Browse content similar to 16/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out | :00:51. | :00:58. | |
Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again, | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
In London - once a year you can visit your local council | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
So what happened when armchair auditors in Lambeth did just that? | :01:29. | :01:45. | |
Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job. | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn. | :02:00. | :02:09. | |
First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines, | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond. | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events. | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning, | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit. | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
who are not happy with the agenda that I have, | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being | :03:05. | :03:17. | |
undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
true. That's the least controversial part of it! The briefing is his | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
position on Brexit and also frustration on his position over | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
public sector pay then it is over any kind of leadership manoeuvrings. | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that he was doubling down on the issue of | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
public sector pay rises. He didn't categorically deny using the words | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
of overpaid, in fact he reiterated the fact he sees them as whether | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
they are overpaid or not so I believe he did use that phrase but | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
clearly he's got the tone wrong and I don't think he's done himself any | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
favours. He's a pretty wealthy man himself, multimillionaire. He must | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
have some kind of political deafness if he thinks it's OK for someone in | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
his position to say, in a number of cases, lowly paid public sector | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
workers are overpaid? I think he is politically deaf, and not | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
emotionally intelligent. He has a great head for figures but very poor | :04:31. | :04:42. | |
at expressing himself. It was a crass remark over women train | :04:43. | :04:55. | |
drivers. He may be in the right place on some arguments, he's just | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
extremely poor at expressing and that's what gives his opponents the | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
chance to rip his head off. He should have worked out by now that | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
it is clear whatever... Because of the dim munition of Mrs May's | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
authority that whatever you see in the Cabinet now is likely to become | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
public in some shape or form. I think this is the profound lesson of | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
the story, that Cabinet discussion is almost impossible now, and | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
Hammond will go away this summer thinking I can't engage in a proper | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
debate in Cabinet because they will leak it. It sounds as if they were | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
having quite a grown-up conversation about public sector pay with a | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
spending department ministers putting the case for breaking the | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
cup and Hammond saying from the Treasury perspective this is what's | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
happening. Which is what normally happens in Cabinet. He would hope | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
so, not any more. He won't be able to speak his mind in Cabinet because | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
he knows it will be leaked and that is another sign of fragility of this | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
Government, when you cannot have a grown-up discussion about public | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
sector pay even in Cabinet, and that means Cabinet discussion which is | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
urgently needed on Brexit and the rest of it cannot happen in an open | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
way because leaking is happening. Mrs May is not exactly top of the | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
Pops with her own party at the moment but doesn't help her in the | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
fact that her Chancellor is even less top of the Pops? The key thing | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
is that backbenchers don't want a leadership contest at the moment. | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
There are a number of Cabinet ministers or more senior figures who | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
have been around longer who may feel this is their last chance of the | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
leadership and they are urgently wanting it happen now. Backbenchers | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
don't want it, I don't think it will happen. Will it happen? I don't | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
think it will. There are egos clashing in the Cabinet and also | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
many who just want things to stay the way they are, so they will. We | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
will talk more about this leadership matter later in the programme, but | :07:06. | :07:06. | |
let's move on. This week the government passed | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
another Brexit milestone when in introduced the Repeal Bill | :07:09. | :07:09. | |
to the Commons. It will incorporate all EU law | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
into the UK's domestic And although a vote on the Bill | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
isn't due until the autumn, the government still has plenty | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
on its plate when it Brexit secretary David Davis | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
and the EU's negotiator Michel Barnier will sit down | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
for another helping of Brexit negotiations in Brussels | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
this week. Progress now needs to be made | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
on some big questions. They include: the rights of EU | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
citizens living here, How to maintain an open border | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
between Northern Ireland And the size of the financial | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
settlement or so-called divorce bill Previous estimates have included a | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
figure of The British government has put no | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
figure on it, simply saying it This week, Foreign Secretary | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Boris Johnson said the EU could "go whistle" if it was | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
expecting an extortionate fee Brussels wants this set | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
of negotiations focusing on the principles of separation | :08:07. | :08:19. | |
to be done by the end of the year. They can then turn to the main | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
event, the future trading relationship between the UK | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
and the EU. While the UK remains a member | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
of the EU customs union, it cannot But it can hold advanced discussions | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
with other countries. This week, Australian Prime Minister | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Malcolm Turnbull said his country was very keen for a deal | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
as quickly as possible. And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
said he wanted to sign a very powerful UK-US trade | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
deal very quickly. But as trade deals normally | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
take years to negotiate, it is unclear when the first ones | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
will be ready for post-Brexit So there will be plenty | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
for both sides to digest, as negotiations continue | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
over the summer. I'm joined | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
by the International Trade Your brief is to agree new free | :09:10. | :09:19. | |
trade deals but you cannot sign any until Brexit is done, can you even | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
begin proper negotiations this side of Brexit or is that illegal too? We | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
cannot negotiate and conclude a trade agreement but we can scope | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
them out. We can get our preparatory work done. We have got ten working | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
groups established across the world with countries from Korea to the | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
United States to Australia. I know scoping the out is fine, you can | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
talk about trade but you cannot begin formal trade negotiations | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
until after Brexit. No, but we have trade working agreements. Free trade | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
agreements are not the only thing that are in the mix as it were, they | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
are what people think about but we also have mutual recognition | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
agreements where we can reduce some of the barriers to trade, the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
technical barriers, in that process. We have a number of other things | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
going on. We have got to get our trading schedules in Switzerland and | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
Geneva and the World Trade Organisation organised. We then have | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
40 EU free trade agreements and we have to get them ready because if we | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
were not to negotiate those and be ready on the first day of Brexit, | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
there would be huge market disruption. Although you can clearly | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
do a lot of technical work and you can talk till the cows come home, | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
there will be no free trade deals on the shelf ready to sign come March | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
2019 when we are leaving the EU, that's correct isn't it? Technically | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
there will be new ones... There will be no free trade deals ready to say | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
right, we are out, here is a deal I have baked earlier. Not right away | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
because we are not permitted to do that as part of our membership of | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
the European Union and one of the things I want to get is greater | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
freedom to be able to negotiate on behalf of the UK. That's not | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
possible when you are inside the customs union. There's much talk of | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
a transition after 2019. You told Bloomberg you didn't mind a few | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
months, the Chancellor this morning said it would be a couple of years. | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
What is it? The key thing is why would you have a transitional | :11:41. | :11:42. | |
arrangements, how long would it be and what would the conditions be. | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
For me first we have to leave the European Union in March 2019 so | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
there can be no case of extending EU membership. At that point as a third | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
country we can have a transition agreement which keeps as little | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
disruption as possible but it has to have an end date. You said a few | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
months, the Chancellor said a few years, why the difference? As the | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
Chancellor said, it is more a technical argument, because for | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
example how do we get new border equipment in place, how do we get | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
the arrangements for immigration put in place, but for me, you know, I've | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
waited a long time and campaigned long time to leave the European | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
Union. As long as we leave in March 2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
time-limited transitional period to make it work for business. The | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Chancellor doesn't deny the transition could take up four years. | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
The Brexit Secretary David Davis says it could be a maximum of three | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
years, you are talking months. Shouldn't you sort this out around | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
the Cabinet table instead of all three of you sending mixed messages? | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
We are dependent on for example what HMRC Tal us, how investment is | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
going. It's also a question of negotiating with our European | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
partners. We know what's involved, why are you sending out these mixed | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
messages? I don't have a problem with the transition period as long | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
as it is time-limited. It is not just the time, it is the conditions. | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
I want in the transitional period to be able to negotiate agreements at | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
that point. We cannot have a putting off over the freedom to negotiate | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
trade agreements. At the moment is it clear you would be able to sign | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
any free trade deals during a transition period? No, that's to be | :13:42. | :13:49. | |
negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr Davies is right, up to three or four | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
years, it could be 2021 before you get to sign a free trade deal. We | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
don't now how long any would take to negotiate. They don't happen | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
overnight. Would you even be able to negotiate during a transition | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
period? I would hope so, that is one of the conditions we might set. It | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
is certainly something I would want to see because otherwise it makes it | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
much more difficult to take advantage of the opportunities that | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
Brexit itself would produce. Your ink will run dry before you get to | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
sign one of these agreements. We have a huge amount to do and it's | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
not just at the free trade agreement level. We have for example what we | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
get at the World Trade Organisation because the real game for the UK is | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
to get a global liberalisation in the services sector -- the real | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
gain. And I want to come onto that in a minute but before do, are you | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
group of the Cabinet ministers that seems to regularly be briefing | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
against Philip Hammond? No, I deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
think my colleagues should be quiet, stick to their duties, and I expect | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
discipline to be effective. The only people smiling that this will be | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
people in Berlin and Paris. Why are people doing it? The need to have | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
less prosecco. They don't trust Philip Hammond, do they? I don't | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
think that is true. I read in the press we have very different views, | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
in fact our views are very similar on things like transition. I don't | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
know where it is coming from but I think it should stop. | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
But it is happening? It is happening and I think it undermines the | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
position of the government. We do not need an interim leader or an | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
alternative leader. We have a very good competent leader in Theresa | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
May. But he thinks it is being done by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
who is doing it and they should stop. Let's come back to the tariff | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
free trade. There is much talk about that. The Chancellor says much of | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
our trade with the world is in services and free trade deals won't | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
make any particular difference. Do you agree with him? They can make a | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
difference. It has been estimated with the OECD that free trade deals | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
with the United States could add ?42 billion to our bilateral trade by | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
2030. There is a game to be made. In an economy like the UK which is 80% | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
services, what we would benefit from is a range of global liberalisation. | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
One example is data. We have an economy where we talk about freedom | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
of movement of goods and services, but you also have to have the | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
freedom of movement of data. One thing I would like the UK to lead on | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
is to look to a global agreement on that. But the talks have come to an | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
end. There is no great global movement. That is not true. We have | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
just had a multilateral agreement, the trade facilitation was signed | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
this year which seeks to diminish friction at customs around the world | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
and will add 70 billion to the economy. But it leaves plenty of | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
nontariff barriers in place. The moment you start to talk about these | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
complicated rules and regulations that hinder services, it does not | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
make free trade deals impossible, it makes them much more on placated and | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
prolonged to do. Correct? You need to look at what is happening in the | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
global economy. According to the OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20 | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
countries were operating about 300 nontariff barriers. By the end of | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
2015, they were operating nearly three times that number. The silting | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
up of growth and global trade is being done by the global economy. We | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
need to be looking at how we can remove some of those barriers, | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
because otherwise our prosperity becomes limited. Is it still your | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
view that no deal would be better than a bad deal? Anyone who goes | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
into that negotiation without that is foolish. We will not accept any | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right. | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree | :19:09. | :19:23. | |
with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the -- | :20:00. | :20:08. | |
market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
contingency plans and my department and other departments have | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you | :21:14. | :21:22. | |
mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law. | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented. | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a | :22:33. | :22:56. | |
negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value. | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments, | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time. | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you. | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier. | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's | :25:29. | :25:30. | |
But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
with the single market and the customs union - | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier. | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
of the customs union, and that's one of the issues | :25:42. | :25:43. | |
Does it mean staying inside or leaving? | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
Keep all the options open, keep all the options... | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union? | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
We are concentrating on the objectives rather | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
than the structures and that seems to have a resonance | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio. | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union. | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on | :26:35. | :26:55. | |
that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single | :27:07. | :27:08. | |
market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member. | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again, | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength? | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
without coming out of the customs union without any transitional | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single | :29:31. | :29:40. | |
union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor, | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
says people would interpret remaining in the single market is | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
it is completely off the table because stranger things have | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that. | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
stranger things have happened and this process so far has been | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
membership for example but the clear position overall is that free | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is | :34:16. | :34:26. | |
important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John... | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question, | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
through the courts, and could be classified as corporate | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
from Salford, thank you for joining us. | :36:02. | :36:03. | |
You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip | :36:18. | :36:35. | |
about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
there is plotting. This programme understands Ukip's ruling body could | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist, | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a | :37:53. | :38:01. | |
party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
integration agenda. Banning | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
the burka and physically checking children for female | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
genital mutilation. If we don't really do something | :38:24. | :38:24. | |
about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
further but also suspects The party chairman says | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution, | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
including the screening process | :38:36. | :38:51. | |
for its leadership candidates conducted | :38:52. | :38:52. | |
by an external vetting company. But like the old boss, | :38:53. | :38:53. | |
he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
is a process where people can I'm talking about the process | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party, | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
its history, and protect its future. We have always been | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
about being for something, we are not against something, | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
particular candidate. But it has got senior | :39:15. | :39:15. | |
party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me | :39:16. | :39:17. | |
the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
said there would be mass The deadline for leadership | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field, | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
the most rancorous contest the party had ever had, | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
more professional on their current | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
trajectory, then they will on their current | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically, | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
get your act together, Whatever the direction | :40:04. | :40:05. | |
the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think | :40:06. | :40:15. | |
the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers | :40:16. | :40:26. | |
in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes, | :40:27. | :40:36. | |
we'll be talking about what's next First though, the Sunday | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
Politics where you are. Hello and welcome, ladies | :40:42. | :40:54. | |
and gentlemen, to the London I'm joined for the duration | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
by Chris Philp, Conservative MP for Croydon South and by Neil Coyle, | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
Labour MP for Bermondsey did you know that once a year | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
you can go into your local council We caught up with some armchair | :41:04. | :41:14. | |
auditors who did just that that in Lambeth and found out | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
what they discovered. I want to start by getting | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
your take on the latest developments in the fallout | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
from the Grenfell Tower fire. Earlier this morning Andrew Marr | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
spoke to John McDonnell about his use of the phrase social murder to | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
describe what happened at the Tower, would you say that term is fair to | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
describe what happened? There are families still in shock about what | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
happened. There were clearly falls in the materials were used so those | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
people who must and will be held responsible for what happened and we | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
must look at the building regulations and find a way to make | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
sure this can never happen again. Isn't that kind of evocative | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
language helpful? If it results in the Government taking action it has | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
so far failed to do in retrofitting of sprinklers in tower blocks like | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
Southwark, there are multiple tall buildings where people are more | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
nervous now and would like to see their homes made safer and would | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
like the Government to commit to doing that so it's shining a light | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
on an important issue. Do you know which think of the left popularised | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the term social murder? Friedrich Engels. Do you think the fact | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
Rebecca Long-Bailey and John McDonnell are using that kind of | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
language suggests they occupy a wing of the party that uses the rhetoric | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
you are not comfortable with? They are using that language because they | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
wish to focus on the family 's who lost loved ones, and they are | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
representing thousands of families across the country who are more | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
nervous about their homes. They don't see sufficient action from the | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
Government, they are worried building regulations are being | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
abused or ignored for years and they are worried about their homes. | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
Chris, do you think that's the right kind of language to be using? No, if | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
we want to look after the victims of this fire and make sure it never | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
happens again, because quite clearly it should never have happened in | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
21st-century Britain, we must make sure it never happens again. The way | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
we do that is not by using inflammatory words like social | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
murder, we do that by having a full and proper investigation and wait | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
and see what happens after that. There is a police investigation | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
going on sale if anyone is guilty of manslaughter or murder, we will find | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
out in due course. There will be an early interim report so lessons can | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
happen quickly rather than after a year or two. That's the way this | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
should happen, not by scoring some cheap political points so I call on | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
everyone to get behind the inquiries and make sure whatever they find we | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
take action. If there is any criminal liability like manslaughter | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
or murder, the police will find out and organisations will be held | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
responsible. But that wait and see point isn't good enough for people | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
who are desperate to feel more secure in their homes. If you are | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
living on the 22nd floor and you are nervous the Government is not | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
retrofitting sprinklers, that issue can be resolved aside from the | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
investigation, the longer inquiry into Grenfell Tower. And not saying | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
do nothing, and within days of that terrible fire the establishment | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
started testing hundreds of samples and in some cases evacuations took | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
place as a result so of course we need instant action and I accept | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
that. So when will the Government provide the funding for retrofit | :44:54. | :45:02. | |
sprinklers? Where Fire Services said retrofit sprinklers were required | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
and if the authorities didn't have money to do it, the Government | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
committed to helping out. The Government has said if the council | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
cannot afford to do essential work the Government will step in and | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
help. The question for you is whether, clearly you want action to | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
be taken, but is this kind of rhetoric actually useful in | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
addressing the underlying problems or does it get in the way? Lots of | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
people say we need a measured response and calling this horrific | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
tragedy a social murder doesn't help. | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
I'll be honest it is not language I would use but if it gets people | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
security to carry on living in their homes, that is the most important | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
part of this. The idea that there will be this fair assessment of | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
council resources to retrofit by a government which has cut council | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
budgets by 40%, it worries me. We need that money up front and not | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
some sort of fake assessment. This 40% cut figure is not a real figure. | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
I can see you two will get on, this is fantastic at max we will come | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
back to Grenfell again in the show. Thank you for now. | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
The capital is now seeing more than one acid attack every day, | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
causing life-changing injuries to its victims. | :46:25. | :46:25. | |
The increase in attacks has led to its rise up the political agenda, | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
and on Monday MPs will debate what can be done | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
There are some flashing images in Raphael Sheridan's report. | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
On Thursday, Londoners were shocked by a spate of acid attacks, | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
Two teenage males have since been arrested. | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
It's a rising phenomenon in the capital. | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
There were over 450 victims last year according to Met figures, | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
double the number in 2015, and it's especially | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
Once almost solely associated with so-called honour violence, | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
it's becoming increasingly widespread as criminal gangs | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
are thought to be switching from knives to acid. | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
It's easier to buy and not a crime to carry. | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
East Ham MP Stephen Timms is clear about what he wants to see happen. | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
I'd like the Minister to confirm on Monday that the possession | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
of acid will be an offence in the future in exactly the same | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
way that possession of a knife is an offence today. | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
I'd like the law to be changed so that sulphuric acid will only be | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
He will be leading a debate about this in Parliament tomorrow | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
in light of today's comments from the Home Secretary, | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
who's warned future attackers they face life behind bars. | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
Many Londoners will no doubt be anxious to see what MPs can do | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
I'm joined by Rabina Khan, an independent councillor | :47:46. | :47:54. | |
on Tower Hamlets council who has written on the subject. | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
Thank you for coming in. Why are these acid attacks so sharply | :48:01. | :48:09. | |
rising? I think we need to put some context to this. Acid attacks have | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
been prevalent in this country and they happen across the world as | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
well. They disproportionately affect women. Researchers showed in the | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
last ten years hospital ad missions have doubled because of acid | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
attacks. While we're having this debate and a quarter legislation, | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
why so late in the day? These are the questions which need to be | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
asked. But they have massively increased. Whether you go by | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
financial years or not, in 2016 there were 398 against 317 before. | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
In 2017 there were 452 attacks. They are rising sharply. Are they rising | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
or is there better resources for people reporting as well? They're | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
definitely has been a spike in the increase but I want to talk about | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
the underreporting. The under reporting about many victims who | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
feel they may face reprise all. I am dealing with a case of a woman and | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
her son in Tower Hamlets who faced an acid attack back in November 20 | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
16. They do not want to come to the media | :49:13. | :49:24. | |
because they are afraid of reprisals. We need support for | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
victims to have the ability to report. There is a narrative in the | :49:28. | :49:29. | |
media that this is prevalent in parts of the South Asian community | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
and it is associated with an retribution, that women are attacked | :49:33. | :49:33. | |
because they have behaved dishonourably. For people who find | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
that thinking disgusting and don't understand it, what would be the | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
thinking behind those parts of communities? In Bangladesh there are | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
over 3500 acid attacks which have taken place. It happens in India and | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
Afghanistan and this country. This has been in Britain for a long time. | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
The fact we are now having this debate, the fact we are trying to | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
change legislation, acid attacks are prevalent in certain communities and | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
there is an agenda behind it. It is a terrorism agenda, trying to | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
control a woman in that way. But the new context to acid attacks is the | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
dimensions and debate around it have changed. We have gang members who | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
think it is easier to carry a weapon of choice which is acid. It is | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
easier to carry the acid than a knife, because it is an offensive | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
crime if you carry a knife. It is easier to disguise acid because you | :50:27. | :50:38. | |
can carry it around a bottle. Just picking up on what Rabina Khan has | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
said, why has it taken until now for the debate to be held about the shop | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
rising attacks? As you said, it has doubled recently. Injuring someone | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
with acid is already a criminal offence. You can get up to a life | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
sentence for carrying acid already and carrying it with intent has a | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
sentence of up to four years under the current law. But I must agree | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
with what Stephen Timms said. Effectively, acid is being used as a | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
weapon like a knife and in my view, it should be treated as an | :51:10. | :51:20. | |
equivalent. Merely carrying the worst kinds of acid like sulphuric | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
acid and hydrochloric acid, I think there is a case of simply carrying | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
that in public and offence in itself as it is with a knife already. It is | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
a criminal intent to carry acid with intent but you do not need a license | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
to buy it. Should you need a licence? I think for the most | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
powerful kinds of acid there is a strong case for doing that and we | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
will debate it in Parliament tomorrow. You cannot say you need | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
hydrochloric or sulphuric acid around the home. Clearly, it is | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
industrial or chemical. Will you be in Parliament tomorrow? Gas, and | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
what concerns me is whether the law has changed and whether the police | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
have the resources to do it. This tie was gifted to me by the mother | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
of a 15-year-old murdered in a knife attack. We see 80% of knife crimes | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
go an prosecuted. If we have the same position with acid attacks and | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
80% of criminals going unpunished, we are not solving anything. Does it | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
strike you as bizarre that we can have guidelines for knife attacks | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
but we do not have any more for knife attacks, while as Rabina Khan | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
has been arguing, it has been rising sharply for many years. Needs to | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
move up the agenda. The other link here is the gangs are using it. The | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
recent spate in north London was around my bed crime. People stealing | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
mopeds by using acid on the mopeds driver and then using their mopeds | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
to commit other crimes, in particular mobile phone thefts. The | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
police say they do not have the means to tackle this. There are 2500 | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
mopeds thefts of mobile phones in the last month. Police do not have | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
the resources to tackle that and they say they should not chase some | :53:06. | :53:13. | |
mopeds drivers because of their safety. Is there a case that if | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
licences are required for the carrying of acid, that people will | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
end up buying it online instead?... We need to have the regulations and | :53:26. | :53:33. | |
monitor who is purchasing it. It is very EEC for young people to access | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
or certain members of our communities to access sulphuric | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
acid. My problem is while we are having the debate about changing the | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
legislation we are not talking about supporting the victims here. How | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
would you like to do that? The intent about using acid, it is not | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
about trying to kill, it is about to inflict humiliation. Permanent human | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
relation. When acid is used, it melts the face and not the skin. The | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
damage that is caused is very long-term. Katie Piper, whose face | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
was rebuilt, the doctor has commented that the acid attacks are | :54:16. | :54:23. | |
used to inflict painful sense of humiliation on the self, the | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
identity, so the psychological and emotional support needs to be in | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
place for victims. Some victims have had to endure 20 operations just to | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
be able to breathe and come out in society. Has the Home Secretary | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
Amber Rudd got it right when she said we need to look at life | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
sentences? She needs to go further. The Home Office do not collect data | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
on acid. The police need to be supportive and the support | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
organisations who support victims of acid attacks also need to be | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
supported. A final word on that? This is a terribly important issue. | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
It ruins people's lives, it is deeply disturbing that it is on the | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
rise and we do need to take action to halt it. Thank you for coming in. | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
Depending on who you want to believe, councils are either | :55:20. | :55:21. | |
cesspits of profligacy and waste or the cash-strapped victims | :55:22. | :55:23. | |
But thanks to new powers, you, the public can now do something | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
Since 2015, town halls have had to open up their accounts to the public | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
for 30 days ever year, but in Lambeth one groups' attempts | :55:33. | :55:34. | |
to use the powers is proving highly controversial. | :55:35. | :55:36. | |
We went and spoke to that resident and said, can | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
Meet the armchair auditors, Lambeth citizens armed | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
with a spreadsheet and determined to shake things up at the Town Hall. | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
It really started as a result that I lived next door to this estate | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
and there was talk about it potentially being demolished because | :55:53. | :55:54. | |
I read about this piece of legislation via a book called | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
the Silent Estate by Heather Brooke which allows people | :56:04. | :56:05. | |
to audit their accounts, and decided to give it a go really. | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
So Simon decided to rally the troops. | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
People like Tom here who live on the estate. | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
We notified Lambeth of the issues and they still | :56:15. | :56:16. | |
The result was a document they called the Lambeth People's Audit, | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
which they allege has uncovered financial mismanagement | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
Much of their work focuses on housing and repairs. | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
So just now the People's Audit wants to show us around the estate, | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
show some of the issues that there have been with repairs, | :56:35. | :56:36. | |
with drainpipes, where there has been a fire risk, | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
Unfortunately though, someone from Lambeth Council stopped | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
They said the estate regeneration is so sensitive that | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
television cameras are not allowed to film at all. | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
So instead, here are some photos that they took earlier. | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
One main claim in the People's Audit was the council took ?1 million | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
from the pot of money the council ring-fenced for council housing, | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
and rather than investing it in repairs, they spent it on doing | :57:05. | :57:06. | |
The council say that, in their words, is fake news. | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
The money is paying the town hall staff who work on housing. | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
If you had a housing office on an estate, | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
you would expect that to be paid for from the HRA because it's part | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
If you put those people in another building they're | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
sharing with other people, obviously, the costs are going | :57:27. | :57:28. | |
You'd still expect that to be paid from the HRA. | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
In fact, the council say the Lambeth People's Audit is not | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
It's being presented as something else, which is really a shame | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
because I do think the legislation, which lets people go in, | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
look at a council's accounts, see exactly how the council | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
is spending their money, is a really good thing. | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
But in this instance, I'm afraid it has been hijacked | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
by professional politicians who until very recently, | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
I think there are questions to be asked about why they have | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
So we put Lambeth Council's words to the People's Audit. | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
The People's Audit is a collection of senior politicians | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
from the Liberal Democrats and the Greens. | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
I've never been a member of a political party in my life. | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
Don't particularly have an intention of joining one. | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
Some of the members are actively involved in politics | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
This is George Turner, a former Lib Dem parliamentary | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
There are people involved who are from the Green Party, | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
people involved who are not a member of any party at all, | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
and I think there might even be a few Labour Party members. | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
I don't know what the party affiliation of people | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
involved in the group are, because it's not a concern to us. | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
Chris Holt has worked for the Greens. | :58:51. | :58:52. | |
It's all very well for Lambeth Labour to attack the people | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
We just want them to answer the questions. | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
It doesn't matter who's asking them, just answer the questions | :59:02. | :59:03. | |
and hopefully, we can all be satisfied. | :59:04. | :59:05. | |
But to avoid misunderstanding, does there need to be more | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
transparency on the half of the new armchair auditors, | :59:09. | :59:10. | |
It's really important though that we know who's | :59:11. | :59:24. | |
doing this sort of work, that they are as transparent | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
as they are demanding of the local authority, and that there are clear | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
parameters of how they present their information, so people can | :59:31. | :59:32. | |
Under the new rules, every council has to open up | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
Most London local authorities do it in the summer. | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
So if you fancy joining the ranks of the armchair auditors, | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
you are an MP may bring Lambeth. Would you welcome this action? I do | :59:43. | :00:01. | |
think there are areas where transparency needs to be greater. | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
For example, leaseholder charges for major works programmes is something | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
which continually comes up for concerns, along with planning law | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
and how the people are involved. Is the principle of opening up your | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
accounts to citizens for 30 days a good one, because you believe in | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
transparency, or a potentially dangerous one, because it will end | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
up being captured by political organisations? | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
There shouldn't be any problem opening up accounts, whether that's | :00:38. | :00:46. | |
by an alternative political party. I think in one but it is unfortunate | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
that appears to be opponents of the council leading part of the audit. | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
That is contested, it is worth saying... If we just looked at this | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
through what needs to be in the public domain, routinely, not just | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
for 30 days in the summer but routinely made available. What's the | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
point of this legislation if there is controversy over it and nothing | :01:16. | :01:24. | |
really happens? The council says we don't accept your conclusions and | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
that's that. I think it's a brilliant initiative. Openness and | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
transparency is the beating heart of our democracy. The people in Lambeth | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
appear to be independent, but with a few political activist as well. I | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
will be encouraging people in Croydon to start doing the same | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
things now. Clearly the National Audit Office has overall | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
responsibility for local government audit so if the National Audit | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Office sees anything in this report, they should follow it up. The | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
biggest element of accountability comes in May next year with the | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
local council elections and if people decide their council has done | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
a bad job, paying for repairs that were never done, paying twice as | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
much as they should have done for repairs, spending money on the town | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
hall instead of tenants, they have an opportunity to kick out the | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
council next May and that's the ultimate sanction we have in a | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
democracy, the ballot box. It is very easy to get into administrative | :02:26. | :02:34. | |
bashing, but I think councils are having to be much more focused on | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
how they spend money, much more innovative in their partnership | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
working. But actually fundamentally councils don't have the resources to | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
deliver the services. You said the budgets have been cut by 40% and | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
that's not correct because the business retention has replaced | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
that, leaving them broadly speaking flat. Councils should not be | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
complaining about funding when they are paying for repairs that have | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
never been carried out. Was it a good idea to scrap the audit | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
commission in 2011 and make councils like number audited by... I think it | :03:13. | :03:24. | |
has been damaged in how it can do its job. I don't agree, we have the | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
National Audit Office overseeing it, it is wasteful duplication and I'm | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
glad we streamlined it. You are fantastic double act. Thank you for | :03:36. | :03:36. | |
coming in. My thanks to my guests | :03:37. | :03:37. | |
Neil Coyle and to Chris Philp, This is the last Sunday Politics | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
before Parliament breaks up for the summer recess, and most MPs could | :03:42. | :03:53. | |
definitely do with some time away from the political hothouse at | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
Westminster. But when they come back | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
in September, both the Conservatives and Labour face some big questions | :03:59. | :04:00. | |
over how to win an overall majority We'll talk about that in a moment, | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
but first let's have a look at what's been happening to Theresa May | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
and Jeremy Corbyn since polling day And what we are saying is the | :04:10. | :04:26. | |
Conservatives are the largest party. Note they don't have an overall | :04:27. | :04:27. | |
majority at this stage. She who dares doesn't always win. | :04:28. | :04:44. | |
Now let's get to work. The party that has lost in this election is | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
the Conservative Party. The arguments they put forward in this | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
election have lost. I think we need a change. That's not quite true, | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
Labour is a party that lost. The Government failed and her coming | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
over here to try to speak to... Who? Who do you want to speak to you had | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
your chance. Now everyone will go angry and crazy. | :05:14. | :05:23. | |
I think the public will want us to get the broadest possible consensus | :05:24. | :05:50. | |
in looking at those issues. If the Prime Minister would like it, I am | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
happy to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto. | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
You are now playing for Arsenal! The comments we were getting back that | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
were passed on to me were that we were going to get a better results | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
than we did. Devastated enough to shed a tear? Yes, a little tear at | :06:11. | :06:23. | |
that moment, yes. Let's start with Mrs May. Another | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
day, another leadership rumour, challenge. She is tired, she wants | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
to fight on, she doesn't. Is this corrosive to her leadership? Hugely | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
corrosive. My estimation of what's really going on in the party, and | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
Tory MPs in Westminster, is the vast majority and by that I mean probably | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
around 300 don't want a contest. They want her to stay and finish | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
Brexit, see it through, because of the incredible Pandora's box that | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
would open. Who's putting these incredible column inches in the | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
papers? They are giant egos, they have been at this for several years | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
if not decades and they are keen to manoeuvre themselves into the | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
position to be the leader. In their own interests? Because most Tories I | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
speak to think the risk of another leadership election is horrendous | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
for them because they fear it could lead to a general election and they | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
will lose. The ones you are talking about, they put their own | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
self-interest above the interest of their party. Without a doubt. They | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
are funny bunch, we know them very well, but they are simply incapable | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
of putting their own interests underneath those of the country. The | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
problem for Mrs May is this won't stop. They are going to carry on | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
doing this I think unless she says something about her own leadership | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
and conference is the time to do it. She needs to spell out a timetable | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
for herself, when she will stay and go. She almost did that, didn't she, | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
in her interview with you. She came very close. I agree with almost | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
everything Thomas said, but those on the backbenches who don't want a | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
leadership contest, it's not purely for the good of the country, there | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
is self-interest there too and that is because they are eyeing up the | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
top job and they need a few years to build up a following. My view is | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
people like Boris Johnson 's and Amber Rudd for their own reasons | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
think they stand a better chance once Brexit is done. At the moment | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
Mr Johnson too toxic for the Remainers, Amber Rudd too toxic for | :08:54. | :09:04. | |
the Leavers. Last time Mrs May went walking in the hills, in Wales, she | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
came back and called an election. She's about to go walking in the | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
Swiss mountains I understand in the weeks ahead for a break. Is there | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
any chance she comes back and says I'm not going on with this? No | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
because although I think being a human being she will be deeply | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
traumatised by what's happened, and it will probably hit her more | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
intensely when she moves away for a few days from the cocoon drama of | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
the whole situation, you just have to keep going and she will be | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
walking and thinking what have I done? But she is clearly trying to | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
hold on and she's built up a new Number Ten. Almost an entire new | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
personnel in there. She's brought Damian Green in as a deputy so | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
there's no sign she plans to go in the short-term but leadership is | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
partly about a spell on us and her ministers. The fact that her | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
ministers, even in her interview when she was being robust in two | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
years, they know that she won't fight part of the next election | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
which means part of the spell has gone. When Tony Blair gave a date | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
for his departure, you could feel the power losing away from him. The | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
fact that assumption is there means this feverish speculation will carry | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
on until she goes. Let me come on to Mr Corbyn who would seem to be in a | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
much better position after the election. What does he now do | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
though? Because if you cannot provoke an election quite quickly, | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
you never know how long your day in the sun will be. But he does have a | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
mission or he and the people around him, they want to take control of | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
those parts of the Labour Party they don't already take control, and they | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
will probably do it. Absolutely, so Jeremy Corbyn has established he's a | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
very good campaigner. Everybody now agrees on that. Look at the clip, he | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
now dresses in a white shirt and a dark suit, and he actually looks I | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
won't say Prime Minister Arial but like he could possibly lead the | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
whole country. -- prime ministerial. But the whole thing is built on | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
protests, there isn't a fully established policy set up where he | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
is ready to take over the Government if this election comes. The | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
challenge for him is to turn the huge generation of support he's got | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
over protest into the ability to govern. You heard from Rebecca | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
Long-Bailey on Brexit alone, the party now admitting their policy is | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
cake and eat it, that is not electorally satisfying. Final word | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
from Isabel. The fact is Mr Corbyn has been a transformative figure for | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
the Labour Party. If and when he goes, it's not going back to normal. | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
It is transformative for the Labour Party and the country. I disagree | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
with Tom, they put forward a more detailed programme than the | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
Conservatives at the election and be costed it to some extent. I think to | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
be facing two weighs on Brexit is the only place for a Leader of the | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
Opposition to beat and he has been smart on that. Tony Blair when he | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
was a leader faced to microwaves on single currency, outside of | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
Parliament he seemed be more robust, but he's played it very smart. All I | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
would say is for Brexiteers we want more Tony Blair saying it won't | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
happen. You think he's such a toxic figure that whatever side he | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
supports damages that side? Absolutely, yes. As a leader of an | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
opposition party you cannot advance things. All right, we will have to | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
leave it there. Enjoy your summer. That's all for today, and that's | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
all from us until September. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
it's the Sunday Politics - unless it's parliament's summer | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
recess. But for me it is thank you and | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
goodbye. When I think of the world | :13:21. | :13:56. | |
we inhabit, everyone will think, When I think of the world | :13:57. | :13:56. | |
we inhabit, everyone will think, Yeah. And it wasn't, | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
it was done by hand over days and weeks | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
and months and years. It was always | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
a very, very deep love affair between this incredible, | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
wonderful, glorious music and that's why we merged | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
with the Liberals. ordinary people can make | :14:17. | :14:26. | |
a big difference. | :14:27. | :14:30. |