12/03/2017 Sunday Politics North West


12/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:38.

David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:39.:00:43.

ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:44.:00:45.

We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:46.:00:50.

Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:51.:00:53.

But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:00:54.:01:01.

And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:02.:01:03.

We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

:01:04.:01:12.

And in the North West, local budget reaction.

:01:13.:01:13.

Has the Chancellor got businesses over a barrel?

:01:14.:01:15.

Why there could be trouble brewing for Philip Hammond.

:01:16.:01:29.

And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

:01:30.:01:31.

who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

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It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

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abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

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BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

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So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

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perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

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Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

:01:57.:01:59.

getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

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earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

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Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

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There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

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That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

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The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

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My job, and the job of the government, is to make

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the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

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There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

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it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

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government means by a meaningful vote.

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I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:01.:03:07.

for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

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think it would be politically impossible for the government to

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reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

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politics will be completely different by then. I take David

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Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

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being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

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Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

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three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

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is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

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floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:41.:03:44.

than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:45.:03:48.

would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:49.:03:53.

still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

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of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

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the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:03.:04:04.

for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

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case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

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EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

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the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

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countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:22.:04:26.

not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

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EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

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the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

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have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

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Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

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government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

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deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

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Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

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the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

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back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

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without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

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know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

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one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

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Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

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worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

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But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

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if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

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the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

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is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

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two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

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vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

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if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

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government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

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government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

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it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

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we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

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referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

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government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

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changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

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fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

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deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

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The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

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deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

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a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

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holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

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So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

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That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

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to vote against their government on two key issues.

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Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

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partners within days, but there may be some

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wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

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Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

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The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

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But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

:07:21.:07:29.

the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

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Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

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a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

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But remember those numbers, they're important.

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On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

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been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

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I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

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on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

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And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

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the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

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When the government was criticised for reeling back

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from when and what it would offer a vote on.

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The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

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And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

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of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

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The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

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Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

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the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

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But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

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Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

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On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

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At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

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Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

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If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

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Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

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So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

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What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

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I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

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This building is a really important building.

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It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

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And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

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But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

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vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

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It was already said about David Jones.

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It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

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I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

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through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

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We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:01.:10:05.

One said the situation was sad and depressing.

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The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

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A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

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of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

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But that its position was unlikely to change.

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And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

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That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

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round would look silly if they did, this time.

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It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

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about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

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last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

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There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

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Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

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rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

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The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

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that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

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If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

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Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

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it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

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have already indicated they won't block it again.

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It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

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would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

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Her own deadline was the end of this month.

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But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

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We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

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She's previously voted against the government on the question

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of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

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Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

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what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

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vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

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for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

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Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

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accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

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think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

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that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

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event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

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in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:24.:12:27.

means through your elected representatives, the people of this

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country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

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get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

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Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

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want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

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They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

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he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

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to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

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on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

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have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:12.:13:14.

will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

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what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

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which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

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said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

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don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

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matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

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if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

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there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

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vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

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what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

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Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:13:59.:14:01.

with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

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which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

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speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

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I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

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about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

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amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

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call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

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agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

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Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

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Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

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deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

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complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

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you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:51.:14:55.

process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

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from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

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and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

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the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

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WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

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might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

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government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

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is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

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asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

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ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

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jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

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and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

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not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

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have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

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WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

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what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

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tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

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either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

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I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

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likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

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clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

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has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

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with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

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Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:49.:16:54.

there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:16:55.:16:59.

not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

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like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:07.:17:10.

but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

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uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:17.:17:22.

country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:23.:17:26.

an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:27.:17:29.

frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

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of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

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voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:41.:17:43.

ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

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and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

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the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:17:58.:18:02.

complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

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triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:06.:18:09.

not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

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summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

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give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:18.:18:22.

what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:23.:18:26.

under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:27.:18:31.

Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:32.:18:36.

in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:37.:18:40.

biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:41.:18:44.

in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:45.:18:49.

could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:50.:18:54.

approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:55.:18:56.

Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:18:57.:19:02.

to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:03.:19:06.

much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:07.:19:10.

come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:11.:19:15.

ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:16.:19:22.

different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:23.:19:25.

adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:26.:19:33.

Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:34.:19:39.

reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:40.:19:44.

performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:45.:19:47.

heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:48.:19:54.

am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:19:55.:20:00.

described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:01.:20:04.

around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:05.:20:10.

that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:11.:20:18.

voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:19.:20:24.

billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:25.:20:28.

do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:29.:20:32.

Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:33.:20:40.

commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:41.:20:46.

frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:47.:20:51.

accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

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have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:57.:20:58.

of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:20:59.:21:05.

transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:06.:21:10.

divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:11.:21:15.

the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:16.:21:20.

We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:21.:21:27.

what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:28.:21:32.

about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:33.:21:36.

expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:37.:21:41.

government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:42.:21:46.

parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:47.:21:49.

election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:50.:21:55.

two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:21:56.:21:59.

better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:00.:22:04.

regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:05.:22:07.

would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:08.:22:14.

negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:15.:22:21.

this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:22.:22:26.

police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:27.:22:30.

seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:31.:22:36.

the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:37.:22:39.

aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:40.:22:46.

dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:47.:22:52.

whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:53.:22:57.

wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:22:58.:23:05.

in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:06.:23:12.

done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:13.:23:17.

about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:18.:23:24.

evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:25.:23:28.

making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:29.:23:34.

other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:35.:23:41.

result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:42.:23:45.

fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:46.:23:50.

probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:51.:23:56.

eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:23:57.:24:00.

is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:01.:24:03.

to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:04.:24:09.

of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:10.:24:13.

Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:14.:24:18.

whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:19.:24:22.

general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:23.:24:27.

The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:28.:24:31.

than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:32.:24:39.

unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:40.:24:43.

be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:44.:24:48.

more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:49.:24:54.

billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:55.:24:57.

Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:24:58.:25:02.

money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:03.:25:07.

crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:08.:25:12.

six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:13.:25:18.

the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:19.:25:22.

months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:23.:25:27.

people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:28.:25:32.

it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:33.:25:35.

happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:36.:25:40.

bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:41.:25:45.

cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:46.:25:50.

process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:51.:25:56.

fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:25:57.:26:00.

someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:01.:26:07.

It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:08.:26:13.

with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:14.:26:16.

market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:17.:26:21.

with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:22.:26:25.

a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:26.:26:34.

interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:35.:26:35.

than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:36.:26:40.

budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:41.:26:42.

affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:43.:26:48.

to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:49.:26:50.

in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:51.:26:52.

as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:26:53.:27:01.

more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:02.:27:03.

on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:04.:27:06.

a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:07.:27:09.

from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:10.:27:16.

and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:17.:27:20.

more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:21.:27:24.

with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:25.:27:30.

voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:31.:27:33.

in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:34.:27:34.

Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:35.:27:40.

"no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:41.:27:43.

said the government One of the first things I did

:27:44.:27:45.

as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:46.:27:51.

and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:52.:27:55.

and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:56.:27:58.

at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:27:59.:28:00.

all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:01.:28:03.

be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:04.:28:08.

to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:09.:28:12.

there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:13.:28:14.

a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:15.:28:28.

the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:29.:28:33.

the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:34.:28:37.

commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:38.:28:41.

are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:42.:28:47.

what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:48.:28:52.

quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:53.:28:56.

decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:28:57.:28:59.

fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:00.:29:08.

will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:09.:29:10.

particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:11.:29:17.

general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:18.:29:22.

self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:23.:29:27.

are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:28.:29:31.

McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:32.:29:36.

parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:37.:29:40.

rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:41.:29:44.

people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:45.:29:49.

rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:50.:29:52.

economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:53.:29:57.

is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:29:58.:30:02.

not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:03.:30:07.

base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:08.:30:11.

is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:12.:30:18.

said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:19.:30:23.

politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:24.:30:29.

this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:30.:30:32.

you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:33.:30:37.

Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:38.:30:41.

tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:42.:30:44.

I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:45.:30:54.

people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:55.:30:58.

real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:30:59.:31:00.

they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:01.:31:05.

politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:06.:31:08.

turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:09.:31:10.

women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:11.:31:18.

the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:19.:31:22.

self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:23.:31:27.

tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:28.:31:31.

it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:32.:31:36.

know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:37.:31:42.

flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:43.:31:45.

enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:46.:31:49.

third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:50.:31:54.

like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:55.:31:56.

don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:31:57.:32:01.

And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:02.:32:05.

people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:06.:32:09.

people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:10.:32:13.

self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:14.:32:19.

tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:20.:32:23.

?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:24.:32:27.

If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:28.:32:31.

between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:32.:32:38.

employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:39.:32:42.

as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:43.:32:51.

the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:52.:32:55.

that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:32:56.:32:59.

We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:00.:33:03.

matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:04.:33:07.

self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:08.:33:11.

who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:12.:33:20.

side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:21.:33:23.

technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:24.:33:28.

taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:29.:33:32.

part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:33.:33:34.

models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:35.:33:40.

fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:41.:33:44.

tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:45.:33:46.

Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:47.:33:48.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:49.:33:53.

we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:54.:33:58.

of Donald Trump's allegation I'm Nina Warhurst, coming up

:33:59.:34:10.

in the North West... Has the Chancellor got

:34:11.:34:15.

businesses over a barrel? That's the problem I've got

:34:16.:34:17.

with this government at the minute - they used to be the government

:34:18.:34:22.

of business, now they're Well, stirring things up

:34:23.:34:25.

here in the studio are two Jeff Smith is the Labour MP

:34:26.:34:31.

for Manchester Withington. David Mowat the Conservative

:34:32.:34:36.

for Warrington South and also Minister responsible

:34:37.:34:38.

for Community, Health and Care. It's budget week!

:34:39.:34:40.

How was it for you, David? Well, I think it was

:34:41.:34:44.

a good budget on the whole. I suppose that the things that sort

:34:45.:34:49.

of hit me most were the growth forecasts have increased.

:34:50.:34:52.

That means more jobs. And, as you say, I'm

:34:53.:34:54.

the Minister for social care, so I was very pleased

:34:55.:34:57.

that the Chancellor came up with No doubt a different

:34:58.:34:59.

take for you, Jeff? Well, I thought it was

:35:00.:35:03.

very disappointing? Well, I thought it was

:35:04.:35:05.

very disappointing. Not just because of the broken

:35:06.:35:06.

promises on national insurance, but I don't think it has

:35:07.:35:09.

the long-term answers. I think the long-term outlook

:35:10.:35:11.

is not as optimistic OK, and you're not alone in that

:35:12.:35:13.

Jeff, because even some of Philip Hammond's Conservative

:35:14.:35:17.

colleagues said that tax rises for the self-employed would hardly

:35:18.:35:19.

have the white van man popping So was there anything

:35:20.:35:24.

at all to toast? Well, that was more money

:35:25.:35:27.

for social care, as David said, a bit of help for business rate

:35:28.:35:30.

payers, and a small boost for pubs. Guess where Stuart Pollitt chose

:35:31.:35:33.

to go to see if it's cheers Market day and

:35:34.:35:37.

Budget day in Lancaster. All eyes on the man

:35:38.:35:45.

controlling the money. As pints were pulled

:35:46.:35:49.

in the Sun Hotel, the boss was as interested in business rates

:35:50.:35:52.

as he was in beer prices. The rates on this place

:35:53.:35:56.

have gone up ?70,000. Have you seen anything

:35:57.:36:00.

there that helps you? No, it was a very

:36:01.:36:01.

disappointing budget for me. There were three options

:36:02.:36:06.

that the Chancellor mentioned. So the last one is discretionary,

:36:07.:36:12.

so Lord knows what that means! In the same bar, two councillors -

:36:13.:36:18.

one Tory, one Labour - The report that we had done last

:36:19.:36:21.

year by PricewaterhouseCoopers shows we've got a ?90 billion spending gap

:36:22.:36:28.

for adult social care and, on the figures announced today,

:36:29.:36:31.

we're looking at perhaps ?30 million may come to Lancashire,

:36:32.:36:39.

although we need to see I think there was some really

:36:40.:36:41.

important things for Lancashire, particularly the ?90 million

:36:42.:36:44.

for highways in It's money coming up from London

:36:45.:36:46.

and, with the announcement on social care, I think that's a huge step

:36:47.:36:50.

in the right direction. This brewery runs the Sun

:36:51.:36:53.

and four other pubs. The rates on one of them

:36:54.:36:56.

has gone up nearly 500%. They feel like a business

:36:57.:36:59.

under attack. We've got the pension rights coming

:37:00.:37:04.

soon, national minimum wage. It's hitting the traders,

:37:05.:37:07.

the high street traders, the most - the retail and leisure sector -

:37:08.:37:10.

the actual guys that go out there and then

:37:11.:37:12.

there's their companies and actually And that's the problem I've got

:37:13.:37:17.

with this government at the minute. They used to be the government

:37:18.:37:23.

of business, now they're Well, they won't be raising a glass

:37:24.:37:25.

here at the brewery to this budget, but what's the view across the city

:37:26.:37:30.

for those who want to make a living, These students in the catering

:37:31.:37:33.

college have big ambitions. Eventually, like, I want to move to

:37:34.:37:37.

London and have my own restaurant. I really want to go ahead

:37:38.:37:40.

and work in a kitchen, I really want to go

:37:41.:37:44.

ahead and push myself. The Chancellor announced new money

:37:45.:37:47.

for technical education like this, creating what some have dubbed

:37:48.:37:49.

T-Levels for 16 to 18-year-olds. That will materialise

:37:50.:37:57.

in '19, maybe 2020, so, I mean, that would be

:37:58.:37:59.

a really valuable investment. The technical qualifications

:38:00.:38:02.

are exactly what the employment But what the college needs,

:38:03.:38:04.

like a lot of educational establishments, is more cash

:38:05.:38:10.

to help you deliver. -- establishments, is more

:38:11.:38:16.

cash to help it deliver. Within the schools, you'll find that

:38:17.:38:18.

sixth form students are funded far better than a student that

:38:19.:38:21.

comes to college. The Chancellor didn't have much

:38:22.:38:23.

of that to dish out, but was his approach

:38:24.:38:25.

the right recipe for this region? David, the brewery director

:38:26.:38:28.

there summed up the attitude You;ve stopped being the government

:38:29.:38:32.

of business, now you're I mean, he did say that

:38:33.:38:38.

and he was concerned about business rates,

:38:39.:38:41.

and I understand that, but I would say this that in general

:38:42.:38:43.

the re-evaluation that's taken place, which is a net neutral thing

:38:44.:38:46.

across the whole country, has benefited the North

:38:47.:38:49.

and the North West Clearly, the guy that you spoke to,

:38:50.:38:51.

in terms of the package that you did, wasn't in that place,

:38:52.:38:55.

but in general... But there were 6000 start-ups

:38:56.:38:59.

in Warrington last year. They will struggle, won't they,

:39:00.:39:03.

with these increases in national insurance contribution

:39:04.:39:05.

and also with dividends? Well, in terms of, first of all,

:39:06.:39:08.

on the business rates point, Warrington is a net winner

:39:09.:39:12.

on the changes to business rates that the government has brought in,

:39:13.:39:14.

and I'm pleased about that. The point you just raised

:39:15.:39:17.

on national insurance, um, yes, it does affect people that

:39:18.:39:20.

are self-employed and it puts them on a similar tax bases to those

:39:21.:39:23.

that are not self-employed and it's actually a progressive change

:39:24.:39:27.

and it's a change that I think probably had to be made.

:39:28.:39:30.

Does it not jar, though...? In general, those that are poorly

:39:31.:39:33.

paid, you know, under ?20,000, But does it not jar

:39:34.:39:36.

with the Conservative spirit of encouraging the entrepreneurial

:39:37.:39:43.

spirit, supporting small businesses? Giving them the financial

:39:44.:39:45.

freedom to thrive? Look, we are the party of low tax,

:39:46.:39:51.

so we would prefer lower taxes for everybody,

:39:52.:39:54.

but we're also the party of fair tax, and it just isn't fair

:39:55.:39:56.

if somebody that is employed, and is earning ?30,000 a year,

:39:57.:39:59.

is paying a significantly different amount of tax than somebody

:40:00.:40:02.

that is self-employed and earning ?30,000 a year, possibly working

:40:03.:40:04.

side-by-side with them. That is what the Chancellor

:40:05.:40:06.

has been fixing. Did we need to level

:40:07.:40:10.

the playing field? Well, I don't think it has

:40:11.:40:13.

levelled the playing field, I think the problem is that we're

:40:14.:40:15.

taking money from the lower and middle income earners

:40:16.:40:18.

at the same time as we are giving ?3.8 billion in cuts

:40:19.:40:23.

to corporation tax. And I think the Labour Party

:40:24.:40:25.

would make different choices. I mean, the national

:40:26.:40:27.

insurance change hits those that are paid the most.

:40:28.:40:29.

It's a very progressive thing. And the Resolution Foundation

:40:30.:40:32.

and others have accepted that. But what about the dividends,

:40:33.:40:34.

tax-free dividends coming down from ?5,000 to ?2000?

:40:35.:40:36.

Yes. That's going to affect medium

:40:37.:40:37.

business owners, isn't it? Well, it's also a very

:40:38.:40:39.

progressive thing. I mean, the people that are affected

:40:40.:40:41.

mostly by that, the most by that, are those with share portfolios

:40:42.:40:45.

outside of ISAs worth Now, if those are the people

:40:46.:40:46.

that the Labour Party think ought to be the government's priority,

:40:47.:40:51.

the Labour Party has changed even But why has the Federation

:40:52.:40:54.

of Small Businesses said that this will not help Warrington's upwards

:40:55.:40:58.

turn when it comes to business? Well, I mean, because it is a tax

:40:59.:41:01.

increase, and there are people, like I say, who are earning ?30,000

:41:02.:41:04.

at the moment, who are paying significantly lower amounts of tax,

:41:05.:41:07.

because they're self-employed, than they would've been

:41:08.:41:09.

had they been employed. But it undermines the government's

:41:10.:41:11.

own mission for the UK to be Well, look, if I was self-employed,

:41:12.:41:15.

and I had a historic tax anomaly, which is what it is,

:41:16.:41:22.

that was beneficial to me, and the government took it away

:41:23.:41:27.

from me, albeit in a progressive way, yes, I would be saying those

:41:28.:41:30.

sorts of things too. If this was a Labour policy,

:41:31.:41:32.

you'd be right behind it. It's redistribution, isn't it?

:41:33.:41:37.

I don't think it is redistribution. If you take it in conjunction

:41:38.:41:39.

with the class two abolition, then that's where you could see

:41:40.:41:45.

it is as a redistribution, but the class twos have

:41:46.:41:47.

already been introduced, so these changes to class four

:41:48.:41:53.

are not really redistributed. And just going back to your business

:41:54.:41:55.

rate question, I met with the Chorlton traders last week

:41:56.:41:58.

in my constituency, You know, I welcome the money

:41:59.:42:00.

that's going into the pubs for their business rate,

:42:01.:42:04.

but it's not enough to allay the worries of the businesses

:42:05.:42:07.

in South Manchester. They've said

:42:08.:42:08.

it's good for businesses. I mean, the facts are,

:42:09.:42:11.

on the business rates, it's overwhelmingly neutral and

:42:12.:42:13.

it's overall of benefit to the North versus the South, and the reason

:42:14.:42:16.

for that is because the change that's been made in the revaluation

:42:17.:42:19.

follows what the properties are worth and, on the whole,

:42:20.:42:22.

places like London have seen values And like I say, my constituency

:42:23.:42:25.

will benefit from it. OK, I'm sure we'll be

:42:26.:42:30.

back to that topic. Now, in the run up to the Budget,

:42:31.:42:32.

there was one issue dominated, though -

:42:33.:42:38.

it was that of social care. Here's how three of our MPs reacted

:42:39.:42:41.

to the ?2 billion over three years that Philip Hammond has found

:42:42.:42:44.

for local councils. The NHS and social care needs

:42:45.:42:46.

between 8.5 and 15 billion, just to get by, quite frankly,

:42:47.:42:49.

so there will be a lot of people in my constituency that'll be

:42:50.:42:52.

worried about their future, and whether they're going to get

:42:53.:42:54.

the care they need! The social care budget breaks down

:42:55.:42:57.

to about ?40 per head. Yeah, but we've already got

:42:58.:43:00.

the Better Care Fund, This is additional funding

:43:01.:43:04.

to recognise that more needs to be done to help with social care,

:43:05.:43:10.

and it's not just about money. I think we've talked in the past

:43:11.:43:13.

about how we need to be more innovative about joining up

:43:14.:43:16.

social care and the NHS together. The Chancellor is -

:43:17.:43:19.

at the same time, it's worth bearing in mind -

:43:20.:43:21.

giving away something like ?6 billion in tax cuts

:43:22.:43:24.

through capital gains, through, for example,

:43:25.:43:28.

inheritance tax cuts for people That's giveaways

:43:29.:43:30.

he didn't need to give. He could've been spending

:43:31.:43:34.

that money on social care. David, you are the minister

:43:35.:43:36.

responsible for Community, Did you really think,

:43:37.:43:39.

did the Chancellor really think that 2 billion over three years

:43:40.:43:42.

would even touch the sides? 2 billion is the gap

:43:43.:43:45.

that we've been asked for by the LGA and others,

:43:46.:43:49.

in terms of meeting I was in Liverpool at

:43:50.:43:51.

a conference on Thursday. I mean, that city is getting

:43:52.:44:01.

an increase just by the announcement at the budget

:44:02.:44:04.

of almost 10%, in terms of an uplift,

:44:05.:44:06.

to its social care budgets. But because of the redistribution

:44:07.:44:08.

of their budget, they're having to do things like get rid

:44:09.:44:10.

of foster carers? Well, we're talking

:44:11.:44:13.

about the budget. ?2 billion is a great deal of money

:44:14.:44:14.

and it's going to make a great deal of difference

:44:15.:44:18.

and, as a matter of fact, that money also, in terms

:44:19.:44:20.

of where the allocation formula works, is a particular

:44:21.:44:22.

benefit to the North West, because the precept

:44:23.:44:25.

is of less benefit here. But let's talk about some

:44:26.:44:26.

of the cuts in social care We've been told they'll have

:44:27.:44:29.

to reduce respite care, which will put

:44:30.:44:33.

a greater burden on carers. They'll have to increase charges

:44:34.:44:38.

for hospital transport, reduce money for end-of-life care,

:44:39.:44:42.

disabilities - these are important elements that affect people's lives,

:44:43.:44:44.

their health and happiness. And all those points are right,

:44:45.:44:46.

but Warrington, two days ago, were informed that they're getting

:44:47.:44:52.

?4 million extra for social care, that is a significant

:44:53.:44:55.

amount of money for any council I was responsible for

:44:56.:44:58.

lobbying, amongst others, But Pat Wright, the councillor

:44:59.:45:01.

in charge of social care in Warrington, says,

:45:02.:45:09.

"No, we are at rock bottom, "we don't have enough money to do

:45:10.:45:14.

what we want to do in order I mean, just on the facts,

:45:15.:45:18.

42% of all councils, 42% of all councils in the country,

:45:19.:45:21.

increased their social care budget OK, Jeff, the truth is, despite this

:45:22.:45:24.

being desperately unpopular, the Tories are still well ahead

:45:25.:45:28.

in the polls. Yeah, but just going back

:45:29.:45:30.

to the social care, the King's Fund have said that we need ?2 billion

:45:31.:45:35.

straightaway just to sustain things. Per year.

:45:36.:45:38.

Per year. So I think probably David

:45:39.:45:39.

is secretly disappointed this But we've taken 4.6 billion out

:45:40.:45:41.

of social care since 2010, During the course of this

:45:42.:45:47.

Parliament, social care In Manchester, we've had to take

:45:48.:45:50.

?17 million out of social care. We've had to change

:45:51.:45:54.

the criteria in Manchester. So people who were getting help

:45:55.:45:56.

and though not getting help, -- So people who were getting help

:45:57.:46:01.

are now not getting help, because of the actions

:46:02.:46:04.

of this government. I mean, just on the point of fact,

:46:05.:46:05.

Manchester has got... It is illegal for Manchester

:46:06.:46:08.

to change the criteria. The criteria was set out

:46:09.:46:10.

in the Care Act of 2014, which set out what the statutory

:46:11.:46:13.

criteria are for social care, and Manchester, like every other

:46:14.:46:15.

local authority in the country, has got a statutory duty

:46:16.:46:18.

to provide care packages Yeah, and we used to provide extra

:46:19.:46:20.

to the statutory duty and now, a couple of years ago,

:46:21.:46:24.

we had to reduce that David, we've got the King's Fund,

:46:25.:46:27.

we've got the LGA, the Conservative local councils,

:46:28.:46:30.

the opposition, all saying... Lots of Conservative MPs

:46:31.:46:32.

saying this is a shambles, I don't think they are saying

:46:33.:46:35.

that post the announcement They've all said that

:46:36.:46:38.

post announcement. Can you name which Conservative

:46:39.:46:41.

MPs have said that since the announcement?

:46:42.:46:43.

I think you'll struggle. We could probably find

:46:44.:46:45.

lots of other MPs... Well, I'm sure Jeff will say it!

:46:46.:46:47.

I will, I will! You said I was secretly

:46:48.:46:52.

That was an extremely good settlement, in the context

:46:53.:46:55.

of the overall public finances, which we are still trying

:46:56.:46:58.

to pay off the deficit, and that is an overriding point

:46:59.:47:00.

that is still there, that we inherited in 2010.

:47:01.:47:04.

But this settlement exceeded expectations and, frankly,

:47:05.:47:09.

I spoke to a number of stakeholders in charities and the care home

:47:10.:47:12.

sector after the announcement that was made, and they were

:47:13.:47:14.

pleased by this. Jeff...

:47:15.:47:15.

And I... Sorry, yeah.

:47:16.:47:17.

Austerity lives on - that was the message

:47:18.:47:20.

He stood up and said this will go on, it has to go on,

:47:21.:47:24.

44% of people think that the current way austerity is being dealt with

:47:25.:47:33.

is unfair, but only 8% would prefer Jeremy Corbyn

:47:34.:47:35.

And we clearly need to get our message across.

:47:36.:47:39.

I think what is clear... What is the message?

:47:40.:47:41.

Well, what is clear is that austerity is not working, is it?

:47:42.:47:44.

And the government keep having to revise their figures.

:47:45.:47:46.

They said they'd get rid of the deficit by 2015.

:47:47.:47:48.

It now looks like it will go to at least 2022.

:47:49.:47:51.

So the government's plan is not working.

:47:52.:47:52.

But hang on, hang on, people don't believe there's

:47:53.:47:55.

a credible opposition to the government, do they?

:47:56.:47:57.

Well, so we need to communicate better, we need to make sure

:47:58.:48:00.

that our policies will... Do you need a different leader?

:48:01.:48:02.

Look, I don't think the public would welcome a leadership contest now,

:48:03.:48:05.

when we've got Brexit happening, we've got lots of major problems.

:48:06.:48:08.

I think for the Labour Party to be in the middle of a leadership

:48:09.:48:11.

I think people would see that as a dereliction of duty

:48:12.:48:15.

to the job we've got to do, which is to take the opposition...

:48:16.:48:18.

And it doesn't worry you that only 8% of the public think that

:48:19.:48:21.

McDonnell would've done a better job on the budget?

:48:22.:48:23.

And our trailing in the polls worries me.

:48:24.:48:29.

You know, we shouldn't hide from this, this is a problem for us,

:48:30.:48:32.

so we just need to redouble our work and make sure that we take

:48:33.:48:35.

I mean, Labour's position is that we need to borrow another

:48:36.:48:39.

?500 million and presumably borrow it, if it's not from

:48:40.:48:41.

the magic money tree. Well...

:48:42.:48:43.

And, you know, Jeff said that we have revised the figures

:48:44.:48:45.

this week and that is true, the Chancellor has revised

:48:46.:48:48.

the borrowing figures this week, because the economy is growing

:48:49.:48:50.

faster than expected, borrowing is coming down

:48:51.:48:52.

during the rest of this Parliament more quickly than expected, that is

:48:53.:48:54.

true, and I'm pleased about it. Jeff?

:48:55.:48:56.

Well, we've never said we want to borrow ?500 million.

:48:57.:48:59.

What we have said is that interest rates are at a record low,

:49:00.:49:02.

now is the time to borrow to invest for the long term,

:49:03.:49:05.

to invest in the infrastructure and the productivity that

:49:06.:49:07.

would make our economy recover, because, at the moment, it's not.

:49:08.:49:09.

So, there is some help for social care, but that leaves the small

:49:10.:49:14.

matter of how local councils protect the rest of their services.

:49:15.:49:17.

Kevin Fitzpatrick has an update on one council's attempts to keep

:49:18.:49:19.

them afloat by getting local people to play their part.

:49:20.:49:23.

Swimming pools and libraries, Sure Start centres and museums -

:49:24.:49:31.

Swimming pools and libraries, children's centres and museums -

:49:32.:49:33.

many have closed their doors to the public as austerity

:49:34.:49:36.

But in Wigan, everything has remained open.

:49:37.:49:38.

Facilities, like this one in Tyldsley, are now

:49:39.:49:40.

It's part of a policy shift, which has seen the council reduce

:49:41.:49:44.

costs by keeping hold of buildings, but transfering responsibility

:49:45.:49:47.

to the community. It's become known as the Wigan Deal.

:49:48.:49:50.

We thought that there was enough interest from groups who are already

:49:51.:49:54.

using these buildings to take some of the responsibilities

:49:55.:49:57.

on and we put money in there, which was like an investor save,

:49:58.:50:02.

in terms of helping people to start up, and it's worked well

:50:03.:50:05.

in terms of the usage now of these facilities.

:50:06.:50:07.

Like many councils in the North West, Wigan will have lost

:50:08.:50:10.

around 40% of its 2010 budget by 2020.

:50:11.:50:15.

Others do now have some facilities run by volunteers,

:50:16.:50:18.

but Wigan has handed over as many as possible.

:50:19.:50:21.

26 community buidlings and 18 playing field

:50:22.:50:24.

areas are now currently, or soon to be,

:50:25.:50:26.

Under its new volunteer management team, the Sunshine House community

:50:27.:50:33.

centre in Scholes appears to have thrived.

:50:34.:50:38.

I think that they are doing a wonderful job.

:50:39.:50:40.

They are giving back to the community what

:50:41.:50:42.

You get the right person in, you know, Barbara

:50:43.:50:48.

is doing a marvellous job at handling her staff.

:50:49.:50:50.

I'm told I'm always talking about it.

:50:51.:50:52.

I said, "Well, you talk about things you enjoy."

:50:53.:50:54.

Ten times as many people now come through their doors every week

:50:55.:50:59.

and they're expanding into an empty building next door.

:51:00.:51:03.

We are a successful business, you know, and I think the fact

:51:04.:51:07.

that the council give us the freedom and the opportunity to do

:51:08.:51:10.

Last year, Lancashire County Council closed 26

:51:11.:51:14.

In Cheshire East, four Sure Start centres have gone.

:51:15.:51:20.

While currently, in Bury, they're considering shutting up

:51:21.:51:23.

We would make a genuine effort to find out what people

:51:24.:51:30.

want the council to run, what they want them to fund.

:51:31.:51:33.

This is something that people want the council to fund,

:51:34.:51:37.

which is why we would fight to keep this library and others.

:51:38.:51:40.

With Manchester among other councils now following in Wigan's footsteps,

:51:41.:51:45.

it could be that, in future, we'll see more communities running

:51:46.:51:47.

facilities themselves, if they want to keep them.

:51:48.:51:51.

Jeff, that put a smile on all of our faces.

:51:52.:51:54.

What's wrong with local communities, with the community spirit being used

:51:55.:51:57.

Well, nothing wrong with community spirit, that's great,

:51:58.:52:02.

and my local swimming baths has been taken over by a community.

:52:03.:52:05.

Yeah. They do a fantastic job.

:52:06.:52:06.

But the trouble is, it's not necessarily

:52:07.:52:09.

a sustainable solution long-term, is it?

:52:10.:52:11.

So they are working hard to keep the bus going,

:52:12.:52:15.

-- So they are working hard to keep the baths going,

:52:16.:52:18.

but they are always scrambling around.

:52:19.:52:20.

And it's happened with libraries and other committee

:52:21.:52:21.

Groups take them over, have to work really hard,

:52:22.:52:25.

they're always scrambling around for that future long-term funding,

:52:26.:52:27.

and if they have a big problem, capital problem, that isn't

:52:28.:52:30.

and if they have a big problem, a capital problem, there isn't

:52:31.:52:35.

Say the water pump broke in our local baths,

:52:36.:52:39.

they'd have a big problem. That's it.

:52:40.:52:41.

It's not even the big jobs. It's the little jobs.

:52:42.:52:43.

The tiles falling off in the swimming pool.

:52:44.:52:45.

What happens then, David? Well...

:52:46.:52:46.

You can't rely on people's good nature for ever.

:52:47.:52:49.

I mean, it was a nice package. And no, you can't.

:52:50.:52:51.

I mean, I think it's good the community steps forward

:52:52.:52:54.

sometimes, and we've seen that with our libraries in Warrington.

:52:55.:52:56.

Public services also do need to be properly funded and we started this

:52:57.:52:59.

whole programme by people complaining about business rates

:53:00.:53:01.

when, unfortunately, you know, we do have to pay rates and taxes

:53:02.:53:04.

which, in the end, fund our public services and there's no

:53:05.:53:06.

getting away from that, and there isn't a magic money

:53:07.:53:09.

tree, and we just need to get the right balance.

:53:10.:53:11.

And that's what the government are doing.

:53:12.:53:13.

Oh, that there were a magic money tree!

:53:14.:53:15.

With tributes to a landmark of literature and the rest

:53:16.:53:17.

of this week's news, now here's Carol Lowe

:53:18.:53:19.

The Vice Chair of the Wallasey Labour Party could face

:53:20.:53:23.

Paul Davies has been referred to the party's disciplinary body

:53:24.:53:26.

Labour and the Lib Dems in Pendle were accused of turning a blind eye

:53:27.:53:33.

to racism amid claims of a deal with the British National Party's

:53:34.:53:36.

Doing deals with the British National Party is utterly

:53:37.:53:42.

repugnant and unacceptable, whether at local council

:53:43.:53:46.

18 months after water contamination affected hundreds of thousands

:53:47.:53:52.

of people in Lancashire, the organisation investigating says

:53:53.:53:56.

it's still not ready to announce its findings.

:53:57.:54:00.

500 animal deaths in less than four years, and now no license.

:54:01.:54:05.

Councillors in Barrow ruled that South Lakes Safari Zoo

:54:06.:54:08.

And remembering a giant of political literature.

:54:09.:54:14.

It's 80 years since George Orwell exposed the grimness of life

:54:15.:54:17.

for millions in The Road to Wigan Pier.

:54:18.:54:24.

Before we go, there were concerns this week for car workers

:54:25.:54:27.

from General Motors. PSA Group bought Vauxhall

:54:28.:54:35.

The plant currently employs 2,000 people, making the Astra,

:54:36.:54:37.

It's thought the group could have too many plants across Europe,

:54:38.:54:41.

and Brexit might impact which of them ends up closing.

:54:42.:54:44.

The problem really is that Ellesmere Port,

:54:45.:54:47.

like the British industry, is heavily dependent on imported

:54:48.:54:51.

It would be easier, after Brexit, to do that on the European mainland.

:54:52.:55:00.

We'll be triggering Article 50 before we know it.

:55:01.:55:05.

David, this is the beginning, isn't it, that we need to really about?

:55:06.:55:10.

Well, the takeover in Ellesmere Port isn't to do with Brexit.

:55:11.:55:13.

I mean, I voted to Remain, but the country didn't.

:55:14.:55:15.

No, but 57% of our imports are from the EU.

:55:16.:55:18.

And what I'm about to say, though, is that one of the things that

:55:19.:55:22.

will benefit the competitiveness in Ellesmere Port is that

:55:23.:55:24.

our exchange rate has gone down post-Brexit,

:55:25.:55:29.

it's actually gone down by more than the tariffs would be,

:55:30.:55:31.

and that would make them more competitive vis-a-vis some

:55:32.:55:34.

of the plants in Europe that they will have to compete

:55:35.:55:36.

But it's extremely important, and Greg Clark knows there's,

:55:37.:55:40.

it's extremely important that we keep Ellesmere.

:55:41.:55:42.

But there will be tariffs when it comes to import and export?

:55:43.:55:45.

Yes, but actually, the tariffs will be lower than the exchange rate

:55:46.:55:48.

However, I don't want to minimise it.

:55:49.:55:50.

You know, it's vital that companies like Nissan in Sunderland,

:55:51.:55:53.

Vauxhall in Ellesmere Port, Jaguar in Liverpool,

:55:54.:55:56.

it's vital that all of these companies stay with us and grow

:55:57.:56:00.

and, actually, up till now, that is what's happening.

:56:01.:56:03.

Our economy is growing faster than anybody else

:56:04.:56:07.

in Europe at the moment and growing faster post-Brexit.

:56:08.:56:09.

Jeff, how do we make sure these countries are protected

:56:10.:56:15.

-- Jeff, how do we make sure these companies are protected

:56:16.:56:17.

in these uncertain times? Well, it's going to be difficult.

:56:18.:56:22.

In terms of the Astra, it imports more parts, but we need an

:56:23.:56:29.

intervention and this government helping out the car industry and

:56:30.:56:33.

whether that is help with business rates, investment in training and

:56:34.:56:37.

skills to improve productivity, that is how we sustain the future for the

:56:38.:56:42.

and Greg Clark has spoken to the and Greg Clark has spoken to the

:56:43.:56:46.

management of Ellesmere Port, and not much difference tween Jeff and

:56:47.:56:55.

me on that. Lovely and we end on that point of agreement.

:56:56.:56:57.

Phil McCann has the onerous task of heading to Cannes for us next

:56:58.:57:01.

week, as local council leaders look for funding in the South of France.

:57:02.:57:04.

Now the government plans for new grammar schools.

:57:05.:57:19.

The Education Secretary Justine Greening was

:57:20.:57:21.

speaking to a conference of headteachers on Friday.

:57:22.:57:23.

They're normally a pretty polite bunch, but they didn't

:57:24.:57:25.

Broadcasters weren't allowed into the speech,

:57:26.:57:32.

but this was captured on a camera phone.

:57:33.:57:36.

And we have to recognise actually for grammars, in terms of

:57:37.:57:39.

disadvantaged children, that they have, they really

:57:40.:57:43.

do help them close the attainment gap.

:57:44.:57:46.

And at the same time we should recognise that

:57:47.:57:48.

..That parents also want choice for their children and that

:57:49.:57:55.

those schools are often very oversubscribed.

:57:56.:58:02.

I suppose it is a rite of passage for and education secretaries to

:58:03.:58:11.

have this at a head teachers conference book the head are usually

:58:12.:58:16.

more polite. Isn't part of the problem, whether one is for or

:58:17.:58:19.

against the expansion of grammar schools, the government plans are

:58:20.:58:26.

complicated, you cannot sum them up in a sentence. The proof of that is

:58:27.:58:30.

they can still get away with denying they are expanding grammar schools.

:58:31.:58:34.

They will find an alternative formulation because it is not as

:58:35.:58:37.

simple as a brute creation of what we used to know is grammar schools

:58:38.:58:41.

with the absolute cut-off of the 11 plus. I am surprised how easy they

:58:42.:58:48.

found it politically. We saw the clip of Justine Greening being

:58:49.:58:52.

jeered a little bit but in the grand scheme, compared to another

:58:53.:58:56.

government trying this idea a decade ago they have got away with it

:58:57.:59:00.

easily and I think what is happening is a perverse consequence of Brexit

:59:01.:59:04.

and the media attention on Brexit, the government of the day can just

:59:05.:59:09.

about get away with slightly more contentious domestic policies on the

:59:10.:59:13.

correct assumption we will be too busy investing our attention in

:59:14.:59:19.

Article 50 and two years of negotiations, WTO terms at

:59:20.:59:22.

everything we have been discussing. I wonder if after grammar schools

:59:23.:59:27.

there will be examples of contentious domestic policies

:59:28.:59:30.

Theresa May can slide in stock because Brexit sucks the life out,

:59:31.:59:39.

takes the attention away. You are a supporter. Broadly. Are you happy

:59:40.:59:44.

with the government approach? They need to have more gumption and stop

:59:45.:59:49.

being apologetic. It is a bazaar area of public policy where we judge

:59:50.:59:53.

the policy on grammar schools based on what it does for children whose

:59:54.:59:58.

parents are unemployed, living on sink estates in Liverpool. It is

:59:59.:00:03.

absurd, we don't judge any other policy like that. It is simple, not

:00:04.:00:07.

contentious, people who are not sure, ask them if they would apply

:00:08.:00:12.

to send their child there, six out of ten said they would. Parents want

:00:13.:00:18.

good schools for their children, we should have appropriate education

:00:19.:00:20.

and they should be straightforward, this is about the future of the

:00:21.:00:24.

economy and we need bright children to get education at the highest

:00:25.:00:28.

level, education for academically bright children. It is supposed to

:00:29.:00:35.

be a signature policy of the Theresa May administration that marks a

:00:36.:00:37.

government different from David Cameron's government who did not go

:00:38.:00:42.

down this road. The signature is pretty blurred, it is hard to read.

:00:43.:00:46.

It is. She is trying to address concerns about those who fail to get

:00:47.:00:54.

into these selective schools and tried to targeted in poorer areas

:00:55.:00:57.

and the rest of it. She will probably come across so many

:00:58.:01:01.

obstacles. It is not clear what form it will take in the end. It is

:01:02.:01:05.

really an example of a signature policy not fully thought through. I

:01:06.:01:08.

think it was one of her first announcements. It was. It surprised

:01:09.:01:12.

everybody. Surprised at the speed and pace at which they were planning

:01:13.:01:18.

to go. Ever since, there have been qualifications and hesitations en

:01:19.:01:22.

route with good cause, in my view. I disagree with Juliet that this is...

:01:23.:01:26.

We all want good schools but if you don't get in there and you end up in

:01:27.:01:29.

a less good school. They already do that. We have selection based on the

:01:30.:01:33.

income of parents getting into a good catchment area, based on the

:01:34.:01:37.

faith of the parents. That becomes very attainable! I might been too

:01:38.:01:44.

shot run christenings for these. -- I have been.

:01:45.:01:46.

Now, you may remember this time last week we were talking

:01:47.:01:49.

about the extraordinary claims by US President Donald Trump,

:01:50.:01:51.

on Twitter of course, that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:52.:01:53.

And there was me thinking that wiretaps went out

:01:54.:01:56.

Is it legal for a sitting President to do so, he asked,

:01:57.:02:01.

concluding it was a "new low", and later comparing it to Watergate.

:02:02.:02:10.

Since then, the White House has been pressed to provide evidence for this

:02:11.:02:14.

It hasn't, but it seems it may have initially come from a report on a US

:02:15.:02:20.

website by the former Conservative MP Louise Mensch.

:02:21.:02:22.

She wrote that the FBI had been granted a warrant to intercept

:02:23.:02:25.

communications between Trump's campaign and Russia.

:02:26.:02:33.

Well, Louise Mensch joins us now from New York.

:02:34.:02:41.

Louise, you claimed in early November that the FBI had secured a

:02:42.:02:48.

court warrants to monitor communications between trump Tower

:02:49.:02:52.

in New York at two Russian banks. It's now four months later. Isn't it

:02:53.:02:56.

the case that nobody has proved the existence of this warrant?

:02:57.:03:01.

First of all, forgive me Andrew, one takes 1's life in one's hand when it

:03:02.:03:07.

is you but I have to correct your characterisation of my reporting. It

:03:08.:03:11.

is very important. I did not report that the FBI had a warrant to

:03:12.:03:15.

intercept anything or that Trump tower was any part of it. What I

:03:16.:03:20.

reported was that the FBI obtained a warrant is targeted on all

:03:21.:03:24.

communications between two Russian banks and were, therefore, allowed

:03:25.:03:28.

to examine US persons in the context of their investigation. What the

:03:29.:03:34.

Americans call legally incidental collection. I certainly didn't

:03:35.:03:40.

report that the warrant was able to intercept or that it had location

:03:41.:03:44.

basis, for example Trump tower. I just didn't report that. The reason

:03:45.:03:49.

that matters so much is that I now believe based on the President's

:03:50.:03:54.

reaction, there may well be a wiretap act Trump Tower. If so,

:03:55.:03:58.

Donald Trump has just tweeted out evidence in an ongoing criminal case

:03:59.:04:01.

that neither I nor anybody else reported. He is right about

:04:02.:04:05.

Watergate because he will have committed obstruction of justice

:04:06.:04:09.

directly from his Twitter account. Let me come back as thank you for

:04:10.:04:13.

clarifying. Let me come back to the question. -- and thank you. We have

:04:14.:04:20.

not yet got proof that this warrant exists, do we? No and we are most

:04:21.:04:25.

unlikely to get it because it would be a heinous crime for Donald Trump

:04:26.:04:29.

to reveal its existence. In America they call it a Glomar response. I

:04:30.:04:33.

can neither confirm nor deny. That is what all American officials will

:04:34.:04:37.

have to say legally. If you are looking for proof, you won't get it

:04:38.:04:41.

until and unless a court cases brought. But that doesn't mean it

:04:42.:04:46.

doesn't exist. The BBC validated this two months after me in their

:04:47.:04:50.

reporting by the journalist Paul Wood. The Guardian, they also

:04:51.:04:54.

separately from their own sources validated the existence of the

:04:55.:04:58.

warrant. If you are in America, you would know that CNN and others are

:04:59.:05:01.

reporting that the investigation in ongoing. Let me come onto the wider

:05:02.:05:05.

point. You believe the Trump campaign including the president

:05:06.:05:10.

were complicit with the Russians during the 2016 election campaign to

:05:11.:05:13.

such an extent that Mr Trump should be impeached. What evidence did you

:05:14.:05:15.

have? That is an enormous amount of

:05:16.:05:25.

evidence. You could start with him saying, hey, Russia, if you are

:05:26.:05:28.

listening, please release all the Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's

:05:29.:05:33.

not evidence. I think it rather is, actually. Especially if you look at

:05:34.:05:36.

some of the evidence that exists on Twitter and elsewhere of people

:05:37.:05:40.

talking directly to his social media manager, Dan should be no and

:05:41.:05:44.

telling him to do that before it happened. There is a bit out there.

:05:45.:05:49.

The BBC itself reported that in April of last year, a six agency

:05:50.:05:54.

task force, not just the FBI, but the Treasury Department, was looking

:05:55.:05:57.

at this. I believe there is an enormous amount of evidence. And

:05:58.:06:01.

then there is the steel dossier which was included in an official

:06:02.:06:03.

report of the US intelligence committee. You've also ... Just to

:06:04.:06:12.

be clear, we don't have hard evidence yet whether this warrant

:06:13.:06:16.

exists. It may or may not. There is doubt about... There are claims

:06:17.:06:20.

about whether there is evidence about Mr Trump and the Russians.

:06:21.:06:22.

That is another matter. You claimed that President Putin had Andrew

:06:23.:06:29.

Breitbart murdered to pave the way for Steve Bannon to play a key role

:06:30.:06:35.

in the Trump administration. I haven't. You said that Steve Bannon

:06:36.:06:40.

is behind bomb threats to Jewish community centres. Aren't you in

:06:41.:06:44.

danger of just peddling wild conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I

:06:45.:06:48.

haven't. No matter how many times people say this, it's not going to

:06:49.:06:53.

be true -- first of all. I said in twitter I believe that to be the

:06:54.:06:56.

case about the murder of Andrew Breitbart. You believe President

:06:57.:07:03.

Putin murdered him. I didn't! You said I reported it, but I believed

:07:04.:07:07.

it. You put it on twitter that you believed it but you don't have a

:07:08.:07:12.

shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I know made assertions. What is the

:07:13.:07:17.

evidence that Mr Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe

:07:18.:07:23.

it. You may believe there are fairies at the bottom of your

:07:24.:07:26.

garden, it doesn't make it true. I may indeed. And if I say so, that's

:07:27.:07:31.

my belief. If I say I am reporting, as I did with the Fisa warrant

:07:32.:07:39.

exists, I have a basis in fact. They believe is just a belief. I know you

:07:40.:07:45.

are relatively new to journalism. Let me get the rules right. Andrew,

:07:46.:07:52.

jealousy is not your colour... If it is twitter, we don't believe it but

:07:53.:07:56.

if it is on your website, we should believe it? If I report something

:07:57.:08:00.

and I say this happened, then I am making an assertion. If I describe a

:08:01.:08:04.

belief, I am describing a belief. Subtlety may be a little difficult

:08:05.:08:10.

for you... No, no. If you want to be a journalist, beliefs have to be

:08:11.:08:17.

backed up with evidence. Really? Do you have a faith? It's not a matter

:08:18.:08:21.

of faith, maybe in your case, that President Putin murdered Andrew

:08:22.:08:26.

Breitbart. A belief and a report at two different things and no matter

:08:27.:08:30.

how often you say that they are the same, they will never be the same.

:08:31.:08:35.

You've said in today's Sunday Times here in London that you've turned

:08:36.:08:42.

into" a temporary superpower" where you "See things really clearly".

:08:43.:08:48.

Have you become delusional? No. I am describing a biological basis for

:08:49.:08:54.

ADHD, which I have. As any of your viewers who are doctors will know.

:08:55.:08:57.

It provides people with unfortunately a lot of scattered

:08:58.:09:01.

focus, they are very messy and absent-minded but when they are

:09:02.:09:03.

interested in things and they have ADHD they can have a condition which

:09:04.:09:08.

is hyper focus. You concentrate very hard on a given subject and you can

:09:09.:09:11.

see patterns and connections. That is biological. Thank you for

:09:12.:09:18.

explaining that. And for getting up early in New York. The first time

:09:19.:09:23.

ever I have interviewed a temporary superpower. Thank you. You are so

:09:24.:09:27.

lucky! You are so lucky! I don't think it's going to happen again.

:09:28.:09:31.

Please don't ask us to comment on that interview! I will not ask you,

:09:32.:09:35.

viewers will make up their own minds. Let's come back to be more

:09:36.:09:39.

mundane world of Article 50. Stop the killing!

:09:40.:09:44.

Will it get through at the government wanted it? Without the

:09:45.:09:49.

Lords amendment falling by the way that? I am sure the Lord will not

:09:50.:09:52.

try to ping-pong this back and forth. So we are at the end of this

:09:53.:09:56.

particular legislative phase. The fact that all three Brexit Cabinet

:09:57.:10:00.

ministers, number ten often don't like one of them going out on a

:10:01.:10:03.

broadcast interview on a Sunday, they've all been out and about. That

:10:04.:10:07.

suggests to me they are working on the assumption it will be triggered

:10:08.:10:12.

this week. This week. The negotiations will begin or at least

:10:13.:10:16.

the process begins. The negotiation process may be difficult, given all

:10:17.:10:19.

of the European elections. The Dutch this week. And then the French and

:10:20.:10:25.

maybe the Italians and certainly the Germans by the end of September,

:10:26.:10:28.

which is less predictable than it was. Given all that, what did you

:10:29.:10:34.

make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom on her part, that we may just end up

:10:35.:10:38.

crashing out in six months question -- fear on her part. It was not just

:10:39.:10:44.

that that we made that deliberately organising. I want us to get on with

:10:45.:10:46.

the deals. Everyone knows a good deal is the

:10:47.:10:54.

best option. Who knows what is going to be on the table when we finally

:10:55.:10:58.

go out? Fascinatingly, the demand for some money back, given the

:10:59.:11:03.

amount of money... Net gains and net costs in terms of us leaving for the

:11:04.:11:07.

EU. It is all to play for. That will be a possible early grounds for a

:11:08.:11:14.

confrontation between the UK and the EU. My understanding is that they

:11:15.:11:19.

expect to do a deal on reciprocal rights of EU nationals, EU nationals

:11:20.:11:23.

here, UK citizens there, quite quickly. They want to clear that up

:11:24.:11:27.

and that will be done. Then they will hit this problem that the EU

:11:28.:11:31.

will be saying you've got to agree the divorce Bill first before we

:11:32.:11:36.

talk about the free trade bill. David Davis saying quite clearly,

:11:37.:11:39.

no, they go together because of the size of the bill. It will be

:11:40.:11:44.

determined, in our part, by how good the access will be. The mutual

:11:45.:11:48.

recognition of EU residents' rights is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss

:11:49.:11:52.

is attracted to that subject but it is the easiest thing to deal with,

:11:53.:11:56.

as is free movement for tourists. Money is what will make it

:11:57.:11:59.

incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly quickly. I imagine the dominant

:12:00.:12:02.

story in the summer will be all about that. This was Anna Soubry's

:12:03.:12:06.

implication, members of the governors could strongly argue,

:12:07.:12:10.

things are so poisonous and so unpleasant at the moment, the

:12:11.:12:13.

dealers are advancing -- members of the government. Why not call it a

:12:14.:12:18.

day and go out on WTO terms while public opinion is still in that

:12:19.:12:22.

direction in that Eurosceptic direction? No buyers' remorse about

:12:23.:12:25.

last year's referendum. The longer they leave it, view more opportunity

:12:26.:12:30.

there is for some kind of public resistance and change of mind to

:12:31.:12:34.

take place. The longer believe it, the more people who voted for Brexit

:12:35.:12:38.

and people who voted Remain and think we didn't get world War three

:12:39.:12:42.

will start being quite angry with the EU for not agreeing a deal. In

:12:43.:12:45.

terms of the rights of EU nationals he and Brits abroad, by all

:12:46.:12:52.

accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed individually. Angela Merkel is the

:12:53.:12:55.

only person who has held that up. That will be dealt with in a matter

:12:56.:12:59.

of days. The chances of a deal being done is likely but in ten seconds...

:13:00.:13:05.

It would not be a bad bet to protect your on something not happening, you

:13:06.:13:08.

might get pretty good odds? The odds are going up that a deal doesn't

:13:09.:13:13.

happen. But, as I said earlier, the House of Commons will not endorse no

:13:14.:13:18.

deal. We are either in an early election or she has to go back

:13:19.:13:23.

again. Either way, you will need us! We will be back at noon tomorrow on

:13:24.:13:28.

BBC Two ahead of what looks like being a big week in politics. We

:13:29.:13:31.

will be back here same time, same place.

:13:32.:13:34.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:35.:14:38.

They're calling it an entertainment extravaganza

:14:39.:14:46.

audience fun and frolics and outrageous shenanigans.

:14:47.:14:50.

And I don't even know what those HONK words mean.

:14:51.:14:54.

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