11/12/2016 Sunday Politics North East and Cumbria


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


A row has broken out between Number Ten and former


Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,


the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.


I feel as though I'm one of the people that


If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,


It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult


for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest


Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.


Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,


but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance


Here... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie


Why do children in the South have better prospects than those living


And claims air pollution in parts of the region are


think of it as an early Christmas present from us.


We guarantee you won't be disappointed.


And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined


by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.


It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.


So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some


of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.


But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this


morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts


from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning


the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.


Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,


and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation


She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning


Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair


She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart


Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week


But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary


argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief


She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing


for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation


and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".


The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying


"If you don't like something I have said or done, please


If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."


Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.


And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see


in our film shortly, has now been formally banned


So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying


tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says


something about British politics today, that this is the most


important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are


not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they


don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being


spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street


with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet


Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row


over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,


she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten


you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the


high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.


You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky


Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul


as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.


Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they


are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in


which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's


entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is


genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she


chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that


journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life


works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the


Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney


and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government


department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold


together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the


whole Government like one department. This is just the start,


Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,


The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most


to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if


it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was


split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used


to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down


the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert


the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a


self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it


comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do


you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own


wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is


that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen


polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,


a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any


money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself


comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted


with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most


exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that


British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain


lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at


being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split


between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that


sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the


1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.


The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of


pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.


So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price


of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.


And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire


the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say


about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead


of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,


it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.


While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated


Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting


on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.


Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government


basically got its way, but it did provide a platform


for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,


We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level


of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners


that want to thwart the will of the people,


go back on it and that we don't accept the result.


I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people


It's not good enough that these things are dragged


out of the Government by opposition day motions.


I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking


Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents


I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head


above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,


you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.


I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank


you for what you are doing, party members around


the country saying thank you for what you are doing


and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.


I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,


you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak


opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised


on before we embark on such a huge issue.


Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's


side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that


if you don't stand up for what you believe in,


I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.


That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local


party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses


Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association


she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support


the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that


and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people


who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government


The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP


and we want to see a Conservative government being


I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get


on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,


Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see


how her stance is going down with the voters.


If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does


Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,


especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU


so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.


She should stick for what she believes in,


but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...


She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted


to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,


depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.


Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street


this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.


Although now we know not everyone is invited.


And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday


was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted


against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end


of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.


Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David


Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new


leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to


deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't


speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious


interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but


somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman


which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and


said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger


ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only


serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a


difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,


your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more


in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it


not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not


Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,


she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting


out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for


being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it


wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the


national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid


throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and


my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party


throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion


on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to


Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my


reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national


interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of


course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you


think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it


40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you


have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,


they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have


been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.


That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are


living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and


the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's


trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we


need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a


leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis


upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the


others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than


any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.


What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our


children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need


Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of


negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to


run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted


in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister


sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that


your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons


think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum


campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were


completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.


Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I


have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so


just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a


minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan


Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with


that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were


going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and


tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How


long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will


survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a


heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you


think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has


always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in


a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does


he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to


forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there


will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten


years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of


his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward


is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which


all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet


papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get


down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry


to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film


that a number of constituency members in those areas which are


strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was


Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.


What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects


their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very


grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because


you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great


fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on


everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've


always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying


what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and


then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised


if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the


policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say


you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing


Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't


been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my


colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that


haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have


been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well


with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's


much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street


has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm


glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what


they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm


not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still


have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.


That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really


grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will


have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument


about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to


keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be


deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's


relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this


Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you


for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever


criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn


against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,


but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,


or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result


for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping


for an early Christmas present at this week's


contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,


a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,


there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second


in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better


performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,


where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting


fewer voters than the reported number of local


Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this


week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major


issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity


is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers


were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote


against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU


by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've


spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs


the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,


or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,


eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,


a national poll released on Friday put Labour


at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy


for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories


under his leadership, including a by-election win


in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a


Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack


of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having


failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,


what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played


down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour


Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic


party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current


leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in


the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.


And we're joined now by the former mayor


of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow


Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from


second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its


deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in


this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters


switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings


that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is


like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the


Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win


tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with


the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,


but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the


national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells


going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I


think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a


plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are


going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard


Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.


When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.


John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a


massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory


governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a


disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if


Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the


EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year


and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we


are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic


disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew


the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why


are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points


behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating


went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an


election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not


grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it


will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic


alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible


economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand


basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a


commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It


is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,


particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back


and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative


manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to


the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the


broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an


MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not


going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a


couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from


Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And


I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part


of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted


to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you


don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other


27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,


why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't


think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to


get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps


millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say


we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all


Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would


suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories


are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a


bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut


through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us


that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a


33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of


the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to


make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and


not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or


whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox


fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18


months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.


The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You


weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you


have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting


rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of


policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to


govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The


idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like


takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,


yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this


summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of


the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I


want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have


got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio


at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more


money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums


add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.


They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour


Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..


Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid


off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace


compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is


decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a


society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just


the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to


contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public


are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in


the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out


clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these


things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money


through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150


billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier


estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR


programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can


say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we


will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just


checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do


you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn


round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get


worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we


would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will


knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill


Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going


to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise


they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the


Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans


that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in


12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will


hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for


the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do


they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to


bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your


party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we


have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the


opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good


enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the


Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and


on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending


national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian


intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now


in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be


able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are


heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the


war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the


last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the


way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we


used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is


in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually


getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.


Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking


about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying


off message, again, and the protestors attempting


First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.


Hello and a warm welcome to your local part of the show just


Claims that air pollution in some parts of the region are almost


Are plans to expand the road network going to make the problem worse?


Talking about that - and the rest of the week's news -


including claims that parents in the North need to be more "pushy"


to help their children get on - is the Conservative MP for Skipton


and Ripon, Julian Smith and Northumbria's Police


The new Police and Crime Bill is back in Parliament this week.


It's a wide-ranging piece of legislation which will enable


Police Commissioners to take on responsibility for


There's also been controversy over plans to hand over some police


If money is tight, I'm sure you have found that,


it might make perfect sense for a Police Commissioner to also be


What we have done is, we have welcomed the duty to collaborate


and what we have done is to set up, a couple of years ago,


a strategic board and we have worked ever since to see how we can


They are very different services, but we have joint premises


Police are located in fire stations, and so on.


We have a joint set of premises called SafetyWorks!


in the West End of Newcastle where children come in classloads


and learn about fire prevention, crime prevention and child


It's run by the fire service and ourselves.


We are looking at all sorts of potential...


So you are co-operating. Would you have any...?


It's the bottom end joint work which is going to


Would you have any concerns about a PCC being in charge


It's not what I want to do and it doesn't seem to me that


It's about giving better service, governance is the last


As long as those in charge of both services can work jointly together,


Julian Smith, in North Yorkshire, the commissioner there,


Julia Mulligan, is actually very keen to be in charge


She produced a report talking about how she could run both


I'm bringing together ambulance, fire, police next


week in Fountains Abbey and we are welcoming the police


I'm disappointed to hear Vera's comments, it sounds


We have got to seize the opportunity to reduce costs,


to bring together blue lights as closely as possible whilst


retaining their individual independence and in places


like Ron North Yorkshire, where we have got challenges


with ambulance response times, I welcome all of


Does a Police Commissioner being in charge of the Fire


I think Vera is right, we want to focus on the detail


rather than actually government at this stage, but we have


to have a vision and the vision has to be not just buildings but how


you get these organisations taking much more responsibility


The fire and ambulance in parts of North Yorkshire are doing this


and I think we need to push ahead quicker and faster.


The bottom end is where vision comes, of course.


It's people who have got eyes on the ball,


day-to-day, who can see what they can do together.


We are doing exceptionally well here.


I want to move it to another issue in this bill, which you have


voiced concerns about, which is giving civilians


more powers that the police currently have.


The problem is, we have lost more than 800 officers,


we have lost 1000 police through Tory cuts.


Northumbria has had the worst financial cuts of any police


Can't civilians help? 23%...


We are very happy with specials, they are properly trained police


officers who volunteer from time to time to come in.


There is absolutely everything to be said for that.


And there are lots and lots of volunteers who are there,


keen to support police. OK.


But what they shouldn't be asked to do, is the job of police.


There is no limits, literally in this legislation save for a very


tiny core of police powers of in what volunteers


Julian Smith, cheap policing without police


If you speak to police officers and go to police stations,


they talk about the huge value of the support they get


and the difference that that civilian support makes


They probably want more police officers, not the chance


The important thing is under the coalition government


and under this government, we have seen a big cut in crime


across the country and we need, in order to continue with that


high-performance, push hard to be creative on costs and make sure


policing is on the front line and we get as much civilian support


in order to have as many front line officers as possible.


That doesn't seem to have much to do with the issue.


Look at all the child sexual exploitation.


If you look at all the statistics, you see crime going


Take a look at the amount of time that police have to take over child


sexual exploitation compared to small crimes like criminal


damage, bending a mirror on a car, it's completely different.


You are not comparing pairs with pears.


Crime is going down under the Conservative government.


We are not going to get agreement between you on this,


so we will have to move on to other issues.


Now, what's it like growing up in the North?


Are there the same opportunities for young people to get on in life?


These questions are the focus of a year-long investigation started


this week by the Children's Commissioner.


But her call for northern parents to be more pushy


is already drawing criticism - as our correspondent


Early morning and for this family in Stockton, the school run beckons.


The investigation launched this week aims to give the young an equal


chance of achieving ambitions, wherever they live.


I'd like to be a primary schoolteacher when I'm older


because I feel primary schools are a key stage in everyone's lives.


I want to be something to do with, like, politics or an actor.


The Children's Commissioner once more than parents to be


pushier when it comes to demanding good education.


The message doesn't go down well here.


I fought hard to live in an area where I'm able to send my children


just excellent schools and in itself is surely need trying to help them


So the idea that more than parents on pushy,


I think it's rubbish. I think it's offensive.


So, is the children's Commissioner guilty of bashing


When I was talking about parents, and there has been a big debate this


week about pushy parents, I was actually say that given


that we know that schools are falling behind at secondary


school stage and there are huge variations across the region,


actually there is something here that parents want to know


about their schools, want to talk to schools


Launching a year-long inquiry, the Commissioner painted a mixed


At primary school, pupils have some of the country's best results.


But by secondary, the region's GCSE results lag behind top performing


areas with fewer than average going to top universities.


This school has been praised by Ofsted for its focus


on standards, but the challenge is not just about academic learning.


It's also about encouraging students to aim high when it


It's a real positive because you are going to understand


Staff here serve disadvantaged areas of Newcastle but see that as no


Because a lot of children, especially in this region,


maybe don't have parents who are in those massive high jobs,


we need to be able to instil that aspiration in children and show


that they know that they can reach for the stars.


As for this group of sixth formers, many are positive


about their education, optimistic for the future.


Even if some are considering moving away.


There are definitely more opportunities down south then


If you've got the drive to do something, I don't forget


that is where you are from, you can do it.


In the past, a lot of people didn't go to university,


But now, like, education is important now and a lot of people


A North East MP says the problem isn't education,


It's a sad fact of life for the North East of England,


one of our biggest export is our young people.


When they get to the age to work in the jobs market in awful lot


of the mortality youngsters have to go outside the region


-- an awful lot of our more talented youngsters.


And therefore, I think Anne Longfield needs


to look at that as well, look at the jobs market,


And that does have an impact on aspiration of our young people.


How to ensure the North's next-generation scale the heights?


Asking the question will prove easier than answering it.


Julian Smith, the aims of the children's Commissioner,


to look at problems in the north, most people would welcome,


but she has got parents group was backed up,


straightaway, by using this idea of the need for them


Yeah, I have seen no evidence that parents in the North are anything


but incredibly passionate about the life opportunities


Every constituent who comes in talks to me about their childreneducation


are refocused on how to get the best deal for their child.


I think the key thing is we now have 1.5 million more


children across the country, 46,000 more children


in the North East, going to good or outstanding schools,


but we have to continue to move forward and get even better


statistics and that is why the government is looking


at selection and other opportunities to make that happen.


That's opened a can of worms, selection!


Anyway, zero Baird, actually, it may not be the only solution,


but if parents were more assertive with schools that perhaps one


delivering for their children, it might help, might it not?


Extraordinary that a Tory can talk about equality of opportunity


I don't think it's about pushiness, I think it's about opportunity.


And it is right, we have the highest number of NEETs, we have the highest


number of unemployed people, we have the highest number of people


Michael Wilshaw, who has just stopped being the head of Ofsted,


links poverty and deprivation with lack of ambition


Until there is some better opportunities in the North East


which requires the government to give it some real attention


here and let's make it very clear, it's nothing to do with lack


Two thirds of young people who are in poverty are in households


where there is work and yet educational opportunities


We have lost the largest number of public sector jobs


in the entire country, the swap over to


The government has improved the schools, what more can it do?


16 out of 17 underachieving schools are in the north of England.


How much is it the fault of those schools and the aspirations of those


schools rather than necessarily government funding or policies


Very much more government funding and policies made in Whitehall.


There is no evidence at all to separate poverty and deprivation


They go together like a horse and cart.


And until the government put some significant funding back up here,


which it has systematically robbed of funding, I have already mentioned


OK, Julian Smith, the central accusation is not enough funding


and it's all down to poverty and that is what you need


Well, doom and gloom from Vera today.


We have an upwardly mobile economy in the North East,


we have Nissan committing to their investment recently,,


we have higher levels of employment than under the time Vera was...


We still have children coming out of secondary school


who are performing worse than their compatriots in the South.


We will continue to make sure that every child in our country


and in the North East has the same opportunities...


Lots of money was thrown at schools in London and the improvement


That's what the North East needs, isn't it?


46,000 more children going to good or outstanding schools.


More to do, but we need to be positive about the position


we are in, which is a much stronger position than when you're Labour...


This region has been destroyed by this Tory government.


Hang on... Just let me reply.


We lost a quarter of a million public sector jobs.


We have had replaced by a very low number of sector jobs.


The highest private levels in British statistical history.


Once again, Julian is not counting apples and apples.


We have low quality jobs with uncertain hours and very low pay.


Julian Smith, a brief time for you to answer that.


Vera doesn't deny... You really...


Let him speak. Julian Smith, just answer.


We need to focus on the North East a little bit harder.


As I said, we have got the best job situation we have had in the history


of statistical analysis on jobs and fear is unable


Under the Conservative government, we have a jobs revolution.


Tell that to people on zero hours contracts.


We are not going to reach agreement yet again.


Now, Sunderland was the first place to vote Brexit -


and this week MPs travelled to Wearside as part of


a Parliamentary inquiry to discover exactly what that will mean.


Here's that and the rest of the week's news -


including a new plan for jobs on Teesside - all in 60 seconds.


The North East Chamber of Commerce and Sunderland Council were among


those giving evidence to MPs about the impact of Brexit.


The chairman of the new exiting the EU committee, Hilary Benn,


said it was crucial to hear views from outside Westminster.


This is the very first visit we have undertaken as a select committee.


We didn't want to sit in Westminster and just take evidence there,


because this is so important to the future of the economy


Carlisle's MP has called for a review of the scheme


designed to ensure people in high flood risk areas can get insurance.


John Stevenson said most leaseholders in blocks of flats


Lord Heseltine has launched a plan that aims to create 25,000 jobs


across the Tees Valley in the next ten years.


It was drawn up by the five local authorities of Teesside.


And finally, as work continues to fill a 66-foot-wide sinkhole


in Ripon, may ageing Morgan says he is concerned about the future.


It's the second sinkhole to open up in the city in two years.


Julian Smith, of course that sinkhole is in your constituency.


Is enough being done to get your constituents back


I pay tribute to the work of the emergency services,


who dealt very quickly, along with the borough council,


Harrogate Borough Council, to deal with the huge challenge


of this sinkhole appearing in the back gardens of a number


I attended the emergency meeting that weekend.


But you are right, we have a big challenge in Ripon.


We have probably got more sinkhole under the city than most cities


in the country and I will be looking carefully at how we can progress


and look at the technologies that are available, we have heard,


in Japan, and other countries of the world, to deal


But it is serious issue for a key conurbation in North Yorkshire.


We will see what happens and let's hope no more open up


in the next few days - or weeks or months!


Now, thousands of people in the North East are being exposed


to a higher risk of lung cancer, heart disease and dementia


because air pollution is above safe levels.


That was the claim made by the Green Party's new co-leader


Caroline Lucas this week on a visit to Durham.


She says plans to expand the road network will only


worsen the problem - but the local Labour-run council


It's often invisible, the pollution being produced


by all these vehicles in Durham, particularly those fuelled by


Particulates are tiny pieces of oily soot that can be inhaled.


Nitrogen dioxide, or NO2, is an invisible but toxic gas.


It is estimated that together, they contribute to almost


50,000 premature deaths in the UK each year.


They have a direct effect on human health.


Particulates go straight into our lung region


and people who are suffering from from respiratory illnesses,


for example children, elderly population and those


who are already suffering from respiratory illnesses,


Because pollution from traffic can exceed safe levels in parts


of Durham, the council is obliged to try and reduce it to help


Other places across the North East and Cumbria are having


to do the same thing, including in Carlisle, Gateshead,


Newcastle, South Tyneside, York and even Malton in


So we have to ensure that new development


Air pollution has therefore become a big issue and during a visit


to Durham, Green Party leader Caroline Lucas spelt out its dangers


to a public meeting and warned against council plans


Air-pollution absolutely is a silent and deadly killer and it's one


which local authorities, government as well, don't


I have yet to be persuaded that road-building is the answer,


because although it can look like a short-term fix,


what happens all too often is that the so-called relief road


then becomes congested itself and you end up having to build more


I would like this even prioritising instead public


But the Labour run council in Durham denies it isn't doing enough.


There are a number of projects we have been involved in,


But we also just introduced the SCOOT system, which is designed


to move through traffic on a more freely basis.


And obviusly that will cut down air-pollution by not wasting time


people being stood moving through the area.


So those are two schemes we have done.


Also, also, we are working on cycling routes and


Well, we did go have consultation, and asked the people,


the vast majority of people thought it was the right solution for


The government says it has invested almost ?1 billion


to encourage people to switch to low emission vehicles.


And it says it will update as quality plans next year


as a further measure to tackle air-pollution.


Vera Baird, a Labour council there standing accused of looking


for a solution to this as building more roads, that's not


No, what is a solution is some government action for once.


They have been taken to court four times now to get them to do some


serious clean air legislation, 2011, 2014, to Europe,


2015, the Supreme Court and just a week ago,


they were ordered a game to get a grip on nitrogen dioxide.


But it doesn't help with your local council just deciding


on a relief road, which may generate more traffic?


Local authorities have to work within their budget to do


We would like some fundamentally improved funding for public


We could extend the Metro, that would save a lot.


But basically, the government has declined to get a grip on this.


They have been criticised repeatedly by Europe and also by the courts.


Julian Smith, you are just not getting a grip on this?


Thousands of people are dying every year because of air-pollution.


Well, we have announced the clean air zones,


we have got a consultation on this issue, that launches in October.


And the big shift that is happening very rapidly is on the technology


changes in areas such as electric cars and a driverless cars


and in the Autumn Statement, two weeks ago, I was delighted


to see ?300 million going into that area and into investing into more


thinking on research and development for new technologies.


But the problem is, as Vera Baird mentioned the EU,


it is the EU limits at the moment that are the only things that


And even then, you are breaching them and being taken to court.


The suspicion is, post-Brexit, you might want to relax those limits.


Well, as you know, there will be a bill going through Parliament


in the New Year with regard to the transposition


It would be a great way of avoiding these court cases,


I think the important thing is what actions are being taken,


as I said, there's consultation at the moment, there are these clean


And the big push in terms of the technology is key.


We have also made huge strides on the international stage on Paris


climate change talks, on committing to the big


targets in this area and being a leader in that.


Vera Baird, they are doing what they can?


These are key threats to the public health of our cities and you mention


a range of diseases, lung disease to heart attack


and strokes are caused by these pollutants.


They have actually reduced from 12 clean air zones to five,


But you can't stand in the way of the economy?


And they are only intending to put them in place


at the time when they thought the European Commission


That is an express finding by a High Court judge.


That they were playing to that agenda and not doing it as fast


We will have to leave it there, we are running out of time.


And that's about it from us for this week.


We're back, same time, same place next Sunday when we'll be


still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.


Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked


by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian


revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged


in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking


the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally


in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned


The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it


And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks


were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right


of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi


terrorists from over the border with Yemen,


didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore


Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...


This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.


The way it was interpreted left people with the impression


that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.


Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital


Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?


Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring


Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.


It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest


in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are


the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be


honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall


story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that


Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a


story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there


was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between


London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring


and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are


taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris


Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I


tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting


Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis


got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the


Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just


what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they


see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this


conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two


ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing


Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region


earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine


what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three


words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick


to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,


although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech


which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night


which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in


withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3


billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases


exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the


world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen


and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't


entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we


have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in


Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes


and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both


saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is


going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't


going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners


and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of


bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals


and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases


with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.


Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street


reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important


development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They


want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should


be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another


example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that


the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed


post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I


think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I


think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel


threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and


many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival


for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May


trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain


is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,


post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are


breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,


democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying


ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should


we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,


these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.


Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply


collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession


depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think


what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,


we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the


most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep


saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.


Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.


The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is


a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,


or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.


Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for


breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you


make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It


is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take


this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost


tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a


huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft


carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep


the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just


Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is


more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no


change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now


we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.


Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be


trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be


turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I


don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC


has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the


weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us


move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was


inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.


Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?


Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then


Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a


distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be


able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do


something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather


than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in


general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning


what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was


interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had


they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other


than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics


which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the


British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the


Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the


things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is


happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry


watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last


week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the


west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.


And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily


Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If


and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are


talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than


anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We


will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I


understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from


analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it


is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator


of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in


reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far


you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty


much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and


the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the


press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is


behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.


He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much


of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is


time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the


cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,


you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree


at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want


to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a


reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,


that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.


I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily


Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.


and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


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