01/07/2012 Sunday Politics North West

In the north-west - as East Lancashire's merger of a Andy

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1683 seconds

services a model but others should Coming up in the next 20 minutes:

that joined up thinking. But as the East Lancashire to nurture of

accident and emergency services at a model that others should follow?

Today we have Andrew Gwynne of Labour and Geoff Driver of the

Conservatives. The row over a controversial process of the

drilling for shale gas continues. There is a massive amount below the

surface of the Fylde Coast but environmental campaigners say that

the process of getting hold of it is dangerous. This week a panel of

scientists said it was fine to continue with proper safeguards.

Far below the fields of the Fylde Coast lies the potential for new

energy, jobs, and well. This is shale gas and the company hoped

that this latest report will allow them to start drilling. Look at

what the science community say. This is just another report that

says it can be safer. We understand and know that but this confirms

that. The process works by cutting deep into formations. The rocks are

fractured a using explosives or hydraulic pressure. Water is then

pumped in to create cracks and release the gas, probably worth

billions of pounds. But with America that has come with

explosive results. In places water supplies have been polluted with

methane gas and other chemicals. Do not worry, say the scientists.

Typically it is a lower than the natural consequences. The worst

level of earth tremor is no more than a lorry passing in the road

outside your house. But the report does question the more fundamental

environmental impacts of burning gas and whether public opinion will

be ready to accept the process. Joining us is felucca Machell of

the Green Party. Is this not great news for you? -- Phil Mitchell.

am not convinced. A lot of in by the mental health professionals and

scientists are calling for a moratorium. -- environ mental

health. Certainly groups such as the World Wildlife Fund and other

environmental groups here and across the UK and the United States

have called for a moratorium. They are concerned about the health

impacts. I do not think that this report addresses that fully enough.

Looking at the issue of safety this has now been classified as safe by

the Royal Academy and the Royal engineers. Every fundamental report

into the practice says it is safe. A lot of those are just reviews,

not reports. The information is not fully completed. More research is

needed. We need more research into epidemiological studies and the

health impact before we can introduce it. Let's ask Geoff

Driver. Do you think it is time to go ahead? The council are the

ultimate planning authority but there are also licensing

authorities and the Health and Safety Agency. All three bodies

have to satisfy themselves before they get a licence or approval.

Then it comes to us. But are you satisfied? It will come to us on

the basis of environmentalists use so it would be wrong for me to give

an opinion before I know exactly what the application as. -- environ

mental concerns. But the report is from the Royal Academy of

Engineering. Are you satisfied? course I am satisfied with a report

from such eminent people, if you cannot accept their report, who

would you except one from? If but we have always said that the

fundamental concern is safety. If we would not look anywhere near

this unless there were declarations it was safe. We well as you do that.

So you are happy? But I must make it clear that this is about

generality. We then only enter when a specific application is made. We

would then enter on environmental grounds that an hour responsibility.

-- Arc hour. The Royal Academy of Engineering made it clear that

there needed to be a greater regulatory role from the Government

first of all and I think that is absolutely crucial. What do you

want to see? The concern is that there may be this natural

resource... There definitely is. Absolutely, but we must be careful

about the technology used to extract this natural resource.

There are concerns about my cross seismic activity and there is

evidence of that in the north-west where there has been a many tremors.

-- micro seismic. We have to tread with absolute caution. So you would

not yet say, go for it, even though there could be many jobs created?

There has to be a tight regulatory system in place a first. It has to

be said it that that is already the case. The Health and Safety Agency

would have to be absolute dissatisfied the safety and meeting

regulations. Mr Mitchell, a lot more safeguards do you want to know

about? It strikes me that you may be just against the idea itself?

Nor, I am not, but this technique, and populated areas where there are

still potential health concerns, serious health issues have been

noted within half a mile of these places. Research has been done into

Imagine you are suddenly taken ill. Would you rather go to the nearest

hospital or one that is further away but as a specialist unit? The

closure of the partners in East Lancashire has led to protests.

Ambulances are lined up outside Blackburn accident and emergency.

But some of these would have come from Burnley. Until recently the

town had its own emergency department, but not any more. It

was downgraded as part of a reorganisation that sort all 999

cases taken to Blackburn instead. The decision led to protests and

petitions across east Lancashire. We have not always been as honest

as we could be. We need to be able to say, we can offer you a better.

Perhaps we're not offering the best possible, and we can now offer you

it. If but he does what it will cost you. The same way that if you

need brain surgery or a premature baby delivered, you would expect

that to happen but not on your doorstep. It was a public-relations

disaster but the Trust insist it has been a success. Heart attacks

can now be treated very well. Dissolving the clot in the coronary

artery and stopping the attack in its tracks. By centralising Arras

service next to an emergency department in black bun we have

made enormous changes to the outcomes. -- centralising the

emergency service in Blackburn. would not like to be in an

ambulance that can potentially get stuck in a motorway jam. 95% of

what people need when they require emergency services should be

catered for in Burnley. As an MP I'll continue to fight until we get

that back. But the NHS Confederation of things that others

should follow the example. It has called on politicians to be bolder

in making for -- making the case for closing hospital units. The

head of the NHS Federation says that the problem is persuading

people to cling to their local district hospitals -- persuading

people who cling to their local district hospitals might not

guarantee the best services. 1 the patient group says that the

combined effect of changes has created confusion. These services

are in the meltdown. I get patients, here, specifically in Blackburn,

telling me be a letter in bed so for Arabs. They say they are being

treated from the backs of ambulances. That is not acceptable.

The trust insists that overall standards have risen. Occasionally

we are flustered when we get future flows are but we deal with them. --

when we get huge flows. Getting the public and the politicians onside

is proving a real challenge. I am now joined by the chairman of the

NHS Federation. Welcome to the programme. Are you convinced that

these more centrally organised services are better? Thrust, some

services can be provided more safely by putting them in centres

of excellence. -- forcibly. That gives us much better outcomes for

patients. But some services come the other way. So in parts of the

North West for example we are seeing mobile linear accelerators

available in all done where they were previously unavailable. We

have brought us closer to patients. -- available and Oldham. What is

the evidence that the service has improved for people living in

Burnley? My understanding is that it has improved the chances of

people surviving heart attacks by up to 20%. It is seven miles down

the motorway from barn-like to Blackburn hospitals. So our

discussion and debate with the public is to ask, do you believe

that an extra seven miles to improve your chances of surviving a

heart attack is worth the drive? But where does that figure come

from? It is the data and that the trust has gathered since moving the

Department. Certainly the data that I was aware of shows that they have

improved heart attack chances. In fact you own item showed that those

to survival rates are improving. That has to be a good thing. Shadow

health minister, do you want to see more of this kind of thing? People

want a balance of locality and the best services available. We took

difficult decisions when we winning government in order to reconfigure

or certain services in part of the country. Doors are often unpopular

Attie local level, I can understand that because ice a local Member of

Parliament I want to protect my hospital. But clinicians say that

is not always the best approach. it unpopular because people

perceive their worse-off, or because they actually are worse

off? I think it is the perception. The NHS is going through a massive

change. And so the way we do things has to be restructured different

life. But if it is about perception, we saw a Liberal-Democrat MP who

was saying that he is still against this after years of campaigning,

does that mean he is wrong? You could argue that his pandering to

that perception. The statistics show that specialist services have

brought improvements to NHS services in East Lancashire. That

speaks for itself. But we must take us on a case-by-case approach. We

must look at each hospital service and the way that the NHS provides

services. Less emphasis on hospital care and more and community care.

agree, but I would go further than just perception. People are

intuitively fearful if they see a service go. So we must convince

them that it is better. We have to keep monitoring. Michael has

referred to some statistics regards it surviving heart attacks. That is

definitely better in the short term but we must keep monitoring it.

Next April we'll former health and well-being bourbon that will give

the county council are better say. -- we will form a health and well-

being board. This is all about improving services for the people

of the Burnley, Blackburn, and in between. But intuitively they feel

that if you close an accident and emergency department down at that

it will take away a service. But the reverse is true because we can

concentrate the services to people and make sure they get a better

service. Off but we must keep convincing them, we do not say,

that is that done, we keep monitoring, keep making sure it is

working. As it because people are unconvinced when politicians say

that the service is better. I think both panellists are correct.

Doctors will be taking key decisions an hour clinical

commissioning groups. They are trusted by the public and I think

we should give them to explain why the changes are in their interests.

What instead need politicians to do is to take their lead. It is

difficult for politicians to make these arguments however when we

hear patients' groups saying that accident and emergency departments

are in meltdown. We absolutely need to get that right and it is

unacceptable if patients are waiting longer than the need to be

once we have reorganised services. But we need to get politicians are

unable to back up a strong clinical opinion saying that for all of us

this is the best thing. Sometimes politicians feel compelled to be at

the front of the March, when if we could give them better evidence and

explain to the public directly why this matters, then the politicians

are obliged to say, yes, we will Our round-up of the week's other

political news now. Two teenagers are suing Lancashire County Council

after a judge described their treatment and care as inhumane and

degrading. Been abused in foster homes and lost contact with their

worst home -- a family. The family of a lover April man watched by his

killers conviction strengthened and death by stabbing treated like

shooting. -- the family of a Liverpool man. And tributes have

been paid to the former Conservative MP, Ken Hargreaves,