12/03/2017 Sunday Politics London


12/03/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the Brexit bill with UKIP's Nigel Farage and Conservative MP Anna Soubry.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:39.

David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:40.:00:44.

ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:45.:00:46.

We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:47.:00:51.

Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:52.:00:54.

But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:00:55.:01:02.

And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:03.:01:04.

We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

:01:05.:01:15.

In London this week, a rise in anti-Semitic

:01:16.:01:17.

Universities urged to take a tougher approach.

:01:18.:01:20.

And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

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who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

:01:33.:01:36.

It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

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abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

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BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

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So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

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perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

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Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

:01:58.:02:00.

getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

:02:01.:02:03.

Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

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earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

:02:06.:02:07.

Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

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There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

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That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

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The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

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My job, and the job of the government, is to make

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the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

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There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

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it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

:02:57.:02:59.

government means by a meaningful vote.

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I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:02.:03:08.

for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

:03:09.:03:12.

think it would be politically impossible for the government to

:03:13.:03:15.

reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

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politics will be completely different by then. I take David

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Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

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being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

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Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

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three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

:03:34.:03:37.

is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

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floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:42.:03:45.

than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:46.:03:49.

would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:50.:03:54.

still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

:03:55.:04:00.

of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

:04:01.:04:03.

the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:04.:04:05.

for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

:04:06.:04:10.

case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

:04:11.:04:14.

EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

:04:15.:04:19.

the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

:04:20.:04:22.

countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:23.:04:27.

not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

:04:28.:04:31.

EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

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the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

:04:35.:04:38.

have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

:04:39.:04:41.

Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

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government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

:04:46.:04:49.

deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

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Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

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the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

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back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

:05:03.:05:06.

without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

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know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

:05:11.:05:15.

one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

:05:16.:05:21.

Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

:05:22.:05:25.

worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

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But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

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if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

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the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

:05:42.:05:45.

is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

:05:46.:05:49.

two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

:05:50.:05:56.

vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

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if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

:06:01.:06:06.

government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

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government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

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it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

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we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

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referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

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government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

:06:27.:06:30.

changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

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fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

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deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

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The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

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deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

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a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

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holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

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So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

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That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

:07:02.:07:05.

to vote against their government on two key issues.

:07:06.:07:07.

Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

:07:08.:07:11.

partners within days, but there may be some

:07:12.:07:13.

wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

:07:14.:07:15.

Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

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The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

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But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

:07:23.:07:30.

the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

:07:31.:07:34.

Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

:07:35.:07:37.

a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

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But remember those numbers, they're important.

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On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

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been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

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I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

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on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

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And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

:08:01.:08:05.

the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

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When the government was criticised for reeling back

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from when and what it would offer a vote on.

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The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

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And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

:08:24.:08:31.

of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

:08:32.:08:34.

The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

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Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

:08:39.:08:42.

the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

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But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

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Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

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On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

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At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

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Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

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If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

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Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

:09:10.:09:15.

So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

:09:16.:09:22.

What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

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I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

:09:26.:09:28.

This building is a really important building.

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It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

:09:32.:09:32.

And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

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But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

:09:37.:09:43.

vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

:09:44.:09:49.

It was already said about David Jones.

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It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

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I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

:09:54.:09:58.

through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

:09:59.:10:01.

We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:02.:10:05.

One said the situation was sad and depressing.

:10:06.:10:09.

The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

:10:10.:10:12.

A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

:10:13.:10:19.

of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

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But that its position was unlikely to change.

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And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

:10:26.:10:28.

That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

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round would look silly if they did, this time.

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It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

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about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

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last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

:10:46.:10:49.

There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

:10:50.:10:52.

Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

:10:53.:10:54.

rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

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The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

:10:59.:11:00.

that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

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If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

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Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

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it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

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have already indicated they won't block it again.

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It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

:11:17.:11:19.

would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

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Her own deadline was the end of this month.

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But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

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We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

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She's previously voted against the government on the question

:11:35.:11:36.

of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

:11:37.:11:43.

Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

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what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

:11:50.:11:52.

vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

:11:53.:11:57.

for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

:11:58.:12:01.

Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

:12:02.:12:07.

accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

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think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

:12:12.:12:15.

that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:16.:12:19.

event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

:12:20.:12:24.

in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:25.:12:28.

means through your elected representatives, the people of this

:12:29.:12:32.

country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

:12:33.:12:37.

get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

:12:38.:12:39.

Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

:12:40.:12:44.

want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

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They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

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he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

:12:56.:13:01.

to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

:13:02.:13:08.

on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

:13:09.:13:12.

have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:13.:13:15.

will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

:13:16.:13:19.

what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

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which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

:13:24.:13:27.

said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

:13:28.:13:33.

don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

:13:34.:13:37.

matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

:13:38.:13:40.

if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

:13:41.:13:44.

there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

:13:45.:13:51.

vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

:13:52.:13:53.

what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

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Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:14:00.:14:02.

with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

:14:03.:14:06.

which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

:14:07.:14:10.

speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

:14:11.:14:15.

I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

:14:16.:14:18.

about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

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amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

:14:27.:14:28.

call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

:14:29.:14:31.

agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

:14:32.:14:34.

Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

:14:35.:14:38.

Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

:14:39.:14:43.

deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

:14:44.:14:47.

complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

:14:48.:14:51.

you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:52.:14:56.

process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

:14:57.:15:00.

from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

:15:01.:15:04.

and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

:15:05.:15:11.

the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

:15:12.:15:15.

WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

:15:16.:15:18.

might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

:15:19.:15:23.

government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

:15:24.:15:25.

is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

:15:26.:15:36.

asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

:15:37.:15:41.

ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

:15:42.:15:47.

jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

:15:48.:15:51.

and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

:15:52.:15:57.

not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

:15:58.:16:01.

have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

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WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

:16:08.:16:12.

what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

:16:13.:16:18.

tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

:16:19.:16:23.

either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

:16:24.:16:27.

I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

:16:28.:16:32.

likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

:16:33.:16:35.

clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

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has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

:16:40.:16:43.

with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

:16:44.:16:49.

Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:50.:16:55.

there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:16:56.:17:00.

not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

:17:01.:17:07.

like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:08.:17:11.

but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

:17:12.:17:17.

uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:18.:17:23.

country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:24.:17:27.

an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:28.:17:30.

frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

:17:31.:17:36.

of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

:17:37.:17:41.

voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:42.:17:44.

ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

:17:45.:17:46.

and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

:17:47.:17:58.

the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:17:59.:18:02.

complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

:18:03.:18:06.

triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:07.:18:10.

not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

:18:11.:18:15.

summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

:18:16.:18:18.

give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:19.:18:23.

what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:24.:18:27.

under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:28.:18:32.

Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:33.:18:37.

in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:38.:18:41.

biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:42.:18:45.

in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:46.:18:50.

could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:51.:18:55.

approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:56.:18:57.

Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:18:58.:19:03.

to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:04.:19:07.

much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:08.:19:11.

come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:12.:19:16.

ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:17.:19:23.

different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:24.:19:26.

adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:27.:19:34.

Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:35.:19:40.

reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:41.:19:45.

performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:46.:19:48.

heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:49.:19:55.

am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:19:56.:20:01.

described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:02.:20:05.

around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:06.:20:11.

that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:12.:20:19.

voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:20.:20:25.

billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:26.:20:29.

do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:30.:20:33.

Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:34.:20:41.

commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:42.:20:47.

frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:48.:20:52.

accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:53.:20:57.

have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:58.:21:00.

of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:21:01.:21:06.

transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:07.:21:11.

divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:12.:21:16.

the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:17.:21:21.

We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:22.:21:28.

what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:29.:21:33.

about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:34.:21:37.

expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:38.:21:42.

government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:43.:21:47.

parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:48.:21:50.

election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:51.:21:56.

two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:21:57.:22:00.

better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:01.:22:05.

regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:06.:22:08.

would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:09.:22:15.

negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:16.:22:22.

this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:23.:22:27.

police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:28.:22:31.

seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:32.:22:37.

the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:38.:22:40.

aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:41.:22:47.

dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:48.:22:53.

whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:54.:22:58.

wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:22:59.:23:06.

in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:07.:23:13.

done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:14.:23:18.

about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:19.:23:25.

evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:26.:23:29.

making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:30.:23:35.

other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:36.:23:42.

result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:43.:23:46.

fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:47.:23:51.

probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:52.:23:57.

eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:23:58.:24:01.

is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:02.:24:04.

to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:05.:24:10.

of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:11.:24:14.

Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:15.:24:19.

whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:20.:24:23.

general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:24.:24:28.

The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:29.:24:32.

than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:33.:24:40.

unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:41.:24:44.

be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:45.:24:49.

more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:50.:24:55.

billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:56.:24:58.

Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:24:59.:25:03.

money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:04.:25:08.

crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:09.:25:13.

six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:14.:25:19.

the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:20.:25:23.

months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:24.:25:28.

people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:29.:25:32.

it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:33.:25:36.

happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:37.:25:41.

bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:42.:25:46.

cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:47.:25:51.

process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:52.:25:57.

fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:25:58.:26:01.

someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:02.:26:08.

It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:09.:26:14.

with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:15.:26:17.

market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:18.:26:22.

with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:23.:26:26.

a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:27.:26:35.

interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:36.:26:36.

than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:37.:26:41.

budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:42.:26:43.

affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:44.:26:49.

to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:50.:26:51.

in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:52.:26:53.

as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:26:54.:27:02.

more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:03.:27:04.

on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:05.:27:07.

a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:08.:27:10.

from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:11.:27:17.

and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:18.:27:21.

more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:22.:27:25.

with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:26.:27:31.

voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:32.:27:34.

in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:35.:27:35.

Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:36.:27:41.

"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:42.:27:43.

said the government One of the first things I did

:27:44.:27:46.

as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:47.:27:52.

and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:53.:27:56.

and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:57.:27:59.

at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:28:00.:28:01.

all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:02.:28:04.

be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:05.:28:09.

to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:10.:28:13.

there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:14.:28:15.

a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:16.:28:29.

the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:30.:28:34.

the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:35.:28:38.

commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:39.:28:42.

are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:43.:28:48.

what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:49.:28:53.

quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:54.:28:57.

decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:28:58.:29:00.

fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:01.:29:09.

will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:10.:29:11.

particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:12.:29:18.

general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:19.:29:23.

self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:24.:29:28.

are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:29.:29:32.

McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:33.:29:37.

parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:38.:29:41.

rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:42.:29:45.

people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:46.:29:50.

rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:51.:29:53.

economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:54.:29:58.

is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:29:59.:30:03.

not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:04.:30:08.

base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:09.:30:12.

is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:13.:30:19.

said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:20.:30:24.

politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:25.:30:30.

this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:31.:30:33.

you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:34.:30:38.

Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:39.:30:42.

tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:43.:30:45.

I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:46.:30:55.

people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:56.:30:59.

real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:31:00.:31:01.

they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:02.:31:06.

politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:07.:31:09.

turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:10.:31:10.

women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:11.:31:19.

the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:20.:31:23.

self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:24.:31:28.

tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:29.:31:32.

it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:33.:31:37.

know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:38.:31:43.

flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:44.:31:46.

enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:47.:31:50.

third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:51.:31:55.

like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:56.:31:57.

don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:31:58.:32:02.

And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:03.:32:06.

people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:07.:32:09.

people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:10.:32:14.

self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:15.:32:20.

tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:21.:32:24.

?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:25.:32:28.

If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:29.:32:32.

between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:33.:32:39.

employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:40.:32:43.

as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:44.:32:52.

the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:53.:32:56.

that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:32:57.:33:00.

We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:01.:33:04.

matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:05.:33:08.

self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:09.:33:12.

who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:13.:33:20.

side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:21.:33:24.

technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:25.:33:29.

taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:30.:33:33.

part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:34.:33:35.

models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:36.:33:41.

fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:42.:33:45.

tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:46.:33:47.

Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:48.:33:49.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:50.:33:54.

we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:55.:33:58.

of Donald Trump's allegation that he had been put

:33:59.:34:05.

under surveillance by First though, the Sunday

:34:06.:34:07.

Politics where you are. Is anti-Semitism on the rise among

:34:08.:34:14.

students and academics? We're looking at what's

:34:15.:34:20.

happening on campus and asking whether universities

:34:21.:34:22.

are taking a tough enough approach. Here with me throughout:

:34:23.:34:29.

Mark Field, Conservative MP for the Cities of

:34:30.:34:31.

London and Westminster. And Meg Hillier, Labour MP

:34:32.:34:33.

for Hackney South and Shoreditch, and the chair of the Public Accounts

:34:34.:34:35.

Committee. Which we always say is very

:34:36.:34:38.

influential, so we are very pleased A quick word to kick

:34:39.:34:40.

off on the Budget. Your view on the row

:34:41.:34:45.

over the self-employed. There was a row and clearly

:34:46.:34:48.

we will look at this again. I personally felt that

:34:49.:34:58.

the benefits of this, step towards a signification

:34:59.:35:00.

of the tax process. One of the things I hope

:35:01.:35:03.

Philip Hammond will put into place in the November budget

:35:04.:35:06.

and indeed in budgets in future years is to try and get

:35:07.:35:08.

a far simpler tax system. As Meg will confirm,

:35:09.:35:13.

at this point at least, a more complicated tax system opens

:35:14.:35:15.

the door to tax avoidance and we need to try to make sure we get

:35:16.:35:18.

as much tax as possible. Lots of people in London

:35:19.:35:21.

in this position. You will appreciate

:35:22.:35:23.

that in your position. What's not to like,

:35:24.:35:26.

in the long-term? To break a manifesto promise and not

:35:27.:35:29.

realise it was coming was I represent a lot of

:35:30.:35:34.

self-employed people To come out of the blue like

:35:35.:35:37.

that is not really the way to do it. No, you can't just say

:35:38.:35:43.

we will do one thing and say It's much more

:35:44.:35:46.

complicated than that. If you're going to talk about

:35:47.:35:50.

simplification of tax, that's a In fairness, it's

:35:51.:35:53.

a slight grey area. To say it was a manifesto

:35:54.:35:55.

promise breach, there was a grey area about it

:35:56.:35:58.

but I accept it wasn't handled quite as skilfully

:35:59.:36:00.

as it might have been. I think we will get it

:36:01.:36:02.

right in a month's time. The promise was to make this a very

:36:03.:36:05.

brief talking point and we've Let's look in more detail

:36:06.:36:08.

at what was on offer for the capital Across Britain, local

:36:09.:36:12.

areas will take control of their own economic destiny

:36:13.:36:15.

and we will support them to do so. I can inform the House that I have

:36:16.:36:18.

reached a deal with the Mayor At last, the announcement in this

:36:19.:36:21.

week's budget of the much anticipated devolution

:36:22.:36:26.

deal for London. That includes plans to pilot

:36:27.:36:28.

a new model to fund the capital's infrastructure, to co-commission

:36:29.:36:31.

criminal justice services with the government,

:36:32.:36:33.

health care powers to be announced later this month and the retention

:36:34.:36:35.

of all business rates by London. There's a commitment to piloting,

:36:36.:36:43.

to trying out further steps towards what will be a full move

:36:44.:36:46.

to London holding all its business And at that time, one would hope

:36:47.:36:49.

London's local government would have greater freedom

:36:50.:36:57.

in the use of resources and be less dependent on government grants

:36:58.:37:00.

from that point onwards. According to research

:37:01.:37:05.

by the Institution of Siscal Studies, that's not

:37:06.:37:07.

necessarily what we'll be The valuation rate of London

:37:08.:37:08.

businesses paying about ?800 million But London councils don't

:37:09.:37:21.

get to keep that money. It is being redistributed

:37:22.:37:24.

to the rest of the country to those councils and other parts

:37:25.:37:27.

of the country where business rates Those business rates

:37:28.:37:30.

have been particularly The Chancellor have announced

:37:31.:37:32.

a ?72.5 million for London businesses that will

:37:33.:37:36.

be hit the hardest. The Chancellor appeared to listen

:37:37.:37:38.

a bit, but his announcement My worry is small businesses

:37:39.:37:40.

in London who work their socks Nowadays, London contributes 30%

:37:41.:37:45.

of the country's tax revenue. Up from 25%, ten years

:37:46.:37:49.

ago, according to the With the rest of the country

:37:50.:37:51.

more and more dependent on money from the capital,

:37:52.:37:57.

how do you square that with greater Follow where the money goes,

:37:58.:38:00.

is the important thing. I must confess, probably like Meg,

:38:01.:38:15.

I listened two or three times, to exactly what was

:38:16.:38:23.

said, when I looked... There was only one line

:38:24.:38:25.

in the actual speech. When you look at this

:38:26.:38:27.

memorandum of understanding, But it's not been billed

:38:28.:38:29.

as the final answer or the And presumably it is

:38:30.:38:33.

new business rates beyond 2019, it's not necessarily

:38:34.:38:36.

just the existing pile. That is happening nationally

:38:37.:38:38.

and everywhere anyway. It is although London is a very

:38:39.:38:41.

successful commercial capital. There are two slight

:38:42.:38:46.

points I would make. One, I have a slight concern

:38:47.:38:48.

on things like transport structure, One, I have a slight

:38:49.:38:53.

concern on things like there isn't a great relationship

:38:54.:38:55.

between the secretary of state and They will have to bang their heads

:38:56.:38:59.

together to make it work for London. We can't have too much

:39:00.:39:03.

of the positioning that's been On both sides.

:39:04.:39:06.

Fault on both sides? There's been positioning

:39:07.:39:08.

going on on both sides but I won't put the blame one way or the other,

:39:09.:39:11.

but they need to have a positive This isn't going to work,

:39:12.:39:15.

I won't be caught down that But that is an obstacle, anyway?

:39:16.:39:19.

I think it is an obstacle. The fact that nothing was said

:39:20.:39:23.

about Crossrail 2 makes me think that this is the first area

:39:24.:39:26.

where I think we're going to have But probably, I think central

:39:27.:39:29.

government are going to say to London, right,

:39:30.:39:32.

you had Crossrail 1, you've had the Olympics, there is a demand for much

:39:33.:39:35.

of the rest of the UK that if you're going to have Crossrail 2, it's

:39:36.:39:38.

going to have to be brought out of going to have Crossrail 2, it's

:39:39.:39:42.

going to have to be bought out of Almost completely self-financed

:39:43.:39:45.

probably, isn't it? To be fair, that is doable

:39:46.:39:48.

given the potentially very large increase in rateable

:39:49.:39:50.

value that will take place But that probably is the sign,

:39:51.:39:52.

having had a bit of seedcorn money for Crossrail 2,

:39:53.:39:57.

ultimately it will be a London Again, very little detail

:39:58.:39:59.

but the suggestion in that memo potentially developers buying land

:40:00.:40:08.

or having land quite near a potential route of Crossrail

:40:09.:40:11.

2 would be paying on the increase To be honest, that is a model that

:40:12.:40:14.

we've talked about with the Jubilee line extension, everything else,

:40:15.:40:19.

saying you have this windfall And I think probably we now need

:40:20.:40:21.

to look for the 2020s at 2030s to try and capture some of that

:40:22.:40:28.

value to make sure that these Like Mark, I'm concerned

:40:29.:40:32.

about whether the money We look at devolution

:40:33.:40:36.

on my committee quite a lot and we are concerned about how

:40:37.:40:39.

we will be able to follow whether the tax pound from central

:40:40.:40:42.

government going down to London Trying to establish,

:40:43.:40:45.

what did you think was the promise, A couple of key things,

:40:46.:40:49.

like taking some control of some of the issues around

:40:50.:40:56.

criminal justice, which could be a really good win and

:40:57.:41:00.

further education. It's only really good if the money

:41:01.:41:01.

actually follows it. One thing we haven't

:41:02.:41:04.

already bottomed out, but I don't think

:41:05.:41:05.

is likely to happen, but I'm hopeful, I'm still pushing

:41:06.:41:08.

for, is some of the central government-owned assets

:41:09.:41:11.

that belong to London. Mike NHS PropCo, the property

:41:12.:41:12.

company that owns a lot of NHS assets like St Leonards in my

:41:13.:41:15.

constituency, they got taken into Whitehall rather than

:41:16.:41:18.

being local resources. And I've said to the mayor,

:41:19.:41:20.

we need to try to get these Hopefully, in negotiations

:41:21.:41:23.

he will be pushing for that, because that's a real value asset

:41:24.:41:26.

for housing and basically on London's books, perhaps

:41:27.:41:29.

you can borrow against. But you know some of the arguments

:41:30.:41:31.

about wanting to make some progress in retaining,

:41:32.:41:34.

having the right to raise taxes Whether its stamp duty,

:41:35.:41:36.

looking at council tax again No, and the business rates

:41:37.:41:39.

is a very hot potato. In my constituency and across

:41:40.:41:43.

London, we are seeing huge hikes, But it's very difficult for local

:41:44.:41:46.

government and the mayor, you can't just stop that now,

:41:47.:41:49.

because that's built And that's one of the challenges.

:41:50.:41:52.

How we will face that. I think we might see some innovative

:41:53.:41:55.

solutions from London and other devolved areas on business rates

:41:56.:41:58.

as time goes on, but not enough Isn't the key thing,

:41:59.:42:01.

and it is your patch, Mark Field, isn't the key area,

:42:02.:42:04.

areas like Westminster and Camden generate a huge

:42:05.:42:07.

amount of business rates. Of course, they redistribute under

:42:08.:42:09.

a formula, a model, now. On the understanding

:42:10.:42:13.

of what the mayor and the borrowers On the understanding

:42:14.:42:18.

of what the mayor and the boroughs are looking for is when all business

:42:19.:42:20.

rates are devolved and councils raise their own and keep them

:42:21.:42:23.

and City Hall does as well, that City Hall are going to be able

:42:24.:42:27.

to insist that the money raised by Camden and Westminster doesn't go

:42:28.:42:30.

out of London. That it stays within London, is that

:42:31.:42:32.

doable and would you support that? I do accept there are benefits of

:42:33.:42:36.

central London. It is a fantastic global

:42:37.:42:40.

tourist attraction as well. The idea that the Borough

:42:41.:42:42.

of Westminster or the City of London should retain all of its money,

:42:43.:42:45.

that's never been But just to distribute to other

:42:46.:42:47.

parts of London but not subsidise Although, again, I think

:42:48.:42:53.

we're looking at pretty Listen, I can see it

:42:54.:42:58.

from the Treasury's point of view. They look upon London

:42:59.:43:02.

as being an exceptional place. As I say, this is going to be

:43:03.:43:04.

a work in progress. Clearly, I think it's welcome

:43:05.:43:07.

that we had a devolutionary I think the detail will

:43:08.:43:09.

be have to be worked And we will have to have you both

:43:10.:43:14.

back to resume this conversation. Reports of anti-Semitic incidents

:43:15.:43:22.

at universities have doubled over the last year according

:43:23.:43:25.

to the Community Security Trust, A number of concerns were raised

:43:26.:43:28.

just recently after a week of anti-Israeli student

:43:29.:43:32.

activism on campuses. It's proving a difficult area

:43:33.:43:33.

for universities to manage. When does a healthy campus debate

:43:34.:43:35.

turn into something more serious? At University College London,

:43:36.:43:44.

they're wrestling with this issue as the contentious

:43:45.:43:46.

Israel Apartheid Week draws to a close here and at dozens

:43:47.:43:49.

of other academic institutions. We expect them to have robust

:43:50.:43:54.

policies and procedures in place to comply with the law,

:43:55.:43:57.

to investigate and swiftly address hate crime, including any

:43:58.:44:00.

anti-Semitic incidents Back in October, things got

:44:01.:44:01.

really out of hand, here. The university's Friends of Israel

:44:02.:44:08.

group organised a talk from a former Israeli soldier but didn't follow

:44:09.:44:11.

the correct procedures. The university rejected their

:44:12.:44:13.

application, but changed their mind at the last minute on appeal causing

:44:14.:44:15.

Palestinian supporters to accuse the university of double standards

:44:16.:44:18.

and to organise a protest. But there were no arrests and no

:44:19.:44:24.

reports of serious violence. However, UCL's official report

:44:25.:44:32.

into the event found that: I can make it very clear that in my

:44:33.:44:57.

society and the pro-Palestinian activism that I'm involved in,

:44:58.:45:04.

I've never, not even once, seen anything that is anti-Semitic

:45:05.:45:06.

or anything that is, However, if there was anything said,

:45:07.:45:08.

many of us would immediately It is not something that we tolerate

:45:09.:45:16.

in our movement because it Yahya believes that he and his

:45:17.:45:19.

society on the right Fiercely critical of Israel,

:45:20.:45:27.

but crucially not anti-Semitic. But these are some of the things

:45:28.:45:33.

he's tweeted in the past, admittedly, some of the them

:45:34.:45:35.

he was only 16. Calls on Israel to give

:45:36.:45:38.

up its Nazism and Zionists He didn't want to talk about them

:45:39.:45:42.

on camera, but insists And it really must be stopped,

:45:43.:45:48.

otherwise we will be releasing into the future a generation

:45:49.:46:02.

of students who have been infected by this,

:46:03.:46:04.

who will carry on believing that hate speech is

:46:05.:46:07.

acceptable in society. It is really urgent

:46:08.:46:08.

that something be done. Anti-Semitism has been

:46:09.:46:16.

in the spotlight amid a reported 30% year-on-year increase in incidents

:46:17.:46:19.

nationally and a doubling of incidents involving

:46:20.:46:21.

students or academics. This woman says she and her

:46:22.:46:22.

friend were targeted Two guys came to us and they tried

:46:23.:46:24.

to do something to my friend's phone so I stepped in,

:46:25.:46:29.

in the middle between them. The same guy, he went around me,

:46:30.:46:34.

he took my Israel flag from my bag. And he, just, like, took it

:46:35.:46:37.

out and my friend said, "How dare you take

:46:38.:46:42.

something from her bag?" They started to walk

:46:43.:46:52.

against each other and then Both SOAS and the Metropolitan

:46:53.:46:57.

Police say they're What's clear is that the problem

:46:58.:47:00.

with anti-Semitism What's less clear is

:47:01.:47:03.

what the authorities can Joining us now is Baroness Amos,

:47:04.:47:05.

director of the School of Oriental and African Studies,

:47:06.:47:17.

and Professor Geraint Rees, Dean of Life Sciences

:47:18.:47:19.

at University College London. Professor Rees, you wrote

:47:20.:47:21.

the report we saw a copy I think it makes recommendations

:47:22.:47:26.

potentially for disciplinary action It makes a number of recommendations

:47:27.:47:30.

and I am delighted the University has accepted all of those

:47:31.:47:43.

and is moving forward You mentioned that my investigation

:47:44.:47:45.

found there was evidence to suggest that students may have committed

:47:46.:47:48.

an offence against the code of conduct and so disciplinary

:47:49.:47:51.

processes are under way to determine whether or not that's correct

:47:52.:47:53.

and what action will be taken. But I think importantly

:47:54.:47:56.

there are other areas we also looked at, where we looked

:47:57.:47:58.

at strengthening our code of practice on freedom of speech,

:47:59.:48:01.

at reviewing our security protocols, and also, importantly,

:48:02.:48:03.

thinking about how proactively we can bring communities together

:48:04.:48:05.

through the appointment of an interfaith champion

:48:06.:48:08.

in the senior management and an interfaith forum

:48:09.:48:12.

to address these issues. Complex circumstances, obviously,

:48:13.:48:16.

because there are issues about whether the meeting should

:48:17.:48:18.

have taken place to begin with and how there had been

:48:19.:48:20.

an appeal and it finally happened, When you say what might have

:48:21.:48:23.

breached the code of conduct. Over anti-Semitism explicitly,

:48:24.:48:29.

or issues of disorder, Our students code of conduct talks

:48:30.:48:33.

about how to for example protect freedom of speech,

:48:34.:48:39.

which we are committed to, but in an atmosphere of tolerance

:48:40.:48:42.

and trust and mutual respect it, and so there are some areas

:48:43.:48:44.

in which behaviours of some of the students appeared

:48:45.:48:47.

to have breached those. Are you saying that they may

:48:48.:48:49.

have been anti-Semitic Our students code of conduct talks

:48:50.:49:03.

about how to for example but in an atmosphere of tolerance

:49:04.:49:06.

and trust and mutual respect it, and so there are some areas

:49:07.:49:09.

in which behaviours of some of the students appeared

:49:10.:49:11.

to have breached those. Are you saying that they may

:49:12.:49:13.

have been anti-Semitic Well, the anti-Semitism comments

:49:14.:49:16.

in the report referred to chance and in fact,

:49:17.:49:19.

as the report makes clear, or the investigation makes

:49:20.:49:22.

clear, some of the issues I was about to talk about that led

:49:23.:49:24.

to the students being referred for this are to do

:49:25.:49:27.

with the interfering A specific example is some

:49:28.:49:29.

of the students tried to, or succeeded, in entering the room

:49:30.:49:32.

where the Speaker was and trying That would clearly be a breach

:49:33.:49:35.

of our code of practice on freedom of speech and merits consideration

:49:36.:49:40.

for disciplinary action. We can see the difficulties

:49:41.:49:41.

from the incident again. What happens in terms of the mood

:49:42.:49:44.

on campus after something like this? Is it very limited, do many

:49:45.:49:47.

people know about it? Is the pressure on you and

:49:48.:49:49.

the University to take action? The mood on campus clearly response

:49:50.:49:52.

to an incident like that. Police were called and attended

:49:53.:49:54.

and a large number of individuals on and off campus

:49:55.:49:58.

made representations afterwards. That does not of course directly

:49:59.:50:00.

influence our need to take action, because we always need

:50:01.:50:03.

to be vigilant. You must never be

:50:04.:50:05.

complacent in these areas. And so the investigation took place

:50:06.:50:07.

in a very structured way that saw evidence and input from a large

:50:08.:50:10.

number of people, both The female student we saw

:50:11.:50:12.

towards the end of that piece What's happening there?

:50:13.:50:16.

We are investigating that incident. Of course, for me, the first

:50:17.:50:22.

priority always is the duty of care We have students from over 130

:50:23.:50:26.

countries across the world, and protecting that diversity

:50:27.:50:38.

and ensuring inclusivity and building a culture of respect

:50:39.:50:41.

and tolerance is absolutely at the heart of who we are

:50:42.:50:44.

and what we're about. At the same time,

:50:45.:50:48.

we are a university. We promote dialogue,

:50:49.:50:51.

there is robust discussion. We are a university that

:50:52.:50:56.

specialises in Asia, So there are lots of political

:50:57.:50:58.

dimensions that frame some And how difficult is it

:50:59.:51:05.

to police that boundary? We don't want to get

:51:06.:51:13.

into definitions too much about anti-Semitism,

:51:14.:51:15.

but that is an issue that is very difficult for you, is it?

:51:16.:51:19.

Well, we have a very clear policy. It is called Respect at Soas,

:51:20.:51:22.

which takes as its starting point the Equality Act,

:51:23.:51:24.

which, within that Equality Act, sets out a number of what are called

:51:25.:51:30.

protected characteristics, And our Respect at Soas policy

:51:31.:51:33.

talks about the fact that harassment is something

:51:34.:51:38.

that we take very seriously. You know that some people

:51:39.:51:45.

are concerned that you are not adopting whatever this international

:51:46.:51:47.

definition... You know, that the government,

:51:48.:51:49.

Joe Johnson, the universities minister, is saying -

:51:50.:51:52.

rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism

:51:53.:52:09.

are directed towards individuals and or their

:52:10.:52:11.

property or towards Jewish Is that where you have a problem,

:52:12.:52:13.

that some people will say No, no, we don't think

:52:14.:52:17.

that our responsibility as a university is to define

:52:18.:52:21.

anti-Semitism or indeed to define Islamophobia,

:52:22.:52:23.

or any other of the issues that are so widely discussed

:52:24.:52:25.

in our society. We see our responsibility

:52:26.:52:27.

as ensuring that we are remote We see our responsibility

:52:28.:52:32.

as ensuring that we promote I consulted with our centre

:52:33.:52:34.

for Jewish studies on this, who basically said that

:52:35.:52:41.

this definition is a And thus you don't want

:52:42.:52:43.

to particularly get involved... There are some who lecture

:52:44.:52:47.

in anti-Semitism who think Some of those students who may have

:52:48.:52:50.

said to our reporter, maybe felt that Soas wasn't doing

:52:51.:52:57.

quite enough yet, or perhaps... I know you cannot talk

:52:58.:52:59.

about that specific incident, but it is one of two

:53:00.:53:01.

or three you've had. It is important for me

:53:02.:53:04.

and it is important that the whole Soas community that everyone feels

:53:05.:53:10.

comfortable at Soas. One of the things I have

:53:11.:53:12.

agreed with the Union of Jewish Students but also

:53:13.:53:19.

with our Soas Jewish Society is that we will review our procedures,

:53:20.:53:23.

but also do a lot more signposting, so that people who feel

:53:24.:53:27.

that there is a concern, that they know where to go.

:53:28.:53:30.

Thank you. Observations briefly from both

:53:31.:53:33.

of you, what do you think? It is important to have

:53:34.:53:36.

robust discussion. If we can't do that on our campuses,

:53:37.:53:39.

there is a real problem. But it is difficult,

:53:40.:53:42.

where there is hate speech or intimidation, there needs

:53:43.:53:45.

to be some action. I don't envy the academics

:53:46.:53:48.

who are having to make the decision about exactly where that

:53:49.:53:51.

line is drawn. But I think we need to have a place

:53:52.:53:54.

for discussion and I think the worst thing is when you go into a meeting

:53:55.:53:58.

and you feel uncomfortable, and you That really is, I think,

:53:59.:54:01.

one of the main... Do you accept, do you think more

:54:02.:54:04.

is happening, or is it just There is and should be

:54:05.:54:07.

an absolute right to free speech and I'm afraid,

:54:08.:54:14.

I think, too many of our universities, there is a little bit

:54:15.:54:16.

too much political correctness and essentially they have a very

:54:17.:54:21.

partisan, a left-wing partisan view, particularly on the right

:54:22.:54:23.

of Israel to exist. Therefore they are a little

:54:24.:54:25.

bit more easy-going about anti-Semitism than they would

:54:26.:54:27.

be about anti-homophobic... I will allow you two

:54:28.:54:29.

a very brief response. Soas is a university

:54:30.:54:33.

that has had the first We have robust debate on these

:54:34.:54:39.

issues all the time and it's very Of course it makes people

:54:40.:54:47.

feel uncomfortable. But we are not going

:54:48.:54:53.

to allow racism, What we have to do is make sure

:54:54.:54:56.

we have the policies in place that Professor Rees, a final thought

:54:57.:55:07.

from your point of view. You were at the front

:55:08.:55:11.

line and looked at that Our commitment to freedom of speech

:55:12.:55:14.

applies to all of our We have the Jewish neighbourhood

:55:15.:55:18.

watch, they tell me that incidents are on the increase

:55:19.:55:26.

and they are quite distressing. An 11-year-old boy with his skull

:55:27.:55:28.

cap removed in the street. And we have got to

:55:29.:55:31.

stand up against that. We can't see what happened post,

:55:32.:55:33.

for example, the referendum. In that period, immediately

:55:34.:55:38.

after the referendum, a lot of my students,

:55:39.:55:41.

not just my Jewish students, my Muslim students and others,

:55:42.:55:43.

were all extremely concerned about what was happening,

:55:44.:55:47.

not on the Soas campus, Rather than interrupt this,

:55:48.:55:50.

we are not going to do our normal Carry this on, though,

:55:51.:55:57.

she has rejected your accusation. My biggest concern is that

:55:58.:56:01.

I think if rent a mob turns up in big numbers,

:56:02.:56:04.

there is a great fear, understandably, I am not saying

:56:05.:56:09.

it is an easy situation universities They will say better

:56:10.:56:12.

that we cancel this speaker, I think that again shows a level

:56:13.:56:15.

in which there is intimidation that can go on and I feel

:56:16.:56:24.

there are certain groups, some on the left of British politics,

:56:25.:56:26.

who are able to utilise the muscle and ensure there isn't

:56:27.:56:30.

an absolute commitment from too many of our universities to free

:56:31.:56:33.

speech at all costs. It would be really helpful

:56:34.:56:36.

if you made that case to government. Because one of the constraints that

:56:37.:56:42.

universities are under in relation to the Prevent legislation is a huge

:56:43.:56:47.

pressure to cancel events. Because they might

:56:48.:56:50.

become problematic. I'm afraid we are

:56:51.:56:55.

running out of time. Apologies to those of you who loved

:56:56.:56:59.

that feature, 60 Seconds. To all of you, thanks

:57:00.:57:02.

very much indeed. Now the government plans for new

:57:03.:57:05.

grammar schools. The Education Secretary

:57:06.:57:20.

Justine Greening was speaking to a conference

:57:21.:57:22.

of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite

:57:23.:57:24.

bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't

:57:25.:57:26.

allowed into the speech, but this was captured

:57:27.:57:33.

on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually

:57:34.:57:37.

for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,

:57:38.:57:40.

that they have, they really do help them close

:57:41.:57:44.

the attainment gap. And at the same time

:57:45.:57:47.

we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice

:57:48.:57:49.

for their children and that those schools are often

:57:50.:57:56.

very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage

:57:57.:58:10.

for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers

:58:11.:58:15.

conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the

:58:16.:58:19.

problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar

:58:20.:58:25.

schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up

:58:26.:58:29.

in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying

:58:30.:58:34.

they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative

:58:35.:58:36.

formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what

:58:37.:58:41.

we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11

:58:42.:58:46.

plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the

:58:47.:58:50.

clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand

:58:51.:58:55.

scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade

:58:56.:58:58.

ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening

:58:59.:59:03.

is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,

:59:04.:59:07.

the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more

:59:08.:59:12.

contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too

:59:13.:59:16.

busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of

:59:17.:59:20.

negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.

:59:21.:59:26.

I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of

:59:27.:59:29.

contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock

:59:30.:59:34.

because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a

:59:35.:59:41.

supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They

:59:42.:59:48.

need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar

:59:49.:59:52.

area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based

:59:53.:59:58.

on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on

:59:59.:00:01.

sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other

:00:02.:00:07.

policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not

:00:08.:00:10.

sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out

:00:11.:00:15.

of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we

:00:16.:00:20.

should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,

:00:21.:00:24.

this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children

:00:25.:00:27.

to get education at the highest level, education for academically

:00:28.:00:33.

bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa

:00:34.:00:37.

May administration that marks a government different from David

:00:38.:00:41.

Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is

:00:42.:00:43.

pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address

:00:44.:00:52.

concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and

:00:53.:00:56.

tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will

:00:57.:01:00.

probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form

:01:01.:01:04.

it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature

:01:05.:01:07.

policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first

:01:08.:01:10.

announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed

:01:11.:01:15.

and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been

:01:16.:01:20.

qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I

:01:21.:01:25.

disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you

:01:26.:01:29.

don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do

:01:30.:01:33.

that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a

:01:34.:01:37.

good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes

:01:38.:01:42.

very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --

:01:43.:01:45.

I have been. Now, you may remember this time last

:01:46.:01:47.

week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US

:01:48.:01:50.

President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,

:01:51.:01:52.

that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking

:01:53.:01:54.

that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting

:01:55.:01:57.

President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",

:01:58.:02:02.

and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been

:02:03.:02:11.

pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have

:02:12.:02:15.

initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative

:02:16.:02:21.

MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been

:02:22.:02:23.

granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's

:02:24.:02:27.

campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins

:02:28.:02:34.

us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early

:02:35.:02:46.

November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor

:02:47.:02:50.

communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.

:02:51.:02:55.

It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the

:02:56.:02:57.

existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one

:02:58.:03:07.

takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your

:03:08.:03:10.

characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report

:03:11.:03:14.

that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump

:03:15.:03:19.

tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a

:03:20.:03:23.

warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian

:03:24.:03:27.

banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context

:03:28.:03:34.

of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental

:03:35.:03:37.

collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to

:03:38.:03:43.

intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I

:03:44.:03:48.

just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now

:03:49.:03:52.

believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a

:03:53.:03:57.

wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out

:03:58.:04:01.

evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else

:04:02.:04:05.

reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have

:04:06.:04:08.

committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.

:04:09.:04:13.

Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the

:04:14.:04:19.

question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant

:04:20.:04:23.

exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would

:04:24.:04:27.

be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America

:04:28.:04:32.

they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That

:04:33.:04:36.

is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are

:04:37.:04:40.

looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases

:04:41.:04:43.

brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated

:04:44.:04:49.

this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul

:04:50.:04:54.

Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources

:04:55.:04:57.

validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you

:04:58.:05:01.

would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in

:05:02.:05:05.

ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump

:05:06.:05:09.

campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians

:05:10.:05:13.

during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should

:05:14.:05:16.

be impeached. What evidence did you have?

:05:17.:05:22.

That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him

:05:23.:05:28.

saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the

:05:29.:05:30.

Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,

:05:31.:05:35.

actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on

:05:36.:05:39.

Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media

:05:40.:05:43.

manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it

:05:44.:05:48.

happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in

:05:49.:05:52.

April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but

:05:53.:05:56.

the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an

:05:57.:06:00.

enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier

:06:01.:06:03.

which was included in an official report of the US intelligence

:06:04.:06:11.

committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard

:06:12.:06:14.

evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is

:06:15.:06:19.

doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence

:06:20.:06:22.

about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed

:06:23.:06:27.

that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way

:06:28.:06:34.

for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I

:06:35.:06:38.

haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish

:06:39.:06:43.

community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild

:06:44.:06:48.

conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times

:06:49.:06:51.

people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in

:06:52.:06:56.

twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew

:06:57.:06:59.

Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You

:07:00.:07:06.

said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you

:07:07.:07:10.

believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I

:07:11.:07:16.

know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered

:07:17.:07:19.

Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are

:07:20.:07:25.

fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I

:07:26.:07:29.

may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,

:07:30.:07:38.

as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They

:07:39.:07:45.

believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.

:07:46.:07:50.

Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it

:07:51.:07:54.

is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should

:07:55.:07:58.

believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am

:07:59.:08:04.

making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.

:08:05.:08:08.

Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be

:08:09.:08:13.

a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do

:08:14.:08:20.

you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that

:08:21.:08:23.

President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at

:08:24.:08:29.

two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the

:08:30.:08:34.

same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times

:08:35.:08:37.

here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where

:08:38.:08:47.

you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am

:08:48.:08:50.

describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your

:08:51.:08:57.

viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with

:08:58.:09:00.

unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and

:09:01.:09:03.

absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have

:09:04.:09:07.

ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very

:09:08.:09:11.

hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That

:09:12.:09:17.

is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up

:09:18.:09:22.

early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary

:09:23.:09:26.

superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't

:09:27.:09:30.

think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on

:09:31.:09:34.

that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own

:09:35.:09:39.

minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop

:09:40.:09:40.

the killing! Will it get through at the

:09:41.:09:48.

government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way

:09:49.:09:51.

that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and

:09:52.:09:56.

forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The

:09:57.:10:00.

fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't

:10:01.:10:03.

like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,

:10:04.:10:07.

they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on

:10:08.:10:09.

the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The

:10:10.:10:15.

negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation

:10:16.:10:19.

process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch

:10:20.:10:23.

this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the

:10:24.:10:28.

Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it

:10:29.:10:32.

was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom

:10:33.:10:37.

on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question

:10:38.:10:41.

-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately

:10:42.:10:47.

organising. I want us to get on with the deals.

:10:48.:10:50.

Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going

:10:51.:10:57.

to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand

:10:58.:11:00.

for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net

:11:01.:11:06.

costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will

:11:07.:11:13.

be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the

:11:14.:11:17.

EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal

:11:18.:11:23.

rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite

:11:24.:11:26.

quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they

:11:27.:11:30.

will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree

:11:31.:11:33.

the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.

:11:34.:11:38.

David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the

:11:39.:11:42.

size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good

:11:43.:11:47.

the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights

:11:48.:11:51.

is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it

:11:52.:11:55.

is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.

:11:56.:11:59.

Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly

:12:00.:12:02.

quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all

:12:03.:12:06.

about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the

:12:07.:12:09.

governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so

:12:10.:12:12.

unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of

:12:13.:12:16.

the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while

:12:17.:12:22.

public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic

:12:23.:12:26.

direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer

:12:27.:12:29.

they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public

:12:30.:12:33.

resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,

:12:34.:12:37.

the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and

:12:38.:12:41.

think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with

:12:42.:12:45.

the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals

:12:46.:12:49.

he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed

:12:50.:12:54.

individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.

:12:55.:12:58.

That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being

:12:59.:13:03.

done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect

:13:04.:13:08.

your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds

:13:09.:13:12.

are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the

:13:13.:13:18.

House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early

:13:19.:13:22.

election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!

:13:23.:13:27.

We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like

:13:28.:13:30.

being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same

:13:31.:13:32.

place. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:33.:13:35.

it's the Sunday Politics. They're calling it an

:13:36.:14:39.

entertainment extravaganza audience fun and frolics

:14:40.:14:46.

and outrageous shenanigans. And I don't even know what

:14:47.:14:51.

those HONK words mean.

:14:52.:14:55.

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the Brexit bill with UKIP's Nigel Farage and Conservative MP Anna Soubry. Guests include Matthew Taylor of the Independent Review of Employment Practices, journalist Louise Mensch, Meg Hillier MP and Mark Field MP. On the political panel are Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.