13/10/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


13/10/2013

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by the new Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael, Ken Clarke, Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.


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Transcript


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Morning, welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this morning's

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Sunday Politics. We have Alastair Charmichael. We'll ask him what he

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has that his predecessor Michael Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps

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going on and on and on. He'll bang his drum for Europe.

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Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

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will be with us. We'll ask him for the inside scoop.

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And in Northern Ireland, the Prime Diane Abbott will

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And in Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister came and delivered his best

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sales pitch, says we've misunderstood the problem

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of human trafficking and that men are the forgotten victims.

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And with me, as always, three pundits who we try to shuffle out of

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a job but failed miserably, Mick watt, Miranda Green Andijan an

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Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if their lives depended on it

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throughout the programme. Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving

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to the left or right? Last week, a chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen

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a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could

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indicate he moved back to the middle. New shadows Work and

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Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the

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Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools

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after all. Here he is on the BBC earlier this morning.

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I've one message for you and viewers. If you are a group of

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parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting up a

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school in areas where you need new school place, the Labour Government

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will be on your side. That's free schools. We are in favour of

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enterprise and innovation. It will schools. We are in favour of

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be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It

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will have properly qualified teachers in these schools. And

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thirdly, systems of financial accountability. What is going on

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with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael

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Gove's policy. I'm not sure if the policies have

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changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and free

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schools. A significant change of tone. It was interesting the

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reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge

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of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.

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Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying

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Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip

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from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of

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need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,

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we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set

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these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,

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so far the debate has been polarised. You've had the Michael

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Gove uber reformers in the department. This weekend, we've had

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leaked memos from one of Michael Gove's advisers which are extreme

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views about the state of education. And on the other side teaching

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unions. It hasn't led to a healthy debate which represents what parents

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want out of schools or employers. This is a huge move from the Labour

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Party to sound more reasonable. They have been silent on education which

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is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?

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They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free

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schools for those who have them? You only apiece the focus groups by

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changing the policy substantially. I always thought a test for this

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Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed Miliband would promote Blair rights,

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it is clear he did, it is whether they would be allowed to be Blair

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rights. When Stephen Twigg carried the education portfolio it was clear

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his own views were closer to the Government than he was allowed to

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let on. He was constrained. There is no point of giving Tristram Hunt

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this job if he is not allowed to say what he thinks. I wouldn't mind

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betting privately he thinks free schools should be available beyond

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just areas of need. He hasn't yet defined need. It could be, we've run

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out of places or the existing schools are so bad we need schools.

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If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they

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are in schools rated as unsatisfactory that's no different.

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He wanted to say he was in favour of higher educational standards and

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rigour, he had to tell the audience he has a Cambridge PhD to attack

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Michael Gove. That was difficult for Tristram Hunt he had to mention

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that. Is that worth something, a PhD from Cambridge? Obviously to him it

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is. He said they would demand proper teaching qualifications. That could

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count him out. He does some teaching? Independent schools do not

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have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never

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been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow

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free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to

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say that. Watch this space. The dust settled

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after the party resufficients. Do the Tories look a bit more like

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Britain. Do the Tories look more like Labour? Here's guiles.

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#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,

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rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping

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beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in

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and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street with

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a smile on their face after going to see the boss. The once who are to be

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sacked, they usually go round the back. Not this time. No, something

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new alerted us all. The-PM started it. It was an extraordinary day. I

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can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties

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changing ministerial teams at the same time. The fact is that

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resufficient happened on Twitter. Not that the press stopped watching

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the door as well. News was a bit slow in coming until Alastair

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Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm

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disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been

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able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one

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imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and

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on... And on... And on! #4 The welcomer, who was

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simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of

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the Home Office in conspiracy to let Norman Baker sing a tune.

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the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic

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cone... # #. The brutality of the Liberal

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Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet

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Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

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ranks were shifting too. The PM keen to boost the numbers of telegenic

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women walking into Government and turning perceptions around. He

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tipped a so-called flatcap to men from the north or more humble

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backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends

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of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers were

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learning of Labour's changes. Labour too knows the value of new young

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blood striding into the limelight. Again some with TV experience of

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that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de peer row would be hard to describe

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as hard left. But Blairbrushing the past out of the picture seemed to be

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the name of the day. Liam Byrne moved from higher profile roles.

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With Diane Abbott also gone, was this really a Blair right cull? It

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depends what you mean. Blair right used to mean someone who wanted Tony

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Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

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with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set

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of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair

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rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair

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are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

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over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted

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ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one

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angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.

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Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone

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standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get

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someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!

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And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins

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us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used

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in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm

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hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That

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you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not

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so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can

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hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

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Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

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you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of

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the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure

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that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about

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the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of

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Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is

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true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a

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real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?

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Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did

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delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,

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clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

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the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not

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comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as

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we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I

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will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

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remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about

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nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,

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their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

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more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if

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you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --

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poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing

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pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to

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save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the

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situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think

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anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people

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who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out

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next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

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that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

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party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

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were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in

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fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the

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Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for

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everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for

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a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could

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have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and

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for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in

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British politics for the last three-and-a-half years, Liberal

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Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition Government. I would not have

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survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I

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was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.

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So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.

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As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also of

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the referendum vote, opinion polls are a snapshot. They are not a

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prediction of what will happen in the future. I will be out there

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putting the case. Neither the next election nor the referendum is one

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or lost yet. One of the things I really want to be guarding against

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is the complacency which says because we are a good margin ahead

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today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

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Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As you know, wasn't for the Liberal

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Democrats. Not just talking about the polls. You came fourth in the

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real poll in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.

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You said you were happy to facial ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should

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David Cameron face him? I am happy to face anybody who wants to

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debate. Should David Cameron face him? No, because that allows Alex

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Salmond and the Scottish Nationalists to portray this as some

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sort of contest or choice between a vision of Scottish social democracy

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and English conservativism, which it is not. This is a debate that has to

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be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

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Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

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not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

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the person who should be debating with Alex Salmond is Alistair

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Darling. He has got a Scottish name and his family hails from the

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wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

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the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

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you referring to the campaign or Alistair Darling? I was not

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referring to Alistair Darling. I think what I was saying is that as

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we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

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are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the

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range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the

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arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle

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for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as

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somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to

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remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight

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distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single

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celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not

:18:15.:18:22.

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st

:18:22.:18:28.

of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

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anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is

:18:32.:18:37.

worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister

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who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken

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Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,

:18:51.:18:56.

more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I

:18:56.:19:04.

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is

:19:04.:19:10.

difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have

:19:10.:19:14.

a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.

:19:14.:19:20.

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

:19:20.:19:25.

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

:19:25.:19:31.

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

:19:31.:19:38.

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

:19:38.:19:48.

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

:19:48.:19:52.

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

:19:52.:19:57.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do

:19:57.:20:04.

you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a

:20:04.:20:08.

political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of

:20:08.:20:14.

politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good

:20:14.:20:18.

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

:20:18.:20:21.

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very

:20:21.:20:27.

difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every

:20:27.:20:31.

decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a

:20:31.:20:36.

bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my

:20:36.:20:41.

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

:20:41.:20:44.

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

:20:44.:20:51.

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

:20:51.:20:57.

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

:20:57.:21:05.

on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people

:21:05.:21:08.

accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of

:21:08.:21:11.

decisions they take as representatives, but this is a

:21:11.:21:16.

generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have

:21:16.:21:20.

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

:21:20.:21:24.

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is one

:21:24.:21:29.

of the most important things in politics. It will determine

:21:29.:21:33.

Britain's place in the modern world and determine whether our

:21:33.:21:37.

politicians are able to look after the living standards, the economy,

:21:37.:21:39.

the safety against terrorism. Last the living standards, the economy,

:21:39.:21:46.

summer you said that only extreme nationalists wanted a silly EU

:21:46.:21:54.

referendum. It follows your party must be full of extremely silly

:21:54.:21:59.

nationalists. The people who are desperate to have a referendum are

:21:59.:22:04.

all the people who actually want to leave the European Union. The

:22:04.:22:08.

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

:22:08.:22:13.

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing you

:22:13.:22:18.

read in the newspaper about what the commission is or is not doing, do

:22:18.:22:22.

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

:22:22.:22:30.

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

:22:30.:22:33.

there we can have a greater influence in events. That is not

:22:33.:22:39.

just how the politicians get on the world stage, it is how the

:22:39.:22:44.

politicians look after us when we face danger from terrorism is

:22:44.:22:49.

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

:22:49.:22:53.

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will give

:22:53.:23:00.

us a referendum. I had other engagements on the Friday concerned.

:23:00.:23:05.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

:23:05.:23:08.

seen voting for something your heart is not in. Let's be honest here.

:23:08.:23:16.

Look, many of your colleagues I have interviewed say that if the choice

:23:16.:23:25.

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

:23:25.:23:30.

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

:23:30.:23:34.

even on the status quo, wouldn't you? I haven't spent so long

:23:34.:23:42.

supporting the EU to leave now if I got chance. I think our economy is

:23:42.:23:46.

much stronger than it would have been if we were outside the EU. We

:23:46.:23:51.

have continued attracting investment, as in Washington last

:23:51.:23:55.

week. We are trying to roll forward the prospect of free trade and I

:23:55.:24:04.

have to reassure Americans that we are not likely to leave the EU to

:24:04.:24:09.

make sure they will invest here. That is true but it also needs

:24:09.:24:16.

reform. The cry for reform, which is echoed in other countries,

:24:16.:24:22.

particularly Germany, is a good one. Even if David Cameron came back with

:24:22.:24:26.

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

:24:26.:24:34.

Going off to be a small economy, and one which is dwindling in comparison

:24:34.:24:38.

with others, in the modern world it would be dangerous. I also think the

:24:38.:24:42.

dangers of the Middle East and the dangers of some of the countries

:24:42.:24:46.

between EU and Russia are considerable, we shouldn't

:24:46.:24:50.

disengage. I will take that as a yes. I do think reform can

:24:50.:24:55.

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

:24:55.:24:59.

with me, I trust they will be persuaded when David delivers his

:24:59.:25:04.

reforms. The latest poll gives Labour a ten point lead over the

:25:04.:25:09.

Tories and the reason why it has a ten point lead is because UKIP are

:25:09.:25:11.

up there with 18% of the vote and ten point lead is because UKIP are

:25:11.:25:17.

the Tory vote has slumped in the Paul to 27%. How would you see off

:25:17.:25:20.

UKIP? By saying you need a strong Paul to 27%. How would you see off

:25:20.:25:27.

and effective Government. We faced terrible problems. Every Government

:25:27.:25:34.

I have been in has been behind in the polls. This Government is not as

:25:34.:25:39.

popular as the previous Government I have served in under the three

:25:39.:25:43.

previous prime ministers. When you get an election, people have to ask

:25:43.:25:47.

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

:25:47.:25:54.

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

:25:54.:26:00.

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not see

:26:00.:26:05.

off UKIP. People will not listen to that. When people answer an opinion

:26:05.:26:11.

poll, they tell you how annoyed they are by something that has recently

:26:11.:26:17.

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

:26:17.:26:21.

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

:26:21.:26:28.

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

:26:28.:26:37.

us? They did take over a calamitous situation, and there are very

:26:37.:26:42.

important problems to be decided going forward. UKIP represents

:26:42.:26:49.

anti-immigration, anti-foreigners, anti-Europe, anti-politics but I

:26:49.:26:52.

don't think it will get 18% of the opinion -- the polls in any

:26:53.:27:00.

election. Thank you. Once upon a time, a

:27:00.:27:25.

politician whose career ended in disgrace might choose to lie low for

:27:25.:27:28.

a while, perhaps to spend a bit more time tending the tulips and doing

:27:28.:27:32.

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

:27:32.:27:35.

prison only five months ago but the former Energy Secretary is already

:27:35.:27:38.

back in the public eye - a column in the Guardian, a job with a renewable

:27:38.:27:42.

energy firm, even the odd TV interview. So is he working on a

:27:42.:27:44.

political rehabilitation? Chris Huhne, welcome to the Sunday

:27:44.:27:46.

Politics. The answer to that is clearly know, and thank you for

:27:47.:27:49.

inviting me back. You have set your career in politics is over so what

:27:49.:27:52.

does the future hold for you? I am happy doing what I am doing, I am

:27:52.:27:58.

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

:27:58.:28:04.

on that front in terms of business and work for think tanks and

:28:04.:28:07.

non-governmental organisations, and I am doing a column for the Guardian

:28:07.:28:12.

on Mondays. You obviously get a lot of material from the Sunday Politics

:28:12.:28:20.

to write about. Have you embarked on political rehabilitation? It was

:28:20.:28:23.

clear from the point of view of the George when I was sentenced, he

:28:23.:28:28.

said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had

:28:28.:28:32.

not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like

:28:32.:28:37.

you, Andrew, Ron doing the same thing. It was a deterrent effect for

:28:37.:28:44.

the public. That is I think why the prosecution was brought. I had not

:28:44.:28:48.

offended for ten years on this, either in terms of speeding

:28:48.:28:52.

points... But you are out to rehabilitate yourself in the public?

:28:52.:28:56.

I have been a journalist, rehabilitate yourself in the public?

:28:56.:29:18.

coalition to the bitter end? Or should they re-establish their own

:29:18.:29:22.

identity? My view is that the Coalition agreement is for the whole

:29:23.:29:28.

Parliament, and the Lib Dems are going to stay, and should stay. What

:29:28.:29:34.

would be a good result for the Lib Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15

:29:34.:29:40.

seats? I think it will be an interesting election because I think

:29:40.:29:45.

you will have essentially three party leaders, all of whom are

:29:45.:29:49.

unpopular. It is almost unprecedented that they have

:29:49.:29:52.

negative ratings so it will be a battle between the walking wounded.

:29:52.:29:59.

In those circumstances, in my view, the Lib Dems can come out very

:29:59.:30:05.

well. But you will lose seats, won't you? It is far too early to say. If

:30:05.:30:13.

the Liberal Democrats do badly in next year's European elections, you

:30:13.:30:18.

could come fourth on fifth behind the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's

:30:18.:30:24.

leadership be in jeopardy? I've been in countless cycles where we've had

:30:24.:30:32.

very low poll ratings. The normal pickup to the subsequent general

:30:32.:30:36.

election on average has been 10 percentage points. So he's not in

:30:36.:30:41.

jeopardy? I think Nick will be there at the next general election. I

:30:41.:30:44.

think he'll lead the party into the next general election. I expect

:30:44.:30:49.

we'll do much better than most people think. If we are heading for

:30:49.:30:53.

another hung Parliament, which is what the Liberal Democrats want.

:30:53.:30:58.

Let's be honest, you'd rather be in coalition with the Labour Party than

:30:58.:31:02.

have a repeat of the Conservatives? One of the key things I sawed to

:31:02.:31:07.

colleagues, whatever your personal preference, I used to be a Labour

:31:07.:31:11.

Party member, you can derive from that I'm on the left of centre of

:31:11.:31:16.

the party. I always said to my colleagues in the party, it is

:31:16.:31:20.

absolutely colleagues in the party, it is

:31:20.:31:22.

the we are in politics because we are Liberal Democrats, not because

:31:22.:31:25.

we are either Conservatives or second best Labour. If you don't

:31:25.:31:30.

take that view, you don't have any bargaining position when it comes to

:31:30.:31:34.

coalition. You have to be able, genuinely, to do a coalition with

:31:34.:31:38.

either of the other parties. I understand that, but you'd prefer

:31:39.:31:43.

Labour? Your personal preference really should not come into this. It

:31:43.:31:47.

is about making sure you get the best possible deal for the things

:31:47.:31:52.

that your voters have voted for. If you get that with one party rather

:31:52.:31:57.

than another, that's fine. You stand up for Liberal Democrat values, not

:31:57.:32:01.

for Conservative or Labour second best values. You said you're keeping

:32:01.:32:05.

up your interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise a

:32:05.:32:13.

temporary price freeze? There's been pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a

:32:13.:32:19.

sensible policy. It was tried in California in 2,000 and 2001 which

:32:19.:32:24.

led to blackouts. We had the Prime Minister promising we should sift

:32:24.:32:28.

everybody automatically to the lowest possible tariff. So

:32:28.:32:33.

unfortunately we're at the stage in the political cycle where we are

:32:33.:32:39.

getting clap trap. You're against the freeze? It is a bad idea when we

:32:39.:32:43.

are trying to encourage investment. When the market can give us some of

:32:43.:32:47.

the lowest gas and electricity prices in Europe. Britain has

:32:47.:32:51.

son-in-law of the lowest? Not our base price? The other European Ian

:32:51.:32:55.

prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our

:32:55.:32:59.

base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look

:32:59.:33:05.

at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after

:33:05.:33:07.

all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after

:33:07.:33:11.

. The Conservatives are claiming there are

:33:11.:33:15.

people. Why not cut some of these taxes and

:33:15.:33:33.

people. Why not cut some of these nones sense. It is coming

:33:33.:33:36.

people. Why not cut some of these should no better. One the-hip ok

:33:36.:33:46.

people. Why not cut some of these about this is one person who added

:33:46.:33:46.

green taxes is George Osborne with the

:33:46.:33:49.

green taxes is George Osborne with that? We put it into the coalition

:33:49.:33:52.

green taxes is George Osborne with agreement because the Conservatives

:33:52.:33:55.

green taxes is George Osborne with not want it. We do not need it to

:33:55.:33:59.

drive decarbonisation of the electricity system. It was a revenue

:33:59.:34:04.

raising measure by the Tories. It set off a whole load of hairs about

:34:04.:34:08.

green taxes which are now coming home to roost. Final point to you,

:34:08.:34:13.

wish we'd more time to talk, you're a big supporter of Leveson-style

:34:14.:34:19.

press regulation. Will you stop writing for The Guardian if it

:34:19.:34:23.

refuses to sign up to the Leveson charter? I think that's neither here

:34:23.:34:30.

nor there. The Guardian gives me a great platform. If it doesn't sign

:34:30.:34:34.

up to what you believe in will you support it? No because I'm sure

:34:34.:34:40.

they'll allow me to make that that point. I think newspapers will sign

:34:40.:34:45.

up for it. They've had a collapse in public trust and confidence in

:34:45.:34:49.

recent years. Unparalleled. They need a third party endorsement to

:34:49.:34:53.

say these guys have cleaned up their act. If they are going to get trust

:34:53.:34:57.

back and they will. When they haven't signed up, which they won't,

:34:57.:34:59.

you can You're watching the Sunday politics.

:34:59.:35:08.

Coming up in about 20 minutes, we'll talk to

:35:08.:35:09.

welcome to Sunday politics in Northern Ireland. They came, they

:35:09.:35:55.

saw, but will be invest? The Prime Minister made no apology. To analyse

:35:55.:36:05.

the outcome of the investment conference I am joined by a former

:36:05.:36:15.

chairman of investment NI, Stephen Kingon. We start today by looking at

:36:15.:36:34.

a week which saw two murders and a series of highly disruptive alerts.

:36:34.:36:42.

The racist was just yesterday. The M1was closed in both directions

:36:42.:36:44.

The racist was just yesterday. The while the army carried out

:36:44.:36:48.

controlled explosions, causing major delays for drivers. It was later

:36:48.:36:59.

declared and elaborates post. In another case it is not quite

:36:59.:37:04.

unclear, but regardless of who is responsible for these deaths it is a

:37:04.:37:12.

tragedy for their families. We still have a lot of work to do to bring

:37:12.:37:17.

the entire community along with us in this process of conflict

:37:17.:37:23.

transformation. What kind of impact is it having your home city of

:37:23.:37:29.

Derry? There has been a lot of anger across the city. There was a rally

:37:29.:37:35.

which was well attended. There is a strong feeling that people in the

:37:35.:37:40.

city do not want to return to the past. People felt that they had

:37:40.:37:47.

moved on with the City of Culture. If one puts aside the terrible

:37:47.:37:51.

events of the murders, more unfortunate and more worrying idea

:37:51.:37:57.

attempted bomb attacks. That is worrying people very severely. The

:37:57.:38:03.

City of Culture still has some way to run. It has been pretty

:38:03.:38:05.

City of Culture still has some way successful so far from a public

:38:05.:38:09.

City of Culture still has some way relations point of view. There has

:38:09.:38:11.

been a lot of good things said about relations point of view. There has

:38:11.:38:15.

the way that it has unfolded. Is there a real fear that dissident

:38:15.:38:19.

republicans are responsible and that they are making a point? We have to

:38:19.:38:25.

put the murder to one side. That has got faces a thick origins, we have

:38:25.:38:32.

to wait for the investigative process... You think it can have

:38:32.:38:36.

more to do with criminality than political ideology? That is the

:38:36.:38:41.

assumption, yes. We have to separate the murders. What we have to look at

:38:41.:38:52.

is the fact that we have significant sections of the community who feel

:38:52.:38:59.

disaffected from the peace process. That includes the recent situation

:38:59.:39:06.

in Derry, but also in north Belfast. The continuous marching debate that

:39:06.:39:12.

is going on and off first. -- in north Belfast. Society as a whole

:39:12.:39:19.

has responsibility to reach out and bring people into the process and

:39:19.:39:23.

address issues that they have that are outstanding to make them feel

:39:23.:39:26.

part of the journey. We will hear more from both of you. Against that

:39:26.:39:32.

backdrop, the Prime Minister was here selling Northern Ireland to

:39:32.:39:37.

international to the owners -- international developers. But the

:39:37.:39:44.

debate? David Cameron made no apology about selling the benefits

:39:44.:39:50.

of Northern Ireland. A big challenge remains here. The

:39:50.:39:53.

state sector is too big and the private sector is too small. We need

:39:53.:39:58.

to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy. Every politician here in

:39:58.:40:01.

Northern Ireland is committed to making sure that that rebalancing

:40:01.:40:07.

takes place. We are all agreed that we need to work on corporation tax

:40:07.:40:11.

so that we can make a final decision on the devolution of these powers by

:40:11.:40:16.

so that we can make a final decision next autumn. I make no apology for

:40:16.:40:20.

being a bit of a salesman today. Some say it is a bit undignified for

:40:20.:40:26.

a Prime Minister. I say nonsense. I am passionate about the power of

:40:26.:40:30.

business to create jobs and growth and I am passionate about what

:40:30.:40:34.

Northern Ireland has to offer. I am here today with the berries and poor

:40:34.:40:38.

message. Put your money in Northern Ireland and be part of this

:40:38.:40:43.

incredible success story. I am joined by Stephen King in, a former

:40:43.:40:56.

chairman of Invest NI. -- Stephen Kingon. We get in front of the Chief

:40:56.:41:05.

chairman of Invest NI. -- Stephen Executive is coming in here that we

:41:05.:41:09.

would not necessarily get to see without the investment conference.

:41:09.:41:10.

would not necessarily get to see It is only part of the process. It

:41:10.:41:14.

is a marketing event and then we have detailed work to follow up to

:41:14.:41:15.

nature that the investors that have have detailed work to follow up to

:41:15.:41:19.

logic will deliver those on the ground. Is it your view that having

:41:19.:41:26.

the Prime Minister involved and wrapping this in an international

:41:27.:41:29.

investment conference actually gets people into the room that you would

:41:29.:41:32.

not get access to under other circumstances? The event itself gets

:41:32.:41:37.

not get access to under other Chief Executive is in that we would

:41:37.:41:41.

not otherwise see. The same thing happened in Washington. But also we

:41:41.:41:47.

get a chance for investors who are already here to give the sort of

:41:47.:41:54.

story and testament to the potential investors. That is much more

:41:54.:41:57.

powerful than anything that we can do locally. 75% of companies who

:41:57.:42:05.

invest in Northern Ireland, as I understand it, reinvest. Once you

:42:05.:42:09.

get the FDIC it is very important. understand it, reinvest. Once you

:42:09.:42:17.

But that is only one segment. We have to increase the number of

:42:17.:42:21.

entrepreneurs and spin out companies that is part of the strategy. Wheels

:42:21.:42:29.

will have to scale and make our business development better -- we

:42:29.:42:36.

also have to. How do you judge the success or otherwise of this

:42:36.:42:39.

conference, how will we know if it has been a success? What we will see

:42:39.:42:46.

over the next 18 months to three years are various announcements.

:42:46.:42:49.

Some of them will have started at this conference. It takes a long

:42:49.:42:52.

time to do the detailed negotiations and then it takes longer to put the

:42:52.:42:56.

jobs on the ground because you have a situation where it, if you do a

:42:57.:43:05.

deal, you get a member of jobs from more to. But it takes several years

:43:05.:43:09.

to put those jobs on the ground. This is a continuous process. But

:43:09.:43:18.

other regions we give their eye teeth to -- would give their eye

:43:18.:43:21.

teeth to have the profile that we have as a small region within a

:43:21.:43:24.

country. You said that foreign have as a small region within a

:43:24.:43:30.

direct investment was part of the approach. But encouraging local

:43:30.:43:35.

entrepreneurs you have said is also important. Is Invest NI doing enough

:43:35.:43:40.

to encourage that part of the economy? Yes, if you look at the

:43:40.:43:48.

investment that Invest NI Putin, more than 50% goes indigenous

:43:48.:43:54.

companies. Foreign investment is very important as well because it

:43:54.:43:57.

shows to people that we are internationally competitive and it

:43:58.:44:02.

brings skill sets and industries that we do not always have your. It

:44:02.:44:04.

allows us to build a base. Even the that we do not always have your. It

:44:04.:44:11.

208 conference which came just that we do not always have your. It

:44:11.:44:15.

before the global financial crisis, we did see things like the New York

:44:15.:44:25.

Stock Exchange and the City comment. Paul Gosling, URI financial

:44:25.:44:27.

journalist, do you think invest NI Paul Gosling, URI financial

:44:27.:44:36.

is doing enough for that part of the framework -- you are a financial

:44:36.:44:48.

journalist? One of the fundamental problems we have is the shortage of

:44:48.:44:52.

skills and graduates in Northern Ireland. One third of graduates go

:44:52.:44:59.

off to Great Britain, half of those do not return. Those are the people

:44:59.:45:03.

that we would be expecting to set up businesses. Head we change that? We

:45:03.:45:12.

need to increase the number of people who become graduates. Those

:45:12.:45:13.

need to increase the number of are the people who will set up

:45:13.:45:16.

businesses and enable other investors to come in. One of the

:45:16.:45:21.

things we need to recognise when we talk about foreign direct

:45:21.:45:21.

investment, there was a report done talk about foreign direct

:45:21.:45:25.

for the Scottish Government a few days ago that said that Northern

:45:25.:45:32.

Ireland has the lowest quantity of foreign investment. We're not

:45:32.:45:38.

setting the high-value operations here. But we were told that London

:45:38.:45:42.

was just second to Londoners for as all of this was concerned. We have

:45:43.:45:52.

the second highest level of FDIC here, but it is not always the kind

:45:52.:46:02.

of FDI that we want. The figure of one third of graduates going off to

:46:02.:46:09.

UK universities, only 2% are going to universities in Northern Ireland.

:46:09.:46:16.

But it is the Republic of Ireland who are bringing in high skill jobs

:46:16.:46:20.

for graduates. Why not bring more of them into the Republic of Ireland,

:46:21.:46:25.

encourage them to study there, where they are much closer to home and

:46:25.:46:27.

more likely to return with the skills that they have required. It

:46:27.:46:33.

is as much about quantity as quality? We need to look at

:46:33.:46:40.

corporation tax so that we can create profit sectors. Let's hear

:46:40.:46:49.

the thoughts. Let's take a look back at the political week that was in

:46:49.:46:59.

the company of Stephen Walker. Northern Ireland met global

:46:59.:47:03.

investors with open arms, but it was against the backdrop of two murders

:47:03.:47:05.

investors with open arms, but it was and security alerts. These

:47:05.:47:10.

dissidents appear to have stepped up their activities over the past

:47:10.:47:14.

couple of days, obviously deliberately aimed at undermining

:47:14.:47:17.

any positivity that might come out of this conference. One-woman's

:47:17.:47:23.

story reignited the debate over abortion. We cannot ignore the

:47:23.:47:29.

voices that are speaking in terms of the pain, the trauma and the

:47:29.:47:36.

anxiety. I am very concerned that people report to me that they are

:47:37.:47:40.

made to feel like beggars and in 2013 and there simply should not be

:47:40.:47:45.

happening. And Martin McGuinness told us a

:47:45.:47:50.

bedtime story. We were lucky enough that we were allocated the Queen 's

:47:50.:47:53.

bedroom. I do not want you to tell anybody. But I had a little snooze

:47:53.:48:05.

on her bed. Stephen Walker reporting. It has

:48:05.:48:09.

been dubbed the British FBI and in England, Scotland and Wales it is

:48:09.:48:14.

already tackling organised crime, child protection and cyber crime.

:48:15.:48:18.

But the National Crime Agency will have limited powers here because

:48:18.:48:24.

Sinn Fein and the SDLP block the legislation. The DUP is not happy

:48:24.:48:29.

and they wanted implemented without fully. Dolores Kelly, the danger has

:48:29.:48:34.

to be that Northern Ireland is no more vulnerable than it needs to be

:48:34.:48:37.

in the face of international organised crime. I do not accept

:48:37.:48:44.

that. I recognise that there needs to be greater coordination across

:48:44.:48:45.

that. I recognise that there needs all of the different agencies and we

:48:45.:48:50.

want to see a National Crime Agency operate here, but we wanted to do so

:48:50.:48:53.

with the highest level of confidence from the public and the highest

:48:53.:49:01.

level of transparency and indeed that it is fully accountable to the

:49:01.:49:04.

policing board and that no operations can take place without

:49:04.:49:08.

the agreement of the chief constable. Which is a separate

:49:08.:49:12.

question from the one I asked you, that we are more vulnerable at the

:49:12.:49:17.

Mormons? The chief constable has said that he gets the highest level

:49:17.:49:28.

of confidence. We want the one secretary and others to listen and

:49:28.:49:33.

also enable the legislation to be brought forward to give us what we

:49:33.:49:37.

need to ensure that the highest level of confidence in policing is

:49:37.:49:42.

continued into the future. You cannot have it both ways. We are

:49:42.:49:48.

either more vulnerable at the moment and come under the wing of the NCA,

:49:48.:49:57.

or we do not need the NCA. It will not take long to sort it out. It has

:49:57.:50:02.

taken a very long time so far. People are not listening who ought

:50:02.:50:08.

to be listening. The SDLP is not alone in this. If we look at the

:50:08.:50:11.

wider debate, not just in the UK Government, with Yvette Cooper. We

:50:11.:50:17.

have also had Hillary Clinton speaking recently and there is

:50:17.:50:19.

have also had Hillary Clinton greater transparency being called

:50:19.:50:25.

for in the USA. Thankfully we are democracy but it does seek to ensure

:50:25.:50:28.

that the policing structures actually accountable and

:50:28.:50:34.

operational. We need those democratic protections and

:50:34.:50:38.

reassurances. Douglas Kelly hinting very strongly that perhaps people

:50:38.:50:41.

like yourself are not listening -- Dolores Kelly. With respect, we have

:50:41.:50:52.

worked with the chief constable and we have the greatest level of

:50:52.:50:58.

accountability in any part of the UK. We will have a situation in

:50:58.:51:06.

which the NCA will not have constable powers in Northern Ireland

:51:06.:51:11.

and indeed on any NCA issue, the chief constable would be accountable

:51:12.:51:15.

to him and the chief constable would be accountable to the board. But

:51:15.:51:20.

what we are seeing, unfortunately, is a degree of outdated dogma from

:51:20.:51:29.

Sinn Fein and the SDLP. But is it? We are in a situation where

:51:29.:51:33.

organised crime has become increasingly sophisticated and is

:51:33.:51:37.

moving beyond borders. Under range of issues, different child sex boy

:51:38.:51:44.

to -- exploitation. This is making things difficult for criminals. That

:51:44.:51:50.

is nothing that any sensible person would want to adopt it. I hope we

:51:50.:51:55.

can find a solution. I think that the chief constable has the greatest

:51:55.:52:09.

erect informant in the NCA of any chief constable in the UK -- the

:52:09.:52:17.

greatest direct involvement. International fraud, cyber crime,

:52:17.:52:21.

this is not about local police accountability, it is about the

:52:21.:52:24.

bigger scale of international crime and at the moment not everyone is

:52:24.:52:31.

happy that we are covered in the way that we should be. We have been

:52:32.:52:43.

working with others to make sure that our concerns can be met. How do

:52:43.:52:49.

you respond to the idea that it is outdated dogma? What is outdated is

:52:49.:52:59.

a level of scrutiny required from the intelligence agencies with the

:52:59.:53:07.

tools that are available to them. Hillary Clinton and Yvette Cooper

:53:08.:53:15.

made that very clear. And the former intelligence director of MI5 and MI6

:53:15.:53:19.

has said that there is a greater need for better intelligence

:53:19.:53:21.

accountability across those security sectors. You have to take that

:53:21.:53:30.

seriously. Dolores Kelly has says it is not about her being a national

:53:30.:53:39.

list. With respect, I think it is about some people being speaks in

:53:39.:53:40.

list. With respect, I think it is that regard. We need to tackle key

:53:40.:53:45.

issues. If it is not brought in the fully in Northern Ireland it links

:53:45.:53:48.

issues. If it is not brought in the us and with the online protection

:53:48.:53:53.

Centre which is vital. That would be denied to Northern Ireland. The

:53:53.:54:02.

danger from a Northern Ireland point of view is not simply that current

:54:02.:54:05.

criminals are allowed to have an easier time, but we will be seen as

:54:05.:54:09.

the weak link in the chain and we will see a situation in which

:54:09.:54:13.

criminals will be coming to Northern Ireland, exploiting that situation

:54:14.:54:18.

for their own ends. I cannot let you go without asking you about the

:54:19.:54:22.

other issue of the week as far as your party is concerned. A High

:54:22.:54:31.

Court ruling that a lifetime ban on gay men donating blood is a

:54:32.:54:36.

rational. And a damning indictment of the way that Edwin Poots has

:54:36.:54:41.

conducted himself. With respect, Edwin Poots will look at the

:54:41.:54:46.

judgement. We have tried to provide the best possible health protection.

:54:46.:54:49.

That has been at the forefront of what we have tried to do throughout

:54:49.:54:54.

this. Completely out of line with the rest of the UK. There has been a

:54:54.:54:58.

debate misinterpretation because there has been a range of... This

:54:58.:55:04.

was the case until a few years ago. There are degrees of band... People

:55:04.:55:10.

are concerned that the Minister has used his own prejudice in making

:55:10.:55:15.

this decision. That is actually what people are concerned about. One has

:55:15.:55:31.

to wonder what is the legal advice, the judges very clearly saying that

:55:31.:55:35.

the minister acted outside of the framework. Thank you very much

:55:35.:55:42.

indeed for coming in to join us. Patricia McBride and Paul Gosling

:55:42.:55:47.

indeed for coming in to join us. are still with me. Patricia McBride,

:55:47.:55:49.

indeed for coming in to join us. do you have reservations about where

:55:49.:55:54.

we are? I am seriously concerned about the fact that ministers using

:55:54.:56:00.

public funds to fund what appears to be his own religious or ethnic

:56:00.:56:04.

agenda, not only the ban on gay men donating blood but also on adoption

:56:04.:56:09.

and other issues. He made dispute it, but the evidence appears to

:56:09.:56:14.

point in that direction. I think we need to have a cohesive policy which

:56:14.:56:18.

is reasonable. We need to acknowledge the fact that blood

:56:18.:56:21.

donation is vital to maintaining life here. The more donors that we

:56:21.:56:26.

can have the better. There is no reason for this and that has been

:56:26.:56:31.

shown both in the UK and in Ireland. There is no reason for this

:56:31.:56:38.

ban. To see the obvious, we need to leave religion out of the centre of

:56:38.:56:41.

politics in Northern Ireland because this seems to come out of a

:56:41.:56:42.

politics in Northern Ireland because religious belief rather than a

:56:42.:56:48.

rational decision-making process. I imagine as a former Victims'

:56:48.:56:51.

Commissioner, we had the current Victims' Commissioner at Stormont

:56:51.:56:55.

this week saying that victims are being made to feel like beggars by

:56:55.:56:58.

the thick arms and survivors service which she says is not acceptable --

:56:58.:57:09.

victims and survivors service. I think that Katherine Stone is

:57:09.:57:11.

absolutely right in what she has said this week. Two years ago when

:57:11.:57:16.

the establishment of the service was being discussed, my colleagues and I

:57:17.:57:21.

warned ministers and officials around the model of assessment that

:57:21.:57:25.

was being used. We said that the level of clinical assessment was not

:57:25.:57:29.

appropriate for the needs of victims and survivors and had the capacity

:57:30.:57:33.

to re-traumatised people. That seems to be what has happened in this

:57:33.:57:40.

instance. But her position has been disputed. The level of assessment is

:57:40.:57:45.

simply not appropriate to the needs of many victims and survivors who

:57:45.:57:51.

need practical help and assistance, who do not need medical assessment

:57:51.:57:52.

in order to be able to pay fuel who do not need medical assessment

:57:52.:57:57.

bills for example. Is this something that you take an interest in?

:57:57.:58:03.

Certainly. Northern Ireland is bogged down with his history but we

:58:03.:58:07.

also need to deal with the trauma of victims. We need to deal with the

:58:07.:58:21.

to Andrew. Ed Miliband reshuffled his

:58:21.:58:24.

ministerial team this week with some commentators calling it the purge of

:58:24.:58:30.

the Blairites, but one poor lamb who fell victim to this perch was Diane

:58:30.:58:34.

Abbott, not somebody who worshipped at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on

:58:34.:58:40.

the backbenches means she can pursue other interests such as attending

:58:40.:58:44.

the Cheltenham literary Festival, and where she joins us now. Welcome.

:58:44.:58:53.

Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He talked about message discipline. I

:58:53.:58:57.

think the thing that did it for them was me coming out on Syria. This was

:58:57.:59:00.

think the thing that did it for them a purge of the Blairites, how did

:59:00.:59:09.

you become collateral damage? I have no idea but the fact that I was the

:59:09.:59:13.

one member of the front bench to go public about my concerns on Syria

:59:13.:59:20.

probably tipped my enemies in the party machinery over the edge. But

:59:20.:59:25.

he went your way on Syria, in the end he agreed with your line on

:59:25.:59:28.

Syria so why would that be for dismissal? I agree with you - you're

:59:28.:59:36.

fired. Because I actually spoke up and it was the fact that I spoke up,

:59:36.:59:42.

which was like a pebble falling in a forest or something. I am glad I

:59:42.:59:53.

spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like people around them than who are

:59:53.:00:08.

outspoken, who speak their minds? I think he's convinced he needs people

:00:08.:00:15.

who read from the scripts. People get scripted and people were

:00:15.:00:18.

increasingly upset that even though get scripted and people were

:00:18.:00:22.

I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr

:00:22.:00:28.

Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his

:00:28.:00:35.

best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour

:00:35.:00:41.

Party chose the right Miliband. I will remain loyal to him on the

:00:41.:00:46.

backbenches. You're going to be loyal? However, I want to join in

:00:46.:00:52.

the debate. You're going to be loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both

:00:52.:00:58.

in public and private when others were bitching about him behind the

:00:58.:01:02.

scenes. When it comes to policy, from the backbenches, I hope to be

:01:02.:01:06.

involved in the debate particularly around nick policy. Et's see how

:01:06.:01:10.

loyal you are. You must be happy with all this new tough talk on

:01:10.:01:19.

welfare and free schools? Well, I think both Rachel and Tristram are

:01:19.:01:25.

very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The

:01:25.:01:31.

issue of free schools, they are one thing. But diminishing the role of

:01:31.:01:35.

local authorities is another. There are a lot of group of childrens,

:01:35.:01:40.

particularly with special needs, who need strong local authorities. I'm

:01:40.:01:42.

particularly with special needs, who sure Tristram will be aware of that.

:01:43.:01:46.

As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories

:01:46.:01:51.

have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms

:01:51.:01:57.

of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would

:01:57.:02:03.

you? What are you on, and lieu? I haven't seen the detail of Rachel's

:02:04.:02:09.

new position. You have to wait and see the detail. It is in the papers.

:02:09.:02:14.

You haven't stopped reading the papers. It was the Observer. When

:02:14.:02:18.

will you announce you're running for Mayor of London? I have no plans to

:02:18.:02:22.

announce that I'm running for Mayor Mayor of London? I have no plans to

:02:22.:02:27.

of London. No plans. That's what Michael his I will Tyne used to tell

:02:27.:02:31.

me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the

:02:31.:02:36.

same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know

:02:36.:02:41.

you're going for it. I know you're going for it. Everybody knows you're

:02:41.:02:46.

going for it. Just fess up to your old mate! ! I have no plans to run.

:02:46.:02:57.

If you did run, who would be, what would be your biggest threat other

:02:57.:03:04.

than yourself? I think there's a lot of very talented candidates, David

:03:04.:03:11.

Lammy, Tessa Jowell, Sadiq Khan. They are all talented. I would have

:03:11.:03:17.

to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of

:03:17.:03:21.

getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of our

:03:21.:03:32.

most loyal viewers of This Week and were taxi drivers and their wives.

:03:32.:03:35.

I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if

:03:35.:03:40.

you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love

:03:40.:03:46.

This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love

:03:46.:03:51.

you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy

:03:51.:03:56.

chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is

:03:56.:04:01.

what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this

:04:01.:04:05.

great programme to go and do something else in politics. She

:04:05.:04:10.

wanted to do something serious. She had taken what appeared to be a low

:04:10.:04:15.

position but taken it extremely serious and was committed to the

:04:15.:04:20.

issues. I'm quite disappointed for her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a

:04:20.:04:30.

thing. You just mentioned about London mayor, did Diane not ask to

:04:30.:04:36.

step down? No, she got fired. Someone who's an eminent person on

:04:36.:04:41.

this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's

:04:41.:04:45.

missing you. Are you free this Thursday night? Make him a happy

:04:45.:04:51.

man, come back to the fold. I think I may be free this Thursday night.

:04:51.:04:56.

So, if he'll have me, I'll be there. My people will speak to your people.

:04:56.:05:00.

We'll get it sorted out. Diane, watch that big vase behind you,

:05:01.:05:05.

you're not insured for. That thanks for being with us.

:05:05.:05:08.

Does she have a chance of being Mayor of London? She's very well

:05:08.:05:14.

known as Michael pointed out. That is important. People who are outside

:05:14.:05:19.

known as Michael pointed out. That the party fold have traditionally

:05:19.:05:22.

done well in the mayoral election. The job of being a London mayor is

:05:22.:05:27.

running an economy the size of a nation. It is a very serious job.

:05:27.:05:32.

There may be problems with her campaign. We're agreed she is

:05:32.:05:36.

running? That was a transparent bid for it. She's potentially a very

:05:36.:05:44.

compelling Coll ticks. People have her down as a London Borough

:05:44.:05:51.

left-winger but she's quite tough and conservative. Michael Gove said

:05:51.:05:58.

he had fallen in love with Diane which That's one vote he has. What

:05:58.:06:04.

do you think? I thing about Diane Abbott is she has a fantastic way of

:06:04.:06:10.

connecting. She has a really good way of connecting wi people. She

:06:10.:06:14.

would be a very strong candidate in the contest to be the Labour

:06:14.:06:18.

candidate. It will probably be a Labour win next time. Depends, if

:06:18.:06:24.

Labour wins the 2015 election it may be more difficult. There's a danger

:06:24.:06:30.

for Labour that Diane is the big personality liked by the party

:06:30.:06:34.

activists that wins the party primary but isn't necessarily a shoe

:06:34.:06:38.

in come the London general election? That's true. London is traditionally

:06:38.:06:44.

a Labour city. But Boris managed to win as an outsider. There are big

:06:44.:06:49.

dangers for Labour with that. I think, as I said before, somebody

:06:49.:06:54.

who seems a bit independent from their own party machinery tend to do

:06:54.:06:59.

well. Londoners respond to that. We've only had mayors so far that

:06:59.:07:05.

were independent? Indeed. And how well Ken Livingstone did last time.

:07:05.:07:09.

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. He was and is much more left-wing

:07:09.:07:16.

than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't just stray on Syria, it was immigration.

:07:17.:07:24.

Why was Jeremy brown replaced by Norman Baker at the Home Office?

:07:24.:07:30.

This is very much to do with Clegg deciding he has to go back to those

:07:30.:07:35.

people who abandoned the Liberal Democrats the day they went into

:07:35.:07:38.

coalition with the Conservatives really, and convince them there are

:07:38.:07:44.

some holy areas of policy, sacred areas which they will defend. That

:07:44.:07:50.

includes civil liberties. In the Home Office, that incident with the

:07:50.:07:53.

immigration vans went down very badly across the whole nation. Went

:07:53.:07:59.

down particularly badly with Liberal Democrats and voters. In the Home

:07:59.:08:02.

Office it is crucial you have somebody there to put a shield on

:08:02.:08:07.

that. We've had fun at his appointment, there's a proper

:08:07.:08:13.

purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg has won the argument against the

:08:13.:08:16.

left, Vince Cable on the economy, away day in July, briefings say

:08:16.:08:21.

DrCable's been put in his box. He's won the argument on economic policy

:08:21.:08:25.

against the left. When it comes to the touchstone issue in the Home

:08:25.:08:29.

Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The

:08:29.:08:33.

Guardian. This is important for Liberal Democrat voters. T's

:08:33.:08:37.

something else going on which is that Nick Clegg has to keep his

:08:37.:08:42.

parliamentary party happy. That involves giving them ministerial

:08:42.:08:47.

jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats losing their jobs, Michael Moore,

:08:47.:08:54.

Jeremy Browne, are Lunn lucky because vacancies have to be created

:08:54.:09:00.

for number people to come in. By 2015 an astonishing number of

:09:00.:09:05.

Liberal Democrat MPs will have been on the payroll. It is effective

:09:05.:09:09.

party management. I want to move on to press regulation. Brian Leveson's

:09:09.:09:16.

famous report, appeared before the parliamentary select committee. I

:09:16.:09:21.

will run you a clip from Connor Burns, out of the Westminster

:09:21.:09:26.

consensus. I bitterly regret politicians got involved in this. We

:09:26.:09:32.

moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord

:09:32.:09:38.

Leveson wanted a system the press took a lead on. Voluntary

:09:38.:09:43.

self-regulation. This is state involvement which I worry about

:09:43.:09:49.

profoundly. He sits on the media select committee which does

:09:49.:09:52.

interviews and investigations into the media. Chris Huhne said earlier

:09:52.:09:57.

he thought all the newspapers would sign up to the Government-backed

:09:57.:10:01.

Royal Charter. I think he's totally wrong. I think he thinks they

:10:01.:10:06.

should. But he did say they would. I think he's wrong. They won't sign

:10:06.:10:11.

up. All the mood music when that Royal Charter was agreed on Friday

:10:11.:10:15.

was they would not sign up. It is interesting that the Government,

:10:15.:10:20.

Maria Miller, is essentially saying to the press industry, if you don't

:10:20.:10:24.

sign up, the Royal charter will go ahead. I cannot control the Labour

:10:24.:10:26.

sign up, the Royal charter will go Party and the Liberal Democrats.

:10:26.:10:29.

What you might do, she's saying, the industry is wind the clock back to

:10:29.:10:33.

what they are calling the Puttnam stage. That was earlier this year,

:10:33.:10:41.

Lord Puttnam was tack amendments which would introduce statutory

:10:41.:10:46.

regulation. Maria Miller says you may not like this sort of

:10:46.:10:51.

regulation, stat industry -- statutory legislation but if you

:10:51.:10:55.

don't sign up to this, it will be a lot worse. Will that work? Playing

:10:55.:11:03.

the good cop, bad cop routine? Will that pressurise everyone to sign up.

:11:03.:11:07.

Lots of people are saying this will be a club with no members. It won't

:11:07.:11:12.

work. As Nick and I broke the story last week that the Government was

:11:12.:11:17.

going to reject the newspaper-backed one, I'm certain that the newspapers

:11:17.:11:22.

now, most of them maybe, not all, but most, will go the legal route

:11:22.:11:29.

and to judicial review on what the Government's proposing and will take

:11:29.:11:34.

it to strains Bowring where freedom of the press is enshrined. They will

:11:34.:11:42.

fight this? There is enough fury amongst Fleet Street to result in

:11:42.:11:46.

that. The big political question going forward is which of the party

:11:46.:11:50.

leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press

:11:50.:11:54.

regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband

:11:54.:12:00.

the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian

:12:00.:12:04.

Leveson. You appoint a judge who loves rules, anti-press, you

:12:04.:12:08.

shouldn't be surprised with what you got in the Leveson report? I big

:12:08.:12:14.

chunk of press will look at David Cameron saying, you were the guy who

:12:14.:12:19.

opened this. You may not have intended what will happen. If he had

:12:19.:12:28.

a majority Government he wouldn't have appointed Brian Leveson. If

:12:28.:12:33.

they face more punitive fines over Labour ale cases they take that to

:12:33.:12:39.

Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to

:12:39.:12:46.

suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of

:12:46.:12:50.

Human Rights. They'll have to suspend that. We must never come out

:12:50.:12:52.

of the European Convention. suspend that. We must never come out

:12:52.:12:55.

Churchill was behind it. He was indeed. But it is actually a major

:12:55.:13:02.

constitutional issue whether you regulate the press or not. There was

:13:02.:13:04.

constitutional issue whether you a lot of ill feeling that this Marie

:13:05.:13:10.

ya miller statement was snubbing out on Friday afternoon. Somebody said

:13:10.:13:14.

freedom of the press too important to sneak out on afully afternoon.

:13:14.:13:20.

The whole subject should be treated with respect. We've run out of time.

:13:20.:13:25.

I'll be back next Sunday with the Communities Secretary Eric Pickles

:13:25.:13:27.

at our usual time of 11.00am. If Communities Secretary Eric Pickles

:13:27.:13:31.

it's Sunday, it is the Sunday politics.

:13:31.:13:38.

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers are joined by the new Scottish secretary, Alistair Carmichael, Conservative cabinet minister Ken Clarke, former Liberal Democrat cabinet minister Chris Huhne and Labour MP Diane Abbott.


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