16/03/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

And with their thoughts on it all, the economist Paul Gosling and

academic Pete Shirlow. The loss of some 300 jobs at the

Driver and Vehicle Agency could be just the tip of the iceberg if

welfare reform is not implemented here, says the DUP. The former

Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson, has forecast that 1600 civil servants

employed by the Department of Work and Pensions could be in danger of

redundancy - but is he being alarmist? With me now is Mr Wilson's

successor as Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton. Thank you for joining us.

Let's start with the job losses in the DVA. Did the announcement that

we were losing 300 jobs - most of them in Coleraine - come as a

surprise? We think we knew for a long time that the jobs were under

threat. We are mounted a strong case. We knew that the government

and Westminster wanted to cut costs. Some of those jobs could have been

done in Coleraine and elsewhere in Northern Ireland. We have a good

track record of doing work like that. We also do it for benefits and

for Social Security as well. You made a robust case, you had a

petition of 40,000 signatures objecting to the change. It did not

make any difference. I think a good case was made. It was not as a prize

that the government were looking at this. It does show that this

decision has been not -- has not been taken here but has been taken

by Westminster. There will be a ruthlessness if we do not in

Northern Ireland do things in welfare reform. The situation could

get worse because in a speech on Thursday night, you warrant that the

next four years could eclipse the last four years. It is not the sort

of message I like to put out there, but I would feel my job if I do not

stress that is to be ball. We are getting lots of good evidence that

the economy is growing, unemployment is falling, the housing department

-- area is going in the right direction as well. We are about

halfway down that road of austerity and in Northern Ireland we will feel

the impact for the next four years. The Treasury has signalled the 70%

of expenditure for the next few years. What could that mean for

Northern Ireland? If you look at the projections for 2015-16 where we do

have data, we have ?100,000 taken out of our budget. That is coming on

the back of all the cuts that we have had to deal over the last

couple of years. It presents us with a choice, going for a crude front

line cut which can be designed to protect the centre of government we

can look at what government does and look at making changes more

effectively and efficiently. The government has made a promise to be

balanced the economy. government has made a promise to be

expect. We would expect to see a reduced dependence on public sector

employment. We have a large public sector in Northern Ireland. It has

been too large for too long. The private sector has to be grown, that

is why we are seeing a reduction in corporation tax. It is a challenge

looking from where we are coming from. A third of our employment is

in the public sector, it is hard to be balanced in terms of the private

sector. I am determined that public sector which has provided a cushion

of the last couple of years, the private sector has struggled in this

country. That can be seen as a drag. If it is reformed, if we can make it

improve, it will be a beneficial contribution to the economy. It is

pretty bad, Sammy Wilson, your predecessor highlighted the risk. He

said 1600 jobs are at risk in the civil service. Do you agree with

them? I do agree with him. I have been giving the same message over

the last few months. The lack of leadership shown by parties like

Sinn Fein are threatening... What about the DUP? We have achieved

quite a lot, we have flexibility that would ensure that the bedroom

tax does not affect people who are already getting hit by other benefit

cuts in Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein and others are refusing to move

forward. That is not just threatening further reductions, we

have lost ?15 million this year. We will lose more in the next few years

have lost ?15 million this year. We doing Social Security work on behalf

of customers in England and Wales could be lost. They are likely to be

lost. As we have seen with the DVA this week, why would an English

minister want to keep jobs in Northern Ireland. Interesting

figures. You have set aside ?50 million for the first penalty. It

goes up incrementally, it will increase to 1,000,000,005 years?

Yes. -- ?1 billion in five years. In five years it will have gone up.

Never mind what the Chancellor will pass on in terms of the cuts across

the whole of the UK. These are self-inflicted fines which have been

as a result of a lack of leadership from parties like Sinn Fein. It will

have a real affect on people on the ground. It will have a devastating

effect on public services Northern Ireland. It is not a lack of willing

this on my part or members of my party. -- willingness. We have been

making this clear to the SDLP, Sinn Fein and others. We cannot afford to

take this hit, vulnerable people will suffer because of the impact of

this on public service deliveries. Thank you very much. Paul, what do

you make of those figures? It demonstrates the difficulty we have

with devolution. Theoretically, although we have devolution,

politicians have very little choice to implement the vast majority of

the welfare reforms. to implement the vast majority of

to work together. I think that is what the focus in Northern Ireland

will be, not whether one particular party is blocking one particular

part of welfare reform. But an ability to work together to better

Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein take a very different view and says the

other parties are causing the problems. Somebody needs to do

something very quickly to sort things out. If there had been a

solution at around Richard Haass, these would sort themselves out. We

have a political system that is not functioning. The failure to reach an

agreement on welfare reforms just a symptom of that. Pete, how do you

see it? I think given the complex geography is we have, the impacts of

this will be even. It will affect constituents more. The other issue

is, what is the response to this in terms of the third sector and how we

develop other areas in the public sector so we have more than just the

argument about we said no, you said yes. We have seen success in other

areas, other parts of Europe where they have looked at different ways

to improve the economy. Do you see any sign of political will or desire

to make that choice? There is a lack of knowledge just -- not just with

politicians. We have not come to terms with our modern

Simon? Is there any truth in that politicians have been focused

elsewhere. We are putting ourselves at a disadvantage? What you

described as the other issues are incredibly important. How they fit

into the grand scheme of politics in Northern Ireland. Are they holding

us hostage? We have been in Stormont for seven, coming on eight years. We

have made progress in bread in the areas. This is not an issue we are

facing. Given the issues are steady is giving us, reality is starting to

bite. We will have to make difficult decisions, some that we may not like

in their entirety but we will have to do something about. What we have

done in terms of welfare of, and flexibility is that we have

negotiated, shows that we can use devolution to work again some of the

worst things we come against from 's -- Westminster. The cost of not

receiving and losing ?1 billion will make it incredibly difficult for us

to take better decisions on the cuts. This is not the only issue. We

need to improve social housing. We have blockages in other areas across

the reform. Thank you all very much indeed.

St Patrick's Day has turned into St Patrick's 'Week' it seems,

especially for politicians from this island who made their annual

pilgrimage to Washington for a series of high profile engagements.

The Taoiseach met President Obama while the First and Deputy First

Ministers met Vice President Biden. The Secretary of State was there too

and Martina Purdy asked her if she agrees with Richard Haass's comment

that the peace process here might not be quite as robust as people

think. No, I think there are in many parts of the

think. No, I think there are in many particular model to other parts of

the world. I genuinely think that political readership in Northern

Ireland should be proud of what they have achieved. But they also

recognise there is more work to be done. That is something that

President Clinton emphasised in his visit to Northern Ireland. It is

something the Prime Minister recognised. Ensuring that many more

children have ways out of their barriers based on religion. What I

have been taking to Washington as a message is that this is what has

been achieved in Northern Ireland, real progress. A recognition that

further work could yield tremendous further benefits and taking Northern

Ireland further forward, that is a message that has been

sympathetically received by Washington. It seems we are further

back than we were a few months ago. What is this that is of the six

cases, can you shed any light? The controversy around OTRs and what

they have been positive than a setback. There still appears to be a

willingness from the party of all political leaders in Northern

Ireland to work forward on this. I hope that the OTR crisis will not

see the party leaders meetings abandoned altogether. On those

excuses, we have set up an enquiry, headed up by one of the most senior

and well respected judges in the country. We are determined to

provide the facts of how the scheme operated. Including what the current

position is in relation to cases which

that London is not handling those excuses now? No, they are not.

The Secretary of State talking to Martina Purdy.

His interest in Northern Ireland was long-standing and he helped keep the

issue on the Westminster agenda - just one of the many tributes paid

to Tony Benn who died on Friday. During his long and sometimes

controversial political career, Mr Benn gave support to Sinn Fein and

advocated a united Ireland. But despite - or maybe because of that -

he opposed the Labour Party formally organising here. Mark Langhammer

campaigned for many years to change the policy and is with me now.

Welcome to the programme. You knew Tony Benn a little bit, you met him

a couple of times. I met him at a conference in Blackpool in a tearoom

with a senior education official. Who was from north Belfast and who

had access with all of these men. We met in context of the Labour Party

policy at the time. It was for unity by consent. It meant that the Labour

Party government had the vote. Ed Miliband was governor of Northern

Ireland. It was a colonial position. Eamon had spoken with two wings,

there was our view that Labour should get in and contest

elections. Those with the view that Labour should get out. How did he

justify it to you? He topped about socialism and Chrissie. How did he

see his position about a democratic one? -- he spoke about socialism and

democracy. He was a very humorous man. The one thing about Tony Benn,

he was very rooted in the movement. He was really from the Methodist

tradition than anything else. His He was really from the Methodist

of the day. He was a conviction politician, he was quite partisan

politician, I think. He was an national figure in the way that

nobody else in the Labour Party was. You agreed with them in terms of

left right politics. He was a bit of a hero in terms of that. Not really.

At the critical time, I think Tony Benn did the wrong thing. What he

said that he was a cynical as and he supported as a technology Minister,

Meridian. Whenever the Bevan Atlee consensus started to break down in

the 70s. It was about full employment, the NHS, putting people

first, essentially. At a certain stage the labour movement was

working at a surly. -- adversarial way. There was Barbara Kassel and

Ted Heath, at a critical time, he voted and went against bullet and

industrial democracy and effectively open the door to Thatcherism.

-- Bullock. Insofar as that he was able to bring Sinn Fein in from the

political called, was his contribution helpful or not? I think

it was a good contribution through his diaries. When Callaghan visited

Northern Ireland, you will remember that footage of him speaking out of

the window, at that stage Callaghan was introduced with the notion that

Labour should govern. When it got into the government -- Cabinet

meeting, the critical thing was avoiding responsibility.

The Foreign Minister said exactly the same thing, keep it arms length.

Keep it out there. If you did nothing else, you opened a window on

the adverse resolve the middle-class at that time. Let's hear from Paul

and Pete. at that time. Let's hear from Paul

He was to a lot of people and at that time. Let's hear from Paul

contradictions. There were a whole case of those. His stanza Northern

Ireland did change somewhat over time. He called for United stations

to come in here. He was when I met once in England many years ago he

did have a capacity to learn. He made a speech once that I was that,

it was talking about unionists as colonialists. I challenged him on

it. I said my family have been in in Northern Ireland and 500 years in

which time we have become indigence. He would engage with you, but he

would be sharp if he disagreed with you. -- indigenous. We have to

remember, an intellectual and capable man. But also had his

faults. I met Tony many times. He was a lovely man and should be

remembered for his engaging personality, the fact that he

brought ideas of democracy and accountability to the forefront and

we should remember that way. Let's take a look back at the week in 60

Seconds with Rosy Billingham. We are not going away. A message

from victims as a widower accounts to MLAs how she lost her husband. --

a Wood Hill. 17 bullets were put into his back. Richard has had a

stark warning for us in Washington. The passage of time will only create

an environment and social division will intensify, violence will

increase. Jonathan Powell joined the peace process stands by his claim

that the DUP knew about OTR course versions. What we want to try and do

is have politicians solving some of these problems of the past, not

trying to beat each other over the head over it. An enquiry into

trying to beat each other over the not sharing it very well.

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