Browse content similar to 01/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne | :00:38. | :00:46. | |
announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the | :01:03. | :01:12. | |
Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
And coming up here: We reflect on a speech won | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
And coming up here: We reflect on a year of loyalist protests, we've a | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
report from the TUV's annual conference and we look at Alex | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
Salmond's "blueprint for Scottish independence". | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
week, another strategy? Can this one deliver? | :01:34. | :01:46. | |
And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after | :01:59. | :02:07. | |
weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
its answer. This Government is finally coming up with | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
Chancellor George Osborne explained how he plans to cut household energy | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
bills by an average of fifty quid. What we're going to do is roll back | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
the levees that are placed by government on people's electricity | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
bills. This will mean that for the average bill payer, they will have | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
?50 of those electricity and gas bills. That will help families. We | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
are doing it in the way that government can do it. We are | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
controlling the cost that families incurred because of government | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
policies. We are doing it in a way that will not damage the environment | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
or reduce our commitment to dealing with climate change. We will not | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
produce commit men to helping low-income families with the cost of | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
living. Janan, we are finally seeing the coalition begin to play its hand | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
in response to the Ed Miliband freeze? They have been trying to | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
in response to the Ed Miliband respond for almost ten weeks and | :03:08. | :03:08. | |
older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying, | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
incentive to go along with this, don't they? My worry is that I am | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 08 | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that ?50 | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or | :06:33. | :06:34. | |
is it taxes, I do comfortable with that or | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
against? I am very comfortable with the fact we are protecting for the | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
money is going. I am open to where the money comes from. The notion | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
that we should stop insulating the homes of elderly people or stop | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
investing in British manufacturing in terms of green industry, that is | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
something that I resolutely oppose, but I am pleased that the funding | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
will be made available for all that. You cannot ignore the fact that for | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
a whole range of reasons, mostly down to the actions of the energy | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
companies, you have prices that are shooting up and affecting lots of | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
people, making life hard. You cannot ignore that. If we fund the | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
installation of homes for older people and others, if we protect | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
British manufacturing jobs, and raise the money through general | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
taxation, I am comfortable with that. It is not clear that is going | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
to happen. It looks like the eco-scheme, whereby the energy | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
companies pay for the installation of those on below-average incomes, | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
they will spin that out over four years, not two years, and one | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
estimate is that that will cost 10,000 jobs. You're always boasting | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
about your commitment to green jobs, how do square that? I do not believe | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
that. The roll-out will be longer. The number of houses reached will be | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
greater and that is a good thing. My take is that it will not affect the | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
number of jobs. People talk about green levies. There has been | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
disparaging language about that sort of thing. There are 2 million people | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
in this country in the lowest income families and they get ?230 off their | :08:26. | :08:33. | |
energy bills because of what isn't -- because of what is disparaging | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
the refer to as green stuff, shall we call it. There will be more | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
properties covered. We both know that your party is being pushed into | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
this by the Tories. You would not be doing this off your own bad. You are | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
in coalition with people who have jettisoned their green Prudential | :08:56. | :09:04. | |
is? -- credentials. You have made my point quite well. David Cameron's | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
panicked response to this over the last few months was to ditch all | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
panicked response to this over the green stuff. It has been a job to | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills. | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not | :09:51. | :09:59. | |
reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
income people. What about the mansion tax? That would | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
income people. What about the potentially paid for by another view | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
source of finance. That would be that the wealthy... We know that is | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
what you want, but you're not going to get that? We will keep fighting | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
for it. It is extremely important. We can show where we will get the | :10:22. | :10:32. | |
money from. I know that is the adamant. That is not what I asked | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
you. Ed Balls and Labour run in favour of a mansion tax, have you | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
talked to them about it? The honest answer is I have not. It is | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
interesting that they have come round to supporting our policy | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
having rejected it in power. So if Labour was the largest party in | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
parliament but not in power, you would have no problem agreeing with | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
parliament but not in power, you a mansion tax as part of the deal? | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear, | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy. | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour, | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against | :12:10. | :12:22. | |
it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference. | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. -- on | :12:28. | :12:39. | |
the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view | :12:46. | :12:46. | |
tax, so you and Labour are that one that the top rate of income tax is a | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
fluid thing. All taxation levels are temporary. Nick Clegg said that when | :12:53. | :13:00. | |
the 50p rate came down to 45, that was a rather foolish price tag | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
George Osborne asked for in return for as increasing the threshold and | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
letting several million people out of paying income tax at the bottom. | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
So you agree with Labour? In favour of rising the tax to 50p. I take the | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
view that we should keep our minds open on that. It is not the income | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
tax level that bothers me, it is whether the wealthy pay their fresh | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
air. If that can be done through other taxes, then that is something | :13:32. | :13:32. | |
that I am happy with. -- their fair other taxes, then that is something | :13:33. | :13:43. | |
share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes, | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then. | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
disagree with. It is what grown-ups do. A lot of people in your party | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the | :15:17. | :15:29. | |
sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong", | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, | :16:13. | :16:14. | |
immigration is back on the political "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted | :16:49. | :16:58. | |
apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the | :16:59. | :16:58. | |
2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 2004. | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
The government has played down expectations that the skill of | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being | :17:22. | :17:32. | |
seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
some of the We think that we should learn from | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
with migration. It would have been better to have transitional controls | :18:08. | :18:09. | |
in place and look at the impact of what happened. But what preparations | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
did you make in power? We set out a series of measures that the | :18:16. | :18:17. | |
Government still had time to bring in. It is important that this should | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
be a calm and measured debate. There was time to bring in measures around | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
benefit restrictions, for example, and looking at the impact on the | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
labour market, to make sure you do not have exploitation of cheap | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
migrant Labour which is bad for everyone. I know that but I have | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
asked you before and I am asking again, what did you do? We got | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
things wrong in Government. I understand that I am not arguing. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
You are criticising them not preparing, a legitimate criticism, | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
but what did you do in power? Well, I did think we did enough. Did you | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
do anything? We signed the agency workers directive but too slowly. We | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
needed measures like that. We did support things like the social | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
chapter and the minimum wage, but I have said before that we did not do | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
enough and that is why we recommended the measures in March. I | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
understand that is what you did in opposition and I take that. I put | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
the general point to you that given your failure to introduce controls | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
on the countries that joined in 2004, alone among the major EU | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
economies we did that, should we not keep an embarrassed silence on these | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
matters? You have no credibility. I think you have got to talk about | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
immigration. One of the things we did not do in Government | :19:47. | :19:47. | |
discussed immigration and the concerns people have and the | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
long-term benefits that we know have come from people who have come to | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
Britain over many generations contributing to Britain and having a | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
big impact. I think we recognise that there are things that we did | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
wrong, but it would be irresponsible for us not to join the debate and | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
suggest sensible, practical measures that you can introduce now to | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
address the concerns that people have, but also make sure that the | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
system is fair and managed. Immigration is important to Britain | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
but it does have to be controlled and managed in the right way. Let's | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
remind ourselves of your record on immigration. The chart you did not | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
consult when in power. This is total net migration per year under Labour. | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
2.2 million of net rise in migration, more than the population | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- twice the population. Are you proud | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
of that or apologising for it? We set the pace of immigration was too | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
fat and the level was too high and it is right to bring migration down. | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
So you think that was wrong? Overruled have been huge benefits | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
from people that have come to Britain and built our biggest | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
businesses. -- overall. They have become Olympic medal winners. But | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
because the pace was too fast, that has had an impact. That was because | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
of the lack of transitional controls from Eastern Europe and it is why we | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
should learn from that and have sensible measures in place now, as | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
part of what has got to be a calm debate. These are net migration | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
figures. They don't often show the full figure. These are the | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
immigration figures coming in. What that chart shows is that in terms of | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
the gross number coming into this country, from the year 2000, it was | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
half a million a year under Labour. Rising to 600,000 by the time you | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
were out of power. A lot of people coming into these crowded islands, | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
particularly since most of them come to London and the South East. Was | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
that intentional? Was that out of control? Is that what you are now | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
apologising for? What we said was that the Government got the figures | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
wrong on the migration from Eastern Europe. If you remember particularly | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
there was the issue of what happened with not having transitional | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
controls in place. The Government didn't expect the number of people | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
coming to the country to be the way it was. And so obviously mistakes | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
were made. We have recognised that. We have also got to recognise that | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
this is something that has happened in countries all over the world. We | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
travel and trade far more than ever. We have an increasingly globalised | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
economy. Other European countries have been affected in the same way, | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
and America, and other developing countries affected in the same way | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
by the scale of migration. I am trying to work out whether the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
numbers were intentional or if you lost control. The key thing that we | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
have said many times and I have already said it to you many times, | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
Andrew, that we should have a transitional controls in place on | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
Eastern Europe. I think that would have had an impact on them level of | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
migration. We also should have brought in the points -based system | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
earlier. We did bring that in towards the end and it did | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
earlier. We did bring that in the level of low skilled migration | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
because there are different kinds of migration. University students | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
the Indian subcontinent. nothing to do with transitional | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
controls. You can control that immigration entirely because they | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
are not part of the EU. Was that a mistake? First of all, the big | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
increase was in the accession groups. Not according to the chart. | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
In terms of the increase, the changes that happened. Secondly, in | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
answer to the question that you just asked me, we should also have | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
introduced the points -based system at an earlier stage. Thirdly there | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
has been a big increase in the number of university students coming | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
to Britain and they have brought billions of pounds of investment. At | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
the moment the Government is not distinguishing, it is just using the | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
figure of net migration. And that is starting to go up again, as you said | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
in the introduction, but the problem is that it treats all kinds of | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
migration is aimed. It does not address illegal immigration, which | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
is a problem, but it treats university graduates coming to | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
Britain in the same way as low skilled workers. If Labour get back | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
into power, is it your ambition to bring down immigration? We have | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
already said it is too high and we would support measures to bring it | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
down. You would bring it down? There is something called student visas, | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
which is not included in the figures, and it does not include | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
university graduates, and it is a figure that has increased | :25:32. | :25:41. | |
substantially in recent years. They come for short-term study but they | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
do not even have to prove that they come for a college course. They do | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
not even have to have a place to come. Those visas should be | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
restricted to prevent abuse of the system and that is in line with a | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
recommendation from the Inspectorate and that is the kind of practical | :25:53. | :25:53. | |
thing that we could do. Can and that is the kind of practical | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is | :26:07. | :26:29. | |
right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then | :26:36. | :26:37. | |
she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible. | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,000 | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime. | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase, | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have | :27:16. | :27:24. | |
also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
that analysis, the right thing was that analysis, the right thing was | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting. | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners? | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections, | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms. | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out | :29:46. | :29:56. | |
a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
things and made it harder to get collaboration between police | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
forces. Everybody is asking this collaboration between police | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
question, just before you go. What is it like living with a nightmare? | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
Who does all the cooking, so I can't complain! Says Miliband people are | :30:29. | :30:37. | |
wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! In a speech this week, Boris Johnson | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
praised greed and envy as essential for economic progress, and that has | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
got tongues wagging. What is the Mayor of London up to? What is his | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
game plan? Does he even have a game plan and does he know if he has one? | :30:50. | :30:59. | |
Flash photography coming up. Boris. In many ways I can leave it there. | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
You'd know who I meant. And if you didn't, the unruly mop of blonde | :31:04. | :31:15. | |
hair would tell you, the language. Ping-pong was invented on the dining | :31:16. | :31:17. | |
tables of England. Somehow pulling off the ridiculous to the sublime. | :31:18. | :31:35. | |
It is going to go zoink off the scale! But often having to speed | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
away from the whiff-whaff of scandal. Boris, are you going to | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
save your manage? There's always been a question about | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
him and his as role as mayor and another prized position, as hinted | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
to the Tory faithful this year at conference, discussing former French | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain Juppe. He told me he was going to be | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he may have been mayor well he was | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
Prime Minister, it is the kind of thing they do in funds -- AvD in | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
France. It is a good idea, if you ask me. But is it a joke? He is much | :32:15. | :32:23. | |
more ambitious. Boris wants to be Prime Minister more than anything | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
else. Perhaps more than he wants to be made of London. The ball came | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
loose from the back of the scrum. Of course it would give great thing to | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
have a crack at, but it is not going to happen. He might be right. First, | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
the Conservatives have a leader, another Old Etonian, Oxford, | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
Bullingdon chap and he has the job Boris might like a crack at. What do | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
you do with a problem like Boris? It is one of the great | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
you do with a problem like Boris? It Tory politics that for Boris Johnson | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader. | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man | :33:12. | :33:13. | |
who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such | :33:23. | :33:33. | |
a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of | :33:39. | :33:52. | |
London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not | :33:59. | :34:06. | |
the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably | :34:10. | :34:18. | |
some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
President and so he is qualified to be | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris, and | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal. | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane. | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week. | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent | :36:46. | :36:53. | |
intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
competition, both in business deeply, and one is the idea of | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
academic selection. He has never been squeamish about expressing | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
that. We do make mistakes sometimes, assuming he is entirely political. | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
Look at all the Northern voters who will not vote for the Tories even | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
though they are socially or economic the Conservatives. I do not think he | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
helps. Who in the Tories would help? That is a tough question. To | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
reason me has also been speaking to the hard right. -- Theresa May. I | :37:56. | :38:04. | |
have been out with him at night. It is like dining with a film star. | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
People are queueing up to speak to him. Educational selection is one of | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
the few areas that he can offer. He has gone liberal on immigration, as | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
are made of London would have to. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics | :38:18. | :38:37. | |
in Northern Ireland. Loyalist protestors still on the streets of | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Belfast. 12 months on from the start of the flag protests, we'll be | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
looking back at a year of protest and disruption. Joining me with | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
their views, the Alliance MP for East Belfast, Naomi Long, and from | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
our Foyle studio, the DUP MP Gregory Campbell. We'll also hear from | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
yesterday's TUV conference in Cookstown where the party leader, | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
Jim Allister, made a prediction for the 2014 European election contest. | :39:00. | :39:09. | |
I see that the DUP has been suggesting they might even run two | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
candidates. They won't. And with me in studio to discuss that and more | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
are business consultant Joanne Stuart and commentator Seamus Close. | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
Almost exactly a year on from the decision to fly the union flag at | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
Belfast City Hall on designated days, around 2,000 loyalist | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
protestors gathered in the city centre. They breached a Parades' | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
Commission determination which said they had to be clear of the area by | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
half past 12. While there was no trouble in the city centre, a police | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
officer was knocked unconscious during clashes in North Belfast | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
involving protestors. Joining me now is the Alliance Party's Naomi Long | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
and Gregory Campbell of the DUP. Thank you both for joining us. Naomi | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
Long - one year on from the union Thank you both for joining us. Naomi | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
flag being restricted in its flying from the City Hall and still large | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
number of protestors are on the streets of the city centre. What's | :40:05. | :40:13. | |
your reaction to that? I think it's very disappointing that people, | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
after a year, are still convinced that these protests are going to | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
change anything. The decision taken by City Hall was taken for the right | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
reasons. It is a good decision and a democratic decision. No amount of | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
protest on the street will change that. So we need to be honest with | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
people engaged in those protests, but it's also unclear what they were | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
protesting about. Partly they were saying smashed the Alliance party, | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
partly they were protesting about political policing. So it's not | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
clear where their anger is directed. From my perspective, I | :40:49. | :40:49. | |
don't think it's political policing. directed. From my perspective, I | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
If you choose to express your politics through violence breaking | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
the law and are rested, that is not vertical policing. We need people to | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
restore order to the situation and to find ways of expressing concerns | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
that they have in a democratic and peaceful and lawful manner. Many of | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
them are constituents of yours in East Belfast and for whatever | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
reason, maybe a collection of reasons, they feel marginalised and | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
disenfranchised. That's a problem that isn't going to go away. But | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
everyone has the right of abode, whether they choose to exercise it | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
or not is a matter of choice for them. -- the right to vote. I would | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
put the blame on the door of Unionist politicians who have | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
continually fed unionists and loyalists a diet of negativity, of | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
loss. They have made the narrative of the agreement wonder they are | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
constantly losing, it's not the truth, but it's a diet they are fed | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
and they believe it's an argument that will get them more votes. They | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
want people to motivated by fear, and that is why we have a believe | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
good community who feel they haven't gained by the agreement because no | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
one gives them the objective argument. What you think the protest | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
achieved, if anything? Where we were last week, people were predicting | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
all sorts of violence and mayhem, quite rightly saying this is one of | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
the rest shopping days before Christmas, we should try and do our | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
best to minimise prospects of trouble and maximise the return to | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the economy. Of the more dire predictions materialise. Apart from | :42:33. | :42:40. | |
a few minor incidents, which are regrettable, for the most part it | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
appears to have passed off very peacefully. Hopefully, we can build | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
on that. I am just a bit concerned that if lessons can be learned | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
throughout the political process over the course of the last year, it | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
would appear that the Alliance party aren't learning very many. There was | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
a serious mistake, a democratic one, but a serious one made 12 months | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
ago. Let's not repeat the mistakes of trying to say to a community, we | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
don't care what you think or what you feel, or how strongly you | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
express your views, we're not going to change our mind. What progress | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
are you referring to when you say the progress of the last 12 months? | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
are you referring to when you say We are exactly where we were, with | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
another protest bringing the centre of Belfast to a standstill on the | :43:35. | :43:36. | |
busiest shopping day before Christmas. George January and | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
February last year, there were weekly and in some cases nightly | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
protests. In some instances they were violent and in other instances | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
they were peaceful. All of those days are hopefully behind us now but | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
people I think saw the benefit of getting registered to ensure that | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
their political voice was heard at the ballot ox, they need to keep on | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
doing that because elections are coming up and they need to express | :44:05. | :44:06. | |
their views peacefully and democratic way. If they do that, | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
hopefully all the political parties will learn lessons are not repeat | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
the mistakes of 12 months ago when there was a decision by a small | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
number of parties who didn't realise the implications of what they were | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
doing. They do now. So you need to learn a lesson? I think it's a | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
bizarre situation when you have a democratic Unionist saying we have | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
to learn lessons from having been intimidated and threatened for a | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
year. I have never said I don't care about depression people have for the | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
flag, or sensitive to their concerns, I engage with people on a | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
daily basis about that. But I will not be bullied or intimidated by | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
anyone into changing what is a good decision because we're not just | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
dealing with Unionists who feel disenfranchised, we are trying to | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
balance the needs of the whole community. I also think it shows how | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
accustomed and can dish and we are that when you have a police officer | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
knocked unconscious and another injured, will talk about that as a | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
good day for Belfast. injured, will talk about that as a | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
it is, I agree it was better than it might have been. You have welcomed | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
the fact that it was peaceful, broadly, and you made the point, | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
with the exception that two officers were injured, nonetheless it was not | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
unlawful parade. It was not because people who were taking part were not | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
clear of city centre by half past 12 and that was in the determination, | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
so they defied your party leader who said peaceful and lawful? It would | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
have been preferable had the parade not taken place on the Saturday, we | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
made that clear, but given the fact it was going to go ahead, we had to | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
work with what we have. There is no point in trying to say that we wish | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
it wasn't going to happen, bury our heads in the sand and hope | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
everything will turn out right. A heads in the sand and hope | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
lot of work was put in behind the scenes to try and ensure a peaceful, | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
lawful outcome. It was a lot better than it could have been. But is that | :46:14. | :46:22. | |
good enough? I wish we did live in a perfect world, but we don't. Let's | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
work with what we have, let's build. We talked about a year ago. A year | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
ago and implement were significant. It's on the decline now. Hopefully | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
we are starting to create a better economic future. We have to build on | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
that and hopefully progress the sense of alienation that is in there | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
in the working class Unionist community. Our final brief | :46:46. | :46:54. | |
sentence? I think it's important in a society when we have lost her grip | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
on the rule of law a society when we have lost her grip | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
Democrats, uphold the rule of law. Peaceful and lawful are not the same | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
thing. We need to have clear statement around that from political | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
representatives who are there to uphold the rule of law. Joining me | :47:13. | :47:23. | |
now to reflect on that are the commentator Seamus Close and the | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
business consultant Joanne Stuart. Not as bad as it could have been. | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
Once again, the shopkeepers, the traders, the people of Belfast, | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
people further afield, have been held hostage. Let's be blunt, held | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
hostage by a couple of thousand people who were breaking the law in | :47:42. | :47:49. | |
an illegal protest, organised and led by a faceless individual whose | :47:50. | :47:50. | |
an illegal protest, organised and name we don't know until lives | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
outside Belfast. What sort of a society... I listen to both the | :47:56. | :48:03. | |
politicians saying they are opposed and would have preferred it not to | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
happen. I think that would be the judgement of the vast majority, if | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
not all of the politicians in Northern Ireland, would have | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
preferred that the parade didn't take place. Yet in spite of that, it | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
took place. So democracy is set aside by a crowd... Why are we | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
cuddling up to them? Why did they get permission in the first place? | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
Why did the traders have to lose business yet again, and Belfast | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
dragged through the gutter by people who obviously don't care about | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
Belfast? They obviously have their selfish and confused motives. | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
Because the flag will not be because 2000 people gather in front | :48:41. | :48:52. | |
of City Hall. You are close to the business community. You have had a | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
senior position presenting that. How serious is the issue for business | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
confidence in. Fast? It is very serious. Nobody in business wanted | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
to see that parade on Saturday. It is the busiest trading day. What | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
seems to not be considered are the rights of business owners to trade | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
uninterrupted, and threatened and unharmed. Grigori mentioned focusing | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
on the economy, and it's the economy that will create jobs, create a more | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
positive economic future. It's important that there is a concerted | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
focus and effort on economic issues because they are the keys to | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
tackling and addressing our social issues. Do | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
tackling and addressing our social could have been worse? It obviously | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
could have, there is relief there was no violence within the city | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
centre, I appreciate there was some violence you wouldn't want to see | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
but it shouldn't have taken place. Thanks very much now. The TUV | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
leader, Jim Allister, has been talking elections. He told his | :50:02. | :50:03. | |
annual conference in Cookstown that the DUP is bluffing about the | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
possibility of running two candidates in next year's European | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
poll. But he was more coy about what his own party will do. Here's our | :50:11. | :50:12. | |
Political Correspondent, Gareth Gordon. There is more than one view | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
of Jim Allister. According to his party chairman, some people in | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
dormant think he is a pain in the neck. Then there is the view of his | :50:22. | :50:29. | |
followers. Jim Allister I believe is the man for Ulster. Great leader, a | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
truthful man. He is doing a fantastic job. His only main rival | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
is and Travers, who inspired him to introduce the bill. Also there was a | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
soldier injured in the bombing carried out by the special adviser | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
in question, Paul Kavanagh. It's not right somebody should shoot, kill | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
and murder a police officer and get two years in prison, that's not | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
right. He was referring to the case of the husband of this woman. She | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
declined to be interviewed. In his conference speech, Jim Allister's | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
favourite target was his former party. The DUP conference on the | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
Friday night, at their dinner, they had an illusionist, long. -- come | :51:23. | :51:30. | |
along. The first thing that surprised me was they had to bring | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
someone in to perform. Then he looked ahead to future elections. I | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
see that the DUP has been suggesting they might even run two candidates. | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
They won't, ladies and gentlemen. Last time they fought the European | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
elections, their candidate held on by her fingernails to creep in for | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
the third seat, there is no way they will be fighting with two | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
candidates. There was however one omission from the speech, what the | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
TUV was going to do in that election. Jim Allister has been | :52:14. | :52:14. | |
quick to tell us what the DUP election. Jim Allister has been | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
not do. Not so quick to tell us what his own party will. You can tempt me | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
as much as you like but I will not be telling you today what the TUV | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
will be doing. He may concentrate on the council elections instead. We | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
are not going to know until next year. Obviously, Jim Allister | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
getting the party faithful to lap it up. Can they expand beyond their | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
core race? I think their core base is narrow and will remain so. He is | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
very productive in the Assembly, he is the epitome of what opposition | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
should be. Look at the number of questions, he has dozens down at any | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
point in time. And they are about questions, he has dozens down at any | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
salient issues that affect every man, woman and child in Northern | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
Ireland. He is doing a wonderful job as an MLA, but the negativity of his | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
party comes across through him, that is his big problem. Will he run a | :53:19. | :53:28. | |
candidate for Europe? Politics is about running candidates, if he | :53:29. | :53:30. | |
doesn't, he will demonstrate more negativity. Will he polled better | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
than the 66,000 last time? Good question. Let's pause, then, and | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
have a look at the week gone past in 60 seconds - with Stephen Walker. | :53:42. | :53:50. | |
After a car bomb partially exploded in Belfast city centre, Americans | :53:51. | :53:52. | |
were warned to take care, but some thought that advice was overplayed. | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
It has been blown out of all proportion in Northern Ireland. | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
It has been blown out of all Claims about Gerry Adams and the IRA | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
continued. MLAs were told past should not dictate future. I think | :54:08. | :54:14. | |
the people who make the argument that you can't further contribute to | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
society because you were a member of the IRA in the past are making a | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
huge mistake. Health minister ordered a review into the treatment | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
of patients at a County Antrim nursing home. An independent report | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
said the SDLP were complacent and stuck in the past. But the party | :54:32. | :54:39. | |
said they had much to offer. If there are perceptions out there that | :54:40. | :54:41. | |
I think are wrong, we have to challenge them. | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
The Scottish Government has published its blueprint for | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
independence. The 670-page document promises a 'revolution' in social | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
policy, with childcare at its heart. Politicians at Stormont have been | :54:58. | :54:59. | |
watching events in Edinburgh carefully. The Deputy First | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
Minister, Martin McGuinness, has said local parties should stay out | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
of the debate. The First Minister, Peter Robinson, took a different | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
approach. He's talked in the past about the emotional bonds that link | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
Scotland and Northern Ireland and is firmly opposed to the proposal. | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
Joining me is Professor Graham Walker from Queen's University. | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
Graham, what did you make of this White Paper? I think the Scottish | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
Government set out the case for independence quite soberly. I think | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
Alex Salmond has been trying to reassure people for some time that | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
the transition to independence can be a smooth one. However he's not in | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
a position to reassure yet about key issues such as the European Union | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
membership, the currency, and so on. This is where the no camp are. They | :55:46. | :55:53. | |
are trying to put forward the argument that this is a leap into | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
the unknown that carries too many risks. Alex Salmond's line is it as | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
an exciting opportunity. Is it affordable? If you put better social | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
policy at the heart of an independent Scotland, that's fine, | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
but can it pay for it? A lot might come down to the oil revenues, and a | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
great deal of negotiation is going to have to come into that. I think | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
it's a fair point about whether it's affordable or not but what is | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
significant is that he should put that at the centre of things. Was | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
the message he is trying to put over is that the welfare, a compelling | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
reason to continue to support the union, he would say that is | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
weakening and he can actually union, he would say that is | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
better social welfare provision in an independent Scotland. The first | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
minister has been very clear that this is up to the people of | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
Scotland, not for us to interfere, but he also feels passionately that | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
an independent Scotland would not be good for the UK. So what kind of | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
impact do you think the debate is likely to have on this side of the | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
Irish Sea? A profound impact, particularly as we get close to the | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
date of the referendum. It does suggest that if there is a yes vote, | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
then of course the Russian ship of these islands is going to change | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
profoundly -- the relationship. If they are saying that the union is | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
saved, it cuts the ground from that if a major partner is going to | :57:28. | :57:35. | |
depart. So there are all sorts of anxieties and risks. I think | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
Unionists tend to read across rather simplistically of the situation from | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
here and Scotland. The two situations are very different. | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
Divisions in Scotland will not map onto religious divisions. And also, | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
Scottish Unionism has a nationalist element, nationalism is an important | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
part of Scottish Unionism and Scottish nationalism has never been | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
about grievances and troubled history, certainly not nearly as | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
much. This seems to be a sense that it is unlikely they would be a yes | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
vote, but still Alex Salmond appears to be building a momentum. A year is | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
a long time in politics, is it possible that events could move it | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
in the direction of Alex Salmond and ultimately, there could be a yes | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
vote? Is that realistic? I think it is. I would say that at the moment. | :58:32. | :58:40. | |
I think the yes campaign have a new momentum, and things like the | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
bedroom tax have undoubtedly affected the game recently. He has | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
been able to put that into his White paper, saying he's going to abolish | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
that, that phase will rule out Scotland. Do you think there will be | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
an interest in Northern Ireland about that? I think some people will | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
want to get directly involved. I think those in the prounion camp | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
have an incentive to try and cooperate with others in that camp | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
to come up with a constructive vision of the union, as they are | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
going to have to do that soon, they can't just rely on saying it is all | :59:21. | :59:29. | |
too risky. Thanks very much. Just time for a final word from our | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
guests of the day. What do you make of that debate? Are you interested? | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
Absolutely, a lot of trade goes on with Scotland, from the perspective | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
of the decision to change corporation tax, work is continuing | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
on that, if there is a no vote, how we take that forward and if there is | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
a yes vote, there is an implication for the rest of the UK. I haven't | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
got through all the pages yet but at least we have something that sets | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
out what an independent Scotland could look like and the | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
implications. What do you make of the debate? Very interesting. I | :00:08. | :00:14. | |
figured should be a spectator sport. It is interesting for Scotland, but | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
I think it is ironic that the Unionists are the ones who want to | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
get involved but they are the most this difference whenever another | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
country tries all attempts to speak about what happens in Northern | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
Ireland. So I think they should take a leaf out of their own book and | :00:31. | :00:40. | |
keep quiet and spectate. The Haass talks move into the final | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
negotiation stage this month. December is make or break time. We | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
need to get a consistent message from our population -- politicians, | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
we need to get the confidence and stability, we are waiting eagerly to | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
see what comes out. I get optimistic that Haass will leave him with a | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
deal done? I don't think so, I think one of the key issues will be in the | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
long-term future. The politicians have an awful lot of work to do, | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
there is a lot riding on this. Futures are riding on this. We have | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
to sort out the mess and get on with it. Thank you both very much. | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
touching on eugenics and things like that. That is all we have time for. | :01:28. | :01:42. | |
Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5 | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan | :02:35. | :02:44. | |
B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
it. Peter Hain told me it would be Blanchflower said it would be 5 | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has | :03:21. | :03:30. | |
been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7. | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that, | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement, | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
headlines. Each time, the our watchword should be. Look at the | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant. | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom. | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
2008, and exports, despite a 20% devaluation, our flat. Let's get one | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking... | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that? | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this. | :07:09. | :07:39. | |
Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime | :07:40. | :08:03. | |
Minister and the Chancellor do. They unimportant, but clearly the Prime | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment. | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of | :09:40. | :09:49. | |
Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip, we | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights. | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
It is awkward to deal with that, all in the name of getting up to where | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific, but | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China, | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
very important. High-level delegations from other countries go | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
to these places because the addict -- because they are important export | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there, | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes, | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
that should be looked at. The 40p rate comes in at quite a low level | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy. | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
Chancellor has been very open about 40p rate will kick in at a slightly | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best. | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now, | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
consumer spending as a source of to rise? That is a better hope than | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly | :13:32. | :13:33. | |
political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
Two at midday all this today. The Daily Politics is on BBC | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:48. | :13:50. |