Browse content similar to 02/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
minutes, we will have more Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
in Northern Ireland. As the results of the unregulated transfer tests | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
are published, we ask is there any prospect of political agreement on | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
how children move from primary to secondary education? I think by | :00:20. | :00:31. | |
changing they have made it a more complicated and more stressful for | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
children. It is too much pressure on them. Parents are getting themselves | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
worked up about it and I see the children getting worked up. Also, | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
the Shankill's secret republican link to the Spanish Civil War. What | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
other surprises has our history got in store as the big centenaries | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
loom? And with me throughout, with their thoughts, the commentator, | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Patricia McBride, and the newspaper editor, Jim Flanagan... Yesterday | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
was a red letter day for thousands of Primary 7 children in Northern | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
Ireland as the results of the transfer tests were published. It's | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
the fifth year of the unregulated transfer procedure and an agreed | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
transfer mechanism seems as far off as ever. Meanwhile, the BBC has | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
learned that the parents of Primary 6 pupils will receive a leaflet | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
advising them to report any school that's preparing children for the | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
tests. With me now are the DUP's Mervyn Storey, who chairs Stormont's | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
Education Committee, and Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard, who sits on the | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
committee... Welcome to the programme. How concerned are you at | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
this latest turn of events with this publication that Primary 6 pupils | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
are getting repaired? The Department and the Minister or not facing up to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
realities and using the circumstances of the situation to | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
create more uncertainty and more concerned. The facts are simple. The | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
majority of parents still choosing to have an unregulated system. It is | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
not ideal and there needs to be an agreement as to how we move forward, | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
but in the absence of their being an agreed position, organisations have | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
stepped into the frame and provided a process whereby the transition | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
from primary to post primary can still continue to be based on | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
academic assessment and I think that we need to have that as a debate. If | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
we look at what happened in England when they allegedly moved away from | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
transfer, it ended up becoming a system that was based on social | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
issues, the price of houses, how wealthy your parents were, as | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
opposed to the real core issue which is about ensuring transfers on the | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
basis of educational merit. I want to talk to you about this booklet. | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
Chris Hazzard. This booklet that the department's sending out to parents | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
is an attempt to 'up the ante', presumably? I did not think so. They | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
are guidelines which have been set down for transfer. We have a | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
situation where there is a common curriculum. Every school teaches the | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
exact same curriculum. You could have a selective grammar school | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
teaching its children one curriculum and across the road they are doing | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
exactly the same thing. We have the same curriculum, there is no need to | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
go through the transfer process. Some pupils may choose one school | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
over another and you have to find a way of determining which killed a go | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
too. Because a parent is forced to put their child through an exam, it | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
is not the same as indoor CNET. I think the leaders of the schools | :03:55. | :04:05. | |
have to face the music. They need to explain the rationale for selective | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
tests. We have the common curriculum, there is no need for | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
selection. What is the reason? We have lots of grammar schools which | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
are effectively comprehensives -- comprehensives. It is called | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
parental choice. It is not lots of grammar schools, it is a small | :04:30. | :04:40. | |
number. Parents were told by the then Education Minister that going | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
down this road would be a legal minefield. She was wrong and she | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
ended up in court. Parents make choices. Those choices are about | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
ensuring that they have the ability and the right to choose a school | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
which they believe is appropriate for their child. Do I believe that | :04:58. | :05:07. | |
it is grammar schools that are given a good education? That is not the | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
case. That is what it looks like to a lot of people. It is about | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
parental choice. Parents choose to have their children educated in | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
Catholic schools, that is their choice. This is not a sectarian | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
debate. The Catholic bishops have failed miserably to convince the | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
majority of Catholic grammar schools to move away from using academic | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
criteria. What is wrong with parental choice? It is not about | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
parental choice. He has demonstrated the complete failure of unionism to | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
tackle this. They have failed to name one benefit to this exam. There | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
are none. These schools, they cannot name one single educational | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
benefit. We have three Executive parties who are opposed to this. | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
This is not the Sinn Fein ideal. We have the trade union movement | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
opposed, we have the OECD and a growing number of Protestant | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
elements speaking against this. The Catholic bishops have said they are | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
opposed to selection. The Catholic principals are still in this. They | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
are calling for a harder line to implement this. In the meantime, the | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
principles of many Catholic grammar schools are not heeding what the | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
bishops say is the policy of the Catholic Church. They have to stand | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
up and say that this is the Russell Mall. They are failing to do that. | :06:49. | :07:02. | |
-- rationale. Why would you deny the privilege that you have to other | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
parents? You said it was elitism. You were able to value and benefit | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
as a result of having that education, but now you take the | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
position that somehow it is unfair for other parents and other young | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
people to have that. You said it is not about choosing the school, you | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
are making the argument for grammar schools. We get into the position | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
that there is a contradiction in that it is wrong to select according | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
to Chris and others children at 11 on the basis of the test, but when | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
it comes, the same cue ball and they are 16, the test that we set for | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
that child and the test we set for the school is that the school must | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
have five GCSEs at the top grade and if they do not attain that, Chris's | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
Minister sends in the Inspectorate on the basis and that school is | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
deemed to be a failure. If it is a common curriculum, name one benefit | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
of attending a grammar school over a secondary school, where the teaching | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
of the same subjects is the same, why should we continue to have | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
grammar schools? Parents have the right to make that choice. Wider | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
they want to choose that? -- why do they want. I had a different | :08:33. | :08:41. | |
provision in my area. My daughter was given in one school of very good | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
opportunity. I believe that was right that I have that opportunity. | :08:49. | :08:57. | |
Was it a gender issue? It can be. We are going to have grammar schools in | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
the future, they will not go away. We need to have a discussion around | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
how we make the transition from primary to post primary as seamless | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
as possible. Do you accept that grammar schools will not go away? I | :09:12. | :09:22. | |
accept that. I went to a grammar school. The question is about | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
admittance. I want all children to have the chance to go to a grammar | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
school, not a select school. Here is a question, what is a grammar school | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
in 2014 when the teacher exactly the same curriculum as other schools? -- | :09:40. | :09:48. | |
when they teach. We make a fallacy that we believe that all our | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
children are identical, they are different. It is a one size fits all | :09:52. | :10:02. | |
tests. GCSEs are the same. There are young people who will not attain the | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
top grades, but yet they will be successful in a school which is best | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
suited to meet their educational needs. Thank you. Thank you both. | :10:12. | :10:21. | |
And joining us to discuss that are the editor of the Ballymena | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
Guardian, Jim Flanagan, and the commentator, Patricia MacBride. | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
There is no great meeting of minds. What do you think the way forward | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
needs to be? The grammar schools have done a fabulous public | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
relations job by creating this scenario that the children are going | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
to get a better education because they go to a grammar school, when in | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
reality they will learn the same curriculum as at a mentor named | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
school. The issue around the transfer test, what we are doing | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
with children, we are not selecting them, we are teaching them how to do | :11:00. | :11:07. | |
a test -- maintained school. It is not a true measure of their academic | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
ability. I am a fan of completely integrated education. Integrating in | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
terms of children of all faiths. We are a long way from that. That is | :11:22. | :11:30. | |
real life. That is what we need to prepare people for. The life they | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
will face when they go out into the workplace, when they meet people | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
from all faiths and of all levels of intelligence. Let us truly integrate | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
that. There is political paralysis over this. Parents are exasperated. | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
They would like our politicians to sort this out. Parents vote with | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
their feet and you cannot get away from the fact that by and large, | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
academic testing exists because there is support for it. If they did | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
not want their children to do it, they would not be there. All we get | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
is an agreement to disagree. All sides in this debate seem wedded to | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
their positions. We are not going anywhere. Next year, every child | :12:19. | :12:27. | |
doing GCSEs will set the unregulated tests. We have a whole generation of | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
children at the grammar school and doing that, . We have talked about | :12:33. | :12:42. | |
the problems, what needs to happen to move us forward so there is some | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
kind of political agreement on where we go from here? We now have a | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
document and advising parents on the processes. We see thousands of | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
children transferring from primary to post primary without the stress | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
of a test. We need to see those small minority of schools who | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
implement this test to tell us why. They educate 43% of the school | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
population. They have to be taken into the equation. We need a proper | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
discussion with the threats are removed, such as the guidance from | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
the department where people can have a discussion about the seamless | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
transition based on educational values, not on political ideology. | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
It will be intriguing to see how things unfold. Thank you both for | :13:33. | :13:42. | |
now. In a moment, the connection between Belfast's Shankill Road and | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
the Spanish Civil War, but first, a look back at the politics of the | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
last week in sixty seconds, with Gareth Gordon... The row over the | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
appointment of a new chief constable rumbles on with the Justice Minister | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
sensing a plot. It looks like it is more to do with the party that the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
Minister comes from and the significance of the decision. They | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
have it in from the Alliance Party? You could believe this. He opened a | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
door that should have been kept closed. Once he opened that door a | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
little bit, then the DUP and Sinn Fein came charging through. A fiery | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Stormont committee, an academic and the DUP fell out over an e-mail. | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
Your opposition to this clause is more because of your prejudices | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
against the DUP. It is nothing of the sort. At the play they could not | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
ban, it proves there is no such thing as bad publicity. Because of | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
this, we sold out. I do not like being told what I can go to and what | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
I cannot go to. Garth Gordon reporting. Yesterday in the loyalist | :14:53. | :15:03. | |
heartland of Belfast's Shankill Road, a plaque was unveiled in | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
honour of seven men from the area who fought for the International | :15:08. | :15:09. | |
Brigade against fascism in the Spanish Civil War. While it's well | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
known that men from nationalist areas of the city volunteered to | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
travel to Spain and confront Franco's forces, the story of these | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
men has gone largely untold. As we enter a period when centenaries of | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
major events like the outbreak of the First World War, the Easter | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
Rising and the Somme will be marked, could we discover more surprises | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
about our divided past? Joining me now is the community worker Jackie | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
Redpath who was at yesterday's ceremony on the Shankill, and the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
historian Eamon Phoenix... Thank you for joining us. Jackie, what impact | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
has this story, which has apparently been hidden, had on the Shankill? It | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
has not been known. It is beginning to come out. It is having a | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
significant impact. The Shankill seven as they are now being called, | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
their names were not known, apart from Harry McGrath because he has | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
two nephews still living in the area. As a result, the International | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
Brigades Commemoration Committee have uncovered the other six people. | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
It has struck a chord with people. The library in the Shankill was | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
packed. These men stepped up to the mark and went out. I called them the | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
few who went out to fight fascism. They were followed by the many in | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
the Second World War. It is important that we recognise them. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
Whether they were head and we did not know about it, it does not | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
matter, the point is, this was a surprise to you. I knew men from | :16:44. | :16:51. | |
both traditions had fought in the Spanish Civil War. The Protestant | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
rector in the area was killed, other men from County Tyrone and the Falls | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Road as well. People are recovering radical elements of the past. This | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
was very important. This was when fascism corrupted and it all opposed | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
democracy in Spain. Those men from Britain and America joined the | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
International Brigades and fought against fascism. It is important it | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
is remembered. People from a national background would have been | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
known to have fought for the International Brigades, but it is | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
worth making the point that there were Irish men fighting for Franco. | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
Socialists and republicans fought against Franco. You had about 500 | :17:41. | :17:50. | |
men who went to fight for what they thought was a Catholic Crusade. They | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
did not last long. These men are being remembered. It recalls along | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Protestant socialist tradition in working-class parts of Belfast until | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
the troubles. -- Troubles. That is an interesting point. We need to | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
recognise our history. It is important we do that. There has | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
always been that radical tradition in east Belfast and the Shankill | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
because it is about issues like you were talking about earlier, about | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
families. That is what concerns people. It is important that we | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
recognise the past, but more important that we learn from it. | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
What about the challenge of the other centenary is? That will be a | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
big issue. You are on the advisory panel for the Taoiseach. We have got | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
the Easter Rising, the Somme, plenty of room for controversy. This has | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
been handled well by community relations and local community | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
groups. We had a great series of lectures in Belfast remembering the | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
past. They have brought in principles which are being reflected | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
across the country in local events, drama has been introduced, a play on | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
the Somme. Sticking to the facts, looking at various perspectives and | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
there are surprises. We have the East Belfast loyalist who witnessed | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
the Easter Rising and kept a Gary. Things like this are cropping up. | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
They open them up to both communities -- kept a diary. | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
Centenary is have already taken place. -- centenary is. 30,000 | :19:45. | :19:53. | |
people, 10,000 people involved. These have been done well. I do not | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
see why that cannot be repeated. In the last few months, the UVF and the | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
Irish volunteers have been working together. That can happen. The | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
important thing is to remember, but learn. Jackie Redpath and Eamon | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
Phoenix thank you. Let's hear the final thoughts of my guests of the | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
day - Patricia McBride and Jim Flanagan... You have spent a lot of | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
time thinking about the past and how we deal with it. What was your view | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
of the commemoration on the Shankill yesterday? There was a very worthy | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
acknowledgement of the sacrifice of citizens of the Shankill community | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
who fought against fascism. Were I would like to see that go is to | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
perhaps look at that definition of republicanism. These were men who | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
fought on the republican side in the Spanish Civil War. It creates a | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
space to debate the nature of republicanism outside of an Irish | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
context. That could be something about learning from the past. We | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
look at the nature of what that means and how it has impacted on | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
communities, so it is a wider debate. Moving forward over the next | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
ten years or so, as we look at the nature of what that means and how it | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
has impacted on communities, so it is a wider debate. Moving forward | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
over the next ten years or so, as the market these events, we have | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
this opportunity to re-examine the history of the past in a | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
multidimensional way. Is this an interesting and important | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
contribution? The common to nominate is respect for the past. We need to | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
learn from our past. It takes an independently minded person to go | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
against what is perceived as the norm and fight for the other side, | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
as people would see it. Sometimes it is at great personal cost for | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
people. I think the key point is that we learn from the past and so | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
far, the commemorations have been held in a respectful fashion. I want | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
to touch on one thing. It is relevant. We had George Chittick | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
saying yesterday a word of warning to Protestants who go to learn | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
Irish, it is part of the republican agenda, that does not tie in with | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
what you were talking about. I think that he might need to re-examine the | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
history of his own organisation and look more deeply into the use of the | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
Irish language by his predecessor and continuing use on banners. What | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
do you think? Certain people did raise their eyebrows over those | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
remarks. There are banners with Irish on them. He needs to go and | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
put a bit of context to the whole thing. Thank you. That is it from | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
ours. Back to Not a complete denial! Hopefully a | :23:02. | :23:03. | |
Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on | :23:04. | :23:19. | |
the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill, and | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at, | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
policy and not government policy that the government policy elite | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
all the House of Commons stages. Sadly, to their discredit, Labour | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case. The | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people. | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going? | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run, | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd | :29:22. | :29:31. | |
once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning, | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
wonderful rainbows and sunshine. But we can detect the beginnings of a | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers, | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
turning in your direction, you are talking about the European | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is | :33:06. | :33:07. | |
not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting | :33:53. | :33:53. | |
back on range of areas, but we are getting | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us. | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months. | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet. | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :35:11. | :35:17. |