19/01/2014 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they Alexander whose side he's on.

make of the Lib Dems? We hear the views of a Sunday Politics focus

group. A In the North East:

budget cuts. In Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's

plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for

Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris

Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation

into the behaviour of the party s former chief executive, Lord

Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that

no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused

the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".

More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard

say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned

to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis

for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female

Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the

next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.

A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have

they made a complete mess of it You feel for Nick Clegg, because he

launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC

looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of

proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence

from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly

credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord

Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal

advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not

apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick

Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not

launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it

was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib

Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with

policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being

cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the

Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There

are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and

letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a

generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind

of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists

and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.

Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort

of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last

year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do

what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual

harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story

may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one

that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have

come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether

he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this

week. So it's not been a great week for

the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of

a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking

to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny

Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters

there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the

microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have

voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.

I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the

former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of

the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they

be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They

give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in

to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles

under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit not

top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.

A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I

think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else

was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too

concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that

is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.

The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place for

them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who

voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the

river by going to the coalition I think the ones, particularly student

fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.

I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you

think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is

feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib

Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a

Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The

Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I

mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the

Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,

?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.

Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone

who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has

mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows

him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it

straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly

and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy

is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him

that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise

him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in

Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming

referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like

they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are

last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue

in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems

are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all

about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together

campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the

future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do

not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you

will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award

bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own

person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what

would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get

the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If

they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe

they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing

the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve

another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some

hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of

bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior

Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander

Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the

focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic

recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What

can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy

would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it

was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,

stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would

still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not

getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to

hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that

the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.

People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a

generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold

that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets

this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in

the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the

people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not

even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British

politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted

to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they

cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this

morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It

may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories

that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent

lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax

cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right

that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do

several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no

complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need

to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of

the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on

low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have

now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the

minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low

pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the

Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some

time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why

did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the

Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going

to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses

start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An

increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.

We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is

important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor

was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say

something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the

tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise

that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade

unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.

So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter

for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I

don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I

don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before

it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We

were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing

the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been

lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty

way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they

don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are

there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,

our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven

you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that

didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition

fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought

up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we

delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't

forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut

income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting

money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible

because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the

Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through

looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made

sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree

to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest

in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the

Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for

the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish

leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with

Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.

If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial

position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the

rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a

disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the

Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the

national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a

coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the

national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting

the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now

seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We

will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record

to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up

the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the

Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does

so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic

recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government

or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust

with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European

Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this

country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the

UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British

government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would

be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee

the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them

down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on

to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every

month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this

point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the

guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was

no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was

to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in

what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for

separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is

on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher

interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question

on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There

were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.

Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where

you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable

reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their

salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I

would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we

have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .

I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there

can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though

ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its

balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get

twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different

position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS

hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at

what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could

be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a

bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS

has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris

Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies

every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this

as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair

Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what

happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been

considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that

and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has

been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the

Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the

Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the

disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We

are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of

Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of

complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.

The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what

action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We

as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to

change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told

that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House

of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and

welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord

Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and

welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to

deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of

apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if

that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard

should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not

forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the

end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I

hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override

Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The

failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the

stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is

totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord

Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a

ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC

who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has

followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the

standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence

he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and

responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here

is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows

there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for

something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished

report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should

apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the

Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by

the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an

inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he

opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a

Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,

you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if

there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported

Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be

made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there

now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic

things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper

inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper

report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from

this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris

Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits

are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be

advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough

enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the

answer to that. Generally governments are a bit

rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite

achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the

US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient

at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens

came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their

clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US

by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency

operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million

mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,

why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a

series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the

phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no

more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British

intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a

debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we

have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??

new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother

Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And

Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.

Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.

President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have

learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem

to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go

away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the

Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry

into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive

technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the

sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.

Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on

the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big

debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can

make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence

that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years

since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a

fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime

Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people

and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a

separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.

Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think

so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of

intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust

scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have

Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and

ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for

improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,

President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to

collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for

the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take

the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk

about the threat from terrorism it is all about travesty. There are

several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are

actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in

the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have

been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.

Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It

is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce

that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two

different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not

get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if

you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end

not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the

committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on

7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look

at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did

you not have them on the radar? The country, people will say, why did

agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be

subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about

Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular capability. Did you know about

basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some

of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did

you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to

get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we

had the capability to collect data, I knew and my committee knew that we

and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline

and these days, people do not write telephones, they use the Internet

and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up

with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal

framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google

and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.

In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in

the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are

secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different

door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence We

need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off The

final 30 seconds to you. As a result final 30 seconds to you. As a result

of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is

accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes

the debate if we need more change or the debate if we need more change or

not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the

people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to

11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that

dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Hello and welcome to the part of the

show for Cumbria and the north`east. This week, we are looking at whether

cuts in police officers could lead or even our leading already in a

growth in anti`social behaviour. We report from Middlesbrough and speak

to Cleveland's police commissioner. With me in the studio, a Labour MP

and the Conservatives, With me in the studio, a Labour MP

start with the surprise is that the Labour bash Labour leadership of

Northumbria county council wants to shut down this place, scattering

1000 's gaffe into local communities and saving perhaps ?130 million. Is

it an inspired move? Or is it a desperate one? My colleagues in

Northumberland would agree with me. The North is being

disproportionately hit by the cuts that this coalition are imposing.

Councils are having to think of different ways of managing services

and how best to meet the needs of their customers. What Northumberland

have done is they have looked across the board and thought, this suits us

in areas which Orrell. They've done the best they can under the

circumstances. ` which are rural. Is it time for councils to think more

imaginatively? Maybe people could work at home? Councils are thinking

imaginatively. Inside Shiels, they used to be boss of offices outside

of the town hall. They are now all coming into the town also those

buildings are freed up. Northumberland have done it in a way

which suits their local population in South `` and South Tyneside are

doing it so it suits them. Morpeth had been billed by the time I became

a counsellor. Is this a good idea? It is quite destabilising for the

time. It's fair enough as long as it is not a political thing. There are

arguments that this is an attempt to move more of the activities from

Northumberland, down to the south`east of the county. I think a

lot of rural communities, for instance, would be happy with this,

as long as, where people are going to be placed is going to be more

within those communities. Northumberland is essentially a

rural county and it needs to have services near to where people are.

When you have a building that costs nearly ?500,000 in heating alone in

a year, naturally, I think it is right they should be looking at that

building carefully. There are economies of scale, having a big

building and not having separate bills for different buildings. It

depends. When the district councils went, there were a lot of good

buildings available. What they've done with some of those is retained

them for one reason or another. I think it is perfectly all right to

do this and after all, they have to cut their cloth. They are very big

spenders. The government has got massive debts. They have got debts.

We will see what happens. Can we fight crime with less money

and fewer police? 200 officers were announced... On Teeside, there are

now fewer wardens and community support officers on the streets.

Some say it is already leading to a rise in anti`social behaviour.

This Teeside pet shop has lots of pets but whilst business is good,

problems in the streets around have made life difficult. This is where

they set fire to the place twice now. As you can see, the floor, the

walls, they pushed the bin up against the wall. They've also done

it up against our back door as well. It's been on a number of

occasions now. We have a flat above us. It is potentially lethal. Others

are equally worried. They say getting help from the police or

council is increasingly difficult. Motorbikes driving up the street,

people arguing and general noise. It's getting bad. How easy is it to

get help? It is harder to get help and when you know where to phone the

police, they will pass you on to someone else. They pass the buck all

the time. In Middlesbrough, anti`social behaviour has long been

a big issue. The time's collected air `` Mayor has made fighting it

his personal mission. Now, this battle has been affected by

austerity. In that battle to keep communities safer, the street

wardens have been crucial. While they `` there used to be more than

70 pounding the pavements, there are now just 15. The council struggles

to make savings. It is sad that people have lost their jobs. It is

happening across the council. We need the community to report

things, being vigilant. We will try, despite the ?67 million cuts, to

mitigate the problem is people in the time. Problem is that the

special constables volunteer their time to solve. `` problems.

Cleveland Police wants to double the number of special constables to

nearly 200. Full`time officers will be down more than 20% over six

years. Community support officers will take a similar hit. Our

communities may see less of us and fewer yellow coats in terms of

police officers or community support officers over the next two years,

but our commitment is that we will do everything we can to maintain the

safety of our communities. Last year, recorded crime continued to

fall across the region. In Cleveland, anti`social behaviour was

slightly up. If you are going to reduce the number of police

officers, it will have an affect on anti`social behaviour. There are

some areas that, purely because of a lack of resources, are not going to

get the policing that they deserve. Labour's Police Commissioner for the

area has also warned that cuts could threaten public safety. A message

dismissed as scaremongering by the Conservatives. The Police and Crime

Commissioner in Cleveland lives in a fantasyland. He claims that

everything is going well, recognises that crime is falling, that public

satisfaction is getting better. On the other, he says the next of cuts

are going to be the ones that are terrible. The fact is, it's not

easy. He's not paid to do his job because it's easy. There are

challenges that we need to face and we need to deal with them to balance

the books. So far, all the evidence is that in Cleveland, and in forces

across the country, they are finding ways to do more with less. So, can

crime and spending continue to be cut at the same time? Whatever the

answer, its impact will be felt both politically and in streets like

these. The man James Wharton was referring

to is Barry Coffin Joe. James Wharton says you are living in a

fantasy land. I have lived in the fantasyland that has been called

leaders `` Cleveland all my life and I've seen changes over the years but

these are the most difficult financial services `` circumstances

we've ever had. We are trying to do the best we can with the resources

that are being drastically reduced by central government. That being

said, police officers are extremely dedicated and professional. I've

seen officers across the Cleveland area working over the past 12 months

or so and they are doing their best. Although crime was rising over the

summer, we are getting it under control and we have made reductions

over the winter period. Progress is being made. The central point is

that progress is being made. The impression that public will get is

you could manage with less and you have done. We've done the best we

can with diminishing resources. I think it is sad that with a little

bit more, we could do so much more. We are dying to basic crime fighting

now. We are down to working with neighbourhoods, we are down to

working with local residents. In fact, I was speaking to residents

just this week and some excellent work is going on around

neighbourhood watch and neighbourhood policing. To properly

tackle crime and disorder in its widest sense and on a long`term

basis, we need to do more than just react. This is the problem, isn't

it? Doesn't it worry you that that community seems to think that if

they ring the police about low`level incidents, they might get ignored? I

am sorry if they feel that is the case. Cleveland Police receive

around 800 calls a day and we have an incident management team in place

now that works to that job queue, to make sure the most important calls

get the swiftest response. They have to make those priority decisions. Is

the message that if things are low`level, it doesn't matter?

Low`level crime makes people feel in securing the committees. It might

not seem the most important, but if people are frightened to go out

because they feel unsafe, that's a problem, isn't it? There is never a

call that doesn't matter. Every call that comes in matters. It is a

question of the response and how we make the best use of the limited

resources with God. Neighbourhood policing is effective across the

Cleveland area they have a very high opinion of the work that Cleveland

Police do. That's very encouraging. They are working harder and harder

every day to keep the people of Cleveland say. We could do so much

more. People will judge all record as a Commissioner after a few years.

Would you take the rap if crime goes up? If crime goes up, that will be

for several different reasons but the government are not helping by

reducing funding. I have spoken to residents across the Cleveland area.

In all sectors, this button to Rotary clubs, residents groups,

neighbourhood action groups. `` I have spoken to Rotary clubs. If we

had more resources, we could make a real difference. We are reacting to

crime but we need to do more proactively.

There are worrying signs from communities who are noticing a

difference in the police service, despite what we hear about cats

making no difference. One has to look at the statistics as well as

the stories. Crime is falling. It has been falling in a number of the

northern regions. We certainly saw it in Northumberland, where crime

has been down around 10%. We have seen it in Yorkshire. We are now

seeing it in Cleveland and yes, it's true, there are pressures. There is

no doubt, we have two... We haven't got the resources. Whatever the

figures show, would you accept that there is a problem if, as we heard

in Cleveland, there are less obvious police officers around? If people

don't feel safe going out of their homes, that is a big problem. Yes

but in fact of `` the police chiefs have been making it clear that they

are not going to allow people to suffer in that way. We are in fact

seeing a maintenance of that sharp end. It's in quite a lot of outdated

buildings, for instance. I think that is commendable. Crime is

undoubtedly falling. That is obviously a tribute to the police as

well. It is something that I think we should bear in mind. If we had

listened to Labour, they said you cannot do this, crime will rise etc.

Actually, we would not have saved the money we have? To be perfectly

honest, Labour had a plan to put in cuts 12% across the parliament. That

was approved by H MCI. We are now seeing that there are lice `` less

crime is being solved nationally than would have been. Fewer crimes

are being sold under this government. In Northumbria, crime

has risen. My anti`social behaviour has gone down that crime has risen

and we have 400 fewer police officers on the streets.

Northumbria's Chief Constable has said that the current set of

savings, she can manage without and still deliver a good service to the

public. I believe that she and our police and crime commission are

doing everything they can. They are looking at back`office functions. I

don't know how much longer that can continue. Do you believe her? I have

every faith that she can deliver that but what happens next year when

there are more cuts? How long can this keep going on? The

Conservatives are talking about making more public savings after

2015. We have to balance the books. That is the whole point. Even to the

point where communities are suffering. There is not that

evidence, I'm afraid. The Labour Party has all kinds of funny

statistics. The truth is... The statistics are funny, the

circumstances people living may not be. I can tell you this, that we

have to balance those books. We have got falling crime. We want to

continue with that and we want the sharp end not to be affected by

whatever cuts have to come from government. If you were really

concerned about this, they did would be committed to reversing the cuts

and you are not, are you? I cannot make any commitments like that. I'm

a backbencher. We are not aware of what we will inherit in 2015. We

don't have a manifesto yet. We are in opposition. We hold the

government to account and that is what I am doing. And labour's plan,

we would not be seeing what we are seeing now because our plan was 12%

cuts. You mustn't worry people necessarily when the figures are

going down. Rivals on the football pitch but

surely Sunderland and Newcastle councils could work together. The

two local authorities are in the process of setting up a so`called

combined authority, where they would work together to boost the region.

It has been a process, unfortunately, fraught with

difficulty. Two cities, two rivers, two football clubs.

The Tyne Wear rivalry dates a long way back. Newcastle and

Sunderland's first serious confrontation was in the English

Civil War. It might be hard to imagine today but in six and 44,

this village was the scene of a battle between those from Newcastle

and soldiers from Sunderland. 370 years on, people from the two cities

are trying to diss that are not trying to disembowel each other any

more but the question is, can rivalries like that be gotten rid

of? That is the idea. It would seek closer cooperation between the two

councils as well as those in Northumberland, Gateshead, Durham

and North and South Tyneside. Each individual council would still

provide more local services but they would work together on boosting the

economy and transport. It is due to start in April. It all sounds great,

except Sunderland Council has been reluctant to sign up. What we need

to know is what it will look like, what it will cost and what the

constitution would be like. When we have a new chief executive to run

it? It needs a chief financial officer. All of a sudden, you can

see the costs are escalating. We need some surety about what we are

getting ourselves. The question is, why Sunderlandqualms so potentially

lethal? Without Sunderland, it simply won't happen. And so with

South Tyneside also special diets, the signals have not been looking

good. That has left business leaders worried. Our politicians... We

clearly need to get our act together in this region, to talk with one

voice, to make sure that we can get the maximum benefit out of

everything that is happening for the north`east economy at present. The

fact that one, possibly to authorities, are walking away from

that opportunity does real damage to the north`east. It really makes

Westminster look at us as a divided region, that cannot work together

and cannot make things happen. There are other concerns. A combined

authority would be run by cat `7 council leaders, all at the moment

Labour politicians. Some fear a 1`party state. It's all very good

because you'll only get one voice in terms of a party line. It's not

going to be very rigorous if you've not got different voices there to

challenge it, to ask it to look at different things. They must make

sure that any decisions are properly scrutinised. Hopefully, nobody has

come to blows this week. It seems long`standing rivalries have not

been consigned to history just yet. This doesn't reflect well on the

region or Labour. Seven Labour council leaders cannot get their act

together. I don't think it is that they cannot get their act together.

I want the best for the north`east. The council leaders want the best as

well. The problem is, the secretary of state only gave two months for

them to consult and meet to discuss this. That was over Christmas. I

think it is perfectly reasonable for council leaders to be saying, what

is it that we are going to lose in this agreement and what is it that

we are going to gain? Let's get into the detail of this before we sign

up. Two months is enough to start to come up with some of the answers. It

seems ridiculous. There is a dereliction of duty when they have

known it was going to start in April. I'd disagree. It's a

dereliction of the secretary of state's duty. They are asking for

the detail and it is not coming forward. I don't see how you can

blame that on the council leaders. The problem here... This is six bald

man and a woman fighting over a comb, isn't it? There is not much in

this. It does matter. The authority is not there to take away council

functions. We will still have our local councils. Manchester has

managed to get to do this, get together. Everyone was happy to get

together to do things like deal with a major strategic issues. All of the

country, we are looking at evolving away from the central government. We

are trying to devolve properly so that these decisions can be taken

nearer to the people. It seems to me that if the representatives of the

people... All men, or Labour, that if the representatives of the

There is one woman. If they cannot get their act together or get

agreement for a region as important as this, then it is a very great

shame indeed. We wouldn't have this problem if your party hadn't

deconstructed the regional bodies like the one in a north`east which

was doing well creating jobs. No, we can `` deconstructed the bodies for

a lot of reasons. One was because we didn't feel they were creating what

we needed. We needed to have more localism is with local authorities,

more directly involved with businesses, through the local

enterprise partnerships coming in as well. That combination is what the

north`east and the regions one. We need that kind of approach. That is

what is good for people. The danger is that the North East looks...

Westminster is entitled to say you are not getting your act together.

Look at Manchester in contrast. I don't think that will happen because

the spirit is still there. Everybody wants this to work. You sure about

that? Yes, I am sure. Going back to the point about one north`east. The

coalition couldn't wait to get rid of that. The legacy there was that

150,000 jobs were safeguarded and protected and created under that and

yet the government thought they would get rid of it. Why? The

government has rubbed `` behaved responsibly in bringing those albums

together. The police are not the only emergency service trying to do

that same with less. The Fire Service is facing big changes which

are worrying many MPs. Penrith and the board and, Rory

Stewart, is looking at what more can be done for veterans who are ending

up in prison. It `` he will look at the support for ex`service

personnel. Andy McDonald says he is gravely concerned about cuts to

Cleveland Fire Service. A consultation document proposes a

reduction in services and the loss of 76 full`time jobs. There are also

cuts to Fire Services in Cumbria and Tyne Wear. For people dying per

day within six months of being declared six `` fit for work. Will

he come back to this house and apologised to the families of the

deceased who have suffered unnecessarily in their last precious

days? Finally, the threat to bus services in Cumbria has angered

local residents. Almost 1700 people have signed a petition which has

been handed in urging them not to bus `` CardBus subsidies.

`` cut bus subsidies. That's it from us. Tomorrow evening

on BBC One, we report on rising fuel bills and the impact on households

in the North. That's a big issue. We are here as usual, at the same time

next Sunday. For now, back to Andrew.

houses being built by the mayor Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.

Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of

the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first

appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in

action. APPLAUSE

Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving

for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into

the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now

the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what

about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed

Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the

programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering

her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the

local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,

can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next

series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there

is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local

MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.

They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big

opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity

television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in

her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not

think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on

Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is

not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a

local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a

minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for

Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that

Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in

shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional

growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding

streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly

coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this

opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime

economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next

election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal

Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working

together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on

these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure

that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not

the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince

Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am

making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.

I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper

opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.

How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?

Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven

years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a

pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is

interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east

they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown

as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,

and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is

more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a

marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on

the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under

a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he

had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual

competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them

will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,

setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit

consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next

election as the party of competition, the party of the

consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.

They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the

next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the

party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the

party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual

competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling

banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller

ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that

this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who

think that through interfering with the market, through his price

freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this

before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise

of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is

creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets

Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work

There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.

Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in

those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were

suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In

the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.

That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our

bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into

account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers

are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it

is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece

that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and

the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in

the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets

to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim

Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as

the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.

There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In

banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour

government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy

Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a

clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to

purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European

Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to

this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I

shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that

disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,

and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness

that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,

or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.

So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking

to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too

late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is

causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last

year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that

UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the

retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best

interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage

is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who

are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the

party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his

word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel

Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of

UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,

they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper

organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The

European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy

with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things

like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against

the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like

that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about

climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big

protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots

of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the

only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the

first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a

conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David

Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I

think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the

only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice

they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,

it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this

week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing

between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats

and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,

I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the

issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord

Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.

Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday

on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,

it is the Sunday Politics.