Browse content similar to 12/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched, | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage. | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
But how should we tax those who work for themselves? | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling. | :01:05. | :01:15. | |
In London this week, a rise in anti-Semitic | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
Universities urged to take a tougher approach. | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists | :01:21. | :01:32. | |
who definitely don't deserve a tax break. | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer | :01:37. | :01:37. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial. | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous! | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50, | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates. | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
earlier this morning and he was asked what happens | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal | :02:08. | :02:18. | |
There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules. | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
The British people decided on June the 23rd last year | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
My job, and the job of the government, is to make | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible. | :02:39. | :02:48. | |
There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
government means by a meaningful vote. | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
think it would be politically impossible for the government to | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
politics will be completely different by then. I take David | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed. | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
the process but there won't be a third option to send the government | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing. | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote, | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another, | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here, | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said, | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
government. You've got to assume that unless something massively | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country... | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any. | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week. | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
to vote against their government on two key issues. | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
partners within days, but there may be some | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too. | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
Cast your mind back to the beginning of month. | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
the rights of EU citizens already in the UK. | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised. | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
But remember those numbers, they're important. | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
When the government was criticised for reeling back | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
from when and what it would offer a vote on. | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms | :08:24. | :08:31. | |
of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them. | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
But, as ever, politics is a numbers game. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Theresa May has a working majority of 17. | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
On Brexit, though, it's probably higher. | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
At least six Labour MPs generally vote with | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
If all Conservatives vote with the government as well, | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May? | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion? | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
This building is a really important building. | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
It's symbolic of a huge amount of history. | :09:32. | :09:32. | |
And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would, | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside. | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
It was already said about David Jones. | :09:50. | :09:51. | |
It's slightly unravelled a little bit during | :09:52. | :09:53. | |
I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
One said the situation was sad and depressing. | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached. | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
But that its position was unlikely to change. | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
round would look silly if they did, this time. | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail, | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time. | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned. | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons. | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
that this is the last chance to have a say on this. | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it. | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended, | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
have already indicated they won't block it again. | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
would be free to trigger Article 50 within days. | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
Her own deadline was the end of this month. | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early. | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry. | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
She's previously voted against the government on the question | :11:35. | :11:36. | |
of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal. | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
means through your elected representatives, the people of this | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does... | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to | :13:52. | :13:53. | |
what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be. | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal, | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options. | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations, | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is | :15:26. | :15:36. | |
asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill. | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
I will either vote against my government, which I do not do | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map. | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving | :17:47. | :17:58. | |
the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
different from your own? I am delighted there are people now | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30 | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution. | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real. | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is, | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60 | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date. | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather | :26:36. | :26:36. | |
than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes | :26:42. | :26:43. | |
affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase | :26:50. | :26:51. | |
in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see | :26:52. | :26:53. | |
as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay | :26:54. | :27:02. | |
more National Insurance The controversy centres | :27:03. | :27:04. | |
on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy, | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip | :27:35. | :27:35. | |
Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May | :27:42. | :27:43. | |
said the government One of the first things I did | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
and protections that were available to self-employed workers | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
at the government paper when we produce it, showing | :28:00. | :28:01. | |
all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing | :28:14. | :28:15. | |
a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided | :28:16. | :28:29. | |
the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
decent and all jobs give people scope for development and | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We | :29:01. | :29:09. | |
will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive | :29:10. | :29:11. | |
particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance -- | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well. | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When | :30:46. | :30:55. | |
people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
real historical basis for that big national insurance differential, | :31:00. | :31:01. | |
they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers, | :31:10. | :31:10. | |
women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have | :31:11. | :31:19. | |
the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they | :31:56. | :31:57. | |
don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things. | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. -- | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky. | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for | :32:44. | :32:52. | |
the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour. | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business | :33:34. | :33:35. | |
models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us? | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
Yes. We say goodbye to viewers | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes, | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
of Donald Trump's allegation that he had been put | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
under surveillance by First though, the Sunday | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
Politics where you are. Is anti-Semitism on the rise among | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
students and academics? We're looking at what's | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
happening on campus and asking whether universities | :34:21. | :34:22. | |
are taking a tough enough approach. Here with me throughout: | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
Mark Field, Conservative MP for the Cities of | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
London and Westminster. And Meg Hillier, Labour MP | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
for Hackney South and Shoreditch, and the chair of the Public Accounts | :34:34. | :34:35. | |
Committee. Which we always say is very | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
influential, so we are very pleased A quick word to kick | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
off on the Budget. Your view on the row | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
over the self-employed. There was a row and clearly | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
we will look at this again. I personally felt that | :34:49. | :34:58. | |
the benefits of this, step towards a signification | :34:59. | :35:00. | |
of the tax process. One of the things I hope | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
Philip Hammond will put into place in the November budget | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
and indeed in budgets in future years is to try and get | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
a far simpler tax system. As Meg will confirm, | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
at this point at least, a more complicated tax system opens | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
the door to tax avoidance and we need to try to make sure we get | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
as much tax as possible. Lots of people in London | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
in this position. You will appreciate | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
that in your position. What's not to like, | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
in the long-term? To break a manifesto promise and not | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
realise it was coming was I represent a lot of | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
self-employed people To come out of the blue like | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
that is not really the way to do it. No, you can't just say | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
we will do one thing and say It's much more | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
complicated than that. If you're going to talk about | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
simplification of tax, that's a In fairness, it's | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
a slight grey area. To say it was a manifesto | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
promise breach, there was a grey area about it | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
but I accept it wasn't handled quite as skilfully | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
as it might have been. I think we will get it | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
right in a month's time. The promise was to make this a very | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
brief talking point and we've Let's look in more detail | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
at what was on offer for the capital Across Britain, local | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
areas will take control of their own economic destiny | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
and we will support them to do so. I can inform the House that I have | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
reached a deal with the Mayor At last, the announcement in this | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
week's budget of the much anticipated devolution | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
deal for London. That includes plans to pilot | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
a new model to fund the capital's infrastructure, to co-commission | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
criminal justice services with the government, | :36:32. | :36:33. | |
health care powers to be announced later this month and the retention | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
of all business rates by London. There's a commitment to piloting, | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
to trying out further steps towards what will be a full move | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
to London holding all its business And at that time, one would hope | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
London's local government would have greater freedom | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
in the use of resources and be less dependent on government grants | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
from that point onwards. According to research | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
by the Institution of Siscal Studies, that's not | :37:06. | :37:07. | |
necessarily what we'll be The valuation rate of London | :37:08. | :37:08. | |
businesses paying about ?800 million But London councils don't | :37:09. | :37:21. | |
get to keep that money. It is being redistributed | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
to the rest of the country to those councils and other parts | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
of the country where business rates Those business rates | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
have been particularly The Chancellor have announced | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
a ?72.5 million for London businesses that will | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
be hit the hardest. The Chancellor appeared to listen | :37:37. | :37:38. | |
a bit, but his announcement My worry is small businesses | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
in London who work their socks Nowadays, London contributes 30% | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
of the country's tax revenue. Up from 25%, ten years | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
ago, according to the With the rest of the country | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
more and more dependent on money from the capital, | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
how do you square that with greater Follow where the money goes, | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
is the important thing. I must confess, probably like Meg, | :38:01. | :38:15. | |
I listened two or three times, to exactly what was | :38:16. | :38:23. | |
said, when I looked... There was only one line | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
in the actual speech. When you look at this | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
memorandum of understanding, But it's not been billed | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
as the final answer or the And presumably it is | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
new business rates beyond 2019, it's not necessarily | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
just the existing pile. That is happening nationally | :38:37. | :38:38. | |
and everywhere anyway. It is although London is a very | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
successful commercial capital. There are two slight | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
points I would make. One, I have a slight concern | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
on things like transport structure, One, I have a slight | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
concern on things like there isn't a great relationship | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
between the secretary of state and They will have to bang their heads | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
together to make it work for London. We can't have too much | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
of the positioning that's been On both sides. | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
Fault on both sides? There's been positioning | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
going on on both sides but I won't put the blame one way or the other, | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
but they need to have a positive This isn't going to work, | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
I won't be caught down that But that is an obstacle, anyway? | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
I think it is an obstacle. The fact that nothing was said | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
about Crossrail 2 makes me think that this is the first area | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
where I think we're going to have But probably, I think central | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
government are going to say to London, right, | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
you had Crossrail 1, you've had the Olympics, there is a demand for much | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
of the rest of the UK that if you're going to have Crossrail 2, it's | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
going to have to be brought out of going to have Crossrail 2, it's | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
going to have to be bought out of Almost completely self-financed | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
probably, isn't it? To be fair, that is doable | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
given the potentially very large increase in rateable | :39:49. | :39:50. | |
value that will take place But that probably is the sign, | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
having had a bit of seedcorn money for Crossrail 2, | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
ultimately it will be a London Again, very little detail | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
but the suggestion in that memo potentially developers buying land | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
or having land quite near a potential route of Crossrail | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
2 would be paying on the increase To be honest, that is a model that | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
we've talked about with the Jubilee line extension, everything else, | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
saying you have this windfall And I think probably we now need | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
to look for the 2020s at 2030s to try and capture some of that | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
value to make sure that these Like Mark, I'm concerned | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
about whether the money We look at devolution | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
on my committee quite a lot and we are concerned about how | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
we will be able to follow whether the tax pound from central | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
government going down to London Trying to establish, | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
what did you think was the promise, A couple of key things, | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
like taking some control of some of the issues around | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
criminal justice, which could be a really good win and | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
further education. It's only really good if the money | :41:01. | :41:01. | |
actually follows it. One thing we haven't | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
already bottomed out, but I don't think | :41:05. | :41:05. | |
is likely to happen, but I'm hopeful, I'm still pushing | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
for, is some of the central government-owned assets | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
that belong to London. Mike NHS PropCo, the property | :41:12. | :41:12. | |
company that owns a lot of NHS assets like St Leonards in my | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
constituency, they got taken into Whitehall rather than | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
being local resources. And I've said to the mayor, | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
we need to try to get these Hopefully, in negotiations | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
he will be pushing for that, because that's a real value asset | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
for housing and basically on London's books, perhaps | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
you can borrow against. But you know some of the arguments | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
about wanting to make some progress in retaining, | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
having the right to raise taxes Whether its stamp duty, | :41:35. | :41:36. | |
looking at council tax again No, and the business rates | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
is a very hot potato. In my constituency and across | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
London, we are seeing huge hikes, But it's very difficult for local | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
government and the mayor, you can't just stop that now, | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
because that's built And that's one of the challenges. | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
How we will face that. I think we might see some innovative | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
solutions from London and other devolved areas on business rates | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
as time goes on, but not enough Isn't the key thing, | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
and it is your patch, Mark Field, isn't the key area, | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
areas like Westminster and Camden generate a huge | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
amount of business rates. Of course, they redistribute under | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
a formula, a model, now. On the understanding | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
of what the mayor and the borrowers On the understanding | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
of what the mayor and the boroughs are looking for is when all business | :42:19. | :42:20. | |
rates are devolved and councils raise their own and keep them | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
and City Hall does as well, that City Hall are going to be able | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
to insist that the money raised by Camden and Westminster doesn't go | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
out of London. That it stays within London, is that | :42:31. | :42:32. | |
doable and would you support that? I do accept there are benefits of | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
central London. It is a fantastic global | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
tourist attraction as well. The idea that the Borough | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
of Westminster or the City of London should retain all of its money, | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
that's never been But just to distribute to other | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
parts of London but not subsidise Although, again, I think | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
we're looking at pretty Listen, I can see it | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
from the Treasury's point of view. They look upon London | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
as being an exceptional place. As I say, this is going to be | :43:03. | :43:04. | |
a work in progress. Clearly, I think it's welcome | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
that we had a devolutionary I think the detail will | :43:08. | :43:09. | |
be have to be worked And we will have to have you both | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
back to resume this conversation. Reports of anti-Semitic incidents | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
at universities have doubled over the last year according | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
to the Community Security Trust, A number of concerns were raised | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
just recently after a week of anti-Israeli student | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
activism on campuses. It's proving a difficult area | :43:33. | :43:33. | |
for universities to manage. When does a healthy campus debate | :43:34. | :43:35. | |
turn into something more serious? At University College London, | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
they're wrestling with this issue as the contentious | :43:45. | :43:46. | |
Israel Apartheid Week draws to a close here and at dozens | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
of other academic institutions. We expect them to have robust | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
policies and procedures in place to comply with the law, | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
to investigate and swiftly address hate crime, including any | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
anti-Semitic incidents Back in October, things got | :44:01. | :44:01. | |
really out of hand, here. The university's Friends of Israel | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
group organised a talk from a former Israeli soldier but didn't follow | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
the correct procedures. The university rejected their | :44:12. | :44:13. | |
application, but changed their mind at the last minute on appeal causing | :44:14. | :44:15. | |
Palestinian supporters to accuse the university of double standards | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
and to organise a protest. But there were no arrests and no | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
reports of serious violence. However, UCL's official report | :44:25. | :44:32. | |
into the event found that: I can make it very clear that in my | :44:33. | :44:57. | |
society and the pro-Palestinian activism that I'm involved in, | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
I've never, not even once, seen anything that is anti-Semitic | :45:05. | :45:06. | |
or anything that is, However, if there was anything said, | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
many of us would immediately It is not something that we tolerate | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
in our movement because it Yahya believes that he and his | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
society on the right Fiercely critical of Israel, | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
but crucially not anti-Semitic. But these are some of the things | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
he's tweeted in the past, admittedly, some of the them | :45:34. | :45:35. | |
he was only 16. Calls on Israel to give | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
up its Nazism and Zionists He didn't want to talk about them | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
on camera, but insists And it really must be stopped, | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
otherwise we will be releasing into the future a generation | :45:49. | :46:02. | |
of students who have been infected by this, | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
who will carry on believing that hate speech is | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
acceptable in society. It is really urgent | :46:08. | :46:08. | |
that something be done. Anti-Semitism has been | :46:09. | :46:16. | |
in the spotlight amid a reported 30% year-on-year increase in incidents | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
nationally and a doubling of incidents involving | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
students or academics. This woman says she and her | :46:22. | :46:22. | |
friend were targeted Two guys came to us and they tried | :46:23. | :46:24. | |
to do something to my friend's phone so I stepped in, | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
in the middle between them. The same guy, he went around me, | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
he took my Israel flag from my bag. And he, just, like, took it | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
out and my friend said, "How dare you take | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
something from her bag?" They started to walk | :46:43. | :46:52. | |
against each other and then Both SOAS and the Metropolitan | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
Police say they're What's clear is that the problem | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
with anti-Semitism What's less clear is | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
what the authorities can Joining us now is Baroness Amos, | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
director of the School of Oriental and African Studies, | :47:06. | :47:17. | |
and Professor Geraint Rees, Dean of Life Sciences | :47:18. | :47:19. | |
at University College London. Professor Rees, you wrote | :47:20. | :47:21. | |
the report we saw a copy I think it makes recommendations | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
potentially for disciplinary action It makes a number of recommendations | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
and I am delighted the University has accepted all of those | :47:31. | :47:43. | |
and is moving forward You mentioned that my investigation | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
found there was evidence to suggest that students may have committed | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
an offence against the code of conduct and so disciplinary | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
processes are under way to determine whether or not that's correct | :47:52. | :47:53. | |
and what action will be taken. But I think importantly | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
there are other areas we also looked at, where we looked | :47:57. | :47:58. | |
at strengthening our code of practice on freedom of speech, | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
at reviewing our security protocols, and also, importantly, | :48:02. | :48:03. | |
thinking about how proactively we can bring communities together | :48:04. | :48:05. | |
through the appointment of an interfaith champion | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
in the senior management and an interfaith forum | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
to address these issues. Complex circumstances, obviously, | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
because there are issues about whether the meeting should | :48:17. | :48:18. | |
have taken place to begin with and how there had been | :48:19. | :48:20. | |
an appeal and it finally happened, When you say what might have | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
breached the code of conduct. Over anti-Semitism explicitly, | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
or issues of disorder, Our students code of conduct talks | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
about how to for example protect freedom of speech, | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
which we are committed to, but in an atmosphere of tolerance | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
and trust and mutual respect it, and so there are some areas | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
in which behaviours of some of the students appeared | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
to have breached those. Are you saying that they may | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
have been anti-Semitic Our students code of conduct talks | :48:50. | :49:03. | |
about how to for example but in an atmosphere of tolerance | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
and trust and mutual respect it, and so there are some areas | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
in which behaviours of some of the students appeared | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
to have breached those. Are you saying that they may | :49:12. | :49:13. | |
have been anti-Semitic Well, the anti-Semitism comments | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
in the report referred to chance and in fact, | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
as the report makes clear, or the investigation makes | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
clear, some of the issues I was about to talk about that led | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
to the students being referred for this are to do | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
with the interfering A specific example is some | :49:28. | :49:29. | |
of the students tried to, or succeeded, in entering the room | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
where the Speaker was and trying That would clearly be a breach | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
of our code of practice on freedom of speech and merits consideration | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
for disciplinary action. We can see the difficulties | :49:41. | :49:41. | |
from the incident again. What happens in terms of the mood | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
on campus after something like this? Is it very limited, do many | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
people know about it? Is the pressure on you and | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
the University to take action? The mood on campus clearly response | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
to an incident like that. Police were called and attended | :49:53. | :49:54. | |
and a large number of individuals on and off campus | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
made representations afterwards. That does not of course directly | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
influence our need to take action, because we always need | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
to be vigilant. You must never be | :50:04. | :50:05. | |
complacent in these areas. And so the investigation took place | :50:06. | :50:07. | |
in a very structured way that saw evidence and input from a large | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
number of people, both The female student we saw | :50:11. | :50:12. | |
towards the end of that piece What's happening there? | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
We are investigating that incident. Of course, for me, the first | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
priority always is the duty of care We have students from over 130 | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
countries across the world, and protecting that diversity | :50:27. | :50:38. | |
and ensuring inclusivity and building a culture of respect | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
and tolerance is absolutely at the heart of who we are | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
and what we're about. At the same time, | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
we are a university. We promote dialogue, | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
there is robust discussion. We are a university that | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
specialises in Asia, So there are lots of political | :50:57. | :50:58. | |
dimensions that frame some And how difficult is it | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
to police that boundary? We don't want to get | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
into definitions too much about anti-Semitism, | :51:14. | :51:15. | |
but that is an issue that is very difficult for you, is it? | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
Well, we have a very clear policy. It is called Respect at Soas, | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
which takes as its starting point the Equality Act, | :51:23. | :51:24. | |
which, within that Equality Act, sets out a number of what are called | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
protected characteristics, And our Respect at Soas policy | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
talks about the fact that harassment is something | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
that we take very seriously. You know that some people | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
are concerned that you are not adopting whatever this international | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
definition... You know, that the government, | :51:48. | :51:49. | |
Joe Johnson, the universities minister, is saying - | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism | :51:53. | :52:09. | |
are directed towards individuals and or their | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
property or towards Jewish Is that where you have a problem, | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
that some people will say No, no, we don't think | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
that our responsibility as a university is to define | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
anti-Semitism or indeed to define Islamophobia, | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
or any other of the issues that are so widely discussed | :52:24. | :52:25. | |
in our society. We see our responsibility | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
as ensuring that we are remote We see our responsibility | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
as ensuring that we promote I consulted with our centre | :52:33. | :52:34. | |
for Jewish studies on this, who basically said that | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
this definition is a And thus you don't want | :52:42. | :52:43. | |
to particularly get involved... There are some who lecture | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
in anti-Semitism who think Some of those students who may have | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
said to our reporter, maybe felt that Soas wasn't doing | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
quite enough yet, or perhaps... I know you cannot talk | :52:58. | :52:59. | |
about that specific incident, but it is one of two | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
or three you've had. It is important for me | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
and it is important that the whole Soas community that everyone feels | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
comfortable at Soas. One of the things I have | :53:11. | :53:12. | |
agreed with the Union of Jewish Students but also | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
with our Soas Jewish Society is that we will review our procedures, | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
but also do a lot more signposting, so that people who feel | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
that there is a concern, that they know where to go. | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
Thank you. Observations briefly from both | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
of you, what do you think? It is important to have | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
robust discussion. If we can't do that on our campuses, | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
there is a real problem. But it is difficult, | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
where there is hate speech or intimidation, there needs | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
to be some action. I don't envy the academics | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
who are having to make the decision about exactly where that | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
line is drawn. But I think we need to have a place | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
for discussion and I think the worst thing is when you go into a meeting | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
and you feel uncomfortable, and you That really is, I think, | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
one of the main... Do you accept, do you think more | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
is happening, or is it just There is and should be | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
an absolute right to free speech and I'm afraid, | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
I think, too many of our universities, there is a little bit | :54:15. | :54:16. | |
too much political correctness and essentially they have a very | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
partisan, a left-wing partisan view, particularly on the right | :54:22. | :54:23. | |
of Israel to exist. Therefore they are a little | :54:24. | :54:25. | |
bit more easy-going about anti-Semitism than they would | :54:26. | :54:27. | |
be about anti-homophobic... I will allow you two | :54:28. | :54:29. | |
a very brief response. Soas is a university | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
that has had the first We have robust debate on these | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
issues all the time and it's very Of course it makes people | :54:40. | :54:47. | |
feel uncomfortable. But we are not going | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
to allow racism, What we have to do is make sure | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
we have the policies in place that Professor Rees, a final thought | :54:57. | :55:07. | |
from your point of view. You were at the front | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
line and looked at that Our commitment to freedom of speech | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
applies to all of our We have the Jewish neighbourhood | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
watch, they tell me that incidents are on the increase | :55:19. | :55:26. | |
and they are quite distressing. An 11-year-old boy with his skull | :55:27. | :55:28. | |
cap removed in the street. And we have got to | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
stand up against that. We can't see what happened post, | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
for example, the referendum. In that period, immediately | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
after the referendum, a lot of my students, | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
not just my Jewish students, my Muslim students and others, | :55:42. | :55:43. | |
were all extremely concerned about what was happening, | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
not on the Soas campus, Rather than interrupt this, | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
we are not going to do our normal Carry this on, though, | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
she has rejected your accusation. My biggest concern is that | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
I think if rent a mob turns up in big numbers, | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
there is a great fear, understandably, I am not saying | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
it is an easy situation universities They will say better | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
that we cancel this speaker, I think that again shows a level | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
in which there is intimidation that can go on and I feel | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
there are certain groups, some on the left of British politics, | :56:25. | :56:26. | |
who are able to utilise the muscle and ensure there isn't | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
an absolute commitment from too many of our universities to free | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
speech at all costs. It would be really helpful | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
if you made that case to government. Because one of the constraints that | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
universities are under in relation to the Prevent legislation is a huge | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
pressure to cancel events. Because they might | :56:48. | :56:50. | |
become problematic. I'm afraid we are | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
running out of time. Apologies to those of you who loved | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
that feature, 60 Seconds. To all of you, thanks | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
very much indeed. Now the government plans for new | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
grammar schools. The Education Secretary | :57:06. | :57:20. | |
Justine Greening was speaking to a conference | :57:21. | :57:22. | |
of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite | :57:23. | :57:24. | |
bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't | :57:25. | :57:26. | |
allowed into the speech, but this was captured | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children, | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
that they have, they really do help them close | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
the attainment gap. And at the same time | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice | :57:48. | :57:49. | |
for their children and that those schools are often | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage | :57:57. | :58:10. | |
for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative | :58:35. | :58:36. | |
formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11 | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit, | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing. | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a | :59:35. | :59:41. | |
supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward, | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
to get education at the highest level, education for academically | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
May administration that marks a government different from David | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address | :00:44. | :00:52. | |
concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. -- | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
I have been. Now, you may remember this time last | :01:46. | :01:47. | |
week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course, | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low", | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been | :02:03. | :02:11. | |
pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early | :02:35. | :02:46. | |
November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks. | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one | :02:58. | :03:07. | |
takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account. | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
be impeached. What evidence did you have? | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is, | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
which was included in an official report of the US intelligence | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting, | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism. | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief. | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where | :08:38. | :08:47. | |
you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop | :09:40. | :09:40. | |
the killing! Will it get through at the | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday, | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on | :10:08. | :10:09. | |
the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
organising. I want us to get on with the deals. | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists. | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it, | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up. | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us! | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
place. Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. They're calling it an | :13:36. | :14:39. | |
entertainment extravaganza audience fun and frolics | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
and outrageous shenanigans. And I don't even know what | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
those HONK words mean. | :14:52. | :14:55. |