25/06/2017 Sunday Politics London

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas

in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not

every building that fails will be evacuated.

The government promises Britain will be a strong global

trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,

we'll ask the international trade minister how.

As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status

with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader

use his new appeal to strengthen his grip on the party?

In London, after the Grenfell Tower fire in Kensington and the series

of terror attacks - what can be done to restore

And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political

pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,

Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.

They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.

First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks

across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,

following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people

According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks

has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.

The government plans to examine up to

600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.

The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth

as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden

and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services

Camden has already evacuated residents from

650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such

as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before

When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity

and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national

system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as

muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is

striking how every single building they test seems to fail these

regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the

regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is

most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been

told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were

told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets

outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation

that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in

instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about

social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about

the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.

People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building

regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable

material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,

America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of

the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and

this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for

a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are

several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting

this stuff into housing associations, where the controls

have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is

build more homes and every government announces they are going

to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of

these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a

crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,

frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second

look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had

kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in

fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national

and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about

residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm

hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,

there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the

politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which

is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the

initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to

make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the

result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils

who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national

failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.

Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been

slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge

potential for this to snowball especially if we have other

buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in

the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word

austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his

targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't

take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.

Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver

a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global

trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,

David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get

a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure

from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just

the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,

French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,

you name it. The balance of trade basically

is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest

in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,

on all sides on trade. And I've been joined

by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are

five main national business organisations in Britain and all of

them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the

EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a

difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is

not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with

ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to

the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You

can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to

be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they

will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade

ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is

very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.

We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,

you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the

rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the

same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you

have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at

the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like

the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The

Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the

stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to

the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the

customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a

customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the

first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from

outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm

told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a

novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.

We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from

no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To

do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the

Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single

market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a

transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get

on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective

we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying

across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard

interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want

to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to

do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able

to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this

transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it

is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by

the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition

them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with

America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at

the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working

through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current

arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week

was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk

about the current trading relationship, how do we make things

better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs

work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start

thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,

can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We

can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during

the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what

we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue

between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU

will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.

Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with

trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there

is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and

as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,

what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed

country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no

tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we

give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the

EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,

despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but

the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place

with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all

the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we

are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,

since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I

have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also

called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do

you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to

harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that

people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.

What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make

an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will

the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to

work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the

immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK

economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of

reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the

priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs

of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say

meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more

important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to

the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital

error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer

workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,

and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a

general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or

keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a

businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of

business and the success of our economy that we can afford the

social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work

through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through

Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target

of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital

changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.

Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted

to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this

morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out

the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the

principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy

or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime

Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's

speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will

be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers

and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and

there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out

of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to

say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are

two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you

what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's

aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank

you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics

in the general election, increasing Labour's share

of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use

the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy

has been finding out. Enjoying superstar

status at Glastonbury. Since when did being

a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually

about everyday life. It's about all of us

and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want

for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,

playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer

of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election

glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting

in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader

now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead

in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader

for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world

is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann

MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,

is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling

in the Labour Party, and there are people on both

sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing

better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his

position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential

Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress

which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says

now the party is more In the general election,

the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot

forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign

pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull

together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,

staying up for the summer #. Before the election,

a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and

anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked

into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine

Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,

attack the party staff, change the party rules,

will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more

interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that

unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,

is led from the top. The way in which internal

hostilities would recommend The way in which internal

hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return

to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts

to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors

are going to fight If there are attempts to cross

a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,

again that would cause And if there are attempts to change

the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan

advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,

but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball

is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate

at conference, though, on what some are calling

the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower

the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have

been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate

to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference

is finely balanced on that. Because the elections

for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge

between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those

around the 9th of July And then it all depends

on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like

the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite

and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn

supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another

general election within six months and are remaining

in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting

new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists

in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing

new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get

involved in the election. Safe to say, they're

feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly

opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words

and have apologised. Look, in the general election

campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates

in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they

stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates

who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats

for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way

we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last

till the next election because we all want to

win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,

staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,

but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor

to Labour winning power? Before the general election

was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party

was played out in the election of the general secretary

of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,

who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,

faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour

moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,

and this week he was sacked from his Unite position

as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been

the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by

that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed

for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about

nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it

showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's

a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for

misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's

because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the

evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the

union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in

relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and

no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own

independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond

parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused

of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."

What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision

reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the

involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in

terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of

quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So

actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe

I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show

trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the

proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the

different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our

members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They

wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a

different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes

but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters

that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a

legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make

sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you

think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the

certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the

result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in

the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification

Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High

Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I

think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this

certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High

Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it

say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be

sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a

robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for

it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the

election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and

for most employees if they have had that length of service, some

consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been

re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.

Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a

key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've

lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general

election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about

a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the

party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an

influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that

starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the

electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than

being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what

you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the

Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The

reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the

disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in

Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically

linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a

much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a

member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed

from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?

That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?

I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear

from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have

felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's

important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure

they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being

with us. I've been joined now from Leeds

by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he

use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why

would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,

if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow

Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are

vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the

man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for

the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also

wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable

decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour

member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and

that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There

will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,

when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned

against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party

reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is

a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we

will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be

clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was

previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction

in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you

say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.

He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not

going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have

got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a

piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has

changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.

The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the

many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election

campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the

new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the

changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say

this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools

and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the

leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not

going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want

that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last

couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER

They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to

listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics

has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard

Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the

problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair

years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across

the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve

them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the

last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a

problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about

that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker

for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of

these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people

and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move

to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will

see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.

Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a

long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants

to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to

express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election

it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on

the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or

the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That

is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look

carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate

will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the

Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is

suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change

it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have

different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in

action and what happened in the general election showed the idea

that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than

doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election

in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of

votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.

Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I

have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people

especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.

Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John

McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of

the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a

letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?

That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to

have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within

the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on

membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I

will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any

particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will

see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another

in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit

which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which

working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was

asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of

the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which

exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs

union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is

something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or

against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question

of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our

economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.

The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame

for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the

same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of

Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what

happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and

I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though

something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we

can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,

that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the

government have sat on the recommendations, like the

recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those

documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties

should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a

national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained

the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should

do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,

but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public

inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks

for joining us. It's just gone 1140,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

minutes, the Week Ahead. First, though, the Sunday

Politics where you are. We'll be picking up on the latest

information about the tower blocks And reflecting on what we've

learned so far about the Grenfell Tower fire itself,

where the recovery operation is likely to last - say police -

until the end of the year. I'm joined by the Conservative MP

for Wimbledon, Stephen Hammond, and by Rushanara Ali,

Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow. A word first about what's

happening in Camden. Tenants of four blocks have

spent a second night That is apart from 80 or so

residents who have refused to budge. The work to remove the cladding

here could take three or four weeks. The Labour-controlled council made

the decision to evacuate buildings So far no other London

council has followed suit. But we know there are issues

around cladding in Barnet, Hounslow, Islington,

Brent - and we suspect Wandsworth. Which has, like Croydon,

said it is going to retrofit This is what the mayor

of London said this morning. I was enclosed conduct with Camden

Council on Wednesday and Thursday -- I was in close contact. I think they

have done the right thing, you can't play Russian roulette with people's

safety and they have received the advice from the experts that acted

on the advice and I'm hoping that because the council speedily asked

for this help and because the government has said they are

committed to helping councils who need their help, we will soon the

work that needs to be done on the building to make it safe so families

can go back to their homes. A clear need for issuance, 34 tests

have come back with 34 positives for flammable material -- reassurance.

Yes, this has got to be done properly, but the problem is to make

sure that we do the testing and then taking the fire advice and that is

clearly what is taking, but also making sure that there is support

for councils and local authorities who will have to bear the costs. As

I understand it from Fire Services, the costs will vary from building to

building. Because in itself the material is not a problem, it is

what it is layered with which is the problem, making sure you understand

that, and then the size of the building. In Tower Hamlets they

don't seem to have the cladding that is a worry, but you can tell from

the Czechs, there is real nervousness amongst the high-rise

den stash you can tell from the checks. Yes, that huge anxiety, I

was visiting residents in blocks where testing is being done, and in

one case we are waiting for advice from the Department on whether the

cladding needs to be removed so we have one block. We have fire wardens

monitoring and supporting local residents in that block. We are not

out of the woods either, but there is a bigger issue which is, I'm not

confident that this is being done systematically, the cladding issue

is being inspected systematically, but we had a fire in my constituency

yesterday in a low rise building without cladding. And I'm concerned

that the government needs to step up the inspections and support across

blocks which could have wider issues which has come up, and I flagged up

these issues through the communities and local government committee over

the last year. We have got to look at this much more widely.

So much blurs into one in this tumultuous period for the capital.

But the attack outside a mosque at the beginning of the week again

put safety and policing to the fore, and senior police officer

after senior police officer talked about money.

The emergency services put to the test again this week

after a terror attack in Finsbury Park only days

Across London, many are saying they don't feel safe,

not least in the Muslim community who were subjected to

Islamophobia, unfortunately, is on the rise, and hate crime

is also on the rise and we have to do something

This Muslim woman had to be comforted by the Communities

I was devastated, scared, for the community,

The government is stressing it will take Islamophobic

There is no place for this hatred in our country today.

And we need to work together as one society and one

community to drive it out, this evil, that is affecting

But the Mayor of London believes it is as much

a question of resources for the Metropolitan Police

which has had to make savings of ?600 million since 2010.

My message to the government is, the plans you have to make further

cuts of ?400 million, don't do it.

My message to the government is, the plans you had to change

the police funded formula so London loses more money, don't do it.

But the opposition at City Hall say the mayor could find

They do need to find another ?400 million of efficiency savings.

?300 million of that had been earmarked before Sadiq Khan

The mayor is in charge of a gross budget approaching ?17 billion.

The ?100 million that he's missing and that is the real figure,

not the one he is pushing in the media, is 0.59% of that.

Any politician worth their salt can move things around to close that

Whatever the case may be, the Commissioner Cressida Dick

admitted to BBC London this week that her officers were

We are not having any fewer calls for help from the public

And I'm talking with the mayor and with the government

about the resources that we need, I believe, in the future.

She has acted to increase the number of officers armed with tasers

to respond to situations like the attack in North London.

But after three terror attacks in as many months,

many are wondering what else needs to be done to protect

Joining me now, Mak Chishty formerly the highest ranking Muslim

The leader in Islington set this week he didn't think there had been

a spike in hate crime after what happened at London Bridge, I think

the Mayor of London said there had been. Have we seen an increase in

hate crime? Definitely, there's been an increase following both

Manchester but also following the London Bridge attacks to a point

where it has reached unprecedented levels. It will stay -- return back

to normal but there has been an increase. What can be done about it?

We need to stop communities turning on one another so it's important to

respond to the incident quickly, other community impact assessment so

you understand the whole circumstances of it, and make sure

communities and victims feel confident. This is about reaching

out. So that they have confidence in police. How did you feel the

response was not just by the police but community leaders of all faiths

to what happened at Islington? I thought despite the horrendous

attack, the fact that front line officers got there and neutralised

the threat within eight minutes was excellent and a complete testament

to their professionalism. I thought the way the community reacted,

especially the imam, showed our principles and values and it was a

good example. And I thought the way politicians, police and the

community came together shown the ability of standing together against

any threat, condemning it and being strong and defiant. You can talk

freely now you are out of the force, do you think the police have been

doing enough to tackle Islamophobia? I was responsible for hate crime,

and a lot of the effort goes in there. A lot of other networks are

used... You mean police? Community networks. We are building our

ability to respond but also we are reaching out to people to say that

no matter how small you think it is, it is important to tell us so we can

identify trends and make sure we deter and prevent it and if we

cannot, we capture someone and take them to justice. Where'd you think

the law can be improved? Some people are accepting it as a way of life,

and it shouldn't. Even if it is someone tugging at your headscarf,

you may think the police cannot do something about this but we want to

know. For community's sake, let us no. Rushanara Ali, is enough being

done to tackle this? In my constituency we have had numerous

attempts by far right groups who have demonstrated outside the east

London mosque and we've had a lot of support from the police. We've also

had in the past Antrim Choudhury and the Muslim defence league and the

community wants quick, instant response from the police and we've

had that but one of the issues is the balance between protest and

incitement to violence and I think the Government needs to look at both

kinds of protest and make sure that is dealt with firmly because we just

cannot have violence taking place outside religious buildings. The

second point is to support the Home Office offered for security in

mosques, and glad the Government is reviewing the process because

mosques like the east London Mosque didn't get the grant they had

applied for even though they have been victims of hate crime. The

final point is around community support officers. The commission

raised alarm bells about the cut, they are the eyes and ears of our

communities and now in my constituency the police are having

to work with local communities to have community wardens and train

them. We cannot have that as a substitute for policing which is

where some areas are heading because of the 20,000 police cuts. How has

your community responded to London Bridge, Stephen? A lot of people

have said the same as what Mak side, which is we cannot allow terrorism

to become routine. The Prime Minister was right in reviving it. I

work closely with one of the mosques in my constituency, there was an

extra piece walk after Manchester just highlight what they are doing

within the community. But I think there are a number of things coming

through and the first thing is the Home Secretary's response establish

counter extremist commission. Also some of the programmes like the

Channel programme to stop people being radicalised as one of the

successes people don't hear about. Very quick point, do you think the

?400 million cuts threatened for the Met will now happen? It's not

politically durable, is it? There is a dispute with someone in your piece

pointing out the mayor could protect this. They are putting an extra 500

million for counterterrorism issues and as a London MPI will be arguing

London needs that. Channel working, do you agree with that? I think it

is working. It's not just about Islamic extremism, I think about 25%

is about far right extremism as well so it's across the board. When the

cuts started we were focused on traditional types of crimes, the

things we were very familiar with. Going forward we have seen cyber and

online abuse, we have seen hatred, and the mission has grown. At the

same time as we have been constructing our resource base and

going forward, I think the sensible question to be it cannot continue. I

don't think it can, there needs to be a rethink about that but I'd like

to once again pay tribute to our front line officers whose public

service ethos is immeasurable but there will always be a limit to the

stamina. Thank you for being here today.

Recovery. Resilience.

Re-housing. Recrimination.

What happened at Grenfell tower is testing public agencies

and political leaders - national and local - to the limit.

Dan Freedman assessed things there this week.

Red watch, returning to Grenfell for the first time since the fire

to get closure and to apologise to those they couldn't save.

It feels like the mood here is changing.

It's been just over a week since fire tore

through the Grenfell Tower, killing an as yet unknown number of people.

and the anger rises, a day of rage march is planned

# Justice for Grenfell # Justice for Grenfell.

The protest passes peacefully, but the anger is still raw.

These are the questions for everyone in every tower block.

Justice looks like going around, checking every single building that

Going around checking every single one of them,

anywhere where they've got that material where it should not be,

This week, local authorities said hundreds of English tower blocks may

have used similar cladding to that used at Grenfell.

The Government says no one will be left to live in unsafe

buildings and promised an urgent public inquiry.

But for Louise Christian, the tragedy represents

She spent four years seeking justice after the last major UK tower block

She acted for the six victims' families at the inquest.

At the time it happened, there was huge shock.

The public inquiry was announced, and then the public inquiry

got delayed and delayed because of a criminal

investigation, which went on for four and a half years.

The public inquiry was downgraded into being an inquest.

More importantly, the Government that's now in power didn't adopt any

so for example sprinklers were not retrofitted in tower blocks.

There wasn't a review of the building regulations,

But the Fire Brigade union say the Government must

Do you think this could be a Hillsborough moment?

I think it's got to be a major, major turning point.

Like Hillsborough, like other tragedies unfortunately.

Unfortunately, it seems that in this country we only seem

to learn when something this horrific happens.

Osama lives in a neighbouring tower block, and asked us

I was speaking to my neighbour and she said, you know,

her kids have to look at that every day when they wake up.

Every day, you know, when you go to the kitchen

or you go to the balcony, you have to see that.

It's literally a graveyard outside your house.

He says there's a lot to do to make his block safe.

Sometimes both lifts are broken down, so that, for example,

I would have to walk more than ten floors a day up and

I can imagine how that would be for elderly people living

And then you see the poor maintenance of these buildings.

It's like they have no regard for the residents who live here.

And too early to know whether this time the response will be different.

I'm joined by Mike Grannatt, who set up Civil Contingency Secretariat,

which is the department in the Cabinet Office responsible

Now retired some time ago but what did you think about the response

here to the displaced people, the survivors? I think it stalled very

clearly at the beginning when it shouldn't have done. Because there

are good arrangements in place, they are so good they are cited in

guidance to local authorities from the Government and the Society of

local authority Chief executives, which was issued in 2014. We should

have seen a response from the very beginning, where plans that should

have been practised and tested went into place very quickly and we

should have seen Kensington and Chelsea call in help quickly when

they couldn't cope. Why didn't they do this? I don't know but sometimes

senior managers can freeze in place with these things. It can be

difficult to say we are not coping. The training exercises should have

made it easy to do that. Am I right in thinking the procedures could

only be triggered with the say-so of Kensington and Chelsea Council, and

if they kept saying we will cope with this on our own, they couldn't

trigger them? That might be what happened. Other authorities only got

involved more than 48 hours afterwards, what would you say about

that? I would say they must have been pushed into it by the

Government, and they clearly weren't enough resources in London to get

the job done, even with London's resources because by Monday they

were calling in emergency planners from Kent. You are not likely to see

a change in the system that can be triggered independently,

immediately. Why did this not become a pan London response within a few

hours? It is difficult to know because the chief executive at

Kensington and Chelsea would have been sitting on a group to manage

the incident. He and his counsel and his political leadership should have

known very early on that they were facing a catastrophe. Surely there

should be now a system where it gets triggered by someone outside of that

council? You would hope so but that people best to do these things are

people with resources on the ground. There will have to be a better

system in place whereby central government will have to intervene

early on and other boroughs are allowed to intervene early on to ask

serious questions, do you want to help, we are sending it now. With

these events you should throw resources at its early. By the time

you have failed to do that, it is too late. Should the Government have

acted more quickly to say this is London wide, you cannot cope,

whatever you say we are coming in? I think the public inquiry should,

after it has dealt with the urgent matters of fire protection, should

look very hard up the system. It will be very awkward for your

government, and your local authority when this comes out in the wash in

the inquiry. It's important to see what comes out of the public inquiry

and the Prime Minister was right in the House of Commons to apologise

and say the initial response wasn't good enough. The initial response

has kicked in, but everybody will have temporary accommodation within

three weeks, permanent housing is being found for people, the system

has kicked in, there's a Grenfell Tower recovery fund which is already

going. The Treasury is making sure people can access their bank

accounts. DWP is making sure people can access their benefits. The

response was poor, the Prime Minister stood up, but we should

look at whether the Government triggers this in future. The

Government has now later in the day but now on top of it and absolutely

funding the help to people who need it and one of the things that will

also come out of this inquiry is to make sure we look at fire

regulations in the future. As a result of the Lakanal House fire, DC

LG did... What do you say about the response?

I agree with the points about the response needing to be early and it

is worrying that the government did not step in quickly enough. In the

event of terrorist attacks we have a much better system of rapid

response, and we need to draw on those lessons to make sure that we

learn lessons quickly in the event of God forbid any future fires. The

other thing, briefly, on the response after the previous

enquiries, DDC LG committee raised issues in 2012 and 2013, and I've

raised issues about building regulations and safety and it has

fallen on deaf ears, I'm afraid. We can't have that in the future.

Unelected representative, the civil servant takes the rap and resigns,

no political accountability? There is clearly accountability, the Prime

Minister has said we failed and we should have done it faster, and the

response since then has been good and how it should have been, but of

course there has been political acceptance that we got it wrong at

the start and that is one of the lessons to learn, but the key thing

is that this is affecting those people and we need to make sure we

are doing things now that help. Very good to have you here.

My thanks Mike Grannatt, to Rushanara Ali and

We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.

And with that it's back to you, Andrew.

What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give

Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,

the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House

And who's in pole position to take over from Mrs May if she's

A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond

becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.

What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming

on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for

it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also

be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good

sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way

manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not

saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that

there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but

there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that

ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might

have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election

campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the

feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly

self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by

triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a

world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a

plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he

will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber

Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's

support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as

well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about

this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit

supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But

everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead

them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new

leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something

in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,

pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and

if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might

be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have

David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.

David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.

Let me be absolutely plain about this.

Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.

I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,

I've seen a number of prime ministers in

Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.

She makes good decisions, she's bold.

There's no crisis about this government.

It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.

Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.

What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around

in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership

Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.

Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite

sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on

manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not

being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if

they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace

the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,

what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge

difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is

why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very

self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it

is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they

are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the

operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know

who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was

asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not

getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is

on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with

this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in

a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was

sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen

to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much

the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've

spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they

would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is

happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the

Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief

Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you

don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have

Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals

from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but

the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an

arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the

government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be

slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater

priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority

government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the

hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they

can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are

no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That

is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland

politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is

a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that

is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure

for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will

be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus

on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory

which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and

-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the

moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they

think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of

votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour

think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire

and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will

put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they

have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the

House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor

dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour

Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election

if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who

shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.

If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an

election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a

government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,

how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,

because what we saw from the election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any

expectations in his talents as a campaigner but the fundamentals, if

you talk to labour MPs who have been sceptical about him, haven't changed

in terms of his ability to manage the Parliamentary party. Nothing

that has happened so far in terms of the rhetoric coming out from Labour

on Brexit gives any cause for confidence that there is a strategy

or even a tone that has been set that is coherent. You heard the

Unite union man Gerard Coyne who believes he has been purged from the

organisation and he believed that could happen in the party, as well.

But if you have achieved what Jeremy Corbyn has achieved, and he is now

ahead in the polls, even if they don't matter much will stop he has

better ratings than Theresa May now. Why would you not say, this is a

winning formula and I will rebuild the party in my image? It is a

legitimate thing to do, but Europe is crucial. That is why Labour was

like another election sooner rather than later before any crucial votes

on things like the customs union and freedom of movement because they

held together a much bigger coalition than anybody thought but

they did that on the back of angry Remainers. This could factor again

for them. When we talk about remaking the Labour Party in the

image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question is, is that someone who is sceptical

about Europe, and you will see some Labour MPs rebelling on Europe

because they know that's the thing the members agree with them on, and

not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is a long time in politics, as Harold

Wilson said. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon

tomorrow with the Daily Politics, and I'll be back here on BBC One

next Sunday at 11am with Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. The critically-acclaimed

series is back. then we have to treat only patients

with very early stages of favourable tumours and let everybody

else die, and that's not ethical. Explore the human stories

behind the headlines. Across the country,

11 million people But how would their landlords manage

living as tenants?