Browse content similar to 12/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched, | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
But how should we tax those who work for themselves? | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling. | :01:04. | :01:12. | |
And in the North West, local budget reaction. | :01:13. | :01:13. | |
Has the Chancellor got businesses over a barrel? | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
Why there could be trouble brewing for Philip Hammond. | :01:16. | :01:29. | |
And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
who definitely don't deserve a tax break. | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer | :01:36. | :01:36. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial. | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous! | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50, | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates. | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
earlier this morning and he was asked what happens | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal | :02:07. | :02:17. | |
There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules. | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
The British people decided on June the 23rd last year | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
My job, and the job of the government, is to make | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible. | :02:38. | :02:47. | |
There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
government means by a meaningful vote. | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
think it would be politically impossible for the government to | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
politics will be completely different by then. I take David | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed. | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan | :04:03. | :04:04. | |
for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of | :04:54. | :04:55. | |
the process but there won't be a third option to send the government | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing. | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote, | :05:29. | :05:37. | |
if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another, | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here, | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said, | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
government. You've got to assume that unless something massively | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country... | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any. | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week. | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
to vote against their government on two key issues. | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
partners within days, but there may be some | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too. | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
Cast your mind back to the beginning of month. | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably | :07:20. | :07:20. | |
But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
the rights of EU citizens already in the UK. | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised. | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
But remember those numbers, they're important. | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from | :07:50. | :07:51. | |
I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
When the government was criticised for reeling back | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
from when and what it would offer a vote on. | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it | :08:21. | :08:22. | |
And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them. | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
But, as ever, politics is a numbers game. | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
Theresa May has a working majority of 17. | :08:51. | :08:51. | |
On Brexit, though, it's probably higher. | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
At least six Labour MPs generally vote with | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
If all Conservatives vote with the government as well, | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May? | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion? | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
This building is a really important building. | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
It's symbolic of a huge amount of history. | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside. | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
It was already said about David Jones. | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
It's slightly unravelled a little bit during | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
One said the situation was sad and depressing. | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached. | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
But that its position was unlikely to change. | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
round would look silly if they did, this time. | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail, | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned. | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons. | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
that this is the last chance to have a say on this. | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it. | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended, | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
have already indicated they won't block it again. | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
would be free to trigger Article 50 within days. | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Her own deadline was the end of this month. | :11:23. | :11:24. | |
But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early. | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry. | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
She's previously voted against the government on the question | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal. | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
means through your elected representatives, the people of this | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on | :12:37. | :12:38. | |
Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does... | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to | :13:51. | :13:52. | |
what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be. | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options. | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords | :14:18. | :14:25. | |
amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we | :14:26. | :14:27. | |
call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations, | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is | :15:25. | :15:35. | |
asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill. | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
I will either vote against my government, which I do not do | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map. | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving | :17:46. | :17:57. | |
the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
different from your own? I am delighted there are people now | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30 | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution. | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is, | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60 | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date. | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an | :26:26. | :26:34. | |
interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather | :26:35. | :26:35. | |
than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes | :26:41. | :26:42. | |
affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase | :26:49. | :26:50. | |
in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay | :26:53. | :27:01. | |
more National Insurance The controversy centres | :27:02. | :27:03. | |
on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy, | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip | :27:34. | :27:34. | |
Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
said the government One of the first things I did | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
and protections that were available to self-employed workers | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
at the government paper when we produce it, showing | :27:59. | :28:00. | |
all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing | :28:13. | :28:14. | |
a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided | :28:15. | :28:28. | |
the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
decent and all jobs give people scope for development and | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance -- | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well. | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When | :30:45. | :30:54. | |
people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
real historical basis for that big national insurance differential, | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers, | :31:09. | :31:10. | |
women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things. | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. -- | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky. | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for | :32:43. | :32:51. | |
the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour. | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us? | :33:45. | :33:46. | |
Yes. We say goodbye to viewers | :33:47. | :33:48. | |
in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes, | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
of Donald Trump's allegation I'm Nina Warhurst, coming up | :33:59. | :34:10. | |
in the North West... Has the Chancellor got | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
businesses over a barrel? That's the problem I've got | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
with this government at the minute - they used to be the government | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
of business, now they're Well, stirring things up | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
here in the studio are two Jeff Smith is the Labour MP | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
for Manchester Withington. David Mowat the Conservative | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
for Warrington South and also Minister responsible | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
for Community, Health and Care. It's budget week! | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
How was it for you, David? Well, I think it was | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
a good budget on the whole. I suppose that the things that sort | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
of hit me most were the growth forecasts have increased. | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
That means more jobs. And, as you say, I'm | :34:53. | :34:54. | |
the Minister for social care, so I was very pleased | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
that the Chancellor came up with No doubt a different | :34:58. | :34:59. | |
take for you, Jeff? Well, I thought it was | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
very disappointing? Well, I thought it was | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
very disappointing. Not just because of the broken | :35:06. | :35:06. | |
promises on national insurance, but I don't think it has | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
the long-term answers. I think the long-term outlook | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
is not as optimistic OK, and you're not alone in that | :35:12. | :35:13. | |
Jeff, because even some of Philip Hammond's Conservative | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
colleagues said that tax rises for the self-employed would hardly | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
have the white van man popping So was there anything | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
at all to toast? Well, that was more money | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
for social care, as David said, a bit of help for business rate | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
payers, and a small boost for pubs. Guess where Stuart Pollitt chose | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
to go to see if it's cheers Market day and | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
Budget day in Lancaster. All eyes on the man | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
controlling the money. As pints were pulled | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
in the Sun Hotel, the boss was as interested in business rates | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
as he was in beer prices. The rates on this place | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
have gone up ?70,000. Have you seen anything | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
there that helps you? No, it was a very | :36:01. | :36:01. | |
disappointing budget for me. There were three options | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
that the Chancellor mentioned. So the last one is discretionary, | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
so Lord knows what that means! In the same bar, two councillors - | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
one Tory, one Labour - The report that we had done last | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
year by PricewaterhouseCoopers shows we've got a ?90 billion spending gap | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
for adult social care and, on the figures announced today, | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
we're looking at perhaps ?30 million may come to Lancashire, | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
although we need to see I think there was some really | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
important things for Lancashire, particularly the ?90 million | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
for highways in It's money coming up from London | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
and, with the announcement on social care, I think that's a huge step | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
in the right direction. This brewery runs the Sun | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
and four other pubs. The rates on one of them | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
has gone up nearly 500%. They feel like a business | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
under attack. We've got the pension rights coming | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
soon, national minimum wage. It's hitting the traders, | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
the high street traders, the most - the retail and leisure sector - | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
the actual guys that go out there and then | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
there's their companies and actually And that's the problem I've got | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
with this government at the minute. They used to be the government | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
of business, now they're Well, they won't be raising a glass | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
here at the brewery to this budget, but what's the view across the city | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
for those who want to make a living, These students in the catering | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
college have big ambitions. Eventually, like, I want to move to | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
London and have my own restaurant. I really want to go ahead | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
and work in a kitchen, I really want to go | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
ahead and push myself. The Chancellor announced new money | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
for technical education like this, creating what some have dubbed | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
T-Levels for 16 to 18-year-olds. That will materialise | :37:50. | :37:57. | |
in '19, maybe 2020, so, I mean, that would be | :37:58. | :37:59. | |
a really valuable investment. The technical qualifications | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
are exactly what the employment But what the college needs, | :38:03. | :38:04. | |
like a lot of educational establishments, is more cash | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
to help you deliver. -- establishments, is more | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
cash to help it deliver. Within the schools, you'll find that | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
sixth form students are funded far better than a student that | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
comes to college. The Chancellor didn't have much | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
of that to dish out, but was his approach | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
the right recipe for this region? David, the brewery director | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
there summed up the attitude You;ve stopped being the government | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
of business, now you're I mean, he did say that | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
and he was concerned about business rates, | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
and I understand that, but I would say this that in general | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
the re-evaluation that's taken place, which is a net neutral thing | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
across the whole country, has benefited the North | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
and the North West Clearly, the guy that you spoke to, | :38:50. | :38:51. | |
in terms of the package that you did, wasn't in that place, | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
but in general... But there were 6000 start-ups | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
in Warrington last year. They will struggle, won't they, | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
with these increases in national insurance contribution | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
and also with dividends? Well, in terms of, first of all, | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
on the business rates point, Warrington is a net winner | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
on the changes to business rates that the government has brought in, | :39:13. | :39:14. | |
and I'm pleased about that. The point you just raised | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
on national insurance, um, yes, it does affect people that | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
are self-employed and it puts them on a similar tax bases to those | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
that are not self-employed and it's actually a progressive change | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
and it's a change that I think probably had to be made. | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
Does it not jar, though...? In general, those that are poorly | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
paid, you know, under ?20,000, But does it not jar | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
with the Conservative spirit of encouraging the entrepreneurial | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
spirit, supporting small businesses? Giving them the financial | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
freedom to thrive? Look, we are the party of low tax, | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
so we would prefer lower taxes for everybody, | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
but we're also the party of fair tax, and it just isn't fair | :39:55. | :39:56. | |
if somebody that is employed, and is earning ?30,000 a year, | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
is paying a significantly different amount of tax than somebody | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
that is self-employed and earning ?30,000 a year, possibly working | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
side-by-side with them. That is what the Chancellor | :40:05. | :40:06. | |
has been fixing. Did we need to level | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
the playing field? Well, I don't think it has | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
levelled the playing field, I think the problem is that we're | :40:14. | :40:15. | |
taking money from the lower and middle income earners | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
at the same time as we are giving ?3.8 billion in cuts | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
to corporation tax. And I think the Labour Party | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
would make different choices. I mean, the national | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
insurance change hits those that are paid the most. | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
It's a very progressive thing. And the Resolution Foundation | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
and others have accepted that. But what about the dividends, | :40:33. | :40:34. | |
tax-free dividends coming down from ?5,000 to ?2000? | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
Yes. That's going to affect medium | :40:37. | :40:37. | |
business owners, isn't it? Well, it's also a very | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
progressive thing. I mean, the people that are affected | :40:40. | :40:41. | |
mostly by that, the most by that, are those with share portfolios | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
outside of ISAs worth Now, if those are the people | :40:46. | :40:46. | |
that the Labour Party think ought to be the government's priority, | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
the Labour Party has changed even But why has the Federation | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
of Small Businesses said that this will not help Warrington's upwards | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
turn when it comes to business? Well, I mean, because it is a tax | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
increase, and there are people, like I say, who are earning ?30,000 | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
at the moment, who are paying significantly lower amounts of tax, | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
because they're self-employed, than they would've been | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
had they been employed. But it undermines the government's | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
own mission for the UK to be Well, look, if I was self-employed, | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
and I had a historic tax anomaly, which is what it is, | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
that was beneficial to me, and the government took it away | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
from me, albeit in a progressive way, yes, I would be saying those | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
sorts of things too. If this was a Labour policy, | :41:31. | :41:32. | |
you'd be right behind it. It's redistribution, isn't it? | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
I don't think it is redistribution. If you take it in conjunction | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
with the class two abolition, then that's where you could see | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
it is as a redistribution, but the class twos have | :41:46. | :41:47. | |
already been introduced, so these changes to class four | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
are not really redistributed. And just going back to your business | :41:54. | :41:55. | |
rate question, I met with the Chorlton traders last week | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
in my constituency, You know, I welcome the money | :41:59. | :42:00. | |
that's going into the pubs for their business rate, | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
but it's not enough to allay the worries of the businesses | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
in South Manchester. They've said | :42:08. | :42:08. | |
it's good for businesses. I mean, the facts are, | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
on the business rates, it's overwhelmingly neutral and | :42:12. | :42:13. | |
it's overall of benefit to the North versus the South, and the reason | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
for that is because the change that's been made in the revaluation | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
follows what the properties are worth and, on the whole, | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
places like London have seen values And like I say, my constituency | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
will benefit from it. OK, I'm sure we'll be | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
back to that topic. Now, in the run up to the Budget, | :42:31. | :42:32. | |
there was one issue dominated, though - | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
it was that of social care. Here's how three of our MPs reacted | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
to the ?2 billion over three years that Philip Hammond has found | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
for local councils. The NHS and social care needs | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
between 8.5 and 15 billion, just to get by, quite frankly, | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
so there will be a lot of people in my constituency that'll be | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
worried about their future, and whether they're going to get | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
the care they need! The social care budget breaks down | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
to about ?40 per head. Yeah, but we've already got | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
the Better Care Fund, This is additional funding | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
to recognise that more needs to be done to help with social care, | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
and it's not just about money. I think we've talked in the past | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
about how we need to be more innovative about joining up | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
social care and the NHS together. The Chancellor is - | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
at the same time, it's worth bearing in mind - | :43:20. | :43:21. | |
giving away something like ?6 billion in tax cuts | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
through capital gains, through, for example, | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
inheritance tax cuts for people That's giveaways | :43:29. | :43:30. | |
he didn't need to give. He could've been spending | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
that money on social care. David, you are the minister | :43:35. | :43:36. | |
responsible for Community, Did you really think, | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
did the Chancellor really think that 2 billion over three years | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
would even touch the sides? 2 billion is the gap | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
that we've been asked for by the LGA and others, | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
in terms of meeting I was in Liverpool at | :43:50. | :43:51. | |
a conference on Thursday. I mean, that city is getting | :43:52. | :44:01. | |
an increase just by the announcement at the budget | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
of almost 10%, in terms of an uplift, | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
to its social care budgets. But because of the redistribution | :44:07. | :44:08. | |
of their budget, they're having to do things like get rid | :44:09. | :44:10. | |
of foster carers? Well, we're talking | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
about the budget. ?2 billion is a great deal of money | :44:14. | :44:14. | |
and it's going to make a great deal of difference | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
and, as a matter of fact, that money also, in terms | :44:19. | :44:20. | |
of where the allocation formula works, is a particular | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
benefit to the North West, because the precept | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
is of less benefit here. But let's talk about some | :44:26. | :44:26. | |
of the cuts in social care We've been told they'll have | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
to reduce respite care, which will put | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
a greater burden on carers. They'll have to increase charges | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
for hospital transport, reduce money for end-of-life care, | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
disabilities - these are important elements that affect people's lives, | :44:43. | :44:44. | |
their health and happiness. And all those points are right, | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
but Warrington, two days ago, were informed that they're getting | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
?4 million extra for social care, that is a significant | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
amount of money for any council I was responsible for | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
lobbying, amongst others, But Pat Wright, the councillor | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
in charge of social care in Warrington, says, | :45:02. | :45:09. | |
"No, we are at rock bottom, "we don't have enough money to do | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
what we want to do in order I mean, just on the facts, | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
42% of all councils, 42% of all councils in the country, | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
increased their social care budget OK, Jeff, the truth is, despite this | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
being desperately unpopular, the Tories are still well ahead | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
in the polls. Yeah, but just going back | :45:29. | :45:30. | |
to the social care, the King's Fund have said that we need ?2 billion | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
straightaway just to sustain things. Per year. | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
Per year. So I think probably David | :45:39. | :45:39. | |
is secretly disappointed this But we've taken 4.6 billion out | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
of social care since 2010, During the course of this | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
Parliament, social care In Manchester, we've had to take | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
?17 million out of social care. We've had to change | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
the criteria in Manchester. So people who were getting help | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
and though not getting help, -- So people who were getting help | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
are now not getting help, because of the actions | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
of this government. I mean, just on the point of fact, | :46:05. | :46:05. | |
Manchester has got... It is illegal for Manchester | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
to change the criteria. The criteria was set out | :46:09. | :46:10. | |
in the Care Act of 2014, which set out what the statutory | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
criteria are for social care, and Manchester, like every other | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
local authority in the country, has got a statutory duty | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
to provide care packages Yeah, and we used to provide extra | :46:19. | :46:20. | |
to the statutory duty and now, a couple of years ago, | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
we had to reduce that David, we've got the King's Fund, | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
we've got the LGA, the Conservative local councils, | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
the opposition, all saying... Lots of Conservative MPs | :46:31. | :46:32. | |
saying this is a shambles, I don't think they are saying | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
that post the announcement They've all said that | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
post announcement. Can you name which Conservative | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
MPs have said that since the announcement? | :46:42. | :46:43. | |
I think you'll struggle. We could probably find | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
lots of other MPs... Well, I'm sure Jeff will say it! | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
I will, I will! You said I was secretly | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
That was an extremely good settlement, in the context | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
of the overall public finances, which we are still trying | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
to pay off the deficit, and that is an overriding point | :46:59. | :47:00. | |
that is still there, that we inherited in 2010. | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
But this settlement exceeded expectations and, frankly, | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
I spoke to a number of stakeholders in charities and the care home | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
sector after the announcement that was made, and they were | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
pleased by this. Jeff... | :47:15. | :47:15. | |
And I... Sorry, yeah. | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
Austerity lives on - that was the message | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
He stood up and said this will go on, it has to go on, | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
44% of people think that the current way austerity is being dealt with | :47:25. | :47:33. | |
is unfair, but only 8% would prefer Jeremy Corbyn | :47:34. | :47:35. | |
And we clearly need to get our message across. | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
I think what is clear... What is the message? | :47:40. | :47:41. | |
Well, what is clear is that austerity is not working, is it? | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
And the government keep having to revise their figures. | :47:45. | :47:46. | |
They said they'd get rid of the deficit by 2015. | :47:47. | :47:48. | |
It now looks like it will go to at least 2022. | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
So the government's plan is not working. | :47:52. | :47:52. | |
But hang on, hang on, people don't believe there's | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
a credible opposition to the government, do they? | :47:56. | :47:57. | |
Well, so we need to communicate better, we need to make sure | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
that our policies will... Do you need a different leader? | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
Look, I don't think the public would welcome a leadership contest now, | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
when we've got Brexit happening, we've got lots of major problems. | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
I think for the Labour Party to be in the middle of a leadership | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
I think people would see that as a dereliction of duty | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
to the job we've got to do, which is to take the opposition... | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
And it doesn't worry you that only 8% of the public think that | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
McDonnell would've done a better job on the budget? | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
And our trailing in the polls worries me. | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
You know, we shouldn't hide from this, this is a problem for us, | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
so we just need to redouble our work and make sure that we take | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
I mean, Labour's position is that we need to borrow another | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
?500 million and presumably borrow it, if it's not from | :48:40. | :48:41. | |
the magic money tree. Well... | :48:42. | :48:43. | |
And, you know, Jeff said that we have revised the figures | :48:44. | :48:45. | |
this week and that is true, the Chancellor has revised | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
the borrowing figures this week, because the economy is growing | :48:49. | :48:50. | |
faster than expected, borrowing is coming down | :48:51. | :48:52. | |
during the rest of this Parliament more quickly than expected, that is | :48:53. | :48:54. | |
true, and I'm pleased about it. Jeff? | :48:55. | :48:56. | |
Well, we've never said we want to borrow ?500 million. | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
What we have said is that interest rates are at a record low, | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
now is the time to borrow to invest for the long term, | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
to invest in the infrastructure and the productivity that | :49:06. | :49:07. | |
would make our economy recover, because, at the moment, it's not. | :49:08. | :49:09. | |
So, there is some help for social care, but that leaves the small | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
matter of how local councils protect the rest of their services. | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
Kevin Fitzpatrick has an update on one council's attempts to keep | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
them afloat by getting local people to play their part. | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
Swimming pools and libraries, Sure Start centres and museums - | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
Swimming pools and libraries, children's centres and museums - | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
many have closed their doors to the public as austerity | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
But in Wigan, everything has remained open. | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
Facilities, like this one in Tyldsley, are now | :49:39. | :49:40. | |
It's part of a policy shift, which has seen the council reduce | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
costs by keeping hold of buildings, but transfering responsibility | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
to the community. It's become known as the Wigan Deal. | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
We thought that there was enough interest from groups who are already | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
using these buildings to take some of the responsibilities | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
on and we put money in there, which was like an investor save, | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
in terms of helping people to start up, and it's worked well | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
in terms of the usage now of these facilities. | :50:06. | :50:07. | |
Like many councils in the North West, Wigan will have lost | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
around 40% of its 2010 budget by 2020. | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
Others do now have some facilities run by volunteers, | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
but Wigan has handed over as many as possible. | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
26 community buidlings and 18 playing field | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
areas are now currently, or soon to be, | :50:25. | :50:26. | |
Under its new volunteer management team, the Sunshine House community | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
centre in Scholes appears to have thrived. | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
I think that they are doing a wonderful job. | :50:39. | :50:40. | |
They are giving back to the community what | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
You get the right person in, you know, Barbara | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
is doing a marvellous job at handling her staff. | :50:49. | :50:50. | |
I'm told I'm always talking about it. | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
I said, "Well, you talk about things you enjoy." | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
Ten times as many people now come through their doors every week | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
and they're expanding into an empty building next door. | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
We are a successful business, you know, and I think the fact | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
that the council give us the freedom and the opportunity to do | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
Last year, Lancashire County Council closed 26 | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
In Cheshire East, four Sure Start centres have gone. | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
While currently, in Bury, they're considering shutting up | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
We would make a genuine effort to find out what people | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
want the council to run, what they want them to fund. | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
This is something that people want the council to fund, | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
which is why we would fight to keep this library and others. | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
With Manchester among other councils now following in Wigan's footsteps, | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
it could be that, in future, we'll see more communities running | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
facilities themselves, if they want to keep them. | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
Jeff, that put a smile on all of our faces. | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
What's wrong with local communities, with the community spirit being used | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
Well, nothing wrong with community spirit, that's great, | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
and my local swimming baths has been taken over by a community. | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
Yeah. They do a fantastic job. | :52:06. | :52:06. | |
But the trouble is, it's not necessarily | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
a sustainable solution long-term, is it? | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
So they are working hard to keep the bus going, | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
-- So they are working hard to keep the baths going, | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
but they are always scrambling around. | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
And it's happened with libraries and other committee | :52:21. | :52:21. | |
Groups take them over, have to work really hard, | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
they're always scrambling around for that future long-term funding, | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
and if they have a big problem, capital problem, that isn't | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
and if they have a big problem, a capital problem, there isn't | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
Say the water pump broke in our local baths, | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
they'd have a big problem. That's it. | :52:40. | :52:41. | |
It's not even the big jobs. It's the little jobs. | :52:42. | :52:43. | |
The tiles falling off in the swimming pool. | :52:44. | :52:45. | |
What happens then, David? Well... | :52:46. | :52:46. | |
You can't rely on people's good nature for ever. | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
I mean, it was a nice package. And no, you can't. | :52:50. | :52:51. | |
I mean, I think it's good the community steps forward | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
sometimes, and we've seen that with our libraries in Warrington. | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
Public services also do need to be properly funded and we started this | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
whole programme by people complaining about business rates | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
when, unfortunately, you know, we do have to pay rates and taxes | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
which, in the end, fund our public services and there's no | :53:05. | :53:06. | |
getting away from that, and there isn't a magic money | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
tree, and we just need to get the right balance. | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
And that's what the government are doing. | :53:12. | :53:13. | |
Oh, that there were a magic money tree! | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
With tributes to a landmark of literature and the rest | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
of this week's news, now here's Carol Lowe | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
The Vice Chair of the Wallasey Labour Party could face | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
Paul Davies has been referred to the party's disciplinary body | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
Labour and the Lib Dems in Pendle were accused of turning a blind eye | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
to racism amid claims of a deal with the British National Party's | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
Doing deals with the British National Party is utterly | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
repugnant and unacceptable, whether at local council | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
18 months after water contamination affected hundreds of thousands | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
of people in Lancashire, the organisation investigating says | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
it's still not ready to announce its findings. | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
500 animal deaths in less than four years, and now no license. | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
Councillors in Barrow ruled that South Lakes Safari Zoo | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
And remembering a giant of political literature. | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
It's 80 years since George Orwell exposed the grimness of life | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
for millions in The Road to Wigan Pier. | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
Before we go, there were concerns this week for car workers | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
from General Motors. PSA Group bought Vauxhall | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
The plant currently employs 2,000 people, making the Astra, | :54:36. | :54:37. | |
It's thought the group could have too many plants across Europe, | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
and Brexit might impact which of them ends up closing. | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
The problem really is that Ellesmere Port, | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
like the British industry, is heavily dependent on imported | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
It would be easier, after Brexit, to do that on the European mainland. | :54:52. | :55:00. | |
We'll be triggering Article 50 before we know it. | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
David, this is the beginning, isn't it, that we need to really about? | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
Well, the takeover in Ellesmere Port isn't to do with Brexit. | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
I mean, I voted to Remain, but the country didn't. | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
No, but 57% of our imports are from the EU. | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
And what I'm about to say, though, is that one of the things that | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
will benefit the competitiveness in Ellesmere Port is that | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
our exchange rate has gone down post-Brexit, | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
it's actually gone down by more than the tariffs would be, | :55:30. | :55:31. | |
and that would make them more competitive vis-a-vis some | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
of the plants in Europe that they will have to compete | :55:35. | :55:36. | |
But it's extremely important, and Greg Clark knows there's, | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
it's extremely important that we keep Ellesmere. | :55:41. | :55:42. | |
But there will be tariffs when it comes to import and export? | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
Yes, but actually, the tariffs will be lower than the exchange rate | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
However, I don't want to minimise it. | :55:49. | :55:50. | |
You know, it's vital that companies like Nissan in Sunderland, | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, Jaguar in Liverpool, | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
it's vital that all of these companies stay with us and grow | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
and, actually, up till now, that is what's happening. | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
Our economy is growing faster than anybody else | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
in Europe at the moment and growing faster post-Brexit. | :56:08. | :56:09. | |
Jeff, how do we make sure these countries are protected | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
-- Jeff, how do we make sure these companies are protected | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
in these uncertain times? Well, it's going to be difficult. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
In terms of the Astra, it imports more parts, but we need an | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
intervention and this government helping out the car industry and | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
whether that is help with business rates, investment in training and | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
skills to improve productivity, that is how we sustain the future for the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
and Greg Clark has spoken to the and Greg Clark has spoken to the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
management of Ellesmere Port, and not much difference tween Jeff and | :56:47. | :56:55. | |
me on that. Lovely and we end on that point of agreement. | :56:56. | :56:57. | |
Phil McCann has the onerous task of heading to Cannes for us next | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
week, as local council leaders look for funding in the South of France. | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
Now the government plans for new grammar schools. | :57:05. | :57:19. | |
The Education Secretary Justine Greening was | :57:20. | :57:21. | |
speaking to a conference of headteachers on Friday. | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
They're normally a pretty polite bunch, but they didn't | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
Broadcasters weren't allowed into the speech, | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
but this was captured on a camera phone. | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
And we have to recognise actually for grammars, in terms of | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
disadvantaged children, that they have, they really | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
do help them close the attainment gap. | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
And at the same time we should recognise that | :57:47. | :57:48. | |
..That parents also want choice for their children and that | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
those schools are often very oversubscribed. | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
I suppose it is a rite of passage for and education secretaries to | :58:03. | :58:11. | |
have this at a head teachers conference book the head are usually | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
more polite. Isn't part of the problem, whether one is for or | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
against the expansion of grammar schools, the government plans are | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
complicated, you cannot sum them up in a sentence. The proof of that is | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
they can still get away with denying they are expanding grammar schools. | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
They will find an alternative formulation because it is not as | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
simple as a brute creation of what we used to know is grammar schools | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
with the absolute cut-off of the 11 plus. I am surprised how easy they | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
found it politically. We saw the clip of Justine Greening being | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
jeered a little bit but in the grand scheme, compared to another | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
government trying this idea a decade ago they have got away with it | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
easily and I think what is happening is a perverse consequence of Brexit | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
and the media attention on Brexit, the government of the day can just | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
about get away with slightly more contentious domestic policies on the | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
correct assumption we will be too busy investing our attention in | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
Article 50 and two years of negotiations, WTO terms at | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
everything we have been discussing. I wonder if after grammar schools | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
there will be examples of contentious domestic policies | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
Theresa May can slide in stock because Brexit sucks the life out, | :59:31. | :59:39. | |
takes the attention away. You are a supporter. Broadly. Are you happy | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
with the government approach? They need to have more gumption and stop | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
being apologetic. It is a bazaar area of public policy where we judge | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
the policy on grammar schools based on what it does for children whose | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
parents are unemployed, living on sink estates in Liverpool. It is | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
absurd, we don't judge any other policy like that. It is simple, not | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
contentious, people who are not sure, ask them if they would apply | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
to send their child there, six out of ten said they would. Parents want | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
good schools for their children, we should have appropriate education | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
and they should be straightforward, this is about the future of the | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
economy and we need bright children to get education at the highest | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
level, education for academically bright children. It is supposed to | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
be a signature policy of the Theresa May administration that marks a | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
government different from David Cameron's government who did not go | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
down this road. The signature is pretty blurred, it is hard to read. | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
It is. She is trying to address concerns about those who fail to get | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
into these selective schools and tried to targeted in poorer areas | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
and the rest of it. She will probably come across so many | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
obstacles. It is not clear what form it will take in the end. It is | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
really an example of a signature policy not fully thought through. I | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
think it was one of her first announcements. It was. It surprised | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
everybody. Surprised at the speed and pace at which they were planning | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
to go. Ever since, there have been qualifications and hesitations en | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
route with good cause, in my view. I disagree with Juliet that this is... | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
We all want good schools but if you don't get in there and you end up in | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
a less good school. They already do that. We have selection based on the | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
income of parents getting into a good catchment area, based on the | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
faith of the parents. That becomes very attainable! I might been too | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
shot run christenings for these. -- I have been. | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
Now, you may remember this time last week we were talking | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
about the extraordinary claims by US President Donald Trump, | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
on Twitter of course, that Barack Obama had ordered | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
And there was me thinking that wiretaps went out | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
Is it legal for a sitting President to do so, he asked, | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
concluding it was a "new low", and later comparing it to Watergate. | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
Since then, the White House has been pressed to provide evidence for this | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
It hasn't, but it seems it may have initially come from a report on a US | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
website by the former Conservative MP Louise Mensch. | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
She wrote that the FBI had been granted a warrant to intercept | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
communications between Trump's campaign and Russia. | :02:26. | :02:33. | |
Well, Louise Mensch joins us now from New York. | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
Louise, you claimed in early November that the FBI had secured a | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
court warrants to monitor communications between trump Tower | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
in New York at two Russian banks. It's now four months later. Isn't it | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
the case that nobody has proved the existence of this warrant? | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
First of all, forgive me Andrew, one takes 1's life in one's hand when it | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
is you but I have to correct your characterisation of my reporting. It | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
is very important. I did not report that the FBI had a warrant to | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
intercept anything or that Trump tower was any part of it. What I | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
reported was that the FBI obtained a warrant is targeted on all | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
communications between two Russian banks and were, therefore, allowed | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
to examine US persons in the context of their investigation. What the | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
Americans call legally incidental collection. I certainly didn't | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
report that the warrant was able to intercept or that it had location | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
basis, for example Trump tower. I just didn't report that. The reason | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
that matters so much is that I now believe based on the President's | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
reaction, there may well be a wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
Donald Trump has just tweeted out evidence in an ongoing criminal case | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
that neither I nor anybody else reported. He is right about | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
Watergate because he will have committed obstruction of justice | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
directly from his Twitter account. Let me come back as thank you for | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
clarifying. Let me come back to the question. -- and thank you. We have | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
not yet got proof that this warrant exists, do we? No and we are most | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
unlikely to get it because it would be a heinous crime for Donald Trump | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
to reveal its existence. In America they call it a Glomar response. I | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
can neither confirm nor deny. That is what all American officials will | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
have to say legally. If you are looking for proof, you won't get it | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
until and unless a court cases brought. But that doesn't mean it | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
doesn't exist. The BBC validated this two months after me in their | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
reporting by the journalist Paul Wood. The Guardian, they also | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
separately from their own sources validated the existence of the | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
warrant. If you are in America, you would know that CNN and others are | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
reporting that the investigation in ongoing. Let me come onto the wider | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
point. You believe the Trump campaign including the president | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
were complicit with the Russians during the 2016 election campaign to | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
such an extent that Mr Trump should be impeached. What evidence did you | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
have? That is an enormous amount of | :05:16. | :05:25. | |
evidence. You could start with him saying, hey, Russia, if you are | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
listening, please release all the Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
not evidence. I think it rather is, actually. Especially if you look at | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
some of the evidence that exists on Twitter and elsewhere of people | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
talking directly to his social media manager, Dan should be no and | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
telling him to do that before it happened. There is a bit out there. | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
The BBC itself reported that in April of last year, a six agency | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
task force, not just the FBI, but the Treasury Department, was looking | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
at this. I believe there is an enormous amount of evidence. And | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
then there is the steel dossier which was included in an official | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
report of the US intelligence committee. You've also ... Just to | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
be clear, we don't have hard evidence yet whether this warrant | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
exists. It may or may not. There is doubt about... There are claims | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
about whether there is evidence about Mr Trump and the Russians. | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
That is another matter. You claimed that President Putin had Andrew | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
Breitbart murdered to pave the way for Steve Bannon to play a key role | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
in the Trump administration. I haven't. You said that Steve Bannon | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
is behind bomb threats to Jewish community centres. Aren't you in | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
danger of just peddling wild conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
haven't. No matter how many times people say this, it's not going to | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
be true -- first of all. I said in twitter I believe that to be the | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
case about the murder of Andrew Breitbart. You believe President | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
Putin murdered him. I didn't! You said I reported it, but I believed | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
it. You put it on twitter that you believed it but you don't have a | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I know made assertions. What is the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
evidence that Mr Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
it. You may believe there are fairies at the bottom of your | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
garden, it doesn't make it true. I may indeed. And if I say so, that's | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
my belief. If I say I am reporting, as I did with the Fisa warrant | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
exists, I have a basis in fact. They believe is just a belief. I know you | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
are relatively new to journalism. Let me get the rules right. Andrew, | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
jealousy is not your colour... If it is twitter, we don't believe it but | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
if it is on your website, we should believe it? If I report something | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
and I say this happened, then I am making an assertion. If I describe a | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
belief, I am describing a belief. Subtlety may be a little difficult | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
for you... No, no. If you want to be a journalist, beliefs have to be | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
backed up with evidence. Really? Do you have a faith? It's not a matter | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
of faith, maybe in your case, that President Putin murdered Andrew | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Breitbart. A belief and a report at two different things and no matter | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
how often you say that they are the same, they will never be the same. | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
You've said in today's Sunday Times here in London that you've turned | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
into" a temporary superpower" where you "See things really clearly". | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
Have you become delusional? No. I am describing a biological basis for | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
ADHD, which I have. As any of your viewers who are doctors will know. | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
It provides people with unfortunately a lot of scattered | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
focus, they are very messy and absent-minded but when they are | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
interested in things and they have ADHD they can have a condition which | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
is hyper focus. You concentrate very hard on a given subject and you can | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
see patterns and connections. That is biological. Thank you for | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
explaining that. And for getting up early in New York. The first time | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
ever I have interviewed a temporary superpower. Thank you. You are so | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
lucky! You are so lucky! I don't think it's going to happen again. | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
Please don't ask us to comment on that interview! I will not ask you, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
viewers will make up their own minds. Let's come back to be more | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
mundane world of Article 50. Stop the killing! | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
Will it get through at the government wanted it? Without the | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Lords amendment falling by the way that? I am sure the Lord will not | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
try to ping-pong this back and forth. So we are at the end of this | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
particular legislative phase. The fact that all three Brexit Cabinet | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
ministers, number ten often don't like one of them going out on a | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
broadcast interview on a Sunday, they've all been out and about. That | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
suggests to me they are working on the assumption it will be triggered | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
this week. This week. The negotiations will begin or at least | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
the process begins. The negotiation process may be difficult, given all | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
of the European elections. The Dutch this week. And then the French and | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
maybe the Italians and certainly the Germans by the end of September, | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
which is less predictable than it was. Given all that, what did you | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom on her part, that we may just end up | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
crashing out in six months question -- fear on her part. It was not just | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
that that we made that deliberately organising. I want us to get on with | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
the deals. Everyone knows a good deal is the | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
best option. Who knows what is going to be on the table when we finally | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
go out? Fascinatingly, the demand for some money back, given the | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
amount of money... Net gains and net costs in terms of us leaving for the | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
EU. It is all to play for. That will be a possible early grounds for a | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
confrontation between the UK and the EU. My understanding is that they | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
expect to do a deal on reciprocal rights of EU nationals, EU nationals | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
here, UK citizens there, quite quickly. They want to clear that up | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
and that will be done. Then they will hit this problem that the EU | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
will be saying you've got to agree the divorce Bill first before we | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
talk about the free trade bill. David Davis saying quite clearly, | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
no, they go together because of the size of the bill. It will be | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
determined, in our part, by how good the access will be. The mutual | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
recognition of EU residents' rights is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
is attracted to that subject but it is the easiest thing to deal with, | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
as is free movement for tourists. Money is what will make it | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly quickly. I imagine the dominant | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
story in the summer will be all about that. This was Anna Soubry's | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
implication, members of the governors could strongly argue, | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
things are so poisonous and so unpleasant at the moment, the | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
dealers are advancing -- members of the government. Why not call it a | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
day and go out on WTO terms while public opinion is still in that | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
direction in that Eurosceptic direction? No buyers' remorse about | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
last year's referendum. The longer they leave it, view more opportunity | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
there is for some kind of public resistance and change of mind to | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
take place. The longer believe it, the more people who voted for Brexit | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
and people who voted Remain and think we didn't get world War three | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
will start being quite angry with the EU for not agreeing a deal. In | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
terms of the rights of EU nationals he and Brits abroad, by all | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed individually. Angela Merkel is the | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
only person who has held that up. That will be dealt with in a matter | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
of days. The chances of a deal being done is likely but in ten seconds... | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
It would not be a bad bet to protect your on something not happening, you | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
might get pretty good odds? The odds are going up that a deal doesn't | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
happen. But, as I said earlier, the House of Commons will not endorse no | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
deal. We are either in an early election or she has to go back | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
again. Either way, you will need us! We will be back at noon tomorrow on | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
BBC Two ahead of what looks like being a big week in politics. We | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
will be back here same time, same place. | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:35. | :14:38. | |
They're calling it an entertainment extravaganza | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
audience fun and frolics and outrageous shenanigans. | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
And I don't even know what those HONK words mean. | :14:51. | :14:54. |