24/11/2013 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


24/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss present the latest political stories, with Conservative chairman Grant Shapps and a look at Ed Miliband's choices for Desert Island Discs.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the

:00:42.:00:44.

Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant

:00:45.:00:47.

Shapps. Five years on from the financial

:00:48.:00:50.

crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't

:00:51.:00:53.

the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the

:00:54.:00:55.

City's new financial watchdog. We'll ask the man who runs the

:00:56.:01:00.

And he used to have a windmill on his roof and talked about giving

:01:01.:01:03.

hugs to hoodies and huskies. These days, not so much. Has the plan to

:01:04.:01:09.

And here: 600 jobs go at Middlesbrough Council. We

:01:10.:01:18.

homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?

:01:19.:01:27.

And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows

:01:28.:01:32.

can only dream of. Janan Ganesh Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They ll

:01:33.:01:35.

be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes

:01:36.:01:40.

they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from

:01:41.:01:43.

Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities

:01:44.:01:46.

in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the

:01:47.:01:50.

enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some

:01:51.:02:00.

funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive

:02:01.:02:04.

deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama

:02:05.:02:07.

had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive

:02:08.:02:15.

diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our

:02:16.:02:20.

partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,

:02:21.:02:24.

as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a

:02:25.:02:30.

new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we

:02:31.:02:36.

can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it

:02:37.:02:42.

cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White

:02:43.:02:46.

House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a

:02:47.:02:52.

full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and

:02:53.:02:58.

end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good The

:02:59.:03:01.

Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the

:03:02.:03:07.

Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger

:03:08.:03:14.

currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was

:03:15.:03:18.

there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West

:03:19.:03:22.

would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes

:03:23.:03:28.

implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who

:03:29.:03:34.

is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious

:03:35.:03:39.

reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or

:03:40.:03:45.

within Iran, how powerful is he There are military men and

:03:46.:03:48.

intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The

:03:49.:03:55.

Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the

:03:56.:03:59.

Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the

:04:00.:04:05.

Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read

:04:06.:04:10.

this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.

:04:11.:04:20.

-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of

:04:21.:04:26.

weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the

:04:27.:04:30.

Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The

:04:31.:04:35.

United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons

:04:36.:04:39.

grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted

:04:40.:04:42.

to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key

:04:43.:04:52.

thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his

:04:53.:04:57.

inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President

:04:58.:05:01.

McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.

:05:02.:05:08.

There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural

:05:09.:05:12.

address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we

:05:13.:05:18.

don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.

:05:19.:05:23.

Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create

:05:24.:05:27.

nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei

:05:28.:05:33.

authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.

:05:34.:05:39.

That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over

:05:40.:05:45.

the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,

:05:46.:05:50.

he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of

:05:51.:05:56.

Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going

:05:57.:06:06.

on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any

:06:07.:06:13.

sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but

:06:14.:06:16.

if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and

:06:17.:06:21.

the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has

:06:22.:06:29.

very low credibility now. There s already been angry noises coming

:06:30.:06:33.

from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of

:06:34.:06:37.

John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great

:06:38.:06:41.

together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an

:06:42.:06:52.

eye on this. It is a fascinating development.

:06:53.:06:54.

More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank s

:06:55.:06:57.

disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links

:06:58.:07:02.

between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big

:07:03.:07:05.

problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been

:07:06.:07:09.

revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them

:07:10.:07:13.

"smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.

:07:14.:07:23.

Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you

:07:24.:07:32.

accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here

:07:33.:07:36.

is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into

:07:37.:07:42.

difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making

:07:43.:07:45.

sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand

:07:46.:07:49.

what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could

:07:50.:07:52.

have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband

:07:53.:07:58.

on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed

:07:59.:08:04.

Miliband. But by Prime Minister s Questions on Wednesday, David

:08:05.:08:08.

Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all

:08:09.:08:15.

along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that

:08:16.:08:22.

he had been a Labour councillor Reverend Flowers, and had been made

:08:23.:08:27.

to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't

:08:28.:08:30.

seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman

:08:31.:08:37.

of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr

:08:38.:08:44.

Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the

:08:45.:08:49.

Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very

:08:50.:08:58.

inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are

:08:59.:09:01.

telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I

:09:02.:09:06.

have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument

:09:07.:09:10.

about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This

:09:11.:09:15.

morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these

:09:16.:09:20.

questions and that these smears This is ludicrous. These are

:09:21.:09:23.

important questions about an important bank, how it ended up

:09:24.:09:27.

getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia

:09:28.:09:33.

deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how

:09:34.:09:41.

the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the

:09:42.:09:44.

questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are

:09:45.:09:48.

accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the

:09:49.:09:55.

drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was

:09:56.:10:04.

known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew

:10:05.:10:08.

about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned

:10:09.:10:13.

as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew

:10:14.:10:18.

that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew

:10:19.:10:22.

about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is

:10:23.:10:26.

certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know

:10:27.:10:34.

about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer

:10:35.:10:41.

those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,

:10:42.:10:45.

asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but

:10:46.:10:49.

about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made

:10:50.:10:54.

loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite

:10:55.:11:00.

bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to

:11:01.:11:06.

Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend

:11:07.:11:11.

Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that

:11:12.:11:17.

off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered

:11:18.:11:21.

them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his

:11:22.:11:27.

past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that

:11:28.:11:30.

involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely

:11:31.:11:36.

you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,

:11:37.:11:40.

and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband

:11:41.:11:46.

didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing

:11:47.:11:51.

that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask

:11:52.:11:55.

perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,

:11:56.:11:58.

and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is

:11:59.:12:09.

all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with

:12:10.:12:12.

the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare

:12:13.:12:16.

changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider

:12:17.:12:25.

picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over

:12:26.:12:33.

the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept

:12:34.:12:38.

that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions

:12:39.:12:45.

for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was

:12:46.:12:50.

very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later

:12:51.:12:56.

deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was

:12:57.:13:01.

a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had

:13:02.:13:08.

been a proper process back in 2 09, would the Britannia deal have gone

:13:09.:13:15.

through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the

:13:16.:13:20.

Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his

:13:21.:13:24.

way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you

:13:25.:13:27.

had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a

:13:28.:13:35.

super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't

:13:36.:13:41.

go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look

:13:42.:13:48.

at the process. There was long indications as far back as January

:13:49.:13:54.

2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over

:13:55.:13:58.

which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds

:13:59.:14:03.

branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored

:14:04.:14:09.

the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the

:14:10.:14:13.

Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,

:14:14.:14:17.

this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very

:14:18.:14:21.

problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this

:14:22.:14:27.

year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the

:14:28.:14:30.

purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this

:14:31.:14:35.

time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is

:14:36.:14:39.

important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it

:14:40.:14:42.

transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the

:14:43.:14:52.

Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition

:14:53.:14:57.

of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not

:14:58.:15:00.

have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,

:15:01.:15:04.

but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to

:15:05.:15:10.

Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on

:15:11.:15:15.

earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of

:15:16.:15:18.

Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the

:15:19.:15:23.

mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure

:15:24.:15:29.

that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the

:15:30.:15:34.

mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to

:15:35.:15:38.

be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there

:15:39.:15:42.

was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we

:15:43.:15:46.

followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed

:15:47.:15:51.

in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have

:15:52.:15:55.

been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question

:15:56.:15:59.

to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as

:16:00.:16:03.

soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there

:16:04.:16:06.

is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.

:16:07.:16:11.

There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the

:16:12.:16:14.

debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped

:16:15.:16:20.

work from paying in this country. The big question your government has

:16:21.:16:24.

two answer is, why, by July 201 , when it was clear there was a black

:16:25.:16:28.

hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the

:16:29.:16:33.

Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?

:16:34.:16:38.

Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come

:16:39.:16:42.

home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we

:16:43.:16:46.

will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get

:16:47.:16:51.

to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds

:16:52.:16:55.

deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when

:16:56.:17:01.

Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge

:17:02.:17:03.

black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take

:17:04.:17:09.

over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not

:17:10.:17:14.

the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal

:17:15.:17:19.

to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which

:17:20.:17:24.

did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper

:17:25.:17:28.

process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the

:17:29.:17:33.

previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be

:17:34.:17:38.

that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure

:17:39.:17:41.

perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so

:17:42.:17:50.

disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to

:17:51.:17:55.

go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent

:17:56.:17:59.

review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,

:18:00.:18:03.

independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The

:18:04.:18:09.

response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer

:18:10.:18:15.

the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are

:18:16.:18:24.

out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was

:18:25.:18:27.

approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was

:18:28.:18:32.

swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution

:18:33.:18:36.

in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct

:18:37.:18:40.

Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a

:18:41.:18:49.

spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial

:18:50.:18:53.

sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire

:18:54.:18:58.

annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,

:18:59.:19:04.

who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the

:19:05.:19:09.

financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to

:19:10.:19:12.

supervise the banks on a day-to day basis. The Bank of England was

:19:13.:19:17.

supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial

:19:18.:19:20.

system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these

:19:21.:19:24.

things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or

:19:25.:19:31.

main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as

:19:32.:19:34.

a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new

:19:35.:19:38.

system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays

:19:39.:19:48.

here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation

:19:49.:19:51.

Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced

:19:52.:19:55.

with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the

:19:56.:20:01.

financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is

:20:02.:20:06.

all about whether the people in financial services are playing by

:20:07.:20:09.

the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place

:20:10.:20:14.

has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a

:20:15.:20:18.

new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,

:20:19.:20:22.

more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new

:20:23.:20:27.

organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old

:20:28.:20:34.

offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also

:20:35.:20:39.

inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman

:20:40.:20:43.

the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation

:20:44.:20:46.

into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own

:20:47.:20:51.

conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into

:20:52.:20:55.

banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up

:20:56.:21:00.

to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,

:21:01.:21:05.

it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to

:21:06.:21:09.

me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal

:21:10.:21:15.

at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City

:21:16.:21:22.

is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the

:21:23.:21:24.

Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.

:21:25.:21:31.

Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one

:21:32.:21:34.

of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in

:21:35.:21:40.

2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why

:21:41.:21:45.

have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes

:21:46.:21:50.

since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,

:21:51.:21:54.

we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank

:21:55.:21:58.

and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul

:21:59.:22:02.

Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was

:22:03.:22:04.

appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going

:22:05.:22:11.

from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he

:22:12.:22:16.

only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But

:22:17.:22:20.

the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA

:22:21.:22:25.

operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do

:22:26.:22:29.

not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have

:22:30.:22:33.

opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation

:22:34.:22:36.

of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that

:22:37.:22:41.

that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was

:22:42.:22:45.

still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being

:22:46.:22:49.

seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds

:22:50.:22:55.

branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test

:22:56.:22:59.

as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they

:23:00.:23:03.

never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them It

:23:04.:23:08.

was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the

:23:09.:23:12.

capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they

:23:13.:23:14.

withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the

:23:15.:23:20.

right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on

:23:21.:23:25.

all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find

:23:26.:23:29.

anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to

:23:30.:23:35.

happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I

:23:36.:23:38.

continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op

:23:39.:23:41.

have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you

:23:42.:23:46.

got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when

:23:47.:23:49.

Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered

:23:50.:23:53.

that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not

:23:54.:23:58.

the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you

:23:59.:24:03.

do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got

:24:04.:24:07.

delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA

:24:08.:24:14.

going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The

:24:15.:24:25.

Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a

:24:26.:24:29.

number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events

:24:30.:24:34.

over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation I

:24:35.:24:39.

think the police have already announced an investigation. I am

:24:40.:24:43.

talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might

:24:44.:24:47.

be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked

:24:48.:24:56.

at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed

:24:57.:25:03.

off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working

:25:04.:25:09.

there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services

:25:10.:25:12.

Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.

:25:13.:25:18.

We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not

:25:19.:25:28.

a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a

:25:29.:25:31.

requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require

:25:32.:25:37.

that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional

:25:38.:25:49.

experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up

:25:50.:25:53.

on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a

:25:54.:25:56.

nonexecutive director of the Co op, so how does that work? Welcome he

:25:57.:26:04.

was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who

:26:05.:26:07.

made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your

:26:08.:26:12.

board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should

:26:13.:26:15.

not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like

:26:16.:26:21.

that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get

:26:22.:26:25.

good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in

:26:26.:26:29.

the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and

:26:30.:26:33.

industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the

:26:34.:26:37.

confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank

:26:38.:26:40.

decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who

:26:41.:26:45.

pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond

:26:46.:26:50.

who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the

:26:51.:26:55.

Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would

:26:56.:26:59.

inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -

:27:00.:27:02.

how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,

:27:03.:27:08.

that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a

:27:09.:27:12.

relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't and

:27:13.:27:16.

we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did

:27:17.:27:20.

not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left

:27:21.:27:24.

and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special

:27:25.:27:31.

support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning

:27:32.:27:38.

about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to

:27:39.:27:42.

see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of

:27:43.:27:46.

time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday

:27:47.:27:51.

lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we

:27:52.:27:55.

will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit

:27:56.:27:58.

on the interest they can charge That is something we can study. You

:27:59.:28:04.

do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need

:28:05.:28:08.

to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of

:28:09.:28:12.

continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would

:28:13.:28:16.

be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing

:28:17.:28:21.

concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 9 %

:28:22.:28:26.

mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we

:28:27.:28:31.

should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007

:28:32.:28:35.

- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our

:28:36.:28:40.

mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put

:28:41.:28:44.

affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You

:28:45.:28:55.

have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have

:28:56.:28:56.

many challenges. It was once called the battle of the

:28:57.:29:06.

mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style

:29:07.:29:08.

modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction

:29:09.:29:11.

and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on

:29:12.:29:18.

changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he

:29:19.:29:23.

promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need

:29:24.:29:27.

more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He

:29:28.:29:33.

told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the

:29:34.:29:38.

day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching

:29:39.:29:42.

trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects

:29:43.:29:47.

of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said

:29:48.:29:52.

that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn t

:29:53.:29:56.

done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms

:29:57.:30:05.

into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare

:30:06.:30:10.

reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants

:30:11.:30:14.

talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says

:30:15.:30:22.

that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green

:30:23.:30:29.

crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the

:30:30.:30:32.

Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has

:30:33.:30:34.

pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".

:30:35.:30:41.

Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still

:30:42.:30:46.

doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David

:30:47.:30:49.

Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.

:30:50.:30:55.

Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David

:30:56.:31:00.

Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,

:31:01.:31:05.

that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory

:31:06.:31:07.

modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right

:31:08.:31:14.

Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do

:31:15.:31:19.

that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 931,

:31:20.:31:24.

and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North.

:31:25.:31:29.

We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns

:31:30.:31:38.

of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that

:31:39.:31:42.

we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green

:31:43.:31:46.

levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at

:31:47.:31:52.

ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't

:31:53.:31:55.

do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy

:31:56.:32:02.

bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of

:32:03.:32:05.

modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old

:32:06.:32:11.

dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back I

:32:12.:32:17.

am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has

:32:18.:32:22.

been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes

:32:23.:32:26.

a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and

:32:27.:32:34.

cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a

:32:35.:32:38.

kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free

:32:39.:32:47.

vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories

:32:48.:32:51.

voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a

:32:52.:32:55.

split between the old and young but it actually was a split between

:32:56.:32:59.

those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a

:33:00.:33:03.

misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I

:33:04.:33:11.

think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my

:33:12.:33:16.

part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 8 and

:33:17.:33:22.

one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight

:33:23.:33:26.

Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He

:33:27.:33:32.

was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found

:33:33.:33:34.

three young people? Hang on a three young people? Hang on a

:33:35.:33:39.

minute. You can't get away with that. Three in one batch. Does

:33:40.:33:48.

modernisation exist? Modernisation is about watering our appeal and

:33:49.:33:54.

sharing our values are relevant to voters who haven't really thought

:33:55.:33:58.

about voting for us for decades now. Modernisation is about more than

:33:59.:34:02.

windmills and stuff, it is about boosting the life chances of the

:34:03.:34:06.

poorest, it is about putting better schools in poorer areas. It is also

:34:07.:34:12.

saying that modernisation and the Tory party... When has the Tory

:34:13.:34:16.

party been against making poorer Tory party... When has the Tory

:34:17.:34:21.

people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher

:34:22.:34:25.

those elections? The problem we have those elections? The problem we have

:34:26.:34:28.

at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of

:34:29.:34:34.

those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the

:34:35.:34:39.

vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry

:34:40.:34:44.

about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for

:34:45.:34:52.

decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to

:34:53.:34:54.

decades. Having an EU Referendum vote. We have to reach out to

:34:55.:35:00.

voters, but not by some sort of London based in need. You have to

:35:01.:35:05.

broaden your base. I agree with you on that. We have to broaden our

:35:06.:35:09.

concept is not going to work. We concept is not going to work. We

:35:10.:35:14.

need something that generally appeals to low and middle-income

:35:15.:35:18.

genuinely care about the life genuinely care about the life

:35:19.:35:23.

chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't

:35:24.:35:31.

support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration.

:35:32.:35:35.

We don't have an EU Referendum Bill stop we have to get the centre right

:35:36.:35:39.

to vote for us again. Do that, and we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 5

:35:40.:35:47.

euros, will be returned in Corby because we cannot win an election

:35:48.:35:51.

euros, will be returned in Corby there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether

:35:52.:36:01.

you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly

:36:02.:36:07.

in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You

:36:08.:36:15.

are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are

:36:16.:36:19.

building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more

:36:20.:36:26.

houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is

:36:27.:36:32.

rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more

:36:33.:36:35.

rich, and public school educated. people from state education into the

:36:36.:36:36.

top. You are going the other way at top. You are going the other way at

:36:37.:36:42.

the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say

:36:43.:36:51.

that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a

:36:52.:36:57.

comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low

:36:58.:37:06.

income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:07.:37:08.

Coming up in Hello and welcome to your local

:37:09.:37:25.

Politics Show. As more council jobs are lost in Middlesbrough, we ask if

:37:26.:37:29.

the region's private companies could create enough new jobs to fill the

:37:30.:37:33.

gap. And the disabled travellers who have to be pushed across the tracks

:37:34.:37:38.

in the gap between Intercity trains. A Cumbrian MP says it is frightening

:37:39.:37:44.

and unacceptable. Labour MP for Newcastle Central and Sunderland

:37:45.:37:49.

Conservative councillor, welcome to you both. Let's stop the economy.

:37:50.:37:55.

Signs are there is a recovery under way and that is official, but how

:37:56.:38:03.

true is it in our region? A survey was carried out of 100 firms. Six

:38:04.:38:08.

out of ten said they are feeling more confident in their own business

:38:09.:38:11.

and the wider economy, with half reporting growth in export revenues.

:38:12.:38:17.

Is that optimism reflected in your community? Well, it is absolutely

:38:18.:38:22.

great that the economy, despite this disastrous handling, is recovering

:38:23.:38:28.

up to 2008 levels, because that is where we are getting too, but in my

:38:29.:38:32.

constituency and everybody outside of the Cabinet macro, the cost of

:38:33.:38:36.

living crisis continues and it is getting harder, and people are not

:38:37.:38:43.

feeling that recovery, that sense of optimism in growth which the

:38:44.:38:45.

Chancellor and David Cameron like to talk so much about. Robert Oliver,

:38:46.:38:54.

what is the situation in Sunderland? It is certainly getting better and

:38:55.:38:58.

it is very important that the North East improves and catches up. In

:38:59.:39:02.

Sunderland, more than 12,000 private`sector jobs have been

:39:03.:39:05.

created and that is excellent. Mainly around the investment and

:39:06.:39:11.

success of Nissan. It will take time for the private sector to catch up

:39:12.:39:14.

but those are the incentives that the Government is trying to give at

:39:15.:39:18.

the moment. We are going to go into more detail about that now, because

:39:19.:39:22.

we have had more positive jobs news for Nestle in York, Hitachi and a

:39:23.:39:29.

few others. But can we create enough of those jobs to replace the tens of

:39:30.:39:33.

thousands lost in the public sector? How have we been doing?

:39:34.:39:39.

Protesters outside Middlesbrough town Hall this week. 20 of sound,

:39:40.:39:46.

quite a lot of fury. Because the council has announced 600 job

:39:47.:39:50.

losses, the latest in a whole raft of public sector cuts across the

:39:51.:39:55.

region. `` plenty of sound. So where are the jobs to replace them? Partly

:39:56.:40:01.

here. This firm in County Durham makes Craft supplies and also has

:40:02.:40:05.

bases in California and Holland. The boss, Sara, started it from her

:40:06.:40:09.

university bedroom and now employs many workers, some of which are from

:40:10.:40:17.

the public sector. It is a totally different pace working in the

:40:18.:40:20.

private sector from the public sector, which is what I think many

:40:21.:40:24.

of those staff have found, but it is so rewarding where you are not a

:40:25.:40:28.

tiny cog in a big wheel. Smaller companies need to not be frightened

:40:29.:40:32.

of taking on staff and instead of looking at the expense that comes

:40:33.:40:35.

with staff, look at the value staff can bring in. While this firm is

:40:36.:40:42.

taking on workers, many others are being axed in the region's public

:40:43.:40:47.

sector, so what do the numbers show? Since 2008, the region has lost

:40:48.:40:52.

42,000 public sector jobs. During the same period, 34,000

:40:53.:40:56.

private`sector jobs had been created, but that still leaves a

:40:57.:41:01.

shortfall of 8000 jobs. This week, Sara spoke to 150 other

:41:02.:41:05.

entrepreneurs at a conference in Darlington. These people have all

:41:06.:41:09.

been successful but how quickly can they create new jobs? Entrepreneurs

:41:10.:41:16.

are creating new businesses and employing more people but sometimes

:41:17.:41:19.

there is a time delay between creating businesses and then jobs.

:41:20.:41:23.

People coming from the public sector are extremely skilled and what they

:41:24.:41:26.

have to do is look at the skills that they have as well and see if it

:41:27.:41:30.

wasn't on the agenda immediately, whether they can become

:41:31.:41:35.

entrepreneurs. Which is exactly what Marjorie did. She has set up her own

:41:36.:41:41.

company providing similar services to her job working in

:41:42.:41:48.

anti`bullying. But now that is under threat. Some of them say, we would

:41:49.:41:52.

love to have your services in school but they don't have the money. It is

:41:53.:41:56.

very disappointing because you have to put effort into setting up a

:41:57.:42:00.

company and there are costs involved in that. I will be very sad if it

:42:01.:42:04.

comes to the point where I'd do have to close down the service. Yeah.

:42:05.:42:11.

Unions are concerned as well that the quality of some public sector

:42:12.:42:20.

jobs. What we're seeing is an increase in zero hours contracts and

:42:21.:42:23.

we know there is in excess of 1 million of those being used. And

:42:24.:42:28.

four in five of those private`sector jobs being created are paying low

:42:29.:42:32.

wages but what we want our good quality jobs with decent pay so

:42:33.:42:38.

people can live and not just exist. More job losses mean more protests

:42:39.:42:42.

but away from the placards and slogans, jobs are being created in

:42:43.:42:47.

the region. It is a fluctuating picture of losses and gains,

:42:48.:42:50.

sometimes hard to follow, but with the fate of our economy at stake.

:42:51.:42:56.

Economic growth is only just getting going but the private sector has

:42:57.:43:00.

already replaced many of the public sector jobs that have been lost. It

:43:01.:43:05.

is not the doomsday situation Labour would have had us believe? It is not

:43:06.:43:10.

a doomsday scenario but if you look at the detail, a lot of those

:43:11.:43:18.

private`sector jobs are public sector jobs that have been

:43:19.:43:21.

outsourced to the private sector. And many of those zero hours. It is

:43:22.:43:26.

not more efficient. It undermines security and doesn't allow people to

:43:27.:43:30.

plan for their families and their working lives and for their bill

:43:31.:43:33.

payments. But, remember, the important thing for the North East

:43:34.:43:37.

is that what this Chancellor promised was an export led,

:43:38.:43:41.

rebalanced recovery, a manufacturing recovery plane to our strengths.

:43:42.:43:46.

What we have instead is a recovery fuelled by a housing boom where the

:43:47.:43:49.

service sector is leading and that is why the jobs that need to be

:43:50.:43:53.

created are not being created in the North East and we still have the

:43:54.:43:57.

highest level of unemployment in the country. Roger Oliver, it is a fake

:43:58.:44:04.

boom and not creating the jobs we need? I would be more positive and

:44:05.:44:08.

say that the private sector is creating a lot of valuable and

:44:09.:44:15.

long`term jobs. We have the ports outside of Sunderland and time doing

:44:16.:44:19.

very well. And the motor sector as well. Those are creating very

:44:20.:44:24.

important jobs. They should rebalance the economy. But the

:44:25.:44:27.

reality is that we have lost more jobs than we have gained and there

:44:28.:44:30.

are hundreds, thousands more jobs to go and we are not out of the woods.

:44:31.:44:37.

The loss in the public sector has come quite quickly because of the

:44:38.:44:41.

reduction in finances to councils. That has happened and it will take

:44:42.:44:44.

time for the private sector to catch up with that, but actually the

:44:45.:44:49.

figures you have shown show that the private sector is catching up quite

:44:50.:44:54.

well. But what about the quality of these jobs? Is the TUC says, low

:44:55.:44:58.

paid, part`time, zero hours contracts? I think that is also to

:44:59.:45:04.

do with the change in the workforce globally. That some people might

:45:05.:45:08.

prefer part`time jobs or prefer to have that than no employment. And

:45:09.:45:13.

with a zero hours contracts, they can be good or bad. They have been

:45:14.:45:17.

around for some time and a lot of Labour councillors use the hours

:45:18.:45:20.

contracts. But some people might want to have one of those. Yes,

:45:21.:45:24.

think there is an issue where people would like more job security and

:45:25.:45:29.

that will come with strength in the economy. `` I think. But there is

:45:30.:45:33.

more to be done on that even though it will come. And as the economy

:45:34.:45:40.

takes off, they will be better off, those people, than sitting on the

:45:41.:45:44.

dole? I think it is very important not to failed to condemn the

:45:45.:45:54.

negative aspects of zero hours contracts. But when the Government

:45:55.:46:04.

stood back and waited to allow the private sector to create those jobs,

:46:05.:46:13.

they didn't have any plans for the North East, and we have people

:46:14.:46:17.

waiting for a signal in support in terms of the energy sector, the

:46:18.:46:23.

automotive sector... They are getting support. They are getting

:46:24.:46:28.

national insurer 's, cuts to their tax... You need to be making profits

:46:29.:46:37.

before a cut taxes helps you! What makes a difference right at the

:46:38.:46:42.

beginning is manufacturing allowances, which this Government

:46:43.:46:45.

slashed, and also business support, which the Labour government would

:46:46.:46:49.

bring in four small businesses. Things may be getting better, I

:46:50.:46:53.

think we would all agree to that. But people might get left behind and

:46:54.:46:58.

the North East will be left in the position further on where it is

:46:59.:47:05.

lacking. Think the big thing we need to address to make sure that the gap

:47:06.:47:11.

is narrowed its skills. You saw that in the Adonis report. That is one of

:47:12.:47:14.

the reasons we don't do as well as the rest of the country. A lot of

:47:15.:47:18.

jobs... I mean, I get employers say they have jobs for people but they

:47:19.:47:22.

just don't have the skills, so we must address that through education.

:47:23.:47:26.

And we will be discussing education in weeks to come. A Cumbrian MP has

:47:27.:47:32.

called for urgent action to make railway station is fully accessible

:47:33.:47:37.

for disabled people. Passengers in wheelchairs have to be pushed across

:47:38.:47:41.

the West Coast Main Line in areas and councillors have said it is

:47:42.:47:44.

unacceptable. Ministers say they are making ?100 million available for

:47:45.:47:50.

improvements between now and 2019 but many say the improvements are

:47:51.:47:54.

taking just too long. Penrith in North Cumbria. A busy

:47:55.:47:57.

station on the West Coast Main Line but not one that many disabled

:47:58.:48:02.

people can use. Elaine from Appleby has arthritis and cannot even walk

:48:03.:48:06.

short distances. Penrith is her nearest major station but she cannot

:48:07.:48:12.

use it. I am fairly sad, actually, because with it being my main

:48:13.:48:16.

station to get to London, I would like to use it. But it's not the

:48:17.:48:21.

going, it is the coming back. If you are heading south from Penrith

:48:22.:48:24.

access is fine. There are no steps between the car park and platform

:48:25.:48:29.

number one. But travelling from platform North, trains depart from

:48:30.:48:32.

platform number two. Getting down their impulse going down a steep set

:48:33.:48:44.

of stairs, along an underpass and then up more stairs on the other

:48:45.:48:47.

side. If you cannot do the stairs, you have to get someone to help you

:48:48.:48:50.

across the tracks over what is known as a barrow crossing. The station

:48:51.:48:53.

Manager applets it is not a good situation. It can be quite

:48:54.:48:55.

intimidating. `` the Station Manager ad mitts. But mobility scooters

:48:56.:49:04.

aren't even allowed over the tracks so Elaine travels all the way to

:49:05.:49:08.

Carlisle to catch trains, adding 20 miles to each journey. People

:49:09.:49:13.

without disabilities don't realise how hard it is and it does make you

:49:14.:49:17.

feel that really you should be able to cope and you can't cope. And they

:49:18.:49:24.

are just leaving you behind. Across the region, eight other stations

:49:25.:49:27.

still have barrow crossings, including Workington, Flynn beat,

:49:28.:49:38.

Appleby and Dent. Bardon Mill and Hexham are not set free and not

:49:39.:49:43.

being upgraded till next March. After a long campaign, Penrith has

:49:44.:49:47.

been nominated for funding from the Department for Transport to get

:49:48.:49:50.

lifts installed. But a decision will not be made until next April so the

:49:51.:49:56.

lobbying continues. We are going to get the money from somewhere. If we

:49:57.:50:00.

don't get it from the Government, we will get it from Virgin, and if not

:50:01.:50:07.

there, the transport Department. But this is the only station that

:50:08.:50:11.

doesn't have a disabled lift across this bit of the network. Penrith's

:50:12.:50:21.

success was said by one minister not to be guaranteed but it is a strong

:50:22.:50:27.

candidate, as they are due ?100 million for improvements. While this

:50:28.:50:30.

carries on, disabled passengers will have to cross the tracks or use

:50:31.:50:38.

other stations. We now have Baroness Tony Grey

:50:39.:50:41.

Thompson with us. What does this seem like to you? How familiar is

:50:42.:50:49.

it? It is incredibly familiar. Most people experience difficulty

:50:50.:50:52.

somewhere along the way, whether it is ramps not being used on buses or

:50:53.:50:57.

actually accessing trains. And one of the things that will happen with

:50:58.:51:02.

the change welfare reform and potentially up to 100,000 people

:51:03.:51:08.

losing mobility cars, it is not just about wheelchair users, it is about

:51:09.:51:12.

parents with young families, elderly people and making the public

:51:13.:51:16.

transport system open to everyone, and at the moment, it is not. The

:51:17.:51:21.

Government acknowledges this problem and that is why it is putting this

:51:22.:51:24.

money in. It is just a question of patience. They can't do everything

:51:25.:51:31.

at once. I think disabled people have been patient enough! It is

:51:32.:51:36.

important to recognise that these changes are expensive. 100 million

:51:37.:51:39.

sounds like a huge amount of money but it still won't make the rail

:51:40.:51:43.

network totally accessible. But it is about having a social life, a

:51:44.:51:47.

work life, being able to spend money and be a full member of society. If

:51:48.:51:51.

other people had to take a 20 mile the tour, I think that would do an

:51:52.:51:56.

awful lot more to encourage these changes to be made. `` detoured.

:51:57.:52:06.

Shouldn't it be companies like Virgin to put the money in rather

:52:07.:52:11.

than always taxpayers? Because it would benefit them? I am sure as

:52:12.:52:16.

part of their contracts, actually what you have to do at train

:52:17.:52:20.

stations is not part of that. I'd think it is just about taking a bit

:52:21.:52:24.

of a step back and thinking about who we want to be using public

:52:25.:52:28.

transport and making it better for everyone. And Baroness Cramer has

:52:29.:52:32.

offered to come on a train journey with me so I can show her some of

:52:33.:52:36.

the things disabled people face every day because I think unless

:52:37.:52:39.

they see it, they probably don't realise that you might be able to

:52:40.:52:42.

get to the platform but you also still often need help to get on and

:52:43.:52:49.

off the trains and there aren't accessible toilets. So it is a wider

:52:50.:52:54.

issue than putting in some ramps and a lift. It is scandalous that

:52:55.:52:59.

disabled people, people with mobility problems, older people or

:53:00.:53:07.

those with children have to struggle with trains? You have this split

:53:08.:53:17.

between railway lines and stations and trains and that has to be got

:53:18.:53:21.

over so the money is put in to make sure every railway station is

:53:22.:53:26.

accessible. Is it being done quickly enough? I don't think so. I would

:53:27.:53:32.

say that if you look at what we are spending money on, this is a

:53:33.:53:35.

priority over some of the other things we are doing. It is a result

:53:36.:53:44.

of the fragmentation of the network through the network privatisation

:53:45.:53:49.

and I have voice been proud that the metro system that was put in, the

:53:50.:53:53.

product of an integrated transport system, was the first light Railway

:53:54.:53:58.

accessible to disabled people. It is a disgrace that in this day and age

:53:59.:54:02.

in the region disabled people cannot travel as they need to and it is

:54:03.:54:06.

also an economic barrier for them. And we really do need to make sure

:54:07.:54:12.

that in terms of European legislation, the accessibility to

:54:13.:54:17.

public transport is right for disabled people and we need to make

:54:18.:54:21.

sure the rail industry comes together as much as it can in order

:54:22.:54:26.

to put this right. What is the one thing that could be done to make it

:54:27.:54:30.

easier for disabled people to travel as freely as possible? Is it an

:54:31.:54:33.

awareness when any improvements are made that disabled people's needs

:54:34.:54:39.

have to be taken into account? I think so. It is in terms of if there

:54:40.:54:44.

is any new build going on, that is easier to do rather than

:54:45.:54:47.

retrospectively coming in to make changes. But huge amount could be

:54:48.:54:52.

done to help staff coming in so disabled people can come and get on

:54:53.:54:55.

a train and they don't have to book, and making sure they are

:54:56.:54:59.

helped that the other end. Most of the complaints are received about

:55:00.:55:03.

train companies are those that leave disabled people on board, so there

:55:04.:55:06.

are lots of things we can do that don't have to cost a massive amount

:55:07.:55:11.

of. Thank you very much. Calls to set up a new political

:55:12.:55:17.

party for the North East and the local council is trying to did our

:55:18.:55:20.

street lights. Just some of the local news making the headlines.

:55:21.:55:31.

There's a need for a new political party in the North East along the

:55:32.:55:35.

lines of the Scottish and Welsh nationalists, according to the

:55:36.:55:40.

Labour MP Helston Dawson. We need real power in the hands of the North

:55:41.:55:45.

East people and the only way to do that that eye can see is to have a

:55:46.:55:50.

political party dedicated to that cause. `` I can. The leader of

:55:51.:55:56.

Durham Council is to take over as chair of the North East leadership

:55:57.:56:00.

board. It is a first step to getting all the councils to work together on

:56:01.:56:05.

economic growth. The Sunderland MP has attacked the Prime Minister's

:56:06.:56:09.

record on childcare. I have been disappointed that over 500 Sure

:56:10.:56:15.

Start Centres have closed since 2010. And finally, the lumiere

:56:16.:56:20.

festival lit up the skies and no street lights across parts of County

:56:21.:56:23.

Durham are to be dimmed after tempi at night and 45,000 streetlights

:56:24.:56:29.

will also be replaced. `` dimmed after 10pm.

:56:30.:56:35.

Robert Oliver, let's talk more about childcare. Labour has been on the

:56:36.:56:41.

offensive accusing David Cameron of breaking his promises. If you want

:56:42.:56:45.

more people in work, women in particular, making childcare more

:56:46.:56:48.

expensive and harder to find is hardly going to help, is it? This

:56:49.:56:59.

has been a problem of a reduction in number of childminders and

:57:00.:57:01.

increasing costs that has gone on for a number of years. I think one

:57:02.:57:07.

of the biggest problems really is supplied. There is a lack of supply

:57:08.:57:12.

and that is pushing up the cost. One of the things that can be done there

:57:13.:57:16.

is to broaden the supply a little bit by trying to allow schools to

:57:17.:57:21.

provide more childcare opportunities and to also make the training of

:57:22.:57:28.

childminders much easier. The reality is that the government has

:57:29.:57:32.

put more money into childcare since 2010. Labour quadruple but funding

:57:33.:57:39.

for child care and since 2010, the number of childcare places has gone

:57:40.:57:51.

down. `` labour quadrupled. The provision has gone down and there is

:57:52.:58:01.

greater demand but fewer places, and over 500 Sure Start Centres, the

:58:02.:58:05.

centres that David Cameron personally promised to support and

:58:06.:58:09.

to save, they have closed and closing at the rate of three a week.

:58:10.:58:13.

We will come back to that because there is a dispute on the figures.

:58:14.:58:18.

Labour, as understand, want to fund extra childcare but you're going to

:58:19.:58:22.

do it with this bank tax, which seems to pay for everything! That

:58:23.:58:28.

has been the accusation! Whereas we have been incredibly careful in

:58:29.:58:31.

terms of pricing every single proposal we have put forward, which

:58:32.:58:35.

is more than this Government has done, for what it is saying it is

:58:36.:58:39.

going to do after 2015, and we have called the office of the budget was

:58:40.:58:44.

once ability to look at manifesto promises. `` the Office for Budget

:58:45.:58:50.

Responsibility. So we want to have a wraparound childcare from 8am to 6pm

:58:51.:58:58.

and then childcare going up as basic provision for those under three.

:58:59.:59:06.

Those centres for those who need childcare the most and they are

:59:07.:59:11.

closing. I think to be fair to those centres, it is best to say there is

:59:12.:59:17.

some improvement in children's outcomes because they were extremely

:59:18.:59:20.

expensive and the outcomes are relatively small. So it is located

:59:21.:59:26.

close them? That is the choice councils. They are not being told to

:59:27.:59:30.

close them. They are having a reduced budget and within that they

:59:31.:59:33.

have to make the choices. But the problem with Sure Start Centres is

:59:34.:59:37.

that they don't focus enough on the really poor people who need them the

:59:38.:59:41.

most. They are often used by people who could afford childcare

:59:42.:59:45.

privately. Very briefly? In Newcastle let me tell you that the

:59:46.:59:50.

really poor people who need them the most really do appreciate that

:59:51.:59:54.

provision through Sure Start Centres and that work is particularly

:59:55.:59:59.

important in Newcastle. That is it from us. Next week we are turning

:00:00.:00:03.

the spotlight on education, asking why the performance of our secondary

:00:04.:00:06.

schools that's behind most other parts of the country. `` is behind.

:00:07.:00:11.

schools that's behind most other those people who want to cycle. We

:00:12.:00:14.

will be returning to this one. Thank you.

:00:15.:00:22.

A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this

:00:23.:00:29.

week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of

:00:30.:00:32.

taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other

:00:33.:00:35.

of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live

:00:36.:00:38.

tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the

:00:39.:00:48.

dispatch box. Let's have a look We have had some interesting

:00:49.:00:52.

interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break

:00:53.:00:56.

records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty,

:00:57.:01:01.

the former Labour security minister, saying that the public are

:01:02.:01:05.

desperate for a PM in waiting who speaks for them, not a Leader of the

:01:06.:01:10.

Opposition in dodging in partisan Westminster Village knock about So

:01:11.:01:15.

I would stay up with the tweets if you want to get on the right side of

:01:16.:01:20.

this one! We are working on how the Prime Minister managed to get that

:01:21.:01:24.

wheat in the first place. What did you think when you saw it being read

:01:25.:01:30.

out? I was certainly watching the Daily Politics. I almost fell off my

:01:31.:01:35.

chair! It was quite astonishing He didn't answer the question - he

:01:36.:01:40.

didn't do that the whole time. But I stand by what the tweets said. I

:01:41.:01:44.

have tweeted for a long time on PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed

:01:45.:01:50.

Miliband to the hilt, but no one announces that in Parliament!

:01:51.:01:54.

Because the Prime Minister picked up on what you said, it unleashed some

:01:55.:01:59.

attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very

:02:00.:02:04.

junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took

:02:05.:02:08.

issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't

:02:09.:02:15.

available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly

:02:16.:02:20.

forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a

:02:21.:02:24.

trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on

:02:25.:02:30.

its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how

:02:31.:02:38.

post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone

:02:39.:02:43.

talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am

:02:44.:02:47.

horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become

:02:48.:02:51.

about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things.

:02:52.:02:59.

Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf

:03:00.:03:03.

of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They

:03:04.:03:08.

then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that

:03:09.:03:12.

Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this

:03:13.:03:22.

great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures

:03:23.:03:27.

of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister.

:03:28.:03:30.

People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the

:03:31.:03:35.

Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that I'm

:03:36.:03:40.

just talking about the monster you have unleashed! I hope it dies a

:03:41.:03:48.

miserable death. I think Tony is a good analysis -- a good analyst of

:03:49.:03:53.

PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP,

:03:54.:04:05.

white you? I was a Co-op party member. There are two issues here

:04:06.:04:09.

about the Co-op and the Labour Party. All the new music suggests

:04:10.:04:14.

that the Co-op will now have to start pulling back from lending or

:04:15.:04:19.

donating to the Labour Party, which, at a time when Mr Miliband is going

:04:20.:04:23.

through changes that are going to cut of the union funds, it seems

:04:24.:04:28.

quite dangerous. There are three things going on. There's the

:04:29.:04:32.

relationship that the party has politically with the Co-op party,

:04:33.:04:36.

there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is

:04:37.:04:42.

this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody

:04:43.:04:47.

else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot

:04:48.:04:53.

of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around

:04:54.:04:59.

funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op

:05:00.:05:05.

issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it

:05:06.:05:11.

gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his

:05:12.:05:17.

private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative

:05:18.:05:20.

Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of

:05:21.:05:26.

speculation in the papers today At the core, the relationship between

:05:27.:05:30.

the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate

:05:31.:05:35.

one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even

:05:36.:05:40.

bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to

:05:41.:05:48.

exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it

:05:49.:05:58.

is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going

:05:59.:06:05.

to a hedge fund, I think I read Yes, there is a move from the

:06:06.:06:09.

mutualism of the Co-op. But don t confuse the Co-op bank with the

:06:10.:06:17.

Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft

:06:18.:06:24.

loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4

:06:25.:06:37.

million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the

:06:38.:06:41.

party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this

:06:42.:06:46.

very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft

:06:47.:06:52.

loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And

:06:53.:06:57.

these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link

:06:58.:07:02.

between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there

:07:03.:07:06.

could be real financial difficulties here. The government needs to be

:07:07.:07:10.

careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic

:07:11.:07:13.

blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to

:07:14.:07:17.

blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the

:07:18.:07:27.

problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in

:07:28.:07:32.

Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would

:07:33.:07:35.

make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a

:07:36.:07:39.

big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he

:07:40.:07:45.

wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of

:07:46.:07:48.

the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover.

:07:49.:07:51.

This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its

:07:52.:07:56.

balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the

:07:57.:08:01.

Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to outdo Labour in being more

:08:02.:08:09.

pro-Co-op. There was nobody in Westminster saying, hold on, this

:08:10.:08:14.

doesn't work. It is like the financial bubble all over again

:08:15.:08:17.

Everyone was in favour of that at the time. I think there is no

:08:18.:08:23.

evidence so far that the storm is cutting through to the average

:08:24.:08:27.

voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I would let it die a natural death. I

:08:28.:08:31.

would not write to an editorial column for a national newspaper on a

:08:32.:08:37.

Sunday. That keeps the issue alive, and it makes him look oversensitive

:08:38.:08:41.

and much better at dishing it out than taking it. I agree about that.

:08:42.:08:49.

The Labour press team tweeted this week saying that it was a new low

:08:50.:08:57.

for the times. And this was re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't

:08:58.:09:05.

a great press attitude. It is very Moni. Bill Clinton went out there

:09:06.:09:10.

and fought and made the case. So did Tony Blair. If you just say, they

:09:11.:09:15.

are being horrible to us, it looks pathetic. And it will cut through on

:09:16.:09:19.

Osborne and the financial dimensional is, not political. I

:09:20.:09:27.

shall tweet that later! While we have been talking, Mr Miliband has

:09:28.:09:35.

been on Desert Island Discs. He might still be on it. Let's have a

:09:36.:09:39.

listen to what he had to say. # Take on me, take me on.

:09:40.:09:57.

# And threw it all, she offers me protection.

:09:58.:10:01.

# A lot of love and affection. # Whether I'm right or wrong #.

:10:02.:10:24.

# Je Ne Regrette Rien. #. Obviously, that was the music that

:10:25.:10:29.

Ed Miliband chose. Who thought - you would have thought he would

:10:30.:10:34.

choose Norman Lamont's theme tune! He chose Jerusalem... He has no

:10:35.:10:45.

classical background at all. He had no Beethoven, no Elgar. David

:10:46.:10:56.

Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie, the fastest Notman in the West. --

:10:57.:11:07.

fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose the theme tune to a movie. Tony

:11:08.:11:13.

Blair's list was chosen by young staffers in his office. It

:11:14.:11:22.

absolutely was. Tony Blair's list was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband

:11:23.:11:27.

this was clearly chosen by himself, because who would allow politician

:11:28.:11:33.

to go out there and say that they like Aha. I am the same age as Ed

:11:34.:11:40.

Miliband, and of course he likes Aha. That was the tumour was played

:11:41.:11:52.

in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is Angels by Robbie Williams. I was

:11:53.:12:00.

14-year-old girl when that came out. I thought Angels was the staple of

:12:01.:12:04.

hen nights and chucking out time in pubs. The really good thing about

:12:05.:12:11.

his list is that the Smiths to not appear. The Smiths were all over

:12:12.:12:16.

David Cameron's list. The absolutely miserable music of Morris he was not

:12:17.:12:22.

there. What was his luxury? And Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for

:12:23.:12:29.

political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I

:12:30.:12:39.

would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on

:12:40.:12:44.

Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music.

:12:45.:12:47.

It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most

:12:48.:12:53.

embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing.

:12:54.:12:58.

I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from

:12:59.:13:11.

the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily

:13:12.:13:16.

Politics will be on BBC Two at lunchtime every day next week, and

:13:17.:13:19.

we'll be back here on BBC One at 11am next week. My luxury, by the

:13:20.:13:22.

way, was a wind-up radio! Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

:13:23.:13:23.

Politics.

:13:24.:13:31.

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss present the latest political stories, with Conservative chairman Grant Shapps and a look at Ed Miliband's choices for Desert Island Discs on Radio 4.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS