12/01/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


12/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

:00:38.:00:47.

coalition is fighting over cuts Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

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the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

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will cut. That is the top story Chris Grayling called for a

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completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

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European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

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Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

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will they Labour promises to shift

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house`building up a gear but how will they get 1 million new homes

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built by 2020. We hear from the Shadow Housing Minister. In the

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North East and Cumbria, why tax is going up despite government

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be serious. Have cuts left to the service being overstretched?

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With me for the duration, a top trio of political pundits, Helen Lewis,

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Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They will be tweeting faster than France

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or long scoots through Paris. Nick Clegg sticks to his New Year

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resolution to sock it to the Tories, the is how he described Tory plans

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for another 12 billion of cuts on welfare after the next election

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You cannot say, as the Conservatives are, that we are all in it together

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and then say that the welfare will not make any additional

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contributions from their taxes if there is a Conservative government

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after 2015 in the ongoing effort to balance the books. We are not even

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going to ask that very wealthy people who have retired who have

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benefits, paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a

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sacrifice. The Conservatives appear to be saying only the working age

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pork will be asked to make additional sacrifices to fill the

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remaining buckle in the public finances.

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Nick Legg eating up on the Tories a, happens almost every day. I

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understand it is called aggressive differentiation. Will it work for

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them? It has not for the past two years. This began around the time of

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the AV referendum campaign, that is what poisoned the relations between

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the parties. They have been trying to differentiation since then, they

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are still at barely 10% in the polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings

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are horrendous, so I doubt they will do much before the next election. It

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is interesting it has been combined with aggressive flirtation with Ed

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Balls and the Labour Party. There was always going to be some sort of

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rapprochement between them and the Labour Party, it is in the Labour

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Party's interests, and it is intent macro's interests, not to be defined

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as somebody who can only do deals with the centre-right. A colleague

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of yours, Helen, told me there was more talk behind closed doors in the

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Labour Party high command, they have to think about winning the election

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in terms of being the largest party, but not necessarily an overall

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majority. There is a feeling it was foolish before the last election not

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to have any thought about what a coalition might be, but the language

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has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I cannot deal with this man, but now,

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I have to be prismatic, it is about principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick

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Clegg had specifically said that Ed Balls was the man in politics that

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he hated. He said that was just a joke. Of course, it is about

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principles, not people! When Ed Balls said those nice things about

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Nick Clegg, he said, I understood the need to get a credible deficit

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reduction programme, although he said Nick Clegg went too far. The

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thing about Nick Clegg, he feels liberated, he bears the wounds from

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the early days of the coalition and maybe those winds will haunt him all

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the way to the general election But he feels liberated, he says, we will

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be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure

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that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have

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economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is

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attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be

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falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on

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welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will

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say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps

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taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense

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when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny

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slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib

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Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the

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public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that

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section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like

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what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who

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was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too

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nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has

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gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to

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Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for

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the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general

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elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,

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you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a

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problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has

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had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike

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and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.

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Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers

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and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.

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Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough

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talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they

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are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they

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thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his

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party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like

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everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice

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Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.

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Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up

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more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change

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them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.

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The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them

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in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job

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15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison

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Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to

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offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not

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teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is

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deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It

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helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to

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a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.

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That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,

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training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to

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ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work

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persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a

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dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the

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last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.

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Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner

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released in February and now managing his own store says, the

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point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have

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experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,

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on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of

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favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal

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conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad

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other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk

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of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of

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State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of

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policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,

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from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending

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rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from

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groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him

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is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party

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that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of

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the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is

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no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him

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too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped

:10:57.:10:59.

out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair

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enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where

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we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and

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privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any

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sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's

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reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.

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Welcome. We have a lot to cover If you get your way, your own personal

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way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the

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European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise

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for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European

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court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our

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Supreme Court our Supreme Court they can be no question of decisions

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over riding it elsewhere, and we have to have a situation where our

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laws contain a balance of rights and responsibilities. People talk about

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knowing their rights, but they do not accept they have responsible it

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is. This is what you said last September, I want to see our Supreme

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Court being supreme again... That is clear, but let's be honest, the

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Supreme Court cannot be supreme as long as its decisions can be

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referred to the European Court in Strasbourg. There is clearly an

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issue, that was raised recency - recently. We have been working on a

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detailed reform plan, we will publish that in the not too distant

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future. What we will set out is a direction of travel for a new

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Conservative government that will mean wholesale change in this area.

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You already tried to reform the European Court, who had this

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declaration in 2012, do you accept that the reform is off the table?

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There is still a process of reform, but it is not going fast enough and

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not delivering the kind of change we need. That is why we will bring

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forward a package that for the different from that and will set a

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different direction of travel. We are clear across the coalition, we

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have a different view from our colleagues. You cannot be half

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pregnant on this, either our decisions from our Supreme Court are

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subject to the European Cup or not, in which case, we are not part of

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the European court. I hope you will see from our proposals we have come

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up with a sensible strategy that deals with this issue once and for

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all. Can we be part of the Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme

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Court be supreme? That is by point, we have to curtail the role of the

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court in the UK. I am clear that is what we will seek to do. It is what

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we will do for this country. But how? I am not going to announce the

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package of policies today, but we will go into the next election with

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a clear strategy that will curtail the role of the European Court of

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Human Rights in the UK. The decisions have to be taken in

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Parliament in this country. Are you sure that you have got your own side

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on this? Look at what the Attorney General says.

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I would be asking Strasberg a different question to that. If the

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best in class, he is saying is enough is enough, actually somebody

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in Strasberg should be asking if this has gone the way it should have

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done. I would love to see wholesale reform in the court tomorrow, I m

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not sure it is going to happen which is why we are going to the election

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with a clear plan for this country. Would you want that to be a red line

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in any coalition agreement? My mission is to win the next election

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with a majority. But you have to say where your red lines would be. We

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have been very clear it is an area where we don't agree as parties but

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in my view the public in this country are overwhelmingly behind

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the Conservative party. 95 Conservative MPs have written to the

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Prime Minister, demanding he gives the House of Commons the authority

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to veto any aspect of European Union law. Are you one of the people who

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wanted to sign that letter but you couldn't because you are minister? I

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haven't been asked to sign the letter. We need a red card system

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for European law. I'm not convinced my colleagues... I don't think it is

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realistic to have a situation where one parliament can veto laws across

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the European Union. I understand the concerns of my colleagues, but when

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we set out to renegotiate our membership, we have got to deliver

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renegotiation and deliver a system which is viable, and I'm not

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convinced we can have a situation where one Parliament can prevent

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laws across the whole European Union. So you wouldn't have signed

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this letter? I'm not sure it is the right approach. I support the system

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I just talked about. Iain Duncan Smith has suggested EU migrants

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coming to work in this country should have to wait for two years

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before they qualify for welfare benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think

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there should be an assumption that before you can move from one country

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to another, before you can start to take back from that country's social

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welfare system, you should have made a contribution to it. I spent two

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and a half years working in Brussels trying to get the European

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Commission to accept the need for change. There is a groundswell of

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opinion out there which is behind Iain Duncan Smith in what he is

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saying. I think we should push for a clear system that says people should

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be able to move from one country to get a job, but to move to another

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country to live off the state is not acceptable. You are planning a new

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2000 capacity mega prison and other smaller presence which will be run

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by private firms. After what has happened with G4S, why would you do

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that? No decision has been made about whether it will be public or

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private. What do you think it will be? I'm not sure yet. There is no

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clear correlation over public and private prisons and whether there

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are problems or otherwise. Oakwood is in its early stages, it has had

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teething problems at the start, but the rate of disturbance there is

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only typical for an average prison of its category. If you take an

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example of Parc prison in Wales a big private run prison, run by G4S,

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when it was first launched under the last government it had teething

:18:56.:18:59.

problems of the same kind as Oakwood and is now regarded as one of the

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best performing prisons. Why would you give it to a private company

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then? We have only just got planning permission for the so we will not be

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thinking about this for another few years. Some of the companies who run

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prisons are under investigation with dreadful track records. In the case

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of G4S, what we have experienced is acceptable and they have not been

:19:30.:19:32.

able to go ahead with a number of contracts they might have otherwise

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got. They are having to prove to the Government they are fit to win

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contracts from the Government again. They are having to pay compensation

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to the Government and the taxpayer. What has happened is unacceptable.

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So why would you give them a 20 0 capacity mega prison? Or anyone like

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them? It cannot be said that every private company is bad. In addition

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to problems at Oakwood, you are quite unique now in your position

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that you have managed to get the barristers out on strike the first

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time since history began. What happens if the bar refuses to do

:20:19.:20:25.

work at your new rates of legal aid and the courts grind to a halt? I

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don't believe that will happen. When the barristers came out on strike,

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three quarters of Crown Courts were operating normally, 95% of

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magistrates courts were operating normally. We are having to take

:20:40.:20:44.

difficult decisions across government, I have no desire to cut

:20:45.:20:49.

back lately but we are spending over ?2 billion on legal aid at the

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moment at a time when budgets are becoming tougher. You issued

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misleading figures about criminal barristers, you said that 25% of

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them earn over ?100,000 per year but that is their turnover, including

:21:08.:21:13.

VAT. 33% of that money goes on their expenses, they have to pay for their

:21:14.:21:18.

own pensions and insurance. People are not getting wealthy out of doing

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this work. I don't publish figures, our statisticians do, with caveats

:21:25.:21:30.

in place explaining the situation. Where you have high-cost cases,

:21:31.:21:32.

where we have taken the most difficult decisions, we have tried

:21:33.:21:38.

hard in taking difficult decisions to focus the impact higher up the

:21:39.:21:47.

income scale. But do you accept their take-home pay is not 100, 00?

:21:48.:21:54.

I accept they have to take out other costs, although some things like

:21:55.:21:58.

travelling to the court, you and I and everyone else has to pay for

:21:59.:22:09.

travelling to work. That is net of VAT. We have had a variety of

:22:10.:22:15.

figures published, some are and some are not. Let's be clear, the gross

:22:16.:22:21.

figures for fees from legal payments include 20% VAT. On a week when even

:22:22.:22:26.

a cabinet minister can be fitted up by the police, don't we all need

:22:27.:22:36.

well-financed legal aid? There is no chance that as a result

:22:37.:22:40.

well-financed legal aid? There is no changes people will end up in court

:22:41.:22:52.

unable to defend themselves. We have said in exceptional circumstances,

:22:53.:22:55.

if you haven't got any money to pay, we will support you, but there is no

:22:56.:22:59.

question of anyone ended up in court, facing a criminal charge

:23:00.:23:04.

where they haven't got a lawyer to defend them. Let's look at how so

:23:05.:23:10.

many dangerous criminals have managed to avoid jail. Here are the

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figures for 2012. Half the people for sexual assault found guilty not

:23:17.:23:25.

jailed. I thought you were meant to be tough on crime? Those figures

:23:26.:23:32.

predate my time, but since 2010 the number of those people going to jail

:23:33.:23:37.

has been increasing steadily. If you put the figures for 2010 on there,

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you would see a significant change. We will never be in a position where

:23:42.:23:47.

everybody who commits violence will end up in jail. The courts will

:23:48.:23:52.

often decided to his more appropriate to give a community

:23:53.:23:56.

sentence, but the trend is towards longer sentences and more people

:23:57.:24:01.

going to jail. That maybe but it is even quite hard to get sent to jail

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if you do these things a lot, again and again. In 2012 one criminal

:24:08.:24:12.

avoided being sent to jail despite having more than 300 offences to his

:24:13.:24:23.

name. 36,000 avoided going to jail despite 15 previous offences. That

:24:24.:24:27.

is why we are taking steps to toughen up the system. Last autumn

:24:28.:24:33.

we scrapped repeat cautions. You could find people getting dozens. As

:24:34.:24:38.

of last autumn, we have scrapped repeat cautions. If you commit the

:24:39.:24:42.

same offence twice within a two year period you will go to court. You

:24:43.:24:48.

still might end up not going to jail. More and more people are going

:24:49.:24:56.

to jail. I cannot just magic another 34,000 prison places. You haven t

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got room to put bad people in jail? The courts will take the decisions,

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and it is for them to take the decisions and not me, that two men

:25:07.:25:12.

in a bar fight do not merit a jail sentence. These figures contain a

:25:13.:25:18.

huge amount of offences from the most minor of offences to the most

:25:19.:25:24.

despicable. Something is wrong if you can commit 300 offences and

:25:25.:25:28.

still not end up in jail. That's right, and we are taking steps so

:25:29.:25:33.

this cannot happen any more. Nick Clegg said this morning you are

:25:34.:25:40.

going to make 12 billion of welfare cuts on the back of this, he is

:25:41.:25:49.

right, isn't he? People on the lowest incomes are often not paying

:25:50.:25:56.

tax at all, the rich... But these cuts will fall disproportionately on

:25:57.:26:02.

average earners, correct? Let's look at the proposal to limit housing

:26:03.:26:09.

benefit for under 25s. Until today, after people have left school or

:26:10.:26:15.

college, the live for a time with their parents. For some, that is not

:26:16.:26:19.

possible and we will have to take that into account, but we have said

:26:20.:26:23.

there is a strong case for saying you will not get housing benefit

:26:24.:26:28.

until you are some years down the road and have properly established

:26:29.:26:32.

yourselves in work. And by definition these people are on lower

:26:33.:26:40.

than average salaries. Give me a case in which those on the higher

:26:41.:26:45.

tax band will contribute to the cuts. We have already put in place

:26:46.:26:50.

tax changes so that the highest tax rate is already higher than it was

:26:51.:26:54.

in every year of the last government. The amount of tax..

:26:55.:27:03.

There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future

:27:04.:27:08.

policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this

:27:09.:27:12.

country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future

:27:13.:27:18.

plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the

:27:19.:27:23.

under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to

:27:24.:27:29.

provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.

:27:30.:27:33.

All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent

:27:34.:27:36.

need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But

:27:37.:27:39.

how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground

:27:40.:27:42.

in the run-up to the next general election.

:27:43.:27:44.

Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous

:27:45.:27:47.

year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in

:27:48.:27:55.

peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that

:27:56.:27:57.

between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be

:27:58.:28:05.

created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband

:28:06.:28:07.

promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I

:28:08.:28:16.

will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be

:28:17.:28:21.

building 200,000 homes per year more than at any time for a

:28:22.:28:25.

generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour

:28:26.:28:29.

leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural

:28:30.:28:32.

neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to

:28:33.:28:37.

use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas

:28:38.:28:39.

including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to

:28:40.:28:43.

boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping

:28:44.:28:47.

his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi

:28:48.:28:49.

criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the

:28:50.:28:56.

countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand

:28:57.:28:59.

new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,

:29:00.:29:13.

Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details

:29:14.:29:16.

of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me

:29:17.:29:18.

now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of

:29:19.:29:23.

house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment

:29:24.:29:29.

that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more

:29:30.:29:33.

diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater

:29:34.:29:39.

role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,

:29:40.:29:45.

but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were

:29:46.:29:50.

building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a

:29:51.:29:55.

third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so

:29:56.:29:58.

restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the

:29:59.:30:04.

land, so little land is being released for house building. I

:30:05.:30:08.

agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land

:30:09.:30:11.

market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be

:30:12.:30:15.

tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make

:30:16.:30:20.

sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access

:30:21.:30:24.

to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and

:30:25.:30:29.

finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who

:30:30.:30:36.

reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty

:30:37.:30:40.

shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are

:30:41.:30:48.

smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France

:30:49.:30:53.

is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for

:30:54.:31:02.

them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,

:31:03.:31:06.

but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us

:31:07.:31:16.

to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on

:31:17.:31:20.

that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants

:31:21.:31:24.

to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single

:31:25.:31:27.

biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great

:31:28.:31:33.

opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking

:31:34.:31:39.

the government, they say they are going to release and of public land

:31:40.:31:43.

for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are

:31:44.:31:47.

not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your

:31:48.:31:53.

leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the

:31:54.:31:59.

land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?

:32:00.:32:06.

This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say

:32:07.:32:11.

to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.

:32:12.:32:14.

In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to

:32:15.:32:21.

escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter

:32:22.:32:26.

of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of

:32:27.:32:34.

local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the

:32:35.:32:37.

homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would

:32:38.:32:43.

give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,

:32:44.:32:48.

the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase

:32:49.:32:52.

orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build

:32:53.:32:56.

houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in

:32:57.:33:00.

recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders

:33:01.:33:03.

is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the

:33:04.:33:07.

Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem

:33:08.:33:11.

with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with

:33:12.:33:15.

planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson

:33:16.:33:21.

says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make

:33:22.:33:25.

sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.

:33:26.:33:32.

They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There

:33:33.:33:37.

is a whole degree of complicity but there is another problem before

:33:38.:33:42.

that. That is around transparency about land options. There is

:33:43.:33:46.

agricultural land that house-builders have land options on,

:33:47.:33:51.

and we do not know where that is. Where there is a need for housing,

:33:52.:33:55.

and the biggest demand is in the south-east of England, that is where

:33:56.:34:01.

many local authorities are most reluctant to do it, will you in

:34:02.:34:06.

central government take powers to force these authorities to give it?

:34:07.:34:09.

We have talked about the right to grow, we were in Stevenage

:34:10.:34:20.

recently. What we have said is we want to strengthen the hand of local

:34:21.:34:25.

authorities like Stevenage so they are not blocked every step of the

:34:26.:34:30.

way. They need 16,000 new homes but they do not have the land supply.

:34:31.:34:34.

What about the authorities that do not want to do it? They should be

:34:35.:34:38.

forced to sit down and agree with the neighbouring authority. In

:34:39.:34:42.

Stevenage, it is estimated at ?500,000 has been spent on legal

:34:43.:34:46.

fees because North Hertfordshire is blocking Stevenage every step of the

:34:47.:34:52.

way. Michael Lyons says the national interest will have to take President

:34:53.:34:56.

over local interest. Voice cannot mean a veto. The local community in

:34:57.:35:02.

Stevenage is crying out for new homes. Do you agree? There has to be

:35:03.:35:08.

land available for new homes to be built, and in areas like Oxford

:35:09.:35:14.

Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree with Michael Lyons? The national

:35:15.:35:15.

interest does have to be served with Michael Lyons? The national

:35:16.:35:37.

will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can

:35:38.:35:43.

incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new

:35:44.:35:48.

towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will

:35:49.:35:53.

have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall not

:35:54.:35:59.

at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to

:36:00.:36:02.

recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The

:36:03.:36:05.

recover, but it has been pretty difference between house-building

:36:06.:36:07.

now and in the past, since Mrs Thatcher came to power a and

:36:08.:36:11.

including the Tony Blair government, we did not build council houses

:36:12.:36:17.

Almost none. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council

:36:18.:36:22.

has programme? We inherited housing stock back in 1997... This is

:36:23.:36:28.

has programme? We inherited housing important. Will the next Labour

:36:29.:36:31.

government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on

:36:32.:36:35.

this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We

:36:36.:36:39.

want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you

:36:40.:36:44.

away from the election. Will the away from the election. Will the

:36:45.:36:48.

next Labour government embark on away from the election. Will the

:36:49.:36:51.

major council house Northern programme? I want to see a council

:36:52.:36:55.

house building programme, because there is a big shortage of council

:36:56.:36:57.

homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got there is a big shortage of council

:36:58.:37:06.

there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes

:37:07.:37:13.

in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday

:37:14.:37:15.

in the West Midlands in a moment. Politics. Coming up in just over 20

:37:16.:37:18.

minutes, I will look at the week ahead with our political

:37:19.:37:43.

The sheer. We ask why so many town halls are refusing calls to freeze

:37:44.:37:52.

bills. Could an independent Scotland

:37:53.:38:01.

reopened dishes railway lines. Here are my first guess of 2014. Welcome

:38:02.:38:10.

to you both. There are more bookies on the Regent `` region's High

:38:11.:38:19.

Street. That is 1000 of them in the North East alone. Some people have

:38:20.:38:24.

described them as the crack cocaine of gambling addiction. Labour wants

:38:25.:38:30.

councils to begin in more powers to limit these machines. How big a

:38:31.:38:36.

problem are these? Labour called a debate on this issue because we are

:38:37.:38:40.

very concerned about the increasing numbers. Also the areas they are

:38:41.:38:47.

targeted on. They are targeted on deprived areas and we know people

:38:48.:38:51.

are getting addicted to these machines. We would like to see

:38:52.:38:56.

better regulation and better safety aspects. Councils have the power to

:38:57.:39:01.

make decisions whether they want more betting shops under High

:39:02.:39:09.

Street. They tend to be springing up at every opportunity. They are part

:39:10.:39:16.

of the same class use as financial institutions like banks and building

:39:17.:39:22.

societies. If a company want to put a new shop in one of those premises,

:39:23.:39:26.

they do not need authorisation from the authority to do that. ?1 billion

:39:27.:39:33.

in the North East went into these machines. The government has been

:39:34.:39:37.

dithering about whether to take action. It is clearly a problem.

:39:38.:39:45.

There is a problem and the Liberal Democrats are clear about that. We

:39:46.:39:49.

are forced the government to take action. It was the Labour Party that

:39:50.:39:52.

permitted these onto the High Street in the first place, even though the

:39:53.:39:57.

Liberal Democrats warned at the time and voted against it at the time. It

:39:58.:40:02.

was predictable that putting these machines onto the High Street would

:40:03.:40:08.

have these effects. We need to see change. The industry is being told

:40:09.:40:14.

to tighten controls by March or face action. Evidence is being gathered

:40:15.:40:23.

at the moment. The liberal Democrats supported the government this week.

:40:24.:40:31.

They say they need to train control this. We have always said it needs

:40:32.:40:39.

to be kept under review. Unfortunately, as often with

:40:40.:40:43.

opposition, you have to look at the wording of the motion. It... I am

:40:44.:40:54.

afraid the motion by Labour would have made no difference to the

:40:55.:40:56.

existing situation in the High Street. We have to leave it there.

:40:57.:41:04.

Now to the council tax. The cost could be about to go even higher.

:41:05.:41:09.

The government says local councils should be thinking of householders

:41:10.:41:13.

and putting a freeze on bills. A number of councils have said they

:41:14.:41:17.

cannot afford to do that. It is all smiles at this children's centre

:41:18.:41:23.

today, but that is a threat. The council is thinking of having their

:41:24.:41:31.

budget for children's centres. We have used the centre in the past and

:41:32.:41:35.

many of us have second babies on the way and we are panicking if it will

:41:36.:41:39.

not be there. I have always worked and my taxes. At a time when I

:41:40.:41:46.

needed now, the service I rely on is at risk. The council says it could

:41:47.:41:54.

contribute to a target cut. It also asks if people might be prepared to

:41:55.:42:00.

pay council tax with an increase to protect services. We want to protect

:42:01.:42:08.

services like this. The only way to do that is to say to people, will

:42:09.:42:16.

you pay more? People in Gateshead seemed divided about whether they

:42:17.:42:21.

would pay more. I would rather pay less, not more. Yes, just to keep

:42:22.:42:32.

care in the community going. Yes, I would. I think we pay enough

:42:33.:42:39.

already. I am struggling as it is. Some councils the bills will have to

:42:40.:42:45.

go up. Darlington is planning a 2% rise. It will not stop all the cuts.

:42:46.:42:49.

This railway museum will lose its funding in two years. The council

:42:50.:42:53.

says it will make a difference with the increase. 2% is not a lot. It is

:42:54.:43:00.

a lot if you are on benefits and on top of the other charges. The

:43:01.:43:09.

alternative is that something like 60% of social care might be cut. We

:43:10.:43:14.

cannot achieve this without the increase. We need that revenue. Eric

:43:15.:43:24.

Pickles says he has provided enough help for councils to freeze bills.

:43:25.:43:29.

He might be more angry when he sees with other councils have planned.

:43:30.:43:34.

Durham, North Yorkshire, Cumbria, Carlisle, Copeland, Allerdale,

:43:35.:43:41.

Northumberland and middle but at all considering an increase of 2%. ``

:43:42.:43:48.

). Even Darlington conservatives accept there might have to be arise.

:43:49.:43:56.

We do have major concerns because they are also talking about reading

:43:57.:43:59.

the balances over the next two years to try and balance the books. We had

:44:00.:44:05.

another very serious situation. We have to look at more in marriage and

:44:06.:44:11.

at ways of providing services. Unless local authorities can be

:44:12.:44:16.

persuaded of their local track, the plans for a freeze could be

:44:17.:44:22.

derailed. Given the financial position of councils, you can

:44:23.:44:26.

understand it goes back clearly times are tough. Councils rely

:44:27.:44:34.

heavily on government grants. We have seen big cuts going on. Redcar

:44:35.:44:38.

have recently done a fundamental review of their services which will

:44:39.:44:42.

save a large amount of money for local taxpayers. It will mean some

:44:43.:44:47.

people will lose their jobs which we regret. Is that acceptable? They

:44:48.:44:56.

have refused to do any freezing, apart from the very first year so we

:44:57.:45:01.

have seen the council tax go up every year and I am pleased they are

:45:02.:45:05.

finally getting to grips with sharing services and making things

:45:06.:45:07.

more efficient. That is what the public want. Wages are not going

:45:08.:45:15.

up. Yet it is Labour councils which are putting this up? We have to be

:45:16.:45:21.

clear about why councils are in this position. The government is

:45:22.:45:29.

implementing these cuts in an extremely unfair way. Councils and

:45:30.:45:34.

the more deprived areas in the country are being hit really hard

:45:35.:45:39.

when more affluent parts are actually getting an increase in

:45:40.:45:43.

funding from the government. It is about choices... People who are

:45:44.:45:51.

struggling to make ends meet are being charged more? Newcastle have

:45:52.:45:56.

taken a decision to freeze council tax. They have seen an increase in

:45:57.:46:03.

requests for debt advice in the last two years. We know people are

:46:04.:46:07.

struggling with the cost of living, housing, rent, electricity bills.

:46:08.:46:16.

What is the game of Eric Pickles? Would be more anxious `` on its to

:46:17.:46:27.

save services? This decision is being left to local authorities

:46:28.:46:31.

because it is a decision they have to decide about what their residents

:46:32.:46:36.

can put up with. They have to provide value for money in the

:46:37.:46:41.

current circumstances. Newcastle has taken the decision that imposing an

:46:42.:46:47.

additional burden on households would just come back on debt. Eric

:46:48.:46:55.

Pickles's offer is a bogus one, it is a headline grabber. It will

:46:56.:47:03.

disappear within a couple of years? The problem for councils is they can

:47:04.:47:06.

take the government money but it does not shake `` change the base.

:47:07.:47:14.

It is 1% of the budget. That enables councils to freeze council tax.

:47:15.:47:23.

Newcastle is one of these. That is the choice, it is a local choice.

:47:24.:47:31.

Actually, Eric Pickles will not raise council tax above 2% without a

:47:32.:47:36.

referendum. That is not local democracy. Let people choose.

:47:37.:47:44.

Referendums are democracy. Do you want a referendum every time you

:47:45.:47:50.

change tax rates in the budget? Now, but the choice you have referred to

:47:51.:47:55.

is what he's giving people. There is also money available for two more

:47:56.:47:59.

years of threes but it remains to be seen whether people will take it or

:48:00.:48:02.

not. We will have two leave it there. Traditionally, Scotland has

:48:03.:48:07.

been seen as a threat to the North East, competing for jobs and

:48:08.:48:13.

investment. It is no surprise that many are worried about the prospect

:48:14.:48:17.

of Scotland getting more power after the independence referendum insert

:48:18.:48:21.

member. It could also bring benefits to our region. `` in September. The

:48:22.:48:29.

Waverley line ran through the Scottish Borders from Edinburgh to

:48:30.:48:35.

Carlisle and closed in 1969. In 2006, the Scottish Parliament made

:48:36.:48:40.

way for a partial restoration of the service. Work is already underway in

:48:41.:48:48.

Scotland. Extending the line to Cumbria is only an ambition at

:48:49.:48:52.

present. This is the biggest restoration project ever in the UK.

:48:53.:49:00.

It is over 30 miles. It has 60 miles to go. It will take a long time, but

:49:01.:49:05.

it is achievable. The current restoration will only go from

:49:06.:49:10.

Edinburgh to Tweedbank. Those who voted for it say independence will

:49:11.:49:14.

help extend the line back to Cumbria once more. Cross`border

:49:15.:49:21.

communications go beyond transport. I think transport is a major factor,

:49:22.:49:26.

but there are other issues we're working on. We want to work in

:49:27.:49:31.

collaboration with Scotland's own tourism, rural issues, retail.

:49:32.:49:40.

Carlisle is the capital of this particular region. Our catchment

:49:41.:49:50.

area for retail is a huge area. We attract a lot of people. It is

:49:51.:49:55.

really important. The strategic `` position of Carlisle is being taken

:49:56.:50:01.

into consideration as the referendum approaches. The referendum has drawn

:50:02.:50:07.

attention to things which have been ongoing like the way in which

:50:08.:50:12.

services are delivered and economic development is organised by either

:50:13.:50:19.

side of the border. We want to coordinator effort across`the`board.

:50:20.:50:26.

It is a range of areas that work through the local authorities.

:50:27.:50:31.

Improvements could be made. The prospect of independent Scotland is

:50:32.:50:36.

viewed as more of a challenge than an opportunity to those supporting a

:50:37.:50:41.

no vote. Carlisle is at the centre of the United Kingdom at present. If

:50:42.:50:47.

Scotland were independent, we would be a border city. I do not think

:50:48.:50:52.

that is a benefit to Scotland or Carlisle or England. We are better

:50:53.:51:00.

as a united country. How England could benefit from Scottish

:51:01.:51:04.

independence is far from clear, but the fact the referendum is happening

:51:05.:51:09.

is focusing minds in Cumbria. The SNP of history hopes for a yes

:51:10.:51:20.

vote. We spoke to an SNP member of the Scottish Parliament and asked

:51:21.:51:22.

him how realistic it was to talk about future independence. Clearly,

:51:23.:51:32.

I would like to see the real we reopen over a period of time. We

:51:33.:51:39.

have suggestions that might go all the way from Edinburgh to London. As

:51:40.:51:44.

a long`term objectives, I believe it is essential. We will insure that is

:51:45.:51:51.

meaningful communication between Carlisle and others. If that were

:51:52.:51:56.

likely to happen under an independent Scotland? I would say

:51:57.:52:05.

it's more likely, wouldn't I. The emphasis we have put on capital

:52:06.:52:11.

expenditure and infrastructure benefits that would be brought is of

:52:12.:52:18.

importance. What other kind of cross`border cooperation could

:52:19.:52:25.

people look forward to? There are similarities. If you look at

:52:26.:52:33.

Carlisle and Cumbria, the energy focus, this is an parallel with what

:52:34.:52:39.

we're trying to do in Scotland. There is no reason why we should not

:52:40.:52:42.

be able to work in partnership in the region successfully together.

:52:43.:52:49.

There is a great desire to dual the A1 in the North East. Would an

:52:50.:52:54.

independent Scotland help out with that? I do not know that I can

:52:55.:53:01.

comment on that. We have so many other priorities, but these are the

:53:02.:53:07.

kind of things we would want to discuss with the rest of the UK

:53:08.:53:12.

government and decide what is of major priority. That they to be one

:53:13.:53:17.

of them. There is anxiety south of the border, where people don't have

:53:18.:53:22.

a vote about what an independent Scotland might mean. What if

:53:23.:53:30.

Scotland set and lower corporation tax, businesses might head north of

:53:31.:53:35.

the border, so what can you say to reassure people? It is incumbent on

:53:36.:53:42.

the UK government to ensure that the people of the North East understand

:53:43.:53:46.

what the implications are for them when Scotland becomes independent. I

:53:47.:53:52.

believe will see more generation and enthusiasm, especially on the

:53:53.:53:57.

business front and tourism and agriculture. That will encourage

:53:58.:54:06.

less of London sucking all the economy down south.

:54:07.:54:12.

We hear a lot from unionists about the danger of Scottish

:54:13.:54:16.

independence, but is there an opportunity here to work with the

:54:17.:54:19.

government for a common cause? I think that opportunity currently

:54:20.:54:27.

exists and is being utilised. Most of what the SNP has to say to argue

:54:28.:54:34.

for independence unravels quickly as we see already on the clip you

:54:35.:54:40.

showed. You have seen, we work closely with Scotland's already. We

:54:41.:54:44.

have a lot of common interests. A government that can do more than it

:54:45.:54:52.

can do no? We are to have a government, a devolved

:54:53.:54:56.

administration which is working closely with local authorities. We

:54:57.:55:03.

have a common interest in the North Sea, the North Sea gas and oil, we

:55:04.:55:11.

see five daily flights to Aberdeen at the moment from Newcastle

:55:12.:55:15.

Airport. This is because of the skills we have freaky news for the

:55:16.:55:19.

benefit of Scotland. Also the benefit we have of having those jobs

:55:20.:55:24.

available to us. There are huge areas of independent `` of mutual

:55:25.:55:27.

interest we already work together on. If Scotland does go

:55:28.:55:36.

independent, cooperation can continue? If Scotland goes

:55:37.:55:41.

independent, they will be outside the UK and the European Union. They

:55:42.:55:48.

will not get in because Spain and others will veto it. We will have

:55:49.:55:56.

border points and immigration rules. That is not the intention of

:55:57.:56:02.

Scotland, is that? No, it is not but if they are not in the European

:56:03.:56:06.

Union, all our immigration laws will apply. I have spoken to people who

:56:07.:56:12.

live on one side of the border and work on the other and they say this

:56:13.:56:19.

is a nightmare. I think the more the SNP talk about this, the more

:56:20.:56:25.

logically give to the union. Our current system for the North East

:56:26.:56:28.

means we have to go cap in hand to London, Edinburgh is closest

:56:29.:56:34.

potential capital city. We already work closely with Scotland. We work

:56:35.:56:38.

on a number of issues across`the`board. `` cross border. I

:56:39.:56:50.

think ultimately we have two remember how deeply destabilising

:56:51.:56:53.

this talk of up potentially independent Scotland is at a time

:56:54.:56:57.

when the economy is still very fragile. We are talking about

:56:58.:57:04.

getting jobs into the economy and that has to be our focus,

:57:05.:57:08.

destabilising like this is very damaging. For Eric Pickles, his New

:57:09.:57:19.

Year resolution was not to make friends with local councils. He has

:57:20.:57:22.

already had an argument with them about rubbish. Here are the

:57:23.:57:33.

highlights. The government new bill has been

:57:34.:57:40.

approved but many asbestos victims. Be denied compensation according to

:57:41.:57:45.

a local MP. The Middlesbrough MP has asked the government to expand the

:57:46.:57:52.

use of the Darlington airport. The Berwick MP has asked the government

:57:53.:57:58.

to help deal with a fire which has been burning since September last

:57:59.:58:02.

year. The residents have been suffering from the fumes and small

:58:03.:58:09.

of potentially hazardous waste. The fire brigade can't protect the fire

:58:10.:58:12.

for a polluting the water supply. Councils which collect rubbish

:58:13.:58:19.

fortnightly are crazy, according to Eric Pickles. He wasn't returned

:58:20.:58:25.

weekly collections. This was the height of municipal splendour when

:58:26.:58:29.

it was built and now with the new town hall in Gateshead is to get a

:58:30.:58:37.

new lease of life as a music venue. Has Eric Pickles been mischievous

:58:38.:58:44.

about rubbish collections? When Redcar went to a weekly collection

:58:45.:58:49.

there was a row but there has been nothing since. It would cost more to

:58:50.:58:55.

go back to weekly collections so I think it is pie in the sky. I do not

:58:56.:58:59.

know why he has he and his border about this. Perhaps it is because

:59:00.:59:08.

people do care about this. `` RB in his bonnet. People are recycling

:59:09.:59:15.

more. The landfill charges are rising every year so it would be

:59:16.:59:22.

cost prohibitive to do what he is suggesting. It is very strange of

:59:23.:59:26.

him to talk about localism and then dictate from Whitehall how often

:59:27.:59:30.

people should get their bins collected. He has issued a crazy

:59:31.:59:37.

bible about bins for local authorities. It is patronising and

:59:38.:59:43.

he's just mischiefmaking. Or is he saying something that a lot of

:59:44.:59:49.

people do actually care about? Clearly, people who are still on

:59:50.:59:53.

weekly bends do not want to go to fortnightly bends. You do get used

:59:54.:00:00.

to it. I do not understand why he is going on about this. `` bins.

:00:01.:00:09.

Perhaps he is just trying to win friends and influence people. Keep

:00:10.:00:17.

up on Twitter with me. Make a comment on the BBC blog if you like.

:00:18.:00:21.

Back next will not be revoked. And I wouldn't

:00:22.:00:26.

want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.

:00:27.:00:36.

Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to

:00:37.:00:40.

satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the

:00:41.:00:50.

tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.

:00:51.:00:55.

We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.

:00:56.:01:01.

Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed

:01:02.:01:08.

this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically

:01:09.:01:11.

elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with

:01:12.:01:19.

a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what

:01:20.:01:30.

Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural

:01:31.:01:33.

body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to

:01:34.:01:35.

do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force

:01:36.:01:42.

-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to

:01:43.:01:45.

participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we

:01:46.:01:51.

signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself

:01:52.:01:56.

without having the support of the public of the member states. This is

:01:57.:02:01.

just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe

:02:02.:02:06.

altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an

:02:07.:02:10.

organisation that does some coordination and that has trade

:02:11.:02:13.

agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.

:02:14.:02:20.

Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not

:02:21.:02:24.

to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have

:02:25.:02:28.

ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to

:02:29.:02:36.

come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our

:02:37.:02:40.

own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.

:02:41.:02:45.

What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming

:02:46.:02:50.

from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the

:02:51.:02:53.

number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures

:02:54.:02:58.

are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.

:02:59.:03:03.

Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we

:03:04.:03:06.

can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we

:03:07.:03:12.

need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the

:03:13.:03:16.

United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of

:03:17.:03:19.

the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But

:03:20.:03:28.

there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from

:03:29.:03:31.

the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour

:03:32.:03:38.

Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom

:03:39.:03:44.

about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming

:03:45.:03:51.

here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are

:03:52.:03:55.

behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your

:03:56.:03:59.

benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that

:04:00.:04:06.

might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!

:04:07.:04:15.

Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We

:04:16.:04:21.

have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied

:04:22.:04:25.

us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every

:04:26.:04:32.

piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It

:04:33.:04:36.

would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can

:04:37.:04:41.

not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised

:04:42.:04:47.

that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret

:04:48.:04:51.

Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,

:04:52.:04:57.

and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said

:04:58.:05:01.

the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national

:05:02.:05:04.

vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French

:05:05.:05:08.

will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret

:05:09.:05:13.

Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How

:05:14.:05:16.

could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes

:05:17.:05:28.

mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes

:05:29.:05:31.

mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine

:05:32.:05:37.

Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as

:05:38.:05:46.

an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be

:05:47.:05:49.

interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and

:05:50.:05:53.

import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single

:05:54.:05:58.

market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to

:05:59.:06:03.

determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide

:06:04.:06:07.

the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,

:06:08.:06:11.

that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is

:06:12.:06:17.

more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it

:06:18.:06:23.

will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be

:06:24.:06:28.

worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever

:06:29.:06:33.

letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood

:06:34.:06:40.

up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is

:06:41.:06:44.

dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the

:06:45.:06:48.

EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European

:06:49.:06:53.

law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the

:06:54.:06:57.

Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The

:06:58.:07:02.

political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next

:07:03.:07:07.

election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off

:07:08.:07:12.

a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of

:07:13.:07:16.

this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in

:07:17.:07:23.

coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of

:07:24.:07:25.

the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to

:07:26.:07:30.

do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron

:07:31.:07:34.

is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked

:07:35.:07:39.

over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a

:07:40.:07:44.

counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,

:07:45.:07:49.

because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom

:07:50.:07:55.

other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,

:07:56.:08:00.

Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.

:08:01.:08:06.

That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.

:08:07.:08:11.

We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and

:08:12.:08:15.

spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are

:08:16.:08:22.

all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational

:08:23.:08:27.

organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a

:08:28.:08:30.

political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John

:08:31.:08:35.

Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing

:08:36.:08:40.

deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick

:08:41.:08:50.

question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way

:08:51.:08:52.

in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper

:08:53.:08:57.

meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of

:08:58.:09:00.

Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord

:09:01.:09:09.

Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.

:09:10.:09:13.

I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ

:09:14.:09:23.

's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house

:09:24.:09:29.

was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime

:09:30.:09:32.

ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until

:09:33.:09:38.

now. What is clear is that he is

:09:39.:09:41.

floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy

:09:42.:09:46.

price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right

:09:47.:09:50.

Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical

:09:51.:09:57.

profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,

:09:58.:10:01.

and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of

:10:02.:10:07.

touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you

:10:08.:10:11.

are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband

:10:12.:10:19.

trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to

:10:20.:10:24.

do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers

:10:25.:10:26.

questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul

:10:27.:10:33.

Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the

:10:34.:10:38.

first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall

:10:39.:10:43.

over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a

:10:44.:10:47.

more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron

:10:48.:10:51.

started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I

:10:52.:10:55.

would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote

:10:56.:11:02.

which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon

:11:03.:11:05.

Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.

:11:06.:11:11.

Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of

:11:12.:11:18.

Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting

:11:19.:11:22.

their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I

:11:23.:11:27.

sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is

:11:28.:11:31.

the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull

:11:32.:11:38.

as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch

:11:39.:11:44.

and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy

:11:45.:11:48.

this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from

:11:49.:11:52.

Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,

:11:53.:12:00.

the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify

:12:01.:12:05.

substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not

:12:06.:12:11.

necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising

:12:12.:12:12.

industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been

:12:13.:12:16.

hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no

:12:17.:12:19.

money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but

:12:20.:12:24.

you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without

:12:25.:12:28.

expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will

:12:29.:12:33.

survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is

:12:34.:12:39.

that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial

:12:40.:12:43.

state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure

:12:44.:12:48.

spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info

:12:49.:12:51.

structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the

:12:52.:12:57.

idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is

:12:58.:13:01.

something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once

:13:02.:13:05.

thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have

:13:06.:13:11.

delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to

:13:12.:13:19.

deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily

:13:20.:13:23.

Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I

:13:24.:13:28.

aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is

:13:29.:13:33.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:39.

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