24/11/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


24/11/2013

Andrew Neil and Mark Carruthers present the latest political stories, with Conservative chairman Grant Shapps and a look at Ed Miliband's choices for Desert Island Discs.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the

:00:42.:00:44.

Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant

:00:45.:00:47.

Shapps. Five years on from the financial

:00:48.:00:50.

crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't

:00:51.:00:53.

the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the

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City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on

:00:59.:01:02.

his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These

:01:03.:01:06.

days, not so much. Has the plan to make

:01:07.:01:06.

Coming up here - the DUP leader, make the

:01:07.:01:11.

Coming up here - the DUP leader, Peter Robinson, on the challenge of

:01:12.:01:14.

making unionism more open and inviting, union flag protests and

:01:15.:01:17.

the debate over running a second Euro candidate. Join us

:01:18.:01:19.

homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?

:01:20.:01:26.

And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows

:01:27.:01:31.

can only dream of. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They'll

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be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes,

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they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from

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Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities

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in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the

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enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some

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funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive

:02:01.:02:04.

deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama

:02:05.:02:06.

had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive

:02:07.:02:15.

diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our

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partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,

:02:20.:02:23.

as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a

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new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we

:02:30.:02:35.

can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it

:02:36.:02:42.

cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White

:02:43.:02:45.

House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a

:02:46.:02:51.

full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and

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end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good. The

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Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the

:03:02.:03:04.

Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq overnight, which is exactly what the

:03:05.:03:10.

is 40%, so they need a stronger currency. -- information in Iran.

:03:11.:03:16.

France has played a blinder. It was there intransigence that led to

:03:17.:03:20.

this. Otherwise, I think the West would have led to a much softer

:03:21.:03:25.

deal. The question now becomes implementation. Here, everything

:03:26.:03:30.

hinges on two questions. First, who is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the

:03:31.:03:35.

Iranians Gorbachev, a serious reformer, or he's here much more

:03:36.:03:40.

tactical and cynical figure? Or, within Iran, how powerful is he?

:03:41.:03:46.

There are military men and intelligence officials within Iran

:03:47.:03:53.

who may stymie the process. The Western media concentrate on the

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fact that Mr Netanyahu and the Israelis are not happy about this.

:03:58.:04:00.

They don't often mention that the Arab Gulf states are also very

:04:01.:04:05.

apprehensive about this deal. I read this morning that the enemies of

:04:06.:04:14.

Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king. -- the MAs row. That is the key

:04:15.:04:22.

thing to watch in the next couple of weeks. There was a response from

:04:23.:04:27.

Saudi Arabia, but it came from the Prime Minister of Israel, who said

:04:28.:04:32.

this was a historic mistake. The United States said there would be no

:04:33.:04:36.

enrichment of uranium to weapons grade. In the last few minutes, the

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Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted to say that there is an inalienable

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right -- right to enrich. The key thing is the most important thing

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that President Obama said in his inaugural speech. He reached out to

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Iran. It failed under President McKenna jab. Under President

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Rouhani, there seems to be progress. There is potentially now what he

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talked about in that first inaugural address potentially coming through.

:05:11.:05:16.

In the end, the key issue - and we don't know the answer - is the

:05:17.:05:21.

supreme leader, not the president. Will the supreme leader agreed to

:05:22.:05:25.

Iran giving up its ability to create nuclear weapons? This is the huge

:05:26.:05:32.

ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei authorise the position that

:05:33.:05:37.

President Rouhani took to Geneva. That doesn't mean he will sign off

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on every bit of implementation over the next six months. Even when

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President Ahmadinejad was president, he wasn't really President. We in

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the West have to resort to a kind of Iranians version of the study of the

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Kremlin, to work out what is going on. And the problem the president

:05:57.:06:08.

faces is that if there is any sign... He can unlock these funds by

:06:09.:06:14.

executive order at the moment, but if he needs any more, he has to go

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to Congress. Both the Democrat and the Republican side have huge

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scepticism about this. And he has very low credibility now. There's

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already been angry noises coming from quite a lot of senators. It was

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quite strange to see that photo of John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as

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if they had survived a ship great together. John Kerry is clearly

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feeling very happy. We will keep an eye on this. It is a fascinating

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development. More lurid details about the

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personal life of the Co-op Bank's disgraced former chairman, the

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Reverend Paul Flowers. The links between Labour, the bank and the

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wider Co-op movement have caused big problems for Ed Miliband this week,

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and the Conservatives have been revelling in it. But do the Tory

:07:06.:07:11.

allegations - Ed Miliband calls them "smears" - stack up? Party Chairman

:07:12.:07:19.

Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield. Welcome to the programme. When it

:07:20.:07:27.

comes to the Co-op, what are you accusing Labour of knowing and when?

:07:28.:07:34.

I think the simple thing to say here is that the Co-op is an important

:07:35.:07:39.

bank. They have obviously got into difficulty with Reverend flowers,

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and our primary concern is making sure that that is properly

:07:44.:07:47.

investigated, and that we understand what happened at the bank and how

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somebody like Paul Flowers could have ended up thing appointed

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chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband on Tuesday and asked him what he

:07:57.:08:02.

knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed Miliband. But by Prime Minister's

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Questions on Wednesday, David Cameron claims that you knew that

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Labour knew about his past all along. What is the evidence for

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that? We found out by Wednesday that he had been a Labour councillor,

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Reverend Flowers, and had been made to stand down. Certainly, Labour

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knew about that, but somehow didn't seem to think that that made him

:08:30.:08:33.

less appropriate to be the chairman of the Co-op bank. There was no

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evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr Balls knew about that. I ask you

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again, what are you accusing the Labour leadership of knowing? We

:08:46.:08:55.

know now that he stood down for very inappropriate images on his

:08:56.:08:59.

computer, apparently. You are telling me that they didn't know. I

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am not sure that is clear at all. I have heard conflicting reports.

:09:05.:09:07.

There is a much bigger argument about what they knew and when. There

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was a much bigger issue here. This morning, Ed Miliband has

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was a much bigger issue here. This they don't have to answer these

:09:17.:09:19.

questions and that these smears. This is ludicrous. These are

:09:20.:09:23.

important questions about an important bank, how it ended up

:09:24.:09:26.

getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia

:09:27.:09:33.

deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how

:09:34.:09:40.

the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the

:09:41.:09:44.

questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are

:09:45.:09:48.

accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the

:09:49.:09:54.

drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was

:09:55.:10:03.

known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew

:10:04.:10:06.

about these very difficult Labour, the party, certainly knew

:10:07.:10:09.

circumstances in which he resigned as a councillor. I think that the

:10:10.:10:15.

Labour Party knew about it. We knew that Bradford did, but not London.

:10:16.:10:20.

Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew about the inappropriate material on

:10:21.:10:25.

the Reverend's laptop? It is certainly the case that Labour knew

:10:26.:10:32.

about it. But did Mr Miliband know about it, and his predilection for

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rent boys? He will need to answer those questions. It is quite proper

:10:39.:10:43.

to ask those questions. Surely, asking a perfectly legitimate set of

:10:44.:10:47.

questions, not just about that but about how we have ended up in a

:10:48.:10:51.

situation where this bank has made loans to Labour for millions of

:10:52.:10:56.

pounds, that bank and the Unite bank, who is connected to it. And

:10:57.:11:03.

how they made a ?50,000 donation to Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that

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was nothing to do with Reverend Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers

:11:08.:11:13.

said that he personally signed that off. Lots of questions to answer.

:11:14.:11:18.

David Cameron has already answered them on Wednesday. He said that you

:11:19.:11:24.

now know that Labour knew about his past all along. You have not been

:11:25.:11:28.

able to present evidence that involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in

:11:29.:11:32.

that. So until you get that, surely you should apologise? Hang on. He

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said that Labour knew about this, and they did, because he stood down

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as a councillor. If Ed Miliband didn't know about that, then why

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not? This was quite a serious thing that happened. The wider point is

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about why it is that when you ask that happened. The wider point is

:11:51.:11:55.

perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,

:11:56.:11:58.

and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is

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all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with

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the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare

:12:12.:12:16.

changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider

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picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over

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the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept

:12:34.:12:37.

that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions

:12:38.:12:44.

for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls

:12:45.:12:46.

for regulatory reason. The very pleased... But you supported

:12:47.:12:54.

that decision. There was a later deal, potentially, for the Co-op to

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buy those Lloyds branches. There was a proper process and it didn't go

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through just recently. If there had been a proper process back in 2009,

:13:06.:13:09.

would the Britannia deal have gone through? First, you accept that the

:13:10.:13:16.

Tories were in favour of the Britannia take over. Then your

:13:17.:13:22.

Chancellor Osborne went out of his way to facilitate the purchase of

:13:23.:13:25.

the Lloyds branches, even though you had no idea that the Co-op had the

:13:26.:13:31.

management expertise to become a super medium. Correct? The

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difference is that that deal didn't go through. There was a proper

:13:37.:13:43.

process that took place. Let's look at the process. There was long

:13:44.:13:49.

indications as far back as January 2012 that the Co-op, as a direct

:13:50.:13:56.

result of the Britannia take over which you will party supported, was

:13:57.:14:00.

unfit to acquire the Lloyds branches. By January 2012, the

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Chancellor and the Treasury ignored the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there

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was political pressure for the Britannia to be brought together.

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Based on the information available, this was supported, but that process

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ended up with a very, very problematic takeover of the

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Britannia. Wind forward to this year, and when the same types of

:14:23.:14:28.

issues were being looked at for the purchase of the Lloyds deal, the

:14:29.:14:29.

proper process was followed, purchase of the Lloyds deal, the

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time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is

:14:35.:14:38.

important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it

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transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the

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Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition

:14:53.:14:57.

of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not

:14:58.:15:00.

have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,

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but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to

:15:05.:15:09.

Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on

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earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of

:15:15.:15:18.

Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the

:15:19.:15:22.

mutuals to the Co-op. He was arguing for the

:15:23.:15:25.

ruling. The idea was to make sure that every bank in Britain could

:15:26.:15:31.

have a better deal, particularly the mutuals, as you say. That is a

:15:32.:15:35.

proper thing for the Chancellor to be doing. We could go round in

:15:36.:15:40.

circles here, but in the end, there was not a takeover of the Lloyds

:15:41.:15:43.

branches, that is because we followed a proper process. Had that

:15:44.:15:48.

same rigorous process been followed in 2009, the legitimate question to

:15:49.:15:53.

ask is whether the Co-op would have been -- would have taken over the

:15:54.:15:56.

Britannia. That is a proper question to ask. It is no good to have the

:15:57.:16:00.

leader of the opposition say, as soon as you ask any of these

:16:01.:16:04.

questions about anything where there is a problem for them, they come

:16:05.:16:09.

back with, oh, this is all smears. There are questions to ask about

:16:10.:16:12.

what the Labour government did, the debt and the deficit they left the

:16:13.:16:17.

country with, the way they stopped work from paying in this country.

:16:18.:16:21.

The big question your government has two answer is, why, by July 2012,

:16:22.:16:26.

when it was clear there was a black hole in the Co-op's balance sheet,

:16:27.:16:31.

your government re-confirmed the Co-op as the preferred bidder for

:16:32.:16:35.

Lloyds - why would you do that? Well, look, the good thing is, we

:16:36.:16:39.

can discuss this until the cows come home, but there is going to be a

:16:40.:16:44.

proper, full investigation, so we will find out what happened, all the

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way back. So, we will be able to get to the bottom of all of this. Grant

:16:49.:16:52.

Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds deal did not go ahead was, despite

:16:53.:16:56.

the Treasury cheerleading, when Lloyds began its due diligence, it

:16:57.:17:02.

found that there was indeed a huge black hole in the balance sheet and

:17:03.:17:06.

that the Co-op was not fit to take over its branches. That wasn't

:17:07.:17:09.

that the Co-op was not fit to take it wasn't the Government, it was not

:17:10.:17:13.

the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal

:17:14.:17:19.

to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which

:17:20.:17:23.

did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper

:17:24.:17:27.

process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the

:17:28.:17:33.

previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be

:17:34.:17:38.

that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure

:17:39.:17:41.

perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so

:17:42.:17:49.

disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to

:17:50.:17:55.

go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent

:17:56.:17:58.

review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,

:17:59.:18:03.

review. What I cannot understand is, independent review, the response you

:18:04.:18:07.

get to these serious questions. The response is, oh, this is a smear. It

:18:08.:18:12.

is crazy. We are trying to answer the big questions for this country.

:18:13.:18:16.

We have done all of that, and we are out of time. The Reverend Flowers'

:18:17.:18:25.

chairmanship of the Co-op bank was approved by the regulator at the

:18:26.:18:29.

time, which no longer exists. It was swept away by the coalition

:18:30.:18:33.

government in a supposed revolution in regulation. But will its

:18:34.:18:37.

replacement, the Financial Conduct Authority, be different? Adam has

:18:38.:18:47.

been to find out. Come with me for a spin around the Square mile to find

:18:48.:18:50.

out how we regulate our financial sector, which is almost five times

:18:51.:18:53.

bigger sector, which is almost five times

:18:54.:18:58.

annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,

:18:59.:19:03.

who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the

:19:04.:19:09.

financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to

:19:10.:19:12.

supervise the banks on a day-to-day basis. The Bank of England was

:19:13.:19:16.

supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial

:19:17.:19:20.

system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these

:19:21.:19:24.

things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or

:19:25.:19:30.

main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as

:19:31.:19:34.

a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new

:19:35.:19:38.

system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays

:19:39.:19:41.

here, with the Bank of England, and City. Most of the responsibly delays

:19:42.:19:48.

its new Prudential Regulation Authority. And the Financial

:19:49.:19:53.

Services Authority has been replaced with the new Financial Conduct

:19:54.:19:58.

Authority. Can we go to the financial conduct authority, please?

:19:59.:20:03.

Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is all about whether the people in

:20:04.:20:08.

financial services are playing by the rules, in particular, how they

:20:09.:20:12.

treat their customers. This place has got new powers, like the ability

:20:13.:20:16.

to ban products it does not like, a new mandate to promote competition

:20:17.:20:21.

in the market, the concept being, more competition means a better

:20:22.:20:25.

market, plus the idea that a new organisation rings a whole new

:20:26.:20:31.

culture. Although these are the old offices of the FSA, so maybe not

:20:32.:20:36.

quite so new after all. It has also inherited the case of the Co-op bank

:20:37.:20:40.

and its disgraced former chairman the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA

:20:41.:20:43.

will be part of the investigation into what happened, which will

:20:44.:20:47.

probably involve looking at its own conduct. One member of the

:20:48.:20:53.

Parliamentary commission into banking wonders whether the new

:20:54.:20:57.

regulator, and its new boss, are up to it. I have always said, it is not

:20:58.:21:02.

the architecture which is the issue, it is the powers that the regulator

:21:03.:21:06.

has, and today, it does not seem to me as if there is any increase in

:21:07.:21:11.

that. And with the unfolding scandal at the Co-op, it feels like the new

:21:12.:21:16.

architecture for regulating the City is now facing its first big test.

:21:17.:21:23.

And the chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority, the

:21:24.:21:27.

SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now. Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The

:21:28.:21:30.

failure of bank regulation was one failure of bank regulation was one

:21:31.:21:34.

of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in

:21:35.:21:39.

2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why

:21:40.:21:45.

have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes

:21:46.:21:50.

since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,

:21:51.:21:54.

we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank

:21:55.:21:58.

and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul

:21:59.:22:01.

Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was

:22:02.:22:04.

appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going

:22:05.:22:10.

from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he

:22:11.:22:15.

only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But

:22:16.:22:19.

the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA

:22:20.:22:22.

operated. He was challenged, we did the time, the system which the FSA

:22:23.:22:26.

challenge him, and we said, you do not have the right experience, but

:22:27.:22:31.

at the time, we would not have opposed the appointment. What we

:22:32.:22:34.

needed was additional representation of the board of people who did have

:22:35.:22:38.

banking experience. You can say that that was then and this is now, but

:22:39.:22:42.

up until April of this year, it was still the plan for the Co-op, under

:22:43.:22:47.

Mr Flowers, and despite being seriously wounded by the Britannia

:22:48.:22:52.

takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds branches. That was the Co-op's

:22:53.:22:57.

plan. They needed to pass our test as to whether we thought they were

:22:58.:23:01.

fit to do that, and frankly, they never passed that test. It was not

:23:02.:23:05.

the regulator that stopped them? It was. We were constantly pushing

:23:06.:23:09.

back, saying, you have not got the capital, you have no got the

:23:10.:23:12.

systems, and ultimately, they withdrew, when they could not answer

:23:13.:23:17.

our questions. You were asking the right questions, I accept that, but

:23:18.:23:21.

all of the time, the politicians on all sides, they were pushing for it

:23:22.:23:27.

to happen, and I cannot find anywhere where the regulator said,

:23:28.:23:32.

look, this is just not going to happen. I cannot comment on what the

:23:33.:23:36.

politicians were doing, but I continue what we were doing, which

:23:37.:23:39.

was constantly asking the Co-op, have you got the systems in place,

:23:40.:23:42.

have you got the people, have you got the capital? And they didn't.

:23:43.:23:48.

But it only came to a head when Lloyds started its own due diligence

:23:49.:23:51.

on the bank, and they discovered that it was impossible for them to

:23:52.:23:54.

take over the branches, it was not the regulator... In fairness, what

:23:55.:23:59.

we do is ask the questions, can you do this deal? And we kept pushing

:24:00.:24:05.

back, and we never frankly got delivered a business plan which we

:24:06.:24:12.

were happy to approve. Is the SCA going to launch its own inquiry into

:24:13.:24:23.

what happened? -- the FCA. The Chancellor has announced what will

:24:24.:24:27.

be a very broad inquiry. There are a number of specifics which we will be

:24:28.:24:32.

able to look at, relating to events over the last five years. Could

:24:33.:24:36.

there be a police investigation? I think the police have already

:24:37.:24:40.

announced an investigation. I am talking about into the handling of

:24:41.:24:44.

the bank. It depends. There might be, if there is grim low activity,

:24:45.:24:52.

which we do not know yet. You worked at the FS eight, didn't you? I did.

:24:53.:25:01.

Some of those people who were signed off on the speedy promotion of Mr

:25:02.:25:04.

Flowers, are they now working there? Yes, we have some. I came to

:25:05.:25:09.

join the Financial Services Authority, to lead it into the

:25:10.:25:14.

creation of the new body, the SCA. We had people who were challenging

:25:15.:25:26.

and they did the job. There was not a requirement to approve the role as

:25:27.:25:30.

chairman. There was not even a requirement to interview at that

:25:31.:25:34.

stage. What we did do was to require that he was interviewed, and that

:25:35.:25:38.

the Co-op should get additional experience. One of the people from

:25:39.:25:50.

the old organisation, who signed up on the promotion of Mr Flowers to

:25:51.:25:54.

become chairman is now a nonexecutive director of the Co-op,

:25:55.:26:02.

so how does that work? Welcome he was a senior adviser to our

:26:03.:26:05.

organisation, one of the people who made the challenges, and who said,

:26:06.:26:09.

you need more experience on your board. Subsequently he then went and

:26:10.:26:14.

joined the board. Surely that should not be allowed, the regulator and

:26:15.:26:18.

the regulated should not be like that. Well clearly, you need

:26:19.:26:23.

protection, but we have got to get good people in, and frankly, we want

:26:24.:26:27.

the industry to have good people in the industry, so there will be some

:26:28.:26:30.

movement between the regulator and industry. We all wonder whether you

:26:31.:26:34.

have the power or even the confidence to stand up if you look

:26:35.:26:39.

at all of the really bad bank decisions recently, politicians were

:26:40.:26:43.

behind them. It was Gordon Brown who pushed the disastrous merger of

:26:44.:26:47.

Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond who egged on RBS to buy the world.

:26:48.:26:51.

All three main parties wanted the Co-op to buy Britannia, even though

:26:52.:26:56.

they did not know the debt it would inherit, and all three wanted the

:26:57.:27:00.

Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches - how do you as a regulator stand up

:27:01.:27:05.

to that little concert party? Well, that political pressure exists, our

:27:06.:27:10.

job at the end of the day is to do a relatively technical job and say,

:27:11.:27:14.

does it stack up? And it didn't, and we made that point time and time

:27:15.:27:18.

again to the Co-op board. They did not have a business case that we

:27:19.:27:21.

could approve. The bodies on left and right -- the politicians on left

:27:22.:27:28.

and right gave the Co-op special support. They may have done, but

:27:29.:27:36.

that was not you have made a warning about these payday lenders, but I

:27:37.:27:39.

think what most people would like to see is a limit put on the interest

:27:40.:27:43.

they can charge over a period of time - will you do that? We have got

:27:44.:27:48.

a whole set of powers for payday lenders. We will bring in some

:27:49.:27:52.

changes from April next year, and we will bring in further changes as we

:27:53.:27:56.

see necessary. Will you put a limit on the interest they can charge?

:27:57.:28:00.

That is something we can study. You do not sound too keen on it? Well,

:28:01.:28:05.

there are a lot of changes we need to make. One change is limiting

:28:06.:28:10.

rollovers, limiting the use of continuous payment authorities.

:28:11.:28:13.

Simply jumping to one trigger would be a mistake. Finally, an issue

:28:14.:28:19.

which I think is becoming a growing concern, because the Government is

:28:20.:28:22.

thinking of subsidising them, 95% mortgages are back - should we not

:28:23.:28:27.

be worried about that? I think we should if the market has the same

:28:28.:28:30.

experiences that we had back should if the market has the same

:28:31.:28:35.

- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our

:28:36.:28:40.

mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put

:28:41.:28:43.

affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You

:28:44.:28:55.

have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have

:28:56.:28:56.

many challenges. It was once called the battle of the

:28:57.:29:06.

mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style

:29:07.:29:07.

modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction

:29:08.:29:10.

and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on

:29:11.:29:17.

changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he

:29:18.:29:23.

promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need

:29:24.:29:27.

more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He

:29:28.:29:33.

told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the

:29:34.:29:38.

day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching

:29:39.:29:42.

trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects

:29:43.:29:47.

of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said

:29:48.:29:51.

that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn't

:29:52.:29:56.

done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms

:29:57.:30:05.

into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare

:30:06.:30:09.

reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants

:30:10.:30:13.

talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says

:30:14.:30:22.

that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green

:30:23.:30:28.

crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the

:30:29.:30:31.

Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has

:30:32.:30:34.

pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".

:30:35.:30:40.

Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still

:30:41.:30:45.

doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David

:30:46.:30:48.

Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.

:30:49.:30:54.

Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David

:30:55.:30:59.

Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,

:31:00.:31:04.

that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory

:31:05.:31:07.

modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right.

:31:08.:31:13.

modernisation has been quietly Modernisation is about reaching out

:31:14.:31:17.

to the voters, and the work to do that is now more relevant than ever.

:31:18.:31:21.

We got the biggest swing since 1931, and the thing is we need to do more

:31:22.:31:27.

to reach out to voters in the North. We need to reach out to non-white

:31:28.:31:33.

voters, and show that the concerns of modern Britain and the concerns

:31:34.:31:39.

of ordinary people is something that we share. And what way will racking

:31:40.:31:43.

up electricity bills with green levies get you more votes in the

:31:44.:31:48.

North of England? We have to look at ways to reduce energy bills. The

:31:49.:31:53.

renewable energy directive doesn't do anything to help cut our

:31:54.:31:59.

emissions, but does decrease energy bills by ?45 a year. We should

:32:00.:32:01.

renegotiate that. That is a part of modernisation and doing what

:32:02.:32:09.

ordinarily people want. And old dinosaurs like you are just holding

:32:10.:32:15.

this modernisation process back? I am very appreciative of covering on

:32:16.:32:19.

this programme. The Tory party has been reforming itself for more than

:32:20.:32:23.

150 years. This idea of modern eyes a is just some invention. We are

:32:24.:32:27.

changing all the time. I'm nice and cuddly! So you are happy that the

:32:28.:32:35.

party made gay marriage almost a kind of symbol of its modernisation?

:32:36.:32:41.

Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free vote. David Cameron was recorded as

:32:42.:32:48.

a rebel there because more Tories voted against his position than ever

:32:49.:32:53.

before. It was said that this was a split between the old and

:32:54.:32:56.

before. It was said that this was a it actually was a split between

:32:57.:32:59.

those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a

:33:00.:33:03.

misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I

:33:04.:33:10.

think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my

:33:11.:33:15.

part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 80 and

:33:16.:33:22.

one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight

:33:23.:33:26.

Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He

:33:27.:33:31.

was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found

:33:32.:33:37.

three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with

:33:38.:33:47.

that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist?

:33:48.:33:49.

that. Three in one batch. Does is about watering our appeal and

:33:50.:33:53.

sharing our values are relevant to voters who haven't really thought

:33:54.:33:58.

about voting for us for decades now. Modernisation is about more than

:33:59.:34:01.

windmills and stuff, it is about boosting the life chances of the

:34:02.:34:06.

poorest, it is about putting better schools in poorer areas. It is also

:34:07.:34:12.

saying that modernisation and the Tory party... When has the Tory

:34:13.:34:17.

party been against making poorer people better off? Or against better

:34:18.:34:22.

schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher was a moderniser when she won all

:34:23.:34:26.

those elections? The problem we have at the moment is that UKIP has

:34:27.:34:32.

grown-up. If we could get all of those people who vote UKIP to vote

:34:33.:34:37.

for us, we would get 47% of the vote. We don't need to worry about

:34:38.:34:41.

voters on the left. We need to worry about the voters in the north, those

:34:42.:34:45.

people who haven't voted for us for decades. Having an EU Referendum

:34:46.:34:54.

Bill is going to get people to vote. We have to reach out to

:34:55.:35:00.

voters, but not by some sort of London based in need. You have to

:35:01.:35:05.

broaden your base. I agree with you on that. We have to broaden our

:35:06.:35:09.

appeal, but this back to the future concept is not going to work. We

:35:10.:35:14.

need something that generally appeals to low and middle-income

:35:15.:35:18.

voters, and something that shows we genuinely care about the life

:35:19.:35:23.

chances of the poorest. Do you think that the people who vote UKIP don't

:35:24.:35:31.

support those aspirations? We are not doing enough to cut immigration.

:35:32.:35:33.

support those aspirations? We are We don't have an EU Referendum Bill

:35:34.:35:37.

stop we have to get the centre right to vote for us again. Do that, and

:35:38.:35:44.

we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25 euros, will be returned in Corby

:35:45.:35:48.

because we cannot win an election there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether

:35:49.:36:01.

you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly

:36:02.:36:07.

in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You

:36:08.:36:15.

are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are

:36:16.:36:19.

building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more

:36:20.:36:26.

houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is

:36:27.:36:32.

rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more

:36:33.:36:36.

people from state education into the top. You are going the other way at

:36:37.:36:42.

the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say

:36:43.:36:51.

that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a

:36:52.:36:56.

comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low

:36:57.:37:06.

income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:07.:37:10.

Coming up in just under 20 minutes, I

:37:11.:37:17.

Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Peter

:37:18.:38:04.

Robinson's critics might speculate about his future as leader and who

:38:05.:38:08.

will succeed him. We'll hear from the the DUP

:38:09.:38:11.

will succeed him. We'll hear from Minister on his plans to carry on

:38:12.:38:13.

doing what he calls his "duty". And they may be minnows in the Assembly

:38:14.:38:17.

with just one MLA, but they've big plans to build on their numbers

:38:18.:38:21.

here. We'll have a special report from the UKIP conference. Joining me

:38:22.:38:24.

to discuss that and more are PR consultant Sheila Davidson and

:38:25.:38:27.

journalist and commentator Steven Mc Caffery. The DUP has been the

:38:28.:38:30.

largest political party here for ten years - a milestone it was keen to

:38:31.:38:33.

celebrate at its weekend conference. The party faithful were told that to

:38:34.:38:37.

build on that success, unionism is at its best when it's open and

:38:38.:38:40.

inviting, not narrow and exclusive. With a senior Catholic priest

:38:41.:38:43.

invited to take part in the conference, our Political

:38:44.:38:45.

Correspondent, Martina Purdy, went along to find out more.

:38:46.:40:24.

I think it is slim in the short term. One catholic told me he was

:40:25.:40:34.

voting for the D U P and was doing it to move into teachers about

:40:35.:40:39.

abortion. One catholic priest who made history by taking part in a

:40:40.:40:43.

diversity debate had its own reservations. Does it present a more

:40:44.:40:47.

confident sense of unionism and the better thing for society if you can

:40:48.:40:52.

avoid any sense of sectarianism, then I think there will be Catholics

:40:53.:41:01.

who will find in the DUP, the policies are social and moral

:41:02.:41:04.

policies on abortion and same-sex marriage who might be inclined to

:41:05.:41:07.

vote for them. Conference delegates were open to the idea. We have held

:41:08.:41:14.

events were catholic people have come along to it. I think the

:41:15.:41:22.

hardline nationalist areas, it's hard to break him, but for the more

:41:23.:41:25.

moderate people are more open to discussion and moving on, then yes,

:41:26.:41:35.

there can be more voters. Sammy Wilson joked that change might be in

:41:36.:41:40.

the air. Look at that. Can't you have it in green, white and gold?

:41:41.:41:47.

There is one thing the DUP that are very serious about.

:41:48.:41:56.

Well Peter Robinson isn't able to join us live on Sunday Politics this

:41:57.:42:01.

morning, but immediately after his speech Mr Robinson did talk to me. I

:42:02.:42:05.

started off by asking him about the forthcoming European Election. As we

:42:06.:42:09.

heard in Martina's report the party still has to decide if it will run a

:42:10.:42:12.

second candidate alongside its current MEP, Diane Dodds. I put it

:42:13.:42:16.

to Mr Robinson that running another DUP candidate is potentially a very

:42:17.:42:18.

risky strategy. There are strong voices in the party, it has to be

:42:19.:42:22.

said, who want to put in a second candidate. But for me it always has

:42:23.:42:25.

to be about whether we can win the two seats for unionism, and will it

:42:26.:42:30.

be a better opportunity to have two Democratic Unionist party

:42:31.:42:32.

candidates, or whether other party should have a

:42:33.:42:34.

candidates, or whether other party rather than have a mother

:42:35.:42:37.

nationalist or Republican getting elected. Over the next few weeks and

:42:38.:42:41.

months we will talk to the members of the party to see what the best

:42:42.:42:46.

strategy will be. Do you accept it is risky? There is the potential

:42:47.:42:50.

with a second candidate to further shred the Unionist vote and perhaps

:42:51.:42:56.

restrict Unionist representation to just one seat and allow the SDLP and

:42:57.:43:00.

Sinn Fein to take the others. That has to be a real risk. That is a

:43:01.:43:06.

risk on one side, but the risk on the other is that the last opinion

:43:07.:43:14.

poll showed that the UUP was down to 10%, and you need 25% to get a

:43:15.:43:21.

European seat. Do we risk leaving it as they are capable of winning a

:43:22.:43:24.

seat, or do we take a decision to run a second? There is a risk

:43:25.:43:28.

whichever way we do it. We have to take whatever is the most likely

:43:29.:43:33.

outcome to get the Unionists to return. You said today unionism was

:43:34.:43:37.

its best when it was not narrow and exclusive. Are there some people in

:43:38.:43:43.

the DUP who, frankly, either don't know what you mean by that might

:43:44.:43:50.

even disagree? I think there are very few who will not know what I

:43:51.:43:54.

mean. I think the issue is that we have come from a very difficult and

:43:55.:43:58.

entrenched position, coming through decades of violence in Northern

:43:59.:44:02.

Ireland. Therefore it is difficult for people to leave behind the

:44:03.:44:07.

baggage of those difficult years and two move forward and be embracing

:44:08.:44:11.

and encouraging, but I think that's the way forward for Northern Ireland

:44:12.:44:15.

-- to move forward. The opinion polls had a third of the community

:44:16.:44:17.

wanting to have a united Ireland. polls had a third of the community

:44:18.:44:20.

Sinn Fein could barely get a majority on its own support base, so

:44:21.:44:26.

people want to remain in the UK which allows us to look at a wider

:44:27.:44:31.

rising. You were -- wider horizon. You were clear earlier in the week

:44:32.:44:35.

that John Larkin was wrong to raise the debate and draw a line under the

:44:36.:44:41.

pre-1998 troubles and their related crimes. Is it not the case though

:44:42.:44:49.

the politicians are allowing victims to be the arbiters of public policy,

:44:50.:44:53.

and what John Larkin was at least doing was allowing space for a

:44:54.:44:58.

serious debate to take place. I think before anybody wants to

:44:59.:45:03.

comment on those matters they should do the kind of thing I did a number

:45:04.:45:07.

of days ago. I went down and spoke to the victims, and here we were,

:45:08.:45:13.

of days ago. I went down and spoke ten, 20, 30, 40 years after some

:45:14.:45:16.

have them had lost their loved ones and the tears were still flowing.

:45:17.:45:21.

They were still hurting. They still felt that people were not giving

:45:22.:45:24.

them the justice or truth that they needed. I believe we do need to have

:45:25.:45:28.

a big Tim Centre approach to the future. -- victims centred. It means

:45:29.:45:34.

that we bring victims along, allow them to be the centre of the

:45:35.:45:38.

progress in Northern Ireland, but to recognise the very real hurt that

:45:39.:45:42.

they have the entitlement they have had to keep open the hope that

:45:43.:45:46.

ultimately justice will be done. How do you think you can realise your

:45:47.:45:50.

vision for a more inclusive society when the relationships at the heart

:45:51.:45:55.

of the executives and government between Sinn Fein and the DUP looks

:45:56.:46:01.

so very toxic at the moment? There is a tendency on the part of the

:46:02.:46:05.

press and the media to accentuate any difficulties we have in the

:46:06.:46:11.

process. We have taken almost 1000 decisions as an executive. There is

:46:12.:46:15.

only a handful of those that have ever caused division in the

:46:16.:46:19.

executive. But that is a handful that you guys always concentrate on,

:46:20.:46:22.

instead of showing the positive things that are done, all the

:46:23.:46:26.

agreements made, all the achievements we have made. The

:46:27.:46:29.

progress that is there. Let's get our priorities right and get some

:46:30.:46:34.

perspective on what we're doing. The executive is a very successful. And

:46:35.:46:40.

I hope that the BBC, amongst others, will be prepared to publish the kind

:46:41.:46:48.

of list that the DUP has published today to let people see what has

:46:49.:46:51.

been achieved in their name and see that not only the DUP, but the

:46:52.:46:54.

executive as a whole is delivering. Some of that might be the case, but

:46:55.:46:59.

with respect, the disagreements between you and Martin McGuinness

:47:00.:47:02.

and others in the executives tend to be about fundamental issues, which

:47:03.:47:06.

is why people are so interested in them and how you intend to resolve

:47:07.:47:14.

them. You can't just wish that away. When we take 1000 decisions and you

:47:15.:47:16.

find difficulty with one two, the first thing you need to have is some

:47:17.:47:23.

focus on the successive -- successes. You never mention them,

:47:24.:47:27.

you move on the areas with problems. Of course there are problems, we

:47:28.:47:30.

come from different backgrounds and we have had decades of division and

:47:31.:47:34.

conflict in Northern Ireland so of course there are difficulties to

:47:35.:47:37.

overcome. But one thing we consistently do is that where there

:47:38.:47:40.

are difficulties we keep working on them until we resolve them. Let's

:47:41.:47:46.

look at the key issues like flags, parades, the past,

:47:47.:47:48.

look at the key issues like flags, Richard Haass who was invited by the

:47:49.:47:53.

media, it was you and Martin McGuinness. And why did we do it?

:47:54.:47:58.

Because where there are real problems we keep that the matter. We

:47:59.:48:05.

have agreed everything in the good relations strategy with the

:48:06.:48:09.

exception of those three issues, and we did not say we could not get them

:48:10.:48:13.

resolve, we said we could bring in outside facilitation to help unravel

:48:14.:48:18.

the areas of difference again, so we continue to work at those matters

:48:19.:48:22.

which are outstanding, which is the way forward in Northern Ireland.

:48:23.:48:24.

Recognise the difficulties, but keep working to resolve them. Just a

:48:25.:48:30.

final thought about next week's flag protest in the centre of Belfast.

:48:31.:48:34.

What is your definitive position on what should happen, and what the

:48:35.:48:38.

pitfalls potentially are for people taking part? I think we are past the

:48:39.:48:45.

stage because the parades commission have indicated they are giving

:48:46.:48:49.

permission. All I would ask the organisers to do, and as people who

:48:50.:48:54.

want to see Northern Ireland succeeding, who don't want to damage

:48:55.:48:57.

the Northern Irish economy, I asked them to carry out the protest, which

:48:58.:49:02.

is a legitimate right, to show that one year on they are still opposed

:49:03.:49:05.

to the flags decision of Belfast City Council, but I ask them have

:49:06.:49:10.

their protest that does the least possible damage to the traders of

:49:11.:49:15.

Belfast. You looks like you were enjoying yourself during the speech.

:49:16.:49:18.

Commentators might say you have had a tough time over the last year or

:49:19.:49:22.

two. Are you back on top of your game? The party has always been

:49:23.:49:28.

supportive. There is a tendency on the part of the media to look at the

:49:29.:49:31.

Democratic Unionist party as if it is just any other political party.

:49:32.:49:36.

It is not. It is a very special creation. It is a family more than a

:49:37.:49:40.

political party. You do not have the backstabbing and so forth in -- like

:49:41.:49:44.

another political support -- parties. We have a lot of support,

:49:45.:49:48.

we have a good relationship. The fact I am endorsed unanimously by

:49:49.:49:56.

the executive shows a degree of support and the collective do --

:49:57.:49:59.

connectivity and unity in the party as a whole. Peter Robinson talking

:50:00.:50:03.

to me yesterday. Let's hear now from my guests public relations

:50:04.:50:05.

consultant Sheila Davidson and journalist Steven McCaffery. Steven

:50:06.:50:08.

and Sheila were both at the DUP Conference. Looking from the studio

:50:09.:50:15.

here, it looked fairly slick affair. Was it like that on the ground? It

:50:16.:50:21.

certainly was a slick affair, very well choreographed and there was a

:50:22.:50:25.

very genuine support in the audience. But I was interested

:50:26.:50:30.

very genuine support in the see Peter Robinson talking for

:50:31.:50:33.

however long it was about all the negativity when you had given him

:50:34.:50:35.

every opportunity to talk about all the positives they did produce

:50:36.:50:40.

there. They brought out the two documents which will be interesting

:50:41.:50:43.

to see if they appear as an insert in the Belfast Telegraph Tom paid

:50:44.:50:47.

for by the party policy people, but they had an opportunity, an

:50:48.:50:53.

opportunity to articulate the positives but he still kept talking

:50:54.:50:56.

about the negatives and going back to the old ways. I would love to

:50:57.:51:00.

have seen the kind of positivity that was in the speech reflected

:51:01.:51:06.

back in the interview that happened, because no one is going to listen to

:51:07.:51:10.

that speech for its entirety, but what they will look at is the media

:51:11.:51:14.

output from it. And there needs to be some coordination between that

:51:15.:51:17.

confidence in the speech and the confidence in terms of how they are

:51:18.:51:18.

putting forward the confidence in terms of how they are

:51:19.:51:23.

says they have achieved. Stephen, you were there, what did you make of

:51:24.:51:27.

the idea that it was the fault of the media for not focusing on the

:51:28.:51:30.

positives because the negative things are small in number? But they

:51:31.:51:33.

are important, and that was the point I made. There may not be as

:51:34.:51:38.

many of them, but flags and parades are what people need to see

:51:39.:51:43.

resolved. Absolutely. It's no accident that the American

:51:44.:51:47.

government in the last 12 months have re-engaged substantially in the

:51:48.:51:51.

peace process, that speaks volumes where things are at. I thought the

:51:52.:51:57.

speech was very impressive. Very professional. When you seek other

:51:58.:52:02.

leaders shuffling bits of paper and staring down at their notes, this

:52:03.:52:06.

was a political leader who addressed his audience, was using the

:52:07.:52:11.

autocue. A very positive speech as well. I felt it was a single issue

:52:12.:52:16.

speech though, all about confidence. It was essentially a pep talk of the

:52:17.:52:21.

party after a difficult year. With the European election, how big a

:52:22.:52:26.

debate is that, for them to run or not run a second candidate? It's

:52:27.:52:29.

been kicking around a long time that they think they have the numbers in

:52:30.:52:33.

the party to put up a second candidate, but it's hard to resist

:52:34.:52:38.

this -- the conclusion that they are dangling the possibility of a deal.

:52:39.:52:44.

Peter union -- Peter Robinson saying Unionism at its best when it's open

:52:45.:52:48.

and inviting, not exclusive, that was presumably meant for the hall,

:52:49.:52:52.

but also people outside. Do you think it will strike a chord with

:52:53.:52:56.

the ball populace? I think it will -- broader populace. I think people

:52:57.:53:03.

recognise that the DUP is the biggest Unionist party and they want

:53:04.:53:05.

them to reflect the ones that they biggest Unionist party and they want

:53:06.:53:09.

will engage with and if they vote, they can carry forward. We will talk

:53:10.:53:13.

to you later in the programme, but for now, thank you very much. . The

:53:14.:53:20.

DUP wasn't the only party to hold a conference this weekend. At the

:53:21.:53:23.

Stormont Hotel, local members of the UK Independence Party came together.

:53:24.:53:25.

Membership of the eurosceptic party has been growing here - and UKIP

:53:26.:53:29.

believes it can achieve success in elections to the European

:53:30.:53:31.

Parliament, councils, and Stormont. Chris Page reports.

:53:32.:53:38.

Once an Ulster Unionist, David McNarry now leads a branch of the

:53:39.:53:46.

party surging. There, UKIP has attracted thousands of former

:53:47.:53:49.

Conservative voters. Given that the Tory vote is small though, how will

:53:50.:53:53.

UKIP grow support in Northern Ireland? We are growing because of

:53:54.:53:57.

the effect of the Unionist, and people who would vote Unionist

:53:58.:54:02.

naturally are fed up with the lack of politics and the poverty of

:54:03.:54:06.

politics there is. But it is across the board also. There are people

:54:07.:54:11.

from a nationalist background at the conference today, belonging to the

:54:12.:54:14.

party. They are just as fed up with what they are getting, which is

:54:15.:54:18.

nothing. At the moment, David McNarry's is the only UKIP member of

:54:19.:54:23.

the assembly and the party has just one councillor here, but the members

:54:24.:54:26.

gathering for their conference over their belief that UKIP is only roll

:54:27.:54:32.

across the UK, and they think the party is well placed to benefit in

:54:33.:54:37.

Northern Ireland -- on a roll. This council is running in the European

:54:38.:54:41.

Parliament next year -- councillor is running. He is upbeat about his

:54:42.:54:45.

chances and thinks in 2016 UKIP could win several seats in

:54:46.:54:50.

Stormont. I really think we can do it. In my constituency in Southdown,

:54:51.:54:57.

and in North Down, those constituencies where we can return.

:54:58.:55:03.

This MEP thinks the flagship policy of withdrawing from the European

:55:04.:55:08.

Union is a crucial part of the electoral strategy. Because we are

:55:09.:55:11.

not in the European Union and we don't have to follow the energy

:55:12.:55:14.

policy and the agricultural policy. We don't have to have the fisheries

:55:15.:55:17.

run by the European Union. All of these things mean you can be

:55:18.:55:22.

different, genuinely different. Whether that chimes with the voters

:55:23.:55:25.

here will become clear when the party is tested at the polls in the

:55:26.:55:27.

spring. Sheila and Steven are still with me.

:55:28.:55:36.

A much more modest affair than the DUP conference, but do you think

:55:37.:55:40.

UKIP has a future in Northern Irish politics? If you look at the other

:55:41.:55:42.

parties who have politics? If you look at the other

:55:43.:55:46.

Sea and tried to plant a flag, mostly the Conservatives with a huge

:55:47.:55:50.

resources, basically weren't able to, so for that reason I think it

:55:51.:55:54.

will be difficult. I don't think the European issue has the same

:55:55.:55:57.

traction. We have a different relationship with Europe than

:55:58.:56:03.

perhaps the farming and wider community might have in England,

:56:04.:56:05.

Scotland and Wales. I think they will struggle but they do have a

:56:06.:56:09.

seasoned campaigner at the four with David McNarry, who is obviously a

:56:10.:56:14.

strong -- strongly supported politician. Where could you could

:56:15.:56:20.

potentially pick up any votes? I'm not sure that they are -- where

:56:21.:56:26.

could UKIP? If we are in a situation with the protest was open to them,

:56:27.:56:30.

maybe they might pick up some on that basis. I think a lot of the

:56:31.:56:33.

parties are putting people forward. The SDLP, and Jim Nicholson as the

:56:34.:56:41.

old warhorse for the UUP, I think the political parties are taking the

:56:42.:56:46.

European elections very seriously in terms of positioning themselves for

:56:47.:56:49.

the council elections, and then the elections for Stormont later. I

:56:50.:56:54.

think the idea that they will just pick up votes is not necessarily

:56:55.:56:57.

going to work out for them. Unless they bring in Nigel Farage and have

:56:58.:57:03.

the big national personality vote that might come along with that. But

:57:04.:57:06.

I don't think it's going to be enough to make a difference. If the

:57:07.:57:10.

DUP are questioning if they can pick up two seats, I doubt that UKIP will

:57:11.:57:16.

make any big inroads. It is certainly building up to being a

:57:17.:57:19.

fascinating election battle as far as the European elections are

:57:20.:57:21.

concerned. Let's pause now for a look at the week in 60 seconds with

:57:22.:57:24.

Martina Purdy. The Attorney General John Larkin

:57:25.:57:34.

provoked a week of political debate with this proposal. The time has

:57:35.:57:41.

come to think about drawing a line, set at Good Friday, 1998, with

:57:42.:57:47.

respect to prosecutions. As somebody who represents the law and the rule

:57:48.:57:51.

of law, I think to suggest that kind of amnesty process has actually

:57:52.:57:55.

undermined his credibility. And once again, the MLAs are told to mind

:57:56.:58:02.

their language. I cannot allow members to make those contributions

:58:03.:58:05.

and be so offensive that it is unbelievable. Alan Reid, who acted

:58:06.:58:11.

as a conduit between Republicans and the government in the peace process,

:58:12.:58:16.

has passed away. Reports say policing the past will cost ?190

:58:17.:58:18.

million over the next five years. policing the past will cost ?190

:58:19.:58:29.

And a laugh raised in the assembly. Physical powers, fiscal powers,

:58:30.:58:30.

sorry. Let's have a final chat with Sheila

:58:31.:58:41.

Davidson and Steven Mc Caffery. Stephen, we have the death announced

:58:42.:58:46.

on Friday father Alex Reid who made a huge contribution to the peace

:58:47.:58:52.

process. Absolutely, and when the pain of victims has been at the

:58:53.:58:55.

front of political life here, his passing was a reminder of what we

:58:56.:58:58.

have achieved in the past and what we can achieve in the future.

:58:59.:59:06.

Individuals like Father read skate the troubles, and perhaps with the

:59:07.:59:10.

right commitment we can escape the shadows of the trouble -- father

:59:11.:59:14.

read escaped the troubles. Lamented by many people, including the First

:59:15.:59:22.

Minister. Absolutely. We can never get away from the image of him

:59:23.:59:25.

kneeling beside the soldiers, giving them the last rites of the kiss of

:59:26.:59:31.

life, doing what he could, and if ever there was a personification of

:59:32.:59:36.

how the church or any of the churches can do something positive

:59:37.:59:38.

in terms of bringing people together, then I think it was with

:59:39.:59:45.

him. Just a final sentence on Richard Haass. Notable that he was

:59:46.:59:52.

not mentioned at all in the speed from Peter Robinson, but the issues

:59:53.:59:56.

are there, so that is where the agenda goes. Sheila, positive? I

:59:57.:00:03.

think we are being managed about the expectations that will come out of

:00:04.:00:09.

Haas, and there needs to be that caution. That's it

:00:10.:00:11.

those people who want to cycle. We will be returning to this one. Thank

:00:12.:00:22.

A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this

:00:23.:00:29.

week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of

:00:30.:00:31.

taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other

:00:32.:00:34.

of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live

:00:35.:00:38.

tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the

:00:39.:00:47.

dispatch box. Let's have a look. We have had some interesting

:00:48.:00:52.

interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break

:00:53.:00:55.

records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty,

:00:56.:00:58.

the former Labour has just come in from Tony McNulty,

:00:59.:01:02.

minister, saying that the public are desperate for a PM in waiting who

:01:03.:01:07.

speaks for them, not a Leader of the Opposition in dodging in partisan

:01:08.:01:12.

Westminster Village knock about. So I would stay up with the tweets if

:01:13.:01:16.

you want to get on the right side of this one! We are working on how the

:01:17.:01:21.

Prime Minister managed to get that wheat in the first place. What did

:01:22.:01:25.

you think when you saw it being read out? I was certainly watching the

:01:26.:01:32.

Daily Politics. I almost fell off my chair! It was quite astonishing. He

:01:33.:01:36.

didn't answer the question - he didn't do that the whole time. But I

:01:37.:01:41.

stand by what the tweets said. I have tweeted for a long time on

:01:42.:01:46.

PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed Miliband to the hilt, but no one

:01:47.:01:52.

announces that in Parliament! Because the

:01:53.:01:54.

announces that in Parliament! on what you said, it unleashed some

:01:55.:01:59.

attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very

:02:00.:02:03.

junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took

:02:04.:02:07.

issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't

:02:08.:02:15.

available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly

:02:16.:02:19.

forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a

:02:20.:02:24.

trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on

:02:25.:02:30.

its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how

:02:31.:02:38.

post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone

:02:39.:02:42.

talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am

:02:43.:02:47.

horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become

:02:48.:02:51.

about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things.

:02:52.:02:59.

Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf

:03:00.:03:02.

of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They

:03:03.:03:07.

then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that

:03:08.:03:12.

Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this

:03:13.:03:22.

great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures

:03:23.:03:26.

of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister.

:03:27.:03:30.

People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the

:03:31.:03:35.

Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that.

:03:36.:03:38.

Prime Minister, or the Leader of the just talking about the monster you

:03:39.:03:44.

have unleashed! I hope it dies a miserable death. I think Tony is a

:03:45.:03:49.

good analysis -- a good analyst of PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the

:03:50.:03:59.

Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, white you? I was a Co-op party

:04:00.:04:07.

member. There are two issues here about the Co-op and the Labour

:04:08.:04:11.

Party. All the new music suggests that the Co-op will now have to

:04:12.:04:16.

start pulling back from lending or donating to the Labour Party, which,

:04:17.:04:21.

at a time when Mr Miliband is going through changes that are going to

:04:22.:04:24.

cut of the union funds, it seems quite dangerous. There are three

:04:25.:04:30.

things going on. There's the relationship that the

:04:31.:04:31.

things going on. There's the politically with the Co-op party,

:04:32.:04:36.

there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is

:04:37.:04:42.

this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody

:04:43.:04:47.

else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot

:04:48.:04:53.

of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around

:04:54.:04:58.

funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op

:04:59.:05:05.

issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it

:05:06.:05:11.

gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his

:05:12.:05:17.

private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative

:05:18.:05:19.

Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of

:05:20.:05:26.

speculation in the papers today. At the core, the relationship between

:05:27.:05:30.

the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate

:05:31.:05:35.

one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even

:05:36.:05:40.

bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to

:05:41.:05:48.

exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it

:05:49.:05:57.

is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going

:05:58.:06:04.

to a hedge fund, I think I read. Yes, there is a move from the

:06:05.:06:09.

mutualism of the Co-op. But don't confuse the Co-op bank with the

:06:10.:06:17.

Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft

:06:18.:06:23.

loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4

:06:24.:06:37.

million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the

:06:38.:06:41.

party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this

:06:42.:06:46.

very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft

:06:47.:06:52.

loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And

:06:53.:06:57.

these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link

:06:58.:07:01.

between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there

:07:02.:07:05.

could be real financial difficulties here. The government

:07:06.:07:09.

careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic

:07:10.:07:13.

blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to

:07:14.:07:17.

blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the

:07:18.:07:27.

problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in

:07:28.:07:31.

Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would

:07:32.:07:35.

make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a

:07:36.:07:39.

big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he

:07:40.:07:44.

wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of

:07:45.:07:48.

the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover.

:07:49.:07:51.

This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its

:07:52.:07:56.

balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the

:07:57.:07:58.

Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to were in favour of going to get the

:07:59.:08:02.

outdo Labour in being more pro-Co-op. There was nobody in

:08:03.:08:10.

Westminster saying, hold on, this doesn't work. It is like the

:08:11.:08:15.

financial bubble all over again. Everyone was in favour of that at

:08:16.:08:20.

the time. I think there is no evidence so far that the storm is

:08:21.:08:24.

cutting through to the average voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I

:08:25.:08:29.

would let it die a natural death. I would not write to an editorial

:08:30.:08:33.

column for a national newspaper on a Sunday. That keeps the issue alive,

:08:34.:08:39.

and it makes him look oversensitive and much better at dishing it out

:08:40.:08:47.

than taking it. I agree about that. The Labour press team tweeted this

:08:48.:08:50.

week saying that it was a new low for the times. And this was

:08:51.:09:00.

re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't a great press attitude. It is very

:09:01.:09:06.

Moni. Bill Clinton went out there and fought and made the case. So did

:09:07.:09:11.

Tony Blair. If you just say, they are being horrible to us, it looks

:09:12.:09:18.

pathetic. And it will cut through on Osborne and the financial

:09:19.:09:23.

dimensional is, not political. I shall tweet that later! While we

:09:24.:09:32.

have been talking, Mr Miliband has been on Desert Island Discs. He

:09:33.:09:38.

might still be on it. Let's have a listen to what he had to say.

:09:39.:09:49.

# Take on me, take me on. # And threw it all, she offers me

:09:50.:09:58.

protection. # A lot of love and affection.

:09:59.:10:10.

# Whether I'm right or wrong #. # Je Ne Regrette Rien. #.

:10:11.:10:25.

Obviously, that was the music that Ed Miliband chose. Who thought --

:10:26.:10:31.

you would have thought he would choose Norman Lamont's theme tune!

:10:32.:10:41.

He chose Jerusalem... He has no classical background at all. He had

:10:42.:10:52.

no Beethoven, no Elgar. David Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie,

:10:53.:11:00.

the fastest Notman in the West. -- fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose

:11:01.:11:11.

the theme tune to a movie. Tony Blair's list was chosen by young

:11:12.:11:14.

staffers in his office. It absolutely was. Tony Blair's list

:11:15.:11:24.

was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband this was clearly chosen by himself,

:11:25.:11:28.

because who would allow politician to go out there and say that they

:11:29.:11:38.

like Aha. I am the same age as Ed Miliband, and of course he likes

:11:39.:11:42.

Aha. That was the tumour was played in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is

:11:43.:11:54.

Angels by Robbie Williams. I was 14-year-old girl when that came out.

:11:55.:12:02.

I thought Angels was the staple of hen nights and chucking out time in

:12:03.:12:09.

pubs. The really good thing about his list is that the Smiths to not

:12:10.:12:13.

appear. The Smiths were all over David Cameron's list. The absolutely

:12:14.:12:18.

miserable music of Morris he was not there. What was his luxury?

:12:19.:12:26.

miserable music of Morris he was not Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for

:12:27.:12:29.

political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I

:12:30.:12:39.

would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on

:12:40.:12:44.

Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music.

:12:45.:12:47.

It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most

:12:48.:12:53.

embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing.

:12:54.:12:58.

I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from

:12:59.:13:11.

the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily

:13:12.:13:14.

Politics will be on BBC That's all for today. The Daily

:13:15.:13:17.

lunchtime every day next week, and we'll be back here on BBC One at

:13:18.:13:20.

11am next week. My luxury, by the way, was a wind-up radio! Remember,

:13:21.:13:23.

if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:24.:13:31.

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