28/05/2017 Sunday Politics North West

Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

Are the politicians and the security services doing

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

for a new Commission to counter extremism.

We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

more staff at security and intelligence agencies.

Security is stepped up at events across Manchester.

The city keeps on running - we ask, does politics need to pick

what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.

To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by

Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.

They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join

So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign

And some recent polls suggest the race is just

We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,

here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:

Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.

This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions

While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,

there will be no break in campaigning for

And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall

On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -

the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's

Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see

representatives from the seven main parties debate in front

On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...

Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May

They won't debate each other, but will take questions

consecutively from members of the audience.

The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians

cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go

We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,

with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.

Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion

And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.

There are five new opinion polls today, which have

the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six

points to 14 points. So, what's going on?

Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn

to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.

Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They

may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of

these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying

before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the

Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour

vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative

lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are

now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can

no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some

posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get

rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major

sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if

they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of

those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether

the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing

more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot

box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a

landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a

majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground

depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour

Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week

one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of

people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I

usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.

They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have

looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour

have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional

voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of

those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a

particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous

opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the

Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is

one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of

us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained

that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in

an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly

among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be

wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in

truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are

wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.

The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support

early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in

Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has

already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the

possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.

That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned

should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what

looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a

massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.

Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.

Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy

and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.

The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa

May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour

Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't

mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The

more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have

seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and

stable leadership and then you do something like a massive

unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even

greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion

polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the

reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning

because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting

is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the

media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question

of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be

broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high

significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than

many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the

combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis

said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much

campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national

campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls

are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts

about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come

next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite

understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to

frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The

electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to

Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is

framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both

manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes

down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more

promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.

Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit

election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes

down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how

the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a

couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who

you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is

already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government

policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.

The election campaign was, of course, put on hold

following the terrorist attack in Manchester

But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly

surprising that security is now a primary concern.

The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more

Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts

have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police

numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It

is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an

imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I

would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would

hope they would have the resources to act as well.

Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice

Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and

Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has

already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has

said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to

much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the

safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the

Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police

would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There

are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut

by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We

are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra

security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas

identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is

the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security

services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more

police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more

resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are

committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as

well. You are not committing anything more. The government has

not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --

promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security

on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at

the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to

keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and

more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen

to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out

for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm

talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme

violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.

Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving

the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.

We need to listen to the intelligence community and the

security service, to the army and the police, about what they think

and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is

clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is

less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security

services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn

will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more

powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole

political career voting against measures designed to tackle

home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on

safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the

security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against

the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in

2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new

powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along

with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against

legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or

actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we

don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye

to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for

terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made

clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the

security services, what he said about the international situation

has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and

her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President

Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and

security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at

some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in

2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy

Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with

Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket

it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn

will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.

If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,

or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out

what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the

devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism

by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have

been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that

is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the

MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as

Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being

done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism

and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of

terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there

were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more

security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable

with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is

complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do

it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder

of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he

mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of

Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is

responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and

something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said

the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,

he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he

didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a

Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that

day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did

we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows

Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party

politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.

Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission

The party says it will identify extremism, including

the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.

Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,

has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror

online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about

social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down

extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look

at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not

sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can

put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article

in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are

not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime

Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think

there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned

the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is

action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the

newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what

powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down

this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we

have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we

cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my

department over in the United States with American officials working with

CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The

best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to

change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you

are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line

of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence

they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election

was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have

evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being

difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not

only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow

this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make

the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be

taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across

social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same

end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate

preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is

this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies

take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could

show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from

internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often

the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the

algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered

to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how

they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the

path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a

practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that

sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions

about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down

the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the

work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for

example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of

seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by

captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not

acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a

politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite

menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That

includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So

I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is

the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much

progress you can make. The Government says there are up to

23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those

posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty

disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester

shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge

we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is

powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have

increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers

of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...

Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have

increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from

?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number

of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the

resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and

time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your

disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced

in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only

seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It

is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away

people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I

cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding

their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of

citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because

of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more

powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?

Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other

measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,

that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.

Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the

court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict

people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people

safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I

tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be

struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy

is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get

the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If

we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that

allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and

intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.

Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --

thank you. The revelation that the Manchester

suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this

country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's

counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two

people who've spent their careers investigating

radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,

of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle

for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism

organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take

on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.

First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,

all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon

response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse

to accurately identify the sources of the problem,

and polite society This country gave asylum to

the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity

by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this

country had given him. We need to think far more

deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't

have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem

because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw

any lessons from this? For the time being, the game

is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within

the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British

officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis

and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme

versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we

became serious too. Islamist extremism is

flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,

so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those

Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,

discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored

by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural

sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some

of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers

tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds

of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter

challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,

which includes opposition I've seen politicians

and charities partner with and support some of these

voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups

will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,

in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not

to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,

it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those

who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray

join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did

you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.

Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this

atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He

was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student

leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter

extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did

this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism

policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger

problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them

to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which

discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you

discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be

held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from

I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined

Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the

forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider

counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has

flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal

ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of

people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of

people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been

quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.

Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the

comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that

we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood

give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less

Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the

middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the

beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security

simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with

Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th

century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror

organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,

but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the

faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror

organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a

caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights

culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to

counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history

of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they

have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply

resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But

they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds

of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they

found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more

Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything

we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale

of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter

radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had

with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a

hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,

gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?

The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.

We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we

are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to

challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to

counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough

work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away

people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we

do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average

Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up

our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government

money and you are an institution like Salford University you should

be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security

measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human

rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.

We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This

is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the

Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.

One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of

it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term

Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive

trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to

counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a

collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push

back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.

We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending

absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very

much. It's just gone 11.35,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

minutes, the Week Ahead. I'm Nina Warhurst, welcome

to the centre of Manchester. Behind me, along the city's famous

Deansgate, thousands are taking part The half marathon started a couple

of hours ago and more will set off shortly on a course

of ten kilometres. People in Manchester and the wider

City Region are trying to get back to normal

after Monday's terror attack. Here to reflect on those events

and to look ahead to the general election are Barbara Keeley,

who's contesting Worsley David Mowat is the Conservative

candidate in Warrington South. And John Leech is the Liberal

democrat candidate for Before we hear from them,

Let's hear from some of the runners. So proud to be from Manchester

this week as well. Manchester being my home

city, I wanted to come and show my support for what's gone

on over the last week. And just be part of

the community that's down here. When the IRA bombed

the Arndale Centre, It carried on, and everything will

carry on now. It's set to be a particular

emotional run from lots of the people taking part today. Will end

this week of Manchester's defiance and strength, demo we also learned

that we are vulnerable. And a week of unthinkable people, we can call

it that. But I have been very proud of our

fabulous NHS staff, they way that people in this city had decided to

stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Manchester, united in

supporting our Sister city. A wake-up call at the same time? All

of us will remember being to Manchester Arena, picking our

children up from the Manchester Arena. And Barbara's right, we've

also seen the best of Manchester over the last few days. And we are

seeing it again today. And we had that from the runners you

interviewed. John, your been out about over the past week, how are

people in Manchester? First for today, and the visuals during the

week, it showed the true spread of Manchester. Manchester people are

not going to stop going about their day to day lives because of a

terrible tragedy. It was an appalling act of terrorism, but the

people of Manchester will not bow down to that, they will carry on

regardless, because that is what Manchester people do. We have seen

evidence of that time and time again. It was described as the worst

terror attack ever to hit the north of England. The attacker was born

and bred here in Manchester, and the Chief Constable of Manchester police

says he has uncovered much of the network he was working in.

From the second Salman Abedi blew himself up on Monday night,

ending 22 lives and shattering many more, the authorities were forced

And forced to confront the reality of the security

The police counterterrorism strategy is known as the four Ps.

Three of them - Prepare, Protect and Persue -

But it's the fourth one, Prevent, that has come in for some criticism

Prevent requires public bodies and comunity groups to report any

The mayor of Greater Manchester has, in the past, campaigned to scrap it.

Some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion

hanging over a community, or that is how the communities can feel.

Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some

And I would argue it is in need of a review.

You cannot have policies targeted at just one community

without creating a sense of division and alienation.

They've already started talking about, is there a secondary target?

Jim and Ian run a counterterrorism masters course at UClan in Preston.

He was born in Syria and his family's still there.

They use these rooms to train students in scenarios similar

Do you think the counterterrorism strategy is broadly

Some people are gone as far to say it radicalises people.

I can't find any sense in that argument.

I think there are much stronger arguments to say that, in fact,

But has south Manchester become a centre of radicalisation?

More than a dozen men from the streets have been involved

Until a few years ago, Ian worked this beat

It's so important that the police and other agencies do have very

current, active and strong contacts in those communities.

My personal experience has always been very, very positive.

As long as explanation takes place, as long

This iman has been involved in the Prevent strategy.

If things have been missed here, if things have been lost,

I will tell you for one, I will be the stronger voice out

there to say why and bring those people to task.

Because this is our faith - from my perspective, it's my faith

Amina has written about extremism and the approach to it.

Prevent has got a branding problem, but absolutely I'm a supporter

I'm critical of it, it has flaws, it's not perfect.

It's about preventing young people from being radicalised.

How can anyone with a sane mind and some intellect be against that?

As the police continue their work at various locations around

Manchester, is the Prevent strategy helping or hindering the fight

David, we let this week that Salman Abedi had been repeatedly reported

to the authorities through the Prevent strategy, and yet this

happen. Where does it go from here? No system is going to be 100%

graphic. There is something like 2000 people at the interest in the

Prevent strategy. He had been one of those and was no longer. Perhaps

questions need to be asked about that. The fact is that the Prevent

strategy has stopped four or five similar attacks to this since the

Westminster bombing. And the bankers it is very difficult anybody to stop

everything. As the IRA used to say, we may have to be lucky once, you

had to be lucky every single time. I think it is misplaced to criticise

the security services on that basis alone. Of course it is that as

questions... Bid people who had been reported through Prevent...? Is

always some people who have made that assessment will need to answer

questions. There are several thousand people who had been

reported, thousands every year. It's not that easy. I think it is

certainly the case that the Prevent strategy has had some successes, but

it is also very true it has had some significant failings. It has led to

some resentment in certain parts of the community, and within schools

and colleges where people think it's been a heavy-handed approach. It is

the fact that it is then lead to resentment has probably not make the

situation any better. Is that right, it has become counter-productive

because it accuses of one group? It is not just Andrew Burnham that has

described that way. The terror threat increased this week, and with

hate crime rising, which usually happens as a follow-on, we have to

look at resorting too. There has to be sufficient police resources. On

the package, you had police patrolling. We've lost 2000 police

officers in Greater Manchester since 2010, and there are serious

questions to be asked. We want to recruit more neighbourhood police

officers to be the first level of eyes and ears for intelligence. I

just want to come back on that, because you said Prevent was

targeted on one community, that isn't true. That is the perception.

Then we need to tackle that perception, because it is not true.

Because it picks a people and the far right as well. Video terrorism

is that the Prevent strategy needs to be reviewed. He suggested this

week that the training materials from eight should be published so it

is clear that it is not aimed at one particular community. The truth is

that we have a major issue here. Several thousands of people

potentially out of their lives somehow being radicalised in a way

that is really horrible, and we need to do with that as a society. We

need to face up to it. It's about counterterrorism protectively and

not as community officers on the beat. That is where the money needs

to be spent. Rainbows and think it is also not just about Shia police

numbers. It is about the fact that this particular individual was very

well known to the services suggests that, yes, the Prevent strategy has

worked in making people aware of his activism and his views, but,

unfortunately, that had not been followed through with making sure he

didn't turn into a radicalised Islamist. The police are going to be

very stretched, there are many here today, and I'm sure the clouds are

glad of that. But they are working round the clock shifts, there are

very stretched. It is not just a question of bobbies on the beat,

they can be the eyes and ears for state intelligence services. I did

disagree with that, but I would also save the counterterrorism part of

the budget is the part that is actually charged with making sure

that people are reported through Prevent, and it's something not

possible to follow 2000 people of interest across the country. We

can't do that, we don't have the resources. Let's hear from the

leader of Ukip, because they were the first party to get back to

campaigning this week on Thursday, they launch their manifesto. And the

next day, Jeremy Corbyn gave a speech on foreign policy. Let's hear

from both. When I was elected leader

of Ukip six months ago, I was clear right away

that the threat posed to our country by Islamic fundamentalism was one

of the major issues that I, and indeed all politicians,

would face in the coming years. I also made it clear that extra

investment in the security I would like to take a moment

to speak to our soldiers You're doing your duty, as you have

done so many times before. I want to assure you that,

under my leadership, will only be deployed abroad

when there is a clear need, and only when there is a plan that

you have the resources to do your job and secure an outcome

that delivers lasting peace. Barbara, a link between British

foreign policy and the attacks in Manchester, implicit or otherwise

from Jeremy Corbyn - from Jeremy Corbyn -

criticism to that led to it being crass or utterly exported live. Can

you defend it? It is a point that has been made by David Cameron,

David Davies, Boris Johnson. I think we have seen Boris Johnson's recent

comments that were very similar. Let's not get away from the fact

that this is no bigger bleak evil act committed by an individual and

possibly his associates. What has been happen is drawing out the

context of that evil act. It doesn't in any way change the evil of the

act, but it is drying out the contacts. But given that many others

have actually made the same link, I think drawing out the context is...

Many people have said our foreign policy has said... Yes, they did.

The question Jeremy Corbyn needs to answer is, if it is about our

foreign policy, why to countries like Sweden, who have a completely

different policy, have suffered many more attacks? People These don't

hate what we do, they hate what we are. We need to deal with it on that

basis. Jeremy Corbyn, on the basis of Prevent, has voted against every

single piece of counterterrorism legislation over the past 25 years.

And at the thought of him coming in now... How do you think Jeremy

Corbyn's voting recommends people feel? People understand Jeremy's

position on these issues. We are committed as a party to the policies

we are committed to. Let me bring John in, because you can't truly

deny that senior pulses senior politicians like David Cameron have

all made this comparison. The main issue is the timing of when this was

set. It was completely inappropriate. And just gives people

who want to find an excuse and excuse for a terrorist atrocity.

Timing aside, is it correct? Do we need to look at foreign policy?

Regardless of whether we made right wrong decisions as far as foreign

policy is concerned, that is no excuse, ever, for any terrorist

atrocity. That is an absolute given. And while I suspect that Jeremy

Corbyn didn't mean to suggest that it did, the timing of when he said

it, I think, get the opportunity to others to make that allegation. It's

point straight after a terrible point straight after a terrible

event that people are going to try and look at the context. If we look

at carbon's track record of explicit support for the IRA. When there was

a beheading... That was my constituent. Jeremy Corbyn said when

you want to make these you have to talk to people you disagree with.

Dimmer on what subject are wriggling to negotiate with Isis? Are we going

to say we are going to stone homosexuals more slowly? What...?

But 22 people died in this atrocity, so the policy is not working as

current. I agree that if Prevent hasn't got the endorsement of the

vast majority of moderate and decent Muslims, it will fail, I absolutely

agree. But that isn't to say we should just get rid of it. You

constituent who was on a mercy constituent who was on a mercy

mission to Syria, that was a totally different thing. And our communities

all came together, as occurs in this week, and we managed to deal with

that in a united way. I seek immunity is every work together,

it's great to see. Election campaigning at a local

level is also back under way. Our Cheshire reporter Phil McCann

spent a day in the Conservative On the hottest day of the year

so far in west Kirby, terrorism wasn't much

on people's minds. Just had a little walk on the lake,

got me feet soaked. How does it feel, living

amongst all of this? It's the same beat that

Jeremy Corbyn visited last weekend, a celebratory mood here

and at nearby Prenton Park. But after voters here have taken

in the events at Manchester Arena, They should be different,

but I did think they will. It's just what politics

is like, isn't it? A lot of the things what they'll

bring up in the election will be to do with terrorism,

etc, but people will start thinking It presents a dilemma for

the candidates here in the marginal I would hope that things will be

slightly toned down. And there'll be a bit

more sensitivity. One thing we can do to make sure

that we show that democracy hasn't been disrupted by events is to run

a civilised contest. The Conservatives lost

to Labour by just 400 votes The party's getting 90%

of the vote between them. And for both, the events

of last week will change We want to still make sure that

people are still aware that there is lots of important

issues to be addressed. Not least security, and what we need

is a Government that can actually to keep the country safe,

keep our region safe. I think that it's important

that we look at how I think that's very important,

and I don't think there's People are aware that we do need

to take action to make So, as the campaign

picks up speed and heads towards the final straight,

it's not quite politics as normal. David, some of the polls this week

have closed the gap down to about 5%, suggesting that the U-turn on

the dementia tax is still in people's consciences, despite the

Prime Minister trying to put a case across on Monday? The polls have

narrowed very significantly, and every indication now is that this is

going to be a very close election, rather like the last one. There's a

choice to be made in ten day's time on who we want our Prime Minister to

be. George Osborne has said the social care policy clearly wasn't

thought through, we know it wasn't, because the Prime Minister had to

rethink it the next day. Is he right? And don't think he was

completely right, no. The one part of that policy I do agree with is a

change to the amount you can keep, at the marmot it's 23,000, as far as

I am aware that remains Labour and Liberal Democrat policy. 100,000 is

what we said in terms of the chains that we're making, and that's

significantly more generous. Between us we're going to do but a great

deal more money into social care. The interesting fact, using its

moral generous, you have cut back on the position you are in. The real

worry is introducing people losing the value of their homes to pay for

that care. I have to say, that has gone down very badly with my

constituents. They are very worried. Because now if you go into a care

home... Should we have to pave through our estates, should we be

sharing that money? People should not be losing their homes. They

won't be, though. Effectively, they are losing their homes, they are

losing their homes for their children. We have to accept it has

been an absolute shambles, and know winner seriously thinks that Jeremy

Corbyn's going to be Prime Minister. I'm sure Labour supporters would

dispute that! When people think there is any prospect of Jeremy

Corbyn being Prime Minister there will be a big swing away from the

Labour. Because while Jeremy Corbyn attracts a certain type of voter...

We were talking about dementia tax, and that is one of the things really

worrying people. Other things that worry people are children losing a

free school meals. When it gets to the point where it's neck and neck,

will people think, actually, we don't trust him the? We've had

alarmism about people losing their homes. Under the last Labour

Government thousands of people had to sell their houses as a

consequence being in long-term care. Under this proposal, nobody would

have had to sell their home while they are alive. That is a big

difference. 45,000 be bad to sell the house... You're not being

realistic... A think the alarmist nonsense we have heard is one of the

reasons why people don't trust Labour on the sorts of things. We

will know and two weeks. That's it from us Manchester city centre, a

gloomy sky, but never a gloomy spirits. Thousands

re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.

Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election

campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.

Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is

that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who

do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only

be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters

this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about

Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,

is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the

tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech

last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin

analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I

think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack

just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister

has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,

it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic

attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You

raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader

argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two

courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation

about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.

You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign

by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by

politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a

divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue

that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply

unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me

does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic

event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue

that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political

battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a

tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree

or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a

time to review the level of argument? This is a political

debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and

about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We

mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when

we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a

lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do

you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that

suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,

which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.

Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to

grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power

Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And

not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another

example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David

Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now

heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I

personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the

major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of

terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate

terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be

supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an

election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the

Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a

great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that

will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole

point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not

quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less

impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just

repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They

like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we

see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting

to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are

asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will

that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in

terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why

she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will

absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is

a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65

million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.

It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you

think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they

will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls

and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to

get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on

one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume

that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable

campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.

On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.

Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the

Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have

had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.

Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home

Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home

office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government

has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in

additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in

the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You

voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on

that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.

We are making good progress with the companies who put in place

encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.

I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same

hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The

hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,

you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the

views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my

hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of

how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides

talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election

debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it

and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm

glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane

Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage

votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that

legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they

are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I

did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.

That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it

seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault

of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which

the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would

imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my

judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would

be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and

performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the

economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I

don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd

is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be

debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the

electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like

to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking

forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the

week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our

guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil

will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.

That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a

very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.