Browse content similar to 09/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
for scupper the Prime Minister's plans? | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
Having defied expectation in last month's general election, | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
In London as City Hall argues for a special relationship with Europe | :01:17. | :01:27. | |
Havering council are about to vote on breaking away from the capital. | :01:28. | :01:45. | |
If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
them... And with me - as always - | :01:57. | :01:56. | |
for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel - | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
deal with UK could be Theresa May says that | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
other world leaders, including those of China, | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
single market and Customs Union for several years after exit, | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
earlier. I'm beginning to think that | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous, | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous, | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
I can see a scenario We're joined now from | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political, | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude, | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not? | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't. | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India, | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us, | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
business in this country says we should stay in the single market and | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count | :09:14. | :09:23. | |
for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out. | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that, | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here. | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it. | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she | :11:45. | :11:47. | |
didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June | :12:13. | :12:21. | |
2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically, | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
to be the caretaker leader, that is 48-hour, but what do you make of the | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
remain MPs on both sides of the House, plus peers, are going to try | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
to derail this repeal act, that the Government needs to push EU law on | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
to the UK statute book. I I think they will use it to at certain key | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
points to attempt to defeat the Government, not over the whole | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
thing, this summer reminds me so much of the summer of 92 who the | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
Maastricht Treaty coming into a fragile John Major Government, and | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
people then were plotting, in the opposite direction, Eurosceptics to | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
try and stop that. He won with a huge percentage of the vote. Tiny | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
majority, 23, bigger than she would have died for that. A shock victory. | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
The The summer was full of talk and plotting, some which came to | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
fruition in the sessions after and some will come into fruition from | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
this autumn on ward where you will see alliances across the Commons | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
manned the Lords, there will be moments of high Parliamentary drama, | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
I think. Sounds like a long hot autumn. | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
An a long hot autumn, and winter. Winter too? I thought it was all | :14:54. | :15:03. | |
global warming. This will add to the temperature! | :15:04. | :15:04. | |
Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election, | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable | :15:08. | :15:09. | |
as Labour leader for the foreseeable future. | :15:10. | :15:10. | |
So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago - | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
comments in another interview. Chris Williamson, the newly appointed | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends. | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally, | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
about actually, who are Who are making the problems | :16:50. | :16:51. | |
for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're | :16:59. | :17:00. | |
fighting each other. We're joined now from | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister, | :17:05. | :17:05. | |
Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour | :17:06. | :17:16. | |
frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested, | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe, | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015 | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the | :19:06. | :19:16. | |
most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That | :19:39. | :19:46. | |
is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the | :19:51. | :19:59. | |
truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done. | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions, | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20 | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against | :21:46. | :21:54. | |
an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach, | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are | :23:18. | :23:26. | |
saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy | :23:36. | :23:47. | |
Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
church and representing working-class people is at the heart | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us. | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
to begin to examine what caused the tragedy. | :24:57. | :24:58. | |
But some have warned that the situation now needs | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
to be de-politicised, or it will damage | :25:01. | :25:01. | |
In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
where the Grenfell Tower fire took place. | :25:06. | :25:07. | |
But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event. | :25:11. | :25:25. | |
When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
are about the people, not about the politics. | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend. | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
But in the days after this tragedy, there was such outrage | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
at governments and authorities, it became a political | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
storm that those in power struggled to respond to. | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
We want justice, we want justice, we want justice... | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall. | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more, | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades. | :26:30. | :26:40. | |
I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised | :26:41. | :26:42. | |
I think using terms like murder is completely reckless | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated. | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped | :27:12. | :27:20. | |
to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
for others, it was entirely justified. | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics | :27:39. | :27:40. | |
Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
for building improvements in previous years, and returned | :27:45. | :27:45. | |
I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
things about land in London and property ownership in London, | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this? | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower, | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed. | :28:15. | :28:26. | |
It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that." | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
We already know two very clear things. | :28:30. | :28:30. | |
Had the people there been protected by sprinklers, | :28:31. | :28:32. | |
People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers. | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
They should be done year in, year out. | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
or threes, which doesn't make a political statement. | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
So the political parties haven't really needed | :28:47. | :28:47. | |
They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues, | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
has already faced calls for its newly appointed | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
You would call on him, would you, to stand down? | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
I don't think there will be any credibility and some people | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work. | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability... | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
to the truth and that's the most important thing now. | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political, | :29:37. | :29:38. | |
but will the politics help get to the truth? | :29:39. | :29:47. | |
I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington - | :29:48. | :29:49. | |
who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad. | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't | :29:53. | :30:03. | |
met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly. | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate. | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent, | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area. | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
from different groups who can at least advise and feed in | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable, | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster, | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
people feel like that. There is massive failure of political | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad. | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
been accused of... That because my predecessor said I should take | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
responsibility, a clueing colleague of mine got beaten up for that, | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
that up. Thank you for joining us too. | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead. | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
First though, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :37:11. | :37:28. | |
Today must be officially the first day of summer. | :37:29. | :37:30. | |
Not because a weatherman told us, but because it's the season | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
when jobbing reporters awkwardly occupy the presenter's chair. | :37:33. | :37:34. | |
As City Hall argues for a special relationship with Europe, | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
Havering Council are about to vote on breaking away from the capital. | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
With me for the next 20 minutes - Barry Gardiner, Labour MP | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
for Brent North, Shadow Cabinet minister and a veteran of duffing up | :37:46. | :37:47. | |
two big beasts of the Westminster reporting fraternity, | :37:48. | :37:56. | |
Nick Robinson and Adam Boulton, during the election campaign. | :37:57. | :37:58. | |
I'm hoping I'll not need a crash helmet, Barry. | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
And the Conservative MP for Spelthorne on London's south | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
Kwasi writes on his website that his first name is one given | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
to boys born on Sundays in parts of Ghana. | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
We must start with the grim reality of Grenfell Tower, | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
and your reaction to the news that fire crews at Grenfell Tower | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
on the night reported low water pressure, radio problems | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
and the time it took to get high ladders - | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
a higher platform - for tackling the fire | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
It is easy to say we could have spent more money and things would | :38:26. | :39:02. | |
have been mitigated, my own view is that clearly there were failures in | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
terms of the cladding, in terms of the actual building and the | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
regulations that were followed and that is why we have an inquiry, we | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
have a judge who believe has been appointed who will look into the | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
facts, and hopefully will fiend out some degree of responsibility but I | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
don't think the fire equipment necessarily is the main focus, or | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
should be the main focus of the investigation, we have to find out | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
what happened. We have a sense of what happened. We need to get the | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
facts straight and we immediate to work out what the failure in terms | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
of regulation was a. The first thing I would like to say it is | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
extraordinary how Emma as a new MP has stepped up and been able to deal | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
with this. I think she has done a remarkable jobs, and I want to pay | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
tribute to the work she has done, with her community. There she was a | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
few minutes ago argued that Sir Martin Moore Bic should stand down, | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
and that is not the view, is it of the Labour leadership? No No, what | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
she has done is is really tried to understand the very deep anger, and | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
concern of her community, and to reflect that to those in authority | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
in Parliament. And I think she, you know, it is a very, sensitive, | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
incredibly difficult role she has taken on as an MP with only days of | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
experience. I think we should all recognise that. It is difficult, | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
tightrope to walks but she has done it extraordinarily well. On the | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
point you made about the equipment and so on, I think one of the things | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
that we really should see the inquiry widened out to look at, is | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
the way in which these supposedly compliance codes that are written, | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
you see, there are building regulation, and then the industry | :40:51. | :40:52. | |
creates compliance codes that says if you do this and this, then you | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
might reach the compliance... And that seems to have gone wrong here | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
and industry has been given too much power to water down the building | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
regulations. We will come back if to that in a moment. I will stop you | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
because the turmoil in Kensington has continued this week. At meeting | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
residents heckled the judge, while the council has had a shake-up in | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
its management imposed by the government, but will that be enough | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
to quell the anger in the community? The Mayor of London says otherwise. | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
After the dramatic silences of last week that saw the leader | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
of Kensington and Chelsea Council resign, the Royal Borough | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
Elizabeth Campbell was chosen to head the council in the presence | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
of the minister for London, Greg Hands. | :41:41. | :41:42. | |
A show of the Government's increasingly hands on approach to | :41:43. | :41:44. | |
And the first thing I'm going to do, is to reach out to our community, | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
And the second thing I'm going to do is to phone up Sajid Javid, | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
as Secretary of State, and ask for more help. | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
That's what her predecessor was criticised for not doing enough of. | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
Now the government's ordered a new task force to take over | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
It's not yet known who'll be on it, but we do know its remit. | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
The special focus of this recovery task force is going to be | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
on housing, regeneration, and community engagement. | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
But Labour say no task force can restore the Conservative-run | :42:23. | :42:24. | |
Mr Speaker, could I gently say to the Minister, | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
the fudge at local level about who's in control won't work. | :42:29. | :42:30. | |
The local community do not want the usual suspects in charge | :42:31. | :42:32. | |
City Hall has a more radical proposal. | :42:33. | :42:44. | |
What the Government should be doing is consulting local residents, | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
and then sending in commissioners to take over the running | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
While the row continues over who ought to be in charge, | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
residents are living in precarious circumstances. | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
Of the 158 families affected, only 14 have accepted offers | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
of temporary accomodation - like this one. | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
Others evacuated from the area were, this week, escorted back | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
It's now up to the task force to find homes for those families | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
I'm joined now by Eleanor Kelly, the Chief Executive | :43:11. | :43:20. | |
of Southwark Council who has now been drafted in as the official | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
spokesperson for the Grenfell Tower disaster response team. | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
Good morning. Thank you for coming in. Any update for us this morning | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
on the number of people who have been rehoused? The number of people | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
who have accepted temporary been rehoused? The number of people | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
rehousing is 16. It is starting to slowly move forward. What is the | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
sticking point, why is that number still so low? People don't want to | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
make two move, they want to move to their permanent accommodation and | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
for many people, they have been through such a terrible trauma they | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
are not ready to think about their housing option, including people who | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
are having their housing needs assessed on the basis of family | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
members who are missing, presumed dead. We hear a lot, understandably | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
about the sense of anger, and dislocation there is in the | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
community, how do you go about trying to address that? It is such a | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
huge challenge. There are practicalities round trying to find | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
homes and people wrestling with the dilemma of whether they want to go | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
into temporary accommodation or wait, but how do you deal with that | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
sense of dislocation, and anger and try and start the process of taking | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
it on and helping people? You have to recognise the layers and | :44:34. | :44:47. | |
impacts on different communities. You start with the bereaved and they | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
have a different type of support package. You have the survivors from | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
the fire and people whose homes have been destroyed in Grenfell Tower. | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
The Lancaster west estate is an estate made up of 1000 properties, | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
151 of which were destroyed, but the other 849 properties are inhabited | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
and those people in that community have been impacted dreadfully too. | :45:12. | :45:21. | |
Then you have the communities of Kensington and Chelsea, the issues | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
around London, and of course this was a national disaster. You have to | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
recognise the response and actions have to be specifically tailored and | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
very detailed in respect of each of those different levels. So for | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
instance you mentioned firstly those who are believed, what support is | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
being offered for them? There's a specific facility in the friends and | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
family assistance centre that provides a package directly to | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
bereaved families and individuals. It is separate from any of the other | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
facilities provided to any of the other communities and they are | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
supported in specialist bereavement services as well as the bereavement | :46:03. | :46:15. | |
services around housing, social care, and key workers have to be | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
supported in a different way to the general community. How is the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
relationship working between you guys, the local authority, the Mayor | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
of London and government. The argument would be made layers of | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
complexity is necessary when responding to a tragedy of the scale | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
but I guess there is a possibility of that bringing conflict. I don't | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
see any conflict. There are probably something like 20 different agencies | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
across the public sector, the voluntary sector and private sector | :46:51. | :46:52. | |
as well as government bodies involved in this stage of the | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
response which has moved from rescue into recovery. And it really is | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
complex to get into much more steady state and get these communities back | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
into something much more resembling business as usual. Your reaction to | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
what you're hearing and the response governmentally, whether locally or | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
nationally, how do you think it is going? Just listening to the | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
account, I think people are coming together. It's obviously an | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
appalling tragedy, nobody can deny that, this sort of thing should not | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
be happening in London, but I'm struck by how people are coming | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
together to find answers. There is an element of politics involved but | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
after the tragedy, I'm actually quite surprised and pleased that | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
people are trying to make common cause and get to the bottom of what | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
went wrong and seeing how we can avert something as terrible as this | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
happening again. It's a fairly good response. Barry? We have to cement | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
things, there has to be a response to different elements of the | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
community, those who have suffered treatments, in precisely the way you | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
were saying, but also there has to be a vent for the anger and concern | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
and that takes us into the realms of politics because we know that | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
political decisions were not taken that could have averted this tragedy | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
and that other decisions now need to be taken and swiftly to make sure | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
nothing like this happens again. Thank you, and Eleanor thank you for | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
coming in. Carnivals, with their cacophony | :48:32. | :48:32. | |
and colour, have made the news this week with a row over the route | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
of this year's Notting Hill Carnival and a prominent human rights | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
campaigner arguing that the annual Pride London parade, which took | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
place yesterday, has "morphed into a commercialised, | :48:45. | :48:46. | |
bureaucratic and rule-bound event." The human rights campaigner | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
Peter Tatchell has criticised the Mayor of London, | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
Westminster Council and the Metropolitan Police | :48:55. | :48:55. | |
for imposing what he contends are onerous controls | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
and Draconian costs on the event, reducing the numbers of those | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
marching to 26,000. He compares the controls to the much | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
bigger Notting Hill Carnival, where, he argues, fewer restrictions | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
are in place. A spokesperson for | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
the Mayor responded: This year's Pride in London | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
parade promises to be the biggest ever with 81 floats | :49:19. | :49:20. | |
and 231 walking groups. Over one million people will line | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
the streets in an event that will celebrate London's | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
LGBT plus community. This week, the Notting Hill Carnival | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
was in the news with the Minister for London, Greg Hands, | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
writing to the mayor, Sadiq Khan, asking for the route of this year's | :49:35. | :49:36. | |
carnival to be changed, so that it did not take place | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
in the shadow of Grenfell Tower. Notting Hill Carnival is a firm | :49:40. | :49:53. | |
London tradition and incredibly important to the local community. It | :49:54. | :49:55. | |
should not be moved. And I'm joined by the human rights | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
campaigner Peter Tatchell. Address our viewer who is thinking, | :49:58. | :50:09. | |
gosh, Peter is moaning about this wonderful carnival that is so | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
mainstream now that there's all these corporate sponsors, what's | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
wrong with that? It is wonderful and there is huge progress but I think a | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
lot of people feel that the event is now over commercialised. Of course | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
we need corporate sponsorship to pay for it, that's fine, but it has | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
become too dominant and the rules and restrictions imposed by the | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
authorities are destroying the spontaneity of the event. I think | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
compared to some years ago when 100,000 people were in the parade, | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
to reduce it by rules to only 26,500 is a bit of an imposition. A bit | :50:46. | :50:54. | |
churlish, isn't it? The ethos of Pride is that it is open to anyone, | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
anyone who wants to celebrate LGBT communities can attend, and sadly | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
this year lots of people couldn't join the parade because of the | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
artificial numbers. From the perspective of the authorities, on | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
the one hand you have got the police who will be concerned about ensuring | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
it is safe, and I guess you have those within London who are also | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
conscious that whilst many will want to celebrate, others will want to | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
head out to central London and go shopping. There is a balancing act | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
to be struck. No such concerns or restrictions were imposed on the | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
previous weekend's anti-austerity March or other protests. They are | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
not bound by the same rules or Draconian costs and I think there | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
needs to be an even playing field for everyone. Let's broaden out our | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
discussion to all things London and carnivals. There's a discussion | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
about whether there should be re-routing of the Notting Hill | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
Carnival the context of Grenfell Tower. Your reactions, picking up on | :51:58. | :52:06. | |
the Pride celebrations, what do you make of what Peter said? I think he | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
has a point. Years ago there were more people and it was less | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
commercialised. I saw in your clip of Barclays Bank logo which is not | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
something you necessarily would have seen ten or 15 years ago so I think | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Peter has a point but there's also the point about trying to make it | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
safe and if the authorities, people feel that there are certain rules | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
you need to have in order to keep the things smoothly running, I think | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
that's fair enough too. Barry, on all things Notting Hill, we have | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
seen a rejection of the suggestion on re-routing it because of Grenfell | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
Tower, what do you think? I think the mayor is right. The Notting Hill | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
Carnival has always been based in that community, to say it should be | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
taken away is to deny the essence of what it is about. It must be rooted, | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
part of that community. It must not see the community... The community | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
mustn't feel that yet again officialdom is coming in and saying | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
no no, we are going to take this away from you and sanitise it. You | :53:20. | :53:28. | |
are bursting to come in. I think Greg is being misrepresented here. I | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
think what you are saying is that because of this appalling event | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
there should be some recognition of that and in some way the Carnival... | :53:35. | :53:42. | |
So his point is more subtle? You yes, no one is trying to ban or | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
restrict things. The community themselves don't want what Greg is | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
saying. I let you speak, you have interrupted me, but what I'm saying | :53:55. | :54:02. | |
is what Greg is saying is we should have acknowledgement that something | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
appalling as happened. Peter, you are a veteran of carnivals and | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
protests and celebrations and you have strong views on Pride, what are | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
your views on what should happen to Notting Hill Carnival? I am pleased | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
there are not the owner is restrictions that have been placed | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
on Notting Hill carnival that have been placed on Pride. I agree the | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
mayor is right, I don't think the Carnival should be moved, but I do | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
think there should be some commemoration so tomorrow I'm | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
writing to the Mayor of London proposing that 3pm on the Carnival | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
Monday sirens should wail across west London to be followed by a | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
minute's stillness and silence so we can fittingly commemorate the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
victims and that compromise means the Carnival can go on but we also | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
very importantly remember those who have died and suffered. Thank you, | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
very interesting. Peter, thank you for coming in. | :55:02. | :55:02. | |
What is he on about, I hear you ask... | :55:03. | :55:11. | |
well, some in one London borough are, | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
to coin a phrase, saying they want to "take back control." | :55:15. | :55:16. | |
The slogan used by outers in the EU referendum campaign has been | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
borrowed by those hoping to wrestle back power from the Mayor | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
Sadiq Khan and return it to the people of Havering - | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
many of whom say they're not Londoners. | :55:26. | :55:26. | |
Since the year 2000, City Hall has been in charge | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
of London's planning, police, transport, | :55:33. | :55:33. | |
the Fire Service, and environmental issues in the capital. | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
This year the mayor's budget for all of that is ?16 billion. | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
It's likely you spend about ?23 a month contributing | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
towards that as part of your council tax, but just as some | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
of London's Brexit heartlands wanted to take power and influence away | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
from the EU, now one London borough wants to be free | :55:51. | :55:52. | |
We want to take back control of planning, | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
we want Havering to leave the London planning process. | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
We raise tax through the GLA precept which is given over to the mayor, | :56:02. | :56:09. | |
then we have to beg for that money back and of course we don't get back | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
So you think Havering would be better off out? | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
Here in the London Borough of Havering, it's market day. | :56:18. | :56:29. | |
We are just 12 miles from the centre of London, | :56:30. | :56:31. | |
but do people here feel like they are part of the capital? | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
I feel I'm a bit, like, a bit both really. | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
And do you think Sadiq Khan's City Hall should have control of Havering | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
or do you think it should have control of itself? | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
I think Havering should control itself. | :56:45. | :56:45. | |
Go to London, it's a rat race, isn't it? | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
Do you think Sadiq Khan's City Hall should have control of your life? | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
It should be a Londoner doing the job that knows London. | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
And yet there are also those here, like Jazz, who wanted her Indian | :57:01. | :57:14. | |
restaurant to feel like part of the capital. | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
You would find something like this in Shoreditch, | :57:17. | :57:17. | |
Camden, so, you know, and this is provided | :57:18. | :57:19. | |
The reason we have brought the feel of London so people in Havering | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
don't have to travel too far out and this is more | :57:27. | :57:28. | |
Which suggests some here do consider themselves to be Londoners. | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
But on Wednesday the council will vote on a motion introduced | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
by Ukip to make Havering a unitary authority - a move being described | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
Yes, I find it slightly bizarre, to tell you the truth. | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
I have been slightly blindsided when I heard about this. | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
What is the implications for Havering having its own police | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
force, I don't know the details about that, or I think | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
I mean it does tap into a sense of people frustrated | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
with the people who make decisions about their lives. | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
A year ago it was the people over in Brussels. | :58:03. | :58:04. | |
Now it seems to be people in the town hall. | :58:05. | :58:06. | |
Sadiq Khan says he doesn't think councillors will give this | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
motion the time of day, but the local Conservative MP says | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
if it passes he will push for a change in the law. | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
When you have a Labour Mayor of London that looks at a borough | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
like Havering and thinks, ah, let's build tens of thousands | :58:22. | :58:23. | |
of houses in a borough like that, when it doesn't have local support, | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
A City Hall bureaucracy taking power away from local people, | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
from local politicians and from the decision-making, | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
you know, democratic decision-making local community is wrong. | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
While most here admit a Hexit seems unlikely, | :58:42. | :58:43. | |
it was only last year that similar frustrations led to | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
Culturally fascinating reflections on what is happening in Havering, | :58:47. | :58:57. | |
regardless to what happens about the suggestions in the council, and | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
Kwasi there's a history we should tap into. Absolutely, when | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
essentially Middlesex county council was abolished in 1965 the GLC was | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
created, the two district councils which made up Spelthorne had a | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
choice, they could decide to be part of Greater London or part of Surrey, | :59:20. | :59:28. | |
which is what happened. When I hear that, I reflect on a familiar | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
argument in my constituency. Some people say, why can't we be part of | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
London, but I suspect the majority want to have a distinctive | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
independence outside of London. They love being near London but don't see | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
themselves as being part of it. They can say that is a problem these | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
people are causing us and therefore what we will do is build a wall and | :59:53. | :59:59. | |
keep them over there and guard our separation, or you can say, goodness | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
me, we have a problem, and let's get in there and try and deal with that, | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
and I think that is coming out at national and local | :00:11. | :00:11. | |
and try and deal with that, and I think that is coming out | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
Now just under a year ago, Theresa May was making her way back | :00:15. | :00:27. | |
from Buckingham Palace having been asked by the Queen | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
To say it's been a tumultuous twelve months would be an understatement - | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
here's a reminder of the highs and lows. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
I have just been to Buckingham Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
has asked me to form a new Government and I accepted. | :00:44. | :00:52. | |
If you're just managing, I want to address you directly. | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
I know you're working around-the-clock, I know | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
you're doing your best, and I know that sometimes | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
When future generations look back at this time, | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
they will judge us not only by the decision that we made, but by | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
I have just chaired a meeting of the Cabinet, where we agreed | :01:10. | :01:24. | |
that the Government should call a general election to | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
The Conservative Party has won the most seats | :01:29. | :01:46. | |
and probably the most votes, then it will be incumbent on us | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
to ensure we have that period of stability and that is exactly | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
So 12 months in the life of Theresa May, and the rest of us too. I am | :01:56. | :02:12. | |
exhausted. I don't know what she feels like! How weak or strong is | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
her position and this constant reporting, more on the Sunday paper | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
today about groups of Tory MPs manoeuvring to bring her down in the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
autumn, before the autumn after the autumn, name a month between now and | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
the end of the year. Is that, that has to be corrosive as well. | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Absolutely. Every week there will be another story. The reality is the | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
stronger Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party look the stronger her | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
position is because it is what are the alternative, Theresa May or... | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
It is depending on the polls where it is Theresa May herself who is | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
helping to cause that boost for Jeremy Corbyn, if she is the toxic | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
part of the Tory party brand, and if they get rid of her the Tories would | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
spring back up and the Labour Party would go down or is it best for her | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
to soak it, literally draw out the toxins and then, I don't know, two | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
money, six months a year, she stands down and next leader takes the over, | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
next generation or David Davis and they start again, start afresh, and | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
she takes all the badness, the toxins with her this is thing, there | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
must be a hell of a lot of detailed polls right now find that out. I | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
don't know the answer. Can she relaunch herself? No, she will make | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
a big speech on Tuesday, ex tracts are being briefed into tomorrow's | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
papers, I have seen them. . What is the subject matter? Me. Not me, her. | :03:39. | :03:46. | |
There has been enough movement from BBC... It is going to be her, it | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
will be the relaunch. I have a purpose, still here and allow me to | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
stay, but the problem is, Julia is right, there is a feeling among Tory | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
MPs it would be ideal for her to last at least two years, suck in the | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
bad bit, and to have a referendum or not, and the miscalculations and | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
bring in a new person, untarnished. The problem over that is events dear | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
boy as someone once said. Brexit may go well, it may not. Talks may | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
produce something or she may get stuck down a hole. She is the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
sticking plaster over the two side of the Tory party. She is there, | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
because they want her to be there and that Palacester is stilled | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
holding, if that seismic divide goes any further, the plaster breaks she | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
will go down the hole with it. David Davis said she doesn't want a | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
leadership election, the papers are full of briefings from what are | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
claimed to be from his people saying she faces abject misery, that it is | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
time she will have to go sooner rather than later, they clearly | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
haven't got the memo from DD as he is called. Publicly they have, to | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
declare loyalty until the moment when they feel the time has come to | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
be disloyal. The problem she has got is that context determines 95% of | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
how a leader is perceived. She can make a brilliant speech this week | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
about how she plans to be bold but the context is that lost majority in | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
the election, a hung parliament with Brexit looming. It makes it hard to | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
be bold, hung Parliaments are not bold. You will have to manoeuvre all | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
the time and it be exhausting and transparent in the scheming, a like | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
with the arrangement with the DUP, some of the vote it is a have | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
happened and it will be utterly draining, now Julia is is right. The | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
key question for the Tories will be if they get someone else in, does | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
that transform their prospects? While that is not clear, I agree she | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
will probably cling on, but there will be no glorious summer for her | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
again, the pre-election context was fantastic for her, it is really dark | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
now, and tough. The key thing is what you said, who would have thunk | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
it. You have said the Tories are frightened to call to provoke us | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
another election because they fear, they think Jeremy Corbyn will win. | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
Who would have thought we would get into that position? In the same | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
argument who would have thought Theresa May been so popular. Who | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
would have thought Jeremy Corbyn would get where he is now? That | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
shows there is still hope for not maybe, maybe not Theresa May, I | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
think that she has holed below the water line, what goes up can also | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she will | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the election | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the fight, but to be | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or holed below | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
the water line, what goes up can also come down, but in Theresa May's | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
defence, and I don't think she will last very long, and I think she has | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
been exposed, during the election campaign for just not having enough | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
of depth, of the fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
steel, a lesser man or woman holed below the water line, what goes up | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
can also come down, but in Theresa May's defence, and I don't think she | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
will last very long, and I think she has been exposed, during the | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
election campaign for just not having enough of depth, of the | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
fight, but to be fair she must have a backbone of steel, a lesser man or | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
woman who have gone, "I'm off now." To take the flak she is get, she is | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
steely as they come. It is almost a form of penance she is doing, having | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
brought her party to this less than glorious position, she's having to | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
try and kind of restore things a bit, knowing in her heart of hearts | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
and perhaps not as deep at that, that she will not be the | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
beneficiary. Absolutely not. That is what she said to the 1922 Committee | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
that Monday after the general election, I got us into this mess, I | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
am going to get us out of it. Talks to MPs this week, it is interesting, | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
there is pretty hard feeling settling that the new person should | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
come from the 2010 intake, skip a generation. The Boris, the Teresa, | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
the Hammonds. Bye Amber Rudd? She has a tiny minority -- majority. | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
There was one minister in your foyer an hour ago. Did we have a foyer? I | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
think about 30 of them, all of them believe it or not fancy their | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
chance, and for any of those to expose themselves and to lay out | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
their agenda they will need two-years to make these sort of | :08:20. | :08:21. | |
Sport Reliefs Let us turn to Labour. Well, earlier we talked | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
to Caroline Flint about the threat Here's what Shadow Minister | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
and Corbyn ally, Chris Williamson, MPs need to reflect the political | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
programme that is overwhelmingly supported by Labour members | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
and Labour supporters, and if people aren't | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
prepared to do that, then it will be up to members | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
in their local constituencies How big a change is Labour going to | :08:41. | :08:57. | |
undergo? To what extent will Labour now be recast in the mould of Mr | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
Corbyn and his wing of the party? Well in policy terms it already has | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
been largely recast into the Corbyn McDonnell view, although with lots | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
of examples of them being pretty expedient, Trident being an example. | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Where they went into the election backing retention, even though | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
personally they are totally committed to nuclear disarmament. He | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
might be able to move to that position? They might but that | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
example of expend yen sip leads me to this. . I suspect Corbyn and | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
McDonnell will be thinking we are close to power do we really want 18 | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
months of Civil War, which is what deelection battles would become, and | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
terrible publicity, and an imflowing a party on the verge possibly of an | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
election win. -- implosion. My guess is they won't and they will go out | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
of their way to try and stop it. John McDonnell said many times | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
divide a party lose elections, I don't think they will want this. | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
There are power battles in party, we have been talking about it in the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
Tory party, and there will be moments of heightened tension | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
between the Labour MPs and their memberships but I don't think that | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
this is going to happen. If Steve is right we should be looking for signs | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
of them looking for signs of them hosing things down. Although, I | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
don't think they need to do this. The moderate wing of the party, they | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
are not standing up to Jeremy Corbyn any more, they are trying to get a | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
few Select Committee Chairmanships and survive and hope something | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
happens. The extraordinary thing is, given that no-one expected Jeremy | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
Corbyn, no-one tried to deselect him and no-one accused him of | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
disloyalty. We are in Soviet style show trial, you know, repent | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
territory. We haven't had a show trial yet. Matter of time. Apart | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
from Brexit. The Labour Party are united until it comes to votes on | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
the House of Commons on what to do about Europe. So, Brexit goes well, | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
that 49 will wither away a bit and start getting... If Brexit goes | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
badly. Vince Cable saying we need a mud referendum, huge temptation then | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
among Labour MPs to recalibrate and a oar gue for staying in and that | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
would split the partyty down the middle. You heard Owen Paterson say | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
85% of people voted for parties that wanted Brexit, meaning Labour and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Conservative. It is true that Jeremy Corbyn and Mr McDonnell are more | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Eurosceptic than people realise. They want another election quickly, | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
because they don't know how, this maybe as good as it gets. None of us | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
know, so get an election quick because we think we might win it. | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
That means that they could well play game, why would they just bolster | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
the store Tories if a big defeat on Brexit could provoke an election. I | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
am guessing they will play games, if there is chance of undermining the | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
Government perhaps fatally to get this early election which would be | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
massively in their interest, theyry ahead in the poll, I think that will | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
do it. They have displayed expediency on Europe in the past, | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
possibly arguing for it why having doubts about it in the referendum, | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
for Remain, sorely. So yes, I think there will be, as I said earlier, in | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
this Parliament there will be going to be moments where it looks as if | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
the Government could be defeat and I think they will move towards | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
defeating the Government. Any remainor should be more worried | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
about the economics of a Corbyn left Government. On that point we better | :12:57. | :12:58. | |
On that point we better leave it there. | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
I'll be back here on BBC One at the same time next week | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
And Jo Co's back tomorrow with the Daily Politics on BBC Two | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
at the earlier time of 11am - that's because of Wimbledon. | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:15. | :13:24. |