02/03/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


02/03/2014

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news. Andrew Neil interviews shadow education secretary Tristram Hunt and minister of state for skills Matthew Hancock on apprenticeships.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as

:00:41.:00:43.

Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his

:00:44.:00:47.

European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like

:00:48.:00:52.

he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram

:00:53.:00:54.

Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So

:00:55.:00:59.

what's the verdict - full marks, or must try harder? He joins us for the

:01:00.:01:05.

Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties

:01:06.:01:08.

are desperate to broaden their appeal. We'll look at some

:01:09.:01:09.

changes. And tightening household finances.

:01:10.:01:30.

And with me, as always, three journalists who'd make a clean sweep

:01:31.:01:34.

if they were handing out Oscars for political punditry in LA tonight.

:01:35.:01:39.

But just like poor old Leonardo DiCaprio they've never won so much

:01:40.:01:44.

as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan

:01:45.:01:47.

Ganesh. Instead of acceptance speeches they'll be tweeting faster

:01:48.:01:49.

than the tears roll down Gwyneth Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as

:01:50.:01:56.

luvvie as we get on this show. Events have been moving quickly in

:01:57.:02:00.

Ukraine this weekend. The interim government in Kiev has put the

:02:01.:02:03.

Ukrainian military on full combat alert after Russia's parliament

:02:04.:02:05.

rubber-stamped the deployment of Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine.

:02:06.:02:10.

Russian troops seem already to be in control of the mainly

:02:11.:02:12.

Russian-speaking Crimea region, where Russia has a massive naval

:02:13.:02:16.

base. President Obama told President Putin that Russia has flouted

:02:17.:02:19.

international law by sending in Russian troops but the Kremlin is

:02:20.:02:27.

taking no notice. This is now turning into the worst stand-off

:02:28.:02:29.

between Russia and the West since the conflict between Georgia and

:02:30.:02:31.

Russia in 2008, though nobody expects any kind of military

:02:32.:02:37.

response from the West. Foreign Secretary William Hague is on his

:02:38.:02:42.

way to Kiev this morning to show his support for the new government,

:02:43.:02:44.

though how long it will survive is another matter. We can speak to our

:02:45.:02:47.

correspondent David Stern, he's in Kiev.

:02:48.:02:56.

As things look from Kiev, can we take it they've lost Crimea, it is

:02:57.:03:01.

now in all essence under Russian control? Yes, well for the moment,

:03:02.:03:09.

Crimea is under Russian control. Russian troops in unmarked uniforms

:03:10.:03:14.

have moved throughout the peninsula taking up various positions, also at

:03:15.:03:22.

the Ismis which links Ukraine into Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon

:03:23.:03:28.

troops there. Three units have been captured according to a top

:03:29.:03:34.

officials. We can say at the moment Russia controls the peninsula. It

:03:35.:03:38.

should also be said, also they have the support of the ethnic Russian

:03:39.:03:43.

population. The ethnic Russians make up the majority of the population.

:03:44.:03:47.

They are also not entirely in control because there are other

:03:48.:03:54.

groups, namely the Tatar as and the ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at

:03:55.:03:59.

least at the moment tacitly resisting. We'll see what they'll

:04:00.:04:05.

start to do in the coming days. David, I'm putting up some pictures

:04:06.:04:11.

showing Russian troops digging in on the border between Crimea and

:04:12.:04:16.

Ukraine. I get the sense that is just for show. There is, I would

:04:17.:04:21.

assume, no possibility that the Ukrainians could attempt to retake

:04:22.:04:28.

Crimea by military force? It seems that the Ukrainians are weighing

:04:29.:04:33.

their options right now. Their options are very limited. Any

:04:34.:04:38.

head-to-head conflict with Russia would probably work against the

:04:39.:04:42.

Ukrainians. They seem to be taking more of a long-term gain. They are

:04:43.:04:47.

waiting for the figs's first move. They are trying not to create any

:04:48.:04:52.

excuse that the Russians can stage an even larger incursion into Crimea

:04:53.:04:57.

or elsewhere, for that matter. They also seem to be trying to get

:04:58.:05:03.

international support. It should be said, this is a new Government. It

:05:04.:05:05.

has only been installed this week. They are trying to gain their

:05:06.:05:08.

footing. This is a major crisis. They have to count on the loyalty of

:05:09.:05:15.

the army they might have some resistance from solders from the

:05:16.:05:19.

eastern part of the country who are Russian speaking. They probably

:05:20.:05:22.

could count on Ukrainian speakers and people from the centre and west

:05:23.:05:27.

of the country as well as regular Ukrainians. A lot of people are

:05:28.:05:31.

ready to fight to defend Ukrainian Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin

:05:32.:05:38.

go next? They have Crimea to all intents and purposes. There's a weak

:05:39.:05:44.

Government in Kiev. Do they move to the eastern side of Ukraine which is

:05:45.:05:47.

largely Russian speaking and there's already been some unrest there?

:05:48.:05:53.

That's the big question, that's what everybody's really asking now. Where

:05:54.:05:57.

does this go from here? We've had some unrest in the eastern part of

:05:58.:06:01.

the country. There have been demonstrations and clashes. More

:06:02.:06:06.

ominously, there have been noises from the Kremlin they might actually

:06:07.:06:13.

move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in his conversation with Barack Obama

:06:14.:06:17.

said they might protect their interests there. It should be said,

:06:18.:06:21.

if they do expand, in fact, they've also said they are dead against the

:06:22.:06:28.

new Government seeing it as illegitimate and fascist. It does

:06:29.:06:35.

contain risks. They will have to deal with international reactions.

:06:36.:06:38.

America said there will be a deep reaction to this and it will affect

:06:39.:06:43.

Russia's relations with Ukraine and the international community. They

:06:44.:06:47.

have to deal with the reaction in Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians

:06:48.:06:52.

behind this new interim Government. Once Russia moves in, they will be

:06:53.:07:00.

seen as an invading force. It plays on historical feelings of Russia

:07:01.:07:07.

being an imperial force. Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits

:07:08.:07:13.

on the security Security and Intelligence Committee in the House

:07:14.:07:15.

of Commons. What should the western response be to these events? I can

:07:16.:07:21.

understand why William Hague is going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side

:07:22.:07:30.

by side whizz whoever's in charge. They need to CEOP sit numbers and

:07:31.:07:35.

also President Putin. The truth is we are all co significant fatries to

:07:36.:07:43.

the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20 years ago which was designed to

:07:44.:07:51.

maintain the integrity of the Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to

:07:52.:07:55.

be a discussion along those lines. The difficulty is President Putin

:07:56.:08:00.

has watched events in recent months, in relation to Syria, it is palpable

:08:01.:08:07.

President Obama's focus of attention ask the other side of the Pacific

:08:08.:08:12.

rather than the Atlantic. The vote in the House of Commons, I was very

:08:13.:08:16.

much against the idea of military action or providing weapons to the

:08:17.:08:21.

free Syrian army. My worry is, events proved this, the majority of

:08:22.:08:27.

the other options toed as sad are rather worse. It is clear now we are

:08:28.:08:32.

in a constitutional mess in this country. We cannot even contemplate

:08:33.:08:37.

military action without a parliamentary vote that moves

:08:38.:08:40.

against quick reaction that is required from the executive or, I

:08:41.:08:45.

suspect, there will be very little appetite for any military action

:08:46.:08:53.

from the West over in Ukraine. We are corn tours under the agreement

:08:54.:08:58.

of less than 20 years ago. We may be but we've guaranteed an agreement

:08:59.:09:01.

which it is clear we haven't the power to enforce. You wrote this

:09:02.:09:06.

morning, Britain is a diminished voice. Clams Iley navigating the

:09:07.:09:12.

Syrian conflict we relick wished decisions to the whims of

:09:13.:09:16.

parliamentary approval. That may or may not be but the Kremlin's not

:09:17.:09:24.

watching how we voted on the Syrian issue? In relation to Syria, it was

:09:25.:09:29.

where is the western resolve here. The truth ask Putin's position is

:09:30.:09:35.

considerably less strong. In diplomatic terms. He had a victory

:09:36.:09:40.

in Syria in relation to chemical weapons and in relation to the

:09:41.:09:45.

West's relationship with Iran. Putin is a vital inter locking figure. In

:09:46.:09:53.

demographic and economic terms, Russia's in very deep trouble. The

:09:54.:09:57.

oil price started to fall to any degree, oil and gas price, given the

:09:58.:10:03.

importance of mineral wealth and exports for the Russian economy,

:10:04.:10:08.

Putin would be in a lot of trouble. It requires an engagement from the

:10:09.:10:15.

EU and the EU are intending to look at their internal economic problems

:10:16.:10:18.

and will be smarting from the failure within a matter of hours of

:10:19.:10:23.

the deal they tried to broker only nine days' ago.

:10:24.:10:28.

You say if Mr Putin decides to increase the stakes and moves into

:10:29.:10:31.

the east, takes over the whole place, our Government, you say, will

:10:32.:10:37.

find itself with another colossal international headache. Some people

:10:38.:10:41.

watching this will be thinking, what's it got to do with us? It's a

:10:42.:10:46.

long way away from Britain. We haven't a dog in this fight? We have

:10:47.:10:51.

in this regard for the longer term here. I think if there were to be

:10:52.:10:57.

some military action in Ukraine, the sense of Russia taking over, it

:10:58.:11:01.

could have a major impact on the global economy in very quick order.

:11:02.:11:06.

You should not deny that. There will be move to have sanctions against

:11:07.:11:10.

Russia. The escalation of that will be difficult. The other fact is

:11:11.:11:17.

looking at our internal affairs and reform, partners, the Baltic states,

:11:18.:11:24.

Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, they will be looking at a resurgent

:11:25.:11:28.

Russia now and think they'll need to hold as tightly as possible to the

:11:29.:11:34.

EU institutions and the power of Germany at the centre of that. This

:11:35.:11:41.

whole appetite for the reforms politically and economically will be

:11:42.:11:46.

closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has

:11:47.:11:52.

longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you.

:11:53.:12:01.

We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is

:12:02.:12:05.

there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the

:12:06.:12:12.

moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been

:12:13.:12:18.

per performed by Russian forces. It is now a matter of coordinating a

:12:19.:12:24.

plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will

:12:25.:12:30.

our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to

:12:31.:12:35.

think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts

:12:36.:12:40.

energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the

:12:41.:12:43.

important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a

:12:44.:12:48.

different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign

:12:49.:12:53.

exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of

:12:54.:12:58.

money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast.

:12:59.:13:03.

There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea

:13:04.:13:08.

semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the

:13:09.:13:11.

reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does

:13:12.:13:16.

Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this

:13:17.:13:21.

carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of

:13:22.:13:28.

Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at

:13:29.:13:32.

a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the

:13:33.:13:36.

Ukrainian Government. Of course, so far, there hasn't been a coherent

:13:37.:13:41.

response. The really worrying thing about recent months, not just recent

:13:42.:13:45.

days, are the indications that the future of Ukraine as a unitary state

:13:46.:13:52.

is now in doubt. Look at it from the other side of the equation. The

:13:53.:13:59.

President when faced with demonstrations, many extremists, he

:14:00.:14:03.

was unable to deal with that. Now we have the other side, if you like,

:14:04.:14:08.

the Russian speakers, the other side of the fight, Russian nationalists

:14:09.:14:13.

showing they can get away with unilateral action more or less with

:14:14.:14:21.

impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have been sacked. I think there are

:14:22.:14:25.

considerable questions now as to whether Ukraine is falling apart

:14:26.:14:33.

and, if that happens, we're into a Yugoslav-type situation which will

:14:34.:14:35.

continue posing very serious questions for the EU and NATO for

:14:36.:14:43.

months or years to come. So, Janan, Ukraine is over? Where the west to

:14:44.:14:51.

concede to the Russian in Crimea, it would perversely be a net loss for

:14:52.:14:57.

Russia. You'd assume the rest of Ukraine would become an un

:14:58.:15:02.

unambiguously a member of the the EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a

:15:03.:15:12.

Russian dream of Eurasion dream, they will look at Putin's behaviour

:15:13.:15:15.

and is a, no, thanks, we'll head towards the EU. It is a short-term

:15:16.:15:20.

victory for Putin which backfires on his broader goals in Well, many

:15:21.:15:34.

people said if he grabs Crimea, he loses Ukraine, which is your point.

:15:35.:15:40.

We have seen violent demonstrations in the big eastern cities in Ukraine

:15:41.:15:45.

yesterday. People taking control of certain buildings. The risk is there

:15:46.:15:50.

of spreading beyond Crimea. I think the lack of any unified or visible

:15:51.:15:54.

response from Ukrainian armed forces... They allowed Russian

:15:55.:15:58.

troops to walk into the bases in Crimea. They have supposedly gone on

:15:59.:16:02.

red alert but they have done absolutely nothing. We don't see

:16:03.:16:06.

them deploying from barracks. There are serious questions about whether

:16:07.:16:09.

they would just fall apart. Putin is not going to let them split away. I

:16:10.:16:18.

would have thought he would like the entire Ukraine to come into the

:16:19.:16:22.

Russian ambit. Barack Obama is saying this will not stand. He has a

:16:23.:16:27.

90 minute conversation with Vladimir Putin and what is his response? I am

:16:28.:16:32.

suspending my cooperation in the run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is

:16:33.:16:39.

the EU doing? Nothing. There is nothing they can do and Putin knows

:16:40.:16:43.

there are a series of lines that he is able to cross and get away with

:16:44.:16:48.

it. Why should Berlin, London, Washington be surprised by the

:16:49.:16:54.

strength of Vladimir Putin's reaction? It was never going to let

:16:55.:16:59.

Ukraine just fall into the arms of the EU. That is the interesting

:17:00.:17:05.

point. And who does he listen to? Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela

:17:06.:17:08.

Merkel because she is the only person who can talk to him and I

:17:09.:17:12.

find that response worrying. We need to speak with a united voice but

:17:13.:17:16.

nobody knows what we should be saying. Military intervention is out

:17:17.:17:20.

for the West so we go to economic sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin

:17:21.:17:26.

just say, oh, you want sanctions? I have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it

:17:27.:17:32.

is move and countermove, and it is difficult to predict where it will

:17:33.:17:35.

end up. In all these meetings that are being held, they do think a step

:17:36.:17:41.

or two ahead and try and set out clear lines. Thank you for coming in

:17:42.:18:12.

this morning. Labour has been struggling since

:18:13.:18:15.

2010 to decide exactly how to take education secretary Michael Gove,

:18:16.:18:17.

one of the boldest reformers of the coalition and most divisive figures.

:18:18.:18:19.

Ed Miliband appointed TV historian Tristram Hunt and many thought

:18:20.:18:21.

Labour had found the man to teach Michael Gove a lesson. But how much

:18:22.:18:24.

do we really know about the party's plans for England's schools? Wales,

:18:25.:18:27.

Scotland and Northern Ireland are a devolved matter. Child has been back

:18:28.:18:29.

to school to find out. A politician once told me, do you know why

:18:30.:18:31.

education secretaries changed schools? Because they can. Michael

:18:32.:18:33.

Gove might dispute the motive but he is changing schools, like this one.

:18:34.:18:36.

The changes he is ringing in our encouraging them to be academies,

:18:37.:18:38.

free from local authorities to control their own budgets, ushering

:18:39.:18:40.

in free schools, focusing on toughening exams and making them the

:18:41.:18:42.

core of the curriculum with less coursework, and offering heads more

:18:43.:18:46.

discretion on tougher discipline. And he is in a hurry to put all this

:18:47.:18:52.

in place. But has that shut out any chance for a Labour Government to

:18:53.:18:56.

change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions?

:18:57.:19:01.

Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that

:19:02.:19:06.

would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010,

:19:07.:19:10.

Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning

:19:11.:19:13.

previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested

:19:14.:19:17.

teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government,

:19:18.:19:21.

allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to

:19:22.:19:25.

others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified

:19:26.:19:29.

teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked

:19:30.:19:39.

work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's

:19:40.:19:45.

education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some

:19:46.:19:49.

clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the

:19:50.:19:54.

feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the

:19:55.:19:57.

current Government on types of schools and the way education should

:19:58.:20:02.

proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different

:20:03.:20:08.

about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open

:20:09.:20:13.

and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are

:20:14.:20:18.

a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt

:20:19.:20:22.

as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge our

:20:23.:20:26.

agenda, which I think people will be really interested in. The art of

:20:27.:20:32.

Government, of course, is to balance competing pictures of policy, even

:20:33.:20:37.

inside your own party. It is fair to say that if Labour reflects and

:20:38.:20:41.

draws its own visions of a shared agenda, it might have to square that

:20:42.:20:45.

idea with teaching unions, who are already unhappy with the pace and

:20:46.:20:49.

tone of change that the Government had sketched out. What we sincerely

:20:50.:20:54.

hope is that if Labour were to form the next Government, that they would

:20:55.:20:58.

look at a serious review of accountability measures. That is

:20:59.:21:21.

really what ways on teachers every single day. Actually they would look

:21:22.:21:23.

at restoring the possibility, for example, of local councillors to be

:21:24.:21:25.

able to open schools. That seems eminently sensible. If they are not

:21:26.:21:28.

going to move back from the free schools and academies programme, at

:21:29.:21:30.

the very least they need to say that academy chains will be inspected

:21:31.:21:33.

because at the moment they are not. Labour have balls in the air on

:21:34.:21:35.

education and are still throwing around precise policy detail. There

:21:36.:21:37.

are areas that they could grab hold of and seize possession. A focus on

:21:38.:21:40.

the rounding of the people, developing character, the impact of

:21:41.:21:42.

digitalisation on the classroom. Also the role and handling of

:21:43.:21:45.

teachers in the system and the interdependence of schools. That is

:21:46.:21:49.

all still to play for. Currently I think the difference between the

:21:50.:21:53.

parties is that the coalition policies, while we do not agree with

:21:54.:21:58.

all of them, are clear and explicit, and Labour's policies are yet to be

:21:59.:22:02.

formulated in a way that everybody can understand clearly. I don't

:22:03.:22:09.

think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband will want to pick unnecessary fights

:22:10.:22:16.

before the election. I think we will have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness

:22:17.:22:22.

around the whole area of policy but after the election there will be

:22:23.:22:28.

grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But if fuzzy policy before the election

:22:29.:22:33.

is the lesson plan, it does rather risk interested voters being left in

:22:34.:22:37.

the dark. Tristram Hunt joins me now for the

:22:38.:22:47.

Sunday interview. Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael

:22:48.:22:53.

Gove's school reforms would you repeal? We are not interested in

:22:54.:22:57.

throwing a change for the sake of it. When I go round schools,

:22:58.:23:00.

teachers have been through very aggressive changes in the last three

:23:01.:23:04.

years, so when it comes to some of the curriculum reforms we have seen,

:23:05.:23:07.

we are not interested in changing those for the sake of it. Where we

:23:08.:23:12.

are interested in making change is having a focus on technical and

:23:13.:23:16.

vocational education, making sure that the forgotten 15% is properly

:23:17.:23:21.

addressed in our education system. What we saw in your package was an

:23:22.:23:25.

interesting description of how we have seen structural reforms in the

:23:26.:23:28.

names of schools. Academies, free schools, all the rest of it.

:23:29.:23:32.

International evidence is clear that it is the quality of leadership of

:23:33.:23:35.

the headteachers and the quality of teaching in the classroom that

:23:36.:23:39.

transforms the prospects of young people. Instead of tinkering around

:23:40.:23:44.

the names of schools, we focus on teacher quality. Viewers will be

:23:45.:23:47.

shocked to note that this Government approves of unqualified teachers in

:23:48.:24:04.

the classroom. We want to have fully qualified, passionate, motivated

:24:05.:24:05.

teachers in the classroom. It sounds like you might not repeal anything.

:24:06.:24:08.

You might build on it and you might go in a different direction, with

:24:09.:24:10.

more emphasis on technological education but no major repeal of the

:24:11.:24:13.

reforms of Michael Gove? I don't think you want to waste energy on

:24:14.:24:17.

undoing reforms. In certain situations they build on Labour

:24:18.:24:21.

Party policy. We introduced the sponsored academy programmes and we

:24:22.:24:26.

began the Teach First programmes, and we began the London challenge

:24:27.:24:32.

which transformed the educational prospects of children in London. We

:24:33.:24:35.

want to roll that out across the country. You have said there will be

:24:36.:24:39.

no more free schools, which Michael Gove introduced, but you will allow

:24:40.:24:44.

parents let academies, which just means free schools by a different

:24:45.:24:53.

name. No, because they will be in certain areas. We want to create new

:24:54.:24:57.

schools with parents. What we have at the moment is a destructive and

:24:58.:25:01.

market-driven approach to education. I was in Stroud on

:25:02.:25:04.

Thursday and plans for a big new school, in an area with surplus

:25:05.:25:10.

places, threatened to destroy the viability of local, rural schools.

:25:11.:25:14.

We want schools to work together in a network of partnership and

:25:15.:25:17.

challenge, rather than this destructive market-driven approach.

:25:18.:25:21.

You say that, but your version of free schools, I think, would only be

:25:22.:25:47.

allowed where there is a shortage of places. That means that where there

:25:48.:25:49.

is an excess of bad schools, parents will have no choice. They still have

:25:50.:25:52.

to send their kids to bad schools. And we have to transform bad schools

:25:53.:25:55.

and that was always the Labour way in Government. At the moment we just

:25:56.:25:58.

have an insertion of new schools. Schools currently underperforming

:25:59.:25:59.

are now underperforming even more. Children only have one chance at

:26:00.:26:02.

education. What about their time in school? Our focus is on the

:26:03.:26:04.

leadership of the headteacher and having quality teachers in the

:26:05.:26:06.

classroom. So they cannot set up new better schools and they have to go

:26:07.:26:09.

to the bad schools. Tony Blair said it should be easier for parents to

:26:10.:26:12.

set up new schools where they are dissatisfied with existing schools.

:26:13.:26:15.

You are not saying that. Even where they are dissatisfied with existing

:26:16.:26:18.

schools, they cannot set up free schools and you are reneging on

:26:19.:26:24.

that. We live in difficult economic circumstances where we have got to

:26:25.:26:28.

focus public finances on the areas of absolute need. We need 250,000

:26:29.:26:35.

new school places. 150,000 in London alone. We have to focus on building

:26:36.:26:38.

new schools and where we have to put them. And secondly... Absolutely

:26:39.:26:47.

not. Focusing on those schools. Making sure we turned them around,

:26:48.:26:52.

just as we did in Government. We have had a remarkable degree of

:26:53.:26:55.

waste under the free school programme. If you think of the free

:26:56.:26:59.

school in Derby, the Academy in Bradford, and as we saw in the

:27:00.:27:04.

Telegraph on Friday, the free schools in Suffolk, a great deal of

:27:05.:27:08.

waste of public money on underperforming free schools. That

:27:09.:27:11.

is not the Labour way. We focus on making sure that kids in schools at

:27:12.:27:15.

the moment get the best possible education. Except that in your own

:27:16.:27:22.

backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of secondary school pupils attend a

:27:23.:27:28.

good or outstanding school. 148 out of 150 of the worst performing local

:27:29.:27:33.

authorities and it is Labour-controlled. Still terrible

:27:34.:27:36.

schools and yet you say parents should not have the freedom to start

:27:37.:27:42.

a better school. We have great schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well.

:27:43.:27:46.

We face challenges, just as Wolverhampton does and the Isle of

:27:47.:27:50.

Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like large parts of the country. What is

:27:51.:27:55.

the solution to that? Making sure we share excellence among the existing

:27:56.:27:59.

schools and making sure we have quality leadership in schools. Those

:28:00.:28:03.

schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all academies. It is not a question only

:28:04.:28:07.

of structure but of leadership. It is also a question of going back to

:28:08.:28:10.

the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids are school

:28:11.:28:14.

ready when they get to school. To make sure they are reading to their

:28:15.:28:49.

children in the evening. We can't put it all on teachers. Parents have

:28:50.:28:51.

responsibilities. I understand that but you have told me Labour's policy

:28:52.:28:54.

would not be to set up new schools which parents hope will be better.

:28:55.:28:57.

Parents continue to send their kids to bad schools in areas like Stoke.

:28:58.:29:00.

Labour has had plenty of time to sort out these schools in Stoke and

:29:01.:29:02.

they are still among the worst performing in the country. You are

:29:03.:29:04.

condemning these parents to having to send their kids to bad schools.

:29:05.:29:07.

Where we have seen the sett ing up of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that

:29:08.:29:10.

is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a

:29:11.:29:13.

successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on

:29:14.:29:15.

Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works

:29:16.:29:18.

is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing

:29:19.:29:20.

comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get

:29:21.:29:23.

into it. You can turn around schools with the right leadership,

:29:24.:29:24.

passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the

:29:25.:29:29.

learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour

:29:30.:29:35.

Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new

:29:36.:29:37.

school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the

:29:38.:29:40.

school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into

:29:41.:29:42.

it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and

:29:43.:29:44.

motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of

:29:45.:29:47.

their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids

:29:48.:29:50.

from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but

:29:51.:29:53.

only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right

:29:54.:29:56.

but only four got to the two leading universities. Traditionally young

:29:57.:30:02.

people could leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries,

:30:03.:30:06.

the steel industry, the traditionally young people could

:30:07.:30:09.

leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel

:30:10.:30:15.

industry, the but also to get an apprenticeship at Jaguar Land

:30:16.:30:20.

Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten

:30:21.:30:26.

15%, which we have just not seen from this Government, focusing on

:30:27.:30:29.

technical and vocational pathways, is fundamental to Your headmaster

:30:30.:30:50.

was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good teacher? He He never taught me.

:30:51.:30:58.

Over 90% of teeners in the private sector are qualified. They look for

:30:59.:31:03.

not simply teachers with qualified teacher status. Teachers with MAs.

:31:04.:31:08.

Teachers who are improving them cephalitis. Becoming better

:31:09.:31:10.

educators. cephalitis. Becoming better

:31:11.:31:20.

teaching. You were taught by unqualified teachers. Your parents

:31:21.:31:24.

paid over ?15,000 a year for you being taught by unqualified

:31:25.:31:28.

teachers. Why did you make such a big deal of it? Because we've seen

:31:29.:31:32.

right around the world those education systems which focus on

:31:33.:31:38.

having the most qualified teachers perform the best. It cannot be right

:31:39.:31:44.

that anyone can simply turn up, as at the moment, have schools at

:31:45.:31:49.

veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want

:31:50.:31:54.

the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the

:31:55.:32:00.

passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments

:32:01.:32:06.

about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a

:32:07.:32:10.

great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from

:32:11.:32:16.

the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the

:32:17.:32:19.

headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school

:32:20.:32:41.

of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed

:32:42.:32:47.

unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely

:32:48.:32:52.

speak English. That is because if you have unqualified teachers you

:32:53.:32:56.

end up with a dangerous situation. The problem with that school was not

:32:57.:33:00.

unqualified teachers. People were running that school who were unfit

:33:01.:33:07.

to run a school. We have an issue about discipline and behaviour

:33:08.:33:10.

management in some of our schools. Some of the skills teachers gain

:33:11.:33:14.

through qualifications and learning is how to manage classes and get the

:33:15.:33:19.

best out of kids at every stage. It doesn't end with a qualified teacher

:33:20.:33:23.

status. That's just the beginning. We want our teachers to have

:33:24.:33:28.

continue it will development. It is not good enough to have your initial

:33:29.:33:33.

teacher trainingaged work through your career for 30 years. You need

:33:34.:33:39.

continual learning. Learning how to deal with digital technology.

:33:40.:33:44.

Refresh your subject knowledge. As an historian I help teachers. You've

:33:45.:33:49.

taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I

:33:50.:33:55.

give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't

:33:56.:34:01.

blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers?

:34:02.:34:07.

We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they

:34:08.:34:14.

are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge

:34:15.:34:20.

they should not be in the classroom. If a free school or academy hired a

:34:21.:34:27.

teach thinking they are a great teacher but unqualified, if they are

:34:28.:34:31.

then forced by you to fire them, they will be in breach of the law.

:34:32.:34:36.

They are being urged by us to make sure they have qualified teacher

:34:37.:34:40.

status. We've lots of unqualified teachers as long as they are on the

:34:41.:34:44.

pathway to making sure they are qualified. But if they say they

:34:45.:34:49.

don't want to do this, will you fire them? It is not an unreasonable

:34:50.:34:53.

suggestion is that the teachers in charge of our young people have

:34:54.:34:57.

qualifications to teach and inspire our young people particularly when

:34:58.:35:03.

we face global competition from Shanghai, Korea and so

:35:04.:35:12.

we face global competition from teacher of Brighton college finds

:35:13.:35:12.

incredibly inspeechational teachers who don't' necessarily have a

:35:13.:35:16.

teaching qualifications. It is a different skill to teach ten young

:35:17.:35:24.

nice boys and girls in Brighton to teaches 20 or 30 quids with

:35:25.:35:28.

challenging circumstances, special educational needs, different

:35:29.:35:32.

ability. Being a teacher at Brighton college is an easy gig in comparison

:35:33.:35:37.

to other schools. Where we want teachers to have a capacity to teach

:35:38.:35:43.

properly. Do you think Tristram could ever lead the Labour Party? I

:35:44.:35:51.

think Ed is a great leader, the reforms yesterday were a real sign

:35:52.:35:55.

for his leadership. And the fact David Owen, the man with a

:35:56.:35:58.

pre-history with our party is back with us. It is great. Even Gideon

:35:59.:36:04.

had to change his name to George. Have you thought of switching to

:36:05.:36:13.

Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony! Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot.

:36:14.:36:18.

I love the Labour because it accepts everybody from me to Len McCluskey.

:36:19.:36:22.

We are a big, broad happy family on our way to Government. Thank you

:36:23.:36:26.

very much. You're watching The Sunday Politics.

:36:27.:36:32.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for Sunday

:36:33.:36:37.

politics Scotland. In over 20 minutes I'll

:36:38.:36:38.

On-the-runHello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:36:39.:36:52.

The row over 'On The Runs', that saw the First Minister threaten to step

:36:53.:36:55.

down, continues with claim and counter claim about who knew what

:36:56.:36:59.

and when. The Justice Minister, David Ford, joins us live to discuss

:37:00.:37:02.

the fall-out. Also today, as a bid is made in the

:37:03.:37:05.

House Of Lords to extend libel reform to Northern Ireland, we hear

:37:06.:37:09.

from both sides of the legal debate. And, joining me to share their

:37:10.:37:12.

thoughts on those issues and more, my guests today are Newton Emerson

:37:13.:37:14.

and Cathy Gormley-Heenan. In the end, it was a case of crisis

:37:15.:37:25.

averted, but at one point this week the collapse of the Assembly looked

:37:26.:37:28.

like it might just happen - again. The political storm blew up in the

:37:29.:37:32.

wake of the collapse of the John Downey court case and the light the

:37:33.:37:35.

court judgement shed on secret letters issued to IRA 'on-the-runs'.

:37:36.:37:39.

As the blame game continues, where has this past turbulent week left

:37:40.:37:42.

the political process and the ongoing attempts to resolve our

:37:43.:37:46.

troubled past? Joining me now is the Justice Minister, David Ford. Thank

:37:47.:37:56.

you for joining us. First of all, a development today. Peter Hain wrote

:37:57.:38:01.

in the Sunday Telegraph and has called for the soldiers involved in

:38:02.:38:05.

the Bloody Sunday killings not to be prosecuted. Do you agree?

:38:06.:38:11.

It almost looks like playing a part in one pseudo- amnesty, he is now

:38:12.:38:19.

try to play a part in another. When the Attorney General suggested we

:38:20.:38:23.

should draw a line under the past it was almost universally rejected.

:38:24.:38:27.

There are difficulties with evidence when you go back that far but it

:38:28.:38:31.

does not mean we should abandon the opportunity if there is one in some

:38:32.:38:35.

cases. There is an anomaly in the system and does that not need to be

:38:36.:38:40.

addressed? The system is full of anomalies,

:38:41.:38:46.

mostly because of the way the British government was making side

:38:47.:38:50.

deals. That is the reality and we are living with those anomalies as

:38:51.:38:54.

people like we try to get the justice system to work properly

:38:55.:38:58.

today. You can understand why Unionists are

:38:59.:39:08.

pretty angry. How people potentially involved in violent crime are given

:39:09.:39:13.

a potentially "get out free card" as they describe it?

:39:14.:39:20.

But the fact that somebody was on duty in one case doesn't mean they

:39:21.:39:30.

did not commit a crime. That is the way very highest standards should be

:39:31.:39:33.

held for those who are responsible as agents of the state. We have to

:39:34.:39:37.

look at the practical realities as to what may not be possible without

:39:38.:39:41.

saying we draw a line and effectively grant an amnesty without

:39:42.:39:46.

an attempt to get justice where it is possible. What would your advice

:39:47.:39:52.

to Peter Hain be? I am not sure his advice is being

:39:53.:39:56.

particularly well received. Perhaps the best thing he could do is to

:39:57.:40:00.

give a full account of everything he did to the enquiry.

:40:01.:40:05.

In the Sunday Times, Peter Robinson accused Peter Hain of misleading

:40:06.:40:11.

Parliament over the on-the-run letters in 2006 and 2007, but Peter

:40:12.:40:16.

Hain refuted that. When you look at what he said in Hansard, it makes

:40:17.:40:22.

for interesting reading, doesn't it? Some of the remarks appeared to be

:40:23.:40:27.

less than the complete truth. He said that he said it had to be

:40:28.:40:35.

addressed. I think he needs to examine his precise background and

:40:36.:40:37.

perhaps that is something the judge will do in the coming months.

:40:38.:40:46.

You got clarity on Thursday night, Friday morning that there are five

:40:47.:40:49.

"live" OTR cases currently in the system for consideration. Should

:40:50.:40:53.

they be stopped, as the DUP has demanded?

:40:54.:41:01.

I simply don't have enough detail what the status of that is whether

:41:02.:41:06.

they can be stopped. I have a track -- asked for legal advice as to what

:41:07.:41:11.

the department can do. It is a really unclear position. You will

:41:12.:41:15.

have heard the Secretary of State saying it is a devolved issue, but

:41:16.:41:21.

it was never a devolved issue. The Northern Ireland Office continued

:41:22.:41:26.

and accepted a call from a senior official on Friday that they were

:41:27.:41:29.

still responsible for those five even though we are still four years

:41:30.:41:33.

into devolution. So as far as you are concerned, you

:41:34.:41:38.

are the justice minister but these five cases have not been devolved to

:41:39.:41:40.

you? I have made it clear that I want no

:41:41.:41:46.

part in Peterhead and's shabby scheme. -- in Peter Hain's shabby

:41:47.:41:58.

scheme. It is unclear as to quote -- whether there was any right for The

:41:59.:42:02.

Northern Ireland Office to continue to pursue them after devolution.

:42:03.:42:06.

It looks like being scheme is continuing, doesn't it?

:42:07.:42:12.

It appears to pay but whether it is legally the case is something on

:42:13.:42:17.

which I am seeking advice. Presumably being plucked -- the

:42:18.:42:20.

enquiry will clarify some of this, do you think?

:42:21.:42:25.

It is not expected to report until the end of May. We know something

:42:26.:42:30.

about the broad terms of reference but there are frequently differences

:42:31.:42:35.

as to how they are interpreted. If a judge wants to get into the full

:42:36.:42:39.

details of the case we will have a better chance. The select committee

:42:40.:42:43.

in Westminster may well be looking at the detail if they don't think a

:42:44.:42:47.

judge lead enquiry has gone far enough.

:42:48.:42:50.

The most senior... It turns out that the most senior civil servant in

:42:51.:42:53.

your department, Nick Perry, knew about what you've called "this

:42:54.:42:57.

shabby, back door deal" all along. You did not!

:42:58.:43:05.

I don't know how much Nick knew. The civil service code makes it clear

:43:06.:43:09.

that civil servants serve the minister who leads the department

:43:10.:43:13.

they are in. The day they move departments they have allegiance to

:43:14.:43:19.

a different minister. And that is how it should be. It is the

:43:20.:43:23.

principle of a nonpolitical civil service working in the interests of

:43:24.:43:27.

the ministers who are there by the political process. I would be

:43:28.:43:32.

annoyed if people who moved from the Department of Justice were telling

:43:33.:43:35.

what went on in that department. You might think I would have wished to

:43:36.:43:40.

know from Nick Perry, but there are much wider implications and his

:43:41.:43:46.

behaviour has been proper. No one is suggesting anything to the contrary

:43:47.:43:49.

but people might be wondering that it is not a good example of joined

:43:50.:43:57.

up government? Files have markers put in them when

:43:58.:44:01.

governments changed and when ministers changed saying, the

:44:02.:44:05.

information below this is not to be revealed to the new ministers and

:44:06.:44:08.

there are lots of complications around that.

:44:09.:44:13.

What other wider political implications, do you think? Night --

:44:14.:44:21.

Mike Nesbitt declared that as far as he is concerned, the Haass talks are

:44:22.:44:25.

dead in the water and he is taking no part. Is that your position?

:44:26.:44:31.

No, that was a foolish thing for him to say. It doesn't matter what

:44:32.:44:35.

emerges from however many enquiries, five parties have the

:44:36.:44:40.

responsibility for leading the executive. Collectively, we have the

:44:41.:44:44.

responsibility to build a better shared future for Northern Ireland

:44:45.:44:48.

and to ensure we put the past behind us in a way which deals with it

:44:49.:44:53.

honestly and comprehensively and we can provide something for which I

:44:54.:44:56.

children and grandchildren can be proud. If we say, I wash my hands of

:44:57.:45:02.

it, we will not get anywhere. But this situation of the past 72

:45:03.:45:06.

hours has fatally wounded that process, has it not?

:45:07.:45:12.

Maybe the four of us will have to carry on without him.

:45:13.:45:15.

Fundamentally, the people of Northern Ireland, through their

:45:16.:45:19.

elected representatives, have to solve the problems whatever else is

:45:20.:45:22.

happening. Do you think the DUP will stay in

:45:23.:45:28.

the process? I think they have distanced themselves from Mike

:45:29.:45:35.

Nesbitt. I am not sure he wants to be relevant, but certainly I want

:45:36.:45:39.

the Alliance party to be relevant and I will continue to do a good job

:45:40.:45:46.

in Justice. Those are the key things for Northern Ireland, moving forward

:45:47.:45:50.

and not falling out over the past in a way which stops us moving forward

:45:51.:45:53.

together. Thank you. Let's hear from our

:45:54.:45:56.

guests now, the commentator Newton Emerson and Dr Cathy Gormley-Heenan

:45:57.:46:03.

from the University of Ulster. Hard to know where to start, isn't it?

:46:04.:46:10.

Let us talk about Peter Hain and the issue of whether or not soldiers

:46:11.:46:14.

involved in Bloody Sunday should be prosecuted. You can understand it

:46:15.:46:17.

will create another political altercation?

:46:18.:46:22.

Yes, there is no reason why Bloody Sunday should be treated any

:46:23.:46:27.

differently to any other atrocities. The Unionist position is

:46:28.:46:32.

that special treatment shouldn't be given to the victims so why should

:46:33.:46:36.

it be given to the perpetrators. It is an attempt to create another de

:46:37.:46:42.

facto amnesty. The object of letting off the soldiers is that nothing

:46:43.:46:45.

could be prosecuted from 40 years ago. Why would that be the case? We

:46:46.:46:52.

are prosecuting radio celebrities from 40 years ago so are you saying

:46:53.:46:57.

a multiple murder is less serious? It is revealing of a new agenda to

:46:58.:47:05.

have a de facto amnesty but that is not legally or politically possible.

:47:06.:47:10.

It is hard for people to pick their way through the minefield of this

:47:11.:47:14.

latest row. You have Peter Hain saying that all of this was in the

:47:15.:47:18.

public domain and people should have known about it and looked at what

:47:19.:47:22.

was being said in Westminster and Stormont. Then Peter Robinson says

:47:23.:47:28.

today in the Sunday Times and quoting answers Peter Hain gave that

:47:29.:47:33.

he says were less than open and honest. How do you get at the facts?

:47:34.:47:40.

Hopefully, that is what the enquiry will attempt to do. I have read

:47:41.:47:48.

about the on-the-run letters years ago in a law journal. People

:47:49.:47:52.

interested in the peace process probably did have a sense that

:47:53.:47:56.

something was happening. It is like many things in Northern Ireland, it

:47:57.:48:00.

flares up at a particular point. This past week, the issue has been

:48:01.:48:07.

more than anything that there needs to be a renewed impetus on a process

:48:08.:48:12.

with which we deal with the past. We have been dealing in with it since

:48:13.:48:20.

1998 but in a piecemeal way. Maybe a bit too pragmatic and approach.

:48:21.:48:26.

Briefly, Peter Robinson made it clear he would resign if he did not

:48:27.:48:30.

get a satisfactory result -- response from the government. He

:48:31.:48:36.

said he got the response he was looking for and his demands were

:48:37.:48:40.

met, where they? I genuinely believe he was ready to

:48:41.:48:46.

resign, but not to bring down the executive. He wanted to reassert his

:48:47.:48:53.

mandate. That is why his credit -- threat was read -- credible. I

:48:54.:48:58.

genuinely think he would have hit the button for an election. Not to

:48:59.:49:07.

bring it down. Briefly, what about Haass? Is it dead in the water? Mike

:49:08.:49:14.

Nesbitt thinks it is but it is an opportunity to decouple some issues.

:49:15.:49:20.

The flags and parades were to difficult to include as a composite

:49:21.:49:25.

block. It is an opportunity to decouple those things and it is a

:49:26.:49:31.

new way to deal with the past. Thank you, both. Now, let's pause

:49:32.:49:35.

for a moment as Conor Macauley takes a look back at a turbulent week in

:49:36.:49:43.

local politics in 60 Seconds. The stormy weather makes life tough

:49:44.:49:47.

for fishermen and they appealed to Stormont for help. We have had to

:49:48.:49:52.

rely on charities based in England to come and help us says something

:49:53.:49:56.

about our politicians and the executive.

:49:57.:50:00.

A different type of storm is brewing on the hill as the case against the

:50:01.:50:05.

man accused of the Hyde Park bombing collapsed. John Downey is one of

:50:06.:50:09.

several on-the-run buts who were told they were not being sought by

:50:10.:50:14.

police. Peter Robinson threatened to resign when he hand -- heard.

:50:15.:50:19.

I am not prepared to be the head of a government kept in the dark. The

:50:20.:50:24.

deputy called for calm claiming others did know.

:50:25.:50:29.

We were the only people who knew about this.

:50:30.:50:35.

David Cameron wants to know more and appointed a judge to lead a review.

:50:36.:50:40.

I agree with Peter Robinson that it is right to get to the bottom of

:50:41.:50:42.

what happened. Conor Macauley reporting. An attempt

:50:43.:50:52.

in the House of Lords to extend libel laws to Northern Ireland was

:50:53.:50:56.

last week withdrawn after a government minister warned that the

:50:57.:50:59.

Stormont executive must have primacy on the issue. When the Defamation

:51:00.:51:04.

Act wrote about first major changes to the UK libel laws since the 19th

:51:05.:51:09.

century, Sammy Wilson halted its extension here. Joining me now to

:51:10.:51:16.

discuss this is Lord Bew, who is part of that attempt in the Lords to

:51:17.:51:20.

extend reform here, and the lawyer Paul Tweed who's opposed.

:51:21.:51:28.

Why was the attempt made at Westminster?

:51:29.:51:30.

When you get a Northern Ireland provisions Bill going through the

:51:31.:51:35.

house, and it is a rare advent, it is inevitable people will make the

:51:36.:51:40.

attempt. There is a lot of feeling in the House of Lords on this issue,

:51:41.:51:44.

there is an attempt to have a debate about it at least. The truth is, the

:51:45.:51:50.

matter is now over. The Minister made it clear for a number of

:51:51.:51:54.

reasons that they will not intervene and it is now a matter for the

:51:55.:52:00.

assembly. A report will be set up from the Law Commission with a

:52:01.:52:04.

distinguished academic to work on it. That is where the debate and

:52:05.:52:09.

focus now is. It was worth airing last week again at Westminster and

:52:10.:52:16.

that concerns exist about freedom of expression here. It is now at a

:52:17.:52:20.

weaker level than the rest of the UK.

:52:21.:52:23.

What is your basic concern? The fundamental concern for me

:52:24.:52:29.

personally as an academic, there is an issue about academic freedom and

:52:30.:52:37.

what academics can save. It is also about political and historical

:52:38.:52:43.

matters. This bill extends academic freedom. It defends the idea of a

:52:44.:52:46.

public interest defence for the media as a whole. If we are going to

:52:47.:52:51.

deal with the past, particularly here, one has to have the freest

:52:52.:52:56.

possible discussion and there really isn't any question that historically

:52:57.:53:02.

the courts have been used to limit in some way of the amount of

:53:03.:53:07.

freedom... As far as all parties are concerned in London, it is supposed

:53:08.:53:12.

to be the correct context for public debate. The absence of this

:53:13.:53:17.

legislation curtails free and open discussion, critically about the key

:53:18.:53:22.

issue of past? In my opinion, it was outrageous

:53:23.:53:28.

that these peers attempted to impose legislation Northern Ireland which,

:53:29.:53:33.

I should say, has been rejected by Scotland. The Republic of Ireland's

:53:34.:53:37.

laws are broadly similar to our own as they currently stand so there is

:53:38.:53:42.

no need for change whatsoever. As far as our libel laws are

:53:43.:53:47.

concerned, there are plenty of safety mechanisms built in. I act

:53:48.:53:51.

for both plaintiffs and newspapers and just before Christmas I acted

:53:52.:53:55.

for a national newspaper in defending a case of so-called" is

:53:56.:54:02.

libel tourism" . We successfully did that. So the law as it currently

:54:03.:54:08.

stands is effective. My big concern is access to justice for the

:54:09.:54:13.

ordinary man on the street. We talk about academics and scientists and

:54:14.:54:17.

I'd sample size with those views. If he feels there is a genuine threat

:54:18.:54:24.

-- I sympathise with those views. I would be happy to countenance

:54:25.:54:29.

specific change in the law but not a whole scale introduction of an owner

:54:30.:54:34.

is law that completely makes it impossible for the ordinary person

:54:35.:54:37.

to take legal proceedings here in Northern Ireland. Finally, a key

:54:38.:54:43.

change is the removal of the jury is. I sat on all the Ministry of

:54:44.:54:48.

Justice panels in London when they debated the English change to the

:54:49.:54:53.

law and I did not get one argument that convinced me that juries were

:54:54.:54:56.

not doing a good job. It is very significant that the one thing the

:54:57.:55:01.

press are worried about here are their readers, the general public,

:55:02.:55:06.

deciding whether they have performed properly and fairly in terms of

:55:07.:55:10.

their reporting. You, as a libel lawyer, may find

:55:11.:55:17.

yourself very busy if the status quo is main stained -- maintained.

:55:18.:55:22.

There will not be a rush of oligarchs coming to Northern

:55:23.:55:26.

Ireland, believe me. I work from London, Dublin and Belfast and less

:55:27.:55:33.

than 5% of my work takes place in Belfast. I don't mind. I will work

:55:34.:55:37.

within the law and what the law gives to me but I cannot get justice

:55:38.:55:42.

for the general public where they have no access to legal aid. We have

:55:43.:55:47.

always been treated differently in Northern Ireland. We cannot recover

:55:48.:55:51.

insurance premiums so we have always been treated differently.

:55:52.:55:57.

How do you respond? He can understand your specific and concern

:55:58.:56:00.

about academics but what about members of the public? He feels he

:56:01.:56:07.

represents their best interests and an extension of this legislation

:56:08.:56:11.

would not serve them? The whole problem with libel law is

:56:12.:56:18.

the conflict between the need to have an -- a right to defend your

:56:19.:56:22.

reputation and the freedom of debate. After a long process of

:56:23.:56:27.

examination we have come up with a new position in Westminster. If you

:56:28.:56:30.

say the Republic of Ireland is different, that is right. We see

:56:31.:56:35.

massive scandals in the Republic of Ireland and there was not one

:56:36.:56:39.

serious article in the press anticipating anything leading up to

:56:40.:56:43.

the whole area of the collapse of the economy and bankers and so on.

:56:44.:56:47.

Does this tell you you had the requisite level of freedoms of

:56:48.:56:53.

discussion here? It is true that Scotland is different but it has its

:56:54.:56:57.

own tradition of law which is elaborate. We have had UK law here

:56:58.:57:04.

essentially. You are not asking our judiciary to operate on an old

:57:05.:57:10.

second-hand car. The media in London will be operating according to the

:57:11.:57:16.

new model and it creates a number of anomalies and difficulties for the

:57:17.:57:21.

judiciary here in Belfast. We are not the same as Scotland,

:57:22.:57:27.

what about that point, nor the legal system -- system in the Republic of

:57:28.:57:34.

Ireland. Our law is broadly similar to Scotland and Ireland. Putting

:57:35.:57:38.

this in perspective, the number of libel actions that have come before

:57:39.:57:43.

the courts in Belfast over the last 30 years are probably to every

:57:44.:57:47.

decade at Oaks. A survey was carried out in England about the so-called

:57:48.:57:54.

libel tourism -- every decade at most. This is a non-issue. A

:57:55.:58:02.

non-problem. The press are sensitive about it to protect their financial

:58:03.:58:06.

issue -- interests but it is not an issue.

:58:07.:58:16.

Thank you both for joining us. Newton says it is not an issue. I am

:58:17.:58:21.

fed up defending libel reform because everyone thinks it is about

:58:22.:58:28.

journalists. The Defamation Act is about protecting academics and

:58:29.:58:33.

scientists. I follow alarming cases where scientists were pursued

:58:34.:58:38.

because companies didn't like the results. There are thousands of jobs

:58:39.:58:43.

like that in Northern Ireland in a university and Major Forbes --

:58:44.:58:48.

firms. It will only take one of these ridiculous cases to make as an

:58:49.:58:51.

international pariah and a similar risk applies to IT. Those industries

:58:52.:58:59.

need to get off the face -- fence and defend their interests because

:59:00.:59:03.

the media cannot do it alone. Mike Nesbitt's billows out for

:59:04.:59:09.

consultation. We know that it is a big responsibility on our show

:59:10.:59:18.

ministers shoulders? They should take his day from the deliberations

:59:19.:59:20.

in the house of Lords because they have much experience in the reading

:59:21.:59:27.

of these bills. We have no formal opposition or an effective

:59:28.:59:31.

opposition, the media plays that role and anything that could happen

:59:32.:59:34.

in the media that could stop holding our government to account is

:59:35.:59:40.

Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to

:59:41.:59:42.

you. This week grant Shap said he wanted

:59:43.:59:55.

to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach

:59:56.:00:01.

out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they

:00:02.:00:05.

should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and

:00:06.:00:13.

two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos.

:00:14.:00:22.

Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on

:00:23.:00:28.

with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol

:00:29.:00:33.

must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for

:00:34.:00:38.

our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social

:00:39.:00:45.

mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents.

:00:46.:00:49.

I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only

:00:50.:00:55.

party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and

:00:56.:01:01.

minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too

:01:02.:01:04.

little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the

:01:05.:01:10.

elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The

:01:11.:01:16.

republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious

:01:17.:01:22.

blue. Our would be deepest red. We love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs

:01:23.:01:26.

Thatcher called it the dead parrot when we launched it. We won the

:01:27.:01:31.

Eastbourne by-election off the Tories very soon aftered with.

:01:32.:01:37.

Perhaps it feels like we're in a coalition cage but we're escaping

:01:38.:01:42.

that soon. Why does it fly to the right? Most Liberal Democrats would

:01:43.:01:46.

want it to fly to the left. I hope it will soon.

:01:47.:01:54.

Interesting there. Let's stick with the Robert Hall pin one. He was

:01:55.:01:59.

being serious. The others were fun. It is interesting that talking about

:02:00.:02:05.

appealing to the blue collared vote, the upper working class, lower

:02:06.:02:11.

middle class, curiously now neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great

:02:12.:02:15.

cut through with these people. But in wanting to be the Workers Party,

:02:16.:02:23.

how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four

:02:24.:02:29.

next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance

:02:30.:02:34.

tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned

:02:35.:02:38.

income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers

:02:39.:02:43.

never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the

:02:44.:02:50.

thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm

:02:51.:02:53.

beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research,

:02:54.:02:59.

there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views.

:03:00.:03:04.

They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can

:03:05.:03:10.

we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different

:03:11.:03:16.

pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will

:03:17.:03:21.

mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher

:03:22.:03:26.

called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have

:03:27.:03:30.

strivers in the people who run your party so you know what we've been

:03:31.:03:35.

through, the struggles we've had. How many of the six drawing up the

:03:36.:03:40.

manifesto have had ever a mortgage. The one who's not an old Etonian

:03:41.:03:45.

went to St Paul's. He's a day schoolboy! It is interesting and it

:03:46.:03:50.

was funny you mentioned an elephant. Don't think of an elephant as the

:03:51.:03:56.

title of that book. Calling it the Workers Party draws attention to the

:03:57.:03:59.

Tories biggest electoral weakness. The idea they are a class apart. Out

:04:00.:04:05.

of touch. I think it is interesting, they have identified their elections

:04:06.:04:09.

are won or lost by this particular demo graphic of the C 1, and C 2.

:04:10.:04:18.

Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed load, Tony Blair got them. His

:04:19.:04:23.

failure in 2010 is the reason David Cameron didn't win an overall

:04:24.:04:29.

majority. I'm disappointed with the ladder. You should have a hammer or

:04:30.:04:34.

sickle! The Conservatives have a terrible brand problem. You heard

:04:35.:04:39.

them explaining why they did badly in the Wythenshawe by-election,

:04:40.:04:42.

saying there's quite a large council estate there In 1961, I think the

:04:43.:04:47.

Conservatives won a by-election back then, they were getting through to

:04:48.:04:53.

those sort of voters. There is not a single Conservative councillor in

:04:54.:04:55.

Manchester. They have this terrible problem. You're right for them to

:04:56.:05:02.

pick up on the five Etonians writing their manifesto. David Cameron sir

:05:03.:05:08.

rounding himself with his own. He doesn't have to do that. I seas

:05:09.:05:16.

things like isn't Robert Halpen great. He decides and has his own.

:05:17.:05:24.

He has some more slightly common people from St Paul's! One of the

:05:25.:05:28.

ways the Conservatives hoped to broaden their appeal is the tougher

:05:29.:05:33.

line on immigration. We learned net immigration is rising substantially.

:05:34.:05:39.

Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric. In

:05:40.:05:45.

scores of our cities and market towns, this country, in a short

:05:46.:05:55.

space of time, has become N'Zonzi rkable whether it is --

:05:56.:06:01.

unrecognisable. Whether it is the impact on local schools and

:06:02.:06:07.

hospitals. In many parts of England you don't hear English spoken, this

:06:08.:06:11.

is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and

:06:12.:06:16.

grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments.

:06:17.:06:23.

Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road.

:06:24.:06:30.

Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,

:06:31.:06:37.

nobody knows what he's saying half of the time. You can handle the

:06:38.:06:44.

letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond does not make his case on Scotland

:06:45.:06:54.

for the Scottish. Let's put aside whether the policy's right or wrong.

:06:55.:07:01.

How bad, by the Tories own lights, is the fact the net figure for

:07:02.:07:08.

immigration went up 60,000? It looks really bad. If I was a Tory

:07:09.:07:13.

strategist, I'd be philosophical about it. Immigration, even if they

:07:14.:07:18.

were meeting the target, I don't think the public would believe it.

:07:19.:07:23.

It is like crime a few years ago, the crime rates had been declining

:07:24.:07:28.

for the best part of 20 years but the fear of crime remains high.

:07:29.:07:34.

There's such a degree of cynicism that regardless of your

:07:35.:07:37.

administrative record in Government, the public will remain hostile to

:07:38.:07:43.

you. This is where Nigel Farage can be potent. He said it is not about

:07:44.:07:47.

numbers. It is about community. It is about people seeing their

:07:48.:07:54.

communities change. And in the Sunday Telegraph, it was said this

:07:55.:07:59.

isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty bone for a bull terrier. The problem

:08:00.:08:03.

for the Government on these figures is we know why the net migration

:08:04.:08:07.

figures are not looking good. They got down the non-EU figures but the

:08:08.:08:13.

EU figures are going up. From Italy and Spain as their economies tanked,

:08:14.:08:19.

people came here. If he hadn't made such a big deal of the numbers, the

:08:20.:08:24.

Tories, I mean, you could present this as a huge success story. If you

:08:25.:08:26.

believe immigration was good for the country. You would say it doesn't

:08:27.:08:31.

matter what Labour says, the best and the brightest young people from

:08:32.:08:34.

all over Europe are voting with their feet to come to Britain. But

:08:35.:08:39.

you never hear that case being made and certainly not by Labour. They

:08:40.:08:43.

acknowledge although immigration is best in the abstract for the

:08:44.:08:47.

economy, people don't feel it in their daily lives. There's a huge

:08:48.:08:52.

vacuum for the case where immigration should be in our public

:08:53.:08:56.

life. I remember a time when the economy was in such decline there

:08:57.:09:01.

was a rush to the door in the sixties and seventies. Now we are

:09:02.:09:05.

claiming our economy's doing better than any of the other major

:09:06.:09:10.

economies bar Germany, people want to join in our success. London was a

:09:11.:09:15.

declining city until the mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be

:09:16.:09:22.

honest. She was proposing a cap on immigration. Not going to happen.

:09:23.:09:27.

Today she is saying maybe people from poorer member states cannot

:09:28.:09:32.

come in until their economies grow. That's future accession states.

:09:33.:09:37.

That's Turkey in ten years' time It is causing divisions with the

:09:38.:09:41.

coalition. She's bashing Vince Cable. You often see Liberal

:09:42.:09:45.

Democrats bashing the Tories. You don't often see a Tory minister bash

:09:46.:09:50.

Vince Cable. She does on the immigration figures. He thought they

:09:51.:09:54.

were good news. Last week, Vince responded to the news by saying it

:09:55.:09:59.

was a policy he was happy for the gift to flunk. The problem was going

:10:00.:10:03.

for a cap. There are six moving parts. UK citizens leaving, coming

:10:04.:10:09.

back. EU citizens leaving and coming back and then third party nationals.

:10:10.:10:15.

And students coming to study. Of course. You only have control over

:10:16.:10:23.

the EU citizens. Have you to clamp down on ace strayian, Chinese or

:10:24.:10:31.

American graduates. They should have gone for the Australian points

:10:32.:10:38.

system. I don't have a pure cap on numbers just background etc. Tim

:10:39.:10:47.

Farran said in the European election either vogue Liberal Democrat or

:10:48.:10:50.

UKIP. He turned that to his advantage. It is hopeful but he's

:10:51.:10:55.

come up with a way to spin this. Labour has his special conference.

:10:56.:11:05.

Was it or was it not an event? Not sure it was the biggest moment in

:11:06.:11:10.

the party since 1918. But things fell apart in the special conference

:11:11.:11:16.

in 1981. 2004 got another special conference. Who's on board? David

:11:17.:11:21.

Owen who founded the gang of four. He's not joined but he's given them

:11:22.:11:26.

money. He's not going to sit with them in the Lord's. He's given

:11:27.:11:31.

money. They lost the gang of four. Back comes David Owen. Not historic?

:11:32.:11:37.

Why would he want it to be more significant than it was. There's a

:11:38.:11:43.

tendency to see him taking the fight to his party. Why would he want

:11:44.:11:47.

that? The fact it has not pleased Grant Shapps is not a test to see

:11:48.:11:55.

whether this has worked. It has been described as an historic moment and

:11:56.:12:06.

incremental of what John did. The trade union block voters disappeared

:12:07.:12:11.

a long time ago. They still have 50% of the vote. But 2,000 of union

:12:12.:12:19.

members voting for this guy has gone. It is a reform from 20 years

:12:20.:12:24.

ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed Miliband's stored up trouble. Len

:12:25.:12:29.

McCluskey wants a million new homes and answered to the benefit caps is

:12:30.:12:34.

not reconcilable with the deficit reduction strategy. In five years'

:12:35.:12:39.

time if there is a Labour Government it becomes very difficult. We should

:12:40.:12:44.

keep an eye on it? Always. Labour Party process is never ending.

:12:45.:12:48.

Unlike this programme. That's all from us today. Continuing reports of

:12:49.:12:55.

events in the Ukraine on the BBC News Channel. There's no Daily

:12:56.:13:00.

Politics tomorrow because of cover Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial

:13:01.:13:04.

service at Westminster Abbey on BBC Two live. We'll be back on the Daily

:13:05.:13:10.

Politics on Tuesday at midday. We'll be back here next week with the Work

:13:11.:13:15.

and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday

:13:16.:13:18.

Politics.

:13:19.:13:36.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS