16/07/2017 Sunday Politics London


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16/07/2017

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan are joined by Liam Fox and Rebecca Long-Bailey. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:42.

With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling

:00:43.:00:45.

onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international

:00:46.:00:48.

trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future

:00:49.:00:50.

Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out

:00:51.:00:58.

Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own

:00:59.:01:01.

divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear

:01:02.:01:03.

And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more

:01:04.:01:07.

hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,

:01:08.:01:09.

If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti

:01:10.:01:17.

the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.

:01:18.:01:26.

In London - once a year you can visit your local council

:01:27.:01:28.

So what happened when armchair auditors in Lambeth did just that?

:01:29.:01:45.

Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it

:01:46.:01:48.

by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed

:01:49.:01:50.

And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've

:01:51.:01:54.

won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.

:01:55.:01:59.

It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.

:02:00.:02:09.

First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting

:02:10.:02:11.

of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,

:02:12.:02:14.

most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.

:02:15.:02:16.

Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may

:02:17.:02:20.

not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times

:02:21.:02:24.

says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers

:02:25.:02:28.

as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.

:02:29.:02:31.

Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,

:02:32.:02:33.

and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source

:02:34.:02:36.

of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.

:02:37.:02:42.

If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people

:02:43.:02:45.

who are not happy with the agenda that I have,

:02:46.:02:48.

tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit

:02:49.:02:57.

which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting

:02:58.:03:01.

our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living

:03:02.:03:04.

So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being

:03:05.:03:17.

undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's

:03:18.:03:21.

quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely

:03:22.:03:28.

true. That's the least controversial part of it! The briefing is his

:03:29.:03:35.

position on Brexit and also frustration on his position over

:03:36.:03:37.

public sector pay then it is over any kind of leadership manoeuvrings.

:03:38.:03:42.

We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that he was doubling down on the issue of

:03:43.:03:49.

public sector pay rises. He didn't categorically deny using the words

:03:50.:03:52.

of overpaid, in fact he reiterated the fact he sees them as whether

:03:53.:03:59.

they are overpaid or not so I believe he did use that phrase but

:04:00.:04:02.

clearly he's got the tone wrong and I don't think he's done himself any

:04:03.:04:08.

favours. He's a pretty wealthy man himself, multimillionaire. He must

:04:09.:04:15.

have some kind of political deafness if he thinks it's OK for someone in

:04:16.:04:21.

his position to say, in a number of cases, lowly paid public sector

:04:22.:04:26.

workers are overpaid? I think he is politically deaf, and not

:04:27.:04:30.

emotionally intelligent. He has a great head for figures but very poor

:04:31.:04:42.

at expressing himself. It was a crass remark over women train

:04:43.:04:55.

drivers. He may be in the right place on some arguments, he's just

:04:56.:04:59.

extremely poor at expressing and that's what gives his opponents the

:05:00.:05:04.

chance to rip his head off. He should have worked out by now that

:05:05.:05:10.

it is clear whatever... Because of the dim munition of Mrs May's

:05:11.:05:13.

authority that whatever you see in the Cabinet now is likely to become

:05:14.:05:18.

public in some shape or form. I think this is the profound lesson of

:05:19.:05:22.

the story, that Cabinet discussion is almost impossible now, and

:05:23.:05:28.

Hammond will go away this summer thinking I can't engage in a proper

:05:29.:05:32.

debate in Cabinet because they will leak it. It sounds as if they were

:05:33.:05:36.

having quite a grown-up conversation about public sector pay with a

:05:37.:05:40.

spending department ministers putting the case for breaking the

:05:41.:05:44.

cup and Hammond saying from the Treasury perspective this is what's

:05:45.:05:48.

happening. Which is what normally happens in Cabinet. He would hope

:05:49.:05:54.

so, not any more. He won't be able to speak his mind in Cabinet because

:05:55.:05:58.

he knows it will be leaked and that is another sign of fragility of this

:05:59.:06:02.

Government, when you cannot have a grown-up discussion about public

:06:03.:06:06.

sector pay even in Cabinet, and that means Cabinet discussion which is

:06:07.:06:09.

urgently needed on Brexit and the rest of it cannot happen in an open

:06:10.:06:16.

way because leaking is happening. Mrs May is not exactly top of the

:06:17.:06:20.

Pops with her own party at the moment but doesn't help her in the

:06:21.:06:25.

fact that her Chancellor is even less top of the Pops? The key thing

:06:26.:06:30.

is that backbenchers don't want a leadership contest at the moment.

:06:31.:06:34.

There are a number of Cabinet ministers or more senior figures who

:06:35.:06:38.

have been around longer who may feel this is their last chance of the

:06:39.:06:42.

leadership and they are urgently wanting it happen now. Backbenchers

:06:43.:06:48.

don't want it, I don't think it will happen. Will it happen? I don't

:06:49.:06:54.

think it will. There are egos clashing in the Cabinet and also

:06:55.:07:02.

many who just want things to stay the way they are, so they will. We

:07:03.:07:05.

will talk more about this leadership matter later in the programme, but

:07:06.:07:06.

let's move on. This week the government passed

:07:07.:07:08.

another Brexit milestone when in introduced the Repeal Bill

:07:09.:07:09.

to the Commons. It will incorporate all EU law

:07:10.:07:11.

into the UK's domestic And although a vote on the Bill

:07:12.:07:14.

isn't due until the autumn, the government still has plenty

:07:15.:07:18.

on its plate when it Brexit secretary David Davis

:07:19.:07:20.

and the EU's negotiator Michel Barnier will sit down

:07:21.:07:23.

for another helping of Brexit negotiations in Brussels

:07:24.:07:25.

this week. Progress now needs to be made

:07:26.:07:27.

on some big questions. They include: the rights of EU

:07:28.:07:31.

citizens living here, How to maintain an open border

:07:32.:07:33.

between Northern Ireland And the size of the financial

:07:34.:07:40.

settlement or so-called divorce bill Previous estimates have included a

:07:41.:07:45.

figure of The British government has put no

:07:46.:07:52.

figure on it, simply saying it This week, Foreign Secretary

:07:53.:07:58.

Boris Johnson said the EU could "go whistle" if it was

:07:59.:08:04.

expecting an extortionate fee Brussels wants this set

:08:05.:08:06.

of negotiations focusing on the principles of separation

:08:07.:08:19.

to be done by the end of the year. They can then turn to the main

:08:20.:08:22.

event, the future trading relationship between the UK

:08:23.:08:25.

and the EU. While the UK remains a member

:08:26.:08:27.

of the EU customs union, it cannot But it can hold advanced discussions

:08:28.:08:30.

with other countries. This week, Australian Prime Minister

:08:31.:08:34.

Malcolm Turnbull said his country was very keen for a deal

:08:35.:08:36.

as quickly as possible. And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump

:08:37.:08:41.

said he wanted to sign a very powerful UK-US trade

:08:42.:08:45.

deal very quickly. But as trade deals normally

:08:46.:08:50.

take years to negotiate, it is unclear when the first ones

:08:51.:08:53.

will be ready for post-Brexit So there will be plenty

:08:54.:08:56.

for both sides to digest, as negotiations continue

:08:57.:09:01.

over the summer. I'm joined

:09:02.:09:09.

by the International Trade Your brief is to agree new free

:09:10.:09:19.

trade deals but you cannot sign any until Brexit is done, can you even

:09:20.:09:24.

begin proper negotiations this side of Brexit or is that illegal too? We

:09:25.:09:30.

cannot negotiate and conclude a trade agreement but we can scope

:09:31.:09:37.

them out. We can get our preparatory work done. We have got ten working

:09:38.:09:41.

groups established across the world with countries from Korea to the

:09:42.:09:46.

United States to Australia. I know scoping the out is fine, you can

:09:47.:09:50.

talk about trade but you cannot begin formal trade negotiations

:09:51.:09:55.

until after Brexit. No, but we have trade working agreements. Free trade

:09:56.:09:59.

agreements are not the only thing that are in the mix as it were, they

:10:00.:10:05.

are what people think about but we also have mutual recognition

:10:06.:10:09.

agreements where we can reduce some of the barriers to trade, the

:10:10.:10:14.

technical barriers, in that process. We have a number of other things

:10:15.:10:18.

going on. We have got to get our trading schedules in Switzerland and

:10:19.:10:23.

Geneva and the World Trade Organisation organised. We then have

:10:24.:10:28.

40 EU free trade agreements and we have to get them ready because if we

:10:29.:10:32.

were not to negotiate those and be ready on the first day of Brexit,

:10:33.:10:37.

there would be huge market disruption. Although you can clearly

:10:38.:10:41.

do a lot of technical work and you can talk till the cows come home,

:10:42.:10:47.

there will be no free trade deals on the shelf ready to sign come March

:10:48.:10:54.

2019 when we are leaving the EU, that's correct isn't it? Technically

:10:55.:11:02.

there will be new ones... There will be no free trade deals ready to say

:11:03.:11:07.

right, we are out, here is a deal I have baked earlier. Not right away

:11:08.:11:11.

because we are not permitted to do that as part of our membership of

:11:12.:11:15.

the European Union and one of the things I want to get is greater

:11:16.:11:19.

freedom to be able to negotiate on behalf of the UK. That's not

:11:20.:11:23.

possible when you are inside the customs union. There's much talk of

:11:24.:11:30.

a transition after 2019. You told Bloomberg you didn't mind a few

:11:31.:11:33.

months, the Chancellor this morning said it would be a couple of years.

:11:34.:11:40.

What is it? The key thing is why would you have a transitional

:11:41.:11:42.

arrangements, how long would it be and what would the conditions be.

:11:43.:11:48.

For me first we have to leave the European Union in March 2019 so

:11:49.:11:53.

there can be no case of extending EU membership. At that point as a third

:11:54.:12:00.

country we can have a transition agreement which keeps as little

:12:01.:12:03.

disruption as possible but it has to have an end date. You said a few

:12:04.:12:08.

months, the Chancellor said a few years, why the difference? As the

:12:09.:12:12.

Chancellor said, it is more a technical argument, because for

:12:13.:12:17.

example how do we get new border equipment in place, how do we get

:12:18.:12:21.

the arrangements for immigration put in place, but for me, you know, I've

:12:22.:12:26.

waited a long time and campaigned long time to leave the European

:12:27.:12:32.

Union. As long as we leave in March 2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a

:12:33.:12:36.

time-limited transitional period to make it work for business. The

:12:37.:12:39.

Chancellor doesn't deny the transition could take up four years.

:12:40.:12:45.

The Brexit Secretary David Davis says it could be a maximum of three

:12:46.:12:51.

years, you are talking months. Shouldn't you sort this out around

:12:52.:12:54.

the Cabinet table instead of all three of you sending mixed messages?

:12:55.:13:02.

We are dependent on for example what HMRC Tal us, how investment is

:13:03.:13:06.

going. It's also a question of negotiating with our European

:13:07.:13:10.

partners. We know what's involved, why are you sending out these mixed

:13:11.:13:16.

messages? I don't have a problem with the transition period as long

:13:17.:13:20.

as it is time-limited. It is not just the time, it is the conditions.

:13:21.:13:25.

I want in the transitional period to be able to negotiate agreements at

:13:26.:13:30.

that point. We cannot have a putting off over the freedom to negotiate

:13:31.:13:34.

trade agreements. At the moment is it clear you would be able to sign

:13:35.:13:41.

any free trade deals during a transition period? No, that's to be

:13:42.:13:49.

negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr Davies is right, up to three or four

:13:50.:13:54.

years, it could be 2021 before you get to sign a free trade deal. We

:13:55.:14:00.

don't now how long any would take to negotiate. They don't happen

:14:01.:14:05.

overnight. Would you even be able to negotiate during a transition

:14:06.:14:10.

period? I would hope so, that is one of the conditions we might set. It

:14:11.:14:14.

is certainly something I would want to see because otherwise it makes it

:14:15.:14:17.

much more difficult to take advantage of the opportunities that

:14:18.:14:22.

Brexit itself would produce. Your ink will run dry before you get to

:14:23.:14:26.

sign one of these agreements. We have a huge amount to do and it's

:14:27.:14:33.

not just at the free trade agreement level. We have for example what we

:14:34.:14:37.

get at the World Trade Organisation because the real game for the UK is

:14:38.:14:41.

to get a global liberalisation in the services sector -- the real

:14:42.:14:49.

gain. And I want to come onto that in a minute but before do, are you

:14:50.:14:55.

group of the Cabinet ministers that seems to regularly be briefing

:14:56.:14:59.

against Philip Hammond? No, I deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I

:15:00.:15:05.

think my colleagues should be quiet, stick to their duties, and I expect

:15:06.:15:12.

discipline to be effective. The only people smiling that this will be

:15:13.:15:18.

people in Berlin and Paris. Why are people doing it? The need to have

:15:19.:15:26.

less prosecco. They don't trust Philip Hammond, do they? I don't

:15:27.:15:31.

think that is true. I read in the press we have very different views,

:15:32.:15:35.

in fact our views are very similar on things like transition. I don't

:15:36.:15:39.

know where it is coming from but I think it should stop.

:15:40.:15:46.

But it is happening? It is happening and I think it undermines the

:15:47.:15:52.

position of the government. We do not need an interim leader or an

:15:53.:15:56.

alternative leader. We have a very good competent leader in Theresa

:15:57.:16:03.

May. But he thinks it is being done by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know

:16:04.:16:07.

who is doing it and they should stop. Let's come back to the tariff

:16:08.:16:13.

free trade. There is much talk about that. The Chancellor says much of

:16:14.:16:17.

our trade with the world is in services and free trade deals won't

:16:18.:16:21.

make any particular difference. Do you agree with him? They can make a

:16:22.:16:27.

difference. It has been estimated with the OECD that free trade deals

:16:28.:16:32.

with the United States could add ?42 billion to our bilateral trade by

:16:33.:16:39.

2030. There is a game to be made. In an economy like the UK which is 80%

:16:40.:16:43.

services, what we would benefit from is a range of global liberalisation.

:16:44.:16:48.

One example is data. We have an economy where we talk about freedom

:16:49.:16:52.

of movement of goods and services, but you also have to have the

:16:53.:16:56.

freedom of movement of data. One thing I would like the UK to lead on

:16:57.:17:02.

is to look to a global agreement on that. But the talks have come to an

:17:03.:17:08.

end. There is no great global movement. That is not true. We have

:17:09.:17:14.

just had a multilateral agreement, the trade facilitation was signed

:17:15.:17:18.

this year which seeks to diminish friction at customs around the world

:17:19.:17:22.

and will add 70 billion to the economy. But it leaves plenty of

:17:23.:17:27.

nontariff barriers in place. The moment you start to talk about these

:17:28.:17:30.

complicated rules and regulations that hinder services, it does not

:17:31.:17:35.

make free trade deals impossible, it makes them much more on placated and

:17:36.:17:41.

prolonged to do. Correct? You need to look at what is happening in the

:17:42.:17:47.

global economy. According to the OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20

:17:48.:17:53.

countries were operating about 300 nontariff barriers. By the end of

:17:54.:17:57.

2015, they were operating nearly three times that number. The silting

:17:58.:18:02.

up of growth and global trade is being done by the global economy. We

:18:03.:18:06.

need to be looking at how we can remove some of those barriers,

:18:07.:18:11.

because otherwise our prosperity becomes limited. Is it still your

:18:12.:18:15.

view that no deal would be better than a bad deal? Anyone who goes

:18:16.:18:21.

into that negotiation without that is foolish. We will not accept any

:18:22.:18:26.

deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the

:18:27.:18:30.

referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal

:18:31.:18:35.

rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no

:18:36.:18:41.

deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we

:18:42.:18:46.

have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I

:18:47.:18:50.

think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very

:18:51.:18:56.

important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.

:18:57.:18:59.

Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away

:19:00.:19:03.

rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did

:19:04.:19:08.

not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree

:19:09.:19:23.

with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do

:19:24.:19:28.

not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to

:19:29.:19:32.

accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with

:19:33.:19:35.

have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and

:19:36.:19:39.

say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go

:19:40.:19:44.

into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government

:19:45.:19:49.

is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday

:19:50.:19:56.

newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this

:19:57.:19:59.

morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --

:20:00.:20:08.

market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some

:20:09.:20:13.

other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a

:20:14.:20:19.

contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all

:20:20.:20:22.

working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to

:20:23.:20:27.

the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say

:20:28.:20:32.

there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across

:20:33.:20:36.

Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are

:20:37.:20:42.

contingency plans and my department and other departments have

:20:43.:20:46.

specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not

:20:47.:20:51.

correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I

:20:52.:20:57.

understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He

:20:58.:21:01.

is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I

:21:02.:21:06.

would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would

:21:07.:21:13.

you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you

:21:14.:21:22.

mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union

:21:23.:21:26.

at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what

:21:27.:21:32.

we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is

:21:33.:21:37.

if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put

:21:38.:21:43.

politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If

:21:44.:21:49.

they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those

:21:50.:21:52.

international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think

:21:53.:21:57.

you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you

:21:58.:22:01.

have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I

:22:02.:22:07.

would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are

:22:08.:22:10.

coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.

:22:11.:22:15.

Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side

:22:16.:22:21.

for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.

:22:22.:22:26.

Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we

:22:27.:22:30.

should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of

:22:31.:22:32.

our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a

:22:33.:22:56.

negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell

:22:57.:22:59.

you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another

:23:00.:23:02.

question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other

:23:03.:23:04.

countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada

:23:05.:23:07.

are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing

:23:08.:23:10.

basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after

:23:11.:23:12.

Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something

:23:13.:23:17.

so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to

:23:18.:23:23.

trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet

:23:24.:23:28.

been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on

:23:29.:23:33.

trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on

:23:34.:23:39.

the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have

:23:40.:23:45.

working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.

:23:46.:23:50.

Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry

:23:51.:23:55.

out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of

:23:56.:24:00.

Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we

:24:01.:24:05.

will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral

:24:06.:24:11.

agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in

:24:12.:24:18.

Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck

:24:19.:24:23.

leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on

:24:24.:24:27.

Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that

:24:28.:24:34.

about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's

:24:35.:24:40.

negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,

:24:41.:24:43.

they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.

:24:44.:24:48.

They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we

:24:49.:24:51.

have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British

:24:52.:24:55.

people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going

:24:56.:24:59.

to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else

:25:00.:25:04.

says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to

:25:05.:25:07.

get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on

:25:08.:25:11.

with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they

:25:12.:25:15.

do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the

:25:16.:25:19.

reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.

:25:20.:25:24.

Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's

:25:25.:25:26.

chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.

:25:27.:25:28.

We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's

:25:29.:25:30.

But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship

:25:31.:25:33.

with the single market and the customs union -

:25:34.:25:36.

Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.

:25:37.:25:39.

I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits

:25:40.:25:41.

of the customs union, and that's one of the issues

:25:42.:25:43.

Does it mean staying inside or leaving?

:25:44.:25:47.

Keep all the options open, keep all the options...

:25:48.:25:50.

Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?

:25:51.:25:52.

We are concentrating on the objectives rather

:25:53.:25:55.

than the structures and that seems to have a resonance

:25:56.:25:57.

I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary

:25:58.:26:01.

Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.

:26:02.:26:05.

Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election

:26:06.:26:11.

it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some

:26:12.:26:16.

answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of

:26:17.:26:20.

Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it

:26:21.:26:24.

want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.

:26:25.:26:29.

We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The

:26:30.:26:32.

end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are

:26:33.:26:34.

standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on

:26:35.:26:55.

that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of

:26:56.:26:58.

the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is

:26:59.:27:00.

open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum

:27:01.:27:03.

and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our

:27:04.:27:06.

laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single

:27:07.:27:08.

market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be

:27:09.:27:10.

seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting

:27:11.:27:13.

access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I

:27:14.:27:19.

am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would

:27:20.:27:23.

negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the

:27:24.:27:26.

consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow

:27:27.:27:32.

from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits

:27:33.:27:36.

we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will

:27:37.:27:40.

be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one

:27:41.:27:44.

of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people

:27:45.:27:49.

were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we

:27:50.:27:53.

could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the

:27:54.:27:58.

other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We

:27:59.:28:04.

have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.

:28:05.:28:10.

Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,

:28:11.:28:15.

the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the

:28:16.:28:21.

customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties

:28:22.:28:25.

in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?

:28:26.:28:29.

We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am

:28:30.:28:37.

asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice

:28:38.:28:44.

not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in

:28:45.:28:50.

the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be

:28:51.:28:54.

able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that

:28:55.:29:01.

in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point

:29:02.:29:06.

for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs

:29:07.:29:09.

union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part

:29:10.:29:15.

of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face

:29:16.:29:20.

without coming out of the customs union without any transitional

:29:21.:29:23.

arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you

:29:24.:29:27.

do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single

:29:28.:29:30.

market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single

:29:31.:29:40.

union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade

:29:41.:29:45.

deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the

:29:46.:29:53.

negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have

:29:54.:29:58.

negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside

:29:59.:30:01.

agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended

:30:02.:30:04.

settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we

:30:05.:30:10.

have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,

:30:11.:30:15.

says people would interpret remaining in the single market is

:30:16.:30:18.

not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep

:30:19.:30:23.

open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is

:30:24.:30:26.

automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single

:30:27.:30:30.

market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we

:30:31.:30:34.

would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make

:30:35.:30:38.

as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying

:30:39.:30:42.

it is completely off the table because stranger things have

:30:43.:30:46.

happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more

:30:47.:30:51.

on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we

:30:52.:30:53.

negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.

:30:54.:31:00.

But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the

:31:01.:31:06.

result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU

:31:07.:31:12.

you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's

:31:13.:31:16.

extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because

:31:17.:31:20.

stranger things have happened and this process so far has been

:31:21.:31:25.

extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating

:31:26.:31:29.

position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating

:31:30.:31:36.

position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to

:31:37.:31:39.

retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union

:31:40.:31:45.

and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot

:31:46.:31:50.

point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means

:31:51.:31:59.

Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and

:32:00.:32:03.

Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element

:32:04.:32:08.

of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was

:32:09.:32:13.

categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently

:32:14.:32:19.

Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The

:32:20.:32:24.

point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are

:32:25.:32:28.

extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There

:32:29.:32:36.

is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government

:32:37.:32:40.

has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is

:32:41.:32:45.

made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative

:32:46.:32:48.

membership for example but the clear position overall is that free

:32:49.:32:52.

movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed

:32:53.:32:56.

migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages

:32:57.:33:00.

for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that

:33:01.:33:04.

end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels

:33:05.:33:09.

labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another

:33:10.:33:15.

topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning

:33:16.:33:19.

the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is

:33:20.:33:27.

social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in

:33:28.:33:33.

Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social

:33:34.:33:40.

murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my

:33:41.:33:46.

constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same

:33:47.:33:50.

cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House

:33:51.:33:54.

fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government

:33:55.:33:59.

should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and

:34:00.:34:06.

they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst

:34:07.:34:11.

also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary

:34:12.:34:15.

remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is

:34:16.:34:26.

important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell

:34:27.:34:31.

Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I

:34:32.:34:35.

go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...

:34:36.:34:45.

Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were

:34:46.:34:53.

they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:34:54.:34:59.

sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,

:35:00.:35:03.

dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that

:35:04.:35:08.

appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a

:35:09.:35:14.

simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact

:35:15.:35:19.

is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty

:35:20.:35:23.

of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken

:35:24.:35:28.

through the courts, and could be classified as corporate

:35:29.:35:34.

manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The

:35:35.:35:40.

point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit

:35:41.:35:43.

sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building

:35:44.:35:46.

regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and

:35:47.:35:52.

time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want

:35:53.:35:57.

the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey

:35:58.:36:01.

from Salford, thank you for joining us.

:36:02.:36:03.

You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised

:36:04.:36:06.

and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having

:36:07.:36:08.

The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote

:36:09.:36:12.

is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's

:36:13.:36:17.

Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip

:36:18.:36:35.

about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And

:36:36.:36:42.

there is plotting. This programme understands Ukip's ruling body could

:36:43.:36:47.

ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to

:36:48.:36:53.

go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,

:36:54.:36:57.

wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more

:36:58.:37:01.

about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is

:37:02.:37:05.

growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new

:37:06.:37:10.

members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I

:37:11.:37:16.

don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam

:37:17.:37:22.

and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised

:37:23.:37:27.

in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are

:37:28.:37:30.

millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't

:37:31.:37:37.

want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed

:37:38.:37:42.

to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be

:37:43.:37:46.

the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro

:37:47.:37:52.

future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a

:37:53.:38:01.

party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I

:38:02.:38:04.

don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing

:38:05.:38:08.

and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say

:38:09.:38:12.

the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its

:38:13.:38:14.

integration agenda. Banning

:38:15.:38:21.

the burka and physically checking children for female

:38:22.:38:23.

genital mutilation. If we don't really do something

:38:24.:38:24.

about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go

:38:25.:38:27.

further but also suspects The party chairman says

:38:28.:38:29.

there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,

:38:30.:38:35.

including the screening process

:38:36.:38:51.

for its leadership candidates conducted

:38:52.:38:52.

by an external vetting company. But like the old boss,

:38:53.:38:53.

he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now

:38:54.:38:56.

is a process where people can I'm talking about the process

:38:57.:39:00.

we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,

:39:01.:39:04.

its history, and protect its future. We have always been

:39:05.:39:07.

about being for something, we are not against something,

:39:08.:39:09.

and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election

:39:10.:39:11.

so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one

:39:12.:39:14.

particular candidate. But it has got senior

:39:15.:39:15.

party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me

:39:16.:39:17.

the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away

:39:18.:39:20.

if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source

:39:21.:39:22.

said there would be mass The deadline for leadership

:39:23.:39:25.

nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have

:39:26.:39:29.

said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,

:39:30.:39:31.

the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be

:39:32.:39:34.

the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,

:39:35.:39:37.

amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most

:39:38.:39:40.

successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become

:39:41.:39:43.

more professional on their current

:39:44.:39:45.

trajectory, then they will on their current

:39:46.:39:53.

trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers

:39:54.:39:56.

and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it

:39:57.:40:00.

so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,

:40:01.:40:03.

get your act together, Whatever the direction

:40:04.:40:05.

the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think

:40:06.:40:15.

the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers

:40:16.:40:26.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:40:27.:40:36.

we'll be talking about what's next First though, the Sunday

:40:37.:40:41.

Politics where you are. Hello and welcome, ladies

:40:42.:40:54.

and gentlemen, to the London I'm joined for the duration

:40:55.:40:56.

by Chris Philp, Conservative MP for Croydon South and by Neil Coyle,

:40:57.:41:00.

Labour MP for Bermondsey did you know that once a year

:41:01.:41:03.

you can go into your local council We caught up with some armchair

:41:04.:41:14.

auditors who did just that that in Lambeth and found out

:41:15.:41:19.

what they discovered. I want to start by getting

:41:20.:41:21.

your take on the latest developments in the fallout

:41:22.:41:24.

from the Grenfell Tower fire. Earlier this morning Andrew Marr

:41:25.:41:28.

spoke to John McDonnell about his use of the phrase social murder to

:41:29.:41:35.

describe what happened at the Tower, would you say that term is fair to

:41:36.:41:40.

describe what happened? There are families still in shock about what

:41:41.:41:44.

happened. There were clearly falls in the materials were used so those

:41:45.:41:52.

people who must and will be held responsible for what happened and we

:41:53.:41:55.

must look at the building regulations and find a way to make

:41:56.:41:59.

sure this can never happen again. Isn't that kind of evocative

:42:00.:42:04.

language helpful? If it results in the Government taking action it has

:42:05.:42:09.

so far failed to do in retrofitting of sprinklers in tower blocks like

:42:10.:42:13.

Southwark, there are multiple tall buildings where people are more

:42:14.:42:17.

nervous now and would like to see their homes made safer and would

:42:18.:42:20.

like the Government to commit to doing that so it's shining a light

:42:21.:42:25.

on an important issue. Do you know which think of the left popularised

:42:26.:42:30.

the term social murder? Friedrich Engels. Do you think the fact

:42:31.:42:34.

Rebecca Long-Bailey and John McDonnell are using that kind of

:42:35.:42:38.

language suggests they occupy a wing of the party that uses the rhetoric

:42:39.:42:46.

you are not comfortable with? They are using that language because they

:42:47.:42:49.

wish to focus on the family 's who lost loved ones, and they are

:42:50.:42:52.

representing thousands of families across the country who are more

:42:53.:42:56.

nervous about their homes. They don't see sufficient action from the

:42:57.:42:59.

Government, they are worried building regulations are being

:43:00.:43:03.

abused or ignored for years and they are worried about their homes.

:43:04.:43:08.

Chris, do you think that's the right kind of language to be using? No, if

:43:09.:43:13.

we want to look after the victims of this fire and make sure it never

:43:14.:43:17.

happens again, because quite clearly it should never have happened in

:43:18.:43:21.

21st-century Britain, we must make sure it never happens again. The way

:43:22.:43:26.

we do that is not by using inflammatory words like social

:43:27.:43:29.

murder, we do that by having a full and proper investigation and wait

:43:30.:43:34.

and see what happens after that. There is a police investigation

:43:35.:43:39.

going on sale if anyone is guilty of manslaughter or murder, we will find

:43:40.:43:44.

out in due course. There will be an early interim report so lessons can

:43:45.:43:49.

happen quickly rather than after a year or two. That's the way this

:43:50.:43:57.

should happen, not by scoring some cheap political points so I call on

:43:58.:44:01.

everyone to get behind the inquiries and make sure whatever they find we

:44:02.:44:06.

take action. If there is any criminal liability like manslaughter

:44:07.:44:10.

or murder, the police will find out and organisations will be held

:44:11.:44:16.

responsible. But that wait and see point isn't good enough for people

:44:17.:44:20.

who are desperate to feel more secure in their homes. If you are

:44:21.:44:26.

living on the 22nd floor and you are nervous the Government is not

:44:27.:44:30.

retrofitting sprinklers, that issue can be resolved aside from the

:44:31.:44:35.

investigation, the longer inquiry into Grenfell Tower. And not saying

:44:36.:44:40.

do nothing, and within days of that terrible fire the establishment

:44:41.:44:43.

started testing hundreds of samples and in some cases evacuations took

:44:44.:44:49.

place as a result so of course we need instant action and I accept

:44:50.:44:53.

that. So when will the Government provide the funding for retrofit

:44:54.:45:02.

sprinklers? Where Fire Services said retrofit sprinklers were required

:45:03.:45:05.

and if the authorities didn't have money to do it, the Government

:45:06.:45:10.

committed to helping out. The Government has said if the council

:45:11.:45:14.

cannot afford to do essential work the Government will step in and

:45:15.:45:19.

help. The question for you is whether, clearly you want action to

:45:20.:45:26.

be taken, but is this kind of rhetoric actually useful in

:45:27.:45:29.

addressing the underlying problems or does it get in the way? Lots of

:45:30.:45:34.

people say we need a measured response and calling this horrific

:45:35.:45:37.

tragedy a social murder doesn't help.

:45:38.:45:41.

I'll be honest it is not language I would use but if it gets people

:45:42.:45:47.

security to carry on living in their homes, that is the most important

:45:48.:45:52.

part of this. The idea that there will be this fair assessment of

:45:53.:45:56.

council resources to retrofit by a government which has cut council

:45:57.:46:01.

budgets by 40%, it worries me. We need that money up front and not

:46:02.:46:06.

some sort of fake assessment. This 40% cut figure is not a real figure.

:46:07.:46:12.

I can see you two will get on, this is fantastic at max we will come

:46:13.:46:19.

back to Grenfell again in the show. Thank you for now.

:46:20.:46:21.

The capital is now seeing more than one acid attack every day,

:46:22.:46:24.

causing life-changing injuries to its victims.

:46:25.:46:25.

The increase in attacks has led to its rise up the political agenda,

:46:26.:46:28.

and on Monday MPs will debate what can be done

:46:29.:46:30.

There are some flashing images in Raphael Sheridan's report.

:46:31.:46:35.

On Thursday, Londoners were shocked by a spate of acid attacks,

:46:36.:46:39.

Two teenage males have since been arrested.

:46:40.:46:45.

It's a rising phenomenon in the capital.

:46:46.:46:47.

There were over 450 victims last year according to Met figures,

:46:48.:46:51.

double the number in 2015, and it's especially

:46:52.:46:53.

Once almost solely associated with so-called honour violence,

:46:54.:47:00.

it's becoming increasingly widespread as criminal gangs

:47:01.:47:03.

are thought to be switching from knives to acid.

:47:04.:47:06.

It's easier to buy and not a crime to carry.

:47:07.:47:09.

East Ham MP Stephen Timms is clear about what he wants to see happen.

:47:10.:47:14.

I'd like the Minister to confirm on Monday that the possession

:47:15.:47:17.

of acid will be an offence in the future in exactly the same

:47:18.:47:21.

way that possession of a knife is an offence today.

:47:22.:47:25.

I'd like the law to be changed so that sulphuric acid will only be

:47:26.:47:29.

He will be leading a debate about this in Parliament tomorrow

:47:30.:47:36.

in light of today's comments from the Home Secretary,

:47:37.:47:38.

who's warned future attackers they face life behind bars.

:47:39.:47:42.

Many Londoners will no doubt be anxious to see what MPs can do

:47:43.:47:45.

I'm joined by Rabina Khan, an independent councillor

:47:46.:47:54.

on Tower Hamlets council who has written on the subject.

:47:55.:48:00.

Thank you for coming in. Why are these acid attacks so sharply

:48:01.:48:09.

rising? I think we need to put some context to this. Acid attacks have

:48:10.:48:13.

been prevalent in this country and they happen across the world as

:48:14.:48:18.

well. They disproportionately affect women. Researchers showed in the

:48:19.:48:21.

last ten years hospital ad missions have doubled because of acid

:48:22.:48:25.

attacks. While we're having this debate and a quarter legislation,

:48:26.:48:29.

why so late in the day? These are the questions which need to be

:48:30.:48:34.

asked. But they have massively increased. Whether you go by

:48:35.:48:39.

financial years or not, in 2016 there were 398 against 317 before.

:48:40.:48:46.

In 2017 there were 452 attacks. They are rising sharply. Are they rising

:48:47.:48:52.

or is there better resources for people reporting as well? They're

:48:53.:48:55.

definitely has been a spike in the increase but I want to talk about

:48:56.:48:59.

the underreporting. The under reporting about many victims who

:49:00.:49:03.

feel they may face reprise all. I am dealing with a case of a woman and

:49:04.:49:07.

her son in Tower Hamlets who faced an acid attack back in November 20

:49:08.:49:12.

16. They do not want to come to the media

:49:13.:49:24.

because they are afraid of reprisals. We need support for

:49:25.:49:27.

victims to have the ability to report. There is a narrative in the

:49:28.:49:29.

media that this is prevalent in parts of the South Asian community

:49:30.:49:32.

and it is associated with an retribution, that women are attacked

:49:33.:49:33.

because they have behaved dishonourably. For people who find

:49:34.:49:36.

that thinking disgusting and don't understand it, what would be the

:49:37.:49:41.

thinking behind those parts of communities? In Bangladesh there are

:49:42.:49:46.

over 3500 acid attacks which have taken place. It happens in India and

:49:47.:49:50.

Afghanistan and this country. This has been in Britain for a long time.

:49:51.:49:54.

The fact we are now having this debate, the fact we are trying to

:49:55.:49:59.

change legislation, acid attacks are prevalent in certain communities and

:50:00.:50:04.

there is an agenda behind it. It is a terrorism agenda, trying to

:50:05.:50:08.

control a woman in that way. But the new context to acid attacks is the

:50:09.:50:13.

dimensions and debate around it have changed. We have gang members who

:50:14.:50:17.

think it is easier to carry a weapon of choice which is acid. It is

:50:18.:50:22.

easier to carry the acid than a knife, because it is an offensive

:50:23.:50:26.

crime if you carry a knife. It is easier to disguise acid because you

:50:27.:50:38.

can carry it around a bottle. Just picking up on what Rabina Khan has

:50:39.:50:43.

said, why has it taken until now for the debate to be held about the shop

:50:44.:50:47.

rising attacks? As you said, it has doubled recently. Injuring someone

:50:48.:50:51.

with acid is already a criminal offence. You can get up to a life

:50:52.:50:56.

sentence for carrying acid already and carrying it with intent has a

:50:57.:51:00.

sentence of up to four years under the current law. But I must agree

:51:01.:51:04.

with what Stephen Timms said. Effectively, acid is being used as a

:51:05.:51:09.

weapon like a knife and in my view, it should be treated as an

:51:10.:51:20.

equivalent. Merely carrying the worst kinds of acid like sulphuric

:51:21.:51:23.

acid and hydrochloric acid, I think there is a case of simply carrying

:51:24.:51:26.

that in public and offence in itself as it is with a knife already. It is

:51:27.:51:29.

a criminal intent to carry acid with intent but you do not need a license

:51:30.:51:34.

to buy it. Should you need a licence? I think for the most

:51:35.:51:37.

powerful kinds of acid there is a strong case for doing that and we

:51:38.:51:42.

will debate it in Parliament tomorrow. You cannot say you need

:51:43.:51:45.

hydrochloric or sulphuric acid around the home. Clearly, it is

:51:46.:51:53.

industrial or chemical. Will you be in Parliament tomorrow? Gas, and

:51:54.:51:58.

what concerns me is whether the law has changed and whether the police

:51:59.:52:04.

have the resources to do it. This tie was gifted to me by the mother

:52:05.:52:08.

of a 15-year-old murdered in a knife attack. We see 80% of knife crimes

:52:09.:52:13.

go an prosecuted. If we have the same position with acid attacks and

:52:14.:52:18.

80% of criminals going unpunished, we are not solving anything. Does it

:52:19.:52:23.

strike you as bizarre that we can have guidelines for knife attacks

:52:24.:52:28.

but we do not have any more for knife attacks, while as Rabina Khan

:52:29.:52:32.

has been arguing, it has been rising sharply for many years. Needs to

:52:33.:52:37.

move up the agenda. The other link here is the gangs are using it. The

:52:38.:52:42.

recent spate in north London was around my bed crime. People stealing

:52:43.:52:46.

mopeds by using acid on the mopeds driver and then using their mopeds

:52:47.:52:52.

to commit other crimes, in particular mobile phone thefts. The

:52:53.:52:56.

police say they do not have the means to tackle this. There are 2500

:52:57.:53:01.

mopeds thefts of mobile phones in the last month. Police do not have

:53:02.:53:05.

the resources to tackle that and they say they should not chase some

:53:06.:53:13.

mopeds drivers because of their safety. Is there a case that if

:53:14.:53:19.

licences are required for the carrying of acid, that people will

:53:20.:53:25.

end up buying it online instead?... We need to have the regulations and

:53:26.:53:33.

monitor who is purchasing it. It is very EEC for young people to access

:53:34.:53:39.

or certain members of our communities to access sulphuric

:53:40.:53:44.

acid. My problem is while we are having the debate about changing the

:53:45.:53:48.

legislation we are not talking about supporting the victims here. How

:53:49.:53:52.

would you like to do that? The intent about using acid, it is not

:53:53.:53:59.

about trying to kill, it is about to inflict humiliation. Permanent human

:54:00.:54:05.

relation. When acid is used, it melts the face and not the skin. The

:54:06.:54:10.

damage that is caused is very long-term. Katie Piper, whose face

:54:11.:54:15.

was rebuilt, the doctor has commented that the acid attacks are

:54:16.:54:23.

used to inflict painful sense of humiliation on the self, the

:54:24.:54:29.

identity, so the psychological and emotional support needs to be in

:54:30.:54:34.

place for victims. Some victims have had to endure 20 operations just to

:54:35.:54:38.

be able to breathe and come out in society. Has the Home Secretary

:54:39.:54:42.

Amber Rudd got it right when she said we need to look at life

:54:43.:54:49.

sentences? She needs to go further. The Home Office do not collect data

:54:50.:54:54.

on acid. The police need to be supportive and the support

:54:55.:54:57.

organisations who support victims of acid attacks also need to be

:54:58.:55:04.

supported. A final word on that? This is a terribly important issue.

:55:05.:55:08.

It ruins people's lives, it is deeply disturbing that it is on the

:55:09.:55:14.

rise and we do need to take action to halt it. Thank you for coming in.

:55:15.:55:19.

Depending on who you want to believe, councils are either

:55:20.:55:21.

cesspits of profligacy and waste or the cash-strapped victims

:55:22.:55:23.

But thanks to new powers, you, the public can now do something

:55:24.:55:27.

Since 2015, town halls have had to open up their accounts to the public

:55:28.:55:32.

for 30 days ever year, but in Lambeth one groups' attempts

:55:33.:55:34.

to use the powers is proving highly controversial.

:55:35.:55:36.

We went and spoke to that resident and said, can

:55:37.:55:40.

Meet the armchair auditors, Lambeth citizens armed

:55:41.:55:46.

with a spreadsheet and determined to shake things up at the Town Hall.

:55:47.:55:49.

It really started as a result that I lived next door to this estate

:55:50.:55:52.

and there was talk about it potentially being demolished because

:55:53.:55:54.

I read about this piece of legislation via a book called

:55:55.:56:03.

the Silent Estate by Heather Brooke which allows people

:56:04.:56:05.

to audit their accounts, and decided to give it a go really.

:56:06.:56:08.

So Simon decided to rally the troops.

:56:09.:56:11.

People like Tom here who live on the estate.

:56:12.:56:14.

We notified Lambeth of the issues and they still

:56:15.:56:16.

The result was a document they called the Lambeth People's Audit,

:56:17.:56:22.

which they allege has uncovered financial mismanagement

:56:23.:56:24.

Much of their work focuses on housing and repairs.

:56:25.:56:30.

So just now the People's Audit wants to show us around the estate,

:56:31.:56:34.

show some of the issues that there have been with repairs,

:56:35.:56:36.

with drainpipes, where there has been a fire risk,

:56:37.:56:39.

Unfortunately though, someone from Lambeth Council stopped

:56:40.:56:43.

They said the estate regeneration is so sensitive that

:56:44.:56:48.

television cameras are not allowed to film at all.

:56:49.:56:53.

So instead, here are some photos that they took earlier.

:56:54.:56:56.

One main claim in the People's Audit was the council took ?1 million

:56:57.:57:00.

from the pot of money the council ring-fenced for council housing,

:57:01.:57:04.

and rather than investing it in repairs, they spent it on doing

:57:05.:57:06.

The council say that, in their words, is fake news.

:57:07.:57:11.

The money is paying the town hall staff who work on housing.

:57:12.:57:16.

If you had a housing office on an estate,

:57:17.:57:19.

you would expect that to be paid for from the HRA because it's part

:57:20.:57:22.

If you put those people in another building they're

:57:23.:57:26.

sharing with other people, obviously, the costs are going

:57:27.:57:28.

You'd still expect that to be paid from the HRA.

:57:29.:57:32.

In fact, the council say the Lambeth People's Audit is not

:57:33.:57:35.

It's being presented as something else, which is really a shame

:57:36.:57:42.

because I do think the legislation, which lets people go in,

:57:43.:57:45.

look at a council's accounts, see exactly how the council

:57:46.:57:48.

is spending their money, is a really good thing.

:57:49.:57:51.

But in this instance, I'm afraid it has been hijacked

:57:52.:57:54.

by professional politicians who until very recently,

:57:55.:57:56.

I think there are questions to be asked about why they have

:57:57.:58:03.

So we put Lambeth Council's words to the People's Audit.

:58:04.:58:09.

The People's Audit is a collection of senior politicians

:58:10.:58:12.

from the Liberal Democrats and the Greens.

:58:13.:58:16.

I've never been a member of a political party in my life.

:58:17.:58:21.

Don't particularly have an intention of joining one.

:58:22.:58:26.

Some of the members are actively involved in politics

:58:27.:58:29.

This is George Turner, a former Lib Dem parliamentary

:58:30.:58:34.

There are people involved who are from the Green Party,

:58:35.:58:37.

people involved who are not a member of any party at all,

:58:38.:58:40.

and I think there might even be a few Labour Party members.

:58:41.:58:43.

I don't know what the party affiliation of people

:58:44.:58:46.

involved in the group are, because it's not a concern to us.

:58:47.:58:50.

Chris Holt has worked for the Greens.

:58:51.:58:52.

It's all very well for Lambeth Labour to attack the people

:58:53.:58:56.

We just want them to answer the questions.

:58:57.:59:01.

It doesn't matter who's asking them, just answer the questions

:59:02.:59:03.

and hopefully, we can all be satisfied.

:59:04.:59:05.

But to avoid misunderstanding, does there need to be more

:59:06.:59:08.

transparency on the half of the new armchair auditors,

:59:09.:59:10.

It's really important though that we know who's

:59:11.:59:24.

doing this sort of work, that they are as transparent

:59:25.:59:27.

as they are demanding of the local authority, and that there are clear

:59:28.:59:30.

parameters of how they present their information, so people can

:59:31.:59:32.

Under the new rules, every council has to open up

:59:33.:59:36.

Most London local authorities do it in the summer.

:59:37.:59:39.

So if you fancy joining the ranks of the armchair auditors,

:59:40.:59:42.

you are an MP may bring Lambeth. Would you welcome this action? I do

:59:43.:00:01.

think there are areas where transparency needs to be greater.

:00:02.:00:08.

For example, leaseholder charges for major works programmes is something

:00:09.:00:12.

which continually comes up for concerns, along with planning law

:00:13.:00:18.

and how the people are involved. Is the principle of opening up your

:00:19.:00:23.

accounts to citizens for 30 days a good one, because you believe in

:00:24.:00:27.

transparency, or a potentially dangerous one, because it will end

:00:28.:00:31.

up being captured by political organisations?

:00:32.:00:37.

There shouldn't be any problem opening up accounts, whether that's

:00:38.:00:46.

by an alternative political party. I think in one but it is unfortunate

:00:47.:00:50.

that appears to be opponents of the council leading part of the audit.

:00:51.:00:56.

That is contested, it is worth saying... If we just looked at this

:00:57.:01:04.

through what needs to be in the public domain, routinely, not just

:01:05.:01:08.

for 30 days in the summer but routinely made available. What's the

:01:09.:01:15.

point of this legislation if there is controversy over it and nothing

:01:16.:01:24.

really happens? The council says we don't accept your conclusions and

:01:25.:01:29.

that's that. I think it's a brilliant initiative. Openness and

:01:30.:01:33.

transparency is the beating heart of our democracy. The people in Lambeth

:01:34.:01:38.

appear to be independent, but with a few political activist as well. I

:01:39.:01:43.

will be encouraging people in Croydon to start doing the same

:01:44.:01:47.

things now. Clearly the National Audit Office has overall

:01:48.:01:50.

responsibility for local government audit so if the National Audit

:01:51.:01:55.

Office sees anything in this report, they should follow it up. The

:01:56.:02:00.

biggest element of accountability comes in May next year with the

:02:01.:02:04.

local council elections and if people decide their council has done

:02:05.:02:08.

a bad job, paying for repairs that were never done, paying twice as

:02:09.:02:13.

much as they should have done for repairs, spending money on the town

:02:14.:02:17.

hall instead of tenants, they have an opportunity to kick out the

:02:18.:02:20.

council next May and that's the ultimate sanction we have in a

:02:21.:02:25.

democracy, the ballot box. It is very easy to get into administrative

:02:26.:02:34.

bashing, but I think councils are having to be much more focused on

:02:35.:02:38.

how they spend money, much more innovative in their partnership

:02:39.:02:43.

working. But actually fundamentally councils don't have the resources to

:02:44.:02:49.

deliver the services. You said the budgets have been cut by 40% and

:02:50.:02:54.

that's not correct because the business retention has replaced

:02:55.:02:58.

that, leaving them broadly speaking flat. Councils should not be

:02:59.:03:02.

complaining about funding when they are paying for repairs that have

:03:03.:03:06.

never been carried out. Was it a good idea to scrap the audit

:03:07.:03:12.

commission in 2011 and make councils like number audited by... I think it

:03:13.:03:24.

has been damaged in how it can do its job. I don't agree, we have the

:03:25.:03:31.

National Audit Office overseeing it, it is wasteful duplication and I'm

:03:32.:03:35.

glad we streamlined it. You are fantastic double act. Thank you for

:03:36.:03:36.

coming in. My thanks to my guests

:03:37.:03:37.

Neil Coyle and to Chris Philp, This is the last Sunday Politics

:03:38.:03:41.

before Parliament breaks up for the summer recess, and most MPs could

:03:42.:03:53.

definitely do with some time away from the political hothouse at

:03:54.:03:56.

Westminster. But when they come back

:03:57.:03:58.

in September, both the Conservatives and Labour face some big questions

:03:59.:04:00.

over how to win an overall majority We'll talk about that in a moment,

:04:01.:04:03.

but first let's have a look at what's been happening to Theresa May

:04:04.:04:09.

and Jeremy Corbyn since polling day And what we are saying is the

:04:10.:04:26.

Conservatives are the largest party. Note they don't have an overall

:04:27.:04:27.

majority at this stage. She who dares doesn't always win.

:04:28.:04:44.

Now let's get to work. The party that has lost in this election is

:04:45.:04:48.

the Conservative Party. The arguments they put forward in this

:04:49.:04:53.

election have lost. I think we need a change. That's not quite true,

:04:54.:05:01.

Labour is a party that lost. The Government failed and her coming

:05:02.:05:08.

over here to try to speak to... Who? Who do you want to speak to you had

:05:09.:05:13.

your chance. Now everyone will go angry and crazy.

:05:14.:05:23.

I think the public will want us to get the broadest possible consensus

:05:24.:05:50.

in looking at those issues. If the Prime Minister would like it, I am

:05:51.:05:54.

happy to furnish her with a copy of our election manifesto.

:05:55.:06:01.

You are now playing for Arsenal! The comments we were getting back that

:06:02.:06:04.

were passed on to me were that we were going to get a better results

:06:05.:06:10.

than we did. Devastated enough to shed a tear? Yes, a little tear at

:06:11.:06:23.

that moment, yes. Let's start with Mrs May. Another

:06:24.:06:28.

day, another leadership rumour, challenge. She is tired, she wants

:06:29.:06:35.

to fight on, she doesn't. Is this corrosive to her leadership? Hugely

:06:36.:06:42.

corrosive. My estimation of what's really going on in the party, and

:06:43.:06:47.

Tory MPs in Westminster, is the vast majority and by that I mean probably

:06:48.:06:53.

around 300 don't want a contest. They want her to stay and finish

:06:54.:06:58.

Brexit, see it through, because of the incredible Pandora's box that

:06:59.:07:04.

would open. Who's putting these incredible column inches in the

:07:05.:07:11.

papers? They are giant egos, they have been at this for several years

:07:12.:07:17.

if not decades and they are keen to manoeuvre themselves into the

:07:18.:07:24.

position to be the leader. In their own interests? Because most Tories I

:07:25.:07:28.

speak to think the risk of another leadership election is horrendous

:07:29.:07:32.

for them because they fear it could lead to a general election and they

:07:33.:07:36.

will lose. The ones you are talking about, they put their own

:07:37.:07:40.

self-interest above the interest of their party. Without a doubt. They

:07:41.:07:46.

are funny bunch, we know them very well, but they are simply incapable

:07:47.:07:49.

of putting their own interests underneath those of the country. The

:07:50.:07:54.

problem for Mrs May is this won't stop. They are going to carry on

:07:55.:07:59.

doing this I think unless she says something about her own leadership

:08:00.:08:03.

and conference is the time to do it. She needs to spell out a timetable

:08:04.:08:08.

for herself, when she will stay and go. She almost did that, didn't she,

:08:09.:08:16.

in her interview with you. She came very close. I agree with almost

:08:17.:08:20.

everything Thomas said, but those on the backbenches who don't want a

:08:21.:08:26.

leadership contest, it's not purely for the good of the country, there

:08:27.:08:32.

is self-interest there too and that is because they are eyeing up the

:08:33.:08:36.

top job and they need a few years to build up a following. My view is

:08:37.:08:42.

people like Boris Johnson 's and Amber Rudd for their own reasons

:08:43.:08:45.

think they stand a better chance once Brexit is done. At the moment

:08:46.:08:53.

Mr Johnson too toxic for the Remainers, Amber Rudd too toxic for

:08:54.:09:04.

the Leavers. Last time Mrs May went walking in the hills, in Wales, she

:09:05.:09:08.

came back and called an election. She's about to go walking in the

:09:09.:09:12.

Swiss mountains I understand in the weeks ahead for a break. Is there

:09:13.:09:17.

any chance she comes back and says I'm not going on with this? No

:09:18.:09:22.

because although I think being a human being she will be deeply

:09:23.:09:26.

traumatised by what's happened, and it will probably hit her more

:09:27.:09:30.

intensely when she moves away for a few days from the cocoon drama of

:09:31.:09:34.

the whole situation, you just have to keep going and she will be

:09:35.:09:38.

walking and thinking what have I done? But she is clearly trying to

:09:39.:09:44.

hold on and she's built up a new Number Ten. Almost an entire new

:09:45.:09:49.

personnel in there. She's brought Damian Green in as a deputy so

:09:50.:09:53.

there's no sign she plans to go in the short-term but leadership is

:09:54.:09:59.

partly about a spell on us and her ministers. The fact that her

:10:00.:10:02.

ministers, even in her interview when she was being robust in two

:10:03.:10:06.

years, they know that she won't fight part of the next election

:10:07.:10:10.

which means part of the spell has gone. When Tony Blair gave a date

:10:11.:10:16.

for his departure, you could feel the power losing away from him. The

:10:17.:10:22.

fact that assumption is there means this feverish speculation will carry

:10:23.:10:28.

on until she goes. Let me come on to Mr Corbyn who would seem to be in a

:10:29.:10:33.

much better position after the election. What does he now do

:10:34.:10:38.

though? Because if you cannot provoke an election quite quickly,

:10:39.:10:41.

you never know how long your day in the sun will be. But he does have a

:10:42.:10:47.

mission or he and the people around him, they want to take control of

:10:48.:10:51.

those parts of the Labour Party they don't already take control, and they

:10:52.:10:58.

will probably do it. Absolutely, so Jeremy Corbyn has established he's a

:10:59.:11:00.

very good campaigner. Everybody now agrees on that. Look at the clip, he

:11:01.:11:07.

now dresses in a white shirt and a dark suit, and he actually looks I

:11:08.:11:12.

won't say Prime Minister Arial but like he could possibly lead the

:11:13.:11:19.

whole country. -- prime ministerial. But the whole thing is built on

:11:20.:11:24.

protests, there isn't a fully established policy set up where he

:11:25.:11:28.

is ready to take over the Government if this election comes. The

:11:29.:11:32.

challenge for him is to turn the huge generation of support he's got

:11:33.:11:37.

over protest into the ability to govern. You heard from Rebecca

:11:38.:11:42.

Long-Bailey on Brexit alone, the party now admitting their policy is

:11:43.:11:48.

cake and eat it, that is not electorally satisfying. Final word

:11:49.:11:52.

from Isabel. The fact is Mr Corbyn has been a transformative figure for

:11:53.:11:58.

the Labour Party. If and when he goes, it's not going back to normal.

:11:59.:12:04.

It is transformative for the Labour Party and the country. I disagree

:12:05.:12:10.

with Tom, they put forward a more detailed programme than the

:12:11.:12:13.

Conservatives at the election and be costed it to some extent. I think to

:12:14.:12:18.

be facing two weighs on Brexit is the only place for a Leader of the

:12:19.:12:23.

Opposition to beat and he has been smart on that. Tony Blair when he

:12:24.:12:28.

was a leader faced to microwaves on single currency, outside of

:12:29.:12:37.

Parliament he seemed be more robust, but he's played it very smart. All I

:12:38.:12:43.

would say is for Brexiteers we want more Tony Blair saying it won't

:12:44.:12:48.

happen. You think he's such a toxic figure that whatever side he

:12:49.:12:54.

supports damages that side? Absolutely, yes. As a leader of an

:12:55.:13:02.

opposition party you cannot advance things. All right, we will have to

:13:03.:13:05.

leave it there. Enjoy your summer. That's all for today, and that's

:13:06.:13:08.

all from us until September. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:09.:13:11.

it's the Sunday Politics - unless it's parliament's summer

:13:12.:13:13.

recess. But for me it is thank you and

:13:14.:13:20.

goodbye. When I think of the world

:13:21.:13:56.

we inhabit, everyone will think, When I think of the world

:13:57.:13:56.

we inhabit, everyone will think, Yeah. And it wasn't,

:13:57.:14:01.

it was done by hand over days and weeks

:14:02.:14:05.

and months and years. It was always

:14:06.:14:08.

a very, very deep love affair between this incredible,

:14:09.:14:13.

wonderful, glorious music and that's why we merged

:14:14.:14:16.

with the Liberals. ordinary people can make

:14:17.:14:26.

a big difference.

:14:27.:14:30.

Andrew Neil and Tim Donovan are joined by international trade secretary Liam Fox and shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey for a look at Ukip's future direction. Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.