15/01/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

And in Northern Ireland an executive reshuffle could see

alliance lose a ministry. Is red tape adding to the troubles of the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1689 seconds

Welcome to Northern Ireland. It has been long talked about, cutting

back Stormont departments, but the executive caught everyone by

surprise with the proposal to scrap employment and learning and resolve

the problem of what happens to justice. For one party it will not

be as sweet as the existing proposition. But we believe it is

our best attempt at trying to get the highest level of consensus.

shake-up or a carve up? We will here from the alliance and Sinn

Fein. Also: We have it on authority that few contractors are getting it

over the line. It is frustrating. Does red tape have a strangle hold

on the construction industry? New year and a new look for us. Each

week I'm joined by two guests. Today I'm joined by Dawn Purvis and

Tom Kelly. It has been the big story of the week, Dawn, somebody

said the Assembly is full of negotiators rather than legislators,

is this not example? Yes nexts have continued, but that is the nature

of democratic politics. It is about reaching consensus and moving on.

So yes, negotiations is part of democratic politics. But a good

idea, it seem we can't do anything. We always push things to the brink.

That is the nature. But it is the nature of politics. We don't start

the work six months in advance. We leave it to the last minute. But

the discussion about the number of departments and the

responsibilities the departments is long overdue. Tom Kelly, what do

you think, malicious, a carve up, or just a sign that it wasn't fair

the thing the way it was working? There are three things. One way it

is squaring off the fact that alliance had an extra ministry,

which seemed to annoy some people. Or it is about slim down government

or that it doesn't make sense as a stand alone department. I don't

think it does make sense as a stand alone department and needs to be

aligned to the needs of industry and part of it should go to

enterprise, trade and employment to be more competitive. That is the

important thing. I wouldn't get too hung up about alliance losing the

ministry. But it is progress. But it is not slimmed down government

if you just move everyone over. Stay with us, plenty more to talk

about. So the parties have until tomorrow to deliver their verdicts

on the proposal to scrap employment and learning and allowing David

Ford to remain as justice minister. The first and deputy First

Ministers said their plan is the right one. I'm joined by two guests.

Nay owe Mee Long it is just fairness? The reality is there an

anomaly. There are three separate issues and they are being brought

together in a way that does not deal with any of them. First it is

about how we appoint a justice minister and how the community can

have confidence in him. And then what happens if that goes outside

the mechanism and we make sure there is fairness within the other

ministries that. Needs to be assessed. And then there is the

separate issue of how we slim down government. The proposal doesn't do

that. It fixs the particular problem of alliance having two

ministries. But if at some point the SDLP was to nominate the

justice minister, it wouldn't stop them having a disproportionate

number of seats. It does Nantes deal with the fact that there is a

lodge jibg to this. But there never been an argument it should go to

Department of Education. That is because there is a kafb up between

the dup -- carve up between the DUP and Sinn Fein. None of what we

discussed will be about the Alliance Party nominating for

justice. That is a decision we will take when the changes are made. It

is an irrelevance about the structures. And that is we're

focused on. Not who holds the ministries or this they will hold

them in a short period, but what works for long-term. Was it a

political carve up? What was the motive? What we have achieved is

stability. The introduction of policing and justice, there was

concerns about how that would be delivered. Sinn Fein continued to

arguing it should be a local ministry and it has worked well.

The sky did not fall in, despite the prodictions of some. Justice

has worked. We have a formula to ensloo ur that there will continue

to be a Justice Ministry on a cross community vote to give it

confidence of the community. We also have avoided the last minute

crisis talks. This should not come as a surprise. Everyone knew there

was a sun set clause when the ministry was formed. If parties

hadn't been discussing this, they should have been. Sinn Fein and the

DUP have brought this to a head and said we believe it is the best way

forward. It is logical that certain sections would go to trade and

enterprise and universities and higher education go to education.

Why would we not have a seamless education system, from pre-school

through primary school, postprimary school and on to higher level.

Education is about creating the workforce of the future. The skills

agenda is not as seemless as you make it out. The CBI said their

pre-Wednesday rens would be fr a department of economy. --

preference. And would streamline that into looking at how we make

those sections of education deliver for business. That is important,

what we are are arguing about is how those functions will work and

the argument that was brought after a review was that Del should

transfer entirely. Sinn Fein will have an issue with that, because

that is a DUP ministry. But it does not, you're not making a

counterargument as to why you would put it anyone else. They are

telling me our education system to meet our tris and we propose

from the earlys days of a child in school, they will go through all

elements of training, including training and skills and further and

higher education. We now have that system in place and that can only

be good for education and for our economy. Why not do the whole

reconstruction of the departments at once? Why have justice as your

priority, that is what it seems, we wanted to sort out justice at the

expense of education? We have sorted out justice. We have sorted

out the issue where people had concern about the representation of

the Alliance Party and the issue oorned the department of

departments. There is a review that was built into the agreement about

the number and scale O'departments and the number of Assembly members.

All those matter will be resolved. But this was a time to deal with

the three issues. We do have limited amount of time, is David

Ford's threat to resign not over the top? But whatever structures

put in place will depend on whether the alliance chooses to nominate.

That is a separate issue we will have to discuss. Other parties may

decide to nominate and they be -- may p elected. We got it because no

one else had cross community support. What the proposal does not

do is address the situation where another party does command cross

community support. The anomaly would pass on to another party. Our

proposals remove that anomaly and give whoever is the minister for

justice the same security as any other minister and put forward

propose ands that will allows to maximise the benefit to the public.

We want efficient and effective Government where money is spent on

public services. I want to ask you about the money. A lot of people in

the teaching profession, parents, pupil, does the �120 that was

announced mean that everyone can breathe a sigh of relief. Those

redundancies that people were talk about, will they now not happen?

The � 1250 -- �120 is a sigh of relief. But we have not eradicated

the problem. We have eased the pressures and saves hundreds of

jobs and secured the future education of our young people. But

I will continue to work with the executive in a bid to gain further

investment in education. But the recent announcement is welcome. It

has saved swrobs and secured our education system. Thank you. --

jobs. I want to catch up some of the points about education. Dawn

Purvis you took a great interest in this area, do cow think this money

will be -- do you think this money will be good news for schools and

they will withdraw back from the redundancies. You can take some

comfort from the money, but the minister has said there is still

pressures and they won't be a -- achieve lated by -- alleviated by

the money. We should be concerned at the carve up and what thought

has gone into where the responsibilities of Del lie. We

talk about the functions of Del going to trade and investment. We

should look in the opposite direction and we should look at the

kpt of -- department of education - - Department of Education having

responsibility for education from childhood through young people and

adult education. I am concerned about young people not in

employment, education or training, where the responsibilities for

those lie. It should be within the Department of Education and adult

education should remain. Because it is skills that drive the economy

and not the other way. There is an issue about the economy and it is

spread over many departments. any way to run a government, this

confusing message in the run up to Christmas, it is a prophet and

doofl a then Santa Claus appears. It is not a good way to run

government. But the practicalities means that is the way we run it. If

the minister finds money from other areas and they prioritise the money

that is spare, then they are doing a good thing. It would be worse if

they were handing it back to the Treasury. Plenty more to talk about.

Well the construction industry's going through tough times and there

is no sign of an upturn. So what can Stormont do? At least half of

the Executive will meet represent e represent yifrs of building

industry to discuss the problems. - - representatives. The ministers

will be asked to cut bureaucracy and speed up public works. Sean

MacMahon has been in the industry for 30 year, but his experience

counts for little in winning public sector contracts. The procurement

process is a red tape nightmare for small firms. It is because of this

document, the pre-qualification questionnare. It is costly to

produce not only on our resource but to achieve qualification on

tender lists we have employed consultants to help us gain

selection for the lists. We have it on good authority that few

contractors are successful in getting over the line. It is

frustrating, very annoying and very demoralising. The framework is set

down by European directive A report prepared for the European

Commission found the UK had the slowest and most costly procurement

procedures in the EU. The Royal Society of Ulster Architects says

its member are falling foul of the bureaucracy. Its following the lead

of Scotland by lobbying politicians for a review of the process. It is

regarded as a risk business. The civil servants want to Maike I is

dotted and T is crossed. But it comes at a cost. I think we would

like to look at a good review of procurement. I think it would be

worthwhile. The problems with procurement couldn't come at a

worse time for the industry. Companies are being hit hard and

some can't take the pressure. Thrf there were 53 insolvencies in the

year to 2010. Many trades men also went bankrupt. The Department of

Enterprise says almost 33,000 people were working in the

construction sector in September. That is down 8.5% on the previous

year. According to the employers federation, at least 30,000 jobs

have been lost in the industry in four years. On Tuesday, the all

party working group on construction will meet at least six executive

ministers here at Stormont. The ministers will be asked to speed up

their spending plans. It could be looked at that the Executive is

trying to hold back pa some of the infrastructure projects until

before an election. So that it is seen to be spending money. From an

industry point of view, there is no t much point in doing that if a

whole pile of businesses go out of business. We have to look at the

programme of government, see how it is spending money, the types of

project that it is spending money on. The representative of the

industry due here for this meeting on Tuesday say they want more than

tea and sympathy. What they want is to see real action, that will

prevent further job losses and stop more firms from going into

bankruptcy. Tom Kelly, its seems almost criminal this has been

allowed to arise that some small companies, they are in some way

being... Sacrificed if you like. Because of Government's policy.

Government pro pr curement should be overhauled, because it is too

complicated and the fact is that it is a lot about box ticking and

little about deliver Iy. -- delivery. The fact they were going

to meet six Ministers shows the complexity of doing business here,

so many ministries have an impact on the construction industry, but

not having joined up thinking in term of how they create jobs. That

is a problem. This is about jobs and not business. It is about a

jobs agenda and that is the people sitting at home who are unemployed.

Dawn Purvis too many chiefs? Yes it is functions 06 a department are

spread over many departments. The economy is spread over five

departments and procurement is split over six departments. And the

Assembly finance and personnel committee published a report into

public procurement and much of the issues that were raised were

highlighted in that report. Bureaucracy is massive and it does

lock out businesss from Northern Ireland. And if the executive are

serious about growing the economy they must address the issue. Now a

round up of the political week in 60 seconds. New year new look at

the Executive, but is Stephen Farry being sacrificed to keep David Ford

at justice? We have a workable proposal. We look forward to take

it through the Assembly and having the change in place before the date

that is set. One job in the Executive causes a political row.

But 350 are to go at the Ulster Bank. And invest NI hands back

millions saying they can't get people to spend the money. And a

kind gesture from the deputy First Minister at the summit. We have a

cast until Belfast and I am sure we would be prepared to make it

available for peace diskugszs between the British Government and

-- discussions between the British Government and Scotland! Well Tom

Kelly, how will nationalists view the debate for independence. Will

they be optimistic I think the real issue is how unionists will regard

Scotland opting out. They have looked at them as being political

cousin and made much of the relationship with Scotland, where

Scotland has by and large been looking at the republic and Iceland

and saying we could do this on our own. So I think nationalists will

look at it amusingly and Martin McGuinness is right and we have a

castle here. What about unionists will there be any nerves about the

possibility of Scottish independence? Yes Martin

McGuinness's words are profeltic and we will look at - o' prophetic

and we look at peace talks. We know sectarianism is an issue that exist

as much in Scotland as it does within Northern Ireland. I think

those who are unionists in Northern Ireland will be lobbying heavily

for Scotland to remain part of union and you may see some of our

high profile figures over there lobbying on behalf of those in

swhrand who want to remain within the union. Like Peter Robinson?

and Tom Elliott and many other unionists leaders. Certainly those