22/09/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

poll finds a third of his own councillors don't think he's doing a

good job, will that be enough to steady the Labour ship?

partying like it's 2006, as Damian McBride's memoirs re-ignite the

Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell will tell us why he is sickened by

the former Brown spin doctor. And speaking of political

infighting, Conservative Party Chairman Grant Shapps will give his

response to the rampant Tory-bashing at the Lib Dem Conference And with

Coming up in Northern Ireland: me, as always, the best

Coming up in Northern Ireland: Westminster wants to give free

school meals to young children but are there better ways for

school meals to young children but over the two thirds

school meals to young children but are there better ways for storm want

school meals to young children but over the two thirds of

are there better ways for storm want to spend the education

are there better ways for storm want over the two thirds of the ethnic

are there better ways for storm want to spend the education budget?

over the two thirds of the ethnic minority vote but now stands accused

of institutional racism. Are they right? With me, the best and the

brightest political panel in the business. Isabel Hardman, Janan

Ganesh and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting like demented Damians

throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

spending commitments are coming thick and fast. Not before time,

according to the Labour leader's critics. He's been out and about

this morning and told Andrew Marr that he knew it was going to be a

tough fight in the run up to 2015. It is about a party that lost office

three years ago. We are trying to be a one term opposition. That is

tough. I believe it is a fight that we can win and I am up for that

fight. The stakes are so high for young people who want a job, for

people whose living standards are being squeezed. For people who think

that this is not good enough for Britain. So what do key Labour Party

activists - its councillors - think about the direction Mr Miliband is

taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference

with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.

Labour have unwrapped their conference set. Let us unwrap them.

With the help of an opinion poll we surveyed 1350 Labour councillors

across England and Wales. We wanted to find out what they think as

Labour gathers for its conference. The Labour leader warmed up for the

week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

week by taking to his soap box in be here. In our survey 31% of

councillors said they did not think Ed Miliband was doing a good job as

leader. 30% said they thought the party would have a better chance if

someone else was in charge at the next election. You will see more of

Ed Miliband as we run-up to general election. He has been in the job for

three years! Now it is crunch time. The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked

by roughly one third of the party as well. Ed Balls is not a pop your

man. He says things and he speaks his mind. -- not a popular man.

Sometimes he is not the most diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not

seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre

the exhibitors were starting up. When it comes to relations with

trade unions, the majority of Labour councillors thought things were

absolutely fine. Just 9% thought things with the unions were a little

bit too close. Tricky because Ed Miliband want to loosen the link.

The shadow environment secretary arrived in Brighton ride bicycle

from London to raise money for charity. When we as Labour

councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung

parliament, just over half said they would tell the lid Dems to get on

their bikes. We would never say no to going into coalition. It gives us

the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the

last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib

Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted

that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It in

our survey Labour councillors of warming the felt that immigration

had been positive for the UK. We're now joined by the Shadow Chief

Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start

with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called

the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet

do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back

socialism? We are a democratic socialist party. We make no

apologies for that. The most important thing is that we have the

apologies for that. The most policies that will improve people 's

lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.

Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

for 38 out of the 39 months but David Cameron has been Prime

Minister. I think that is the most important thing. So it is OK now to

risk their to the Labour Party again as the Socialist party? The clue is

in the name, we stand up for working people. You are socialist party

according to the leader. We have always been the Labour Party, that

is our name and we stand up for working people, not the privileged

few like this government with their tax cuts for millionaires. Those are

policies that help just the privileged few. The Labour Party is

about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

cannot convince his own councillors, who can he convince?

Well you could say that two thirds of councillors think that he is the

right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of

Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is

the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he

is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

apprenticeships, giving a break to hard-working families who are

struggling. I think people will see what kind of a leader that he is.

Well he has a mountain to climb among all voters. Let me ask the

question. Just 12% see him as a Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

see him as a natural leader. Why? If Prime Minister in waiting, just 2%

you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

those polls. It is hard being leader of the opposition, you cannot

demonstrate how you would be Prime Minister. By nature you are in

opposition. But he has taken on Rupert Murdoch and the press barons.

That is strong leadership, standing up to the vast majority. If you look

at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening

ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader

making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour lead

gone from 14 points one year ago to at most four points now. What went

wrong? Well we are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We

are six or eight points ahead in the polls today. We're still

consistently ahead. It looks as if we would get an overall majority if

there was an election tomorrow. But we have more work to do to convince

more people to vote for Labour. But this is a historic challenge, to be

a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

school children. How much will that cost? When Labour were in

government, they ring fenced money to provide after-school --

after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

can charge for children to come to their first clubs. But this is a

policy that does not involve additional money. As it was under

the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

you could provide wraparound childcare for every family

schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

to provide that wraparound care. So where is the money being spent now

that you would take it from? If we look at some of the things that this

government is doing, building free schools in areas where there are

already enough. That is capital spending. We are ring fencing that

many. Again, it is different priorities. We had the ring fence

when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools had

to offer that wraparound care. Of course schools can charge a small

to offer that wraparound care. Of fee for their breakfast clubs and

after-school DVDs. But the important thing is that provision is there for

parents going out to work. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband are at the heart of

the Brown project. Damien Wright was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

that they did not know what he was the hit man. Is it not inconceivable

up to. It is inconceivable that they did not -- Damian McBride. I am

asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

He has led by example. There is not that backstabbing going on. There is

no plotting against Ed Balls going on? I do not see that. And anyone

who briefed against colleagues should be sacked, I agree with that.

Nick Clegg's conference speech made it clear he was repaired to work

with Ed Miliband in the event of a hung parliament. Are you excited by

that prospect or is it just boring? That is very generous of Nick Clegg

to say that. With his poll ratings of 9%. I think it is up to the

general public to decide who they want to form a government. We are

campaigning for an overall Labour government at the next election. Are

you excited by the prospect, or is that just boring boring? I want to

serve in a Labour government is not a coalition government. That is what

we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards, what

has Ed Miliband got to do this week? He has got to start to win the

argument about the economy. I think they will be quite clever on that in

terms of saying that the recovery has begun but it is not going to

benefit many of the voters. Unlike previous economic recoveries. That

is a strong line and they need to make that again and again. The

recovery has barely started. The make that again and again. The

interesting thing, Isabel, they want to make a living standards the issue

now because growth has returned, let's return to living standards

which have been squeezed. The polls show that twice as many people blame

Labour for the living standards than the Conservatives. It is a great

scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

fixing the recovery now and then we'll focus on living standards,

whereas Labour is trying to say, you cannot quite trust us with the

economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's main

job this week is to begin elucidating policies and not just

themes, and that makes elucidating policies and not just

incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

you bold rubble and you can see that coming through already before the

conference has started. You have sketchy ideas on child, --

childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free? --

can he provide wraparound childcare for free? I don't even know what it

is. Opposition is emphatically an art form, and the art form, and the

artform for them at the moment is to announce policies without spending

any money and it is very difficult to do. You gave an illustration of

how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything. This

is where it an artform. The tax suspension before and election is

crazy, because they will find money one way or another, but in another

way, they cannot say we will spend money on this. It is a real problem.

How do you measure the state of the coalition after the Liberal Democrat

conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after

their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,

including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the most

important part of the conference. In terms of the coalition, the Tories

have had to sit and watch as Vince Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have

basically criticised them and said they are evil and only the Lib Dems

can make sure the Government is fair and works properly. So in terms of

how the coalition works, you can expect to see some revenge at the

Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick Clegg's followers, they had their

revenge. Mister Clegg may have convinced his own activists to stay

behind him, but he has a bigger challenge, which is called

convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they

have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of

the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have to

do is target policies remorselessly at that group, rather than the

broader public, in order to do well enough at the next election to hold

the balance of power. That is why policies that seem weird to us, like

free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to

them. Because it appeals to their demographic. It is a strange

political world we are in, the Labour strategists think they can

win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going to concentrate on 25. The Tories

have seized to be a national party any more. We haven't been used to it

for a long time. In the 80s, one party dominated, the Tories. In the

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

have other parties hoping that 36% will give them a small overall

majority and it is the best they can get. It is a very odd situation

where the main two parties feel they can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for the

Conservatives to say that he is blocking all of the things that

voters outside of our bays are interested in, top immigration

policy, human rights reform, that sort of thing. David Cameron can say

that in Manchester next week. One thing was quite clear, it came out

of this awayday, and and this is this, that when you look at Mister

Miller band's polls, the Tories are going to make this a presidential

election -- Ed Miliband's polls. Which is why I am curious why they

are not more keen on TV debates. When the strength of your party is

the visibility of your leader against his opponents, why not have

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

Let's turn now to the coalition. The past week has given us inklings of

how the yellow half of the Government is planning on fighting

how the yellow half of the the General Election.

When the Lib Dems gathered for their annual shindig in Glasgow, some

ministers were non-too complimentary about their blue blood fellows. --

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the way in stick in the boot in, saying the

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

the Lib Dems had champion, such as and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

shake hands again after the 20 15th election, what policies were David

Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No matter how many times Nick Clegg

says no? matter how many times Nick Clegg

And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday Interview.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick Clegg, Doctor Know himself,

self-styled. He boasted to his conference that he had stopped the

Tories from going ahead with 16 policies in government. Is this

accurate? I don't know but what I can tell you, as your commentator

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

majority government sent out to be very popular things, like reforming

the human rights act and some of the problems that provides when it comes

to sending people who have no right to be in this country back. So there

may be some things we could have made progress on. You are in

government, did he stop the inheritance tax cut? I don't know

the details, but I think it is absolutely true to say that

coalitions are a process of negotiation and sometimes you can't

get everything you want, and we had done the best, given where the

electoral maths left us. That is why 70 people in this country say they

would rather see a single party running the country -- why so many

people. I have to say I agree. They are not sure which single party.

Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you had

had a majority in 2010 and were not held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

the one I just mentioned would be the Human Rights Act. In This

Country, we have had 1,000 years of developing the law and we are more

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

has a great future but we can only grasp that country if we make

ourselves the best place in the world to come and set up a business.

ourselves the best place in the If we make ourselves the best place

in Europe to develop jobs and entrepreneurship and I think there

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

will come, we know it is in May 2015 but that is in part being in a

coalition. The Tories wouldn't have done that? It wasn't the plan of any

party to go from... In the old days, there would have been speculation.

You turned it into a national debate, you changed the British

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been good

for the economy. we will chalk that up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about

taking people out of tax, the Lib Dems did that question mark it is a

great policy. It is a conservative led government, it is a Conservative

government massively Chancellor. This is a screen grab from your

party's website, income tax cut to 25 million people. You are taking

the credit for it, it wouldn't have happened without the Lib Dems. It

certainly came about because of the coalition and we put it in the

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

Chancellor making it happen. It is right, 25 million people taken out

of tax. Another 17 by this April will not be paying tax at all. you

didn't want to do it. Look at what David Cameron told Nick Clegg during

the leaders debate in 2010. What Nick Clegg is promising is a

£17 billion tax cut. We are saying, stop the waste of 6 billion to stop

the national insurance rise. I would love to take everyone out of their

first £10,000 of income tax, it is a love to take everyone out of their

beautiful idea but we cannot afford it. It wasn't in your manifesto.

Mister Cameron said it was unaffordable and now you are taking

the credit for it. I feel like it is having a three year afterwards

argument, and we got into coalition because the British people put us

there and we agreed to make the best of it. And as it happens, if you

want to hear a confession, I absolutely think it is the right

thing to take as many people out of tax entirely as possible. Two points

7 million people pay no tax at all because of this rise in the

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are the

most important thing is a majority Tory government would do after 2015,

unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when

unemployment goes down, because we think produce even more jobs when

are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more

free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global

trading economy. That is why it is so important that we have to make

sure it is easy to trade around the world. One simple example, it is

crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the

hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the

world, from exporting to us and vice versa. I'm giving you a platform of

things that I think we would be more interested in progressing in. It

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

agendas. I think that you did a huge amount to show this country that if

you want to help the least well off people in society, and the least

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open to

free trade. If there is another hung parliament, and the poll suggest

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

you don't end up with negotiation after an election. We will be

setting out a very clear platform which will be for hard-working

people in this country who want to work hard and get on in life. We

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out and

do a day's work and get the money at the end of the day rather than

thinking there is an alternative. you have promised a referendum on UK

membership of the EU in 2017, that must be your first Red Line? We are

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to have

a say. You will know from our manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

with Mr King? I do not think it is terribly helpful for any Cabinet

minister to make comments like that. What I would say is that Nick Clegg

minister to make comments like that. is the leader of the Lib Dems and

entitled to have a view on it himself. Look at these figures on

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

party membership. Why has your party Cameron became leader? I would like

it to be more. But I think the world has changed. People do not rush out

and join political parties as they used to. Instead they support you in

different ways. If I released the number of people who give to the

party in different ways, through donations for example, through

friend memberships. If you include that that figure goes back up. But

your membership has fallen by 50% at a time when UKIP has doubled. I do

not want to to misinterpret what I want to say. It is important to gain

members. I think we will have done that by the time of the next

election. But one statistic of interest, in the last election I had

a 17,000 majority in my own constituency. The difference was I

had 1000 people helping me to deliver leaflets and knock on the

doors. The Conservative party has changed. We now have an army of

people, volunteers who are not necessarily traditional members. The

days when you expect people to give you £25, before you accept their

support, those days have passed. You spoke about your most vulnerable

marginal seats. This is a poll from Michael Ashcroft. The 40 most

marginal seats that you will be defending. Labour is way up, you are

way down and UKIP is also up. What is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- both

are moving to Labour. And disillusioned Conservatives are

moving to UKIP. If these figures came at an election he would lose 32

of these 40 seats. The point about any opinion poll is that it is

perhaps accurate at the moment it is taken. We are now in a position

where the economy has turned the corner. The right thing to do was to

deal with the deficit. The people being asked about these things, they

will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage

payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League

you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to

come 2015, people will see that this government has stuck to its guns. It

did not go for more borrowing and spending. And the record

demonstrates that the last thing you want to do is give the car keys back

to the people who crashed it in the first place. Lynton Crosby at this

away day of Conservative MPs, his one message was to go all out and

attack Ed Miliband. It is going to be a nasty election. That is

actually not true. We are going to focus on his policies, if he finally

announces some. Everything we have seen so far suggests it would mean

more borrowing and spending. The shadow chancellor said we would be

ruthless, just a few months later, 27.9 pounds of extra spending

committed by Labour. These are your figures. I will speak to you about

that during the Tory conference. It's just after 11:30. You're

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair

Campbell gives us his not-too-positive review of Damian

McBride's memoirs. Until then, the Sunday Politics

Hello, And Welcome To Sunday Politics In Northern Ireland.

Should Stormont Follow The Lead Of Westminster And Give Free School

Meals To All Children In Primaries One To Three? Or Is There A Better

Way Of Spending The Dinner Money? We'll Hear From The Chair Of The

Education Committee, Mervyn Storey, And Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard. And

Another Saturday Loyalist Protest In Belfast City Centre. Just How

Damaging Are The Demonstrations For Local Businesses?

And Joining Me To Reflect On Another Busy Week In Politics Here, I'm

Joined By The Director Of Include Youth, Koulla Yiasouma And

Journalist Steven Mccaffrey. Our Politicians Have Been Getting

Themselves Into A Bit Of Stew This Week Over How An Extra Allocation Of

Cash From Westminster Should Be Spent. Around £20 Million Is

Expected To Be On Its Way To Stormont After The Deputy Prime

Minister, Nick Clegg, Announced That All Children In Primaries One To

Three In England Are To Get Free All Children In Primaries One To

School Meals. But As Our Education Correspondent, Maggie Taggart,

Reports, Not Everyone Thinks The Policy Is A Good Idea.

If We Get The Same Deal As In England, The Number Of Young

Children Coming Here Could Double. At The Moment, Most Children Take A

Packed Lunch And Half Get A Dinner. What Do Parents Here Think Of The

Plan To Give Out Free Meals? It Is An Excellent Idea. They Should All

Be Treated The Same Way. I do not know if the government could sustain

the cost. If children's families are entitled to school meals, they

should get them. Initially our frustration is this is a top-down

should get them. Initially our government imposed initiative.

Sometimes we think it is better asking schools what are the key

priorities? There is also a worry that a free offer might mean a lot

of food wasted. The younger the children they tend to have a couple

of scoops and the way. The older children are keen on seconds and

thirds. White it is understood Northern Ireland could get about 20

million. But before parents give up making packed lunches we are told

the money would not be ring fenced and the executive should decide

whether it should go towards food or the Department of education. There

was evidence children who eat well known well. Universal free meals

improved performance. There is some evidence of attainment games but

they were not significant for the least affluent. What they did not

compare to those other interventions like one to one tuition. The money

will be formally approved in the next few weeks but will not be

available until this time next year. In the meantime, the assembly will

be chewing over how it will be spent.

Maggie Taggart reporting. I'm joined by two members of the Education

Committee, its Chair, Mervyn Storey, and Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard. You

are Sinn Fein's education spokesman. Do you think John O'Dowd will want

to follow the English example? I am sure John will want to get his money

in the hands first to decide how it will be spent. There are a suite of

measures we could invest in, free school meals is one. We have seen

John extends the criteria so no doubt he will want to get the money

first to see what the benefits could be. Is it your position that free

school meals is an instrument which could help educational attainment

for children of all backgrounds? The health and financial benefits of

without a doubt. It all leads into a culture that needs to academic

success. Is it a blunt instrument in your view, Mervyn? There is evidence

that this is a very blunt instrument. If we separate the menu

in relation to this issue, the then set of free school meals, that is a

very desirable and beneficial outcome. However, if free school

meals are used as a trigger mechanism to ensure that more

funding goes schools, therein lies mechanism to ensure that more

the major disparity and the major problem because a child could be in

receipt of free school meals but problem because a child could be in

could not have access to speak and language and let's remember, what

has been described as the working poor. There are many families who

struggle who do not fall within the threshold and they cannot understand

that every time that it seems working families are penalised.

Given what you have just said, are there more effective ways of using

this money, assuming it comes to education? I think their race. If

you look at the way money is squandered, the issue is not the

amount of money it is the way they spend it. We have seen a fiasco in

relation to levels of progression and they have all been expensive

blunders and failures on the part of the department and I would be

worried about giving the Department of education, given its current

track record, an additional £20 million. It touches on a serious

point. People are wondering why you would use public money to pay for

meals for children whose parents can already pay for those meals. It is

meals for children whose parents can about the culture of schools. Our

children are very acute social and tonight. It is about how the canteen

can become a hub where teachers and all the children sit down, there is

no cars and them, table manners are improved, everything improves. Our

education system, the most fundamental flaw is the poverty

floor and we have to address this. Table manners, if eating together

helps from a social point of view, children who come from socially

deprived backgrounds, their meals would be paid for, they will sit

alongside children whose parents are paying for meals, that is a red

herring. It does not have to be the stereotypical tray with big

lunches. It could be an extension of breakfast clubs but the conversation

lunches. It could be an extension of has started. It is making sure we

address the poverty floor. It is about meeting the needs of children

and this is the difficulty. What is the primary need of children in our

classrooms? It is to ensure their educational needs are met and

clearly we have one in four children leaving primary schools with major

issues. Despite millions of pounds, going back to 1999 when the

Department of education squandered 40 million, we have still not

address that need and it is about need and feed. In that film, Tony

Gallagher was making the point there that there are other areas where the

money could be spent, for example tuition, early years intervention.

Without a doubt. Free school meals is not a silver bullet that will

Without a doubt. Free school meals cause achievement to go up at if you

look at the case of children in low income families, they are 100% less

likely to achieve than those from more affluent families. Why are we

now in a situation when the education Minister, he said he had

no intention, the focus had to be on early years intervention. Now he had

made the announcement he when extended to post primary, so clearly

I think the focus needs to go back to those early years because we have

not and early years policy ten years after what was promised and those

not and early years policy ten years are the heart for delivering the

needs of our children. Just to be clear, will you be recommending your

party colleagues that this £20 million goes in the first instance

to the Department of education and then they soaked up spending should

be eight conversation on how it should be best spent? The current

education minister has refused to enter into the process in relation

to the savings and delivery plans because he believes he is spending

his money well. It is a perverse sense of thinking about it. Have a

case where five or six years ago, 24% of kids in low income families

were achieving good GCSEs. It is now up 10%. Free school meals we will

see 79% of our schools losing out in funding. That is the real reason why

the department is using free school meals.

Mervyn Storey and Chris Hazzard, thank you. With me are Koulla

Yiasouma, Director of Include Youth, and the journalist Steven McCaffery.

You are in the business of advocating for young people, where

the use stand on the school free meals debate? The debate this

morning and the piece demonstrates this is quite complicated. Northern

Ireland has a good education system and then it gets worse as children

get older so free school meals is not the panacea. Free school meals

is only good as the uptake of them. Nutrition benefits young children's

ability to learn and poor ritual during do less well. 34% of children

in time to to free school meals get during do less well. 34% of children

good GCSEs. There is a huge gap. There is a number of initiatives we

need. Free school meals is part of the issue but not the whole answer.

Is that how you see it? It is a very the issue but not the whole answer.

serious issue. The Lib Dems were the issue but not the whole answer.

accused of trying to score political points and attract votes and IM not

suggesting the two main parties are not taking this seriously but you

would be surprised and old enough to remember when Margaret Thatcher took

would be surprised and old enough to away the milk from kids. Is there a

little bit of politics? Again, perish the thought that politicians

would be like that. I am in no doubt the elections are playing a part. It

is enormously complicated and there is no guarantee that this money will

go to education in the first instance. We have priorities in

government but I really think there are bottomless pits. If this money

is done for education, it should go to the Department of education. It

is them and the schools and parents and families need to say what is the

best way to spend this money? How can we bridge the gap? Chris

Hazzard, do you think there may be some truth in DD UPI looking over

their shoulder? I sit in studios and committee rooms and we talk about

the need to tackle underachievement, especially in low income

communities. Here is an example of the best way to do it. Let everyone

step up to the plate and say let's go forward. That is the reason this

has been done. However, if it is about convincing the electorate that

this has been a good news story, let's see free school meals being

used for political reasons. A very interesting debate. Thank you very

much for joining us. Let's take a look back at the political week in

60 seconds. US diplomats Richard Harris and

Megan O'Sullivan begin the attempt to resolve the issues flags,

protests and the past. The fact that this process was created by the

leadership of Northern Ireland suggests to me there is well. Martin

McGuinness remembers the past and next to the future with some but not

all went -- bewilderment. As an investigation begins into child

exportation, one MLA reveals why she abandoned the bill to clamp down on

abuse. They taught me that this was not an issue and what I was

proposing was criminalise young people in care. Free school meals

for all infant pupils in England but will be assembly go for it? And the

new finance minister starts with a smile.

Gareth Gordon reporting. Another Saturday, another loyalist

demonstration. It's now nine months since Belfast City Council voted to

fly the union flag only on designated days. But the protests

continue with an estimated 1,000 people marching from City Hall at

lunchtime yesterday just as traders might have been expecting peak

business. With me now is Ian Coulter, the

business. Chair of the CBI here.

About 1000 people took part in the Chair of the CBI here.

parade and there were several thousands supporting them on the

way. What is your verdict on what happened yesterday? I would like to

take a step back and comment on the specific. Over the last 12 months

there has been an explosion of the numbers of parades not just in

Belfast but across Northern Ireland. If you look at the retail city

centre figures, they have dropped by 10% which is a massive figure. Zero

all to do with the protest. Is not at all but it is a major

contributory factor. Your organisation has said that the

protests this year is £15 million. That is an estimate but if you look

at the figure, that is £55 million. This is the effect of things in the

city centre but there is a hidden cost. All these protests and

parades, be it whatever community, just adds up an extra layer of

uncertainty as to where we are at the moment. Yesterday's parade was

entirely peaceful. I accept that but you have one office and you put them

all together... All of these discussions and business tends to be

quite slow, where the rights for the business people? -- where are the

right? How do you communicate that? You represent the business

community, you talk to the politicians. How do you communicate

with them and the people participating in organising these

protests that it is not good for Belfast plc for that situation to

continue? What we are calling on is restraint. The media plays a role in

this. Yesterday, one of the retailers said the way the media pro

trade yesterday 's events properly contributed as much to the lack of

trade as to anything else. How is that the case? You simply report the

fact it is happening. A retailer confirmed that the media coverage on

Friday and Saturday did as much harm. You should talk about it but

do not exaggerate it. Give me an example. There was an e-mail that

was sent on Friday that there were going to be five or 600 participants

or possibly up to 1000 maximum and on Saturday morning, other reports

were of 3-4000 people. There is a need for restraint on all sides. We

can deal with specifics but I would move back a bit. What we need to do

is we need to find a way that for people who have got businesses in

Belfast and businesses that are trying to grow internationally, how

do you break the cycle and get the numbers of these parades and

protests down to a manageable level? There is a challenge here to

square that circle between people knowing what is happening and that

square that circle between people being effectively reported but not

exaggerating it in advance and not hyping it up for a people want to

break the law. The media have to take their share of responsibility

but weeks ago, we had a riot on Royal Avenue so I do not think the

media can necessarily be blamed for causing public concern around

yesterday 's parade. If people stayed away they stayed away because

of what has been happening over the last year but the media have to play

a careful role. How concerned are you at the potential impact of

continuing parades on businesses to employ local people who depend on

those jobs to continue running their families? Sometimes I think people

forget the connections. We are based in Belfast city centre and I just

forget the connections. We are based want to make a quick comparison. On

Friday, we had culture night where 30,000 people thronged the streets.

There was a march parade in the middle of Belfast in the afternoon.

There was no e-mails saying be careful, so we do need to be

careful. We need people protected. I want to see people marching because

of property and to protect their rights. Generally they do not result

in the destruction of property and we need to be careful as to how we

manage this. The other issue is Richard Haas and the political

developments. You went in with others to speak to Richard on

Friday. Were you impressed with his handle on where we are? Greatly

impressed. His team was very well briefed. Got to the issues

immediately. I think they have the right team to help here and it bodes

well. Is that the kind of noise you have been picking up as well? One

feature of the talks process that has not caught the public emotion

nation is the degree to which Washington is watching. Joe Biden

could be visiting here so we need to get this right. BR the story of the

week which is Safeguarding Children Board. We need to get better, let's

remember we have been protecting children, we need to do it better

together across all agencies. Thank Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very

much. Leafing through the papers the Blackman and Sadiq Khan, thanks very

last few days has taken me back to my youth. The halcyon days of the

2000s, when the warring Blairite and Brownite tribes fought over who

should run the Labour Party. Gordon Brown's chief spin doctor Damian

McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his enemies - has published his memoirs,

timed for maximum impact in the week of Labour's Conference. They detail

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

Ministers - Labour Cabinet Ministers, that is - and fought

tooth and nail to promote the man he called "the greatest man he ever

met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us now is Tony Blair's former Director of

Communications, Alastair Campbell. You are angry about what he has done

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at this

time. But also because of the lies that he told at the time that he now

confirms. I was director of communications and trying to hold

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

where I said if Whelan does not go, I will go. And when Damian McBride

was on the scene I was clear that I was not going to have anything to do

with him. Because of what he is now admitting to, I think they played

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

public were being fed by them, this narrative, the whole time. That

Blair was useless, Charles Clarke was useless. And I think that we

where the government and had very good ministers trying to do big

things for the country. I said this morning it was like being a foot

tall team were on the pitch you had your own players kicking the star

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

we would still be there. The If we had all stuck together I think

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

they were only doing that to undermine Tony Blair and to promote

their man, Gordon Brown. It is inconceivable then that Gordon Brown

did not know about it. Well in spite of everything I always had a

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

ministers. That was my golden rule. So we were presented as being...

People say you were the forerunner. I know it was not the case. One of

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

Peter and I are probably most associated with, once I wrote a

piece where I spoke about the journalists as the spin doctors. But

actually within the government, I journalists as the spin doctors. But

had a principle of maximum openness and trust. Anyone could come to the

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

coming. Because I knew where it was coming from. Did you know that the

time but Charles Clarke and others were effectively being destroyed

from within the Labour government? I certainly knew that they thought

that. I did know journalists telling me that that was what was happening.

Ultimately, this is why I never buy this thing that you can blame

leaders, it is ultimately up to the litre. Possibly in a different age

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

giving him and the Labour Party and politics a bad name. That is why I'm

still angry about Damian McBride. What do you make of it? The current

administration is a contrast. We have rival factions occupying the

same offices but they still get on. The only time they have a row is

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

I would assume so. I spoke with him about it at the time. He told me at

the time that he had spoken about it with Gordon Brown. So I think there

was a concern from within that camp about some of these activities at

the time. With this myth of equivalence, in life you expect to

see that there is full on both sides. But I do not buy it in this

see that there is full on both case. If you look at the testimonies

see that there is full on both over the years, what you can surmise

about the character of Gordon Brown and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately

driven by Gordon Brown and the people around him. The Blairites did

things but they did then by way of retaliation rather than initiation.

The one-time when I did lose it was the whole psychological force thing.

That came at the end of a period when we were relentlessly being done

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

briefings and Stephen and his colleagues would be there and I just

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your own

credibility is on the line. Coming on the Labour conference. The

promotion of alcohol awareness. But before that the Labour Party, you

never had to deal with this in opposition because you were pretty

far ahead in the polls by midterm. This time that is not the case. It

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

about what he believes. And particularly the kind of policy

agenda he is shaping for the future. And start to heart -- start to hit

the Tories hard. They're not pop, they're not competent. They're

screwing up the health service. And yet they are neck and neck. I would

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet and Labour Party has got to

understand that you win elections by wanting to win elections every

minute of every day. There is too much complacency. A small lead now

you have to grow that. You do that with energy and conviction and

policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole bead in the run-up to 1997. We were

winning seat where we had not even campaigned and he was saying, why

celebrate because we have not won yet. You are promoting your alcohol

awareness campaign. Perhaps the party conference is not the best

place to do that! That is one reason why I am doing that. I'm hosting

probably the only alcohol free reception of the week! There is

nothing worse than a convert, I know that. But I travel a lot. I travel

around the world and Britain has a reputation as being the blues

capital of the world. That is something we should be ashamed of.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

problem but we spent £2 billion on 100,000 problem drug takers and £91

million on 1.6 million problem drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

have written this book about a young drinkers. Part of this campaign, you

alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in the first person. People could think

you are writing about yourself. Why did you choose a teenage girl? Well

partly, I dedicated this to the families of alcoholics. And I

dedicated it to one doctor in Southampton. He told me when he

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

emergency. I watched the foot all, just can't the number of

advertisements for gambling and advertising. How have we allowed

this to happen, ? We are just awash with it. What we did I think on

24-hour licensing was a mistake. Availability and price either too

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

back on BBC Two tomorrow at 11:30am with live coverage of Labour Party

Conference, including the speech from the man who wants to be the

next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.