06/10/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


06/10/2013

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news and interviews. With Lord Prescott, Godfrey Bloom MEP, Chuka Umunna, Margot James MP and City AM's Allister Heath.


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Transcript


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Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU

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referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel

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demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers

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prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be

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the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be

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between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?

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You are talking about the colour of peoples faces?!

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And in Northern Ireland, another major international investment

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conference taking place here this week. We will ask Arlene Foster what

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He will try to force a vote in the Commons to hold the poll next

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October. Home Secretary Theresa May was asked about his plans on the BBC

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earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need

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to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put

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that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a

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flea bite or a real threat? I think what is crucial is that we have, at

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the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people

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that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future

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and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.

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And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who was

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putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could

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jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.

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Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would

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have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be

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time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in

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2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started

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negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain

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members, would need to accommodate and make changes so that they would

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persuade the British public to stay, if that is what they want. It

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strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time

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for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has

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not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our

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timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I

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think, basically, 80% of people want a referendum. More than 50% what a

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referendum this side of the election. British businesses need

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certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for

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ever, but I have struggled with my conscience over this one. I do not

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want to cause trouble, but it is essential that Parliament and MPs

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have the opportunity to search their souls and give people a referendum

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this side of the election. That would also bring certainty and

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clarity for the future, and like I said, it strengthens the Prime

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Minister's hand if it is successful. You right in the Mail on Sunday that

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the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they

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don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I

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wrote for that piece. What I am saying is a very calm analysis...

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You are saying that the British people are not convinced. Look,

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there are too many uncertainties here - they may not be convinced the

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Conservatives will win the election, I hope we will, they may not be

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convinced the renegotiation will be good enough, that there will be a

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referendum. Do you trust David Cameron to deliver a referendum?

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That is why we need to bring the referendum forward, there is time to

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negotiate, and we tidy up the issue that has been hanging around for too

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long. Do you trust David Cameron to deliver a referendum in 2017? I

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completely support the Prime Minister, and of course I trust the

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completely support the Prime Prime Minister. To deliver a

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referendum? There as only variables in between. What I am doing with

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referendum? There as only variables this amendment, is to try to be sure

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is that Parliament and every MP has the opportunity decide whether they

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want to be sure of a referendum within this parliament, or maybe

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leave it to the vagaries of what may within this parliament, or maybe

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happen in 2015. Supposing you got your way, how would you vote? Like

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Michael Gove, I would vote for us to leave as of today, but there will be

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Michael Gove, I would vote for us to an enormous amount of pressure on

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European Union leaders to come forward with proposals. If they were

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to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever

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closer trading harmony, giving us more border control and control over

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our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to

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happen - if we have a referendum in 2014, 12 months is time for

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negotiations to be kick-started and people to argue in or out, and the

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end result is a stronger Prime Minister. Is it true that you have

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got about 80 MPs supporting this? It is cross-party, that is for

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certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five

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weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you, it

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is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know

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there is widespread support, cross-party, for people who want the

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British public to have a say in 2014. You know it is not going to

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get through, the whips will stop this from happening. One of the

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successes, apparently, of your party's Manchester conference was

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that you were not divided over Europe anymore, the Europe issue was

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settled. Here you are bringing it Europe anymore, the Europe issue was

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back to life and pouring petrol on the flames - are you now the

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unlicensed troublemaker of the Tories? The only struggle I have had

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is not a fight with my party but Tories? The only struggle I have had

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with my conscience as to whether or not I would give Parliament and the

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British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with

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it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for

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each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and

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decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the

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headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition

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in that direction, I am not a publicity seeker. All I seek is for

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the British people do have this. I would not be able to sleep at night

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if I did not bring forward this opportunity for Britain to have its

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say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a

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say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle

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with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the

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panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with

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him. I think what this confirms is that David Cameron is incredibly

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lucky in his enemies. His most prolific critics, Nadine Dorries,

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Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if you are very anti-Cameron, you will

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not think, man, if only they were in charge of the party! I think the

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party managers are not too alarmed. They do not take him seriously? No,

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it is not a frivolous amendment. It is not as if the James Wharton bill

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is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.

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It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the

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next Parliament. My understanding of the constitution is that is

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theoretically impossible and that all the future government would do

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is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that

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Cameron's plan for a referendum is nothing like as likely to happen...

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Hung parliaments, frivolous amendments can be immensely

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dangerous. The problem for David Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed

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Miliband says he's going to support Adam Afriyie, it will go through.

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Unlikely that Ed Miliband would do that, but what he might do is say to

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his MPs, ignore this. It may well be that the Labour payroll and a

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significant number of Labour MPs do not turn up, and then what you have

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got is a war between the Conservative payroll and the

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Conservative backbenchers, and in that war you might well find that

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Adam Afriyie's amendment goes through, and then the Prime Minister

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has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister

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could renegotiate terms of membership, up what basis and with

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which mandate? He would not be able to get agreement with Nick Clegg or

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Ed Miliband, so you would be looking at Adam Afriyie voting to leave. I

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think he is a Labour mole, that is what I have come to, a Daily Mail

:09:47.:09:50.

style conspiracy theory, it could not be more perfect. The prospect of

:09:50.:09:53.

style conspiracy theory, it could a referendum on the EU at the same

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time as Scottish independence is what no-one once, so that is it. He

:09:56.:10:02.

has told us he could not sleep at night, wrestling with his

:10:02.:10:05.

conscience. We could send him some pills, I suppose. We know he's going

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to sack all those lieutenants were going around and saying he is the

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great future and the next leader of the Conservative Party. He denied

:10:14.:10:19.

doing that! He would be amazed to hear you say that, this is a crisis

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of conscience. Whispered conversations in corridors, quite an

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operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters, not

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46, but at the moment this campaign is being run by Lieutenant of Adam

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Afriyie. He has got lieutenants? They are disaffected and not happy

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under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am

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pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton

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is saying, you're going to kill my bill. I do not think they are very

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competence lieutenants. The main political consequence of this

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episode is it will unify a large chunk of the Colin Hendry

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Conservative Party behind David Cameron. On what they hope is a

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settled position. We still hope to be talking to John Prescott, who is

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in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do

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you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but

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not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from

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you? The Government says it has a scheme designed for you which is in

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launching next week, help to buy, and it should lead to the

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re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy

:11:38.:11:43.

really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.

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Never mind who lives in a house like this, who can afford to buy a house

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these days? The Government would this, who can afford to buy a house

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like many more people to be able to without putting down a crippling

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amount of money as a deposit, and in the spirit of rights to buy, the

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government has launched help to buy, confusingly it is the name for two

:12:03.:12:04.

different schemes. The first scheme, Help to Buy 1, has

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been running since April. Help to Buy 2 was supposed to come in

:12:18.:12:21.

January next year, but the government are bringing it in early.

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Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this

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scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really

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works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is that

:12:34.:12:41.

it was for new build only, up to a value of £600,000. But it is Help to

:12:41.:12:47.

Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up

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to a value, again, of £600,000. This time the Government is guaranteeing

:12:54.:13:00.

that it will take on the first losses should the home owner in the

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future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if

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you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the

:13:08.:13:13.

5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating

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banks and building societies. And that, the Prime Minister thinks, is

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a housing prime mover. You cannot get training to 5% mortgage anymore,

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90% even, so there are couples in our country who have good jobs,

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decent incomes, they could afford the mortgage payments but they

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cannot buy the house. It is a failure in our banking market. So

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that is the Prime Minister, Jonathan, but I guess for you this

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is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a scheme which should be hammered. The

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main impact of this scheme will be to push up prices, who does that

:13:48.:13:52.

benefit? Mostly rich and all the people who own their houses. Plus

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the banks, of course, because it is a subsidy for them. Who loses?

:13:57.:14:02.

People who want to buy a house in the future. Moreover, it is a bit

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odd that the Government says it is not OK to borrow to finance schools

:14:05.:14:11.

or roads, but it is fine for the Government to take on more debt,

:14:11.:14:16.

effectively, in order to guarantee 95% mortgages and pump up the

:14:16.:14:23.

housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.

:14:23.:14:27.

But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of

:14:27.:14:34.

help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the

:14:34.:14:39.

announcement forward by three months, and banks were not ready at

:14:39.:14:43.

that stage. Two banks have committed to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group

:14:43.:14:46.

and the RBS group, so lenders like Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will

:14:46.:14:51.

be doing the scheme, but even once the scheme is up and running you are

:14:51.:14:55.

not going to see Help to Buy mortgages badged up. You will

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probably find 95% mortgages on the high street because of the guarantee

:14:59.:15:08.

the government is offering. People might say this is how we got into a

:15:08.:15:12.

mess in the first place. Why would the government want to make those

:15:12.:15:19.

products available then now? It was more what investment banks were

:15:19.:15:22.

doing in the background that caused the problems. Mortgages have

:15:22.:15:28.

performed extremely well through the depths of the downturn. Is this a

:15:28.:15:35.

game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years

:15:35.:15:40.

but this has enabled me to make that first purchase. How frustrating was

:15:40.:15:48.

it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand

:15:48.:15:53.

over fist, and now I can take that leap to being an owner. His

:15:53.:15:57.

enthusiasm raises a question back at the flat. If you are looking for a

:15:57.:16:02.

95% mortgage, you don't really care what will happen in the wider

:16:02.:16:07.

economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a

:16:07.:16:14.

house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term

:16:14.:16:21.

economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull

:16:21.:16:25.

off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to buy

:16:25.:16:32.

their own homes that they reward the Government with the vote, while at

:16:32.:16:35.

the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a

:16:35.:16:51.

scheme might create. Now Conservative MP Margot James,

:16:51.:16:53.

and Allister Heath, editor of City AM, go head to head.

:16:53.:16:57.

It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.

:16:57.:17:04.

Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in

:17:04.:17:18.

London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it

:17:18.:17:22.

will pump up house prices, it will not increase the supply and

:17:22.:17:28.

therefore houses will become even more overvalued. That is a dangerous

:17:28.:17:33.

territory, last time it ended in tears, and now the Government is

:17:33.:17:38.

taking on the risk of that policy. What do you say to that? We have a

:17:38.:17:44.

real problem, it takes people on average until they are 38 years old

:17:44.:17:49.

until they can buy their own property. The problem is not that

:17:49.:17:57.

they cannot afford it, but they cannot afford the deposit. We have

:17:57.:18:01.

got to do something to allow people to get their feet on the property

:18:01.:18:05.

ladder and I don't agree it will cause a boom in house prices. It

:18:05.:18:10.

would if we were not building any new houses, but we are. Are you? We

:18:10.:18:23.

have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record for

:18:23.:18:34.

the last ten years. These are not the statistics I have seen, but the

:18:34.:18:41.

new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see

:18:41.:18:46.

enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution

:18:46.:18:50.

to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes

:18:50.:18:54.

and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the

:18:54.:18:58.

right places. The reason the deposits are so high is because

:18:58.:19:03.

house prices are still too high, and secondly the Government has passed

:19:03.:19:06.

laws to make the banking system more prudent, telling them to put more

:19:06.:19:11.

money aside in case things go wrong. Now suddenly the Government

:19:11.:19:16.

is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create

:19:16.:19:19.

these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not

:19:20.:19:26.

a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take

:19:26.:19:32.

part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the

:19:32.:19:39.

money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The

:19:39.:19:46.

taxpayer is protected. Why? You are guaranteeing £12 billion worth of

:19:46.:19:52.

mortgages per year. Yes but the change in the whole mortgage basis

:19:52.:19:58.

has been made a few years ago in response of the crash. They made the

:19:58.:20:01.

distressed test on people applying for mortgages much higher and you

:20:01.:20:09.

have to be able to repay at twice... So it will not be like

:20:09.:20:13.

these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused

:20:13.:20:19.

the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly

:20:19.:20:24.

asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house

:20:24.:20:29.

prices could fall if interest rates will go up, which they will

:20:29.:20:33.

eventually, so they are demanding bigger deposits. The Government is

:20:33.:20:37.

making sure the risk of circumventing this is being passed

:20:37.:20:39.

making sure the risk of on to the taxpayers which is why it

:20:39.:20:43.

is a dangerous policy. Instead they should be massively accelerating

:20:43.:20:50.

house-building. Which we are. Planning permission is much easier

:20:50.:20:54.

to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission for

:20:55.:20:59.

a new building over the last year, a huge increase. In the figures I saw

:20:59.:21:05.

recently, they showed new start in the 12 months to the autumn were

:21:05.:21:12.

only about 110,000 which is the figure you inherited, which was at

:21:12.:21:17.

an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third

:21:17.:21:24.

up on the time last year. You have got to give a chance for the

:21:24.:21:27.

relaxation of planning laws and the other policies the Government put

:21:27.:21:31.

into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I

:21:31.:21:36.

agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector

:21:36.:21:40.

was not really ready to take advantage of the increased demand,

:21:41.:21:45.

there would be a risk. David Cameron says you are snob and it is only

:21:45.:21:52.

snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They don't have the bank of mum and dad,

:21:52.:21:59.

people like that will finally get on the housing ladder. That is complete

:21:59.:22:05.

nonsense. We need a sustainable housing market where there is a

:22:05.:22:10.

large amount of construction, like in the 1930s for example, where

:22:10.:22:13.

large numbers of proper family homes were being built for people. House

:22:13.:22:22.

prices were pushed down and people could afford houses. You are now

:22:22.:22:28.

encouraging people to take out a 95% mortgage, I thought that was a bad

:22:28.:22:34.

idea, so supposing interest rates go up by a lot, I am going to

:22:34.:22:38.

struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced

:22:38.:22:44.

with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.

:22:44.:22:51.

95% mortgage, if you can afford the repayments, you will be fine. What

:22:51.:22:57.

happens when interest rates rise? They have got to rise a lot before

:22:58.:23:03.

you get into trouble. People are already affording rent which is a

:23:03.:23:09.

lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into

:23:09.:23:16.

this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are at

:23:16.:23:20.

the moment. The Conservatives should have been enjoying the media

:23:21.:23:24.

limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape of a

:23:24.:23:30.

row between Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the

:23:31.:23:34.

Daily Mail printed an article claiming that Ed Miliband's Father

:23:34.:23:41.

Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone

:23:41.:23:48.

with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and gave

:23:48.:23:53.

Ed Miliband the right to reply on the Tuesday edition, but also

:23:53.:23:57.

printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word they

:23:57.:24:01.

published an fair headline. It also emerged in the week that the

:24:01.:24:06.

reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's

:24:06.:24:11.

uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,

:24:11.:24:15.

but Ed Miliband has called on the Daily Mail owner to take a long,

:24:15.:24:21.

hard look at the way his papers are run. This comes a week before a new

:24:21.:24:26.

system of press regulation is considered at the Privy Council.

:24:26.:24:31.

Joining us now from Hull, John Prescott. Does this row between Ed

:24:31.:24:37.

Miliband and the Daily Mail reinforce the case for tough, new

:24:37.:24:45.

regulation of the press? It certainly influences the opinion

:24:45.:24:50.

about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang me

:24:50.:24:54.

while I was in Strasbourg making sure my complaints were nothing to

:24:54.:24:59.

do with press regulation and he is right. This argument is not about

:24:59.:25:07.

politicians and media people, it is about ordinary people that love this

:25:07.:25:16.

and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they

:25:16.:25:21.

are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we

:25:21.:25:26.

will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the

:25:27.:25:33.

proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did

:25:33.:25:49.

with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the

:25:49.:25:57.

with its Miliband article was a Leveson inquiry came to the

:25:57.:26:02.

conclusion that the relationship between the press, the police and

:26:02.:26:06.

politicians should be governed, but this is about how you have a

:26:06.:26:09.

framework that can be fair to everyone. If you look at the

:26:10.:26:16.

proposal given by half the press industry that that does not meet the

:26:16.:26:20.

Leveson requirement and I suspect the Privy Council this week will

:26:20.:26:24.

have to reject that, and I hope it will because it is not consistent

:26:24.:26:28.

with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.

:26:28.:26:34.

You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through

:26:34.:26:40.

the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled

:26:40.:26:45.

son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about

:26:45.:26:53.

Ralph Miliband? It probably is, I couldn't defend that. I have had

:26:53.:27:02.

reporters going through my bins. Haven't we all? Yes, but we are

:27:02.:27:08.

dealing with the judgement of editors who acts unilaterally. Paul

:27:08.:27:15.

Dacre is running this thing in the Mail. How can we accept their

:27:15.:27:23.

judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the

:27:23.:27:33.

old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject it

:27:33.:27:37.

this week there is 12 months until you can consider a parliamentary

:27:37.:27:42.

alternative and then you are near the election and you begin to bully

:27:42.:27:45.

the leaders. That is how they have been successful in putting off

:27:45.:27:55.

recommendations. Maybe my memory is fading but did you or anybody else

:27:56.:28:01.

in the Labour Party object to the Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't

:28:01.:28:07.

know about it. I would just say it is wrong if that is what they did.

:28:07.:28:11.

As you said, you have the same position when they go through your

:28:11.:28:17.

rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime

:28:17.:28:22.

Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action

:28:22.:28:25.

of editors and he came forward with a proposal that was agreed in

:28:25.:28:38.

Parliament under a compromise of the Royal Charter. I don't like a Royal

:28:38.:28:40.

Charter, it is not democratic frankly, but we have agreed to go

:28:40.:28:43.

along with it so why did the Government set up in charge at the

:28:43.:28:48.

same time rushed through the press box? It looks like a fix, like they

:28:48.:28:57.

are using the Royal Charter as a means of delaying everything. They

:28:57.:29:01.

have now said they are going to introduce their own independent

:29:01.:29:04.

charter. This industry does not want to face up to any form of

:29:04.:29:09.

accountability. We know Alistair Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers

:29:09.:29:12.

accountability. We know Alistair are working closely on the assault

:29:12.:29:20.

of the Mail. What is the endgame for this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre?

:29:20.:29:25.

He is not an acceptable character to me, and he needs to be taking

:29:25.:29:39.

account. When Ed Miliband rang me it was to say, don't let these

:29:39.:29:42.

arguments drift into press regulation, he wanted the argument

:29:42.:29:50.

of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can

:29:50.:29:58.

stay there. It is like with Murdoch, after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can

:29:58.:30:02.

we were not attacking him but what is papers were doing. To that

:30:02.:30:06.

extent, what they are doing about ordinary people, not just big

:30:06.:30:09.

politicians who can look after themselves. We know, with the bad

:30:09.:30:14.

cases he had to deal with, they might get libel action, which the

:30:14.:30:18.

press say, but they pretty well destroyed their lives. That is about

:30:18.:30:22.

judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre got good judgment? I would say no,

:30:22.:30:27.

he will have to live with it. Thank you for joining us, he did not

:30:27.:30:32.

even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What

:30:32.:30:39.

is the endgame in this? Whether the Labour Party is trying to make this

:30:39.:30:42.

an issue press regulation are not, this is where it is going. We have

:30:42.:30:47.

the criminal trial involving Andy Coulson coming up, the Privy Council

:30:47.:30:49.

discussing press radiation before the end of the year, and the

:30:49.:30:52.

question is, what is political impact? My hunch, it is an

:30:52.:30:56.

unfashionable view, is that the total at yum elated political impact

:30:57.:31:00.

of the Leveson story over the past several years, hacking and

:31:00.:31:04.

everything, is close to zero, because most voters do not care, and

:31:04.:31:12.

those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in

:31:12.:31:14.

being too close to editors and proprietors. You said that Adam

:31:14.:31:19.

Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a smile. Is the Daily Mail also a

:31:19.:31:26.

Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,

:31:26.:31:30.

I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I

:31:30.:31:36.

think... I should say I used to work for the Daily Mail, but when they

:31:36.:31:40.

printed the right of reply, they surrounded it with a big two fingers

:31:40.:31:42.

up at Ed. If they had not done surrounded it with a big two fingers

:31:42.:31:46.

that, they would not be in this position. The poll in the Sunday

:31:46.:31:51.

Times this morning shows 72% think the Daily Mail was wrong and backed

:31:51.:31:56.

Mr Miliband's demand for an apology. If you come to define and your dad,

:31:56.:31:59.

people are naturally going to do this, but it took all the coverage

:31:59.:32:04.

away from the Tory conference, the media loves covering itself, here we

:32:04.:32:07.

are doing it again, this has been a dream for Mr Miliband. The political

:32:07.:32:13.

significance of this is that David Cameron said in the House of Commons

:32:13.:32:17.

that he wanted to try to find some common ground between the three

:32:17.:32:21.

party Royal Charter and the so-called press industry version.

:32:21.:32:26.

What the Daily Mail has done is ensured that the Prime Minister is

:32:26.:32:29.

not going to be able to do that. What is going to happen this week is

:32:29.:32:33.

that the press Royal Charter has to be considered first, and that will

:32:33.:32:36.

probably be rejected. The Privy Council will reject it. Then the

:32:36.:32:43.

three party Royal Charter will come up, but meanwhile the press will set

:32:43.:32:49.

up their own regulatory body because the Royal Charter is not a proper

:32:49.:32:52.

statutory underpinning, they will be able to go ahead with that. There

:32:52.:32:55.

statutory underpinning, they will be will be the legal basis for the

:32:55.:32:58.

oversight of the oversight body, and it will basically just be an

:32:58.:33:02.

ambassador that will not be resolved. As you say, no-one much

:33:02.:33:07.

cares about this outside of the resolved. As you say, no-one much

:33:07.:33:10.

profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for

:33:10.:33:18.

Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great

:33:18.:33:26.

victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the

:33:26.:33:30.

narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But

:33:30.:33:32.

all those vested interests are stands up to vested interests. But

:33:32.:33:35.

people that you would expect a left-wing politician to want to take

:33:35.:33:41.

on. It is also more significant about who he has stood up for, and

:33:41.:33:47.

the person he has studied for is his father. Maybe people thought of him

:33:47.:33:50.

as a Marxist, now they think of him as war hero. He gets to the crux of

:33:50.:33:57.

matters, you know! You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in

:33:57.:34:02.

just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to Godfrey

:34:02.:34:14.

Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. With

:34:14.:34:19.

another international investment conference coming up this week, what

:34:19.:34:22.

will the Enterprise Minister be hoping it achieves for the economy?

:34:22.:34:25.

I'll be talking live to Arlene Foster from her Fermanagh

:34:26.:34:31.

constituency. Voters in the Republic opt to retain the upper house, the

:34:31.:34:33.

Seanad. So is it a calculated slap in the

:34:33.:34:37.

face for the Taoiseach, or a vote for democracy? And with me

:34:37.:34:40.

throughout, journalist Sam McBride and writer Susan McKay.

:34:40.:34:48.

International investors are coming here this week to be wooed by the

:34:48.:34:52.

Secretary of State, the First and Deputy First Ministers, and even the

:34:52.:34:55.

Prime Minister, in an attempt to encourage them to put their money

:34:55.:34:59.

into Northern Ireland. David Cameron was behind the idea, which he

:34:59.:35:02.

announced at the end of the G8 summit in Fermanagh earlier this

:35:02.:35:05.

year. Overall it's been a good year for inward investment, with a number

:35:06.:35:09.

of major job announcements. Only this week, Stream Global Services, a

:35:09.:35:12.

US-based call centre business, said it's creating 1000 jobs.

:35:12.:35:17.

Unemployment is falling and now stands at just below 7%, which is

:35:17.:35:22.

lower than the UK average. But political divisions still remain at

:35:22.:35:25.

Stormont, with the Maze/Long Kesh development proving a major

:35:25.:35:29.

obstacle. So will there be a united front for the visitors? Joining me

:35:29.:35:32.

from Fivemiletown is the Enterprise Minister, Arlene Foster. Thank you

:35:33.:35:40.

for joining us on the programme. How optimistic are you that this

:35:40.:35:43.

conference will deliver anything substantive for the Northern Ireland

:35:43.:35:50.

economy? I am very optimistic that will happen. This is part of the

:35:50.:35:53.

economic legacy of the G8 and the will happen. This is part of the

:35:53.:35:58.

Prime Minister announced it after the G8 took place in Fermanagh, so

:35:58.:36:02.

we have been working since then to identify potential investors for

:36:02.:36:07.

Northern Ireland and we believe a number of them will come to Belfast

:36:08.:36:10.

and be joined by existing investors number of them will come to Belfast

:36:10.:36:14.

who can advocate for why they came to Northern Ireland and why it is a

:36:14.:36:20.

good place to invest in. Who is coming specifically that we should

:36:20.:36:26.

be impressed by? I will not talk about the tension investors for

:36:26.:36:30.

obvious reasons, that there will be people from the New York Stock

:36:30.:36:35.

Exchange, from Chicago mercantile, and Northern Ireland is now the

:36:35.:36:38.

number one in the world for financial technology investment and

:36:38.:36:42.

I think that is something to be proud of and we will talk about why

:36:42.:36:47.

that is the case. We have the skills and billable and the infrastructure

:36:47.:36:53.

in terms of telecoms infrastructure and this is something people mention

:36:53.:36:56.

a lot, we have accessibility to government, the government can work

:36:56.:37:02.

well with business. Will there be new companies to Northern Ireland

:37:02.:37:05.

with no existing presence here at the table? There will, and that is

:37:05.:37:13.

part of the mix, we have potential investors as well as investors

:37:13.:37:14.

part of the mix, we have potential already here, but those investors

:37:14.:37:21.

who are here, 75% of those reinvest into Northern Ireland, so we're not

:37:21.:37:25.

just looking at new investment but those people already here and how --

:37:25.:37:30.

what more we can do with them. How should we measure it against the

:37:30.:37:33.

last investment conference here in 2008,

:37:33.:37:37.

? Are last conference etc first all as a country which was to do

:37:37.:37:47.

? Are last conference etc first all business on the world stage, so much

:37:47.:37:51.

so that Northern Ireland is just behind Greater London as the largest

:37:51.:37:56.

bringer of investment into the UK, and that is something we should be

:37:56.:38:01.

proud of. We have only 3% of the population of the UK, yet we brought

:38:01.:38:04.

in 7% of foreign investment, and population of the UK, yet we brought

:38:04.:38:08.

that is something we should want to grow after this investment

:38:08.:38:10.

conference, so it is a chance to set grow after this investment

:38:10.:38:15.

out our stall, talk about skills and people we have here. We have a young

:38:15.:38:19.

population and we want to find jobs for them. Twitter made another

:38:19.:38:25.

population and we want to find jobs announcement in Dublin this week. .

:38:25.:38:33.

Is the corporation tax differential still a deciding factor in where

:38:33.:38:37.

investments are made? For the differential remains, big companies

:38:37.:38:41.

continue to choose the Republic over Northern Ireland. It depends what

:38:41.:38:45.

companies want. If they want to look Northern Ireland. It depends what

:38:45.:38:49.

at profits, corporation tax will still be an issue, which is why we

:38:49.:38:54.

will continue to engage with the Prime Minister on that. He has

:38:54.:38:58.

delayed a decision until after the Scottish referendum but we will

:38:58.:39:02.

continue to push on the issue and will have meetings with the Prime

:39:02.:39:05.

Minister while he is here, but there are other things we can do for

:39:05.:39:10.

companies around the world. We are cost competitive, we have the

:39:10.:39:14.

skills, we are a gateway into Europe and the UK, so we had been pushing

:39:14.:39:19.

all those buttons and that is why we continue to do well in relation to

:39:19.:39:26.

foreign direct investment. This is happening against a background of

:39:26.:39:30.

disagreement on political issues, outstanding issues politicians

:39:30.:39:31.

disagreement on political issues, haven't yet found common ground on.

:39:31.:39:35.

I am thinking of the Maze Long Kesh project, and the hangover of issues

:39:35.:39:42.

on flags and parades. We will talk about Twaddell Avenue later.

:39:42.:39:47.

Yesterday, a senior Orangemen called for the protest to be upscaled as

:39:47.:39:51.

far as civil disobedience. That's not going to help persuade investors

:39:51.:39:54.

to choose Northern Ireland next week, is it? We defend the right of

:39:54.:40:01.

people to protest on any issue, but what must happen, and I make this

:40:01.:40:06.

clear, people must remain within the law of the land, what we do not want

:40:06.:40:13.

to see happen, and we are unfortunately did, some people

:40:13.:40:17.

during the flag protest went out to protest and things went further than

:40:17.:40:21.

they should have, and those young people now have a criminal

:40:21.:40:22.

conviction, and I do not want to see people now have a criminal

:40:22.:40:27.

young people in Belfast or anywhere else blighted with a criminal

:40:27.:40:30.

conviction for something they will regret, and people need to step back

:40:30.:40:35.

and look at that when they talk about what they are doing. We have

:40:35.:40:41.

just shown viewers pictures from yesterday to your DUP colleagues,

:40:41.:40:47.

one of them your fellow executive Minister Nelson McCausland, standing

:40:47.:40:49.

behind the Orangemen, flanked by Minister Nelson McCausland, standing

:40:49.:40:50.

comment loyalists, as he called for Minister Nelson McCausland, standing

:40:50.:40:56.

civil disobedience. What kind of message to you think that send it?

:40:56.:41:03.

We are clear in the party that we believe people have a right to

:41:03.:41:06.

protest, we believe the Parades Commission have failed miserably and

:41:07.:41:09.

protest, we believe the Parades we welcome the fact that Secretary

:41:09.:41:11.

protest, we believe the Parades of State has moved to do away with

:41:11.:41:14.

those commissioners who sit on the Parades Commission. We want to see

:41:14.:41:19.

the complete end of the Parades Commission and we're looking at the

:41:19.:41:24.

Richard Haass talks to that about, because we cannot continue with

:41:24.:41:28.

people 's rights being denied by the Parades Commission. We need to look

:41:28.:41:30.

people 's rights being denied by the at the fundamentals of the Parades

:41:30.:41:34.

Commission. The fact we have a commission which negotiates with

:41:34.:41:39.

people then decides, we have a dual role for the Parades Commission, and

:41:39.:41:42.

I have always said right back to when it was created that that was

:41:43.:41:45.

folly and should not have been the case. We have seen the workings of

:41:46.:41:50.

that over time, and we need to see the end of the commission. But do we

:41:50.:41:57.

not also need to see an end to the unrest on the streets, an end to the

:41:57.:42:02.

Twaddell Avenue protest? Is costing £50,000 a day to please. People have

:42:02.:42:07.

rights but they also have responsibilities, and do you think

:42:07.:42:12.

Nelson McCausland standing on that platform, a fellow member of your

:42:12.:42:18.

party, is making your job of bringing investment into Northern

:42:18.:42:23.

Ireland more difficult? I hope Nelson will have been there, and

:42:23.:42:28.

exercising his right, but also his responsibility, as he always does in

:42:28.:42:33.

those occasions. He will have been bringing camp to the area and

:42:33.:42:36.

talking to people to make sure things do not get out of hand, and I

:42:36.:42:42.

defend his right to be there. Do you want to see more civil disobedience

:42:42.:42:48.

on the streets? No, I have said I want people to keep within the law

:42:48.:42:53.

because we do not want people to be recipients of criminal records and

:42:54.:42:59.

that is not where we want to be, but we must see that Northern Ireland

:42:59.:43:03.

has moved forward a great deal since I was a young person, and we have

:43:03.:43:10.

seen that Northern Ireland now receives more inward investment than

:43:10.:43:13.

anywhere else in the UK, apart from Greater London, head of population.

:43:13.:43:19.

I am proud of that and I will make sure we continue to work on that and

:43:19.:43:22.

I am proud of that and I will make continue to say to investors this is

:43:22.:43:25.

a good place to visit, and a good place to set up business. That will

:43:25.:43:32.

be my message in the coming days. Arlene Foster, thank you for joining

:43:32.:43:36.

us. As we heard, the Orange Order is now

:43:36.:43:40.

threatening to intensify the dispute at Twaddell Avenue, taking it to the

:43:40.:43:43.

level of civil disobedience. The dispute is already costing £50,000 a

:43:43.:43:46.

day to police, according to the Chief Constable. Our political

:43:46.:43:48.

correspondent, Gareth Gordon, visited the Twaddell protest camp

:43:48.:43:54.

earlier in the week. Early evening, Woodvale Road, North Belfast, and a

:43:54.:43:57.

earlier in the week. Early evening, few hundred people have braved the

:43:57.:44:01.

rain to protest. They have done it more than 80 times since three

:44:01.:44:05.

Orange lodges were stopped from returning their return -- from

:44:05.:44:08.

completing their return journey past are going in July. Band members are

:44:08.:44:16.

wearing masks to hide their identity since last week's decision that they

:44:16.:44:20.

are breaking the law by playing music along the route, past police

:44:20.:44:25.

lines at the interface. Although it remains peaceful, there are other

:44:25.:44:31.

masks on view. Nearly three months on from the 12th of July, this is

:44:31.:44:36.

the nightly reality in Twaddell Avenue. There is no sign of it

:44:36.:44:43.

ending soon. Not far away, some people on the nationalist side the

:44:43.:44:50.

Koran. -- look on. Myself and other locals have been volunteering to

:44:51.:44:55.

walk the streets on the side to keep young people away from what has been

:44:55.:45:00.

happening, so it has been a strange experience. But in Twaddell, some

:45:00.:45:05.

believe the action should be stepped up. At every stage, it is other

:45:05.:45:13.

people who have escalated it, not us. The time may come when it is up

:45:13.:45:21.

to the people in this area and the people who support us to up the ante

:45:21.:45:33.

and to escalate. Gareth Gordon reporting. Sam McBride

:45:33.:45:37.

and Susan McKay are with me. What do you make of what was said yesterday

:45:37.:45:41.

at Twaddell Avenue? This upscaling to the devil of civil 's obedience.

:45:42.:45:48.

It shows the protest isn't going to end. I think the issue is that the

:45:48.:45:52.

It shows the protest isn't going to language is ambiguous. Arlene Foster

:45:52.:45:55.

is making clear, reading between the lines, that she is not keen to see

:45:55.:45:58.

is making clear, reading between the any upscaling of the protest, but

:45:58.:46:02.

defending the right of people to protest. I think the Orangemen who

:46:02.:46:09.

stood up yesterday, the protest was peaceful and lawful but had some

:46:10.:46:14.

element of disruption to wider committee life. The difficulty is

:46:14.:46:19.

that in the past when Orange leaders said things like this, it has not

:46:19.:46:25.

always been received in that way by people and perhaps they need to be

:46:25.:46:28.

clear what civil disobedience they advocate and what they don't. We had

:46:28.:46:34.

an instance earlier in the year where people talk about blocking

:46:34.:46:38.

roads, but that is illegal and the police made that clear. For a period

:46:38.:46:44.

that please let it go one during the flag protest, then these little to

:46:44.:46:49.

stop it echoes as Arlene Foster said people now have criminal records, so

:46:49.:46:54.

there are consequences. It is not yet clear if the Orange Order is in

:46:54.:46:59.

control of what is happening in Belfast or even if the political

:46:59.:47:04.

parties are. Susan, you visited the camp during the week. What did you

:47:04.:47:06.

parties are. Susan, you visited the make of what you saw and what people

:47:06.:47:13.

said you? It was pathetic, I felt, because it is like a throwback to

:47:13.:47:17.

Drumcree all over again. It is the same old rhetoric, they are getting

:47:18.:47:23.

everything and Unionism gets nothing and that is hatred of unionist

:47:23.:47:27.

culture, and I don't really see what the DUP is playing out in re

:47:27.:47:32.

engaging with that kind of negative pre-agreement politics, because I

:47:32.:47:38.

think Arlene Foster is a very able minister, she speaks very well in

:47:38.:47:43.

terms of investment, but she must know it is a very mixed message that

:47:43.:47:47.

is being sent out where you have a government minister standing,

:47:47.:47:52.

wanting to be seen on TV flanked by loyalists and by the Orange Order,

:47:52.:47:56.

saying they are going to go as far as civil 's obedience, at the same

:47:56.:48:01.

time as she knows investors are coming to Northern Ireland because

:48:01.:48:05.

they know that like they believe we have a stable police here that like

:48:05.:48:11.

a stable PC, the rhetoric that I heard up at that so-called peace

:48:12.:48:13.

a stable PC, the rhetoric that I camp was very belligerent and full

:48:13.:48:21.

of hatred and rage and self-pity. Was that wattage and eight why the

:48:22.:48:28.

eye there and why the annoyed? No, because it all comes back to no

:48:28.:48:32.

surrender and the fact the DUP has gone into power with Sinn Fein and a

:48:32.:48:36.

return to the notion we can go back gone into power with Sinn Fein and a

:48:36.:48:39.

to the past ready Orange Order can marks were wanted, and there is this

:48:40.:48:47.

refusal to accept that nowadays compromise is necessary in all

:48:47.:48:53.

situations and there has been acts of bad faith in relation to talking

:48:53.:48:59.

about talks, which they have been saying since July, but they haven't

:48:59.:49:05.

yet sat down and done so. We should note that if the parade had passed

:49:05.:49:10.

yesterday at 9am, when most of us were in their beds, in a limited

:49:10.:49:15.

form without music, the camp would not be there. Anyway, yes there are

:49:15.:49:20.

serious problems, there is the potential for disorder, but there is

:49:21.:49:26.

intransigent on the part of people like Gerry Kelly who are saying even

:49:26.:49:28.

at a time well after the 12th, when like Gerry Kelly who are saying even

:49:28.:49:31.

the parade has been stopped, they will still not lead it through in

:49:31.:49:37.

any time. It is most disturbing to see young people in masks in that

:49:37.:49:41.

footage, some of them are Halloween masks and people are making light of

:49:41.:49:46.

that, but there are also young people seen with balaclava type

:49:46.:49:49.

masks. That is very menacing, even if it is not intended as anything

:49:49.:49:52.

other than a bit of a show. week gone by in 60 seconds. The

:49:52.:50:11.

Executive's top two agreed on one thing, 1000 new call centre jobs in

:50:11.:50:18.

Belfast. Agreement over the ultra-rare showpiece centre has not

:50:18.:50:26.

been so easy. The refusal to honour a government commitment has been

:50:26.:50:31.

difficult for me. Orangemen were knocked back again over Ardoyne.

:50:31.:50:37.

There was a statement made from all those involved, and I was one, that

:50:37.:50:43.

they would return them no matter what the bridge commission decision

:50:43.:50:48.

was, they would return to dialogue. The SDLP the bike support for naming

:50:48.:50:55.

a new replay Park after an IRA hunger striker. And if you present

:50:56.:51:02.

at the Tory conference after is a prize cabinet reshuffle involving

:51:02.:51:03.

at the Tory conference after is a Theresa Villiers. Please give a warm

:51:03.:51:09.

welcome to the Secretary of State for Scotland.

:51:09.:51:14.

A bit of a nightmare for trees of the leaders there. That factories of

:51:14.:51:22.

years. In the Republic, Enda Kenny has been

:51:22.:51:26.

dealt an embarrassing defeat over the future of the Seanad. The

:51:26.:51:28.

Taoiseach had proposed abolishing the upper house, claiming it would

:51:28.:51:32.

save 20 million euros a year. He was opposed by a small but vocal

:51:32.:51:35.

campaign group, and on Friday, voters decided they wanted to keep

:51:35.:51:39.

their Senators. Let's get more from journalist Diarmaid Fleming in

:51:39.:51:42.

Dublin. Nobody really expected this outcome. What happened? This was a

:51:42.:51:49.

shock. All the polls beforehand indicated a lead of up to 70% for

:51:49.:51:55.

the government side. It seems that a large number of no voters,

:51:55.:52:01.

especially voters from the east of the country and Dublin, decided

:52:01.:52:04.

against backing the government on this. The government fought a really

:52:04.:52:09.

inept campaign. Enda Kenny proposed this in 2009 without any discussion

:52:10.:52:15.

with his own party, yet decided not to take part in a debate on this, so

:52:15.:52:20.

it was a campaign where the leader had decided not to sit in the

:52:20.:52:26.

driver's have and it was derailed. Will it damage Enda Kenny? It will.

:52:26.:52:33.

No one wants to lead a proposal like this and then be rejected, but I

:52:33.:52:37.

think there is a feeling that the Seanad is not that important here.

:52:37.:52:42.

The big issue is the economy. People are under pressure from austerity

:52:42.:52:47.

and next week there is a budget. Coming one after the other, a Seanad

:52:47.:52:54.

defeat and then an unpopular budget, we will see a combination where the

:52:54.:53:01.

effect on Enda Kenny, we will see what that will be. In one of the

:53:01.:53:07.

Kiwis and is for getting rid of the Seanad was that it would save 20

:53:07.:53:11.

million euros a year, the referendum cost 14 million. I don't think the

:53:11.:53:18.

money was that they can issue. Enda Kenny thought this was a populist

:53:18.:53:25.

issue, to have fewer politicians, but it didn't seem to matter to

:53:25.:53:30.

people. 20 million euros is pretty small change in the scheme of

:53:30.:53:34.

things. It is not something people feel in their pay packets but the

:53:34.:53:38.

argument was that the opposition that those sums weren't adding up,

:53:38.:53:45.

and that added to the ineptitude and the feeling this was not a serious

:53:45.:53:47.

and that added to the ineptitude and campaign, that they hadn't done

:53:48.:53:51.

their songs on something basic. There are people who think the

:53:51.:53:55.

Seanad is important for Northern Ireland because significant figures

:53:55.:53:59.

from the North, important voices down the years, have found a

:54:00.:54:03.

platform in the Republic and have fed into political debate then

:54:03.:54:08.

there. Empty can of people like Seamus Mallon, Gordon Wilson. Gordon

:54:08.:54:17.

Wilson had a huge impact here. He was the father of Marie Wilson, who

:54:17.:54:20.

was murdered in Enniskillen. His contribution was major but his

:54:20.:54:24.

effort to reach out to the other side from the point of view, to the

:54:24.:54:30.

unionist little establishment, was never going to grab a foothold

:54:30.:54:34.

because unit would not want to see them what they see as a foreign

:54:34.:54:39.

parliament, so it did have some impact in that way, but the Seanad

:54:39.:54:46.

was seen by most people as a house for political insiders, those who

:54:46.:54:48.

failed at rejection that like collections, and it was used by many

:54:49.:54:56.

political parties as a platform for future political ambition. Thank

:54:56.:55:05.

you, Derek Fleming. Sam McBride and Susan McKay with me still. Would you

:55:05.:55:12.

gobsmacked by the result? I was surprised. I think it is a good sign

:55:12.:55:17.

because sometimes you get the impression people in the Republic

:55:17.:55:21.

are in despair, and they was a much higher turnout than anticipated. A

:55:21.:55:24.

lot of people voted no, including myself, not because we necessarily

:55:24.:55:30.

think the Seanad works well but because the campaign the government

:55:31.:55:34.

ranks was so insultingly simplistic and arrogant, and the decision by

:55:34.:55:40.

the Taoiseach not to even take part in it, I think people were saying

:55:40.:55:42.

the Taoiseach not to even take part don't take us for granted, but this

:55:42.:55:46.

is a chance to make the Seanad a meaningful body because it really

:55:46.:55:52.

isn't. You mentioned some people who were included in the Seanad, a lot

:55:52.:55:59.

of people think of WB Yeats, but in reality it has an performed for many

:55:59.:56:06.

years. Sam, any thoughts on this? I was thrilled, it is not major

:56:06.:56:14.

restriction, but I think it obviously used to be the case, it

:56:14.:56:20.

was a lovely chamber and still exist for committee meetings, but it is a

:56:20.:56:24.

constraint on the absolute power of legislator, and the Lords has been

:56:24.:56:30.

criticised massively in recent years and it should be reformed, but as a

:56:30.:56:36.

principle I think it is good. It worked on the impact for Gerry Adams

:56:36.:56:38.

principle I think it is good. It of the verdict in his brother Liam

:56:38.:56:40.

Adams's case during the week. It is of the verdict in his brother Liam

:56:40.:56:47.

not good for him. It will damage him with some Republicans, but when you

:56:47.:56:54.

have someone who denies that they have been leader of an organisation

:56:54.:56:58.

that ordered people, I am not sure allegations about this will be

:56:58.:57:03.

really damaging. I think in the longer term it will be, because

:57:03.:57:06.

more affordable homes needed, but we have no time. Andrew, back to you.

:57:06.:57:15.

Our next guest is no stranger to controversy, a former UKIP MEP he

:57:15.:57:22.

recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including

:57:23.:57:43.

describing foreign countries receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'

:57:43.:57:46.

and joking that a group of UKIP women who didn't clean behind their

:57:46.:57:49.

fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in the European Parliament as an

:57:49.:57:52.

independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent

:57:52.:57:55.

events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly

:57:55.:58:10.

be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails

:58:10.:58:16.

within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the one

:58:16.:58:20.

that is out of touch. Everybody knows me, a bit like the Marmite

:58:20.:58:26.

joke, they love me or they hate me but I have always told me like it

:58:26.:58:36.

is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the

:58:36.:58:40.

French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.

:58:40.:58:46.

I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you make

:58:46.:58:51.

a joke any more? I am long in the tooth now to do political

:58:51.:58:54.

correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing

:58:54.:59:06.

well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are

:59:07.:59:10.

picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are

:59:10.:59:16.

their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is

:59:16.:59:21.

not the way I do things. You disgrace me. We are joined now with

:59:21.:59:27.

a suitable distance between us by the independent MEP for Yorkshire

:59:27.:59:34.

and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You said this weekend that you have to

:59:34.:59:40.

be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I

:59:40.:59:50.

am just an ordinary bloke from the rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:50.:59:52.

is. I did not come into politics to rugby club likes to tell it as it

:59:52.:59:56.

save my country from the clutches of the awful, evil... That is why I am

:59:56.:00:02.

in politics, and that is why I joined UKIP, and I am still a

:00:02.:00:06.

member, and I will still be voting UKIP. GUI except that your

:00:06.:00:14.

ability... Do you accept that your behaviour spoiled the UKIP

:00:14.:00:16.

conference? We were both born in behaviour spoiled the UKIP

:00:16.:00:21.

same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward

:00:21.:00:27.

and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my

:00:27.:00:33.

question? I am in this for my country and intent to do the best I

:00:33.:00:37.

can, sitting at my time as an independent for my country, and that

:00:37.:00:39.

can, sitting at my time as an will involve getting UKIP

:00:39.:00:42.

re-elected. They are the only game in town, the only party that will

:00:43.:00:48.

get as out. Shouldn't you have been more careful and not become a

:00:48.:00:54.

liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of

:00:54.:00:58.

perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a

:00:58.:01:03.

one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe

:01:03.:01:06.

meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything

:01:06.:01:12.

about me or anything about UKIP, Andrew. It tells you about your

:01:12.:01:15.

profession, the profession of journalism, it is all about

:01:16.:01:19.

journalism - it is not about UKIP or me, it was the journalists' reaction

:01:19.:01:26.

to a small joke at a meeting. And also Nigel Farage's reaction - is

:01:26.:01:30.

UKIP a one-man party? I do myself, unless I had a commended.

:01:30.:01:40.

Personality, the most unbelievable force of personality to collapse a

:01:40.:01:54.

party conference. Nigel Farage has been a friend of mine for 20 years,

:01:54.:01:58.

and may I remind you that in June and July UK was slipping in the

:01:58.:02:03.

polls, and when I made my statement about overseas aid, we went back to

:02:03.:02:08.

18%? I am not an electoral liability, I never was, I am a vote

:02:08.:02:14.

getter. As you know, there is a difference between cause and

:02:14.:02:17.

correlation, but let me show you what Nigel Farage had to say about

:02:17.:02:21.

you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip of that. We are not here to win

:02:21.:02:28.

friends amongst the liberal elite, and Godfrey's problem was that he

:02:28.:02:32.

was making comments about women, and that is not part of the party

:02:32.:02:37.

manifesto. Don't you need to reflect that you are too outrageous, too

:02:37.:02:41.

politically incorrect even for UKIP? Well, you see, to a certain extent I

:02:41.:02:44.

politically incorrect even for UKIP? have been gagged on other subjects.

:02:44.:02:49.

I am a libertarian, I wanted to talk about flat tax. I thought David

:02:49.:02:53.

Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been

:02:53.:02:57.

gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of

:02:57.:03:01.

it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown

:03:02.:03:06.

you, they want to be a more mainstream professional party

:03:06.:03:11.

machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might

:03:11.:03:15.

have a point, but I am speaking to you from Hull, and if you look at

:03:15.:03:20.

our results in Rotherham and Barnsley, and very recently in

:03:20.:03:23.

Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things

:03:23.:03:28.

in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You look

:03:28.:03:32.

like the one who was sitting in a bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of

:03:32.:03:38.

course it isn't, we are getting 24% of the vote in by-elections, of

:03:38.:03:42.

course it is not. Boy, wouldn't the main parties and the establishment

:03:42.:03:48.

love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as

:03:48.:03:54.

an independence against UKIP in the European elections? Almost certainly

:03:54.:04:00.

not, although by no political support is ephemeral, if the

:04:00.:04:03.

elections were next week, I could assure you I would win the seat. I

:04:03.:04:08.

do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate

:04:08.:04:13.

again? We do not know, probably not, but I shall certainly be trying to

:04:13.:04:18.

help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in

:04:18.:04:21.

Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the

:04:21.:04:26.

fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance

:04:26.:04:30.

to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I

:04:30.:04:34.

am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey

:04:34.:04:39.

Bloom will soon be back in UKIP, we take it? For those of you who were

:04:39.:04:45.

not watching there, he just shrugged! Thank you very much for

:04:45.:04:50.

joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do

:04:50.:04:56.

not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because

:04:56.:05:00.

they think they are a smooth, slick, professional party. If anything, the

:05:00.:05:05.

absence of PR polish is the reason for their popularity, so these are

:05:05.:05:09.

skirmishes are not a problem, and more than that, Godfrey Bloom does

:05:09.:05:13.

make Nigel Farage look better. Even in that clip from Andrew Marr, he

:05:13.:05:18.

looked more statesman-like in juxtaposition with someone like

:05:18.:05:20.

Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked the

:05:20.:05:26.

conference, it was a disaster, they got tonnes of publicity but not the

:05:26.:05:29.

kind they wanted. But you have to say he does actor for the

:05:29.:05:35.

journalists. I thought he was sexist long before anyone else, he used to

:05:35.:05:38.

have an incredible page on his website entitled Godfrey Bloom:

:05:38.:05:43.

Misogynist, and the proof that he was not was that he was once

:05:43.:05:47.

photographed with a girls' rugby team, and we lived for those

:05:47.:05:51.

characters in politics. He does make Nigel Farage look better, but is sin

:05:51.:05:55.

was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It

:05:55.:06:01.

sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be back

:06:01.:06:07.

on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a beer in that built the Chechen, it

:06:07.:06:12.

sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP but

:06:12.:06:16.

does not stand as an MEP at the European Parliamentary elections. --

:06:16.:06:21.

in that built the kitchen. It is right to say the electorate are

:06:21.:06:23.

sophisticated and they know what this party is for, what characters

:06:23.:06:27.

it has. You did not need what Godfrey Bloom said for people to

:06:27.:06:31.

know he is sexist, and the electorate know what they go using

:06:31.:06:35.

UKIP four. They are using it as the vehicle to beat over the head the

:06:35.:06:39.

three established parties. They will probably do it in the European

:06:39.:06:42.

elections and give them first place. The big question is what happens in

:06:42.:06:53.

the general election, and the problem that Nigel Farage was making

:06:54.:06:55.

the general election, and the an Andrew Marr this morning is that

:06:55.:06:58.

he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and

:06:58.:07:00.

councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need

:07:00.:07:02.

discipline. MPs return to the Commons next week, and there is a

:07:02.:07:04.

ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.

:07:05.:07:08.

David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women

:07:08.:07:12.

among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?

:07:12.:07:16.

He was talking about it earlier this week. I think we are getting there

:07:16.:07:21.

in Britain, but we have a long way to go. If you look at the top

:07:21.:07:25.

businesses in Britain, there are not nearly enough women in the

:07:25.:07:28.

boardroom. If you look at politics in Britain, there aren't nearly

:07:28.:07:32.

enough women around the Cabinet table. So I think, in every walk of

:07:32.:07:37.

life, whether it is the judiciary, whether it is politics, business,

:07:37.:07:41.

there is a lot further to go. Before the last election, we only had 19

:07:41.:07:46.

women Members of Parliament. We now have around 50, so we have made a

:07:46.:07:50.

big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we

:07:50.:07:55.

need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in top

:07:55.:08:01.

places, you're not just missing out on 50% of the talent, you are

:08:01.:08:04.

missing out on a lot more than 50% of the talent, and I think she

:08:04.:08:06.

missing out on a lot more than 50% probably has a point. The prime is

:08:06.:08:12.

that going for the women's vote. Is there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:12.:08:15.

think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I

:08:15.:08:19.

will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to men

:08:19.:08:25.

called Dave who went to maudlin college. So obviously they are not

:08:25.:08:38.

fishing in the biggest talent pool, but there are numbers. Esther McVey

:08:38.:08:45.

has been selling a very difficult brief in work and pensions, you

:08:45.:08:48.

could see people being given bigger roles. Helen is pretty sure. We are

:08:48.:08:55.

told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary

:08:55.:08:58.

level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot

:08:58.:09:05.

James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.

:09:05.:09:09.

What is impressive is that some body like Andrea Leadsom, who is really

:09:09.:09:15.

impressive, worked in the City, very smart, really big on important

:09:15.:09:18.

social issues like early is intervention, she should still be in

:09:18.:09:22.

there, but she fell out with George Osborne when she dared to criticise

:09:22.:09:25.

him a few years ago over Ed Balls and the LIBOR so-called scandal. If

:09:26.:09:33.

you are doing it on talent, Andrea Leadsom should have a senior

:09:33.:09:36.

position in government. So expectation, if he does not do this

:09:36.:09:41.

now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to

:09:41.:09:48.

promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female

:09:48.:09:56.

in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with

:09:56.:10:00.

women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember

:10:00.:10:03.

that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally

:10:03.:10:07.

amongst women voters. Many times there would not have been a

:10:07.:10:10.

Conservative government without the women of this country. This began to

:10:10.:10:14.

change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?

:10:14.:10:19.

Was it policy change, or the personalities at the top are now

:10:19.:10:21.

much more hostile to women, or less, personalities at the top are now

:10:21.:10:26.

Brent doubled to female voters? It is such a deep historical trend that

:10:26.:10:29.

I do not think one reshuffle will change it. -- or less competent

:10:29.:10:38.

civil. The English party conference season is over, do you share the

:10:38.:10:45.

consensus view that Ed Miliband came out best of the three party leaders?

:10:45.:10:52.

I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still

:10:52.:10:57.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems

:10:57.:10:59.

minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the

:10:59.:11:03.

latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you

:11:03.:11:08.

wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the

:11:08.:11:15.

living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are

:11:15.:11:19.

booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but if

:11:19.:11:22.

they were, it is tougher to go on about living standards. George

:11:23.:11:31.

Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband making a great thing about living

:11:31.:11:34.

standards, but then they say under their breath, this is global forces,

:11:34.:11:39.

which mean that inflation is outstripping wage increases. And

:11:39.:11:44.

you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that

:11:44.:11:47.

will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are

:11:47.:11:51.

people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still

:11:51.:11:54.

struggle. But if it is global forces, it is difficult to blame the

:11:54.:11:56.

struggle. But if it is global government for that. Body being

:11:57.:12:01.

noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition

:12:01.:12:07.

than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he

:12:07.:12:11.

in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of

:12:11.:12:15.

references to the Labour leader in Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr

:12:15.:12:21.

Obama's speech on a similar topic, living standards. Was the mentioning

:12:21.:12:30.

Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the same language, he has not gone that

:12:30.:12:35.

far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would be more worried now, because Labour

:12:35.:12:39.

through the kitchen sink at their conference. They came out with the

:12:39.:12:42.

biggest policy announcements they could, compulsory apprenticeships,

:12:42.:12:48.

the energy freeze on prices, and it generated a poll boost which has

:12:48.:12:51.

fizzled away within ten days. I do not know where they go from here.

:12:51.:12:57.

What is significant with Ed Miliband is that in his three party

:12:57.:13:00.

conference beaches, he has set the tone for responsible capitalism, the

:13:00.:13:04.

one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,

:13:04.:13:08.

they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you have

:13:08.:13:15.

now is an intellectual framework that translates into policies. The

:13:15.:13:19.

polls to watch are not the ones after the conferences, but at the

:13:19.:13:22.

end of the month when it has also pulled down. They will tell us where

:13:22.:13:27.

we are going. We will have to go ourselves now. Thank you to our

:13:27.:13:30.

guests. The Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,

:13:30.:13:34.

and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is

:13:34.:13:37.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:37.:13:40.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Including Lord Prescott on press regulation, Godfrey Bloom MEP on his departure from UKIP and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna on the privatisation of Royal Mail. Also on the programme, Margot James MP and City AM's Allister Heath go head to head on 'help to buy'.


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