Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union? | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending | :00:51. | :01:03. | |
on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
Their last leader was just 18 days in the job. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
Here: Does Ukip really pose a threat to Labour dominance | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
And claims housing benefit changes might prevent some people | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
is it about a bigger conflict in Europe? | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative, | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
First this morning - Theresa May has said | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister - | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to | :02:18. | :02:27. | |
deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May, | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
making a success of Brexit for the country. | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then, | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice. | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that. | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it, | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do | :06:41. | :06:55. | |
you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
to the single market, that goods going from this country to the | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that, | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU, | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0% | :08:10. | :08:19. | |
tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators. | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view. | :08:50. | :08:50. | |
Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could | :08:51. | :08:59. | |
not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement, | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative. | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you | :11:15. | :11:26. | |
want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit. | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
also means quitting the | :11:58. | :11:58. | |
Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free | :11:59. | :12:00. | |
movement of goods, services, capital and people. | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market. | :12:10. | :12:18. | |
When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
"No, we should be outside the Single Market." | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
Gove was absolutely right to say the UK | :12:29. | :12:30. | |
They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before | :12:31. | :12:42. | |
the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the | :12:43. | :12:44. | |
Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary, | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave | :13:22. | :13:34. | |
campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was | :13:38. | :13:46. | |
made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12 | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum. | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters. | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see. | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options. | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs. | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
clip you used on Owen Paterson first. | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
Only a madman would actually leave the market. | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
Only a madman would actually leave the market. | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
It's not the EU which is | :16:13. | :16:13. | |
a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods. | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
I mean, are we really suggesting that the | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
economy in the world is not going to come to come | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU? | :16:27. | :16:27. | |
Are we going to be like Sudan and North | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that | :16:35. | :16:47. | |
we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
think he was about axis, he is talking | :17:13. | :17:30. | |
about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now, | :17:42. | :17:43. | |
the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave. | :17:49. | :17:49. | |
When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
it might be initially attractive for some business people. | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
for some business people. But then again for voters | :18:06. | :18:07. | |
who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU, | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
they will be very concerned that it allows free movement | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him. | :18:15. | :18:26. | |
He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does. | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say. | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
run. There is absolutely | :19:15. | :19:15. | |
nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part | :19:18. | :19:18. | |
of the European Economic Area and we should use our | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
membership of the EEA as a holding position from which | :19:24. | :19:32. | |
we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me, | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we | :19:39. | :19:47. | |
should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip | :19:53. | :20:02. | |
is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market, | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe. | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
us out of our biggest trading partner. | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up | :22:14. | :22:14. | |
their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week | :22:15. | :22:16. | |
in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James - | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from | :22:23. | :22:24. | |
farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty, | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're | :22:28. | :22:43. | |
having their second Watch as the alpha male, | :22:44. | :22:53. | |
the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male, | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha | :23:02. | :23:03. | |
female Diane James. The European Parliament | :23:04. | :23:05. | |
in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible | :23:06. | :23:19. | |
future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe, | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
during a meeting. A few days later he is | :23:26. | :23:27. | |
out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my | :23:28. | :23:29. | |
application to become I'm actually withdrawing | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party? | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans, | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall, | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans, | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
passionate supporters who feel like they're not really | :24:32. | :24:45. | |
being listened to and are not even Typically what happens | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
is they just basically sit there until six months before | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
there is not an adequate flow of communication | :24:57. | :24:58. | |
up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
any hustings? He left a hustings saying | :25:01. | :25:09. | |
the contest was an establishment coronation and has | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty | :25:14. | :25:15. | |
for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
will amongst the offences should be dealt with | :25:19. | :25:20. | |
decisively. But again, on an issue like that, | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
that is something that Our members are not | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
I would have any authority to have the say and determine | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
the future What method would you use | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
poll about whether you use the electric chair, | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
in favour of This is such a small aspect | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
details. This is one vote that | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
in this party is to revolutionise the democratic | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
would win at Meanwhile, in New York, | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
of the President-elect, a man he has described as | :26:30. | :26:38. | |
a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
in this leadership contest. There are also elections | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
to the party's National Executive Committee, a body | :26:45. | :26:46. | |
that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election - | :26:50. | :27:03. | |
Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving | :27:04. | :27:13. | |
each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans. | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment, | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
need to attract more women, more ethnic | :27:35. | :27:54. | |
minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical | :28:01. | :28:02. | |
party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience. | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done | :28:13. | :28:14. | |
every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy, | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour | :28:20. | :28:21. | |
constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet | :28:27. | :28:28. | |
are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
the party as well and also a background that I think means I can | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity | :29:11. | :29:21. | |
faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful. | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee | :29:24. | :29:25. | |
going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party, | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him. | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade, | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
2020. The other thing your leader has in | :31:27. | :31:36. | |
common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is | :32:14. | :32:21. | |
affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign, | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters. | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns, | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you, | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party. | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have | :34:44. | :34:45. | |
seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our | :35:01. | :35:10. | |
manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two, | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period. | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25 | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey? | :36:20. | :36:34. | |
Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither. | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. | :36:55. | :37:03. | |
Hello and a very warm welcome to your local part of the show | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
This week, a Tyneside charity warns that government changes to housing | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
benefit could prevent some people from furnishing their homes. | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
Also coming up, can Ukip under a new leader really win Labour-held | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
I'll be asking my guests, the Labour Peer Jeremy Beecham | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
and Ukip North East Euro-MP Jonathan Arnott. | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
Also talking about all that and ward closures at her local | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
hospital in Northumberland is the Conservative MP | :37:32. | :37:33. | |
But let's start with high speed rail. | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
This week the government set out its preferred route to take HS2 | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
Ministers say passengers in the North East and Cumbria | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
will benefit too with more services and extra seats on the east coast | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
And of course there's hopes Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe could end up | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
Or as some critics say, a giant vanity project? | :37:56. | :38:09. | |
It seems to me it's providing awful value for money, frankly. | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
When you look at this project, it seems to be that it is providing | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
fewer miles per pound spent on any project for high-speed rail | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
It seems incredibly expensive, it is something which is only | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
going to cut a relatively short amount of time of our train | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
journeys, and at the same time, it's costing tens of billions of pounds. | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
The cost is spiralling out of control. | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
You see the cost going up and up and up. | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
And nobody really realising at first hand what it was actually | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
And then you think, how much we could actually do | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
if we put that money into our regions across the UK, | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
including here in the north-east, and actually improve our roads | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
and rail infrastructure that we've got at the moment. | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
Spend the money more, perhaps on improving rail services, | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
roads in your area rather than a project, but it's only | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
going to have fringe benefits for us, isn't it? | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
I think one of the key issues, and that was the frustration I found | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
early on in this discussion, this isn't really about speed | :39:08. | :39:09. | |
as such as Jonathan says, it's about capacity. | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
Our train services are absolutely full. | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
It's great people are using trains more more, | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
which is really important, we need to see that capacity | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
expansion into the Midlands and up into the north-east. | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
I'm very pleased as part of the Secretary of State's | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
statement this week on this that the connection at Leeds | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
bringing us up into York at Newcastle is clearly set out, | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
and clearly those of us from the North will continue to look | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
It will knock about quarter of an hour off the fastest time. | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
It is not only about time, it is about capacity and ensuring | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
that we have got a whole new level of train network in order to keep | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
growing the use of trains, both for passengers and freight. | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
Labour have backed HS2 but slightly grudgingly at times, | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
talking about the budget needing to be under control, | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
fair enough but there is a kind of have your cake and eat it. | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
Slightly moan about it, but we should embrace it, shouldn't we? | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
Up to a point but when this matter was discussed in the Lords | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
of the other day, I declared an interest as you have to do. | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
I said it would be a posthumous interest. | :40:10. | :40:11. | |
Because by the time the service reaches the north-east, | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
17 years on, I was 72 yesterday, I don't think I'm going to be here. | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
I asked the Minister when it would actually reach | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
Newcastle and he's going to write to me about that. | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
And I think there's a lot of questions about the viability | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
of it and the length of time it's going to take. | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
But would you say the argument that we need it, apart | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
from the argument about high-speed rail itself, but alleviating | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
I think what we need is a much better connection | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
between the north-east and Yorkshire and the north-west. | :40:42. | :40:43. | |
The greater Manchester and Liverpool area. | :40:44. | :40:44. | |
That seems to me the most important advantage that we could get. | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
The London end I don't think is particularly relevant | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
I'm sure between now and 2033, if I'm still here, if any of us | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
are still here, we will be discussing that again. | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
Now, Ukip will have a new leader in a little over a week's time. | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
The bookies' favourite is North West Euro-MP Paul Nuttall. | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
He wants to target Labour-held constituencies in the north | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
which he says are an "open goal" for Ukip. | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
But can the party really translate anti-EU sentiment into votes | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
and how much of a threat do they pose to Labour? | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
Cast in favour of Leave was 82,000... | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
It's the city that put Britain on course for Brexit. | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
But when Sunderland became first to declare a vote for Leave, | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
did that point to a wider turn in the political tide? | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
From Remain supporting Labour to a party that made leaving | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
After the referendum celebrations, Ukip hoped to keep momentum going. | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
By targeting council and even Parliamentary seats here on Wearside | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
They've lost not one but two leaders and faced some | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
Some of her blooms may be purple, but the owner of this florist shop | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
voted Conservative blue at the last election. | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
She agrees with Ukip on Brexit but says the party lacks substance. | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
I don't think they come across as serious, I don't. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
Because they've never actually proved anything as yet. | :42:19. | :42:20. | |
They need to buck up their ideas, get somebody in decent. | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
A few doors up, a different tune at the local record store. | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
Previously Labour, its owner switched to Ukip in 2015. | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
But worry the party could prove a one-hit wonder. | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
They've actually basically got what they wanted, | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
On the high street, shoppers also wonder | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
They can't decide who wants to be leader, there's one stepped down | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Nobody seems strong enough at the moment. | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
The scuffle in Parliament, alleged scuffle, I don't think that | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
And despite the recent winning of seats in councils | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
like Hartlepool, Ukip faces policy confusion as well, | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
I think it's fair to say that Ukip are a bit in disarray at the moment, | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
as I think it always happens to populist parties. | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
They had one issue, which was to get us out of Europe, | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
the vote went the right way for them. | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
As it picks its leader, Ukip also faces a north-south dilemma. | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
Ukip's appeal in the south of England was to get Conservative | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
voters who wanted to have less government, lower taxes. | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
In the north, it was much more about having a sense | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
of regional identity, having concerns about housing. | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
Ukip supporters admit the leadership contest has been bruising, | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
but say Labour's neglect in the north-east | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
You've only got a small number of local councillors, | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
no MPs in this region, is talk of challenging | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
Over the years we've grown in strength. | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
We've consistently come second in the Parliamentary | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
and council elections, and this is our platform | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
for going that extra yard to cross the finishing line. | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
The night that Ukip's dreams came true, but after its referendum | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
revelry, the party's still dealing with a hangover. | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
Jonathan, you are backing Paul Nuttall for the leadership, | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
why will he deliver northern MPs where Nigel Farage failed? | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Well, look, any new leader is going to build on the legacy | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
of Nigel Farage and Nigel has taken this party a very, very long way, | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
he deserves an immense amount of credit for what Nigel has done | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
But Paul, of course, is someone who is a northerner. | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
He gets it, he understands, he understands the north of this | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
country, he understands the problems that we face and he is somebody | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
who has spent an awful lot of time, actually, across in this region, | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
so many times, he has been across and helped out. | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
He is deputy leader of the party so he's got the internal experience, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
And he's also somebody who talks the right language. | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
Who's going to start broadening the policy base, | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
who is going to make sure that we are not talking | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
about EU and immigration, but we're talking about crime, | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
which is an issue which is decimating our working class | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
It has actually gone back up fairly recently. | :45:17. | :45:25. | |
Lots of traditional Labour voters backed Brexit, they | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
I don't think it necessarily follows. | :45:32. | :45:40. | |
We can't, Labour doesn't take voters for granted. | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
We are trying to deal on the ground in our councils with huge problems, | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
massive cuts in, government cuts, and we have two really represent | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
There is a danger here, isn't there, that you look at what happened | :45:49. | :45:55. | |
in Scotland, the SNP, that is the danger. | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
That Labour takes an area for granted, that it has a God-given | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
right to get votes here, and what happens is the same that | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
We don't take the people for granted, in terms | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
of Parliamentary elections or indeed in local councils. | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
I don't people here are going to be particularly impressed by a party | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
whose ex-leader seems to be Donald Trump's best | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
And a party for that matter by the way pledged to abolish | :46:14. | :46:25. | |
inheritance tax is one of its main proposals in the last | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
Paul Nuttall's election could be bad news for your party, couldn't it? | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
Because the kind of agenda that Jonathan talked about, | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
tough on crime, he is talking about perhaps a referendum | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
on capital punishment, I can imagine that could appeal | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
I think you'll find the Conservative Party is perhaps | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
a far more broad church than that these days. | :46:43. | :46:44. | |
I'm not saying every Conservative voter, but some. | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
I think in Northumberland in particular, we have seen | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
absolutely a fragmentation of some of the Labour vote, | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
and it is now fragmented again because you have got | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
the Corbynite Labour vote which is a very clear part | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
of the Labour Party along with a fairly disenfranchised Labour | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
vote who is not sure where they should be | :47:05. | :47:06. | |
I think Ukip do continue to have a stronghold over that voter. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
But you know there is a strain of working class conservatives | :47:12. | :47:13. | |
who vote in the north-east, but also working class voters voting | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
for Labour who may well have been thinking they could vote | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
Conservative because of your attitude to the European Union. | :47:21. | :47:22. | |
A strong leader like Paul Nuttall, that is going to be a problem | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
No, I think the, as you like to call the working-class voter, | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
I am seeing week in and week out over the last few weeks, | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
are very keen on supporting Theresa May's view of | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
the Conservative government, she is reaching out to everyone. | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
And I think that is something we are going to see, | :47:43. | :47:44. | |
a strengthening of the Conservative vote in the north-east. | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
It is the Phil Wilson question, Theresa May is going to deliver | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
Brexit, all the indications are that she will be | :47:51. | :47:52. | |
strong on ending freedom of movement of labour, | :47:53. | :47:54. | |
I thought the Phil Wilson question was quite absurd, frankly. | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
For him to say Ukip have got policy confusion when he is a member | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour was I thought little bit rich. | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
Ukip have to be talking about issues that impact on working people. | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
That's why I said we broaden our appeal, it is beyond EU immigration, | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
we talk about crime, we talk about democracy, | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
we talk about how we are bringing power not just... | :48:17. | :48:18. | |
Can you really prove you are more than just a single issue party? | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
It was the EU that founded your success, and now that that Fox | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
is shot, we are leaving the European Union, | :48:26. | :48:27. | |
When I joined Ukip, I joined Ukip in 2001, | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
I didn't even at that time realise how big of an issue the EU was, | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
how much it impacted on our daily lives and how important | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
At that time, when I joined Ukip, I actually joined Ukip based | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
on the range of other policies that the party have. | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
And that was 15 years ago when we were still seen | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
We are certainly not that and we will never be that. | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
The political instincts of your party are like the Lib Dems, | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
Most of the MPs, a lot of the councillors would actually | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
quite like to fight to stay in the EU, still. | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
But because you are afraid of the voters who in this | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
region backed Brexit, you are not prepared | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
I don't know what you mean by nailing colours to the mast. | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
We have to accept that in our view the referendum went the wrong way, | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
and particularly the wrong way for this region, which has had | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
?800 million worth of investment over the last few years, | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
which is actually more than the government | :49:26. | :49:27. | |
were promising over 30 years in the devolution deal. | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
Aren't you making that point that isn't the Lib Dem position, | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
asking for a second referendum on the deal, a more coherent one | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
than Labour's which is like, we do not like it but we will go | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
I am not saying we are going along with it. | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
I think that is a possibility because at the moment we have got | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
a government which does not know, or does not tell people, | :49:51. | :49:52. | |
We have to seem what the government in fact wants | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
It is appalling that no steps at all to prepare for the contingency | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
of the referendum going, in my view, and the former | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
government's view, the wrong way, none at all. | :50:09. | :50:10. | |
Affording somewhere to live is a struggle for many people. | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
But even if you manage to rent a home there's the extra | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
At the moment local councils and housing associations can help | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
by providing furniture packs paid for through housing benefit. | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
But one Tyneside charity has warned that the Government's cap on housing | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
benefit will prevent many new tenants from | :50:28. | :50:29. | |
This is the lamp that I've got from the Foundation, | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
I paid ?15 for it, because there's two different prices ranges, | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
one if you're on benefits and one if you're working. | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
The wardrobe, we got from the Foundation, | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
It's better than any other wardrobe I've ever had, actually. | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
Wendy and her husband John were both out of work at the time | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
when they went to a charity that helps people on low | :50:57. | :50:58. | |
Furniture they might otherwise not have been able to afford. | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
If you're on benefits, you're really, your money | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
is going mainly to keep the house over your head. | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
You're paying for your utility bills which is going through the roof. | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
And people are really struggling to find decent furniture. | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
This is where Wendy and John's furniture came from, | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
the Foundations Furniture Project based in Gateshead on Tyneside. | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
It sells low-cost furniture to people on benefits, or, | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
through a credit union, helps them borrow money | :51:31. | :51:32. | |
at affordable rates to buy the furniture. | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
The charity fears it could be about to get a whole lot busier. | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
At the moment people living in social housing can have some | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
of the furniture paid for through their housing benefit. | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
But a new housing benefit cap might mean that's not | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
That housing benefit cap is being phased in by 2018. | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
Critics believe some people on benefits will then find it harder | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
to furnish their homes and could turn to very expensive | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
People have got their pride, they want to have a nice house and that. | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
So the only thing is they go to where they perhaps can | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
And sometimes they're so desperate that they're not really | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
particularly bothered, as long as they can get | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
So I think there is the potential there for people to get into a lot | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
The Department for Work and Pensions told us the cap on housing benefit | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
for tenants in social housing is fair because this brings payments | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
into line with those in the private rented sector. | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
And it also says it's providing councils with ?1 billion of funding | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
by 2020 to help tenants affected by the cap. | :52:45. | :52:56. | |
Doesn't this seem just another cruel punishment for those in need who | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
find themselves in dire circumstances? You get how is but | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
you cannot afford to furnish it. The key question is understanding the | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
purpose of the housing benefit cap which is making money available to | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
in private or social housing because in private or social housing because | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
there has been a disparity. That is fair on the taxpayer who is funding | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
the bill, so there should be fairness across the board. It is an | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
interesting piece that you have shown, I would worry if families who | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
are looking to get furniture for their home cannot get access but the | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
credit unions are always there to provide low-cost and supportive | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
finance. A lot of people will go to money lenders or the kind of | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
retailers who charge extortionate interest rates, that is the reality. | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
That is a risk now, the housing cap will not change that. More people | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
will be driven towards it. I hope that every council is there to | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
them to low-cost providers or the them to low-cost providers or the | :53:58. | :54:06. | |
councils will find ways to help. The cap is there to even out so everyone | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
whatever sort of housing they are in get support. Is that not fair, it | :54:11. | :54:19. | |
provides a pot of money for discretionary payments that councils | :54:20. | :54:21. | |
can pay-out when they find people in need. The reality is it will hit | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
people very hard. I asked a Parliamentary question about this, | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
the parliament said there are 580 households who want lose out on this | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
to the dead of ?1.3 million -- to the extent of ?1.3 million per year. | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
That is taken out of the local economy. The local housing allowance | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
is also being reduced. In that case, 1300 households are going to lose | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
something like 1.1 million a year. That is just in Newcastle. Nearly | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
2.5 million. But they are matching private sector tenants. The problem | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
is that private sector rents are higher. Government policy has been | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
to effectively kill off the to effectively kill off the | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
provision of new social housing, greater emphasis going into the | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
private rented sector, there are no control over those rents and that | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
has driven up the need for housing benefit in those sectors. They need | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
to be tackling the rent levels in the private sector. Money is tight | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
and the benefit caps help control spending, a lot of your supporters | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
will be stability to that. This has also chimed with your party. We have | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
to take a mature and reasoned attitude to this kind of thing. Of | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
course there were problems. Under the last Labour government there was | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
public sector overspend on everything and there was a need to | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
bring spending under control. If this measure you could support? The | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
problem comes that it seems that quite often it is a question of | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
taking an axe to something without being very careful and making sure | :56:01. | :56:08. | |
that you are not putting hard-working people on disadvantage. | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
Or people on benefits. One of the big problems in the benefit system, | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
particularly impact in people in the north-east, is the Employment | :56:20. | :56:21. | |
Support Allowance undercuts there. I am concerned about those cuts in | :56:22. | :56:29. | |
principle. Something has to change in the Autumn Statement, | :56:30. | :56:31. | |
particularly the freeze on benefits that will hit a lot of people if the | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
inflation goes up. If I knew any more than you would be the first to | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
share it. We need to make sure we have fairness across the board, I | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
have spent time with the CABG they making sure we -- CABG today Mickey | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
sure we have famous across the -- fairness across the system. | :56:57. | :56:58. | |
Unemployment fell in the north east this week to levels last | :56:59. | :57:00. | |
But while there was good news on jobs, concern is mounting over | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
Here's Fergus with that and the rest of the week's news in 60 seconds. | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
Unemployment in the north-east is at its lowest for a decade. | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
It was down 20,000 to 79,000 between July and September. | :57:13. | :57:14. | |
It's still the highest in the UK but fell faster than other part | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
A motion calling for accident and emergency and maternity | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
services to be retained at Darlington's Memorial Hospital | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
has been passed by councillors in North Yorkshire. | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
Middlesbrough South MP Tom Blenkinsop has urged | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
the government to put more money into the social care budget | :57:30. | :57:31. | |
but ministers say better coordination of services | :57:32. | :57:33. | |
CQC has commented that social care is on the verge of collapse. | :57:34. | :57:40. | |
The government has had six years of warnings in relation to this | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
matter, yet it has cut ?4 billion from the social care budget. | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
Will the Secretary of State for Health be talking | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
to his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that that | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
?4 billion is replaced in the Autumn Statement? | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
And finally, a new NHS review has supported the continued closure | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
of an inpatient ward at Rothbury Community Hospital | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
There will now be a formal consultation on its future. | :58:04. | :58:13. | |
You were at the public meeting at Rothbury discussing the ward | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
Croatia, strong feelings but the figures are stark, it is only half | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
for most of the time, is it right to consult on its future? The hospital | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
is not at risk, they are looking at the 12 inpatient beds which they | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
have put a freeze on news of the moment. The occupancy has been below | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
50% for the last few years. The stresses in terms of staff that | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
Northumbria trust has got, they need to find a better way. I have been | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
working closely with the community over the summer and understanding | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
what we want those beds to be used for, because clearly they have not | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
been providing the right sort of service. There is a real issue with | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
palliative care and social care respite care for elderly couples. We | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
consultation to make sure that we consultation to make sure that we | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
can find a model that is going to work. People at the meeting once | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
these beds available to local patients for emergency care. The | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
challenge that we have it understand within that particular Community | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
Hospital building what level of medical care can be provided. It has | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
been a low metal core care. What is your view -- medical care. What is | :59:29. | :59:36. | |
your view? It needs to be opened to provide palliative care for those in | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
the last few weeks of their life, it has been used in an ad hoc way | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
already for that, but also provide a level of social care and respite for | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
families because we do not have that at all. | :59:48. | :59:48. | |
And that's it from us, we're back same time, | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
In the meantime for a northern slant on the Autumn Statement | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
follow me on Twitter, and we'll be dissecting | :59:55. | :59:56. | |
what the Chancellor's package means for our region on next week's show. | :59:57. | :59:57. | |
never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
should spend more time on. Back to you. | :00:01. | :00:09. | |
What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement? | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy? | :00:15. | :00:16. | |
And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been | :00:20. | :00:34. | |
touring the television studios this morning. | :00:35. | :00:35. | |
Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all. | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
So a lot of this will be a repeat of what | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
That simply doesn't exist if we're going to | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this | :01:18. | :01:31. | |
morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is | :01:49. | :01:57. | |
the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are | :02:11. | :02:19. | |
-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down, | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions, | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from | :03:46. | :03:54. | |
Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the | :03:55. | :03:56. | |
referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms. | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see | :04:28. | :04:37. | |
them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either. | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after | :05:13. | :05:20. | |
pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020, | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are | :05:46. | :05:54. | |
talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme, | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
the next political earthquake going to happen? | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring. | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
year's French Presidential elections? | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans, | :07:35. | :07:35. | |
are selecting their candidate in the first round of | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans, | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
are selecting their candidate in the first round of | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield. | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former | :07:48. | :08:01. | |
prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It | :08:10. | :08:23. | |
is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh. | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
party is likely to be the next president, and who the next | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
after the German elections in October. I would add one more | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop | :09:53. | :10:01. | |
Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done. | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that | :11:14. | :11:22. | |
a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential | :11:35. | :11:45. | |
Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic | :11:59. | :12:13. | |
policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not | :12:41. | :12:49. | |
classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
will see what they come up with this time. | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two, | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:25. | :13:33. |