20/11/2016 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


20/11/2016

Andrew Neil and Richard Moss hear from the candidates for the Ukip leadership and look ahead to the chancellor's Autumn Statement.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

:00:41.:00:44.

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

:00:45.:00:48.

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

:00:49.:00:50.

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

:00:51.:01:03.

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

:01:04.:01:10.

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

:01:11.:01:14.

Here: Does Ukip really pose a threat to Labour dominance

:01:15.:01:17.

And claims housing benefit changes might prevent some people

:01:18.:01:21.

in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

:01:22.:01:29.

is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

:01:30.:01:38.

And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

:01:39.:01:41.

the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,

:01:42.:01:46.

dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:47.:01:48.

and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:49.:01:51.

First this morning - Theresa May has said

:01:52.:01:57.

"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

:01:58.:01:59.

who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

:02:00.:02:02.

Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

:02:03.:02:10.

the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

:02:11.:02:17.

Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

:02:18.:02:27.

deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

:02:28.:02:33.

100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

:02:34.:02:36.

making a success of Brexit for the country.

:02:37.:02:39.

We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,

:02:40.:02:43.

have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

:02:44.:02:50.

coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

:02:51.:02:54.

face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

:02:55.:02:58.

when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

:02:59.:03:04.

for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

:03:05.:03:11.

membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

:03:12.:03:16.

we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

:03:17.:03:19.

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

:03:20.:03:24.

the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:25.:03:29.

both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

:03:30.:03:32.

clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

:03:33.:03:37.

review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

:03:38.:03:44.

you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

:03:45.:03:47.

membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

:03:48.:03:52.

British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

:03:53.:03:55.

trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

:03:56.:04:03.

Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

:04:04.:04:06.

this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

:04:07.:04:12.

And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

:04:13.:04:15.

what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

:04:16.:04:20.

at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

:04:21.:04:25.

union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

:04:26.:04:28.

other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

:04:29.:04:33.

preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

:04:34.:04:43.

carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

:04:44.:04:46.

have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

:04:47.:04:52.

you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

:04:53.:04:56.

not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

:04:57.:05:00.

moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

:05:01.:05:05.

cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

:05:06.:05:08.

with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

:05:09.:05:14.

Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

:05:15.:05:18.

still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade

:05:19.:05:22.

agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

:05:23.:05:29.

with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

:05:30.:05:33.

the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

:05:34.:05:38.

most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

:05:39.:05:41.

Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

:05:42.:05:46.

right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

:05:47.:05:54.

a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

:05:55.:06:00.

binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

:06:01.:06:02.

Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

:06:03.:06:09.

am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

:06:10.:06:17.

said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

:06:18.:06:22.

constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

:06:23.:06:26.

securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

:06:27.:06:30.

we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

:06:31.:06:34.

if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

:06:35.:06:40.

deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

:06:41.:06:55.

you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

:06:56.:06:59.

substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

:07:00.:07:03.

to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

:07:04.:07:06.

single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

:07:07.:07:11.

to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

:07:12.:07:19.

business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

:07:20.:07:23.

between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

:07:24.:07:27.

but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

:07:28.:07:32.

our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly

:07:33.:07:37.

to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

:07:38.:07:41.

that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

:07:42.:07:46.

agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

:07:47.:07:50.

we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

:07:51.:07:56.

sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

:07:57.:08:01.

industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

:08:02.:08:05.

but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

:08:06.:08:09.

Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%

:08:10.:08:19.

tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

:08:20.:08:23.

goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

:08:24.:08:28.

the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

:08:29.:08:34.

Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules

:08:35.:08:38.

of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

:08:39.:08:44.

50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

:08:45.:08:49.

free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.

:08:50.:08:50.

Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

:08:51.:08:59.

not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

:09:00.:09:04.

messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

:09:05.:09:09.

campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

:09:10.:09:15.

this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

:09:16.:09:20.

side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

:09:21.:09:24.

the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

:09:25.:09:27.

through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

:09:28.:09:33.

to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

:09:34.:09:39.

amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

:09:40.:09:42.

hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

:09:43.:09:47.

Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

:09:48.:09:51.

union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

:09:52.:09:58.

the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

:09:59.:10:01.

faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

:10:02.:10:07.

Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

:10:08.:10:10.

but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

:10:11.:10:16.

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

:10:17.:10:21.

Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

:10:22.:10:24.

the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

:10:25.:10:30.

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

:10:31.:10:34.

market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

:10:35.:10:38.

services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

:10:39.:10:45.

can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

:10:46.:10:48.

saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

:10:49.:10:56.

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

:10:57.:11:05.

a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

:11:06.:11:10.

to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

:11:11.:11:14.

for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

:11:15.:11:26.

want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

:11:27.:11:33.

it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

:11:34.:11:38.

150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

:11:39.:11:43.

have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

:11:44.:11:47.

what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

:11:48.:11:55.

Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

:11:56.:11:57.

also means quitting the

:11:58.:11:58.

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

:11:59.:12:00.

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

:12:01.:12:02.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

:12:03.:12:04.

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

:12:05.:12:06.

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

:12:07.:12:09.

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

:12:10.:12:18.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

:12:19.:12:22.

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

:12:23.:12:26.

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

:12:27.:12:28.

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

:12:29.:12:30.

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

:12:31.:12:42.

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

:12:43.:12:44.

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

:12:45.:12:48.

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:12:49.:12:50.

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

:12:51.:12:53.

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

:12:54.:12:59.

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

:13:00.:13:05.

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

:13:06.:13:07.

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

:13:08.:13:12.

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

:13:13.:13:18.

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

:13:19.:13:21.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

:13:22.:13:34.

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

:13:35.:13:37.

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

:13:38.:13:46.

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

:13:47.:13:50.

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

:13:51.:13:54.

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

:13:55.:13:58.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

:13:59.:14:02.

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

:14:03.:14:08.

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

:14:09.:14:10.

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

:14:11.:14:14.

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

:14:15.:14:20.

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

:14:21.:14:23.

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,

:14:24.:14:28.

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The

:14:29.:14:32.

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.

:14:33.:14:36.

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

:14:37.:14:41.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

:14:42.:14:45.

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

:14:46.:14:50.

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

:14:51.:14:55.

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would

:14:56.:14:59.

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

:15:00.:15:03.

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

:15:04.:15:07.

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

:15:08.:15:13.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

:15:14.:15:18.

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

:15:19.:15:21.

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

:15:22.:15:25.

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

:15:26.:15:29.

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

:15:30.:15:33.

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

:15:34.:15:39.

accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full

:15:40.:15:45.

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

:15:46.:15:49.

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

:15:50.:15:57.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

:15:58.:15:59.

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

:16:00.:16:01.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:02.:16:07.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

:16:08.:16:12.

It's not the EU which is

:16:13.:16:13.

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

:16:14.:16:17.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

:16:18.:16:20.

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

:16:21.:16:23.

economy in the world is not going to come to come

:16:24.:16:26.

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

:16:27.:16:27.

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

:16:28.:16:30.

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

:16:31.:16:34.

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

:16:35.:16:47.

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

:16:48.:16:51.

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

:16:52.:16:55.

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

:16:56.:16:58.

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

:16:59.:17:03.

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

:17:04.:17:06.

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

:17:07.:17:10.

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

:17:11.:17:12.

think he was about axis, he is talking

:17:13.:17:30.

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

:17:31.:17:33.

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

:17:34.:17:35.

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

:17:36.:17:38.

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

:17:39.:17:41.

Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,

:17:42.:17:43.

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

:17:44.:17:45.

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

:17:46.:17:48.

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

:17:49.:17:49.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

:17:50.:17:52.

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

:17:53.:17:54.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

:17:55.:17:59.

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

:18:00.:18:02.

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

:18:03.:18:05.

for some business people. But then again for voters

:18:06.:18:07.

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

:18:08.:18:11.

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

:18:12.:18:14.

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

:18:15.:18:26.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

:18:27.:18:28.

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

:18:29.:18:32.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

:18:33.:18:36.

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

:18:37.:18:39.

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

:18:40.:18:43.

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

:18:44.:18:48.

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

:18:49.:18:54.

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

:18:55.:18:59.

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

:19:00.:19:02.

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

:19:03.:19:04.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

:19:05.:19:07.

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't

:19:08.:19:14.

run. There is absolutely

:19:15.:19:15.

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

:19:16.:19:17.

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

:19:18.:19:18.

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

:19:19.:19:23.

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

:19:24.:19:32.

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

:19:33.:19:35.

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

:19:36.:19:38.

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

:19:39.:19:47.

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

:19:48.:19:52.

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

:19:53.:20:02.

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

:20:03.:20:06.

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

:20:07.:20:09.

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

:20:10.:20:13.

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

:20:14.:20:17.

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

:20:18.:20:20.

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

:20:21.:20:24.

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

:20:25.:20:28.

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

:20:29.:20:32.

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

:20:33.:20:35.

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

:20:36.:20:39.

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

:20:40.:20:43.

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

:20:44.:20:48.

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

:20:49.:20:52.

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

:20:53.:20:55.

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

:20:56.:20:58.

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

:20:59.:21:03.

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

:21:04.:21:06.

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

:21:07.:21:10.

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

:21:11.:21:14.

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

:21:15.:21:17.

membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you

:21:18.:21:20.

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

:21:21.:21:23.

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

:21:24.:21:30.

promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

:21:31.:21:34.

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

:21:35.:21:37.

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

:21:38.:21:41.

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You

:21:42.:21:47.

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

:21:48.:21:49.

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

:21:50.:21:52.

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

:21:53.:21:56.

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

:21:57.:21:59.

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

:22:00.:22:02.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

:22:03.:22:06.

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

:22:07.:22:10.

us out of our biggest trading partner.

:22:11.:22:13.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

:22:14.:22:14.

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

:22:15.:22:16.

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

:22:17.:22:19.

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

:22:20.:22:22.

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

:22:23.:22:24.

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

:22:25.:22:27.

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

:22:28.:22:43.

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

:22:44.:22:53.

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

:22:54.:23:01.

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

:23:02.:23:03.

female Diane James. The European Parliament

:23:04.:23:05.

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

:23:06.:23:19.

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

:23:20.:23:22.

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

:23:23.:23:25.

during a meeting. A few days later he is

:23:26.:23:27.

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

:23:28.:23:29.

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

:23:30.:23:33.

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?

:23:34.:23:37.

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

:23:38.:23:43.

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

:23:44.:23:46.

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

:23:47.:23:51.

over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,

:23:52.:23:58.

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

:23:59.:24:01.

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

:24:02.:24:09.

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

:24:10.:24:13.

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

:24:14.:24:18.

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

:24:19.:24:20.

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

:24:21.:24:23.

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

:24:24.:24:28.

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

:24:29.:24:31.

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

:24:32.:24:45.

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

:24:46.:24:48.

is they just basically sit there until six months before

:24:49.:24:51.

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

:24:52.:24:54.

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

:24:55.:24:56.

there is not an adequate flow of communication

:24:57.:24:58.

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

:24:59.:25:00.

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

:25:01.:25:09.

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

:25:10.:25:13.

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

:25:14.:25:15.

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

:25:16.:25:18.

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

:25:19.:25:20.

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

:25:21.:25:23.

that is something that Our members are not

:25:24.:25:26.

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

:25:27.:25:31.

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

:25:32.:25:34.

the future What method would you use

:25:35.:25:36.

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

:25:37.:25:39.

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

:25:40.:25:42.

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

:25:43.:25:46.

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

:25:47.:25:52.

in favour of This is such a small aspect

:25:53.:25:54.

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

:25:55.:25:58.

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

:25:59.:26:00.

details. This is one vote that

:26:01.:26:06.

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

:26:07.:26:08.

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

:26:09.:26:12.

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

:26:13.:26:15.

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

:26:16.:26:19.

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

:26:20.:26:22.

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

:26:23.:26:29.

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

:26:30.:26:38.

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

:26:39.:26:41.

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

:26:42.:26:44.

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

:26:45.:26:46.

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

:26:47.:26:49.

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

:26:50.:27:03.

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

:27:04.:27:13.

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

:27:14.:27:17.

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

:27:18.:27:20.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

:27:21.:27:22.

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

:27:23.:27:27.

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

:27:28.:27:30.

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

:27:31.:27:34.

need to attract more women, more ethnic

:27:35.:27:54.

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

:27:55.:27:56.

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

:27:57.:28:00.

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

:28:01.:28:02.

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

:28:03.:28:04.

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

:28:05.:28:06.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

:28:07.:28:09.

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

:28:10.:28:12.

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

:28:13.:28:14.

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

:28:15.:28:17.

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

:28:18.:28:19.

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

:28:20.:28:21.

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

:28:22.:28:26.

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

:28:27.:28:28.

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

:28:29.:28:35.

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

:28:36.:28:39.

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

:28:40.:28:43.

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

:28:44.:28:47.

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

:28:48.:28:51.

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

:28:52.:28:55.

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

:28:56.:29:00.

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

:29:01.:29:03.

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

:29:04.:29:07.

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

:29:08.:29:10.

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

:29:11.:29:21.

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

:29:22.:29:23.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

:29:24.:29:25.

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

:29:26.:29:28.

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I

:29:29.:29:31.

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

:29:32.:29:34.

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

:29:35.:29:39.

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

:29:40.:29:43.

be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better

:29:44.:29:46.

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

:29:47.:29:50.

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

:29:51.:29:54.

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

:29:55.:29:58.

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

:29:59.:30:01.

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

:30:02.:30:08.

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

:30:09.:30:12.

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

:30:13.:30:16.

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

:30:17.:30:22.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

:30:23.:30:25.

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

:30:26.:30:30.

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

:30:31.:30:33.

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

:30:34.:30:36.

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

:30:37.:30:42.

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

:30:43.:30:47.

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The

:30:48.:30:50.

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

:30:51.:30:54.

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

:30:55.:30:59.

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

:31:00.:31:05.

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

:31:06.:31:08.

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

:31:09.:31:11.

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

:31:12.:31:17.

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

:31:18.:31:21.

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

:31:22.:31:24.

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

:31:25.:31:26.

2020. The other thing your leader has in

:31:27.:31:36.

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

:31:37.:31:42.

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

:31:43.:31:49.

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

:31:50.:31:53.

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

:31:54.:31:59.

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

:32:00.:32:05.

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

:32:06.:32:09.

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

:32:10.:32:13.

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

:32:14.:32:21.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

:32:22.:32:24.

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

:32:25.:32:32.

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

:32:33.:32:35.

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

:32:36.:32:41.

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

:32:42.:32:45.

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

:32:46.:32:49.

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

:32:50.:32:52.

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

:32:53.:32:56.

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

:32:57.:32:59.

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

:33:00.:33:08.

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

:33:09.:33:12.

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

:33:13.:33:15.

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

:33:16.:33:20.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

:33:21.:33:26.

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

:33:27.:33:33.

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

:33:34.:33:36.

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

:33:37.:33:39.

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,

:33:40.:33:46.

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

:33:47.:33:54.

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

:33:55.:33:58.

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

:33:59.:34:03.

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

:34:04.:34:08.

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

:34:09.:34:12.

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

:34:13.:34:16.

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

:34:17.:34:20.

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

:34:21.:34:24.

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

:34:25.:34:29.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

:34:30.:34:36.

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

:34:37.:34:39.

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

:34:40.:34:43.

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

:34:44.:34:45.

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

:34:46.:34:52.

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

:34:53.:34:56.

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

:34:57.:35:00.

fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our

:35:01.:35:10.

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

:35:11.:35:14.

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

:35:15.:35:19.

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

:35:20.:35:25.

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

:35:26.:35:28.

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

:35:29.:35:34.

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

:35:35.:35:38.

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

:35:39.:35:43.

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

:35:44.:35:47.

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

:35:48.:35:53.

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

:35:54.:36:00.

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

:36:01.:36:05.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

:36:06.:36:09.

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

:36:10.:36:14.

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

:36:15.:36:19.

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

:36:20.:36:34.

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

:36:35.:36:42.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

:36:43.:36:47.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:48.:36:51.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:36:52.:36:54.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:36:55.:37:03.

Hello and a very warm welcome to your local part of the show

:37:04.:37:06.

This week, a Tyneside charity warns that government changes to housing

:37:07.:37:11.

benefit could prevent some people from furnishing their homes.

:37:12.:37:16.

Also coming up, can Ukip under a new leader really win Labour-held

:37:17.:37:19.

I'll be asking my guests, the Labour Peer Jeremy Beecham

:37:20.:37:25.

and Ukip North East Euro-MP Jonathan Arnott.

:37:26.:37:28.

Also talking about all that and ward closures at her local

:37:29.:37:31.

hospital in Northumberland is the Conservative MP

:37:32.:37:33.

But let's start with high speed rail.

:37:34.:37:38.

This week the government set out its preferred route to take HS2

:37:39.:37:41.

Ministers say passengers in the North East and Cumbria

:37:42.:37:46.

will benefit too with more services and extra seats on the east coast

:37:47.:37:50.

And of course there's hopes Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe could end up

:37:51.:37:55.

Or as some critics say, a giant vanity project?

:37:56.:38:09.

It seems to me it's providing awful value for money, frankly.

:38:10.:38:11.

When you look at this project, it seems to be that it is providing

:38:12.:38:15.

fewer miles per pound spent on any project for high-speed rail

:38:16.:38:18.

It seems incredibly expensive, it is something which is only

:38:19.:38:23.

going to cut a relatively short amount of time of our train

:38:24.:38:28.

journeys, and at the same time, it's costing tens of billions of pounds.

:38:29.:38:31.

The cost is spiralling out of control.

:38:32.:38:34.

You see the cost going up and up and up.

:38:35.:38:38.

And nobody really realising at first hand what it was actually

:38:39.:38:41.

And then you think, how much we could actually do

:38:42.:38:45.

if we put that money into our regions across the UK,

:38:46.:38:47.

including here in the north-east, and actually improve our roads

:38:48.:38:51.

and rail infrastructure that we've got at the moment.

:38:52.:38:53.

Spend the money more, perhaps on improving rail services,

:38:54.:38:59.

roads in your area rather than a project, but it's only

:39:00.:39:02.

going to have fringe benefits for us, isn't it?

:39:03.:39:04.

I think one of the key issues, and that was the frustration I found

:39:05.:39:07.

early on in this discussion, this isn't really about speed

:39:08.:39:09.

as such as Jonathan says, it's about capacity.

:39:10.:39:11.

Our train services are absolutely full.

:39:12.:39:13.

It's great people are using trains more more,

:39:14.:39:15.

which is really important, we need to see that capacity

:39:16.:39:18.

expansion into the Midlands and up into the north-east.

:39:19.:39:21.

I'm very pleased as part of the Secretary of State's

:39:22.:39:23.

statement this week on this that the connection at Leeds

:39:24.:39:26.

bringing us up into York at Newcastle is clearly set out,

:39:27.:39:30.

and clearly those of us from the North will continue to look

:39:31.:39:34.

It will knock about quarter of an hour off the fastest time.

:39:35.:39:38.

It is not only about time, it is about capacity and ensuring

:39:39.:39:42.

that we have got a whole new level of train network in order to keep

:39:43.:39:45.

growing the use of trains, both for passengers and freight.

:39:46.:39:49.

Labour have backed HS2 but slightly grudgingly at times,

:39:50.:39:53.

talking about the budget needing to be under control,

:39:54.:39:56.

fair enough but there is a kind of have your cake and eat it.

:39:57.:40:00.

Slightly moan about it, but we should embrace it, shouldn't we?

:40:01.:40:03.

Up to a point but when this matter was discussed in the Lords

:40:04.:40:06.

of the other day, I declared an interest as you have to do.

:40:07.:40:09.

I said it would be a posthumous interest.

:40:10.:40:11.

Because by the time the service reaches the north-east,

:40:12.:40:13.

17 years on, I was 72 yesterday, I don't think I'm going to be here.

:40:14.:40:17.

I asked the Minister when it would actually reach

:40:18.:40:25.

Newcastle and he's going to write to me about that.

:40:26.:40:27.

And I think there's a lot of questions about the viability

:40:28.:40:29.

of it and the length of time it's going to take.

:40:30.:40:32.

But would you say the argument that we need it, apart

:40:33.:40:35.

from the argument about high-speed rail itself, but alleviating

:40:36.:40:37.

I think what we need is a much better connection

:40:38.:40:41.

between the north-east and Yorkshire and the north-west.

:40:42.:40:43.

The greater Manchester and Liverpool area.

:40:44.:40:44.

That seems to me the most important advantage that we could get.

:40:45.:40:47.

The London end I don't think is particularly relevant

:40:48.:40:49.

I'm sure between now and 2033, if I'm still here, if any of us

:40:50.:40:55.

are still here, we will be discussing that again.

:40:56.:40:58.

Now, Ukip will have a new leader in a little over a week's time.

:40:59.:41:01.

The bookies' favourite is North West Euro-MP Paul Nuttall.

:41:02.:41:04.

He wants to target Labour-held constituencies in the north

:41:05.:41:07.

which he says are an "open goal" for Ukip.

:41:08.:41:10.

But can the party really translate anti-EU sentiment into votes

:41:11.:41:13.

and how much of a threat do they pose to Labour?

:41:14.:41:17.

Cast in favour of Leave was 82,000...

:41:18.:41:23.

It's the city that put Britain on course for Brexit.

:41:24.:41:28.

But when Sunderland became first to declare a vote for Leave,

:41:29.:41:32.

did that point to a wider turn in the political tide?

:41:33.:41:36.

From Remain supporting Labour to a party that made leaving

:41:37.:41:39.

After the referendum celebrations, Ukip hoped to keep momentum going.

:41:40.:41:47.

By targeting council and even Parliamentary seats here on Wearside

:41:48.:41:51.

They've lost not one but two leaders and faced some

:41:52.:41:57.

Some of her blooms may be purple, but the owner of this florist shop

:41:58.:42:05.

voted Conservative blue at the last election.

:42:06.:42:08.

She agrees with Ukip on Brexit but says the party lacks substance.

:42:09.:42:15.

I don't think they come across as serious, I don't.

:42:16.:42:18.

Because they've never actually proved anything as yet.

:42:19.:42:20.

They need to buck up their ideas, get somebody in decent.

:42:21.:42:23.

A few doors up, a different tune at the local record store.

:42:24.:42:27.

Previously Labour, its owner switched to Ukip in 2015.

:42:28.:42:30.

But worry the party could prove a one-hit wonder.

:42:31.:42:34.

They've actually basically got what they wanted,

:42:35.:42:40.

On the high street, shoppers also wonder

:42:41.:42:45.

They can't decide who wants to be leader, there's one stepped down

:42:46.:42:50.

Nobody seems strong enough at the moment.

:42:51.:42:54.

The scuffle in Parliament, alleged scuffle, I don't think that

:42:55.:42:57.

And despite the recent winning of seats in councils

:42:58.:43:02.

like Hartlepool, Ukip faces policy confusion as well,

:43:03.:43:05.

I think it's fair to say that Ukip are a bit in disarray at the moment,

:43:06.:43:11.

as I think it always happens to populist parties.

:43:12.:43:15.

They had one issue, which was to get us out of Europe,

:43:16.:43:18.

the vote went the right way for them.

:43:19.:43:20.

As it picks its leader, Ukip also faces a north-south dilemma.

:43:21.:43:27.

Ukip's appeal in the south of England was to get Conservative

:43:28.:43:30.

voters who wanted to have less government, lower taxes.

:43:31.:43:33.

In the north, it was much more about having a sense

:43:34.:43:36.

of regional identity, having concerns about housing.

:43:37.:43:41.

Ukip supporters admit the leadership contest has been bruising,

:43:42.:43:44.

but say Labour's neglect in the north-east

:43:45.:43:47.

You've only got a small number of local councillors,

:43:48.:43:51.

no MPs in this region, is talk of challenging

:43:52.:43:55.

Over the years we've grown in strength.

:43:56.:43:59.

We've consistently come second in the Parliamentary

:44:00.:44:03.

and council elections, and this is our platform

:44:04.:44:07.

for going that extra yard to cross the finishing line.

:44:08.:44:11.

The night that Ukip's dreams came true, but after its referendum

:44:12.:44:15.

revelry, the party's still dealing with a hangover.

:44:16.:44:20.

Jonathan, you are backing Paul Nuttall for the leadership,

:44:21.:44:23.

why will he deliver northern MPs where Nigel Farage failed?

:44:24.:44:27.

Well, look, any new leader is going to build on the legacy

:44:28.:44:34.

of Nigel Farage and Nigel has taken this party a very, very long way,

:44:35.:44:37.

he deserves an immense amount of credit for what Nigel has done

:44:38.:44:40.

But Paul, of course, is someone who is a northerner.

:44:41.:44:43.

He gets it, he understands, he understands the north of this

:44:44.:44:47.

country, he understands the problems that we face and he is somebody

:44:48.:44:51.

who has spent an awful lot of time, actually, across in this region,

:44:52.:44:54.

so many times, he has been across and helped out.

:44:55.:44:57.

He is deputy leader of the party so he's got the internal experience,

:44:58.:45:01.

And he's also somebody who talks the right language.

:45:02.:45:05.

Who's going to start broadening the policy base,

:45:06.:45:08.

who is going to make sure that we are not talking

:45:09.:45:11.

about EU and immigration, but we're talking about crime,

:45:12.:45:13.

which is an issue which is decimating our working class

:45:14.:45:16.

It has actually gone back up fairly recently.

:45:17.:45:25.

Lots of traditional Labour voters backed Brexit, they

:45:26.:45:31.

I don't think it necessarily follows.

:45:32.:45:40.

We can't, Labour doesn't take voters for granted.

:45:41.:45:42.

We are trying to deal on the ground in our councils with huge problems,

:45:43.:45:45.

massive cuts in, government cuts, and we have two really represent

:45:46.:45:48.

There is a danger here, isn't there, that you look at what happened

:45:49.:45:55.

in Scotland, the SNP, that is the danger.

:45:56.:45:57.

That Labour takes an area for granted, that it has a God-given

:45:58.:46:00.

right to get votes here, and what happens is the same that

:46:01.:46:03.

We don't take the people for granted, in terms

:46:04.:46:06.

of Parliamentary elections or indeed in local councils.

:46:07.:46:08.

I don't people here are going to be particularly impressed by a party

:46:09.:46:11.

whose ex-leader seems to be Donald Trump's best

:46:12.:46:13.

And a party for that matter by the way pledged to abolish

:46:14.:46:25.

inheritance tax is one of its main proposals in the last

:46:26.:46:28.

Paul Nuttall's election could be bad news for your party, couldn't it?

:46:29.:46:32.

Because the kind of agenda that Jonathan talked about,

:46:33.:46:34.

tough on crime, he is talking about perhaps a referendum

:46:35.:46:36.

on capital punishment, I can imagine that could appeal

:46:37.:46:39.

I think you'll find the Conservative Party is perhaps

:46:40.:46:42.

a far more broad church than that these days.

:46:43.:46:44.

I'm not saying every Conservative voter, but some.

:46:45.:46:47.

I think in Northumberland in particular, we have seen

:46:48.:46:50.

absolutely a fragmentation of some of the Labour vote,

:46:51.:46:54.

and it is now fragmented again because you have got

:46:55.:46:57.

the Corbynite Labour vote which is a very clear part

:46:58.:47:00.

of the Labour Party along with a fairly disenfranchised Labour

:47:01.:47:04.

vote who is not sure where they should be

:47:05.:47:06.

I think Ukip do continue to have a stronghold over that voter.

:47:07.:47:11.

But you know there is a strain of working class conservatives

:47:12.:47:13.

who vote in the north-east, but also working class voters voting

:47:14.:47:17.

for Labour who may well have been thinking they could vote

:47:18.:47:20.

Conservative because of your attitude to the European Union.

:47:21.:47:22.

A strong leader like Paul Nuttall, that is going to be a problem

:47:23.:47:25.

No, I think the, as you like to call the working-class voter,

:47:26.:47:31.

I am seeing week in and week out over the last few weeks,

:47:32.:47:36.

are very keen on supporting Theresa May's view of

:47:37.:47:39.

the Conservative government, she is reaching out to everyone.

:47:40.:47:42.

And I think that is something we are going to see,

:47:43.:47:44.

a strengthening of the Conservative vote in the north-east.

:47:45.:47:47.

It is the Phil Wilson question, Theresa May is going to deliver

:47:48.:47:50.

Brexit, all the indications are that she will be

:47:51.:47:52.

strong on ending freedom of movement of labour,

:47:53.:47:54.

I thought the Phil Wilson question was quite absurd, frankly.

:47:55.:47:59.

For him to say Ukip have got policy confusion when he is a member

:48:00.:48:03.

of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour was I thought little bit rich.

:48:04.:48:07.

Ukip have to be talking about issues that impact on working people.

:48:08.:48:10.

That's why I said we broaden our appeal, it is beyond EU immigration,

:48:11.:48:14.

we talk about crime, we talk about democracy,

:48:15.:48:16.

we talk about how we are bringing power not just...

:48:17.:48:18.

Can you really prove you are more than just a single issue party?

:48:19.:48:22.

It was the EU that founded your success, and now that that Fox

:48:23.:48:25.

is shot, we are leaving the European Union,

:48:26.:48:27.

When I joined Ukip, I joined Ukip in 2001,

:48:28.:48:33.

I didn't even at that time realise how big of an issue the EU was,

:48:34.:48:36.

how much it impacted on our daily lives and how important

:48:37.:48:39.

At that time, when I joined Ukip, I actually joined Ukip based

:48:40.:48:44.

on the range of other policies that the party have.

:48:45.:48:47.

And that was 15 years ago when we were still seen

:48:48.:48:50.

We are certainly not that and we will never be that.

:48:51.:48:53.

The political instincts of your party are like the Lib Dems,

:48:54.:48:56.

Most of the MPs, a lot of the councillors would actually

:48:57.:49:00.

quite like to fight to stay in the EU, still.

:49:01.:49:03.

But because you are afraid of the voters who in this

:49:04.:49:06.

region backed Brexit, you are not prepared

:49:07.:49:09.

I don't know what you mean by nailing colours to the mast.

:49:10.:49:15.

We have to accept that in our view the referendum went the wrong way,

:49:16.:49:18.

and particularly the wrong way for this region, which has had

:49:19.:49:21.

?800 million worth of investment over the last few years,

:49:22.:49:25.

which is actually more than the government

:49:26.:49:27.

were promising over 30 years in the devolution deal.

:49:28.:49:30.

Aren't you making that point that isn't the Lib Dem position,

:49:31.:49:34.

asking for a second referendum on the deal, a more coherent one

:49:35.:49:38.

than Labour's which is like, we do not like it but we will go

:49:39.:49:42.

I am not saying we are going along with it.

:49:43.:49:46.

I think that is a possibility because at the moment we have got

:49:47.:49:50.

a government which does not know, or does not tell people,

:49:51.:49:52.

We have to seem what the government in fact wants

:49:53.:49:58.

It is appalling that no steps at all to prepare for the contingency

:49:59.:50:05.

of the referendum going, in my view, and the former

:50:06.:50:08.

government's view, the wrong way, none at all.

:50:09.:50:10.

Affording somewhere to live is a struggle for many people.

:50:11.:50:15.

But even if you manage to rent a home there's the extra

:50:16.:50:18.

At the moment local councils and housing associations can help

:50:19.:50:21.

by providing furniture packs paid for through housing benefit.

:50:22.:50:24.

But one Tyneside charity has warned that the Government's cap on housing

:50:25.:50:27.

benefit will prevent many new tenants from

:50:28.:50:29.

This is the lamp that I've got from the Foundation,

:50:30.:50:36.

I paid ?15 for it, because there's two different prices ranges,

:50:37.:50:38.

one if you're on benefits and one if you're working.

:50:39.:50:41.

The wardrobe, we got from the Foundation,

:50:42.:50:44.

It's better than any other wardrobe I've ever had, actually.

:50:45.:50:49.

Wendy and her husband John were both out of work at the time

:50:50.:50:56.

when they went to a charity that helps people on low

:50:57.:50:58.

Furniture they might otherwise not have been able to afford.

:50:59.:51:02.

If you're on benefits, you're really, your money

:51:03.:51:06.

is going mainly to keep the house over your head.

:51:07.:51:09.

You're paying for your utility bills which is going through the roof.

:51:10.:51:15.

And people are really struggling to find decent furniture.

:51:16.:51:20.

This is where Wendy and John's furniture came from,

:51:21.:51:22.

the Foundations Furniture Project based in Gateshead on Tyneside.

:51:23.:51:27.

It sells low-cost furniture to people on benefits, or,

:51:28.:51:30.

through a credit union, helps them borrow money

:51:31.:51:32.

at affordable rates to buy the furniture.

:51:33.:51:34.

The charity fears it could be about to get a whole lot busier.

:51:35.:51:38.

At the moment people living in social housing can have some

:51:39.:51:41.

of the furniture paid for through their housing benefit.

:51:42.:51:44.

But a new housing benefit cap might mean that's not

:51:45.:51:48.

That housing benefit cap is being phased in by 2018.

:51:49.:51:54.

Critics believe some people on benefits will then find it harder

:51:55.:51:57.

to furnish their homes and could turn to very expensive

:51:58.:52:00.

People have got their pride, they want to have a nice house and that.

:52:01.:52:07.

So the only thing is they go to where they perhaps can

:52:08.:52:15.

And sometimes they're so desperate that they're not really

:52:16.:52:21.

particularly bothered, as long as they can get

:52:22.:52:23.

So I think there is the potential there for people to get into a lot

:52:24.:52:29.

The Department for Work and Pensions told us the cap on housing benefit

:52:30.:52:34.

for tenants in social housing is fair because this brings payments

:52:35.:52:38.

into line with those in the private rented sector.

:52:39.:52:41.

And it also says it's providing councils with ?1 billion of funding

:52:42.:52:44.

by 2020 to help tenants affected by the cap.

:52:45.:52:56.

Doesn't this seem just another cruel punishment for those in need who

:52:57.:53:01.

find themselves in dire circumstances? You get how is but

:53:02.:53:04.

you cannot afford to furnish it. The key question is understanding the

:53:05.:53:09.

purpose of the housing benefit cap which is making money available to

:53:10.:53:15.

in private or social housing because in private or social housing because

:53:16.:53:19.

there has been a disparity. That is fair on the taxpayer who is funding

:53:20.:53:23.

the bill, so there should be fairness across the board. It is an

:53:24.:53:26.

interesting piece that you have shown, I would worry if families who

:53:27.:53:30.

are looking to get furniture for their home cannot get access but the

:53:31.:53:36.

credit unions are always there to provide low-cost and supportive

:53:37.:53:40.

finance. A lot of people will go to money lenders or the kind of

:53:41.:53:44.

retailers who charge extortionate interest rates, that is the reality.

:53:45.:53:48.

That is a risk now, the housing cap will not change that. More people

:53:49.:53:53.

will be driven towards it. I hope that every council is there to

:53:54.:53:57.

them to low-cost providers or the them to low-cost providers or the

:53:58.:54:06.

councils will find ways to help. The cap is there to even out so everyone

:54:07.:54:10.

whatever sort of housing they are in get support. Is that not fair, it

:54:11.:54:19.

provides a pot of money for discretionary payments that councils

:54:20.:54:21.

can pay-out when they find people in need. The reality is it will hit

:54:22.:54:26.

people very hard. I asked a Parliamentary question about this,

:54:27.:54:31.

the parliament said there are 580 households who want lose out on this

:54:32.:54:38.

to the dead of ?1.3 million -- to the extent of ?1.3 million per year.

:54:39.:54:42.

That is taken out of the local economy. The local housing allowance

:54:43.:54:48.

is also being reduced. In that case, 1300 households are going to lose

:54:49.:54:53.

something like 1.1 million a year. That is just in Newcastle. Nearly

:54:54.:54:58.

2.5 million. But they are matching private sector tenants. The problem

:54:59.:55:03.

is that private sector rents are higher. Government policy has been

:55:04.:55:06.

to effectively kill off the to effectively kill off the

:55:07.:55:11.

provision of new social housing, greater emphasis going into the

:55:12.:55:14.

private rented sector, there are no control over those rents and that

:55:15.:55:18.

has driven up the need for housing benefit in those sectors. They need

:55:19.:55:21.

to be tackling the rent levels in the private sector. Money is tight

:55:22.:55:26.

and the benefit caps help control spending, a lot of your supporters

:55:27.:55:29.

will be stability to that. This has also chimed with your party. We have

:55:30.:55:35.

to take a mature and reasoned attitude to this kind of thing. Of

:55:36.:55:39.

course there were problems. Under the last Labour government there was

:55:40.:55:44.

public sector overspend on everything and there was a need to

:55:45.:55:49.

bring spending under control. If this measure you could support? The

:55:50.:55:54.

problem comes that it seems that quite often it is a question of

:55:55.:56:00.

taking an axe to something without being very careful and making sure

:56:01.:56:08.

that you are not putting hard-working people on disadvantage.

:56:09.:56:11.

Or people on benefits. One of the big problems in the benefit system,

:56:12.:56:19.

particularly impact in people in the north-east, is the Employment

:56:20.:56:21.

Support Allowance undercuts there. I am concerned about those cuts in

:56:22.:56:29.

principle. Something has to change in the Autumn Statement,

:56:30.:56:31.

particularly the freeze on benefits that will hit a lot of people if the

:56:32.:56:36.

inflation goes up. If I knew any more than you would be the first to

:56:37.:56:43.

share it. We need to make sure we have fairness across the board, I

:56:44.:56:47.

have spent time with the CABG they making sure we -- CABG today Mickey

:56:48.:56:56.

sure we have famous across the -- fairness across the system.

:56:57.:56:58.

Unemployment fell in the north east this week to levels last

:56:59.:57:00.

But while there was good news on jobs, concern is mounting over

:57:01.:57:04.

Here's Fergus with that and the rest of the week's news in 60 seconds.

:57:05.:57:09.

Unemployment in the north-east is at its lowest for a decade.

:57:10.:57:12.

It was down 20,000 to 79,000 between July and September.

:57:13.:57:14.

It's still the highest in the UK but fell faster than other part

:57:15.:57:17.

A motion calling for accident and emergency and maternity

:57:18.:57:21.

services to be retained at Darlington's Memorial Hospital

:57:22.:57:23.

has been passed by councillors in North Yorkshire.

:57:24.:57:26.

Middlesbrough South MP Tom Blenkinsop has urged

:57:27.:57:29.

the government to put more money into the social care budget

:57:30.:57:31.

but ministers say better coordination of services

:57:32.:57:33.

CQC has commented that social care is on the verge of collapse.

:57:34.:57:40.

The government has had six years of warnings in relation to this

:57:41.:57:44.

matter, yet it has cut ?4 billion from the social care budget.

:57:45.:57:48.

Will the Secretary of State for Health be talking

:57:49.:57:51.

to his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that that

:57:52.:57:54.

?4 billion is replaced in the Autumn Statement?

:57:55.:57:56.

And finally, a new NHS review has supported the continued closure

:57:57.:58:00.

of an inpatient ward at Rothbury Community Hospital

:58:01.:58:03.

There will now be a formal consultation on its future.

:58:04.:58:13.

You were at the public meeting at Rothbury discussing the ward

:58:14.:58:20.

Croatia, strong feelings but the figures are stark, it is only half

:58:21.:58:26.

for most of the time, is it right to consult on its future? The hospital

:58:27.:58:30.

is not at risk, they are looking at the 12 inpatient beds which they

:58:31.:58:34.

have put a freeze on news of the moment. The occupancy has been below

:58:35.:58:41.

50% for the last few years. The stresses in terms of staff that

:58:42.:58:44.

Northumbria trust has got, they need to find a better way. I have been

:58:45.:58:48.

working closely with the community over the summer and understanding

:58:49.:58:52.

what we want those beds to be used for, because clearly they have not

:58:53.:58:55.

been providing the right sort of service. There is a real issue with

:58:56.:59:00.

palliative care and social care respite care for elderly couples. We

:59:01.:59:06.

consultation to make sure that we consultation to make sure that we

:59:07.:59:09.

can find a model that is going to work. People at the meeting once

:59:10.:59:13.

these beds available to local patients for emergency care. The

:59:14.:59:19.

challenge that we have it understand within that particular Community

:59:20.:59:25.

Hospital building what level of medical care can be provided. It has

:59:26.:59:28.

been a low metal core care. What is your view -- medical care. What is

:59:29.:59:36.

your view? It needs to be opened to provide palliative care for those in

:59:37.:59:39.

the last few weeks of their life, it has been used in an ad hoc way

:59:40.:59:43.

already for that, but also provide a level of social care and respite for

:59:44.:59:47.

families because we do not have that at all.

:59:48.:59:48.

And that's it from us, we're back same time,

:59:49.:59:51.

In the meantime for a northern slant on the Autumn Statement

:59:52.:59:54.

follow me on Twitter, and we'll be dissecting

:59:55.:59:56.

what the Chancellor's package means for our region on next week's show.

:59:57.:59:57.

never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we

:59:58.:00:00.

should spend more time on. Back to you.

:00:01.:00:09.

What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?

:00:10.:00:14.

What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy?

:00:15.:00:16.

And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in

:00:17.:00:19.

Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been

:00:20.:00:34.

touring the television studios this morning.

:00:35.:00:35.

Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press

:00:36.:00:42.

As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only

:00:43.:00:45.

seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.

:00:46.:00:48.

So a lot of this will be a repeat of what

:00:49.:00:51.

I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on

:00:52.:00:54.

We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might

:00:55.:00:59.

imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow

:01:00.:01:02.

hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.

:01:03.:01:07.

That simply doesn't exist if we're going to

:01:08.:01:11.

retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets

:01:12.:01:13.

if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to

:01:14.:01:17.

We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this

:01:18.:01:31.

morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things

:01:32.:01:39.

like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an

:01:40.:01:45.

infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it

:01:46.:01:48.

was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is

:01:49.:01:57.

the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think

:01:58.:02:01.

there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot

:02:02.:02:06.

set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do

:02:07.:02:10.

is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are

:02:11.:02:19.

-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how

:02:20.:02:27.

they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about

:02:28.:02:31.

the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit

:02:32.:02:36.

until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of

:02:37.:02:46.

Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how

:02:47.:02:49.

Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury

:02:50.:02:52.

comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and

:02:53.:02:57.

collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the

:02:58.:03:04.

economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot

:03:05.:03:11.

say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to

:03:12.:03:14.

take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the

:03:15.:03:18.

Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,

:03:19.:03:22.

and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the

:03:23.:03:28.

Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and

:03:29.:03:32.

spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is

:03:33.:03:37.

a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office

:03:38.:03:41.

for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions,

:03:42.:03:45.

there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from

:03:46.:03:54.

Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the

:03:55.:03:56.

referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a

:03:57.:04:00.

way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you

:04:01.:04:07.

were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I

:04:08.:04:14.

say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.

:04:15.:04:19.

I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to

:04:20.:04:27.

build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see

:04:28.:04:37.

them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would

:04:38.:04:42.

suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just

:04:43.:04:45.

managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that

:04:46.:04:54.

simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.

:04:55.:05:01.

These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With

:05:02.:05:04.

income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly

:05:05.:05:09.

expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of

:05:10.:05:12.

that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after

:05:13.:05:20.

pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are

:05:21.:05:25.

people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the

:05:26.:05:31.

number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their

:05:32.:05:36.

pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020,

:05:37.:05:40.

and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just

:05:41.:05:45.

managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are

:05:46.:05:54.

talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so

:05:55.:06:01.

the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple

:06:02.:06:04.

of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it

:06:05.:06:08.

will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing

:06:09.:06:15.

people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,

:06:16.:06:24.

because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow

:06:25.:06:31.

Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed

:06:32.:06:36.

in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is

:06:37.:06:39.

about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for

:06:40.:06:44.

governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for

:06:45.:06:47.

labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need

:06:48.:06:52.

a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the

:06:53.:06:56.

deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond

:06:57.:07:02.

did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given

:07:03.:07:05.

himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it

:07:06.:07:11.

will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is

:07:12.:07:16.

the next political earthquake going to happen?

:07:17.:07:23.

It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring.

:07:24.:07:30.

Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next

:07:31.:07:32.

year's French Presidential elections?

:07:33.:07:34.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:35.:07:35.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

:07:36.:07:37.

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

:07:38.:07:40.

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

:07:41.:07:43.

Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.

:07:44.:07:47.

Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former

:07:48.:08:01.

prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not

:08:02.:08:04.

clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting

:08:05.:08:09.

race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It

:08:10.:08:23.

is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all

:08:24.:08:26.

the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated

:08:27.:08:31.

by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination

:08:32.:08:37.

there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In

:08:38.:08:42.

other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration

:08:43.:08:47.

and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to

:08:48.:08:51.

appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third

:08:52.:08:58.

candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few

:08:59.:09:01.

days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on

:09:02.:09:06.

television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all

:09:07.:09:11.

surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a

:09:12.:09:16.

British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the

:09:17.:09:20.

first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.

:09:21.:09:28.

We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is

:09:29.:09:31.

fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right

:09:32.:09:35.

party is likely to be the next president, and who the next

:09:36.:09:40.

president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit

:09:41.:09:42.

negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then

:09:43.:09:46.

after the German elections in October. I would add one more

:09:47.:09:52.

constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop

:09:53.:10:01.

Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the

:10:02.:10:09.

run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done.

:10:10.:10:14.

There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three

:10:15.:10:19.

centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit

:10:20.:10:24.

and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it

:10:25.:10:33.

is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of

:10:34.:10:40.

marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out

:10:41.:10:44.

of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does

:10:45.:10:47.

not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was

:10:48.:10:51.

suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next

:10:52.:10:55.

time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the

:10:56.:10:59.

most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if

:11:00.:11:06.

you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he

:11:07.:11:10.

goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen

:11:11.:11:13.

go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that

:11:14.:11:22.

a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have

:11:23.:11:28.

to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do

:11:29.:11:34.

it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential

:11:35.:11:45.

Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on

:11:46.:11:49.

the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of

:11:50.:11:54.

French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise

:11:55.:11:58.

the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic

:11:59.:12:13.

policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French

:12:14.:12:22.

elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate

:12:23.:12:29.

are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running

:12:30.:12:32.

against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist

:12:33.:12:35.

economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise

:12:36.:12:40.

the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not

:12:41.:12:49.

classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.

:12:50.:12:52.

And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an

:12:53.:12:58.

effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the

:12:59.:13:04.

socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We

:13:05.:13:12.

will see what they come up with this time.

:13:13.:13:14.

The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,

:13:15.:13:18.

where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn

:13:19.:13:24.

But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:25.:13:33.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS