01.

fear and hatred? The responsible thing is to talk about immigration

:31:02.:31:05.

in a sensitive way and if you ignore it and you don't talk about the

:31:06.:31:09.

costs of immigration, you're going to get far more fringe extremist

:31:10.:31:14.

politics. That's not airbrush it out of the debate. I want to ask you,

:31:15.:31:21.

key campaigners on the Leave side like Nigel Lawson and Nigel Farage

:31:22.:31:26.

are at best climate sceptics is not climate deniers do you agree with

:31:27.:31:31.

them? I'm not a climate sceptic at all. You were pleased to see the

:31:32.:31:36.

agreement in Paris? Did the EU play a good role? The problem we have is

:31:37.:31:40.

that 10% of CO2 emissions come from the EU and 90% from the rest of the

:31:41.:31:44.

world so we need a global 08 regional approach. When I dealt with

:31:45.:31:48.

a lot of global institutions, the problem is the EU is so inward

:31:49.:31:52.

looking, we lose sight of the big picture and it is global not

:31:53.:31:56.

regional. The EU played a key role in Paris in terms of ratcheting up

:31:57.:32:01.

the ambition, yes or no? I don't think the ambition was particularly

:32:02.:32:04.

high if you look at the Regent of the world outside the EU. We will

:32:05.:32:06.

leave it there. -- the regions. Now it's the turn of Caroline

:32:07.:32:09.

to be cross-examined. First, let's have a look

:32:10.:32:11.

at her pitch to undecided voters, arguing the case

:32:12.:32:14.

for a vote to remain. They are in their early 20s now

:32:15.:32:20.

and this referendum goes to the heart of the kind of future

:32:21.:32:24.

I want for them, that all of us want for our young

:32:25.:32:27.

people and for Britain. Yet there is a risk that the outcome

:32:28.:32:30.

will be decided by older generations if young people do not get

:32:31.:32:33.

out and vote. The EU can help us build a safer,

:32:34.:32:35.

better future, because the biggest challenges we face today

:32:36.:32:38.

are by their very nature international, and are best tackled

:32:39.:32:40.

by working hand-in-hand with our neighbours,

:32:41.:32:43.

challenges like climate change, the refugee crisis, cross-border

:32:44.:32:45.

crime and terrorism. The EU has been a force for good,

:32:46.:32:50.

from guaranteeing workers' rights to protecting our shared environment

:32:51.:32:54.

and helping to create jobs in every To turn our backs on this would be

:32:55.:32:57.

to turn our backs on a safer, greener, more prosperous

:32:58.:33:03.

and peaceful future. This referendum will define

:33:04.:33:04.

what kind of country our children Do we want to be an isolated,

:33:05.:33:07.

inward-looking country that cares only about what it can get out

:33:08.:33:15.

of the rest of the world, or do we want to be a generous,

:33:16.:33:19.

confident and outward-looking country that wants to be able

:33:20.:33:22.

to play its part in making Let's not take our

:33:23.:33:25.

country backwards. I taught my children that the right

:33:26.:33:28.

thing to do when confronted with a challenge is to stand tall

:33:29.:33:32.

and find a solution, That is why I am voting to remain

:33:33.:33:35.

on June 23rd and I am So, as before, Dominic,

:33:36.:33:40.

you have six minutes to question Caroline,

:33:41.:33:46.

off you go. The organisation which is trying to

:33:47.:33:58.

independently verify facts for the public estimate that around 50 to

:33:59.:34:03.

60% of UK law that are now made in Brussels. How high would that

:34:04.:34:07.

percentage have to be for you to be in favour of leaving the EU? It

:34:08.:34:11.

depends why those rules are being made in Brussels. They are being

:34:12.:34:15.

made because getting single market and we want to make sure there are

:34:16.:34:18.

strong social and environmental standards, I'm delighted that they

:34:19.:34:22.

are being made in Brussels, they should be come they are there

:34:23.:34:25.

because we want to make sure cross-border problems like air

:34:26.:34:29.

pollution are controlled because we have the ability to work

:34:30.:34:32.

cross-border in the EU, absolutely it should be there. Looking at bold

:34:33.:34:38.

figures does not help us. If 10 % of the laws were made in Brussels,

:34:39.:34:43.

fined by you? It's a bit ridiculous to think that not a single domestic

:34:44.:34:46.

law would be made in Britain. Things like housing and defence and some

:34:47.:34:53.

issues are still decided at UK level. Where would you draw the

:34:54.:34:57.

line? I'm trying to get a sense of when you think the tipping point

:34:58.:35:00.

arrives when we have lost so much of our democracy. I would challenge the

:35:01.:35:05.

premise of your question because the idea that the EU is fundamentally

:35:06.:35:09.

more undemocratic than with Minster is wrong. The government that you

:35:10.:35:13.

represent was elected with just 24% of the eligible vote, we have an

:35:14.:35:17.

unelected House of Lords, at least in the European institutions we have

:35:18.:35:21.

a parliament are through proportional representation and the

:35:22.:35:24.

Council of ministers which means that if a democratic oversight of

:35:25.:35:27.

the rules coming from Brussels. When the people watching the show get to

:35:28.:35:34.

hold to account the 27th of heads of government in the European Council,

:35:35.:35:37.

the 10th of thousands of bureaucrats and the 90% of MEPs not from

:35:38.:35:43.

Britain? -- tens of thousands. There are fewer people working for the

:35:44.:35:48.

interjections in Brussels than for Kent County Council for example --

:35:49.:35:52.

for the institutions. I would be the first to say that

:35:53.:36:04.

EU should be more democratic and accountable, I would like to see the

:36:05.:36:10.

European Parliament have more powers and the commission have fewer. To

:36:11.:36:14.

suggest that would be a reason for leaving the EU is just wrong, we

:36:15.:36:19.

need to be in there to fight it Net immigration from the EU was 184 000

:36:20.:36:23.

last year, that is the equivalent of a size city the size of Oxford. Do

:36:24.:36:31.

you think there should be any limit on the volume of immigration from

:36:32.:36:35.

the EU? Jeremy Corbyn said note this morning. I think it will be

:36:36.:36:40.

self-regulating to an extent because people are coming because the other

:36:41.:36:43.

fifth richest country in the world and there are jobs here. So we don't

:36:44.:36:48.

need a limit? To have an arbitrary limit would be ineffective and we

:36:49.:36:51.

have seen that from looking at your own promise to try to do by talking

:36:52.:36:55.

about bringing it down to tens of thousands. There is no way he can do

:36:56.:36:58.

that because there is more migration coming from outside the EU that

:36:59.:37:03.

inside anyway. Take Romania and Bulgaria, the average wage around ?3

:37:04.:37:08.

an hour, we have a minimum rate of ?7.20 an hour, eight strong pull

:37:09.:37:12.

factor which puts strains on the NHS and housing. If it up price worth

:37:13.:37:18.

paying for staying in? There are so many assumptions in your question.

:37:19.:37:21.

Most of the pressure on our housing and education and health system is

:37:22.:37:24.

coming from a lack of investment and cuts on the government, not from

:37:25.:37:28.

people coming in. In the NHS you are far more likely to be treated by

:37:29.:37:31.

someone who has come from another European country. There are some

:37:32.:37:35.

real challenges in there. I'm not saying that regression doesn't bring

:37:36.:37:40.

pressures but we should be recognising there is a net economic

:37:41.:37:44.

benefit that migrants bring with them so let's invest that properly

:37:45.:37:47.

in the services in the area. The latest report by the EU's

:37:48.:37:52.

anti-corruption body shows fraudulent abuse of EU funds at

:37:53.:37:56.

record levels, they have been criticised for not even implementing

:37:57.:38:01.

the first obligation under the UN's Convention against corruption. Under

:38:02.:38:05.

our aid policy, we would not give a penny of taxpayers money to a poor

:38:06.:38:08.

African country that would not comply with UN standards but we give

:38:09.:38:13.

billions to the EU. Are you comfortable with that? I'm not

:38:14.:38:16.

comfortable with corruption or fraud but I don't think the EU has a

:38:17.:38:20.

monopoly on that and many times the accounts have not been able to be

:38:21.:38:23.

signed up because individual nation states have not done their job

:38:24.:38:26.

properly, it is government at fault, not the EU. In your election

:38:27.:38:33.

manifesto you referred to the EU's unsustainable economic 's. Do you

:38:34.:38:38.

still hold that view? I think it is unsustainable whether at EU level or

:38:39.:38:42.

British level and the way to do that do that is to fight it in Britain

:38:43.:38:47.

and in the EU. Thank you to both of you.

:38:48.:38:48.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:49.:38:51.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:52.:38:53.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be

:38:54.:38:58.

talking about how the final week of this campaign could take shape.

:38:59.:39:02.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

:39:03.:39:16.

We're going to be continuing the discussion you've been having

:39:17.:39:23.

about the impact of Jo Cox's death and considering which way

:39:24.:39:25.

the capital will go in the EU referendum.

:39:26.:39:29.

With me to do that, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,

:39:30.:39:31.

supporter of the Remain case, and Theresa Villiers,

:39:32.:39:35.

Northern Ireland Secretary and Conservative MP

:39:36.:39:38.

for Chipping Barnet, who is campaigning to leave.

:39:39.:39:40.

Starting with the issue of security, both of you with high-profile jobs,

:39:41.:39:52.

what does this incident mean for you now? It is such a huge tragedy, it

:39:53.:40:00.

is just heartbreaking to think of two young children left without

:40:01.:40:03.

their mother. What I'm conscious of in the job I do where I often meet

:40:04.:40:08.

victims of attacks and murders and terrorism that took place many years

:40:09.:40:12.

ago, the pain for them can be just as intense many years on so my heart

:40:13.:40:17.

goes out to her family and I think all MPs will be reflecting on what

:40:18.:40:21.

more we can do to make sure we are as safe as possible, that we do

:40:22.:40:25.

everything we can to be secure but I don't think anybody will be pulling

:40:26.:40:29.

back. We will still be out and about in the community despite the fact it

:40:30.:40:33.

comes with risks. So there won't be a rush to new measures that cut MPs

:40:34.:40:43.

off or away from the public? I don't think so but it is important for us

:40:44.:40:47.

to reflect on what we can do individually to ensure that we are

:40:48.:40:49.

as secure as possible and I think also we are aware that, whilst we

:40:50.:40:53.

run risks, there are many other public servants like police officers

:40:54.:40:57.

and prison officers for whom risks are sadly even more significant

:40:58.:41:02.

Personally first, since being elected Mayor of London, had you had

:41:03.:41:05.

to review your own security arrangements? I'm not allowed to

:41:06.:41:09.

discuss it but there have been a lot of reviews and I'm quite clear that

:41:10.:41:13.

I want to use public transport, meat or American Londoners and be out and

:41:14.:41:20.

about as much as I can. -- I want to meet ordinary Londoners. It is part

:41:21.:41:24.

of being a public servant to be accessible, it keeps you anchored

:41:25.:41:28.

and you are in touch with voters and it is important. What none of us

:41:29.:41:34.

want is for that to change as a consequence of Jo's tragic death. Do

:41:35.:41:40.

you think it will not change? Risk assessment are done all the time.

:41:41.:41:46.

What is important is that it is done on a case-by-case basis. You don't

:41:47.:41:52.

throw the baby out with the bath water. One of the things that keeps

:41:53.:41:57.

us anchored is that we speak to our constituents, to Londoners and other

:41:58.:42:00.

people, they can approach us and that is important. Some have already

:42:01.:42:06.

raised the issue about whether the police were in the process of

:42:07.:42:11.

reviewing security for MPs. In your role and the close connection you

:42:12.:42:15.

have with the Metropolitan Police, had you had discussions with the

:42:16.:42:20.

commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, about any further action is needed

:42:21.:42:24.

to make MPs safer? My understanding is that the police are speaking to

:42:25.:42:28.

all MPs to make sure there is a risk assessment undertaken but it is not

:42:29.:42:33.

just us, it is our staff as well. It is important they are safe and we

:42:34.:42:39.

have a duty of care to them when it comes to surgeries and deterring bad

:42:40.:42:42.

people doing bad things and making sure our staff feel safe to work for

:42:43.:42:48.

a politician. Have you spoken to the Commissioner about this specific

:42:49.:42:52.

issue? We have been in touch since Jo's death. Is there anything they

:42:53.:42:57.

are doing directly as a result? They are doing a lot of things, but you

:42:58.:43:03.

will appreciate at this stage things are pretty fluid and I would not

:43:04.:43:08.

want to inadvertently reveal stuff before discussing it with MPs. But

:43:09.:43:14.

it is better assume that MPs are having conversations with police

:43:15.:43:17.

officers? Absolutely and they don't need to wait for the police to

:43:18.:43:22.

contact them, they should speak to the police and the Palace authority

:43:23.:43:25.

to make sure they feel safe in order to do their duty but also their

:43:26.:43:31.

staff and family as well. And a question of tone, is there too much

:43:32.:43:35.

hatred in the public discourse of late? I think it is a concern that,

:43:36.:43:42.

particularly on social media, people use the cloak of anonymity to say

:43:43.:43:48.

really poisonous and unpleasant and aggressive things about political

:43:49.:43:53.

figures. I think this is a reminder that the vast majority of people who

:43:54.:43:58.

go into public office do so for the rest of motives. People fully

:43:59.:44:02.

acknowledge that in the case of Jo Cox. She believed in what she was

:44:03.:44:06.

doing, she was doing it for the good of society and the vast majority of

:44:07.:44:11.

MPs do it for the same reason. Is there too much hatred? People have

:44:12.:44:16.

to make argument robustly. The vast majority of the public are decent

:44:17.:44:20.

and law-abiding and lovely. We must be tested, it is right to hold us to

:44:21.:44:25.

account, we love to debate, dare I say argue but the tone is important

:44:26.:44:30.

and I am concerned that in the recent weeks and months the tone is

:44:31.:44:32.

one where it encourages an environment of hatred. It is a

:44:33.:44:37.

poisonous atmosphere and if that could lead to people being

:44:38.:44:42.

encouraged or incited to behave in a hateful way. Turning to Europe, we

:44:43.:44:49.

will come onto the detail in a moment, but what clinches it for the

:44:50.:44:53.

Remain site in the coming days? I am a firm believer at looking at the

:44:54.:44:58.

evidence and the expert advice and as far as I'm concerned in the next

:44:59.:45:03.

few days, my job and those of us who want us to remain in the EU is to

:45:04.:45:08.

remind voters of the evidence and what the experts say. Remaining

:45:09.:45:13.

means jobs, trade, investment, lower prices. Leaving the lead in the

:45:14.:45:15.

dark. Democracy is at the heart of this.

:45:16.:45:25.

As a member of the EU, whoever you vote for at the general election,

:45:26.:45:29.

there are many things you cannot change. By far the safer option is

:45:30.:45:34.

to take that democratic control back over making laws in a run country.

:45:35.:45:41.

-- in our own country. Last week, we reported

:45:42.:45:43.

from Havering, on the outskirts of the capital, reputed to be one

:45:44.:45:47.

of the most Eurosceptic This week, we've gone to Lambeth,

:45:48.:45:49.

where the instinct to remain Andrew Cryan is in Brixton

:45:50.:45:53.

with more details. Yes, that is right. This comes down

:45:54.:45:59.

to a piece of research by the polling company YouGov. They asked

:46:00.:46:05.

80,000 people around the country, I really big number, their views on

:46:06.:46:09.

the European Union. They find that the strongest views for out were in

:46:10.:46:13.

the London Borough of Havering. We were there at that's -- we were

:46:14.:46:19.

there last week. This week we are at the other end of the skill, in

:46:20.:46:27.

Lambeth, I'd side the Ritzy Cinema. They won to leave more than any

:46:28.:46:31.

other place in England. We have been asking quite? -- they want to leave.

:46:32.:46:44.

For the last few weeks, the polls have been sailing this way and that.

:46:45.:46:47.

But there has been one near constant.

:46:48.:46:49.

Whatever the headline national figure, London shows up as wanting

:46:50.:46:51.

If the polls are to be believed that supporter is particularly

:46:52.:46:55.

concentrated in a certain type of London borough,

:46:56.:46:57.

which is near the middle of the city, relatively

:46:58.:46:59.

Places like Camden, Islington, Hackney, Southwark and so on.

:47:00.:47:03.

According to one bit of research, there is one London borough

:47:04.:47:05.

which is more pro-Remain than anywhere else in England

:47:06.:47:07.

In the heart of the borough is Brixton, sometimes said to be

:47:08.:47:11.

the symbolic centre of black Britain.

:47:12.:47:18.

When Nelson Mandela and Muhammad Ali visited,

:47:19.:47:19.

So, in 2016, will it also become the beating heart

:47:20.:47:48.

I have been walking around Brixton market for about an hour.

:47:49.:47:52.

We have met a couple of ins, a couple of outs, a lot of people

:47:53.:47:56.

who did not want to be filmed, somebody who did not know

:47:57.:47:58.

there was a referendum on, somebody who did not vote,

:47:59.:48:01.

somebody who did not understand the question.

:48:02.:48:02.

It is pretty fair to say that election fever is yet

:48:03.:48:05.

Are you swayed by the arguments on either side?

:48:06.:48:14.

I do not listen to anything, to be honest.

:48:15.:48:16.

If this really is the Remain camp's heartland, it could be in trouble.

:48:17.:48:22.

But luckily for inners, a 50 minute drive up the road

:48:23.:48:24.

in Kennington, we met up with campaigners having

:48:25.:48:26.

On the tube just now, two people approached me,

:48:27.:48:29.

That was coming down and nobody normally talks to each other

:48:30.:48:33.

on the tube so that is quite something in London.

:48:34.:48:36.

We have been campaigning every day in this area.

:48:37.:48:41.

We feel incredibly strongly to put out the Labour Party message that

:48:42.:48:44.

Labour believes Britain is stronger in Europe.

:48:45.:48:45.

We have done this so many times we have run out of leaflets.

:48:46.:48:48.

We just spotted these guys on the way to our latest campaign

:48:49.:48:53.

session and I thought I would grab some of theirs.

:48:54.:48:55.

Who are these people who are so keenly snapping up

:48:56.:48:57.

There might be a clue back up the road in Brixton again.

:48:58.:49:01.

Just around the corner from its traditional market

:49:02.:49:03.

is a new arrival, Pop Brixton, a box park full of fresh young

:49:04.:49:06.

businesses, social enterprises, hip things to do and

:49:07.:49:08.

Do you see negative things about the EU?

:49:09.:49:15.

Not really, only positive if I'm totally honest but I am

:49:16.:49:19.

all for immigration and letting people in who need a place to live.

:49:20.:49:22.

I really like the idea behind it, the philosophy behind the EU,

:49:23.:49:25.

remaining together for the greater good of the world.

:49:26.:49:27.

The reasons I would vote in, probably for our generation,

:49:28.:49:32.

I just think it kind of makes sense, and if you look at who the people

:49:33.:49:48.

are in the public eye who are voting out, I am definitely not down

:49:49.:49:52.

Where we did find strong support for Remain in Lambeth,

:49:53.:50:01.

again and again it came down to a positive view of

:50:02.:50:04.

migration, diversity and integration with Europe.

:50:05.:50:08.

Next Friday morning we will wake up to discover if enough of the UK

:50:09.:50:12.

feels that way for Britain to remain in the European Union.

:50:13.:50:19.

I am joined by Jonathan Bartley a local Green Party politician in

:50:20.:50:25.

Lambeth. Viewers might see more of him in the future. He is standing to

:50:26.:50:29.

be the leader of the party on a joint ticket with their only MP

:50:30.:50:34.

Caroline Lucas, and he is the bookmakers' favourite to get the

:50:35.:50:38.

job. Research suggests that Lambeth is the place in England that wants

:50:39.:50:44.

to stay in more than anywhere else why? It is the borrower of young

:50:45.:50:50.

people. It is there a future that is at stake. And we are at ease with

:50:51.:50:56.

migration. We have had it for generations. We do not see it as a

:50:57.:51:01.

threat. It is densely populated but we get by. The problems we face are

:51:02.:51:08.

caused by central government cuts, by a local council that does not

:51:09.:51:12.

listen, and not by the local Polish deli on the high street. Last week

:51:13.:51:18.

people said they wanted to leave because of NHS problems, house

:51:19.:51:22.

prices, getting a school place for their kids. They are problems people

:51:23.:51:28.

have in Lambeth. Why are they not voting out to solve them? It is the

:51:29.:51:34.

most unequal elephant in London People recognise that the inequality

:51:35.:51:38.

is not going to the lack of money. We are richer than we have been we

:51:39.:51:42.

have more technological advances than we have ever had, the problem

:51:43.:51:48.

is the money is in the wrong hands. There is a move against

:51:49.:51:50.

gentrification in Lambeth. There is resentment about lots of rich people

:51:51.:51:55.

coming into the elephant. It is not the migrants that are doing that, it

:51:56.:51:59.

is the wealthy that are hoarding the money. That is the cause. You talk

:52:00.:52:05.

about gentrification, richer and younger people coming into the

:52:06.:52:10.

elephant. In the film, it was amongst that group of young,

:52:11.:52:14.

professional people that saw a real support for Remain, that other than

:52:15.:52:20.

the traditional population? I love the diversity of Lambeth. You get

:52:21.:52:24.

people living side-by-side from different backgrounds. The fact we

:52:25.:52:28.

can make it work is evidence that we are stronger together in the

:52:29.:52:31.

European Union. What is missing from the debate but what people in

:52:32.:52:35.

Lambeth get, there is a positive case for the European Union to be

:52:36.:52:40.

made, positive vision. We are looking at the future, not just that

:52:41.:52:43.

what we would lose by leaving, but what we would gain by staying in. We

:52:44.:52:51.

have people with additional needs, disabled people, they need help that

:52:52.:52:54.

they will not get from this government. They will get it from

:52:55.:52:57.

the European Union and will people recognise that and come together to

:52:58.:53:02.

work for it. Jonathan Bartley, thank you. Just a final thought, talking

:53:03.:53:07.

to people in Lambeth, some people did not understand why anybody would

:53:08.:53:14.

vote out. In Havering last week we met people who did not have any

:53:15.:53:18.

conception of why people would want to stay in the European Union. They

:53:19.:53:22.

had not met people from the other side. Although we are one city, it

:53:23.:53:28.

seems that in some ways we are very polarised. Teresa Romero is, what

:53:29.:53:33.

would you say to convince the people of Brixton and Lambeth over the next

:53:34.:53:37.

few days? I think we face a bright future outside the European Union.

:53:38.:53:42.

We will regain control over our trade policy which opens up business

:53:43.:53:46.

opportunities around the world. We will get a great deal from the

:53:47.:53:49.

European Union and carry on doing business with them in the way we do

:53:50.:53:54.

now. We will have control of our own destiny, able to have democratic

:53:55.:53:57.

control over the people who make our lives, so if they get it wrong, we

:53:58.:54:02.

can vote them out at the general election, which we cannot do at the

:54:03.:54:08.

moment. Sadiq Khan, this weekend campaigning in Manchester and Leeds

:54:09.:54:11.

might, why have you been needed to go and campaign their? It is in the

:54:12.:54:18.

interests of country to campaign to stay in the European Union. I been

:54:19.:54:22.

speaking to people in the north-west, explaining why it is

:54:23.:54:27.

important to stay in, for our country. We join Nato and the union

:54:28.:54:32.

in the 1940s. We joined the G7 and the EU in the 1970s. It leads to

:54:33.:54:39.

jobs, trade and investment. We are part of a single market of 500

:54:40.:54:43.

million customers, with one set of rules which we help make. We do 50%

:54:44.:54:48.

of our trade with them. Why would we walk away? Why would that club allow

:54:49.:54:54.

us to get the benefits of that club, not pay the fees, not abide by their

:54:55.:54:59.

rules, when people who are members cannot get those benefits? We would

:55:00.:55:05.

have to pay to trade. Is one of the reasons why you have been heading up

:55:06.:55:09.

to northern areas because of your concerns about how, under your

:55:10.:55:13.

leader Jeremy Corbyn, there has been what people describe as a less than

:55:14.:55:18.

sparkling campaign to Remain? I think it will be a close election.

:55:19.:55:24.

What do you say about his campaign? He has been campaigning all around

:55:25.:55:28.

the country. He was on the BBC this morning talking to the British

:55:29.:55:33.

public. All of us have been campaigning in the Labour Party

:55:34.:55:36.

With three days to go it is important that people turn out to

:55:37.:55:41.

vote to remain. We are not quitters. There is a proud case to remain You

:55:42.:55:46.

mentioned an appearance on television today, but a lot of it

:55:47.:55:50.

has been town hall meetings. You said last week you did not think

:55:51.:55:56.

that had been cutting through. What should he have been doing? It is

:55:57.:56:00.

more exciting, Boris against Cameron, Michael Gove against Nigel

:56:01.:56:10.

Farage. We have three days to go. -- Michael Gove Nigel Farage. You have

:56:11.:56:16.

no issues with the way he has been less than warm about the case for

:56:17.:56:23.

remaining? He thinks that the EU is not perfect. I do not think it is

:56:24.:56:28.

perfect either. He has been explaining the pros and cons, and on

:56:29.:56:37.

balance, it is better to stay. Is there a risk to jobs in London?

:56:38.:56:42.

Organisations like this said that this would be the consequence of not

:56:43.:56:48.

joining the Euro. They were wrong. They are also wrong now. At the

:56:49.:56:53.

heart of the item and for the Remain case, is that somehow this country

:56:54.:56:58.

is too small, too weak, too stupid to run run affairs. That is wrong.

:56:59.:57:03.

We have the greatest financial centre on the planet, the best

:57:04.:57:08.

universities, some of the greatest scientist, we are the fifth biggest

:57:09.:57:12.

economy in world. We invented self-governing democracy and

:57:13.:57:15.

exported around the world. We can run a run affairs. You know that all

:57:16.:57:21.

the major organisations, the business organisations, the city

:57:22.:57:23.

Corporation, are warning of the impact of this. One example, people,

:57:24.:57:29.

and set up their headquarters in London, in the financial sector

:57:30.:57:33.

because it gives them away into the single market. You would be removing

:57:34.:57:39.

that? There are around 75 banks which passport into London. It will

:57:40.:57:42.

be in the interests of the EU to do a good trade deal with us, because

:57:43.:57:47.

they sell more to us than we do to them. It is not in their interest

:57:48.:57:51.

clause of the access of their banks to London or to a wrecked trade

:57:52.:57:55.

barriers, because it will make it more difficult for them to sell

:57:56.:57:59.

goods and services to us. Do we have to many EU migrants in the capital?

:58:00.:58:07.

I was elected on a commitment to reduce migration to hundreds of

:58:08.:58:09.

thousands. I will be working to do all I can they need that manifesto

:58:10.:58:14.

commitment. Tens of thousands, I think. Yes, to reduce it to tens of

:58:15.:58:21.

thousands. An interesting slip. Obviously migration has delivered

:58:22.:58:25.

tremendous benefits to London. Everyone accepts that. There is also

:58:26.:58:30.

a need for democratic control over migration. It is important we have

:58:31.:58:35.

democratic control over decisions as sensitive as that. Should there be

:58:36.:58:41.

an upper limit, Sadiq Khan? No. David Cameron managed to make a good

:58:42.:58:46.

deal with the European Union. EU immigrants who come here work and

:58:47.:58:49.

pay taxes and support our public services. 130,000 EU migrants are

:58:50.:58:57.

working in the NHS and social care. 1.5 million Brits work for companies

:58:58.:59:04.

owned by EU citizens. ?20 billion has been contributed since 2001 I

:59:05.:59:14.

think. You have no concern about the numbers. Of course, we have to

:59:15.:59:24.

manage migration. The problem is the League campaign cannot explain what

:59:25.:59:29.

would happen if we left the EU. Australia, Norway and Switzerland

:59:30.:59:32.

have more immigration pair had than we have under the current rules You

:59:33.:59:36.

do not think there should be an upper limit? You will just see what

:59:37.:59:41.

the market provides? Do you have any concerns at all about the pressure

:59:42.:59:46.

on services, schools, the delay to see a GP, pressures on health

:59:47.:59:50.

services? The deal we have got means that knowing your country can join

:59:51.:59:55.

the European Union without having a veto to stop them, but also, new

:59:56.:59:58.

countries that joined cannot have their citizens come to our country,

:59:59.:00:03.

unless we are happy for them to do so. As far as public services are

:00:04.:00:07.

concerned, the responsibility for them not being enough genuinely

:00:08.:00:12.

affordable homes, it is not the immigrants, it is politicians. The

:00:13.:00:16.

NHS has been starved of investment because of government policy. We

:00:17.:00:19.

need to build enough affordable homes. We should invest in the NHS.

:00:20.:00:27.

EU immigrants support the NHS and social care, and support our

:00:28.:00:30.

schools. We should be addressing concerns is politicians rather than

:00:31.:00:33.

playing on them. What do you say to that?

:00:34.:00:37.

My question has brought tremendous benefits to London, which are great

:00:38.:00:43.

example of a global city with connections all around the world but

:00:44.:00:47.

it is important that we have the ability to control the numbers

:00:48.:00:50.

coming in from Europe because the pressure public services and it is

:00:51.:00:54.

important that we have confidence in the immigration system. What about

:00:55.:00:59.

improving public services because they are in the beating to our tax

:01:00.:01:04.

returns? We are working to do all we can to deliver more housing and

:01:05.:01:08.

improve public services but it is still the case that significant

:01:09.:01:11.

population growth does create pressure and that is one of the

:01:12.:01:15.

reasons why we need to take back democratic control over decisions.

:01:16.:01:19.

And does it really suppress the wages of Londoners? The Bank of

:01:20.:01:24.

England is clear that significant increase in migration depress wages

:01:25.:01:29.

so that it an impact felt today It is a very small effect, 1% or

:01:30.:01:36.

something. Thereupon 03%. You may not think it is significant but

:01:37.:01:40.

people on lower incomes and low skilled work, it is a significant

:01:41.:01:45.

impact on them and we should bear their interests in mind. There are

:01:46.:01:48.

some people in London who benefit from the EU but there are many who

:01:49.:01:54.

are having their wages depressed. Martin Lewis has said that if we

:01:55.:01:58.

leave the EU it is more likely you will have less money in your pocket,

:01:59.:02:03.

it is a fact, experts and evidence points to leaving the EU being bad

:02:04.:02:04.

for jobs and the economy. So, we're entering the final stage

:02:05.:02:05.

of this referendum campaign and it's What do the campaigns have

:02:06.:02:18.

left up their sleeves, and what will be the impact

:02:19.:02:23.

of the papers and Parliament is recalled tomorrow to

:02:24.:02:45.

pay tribute to Jo Cox. That will influence the campaign and take our

:02:46.:02:50.

eyes away from it. We have David Cameron tonight on question Time on

:02:51.:02:56.

BBC One and the big debate from Wembley on BBC One on Tuesday night.

:02:57.:03:01.

How will the final couple of days be? What should we be looking for?

:03:02.:03:06.

It will be more muted than otherwise had it not been for the killing of

:03:07.:03:11.

Jo Cox. I think there is no appetite on either side to return to some of

:03:12.:03:15.

the vociferous nurse of the past month or two. Muted but also quite

:03:16.:03:23.

settled -- the vociferous nature. The campaign is decided in that we

:03:24.:03:26.

know what the issues are but the ultimate question is do you dislike

:03:27.:03:32.

immigration more than you like economic calm and that is the test

:03:33.:03:38.

on Thursday. What impresses me about the Wembley Arena debate on Tuesday

:03:39.:03:45.

is who Remain have chosen as their three debaters. 2-mac of them are

:03:46.:03:49.

clearly designed to pitch to Labour voters, Sadiq Khan... We can see

:03:50.:03:57.

them on the screen. Vadis O'Grady and Sadiq Khan are clearly designed

:03:58.:04:04.

to appeal to the Labour voters - Frances O'Grady. Even Ruth Davidson

:04:05.:04:11.

is a centrist conservative and perhaps better to appeal to Scottish

:04:12.:04:17.

Labour Party voters. You look on the Leave side, Boris Johnson, and Ryan

:04:18.:04:31.

Ledson -- Andrea Leadsom. Looking at that, which is the stronger team? I

:04:32.:04:39.

think the Leave team, if that does not sound too partisan, in terms of

:04:40.:04:43.

dynamism and vitality of personality. There may be some

:04:44.:04:49.

surprises, remaining Ake might put some fresh faces but there are no

:04:50.:04:55.

fresh arguments. There is only now a semantic problem. This item is now

:04:56.:05:01.

anti-uncontrolled immigration and that is an important factor, this is

:05:02.:05:06.

not about uncertainty in an absolute sense because there is uncertainty

:05:07.:05:11.

on both sides. It has now got the point where it is a question of who

:05:12.:05:18.

gets the best formulation. Anything can happen in a big debate,

:05:19.:05:24.

particularly one with 6000 people being there. If I was a Remain

:05:25.:05:32.

strategist, I would be worried that team is a bit underpowered for this

:05:33.:05:38.

big event. I would agree. We might all know Frances O'Grady but I'm not

:05:39.:05:43.

sure anybody us in the country might unless you are a team of of the TUC.

:05:44.:05:48.

Leave a gone with the same team that they thought did well in the eye

:05:49.:05:55.

debate -- in the ITV debate. The main have gone with three different

:05:56.:05:59.

characters. It suggests that they have some new tactics. The last time

:06:00.:06:05.

when we saw Amber Rudd exec are going viciously for Boris Johnson,

:06:06.:06:09.

this one is all about getting out your base vote. People know the

:06:10.:06:16.

arguments, even if you're not been tuning into it has been flooding in

:06:17.:06:21.

subconsciously. It is about motivating your supporters to go to

:06:22.:06:25.

the polls will stop one thing on the Remain choice, Ruth Davidson. We set

:06:26.:06:34.

up a debate of our own, a cab that goes round and interviews people,

:06:35.:06:41.

and we wanted, Ruth Davidson was put up and we could not get a single

:06:42.:06:46.

person in the Leave campaign to debate her. Because they were

:06:47.:06:52.

frightened of her? Yes. She is exceptionally good and smart, when

:06:53.:06:56.

it comes to those one-liners, and if she can pull one off against

:06:57.:07:00.

somebody like Boris Johnson, that could do... But there could be a

:07:01.:07:05.

danger. Let me put it diplomatically, she is not Boris

:07:06.:07:09.

Johnson's biggest fan and Boris Johnson already got attacked by

:07:10.:07:15.

Amber Rudd in the ITV debate. If we go down that road again, it could

:07:16.:07:19.

rebound on them. You could argue that what Amber Rudd got wrong was

:07:20.:07:24.

the tone with which she attacked Boris Johnson and a more skilful

:07:25.:07:28.

politician, like Ruth Davidson, could pull off the same line but

:07:29.:07:33.

deliver it in a better way. The point about scripting is

:07:34.:07:37.

interesting. I was talking to somebody in number ten a couple of

:07:38.:07:41.

days ago who were saying that when you briefed politicians you usually

:07:42.:07:46.

have to give them the killer line on the opponent but with Ruth Davidson

:07:47.:07:49.

you have to do nothing. She is across all the details and she can

:07:50.:07:54.

come up with a venomous whip at the end of a sentence. One thing also

:07:55.:07:59.

very clear from this Remain team is that they are worried about Labour

:08:00.:08:03.

voters who will be key to this and if they are so angry about scare

:08:04.:08:12.

tactics and immigration, they will bring victory to the Leave campaign

:08:13.:08:15.

and that is what people are worried about. This is an identity crisis

:08:16.:08:19.

for the Labour Party, even more than the Conservative Party. David

:08:20.:08:25.

Cameron is on a Question Time special tonight. Michael Gove did

:08:26.:08:34.

one last week. Life programmes with an audience are always tricky but

:08:35.:08:38.

David Cameron knows how to do these things. This is his forte, the

:08:39.:08:43.

medium of his choice which is precisely why it is happening. What

:08:44.:08:49.

will be most interesting tonight is his tone he chooses. The post Jo Cox

:08:50.:08:57.

tragedy age of trying to be nicer to each other, personally I don't think

:08:58.:09:00.

George Osborne succeeded this morning. He can't really do

:09:01.:09:06.

uplifting, happy politics. Even Paddy Ashdown fell into the trap!

:09:07.:09:12.

Two whole years of British politics we have spent campaigning and we

:09:13.:09:16.

haven't stopped, the Scottish referendum into the general

:09:17.:09:21.

election. And the Prime Minister is exhausting. Negative campaigning

:09:22.:09:25.

works. If the PM does the uplifting stuff, that might work better than

:09:26.:09:30.

the scare stories. There is a lot of talk about politicians attacking

:09:31.:09:34.

each other but there is a middle ground about how they are attacking

:09:35.:09:38.

the electorate. The idea of terrifying pages into thinking that

:09:39.:09:40.

the triple lock on their pensions will have to be withdrawn, the

:09:41.:09:45.

sacred promise that Cameron made, if they vote the wrong way, that was

:09:46.:09:51.

disgusting. There is a lot of attempt to put the fear of God up

:09:52.:09:54.

the electorate which has been extremely unattractive. We have had

:09:55.:09:59.

newspaper endorsements, the editorials have come out as usual

:10:00.:10:02.

the Sunday before an important election. The main have the Mail on

:10:03.:10:06.

Sunday, the Observer, the mirror, the people. Leave have the sun on

:10:07.:10:13.

Sunday, the Sunday Telegraph, the Sunday Times and the Sunday express.

:10:14.:10:17.

It is fashionable to say that editorials don't matter but

:10:18.:10:21.

politicians still crave for them to come down on their side. They must

:10:22.:10:26.

have some importance. But if we are heading to a very close result,

:10:27.:10:32.

51-49, even a minimal impact it a significant impact. They matter in

:10:33.:10:39.

this referendum but what is interesting is the way that some

:10:40.:10:42.

newspaper houses have split with the times being pro-leave, the Daily

:10:43.:10:48.

Mail wanting to leave but the Mail on Sunday wanting to remain will

:10:49.:10:51.

stop a lot of people will be cynical and say that these are newspaper

:10:52.:10:57.

proprietors covering their bets I think it is a good reflection on the

:10:58.:11:00.

industry and the editors being given their head to decide a large

:11:01.:11:04.

existential question for the country. When we go into the vote on

:11:05.:11:14.

Friday morning, on Thursday morning, where will we be? Will we know the

:11:15.:11:23.

result? As it was in 1975. Or will it be like the general election last

:11:24.:11:26.

year when even those who thought they knew the result didn't? I think

:11:27.:11:30.

it will be a very long night and we might not know the result until the

:11:31.:11:36.

same time on Friday morning. Polls are polls, snapshots, maybe there

:11:37.:11:42.

are shy people on both sides. The key is getting your vote out. I

:11:43.:11:46.

genuinely have no idea which way it will go. Whichever campaign can put

:11:47.:11:50.

more of their people through the polling station wins. What I'm not

:11:51.:11:59.

clever about, does Remain continue to put about the terrible economic

:12:00.:12:02.

consequences if we leave from their point of view? And does Leave carry

:12:03.:12:08.

on about immigration? Are we going to get more of the same with maybe a

:12:09.:12:12.

different tone after what has happened but fundamentally the same

:12:13.:12:19.

things. Those are the headlines but there are subtle argument and I wish

:12:20.:12:24.

they were getting more attention. I wish the Leave campaign were

:12:25.:12:27.

stressing more the uncertainty economically of the EU. It may be

:12:28.:12:34.

too late. It has been said but it is not a headline. We have them

:12:35.:12:40.

questions about the risks of remaining. But the media attention

:12:41.:12:47.

has been on the risks. You would expect the change proposition to be

:12:48.:12:52.

the one that embodies the risk. The EU is a volatile and some would say

:12:53.:12:59.

failing project. I understand that. That is your point of view. How will

:13:00.:13:07.

we vote? To stay in by a margin of 55-45. That would be healthy. I

:13:08.:13:16.

think it will be Leave by a squeak. Remain. We will bring them back next

:13:17.:13:20.

week to see if they are right. The Daily Politics will be

:13:21.:13:23.

back at noon tomorrow, and the Sunday Politics will be back

:13:24.:13:26.

for a special extended show to take in all the news following the result

:13:27.:13:30.

of the EU referendum. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:31.:13:43.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:44.:13:47.

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