25/06/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas

in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not

every building that fails will be evacuated.

The government promises Britain will be a strong global

trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,

we'll ask the international trade minister how.

As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status

with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader

We're approaching deadline day, not for one deal, but two.

of terror attacks - what can be done to restore

I'll be speaking to three of the parties hoping to get

And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political

pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,

Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.

They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.

First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks

across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,

following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people

According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks

has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.

The government plans to examine up to

600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.

The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth

as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden

and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services

Camden has already evacuated residents from

650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such

as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before

When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity

and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national

system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as

muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is

striking how every single building they test seems to fail these

regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the

regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is

most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been

told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were

told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets

outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation

that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in

instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about

social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about

the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.

People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building

regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable

material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,

America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of

the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and

this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for

a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are

several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting

this stuff into housing associations, where the controls

have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is

build more homes and every government announces they are going

to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of

these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a

crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,

frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second

look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had

kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in

fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national

and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about

residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm

hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,

there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the

politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which

is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the

initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to

make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the

result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils

who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national

failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.

Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been

slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge

potential for this to snowball especially if we have other

buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in

the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word

austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his

targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't

take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.

Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver

a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global

trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,

David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get

a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure

from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just

the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,

French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,

you name it. The balance of trade basically

is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest

in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,

on all sides on trade. And I've been joined

by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are

five main national business organisations in Britain and all of

them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the

EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a

difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is

not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with

ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to

the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You

can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to

be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they

will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade

ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is

very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.

We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,

you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the

rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the

same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you

have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at

the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like

the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The

Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the

stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to

the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the

customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a

customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the

first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from

outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm

told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a

novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.

We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from

no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To

do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the

Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single

market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a

transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get

on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective

we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying

across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard

interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want

to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to

do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able

to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this

transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it

is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by

the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition

them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with

America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at

the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working

through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current

arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week

was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk

about the current trading relationship, how do we make things

better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs

work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start

thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,

can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We

can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during

the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what

we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue

between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU

will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.

Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with

trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there

is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and

as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,

what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed

country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no

tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we

give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the

EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,

despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but

the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place

with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all

the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we

are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,

since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I

have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also

called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do

you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to

harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that

people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.

What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make

an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will

the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to

work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the

immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK

economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of

reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the

priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs

of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say

meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more

important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to

the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital

error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer

workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,

and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a

general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or

keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a

businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of

business and the success of our economy that we can afford the

social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work

through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through

Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target

of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital

changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.

Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted

to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this

morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out

the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the

principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy

or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime

Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's

speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will

be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers

and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and

there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out

of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to

say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are

two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you

what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's

aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank

you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics

in the general election, increasing Labour's share

of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use

the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy

has been finding out. Enjoying superstar

status at Glastonbury. Since when did being

a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually

about everyday life. It's about all of us

and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want

for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,

playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer

of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election

glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting

in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader

now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead

in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader

for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world

is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann

MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,

is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling

in the Labour Party, and there are people on both

sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing

better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his

position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential

Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress

which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says

now the party is more In the general election,

the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot

forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign

pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull

together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,

staying up for the summer #. Before the election,

a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and

anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked

into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine

Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,

attack the party staff, change the party rules,

will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more

interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that

unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,

is led from the top. The way in which internal

hostilities would recommend The way in which internal

hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return

to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts

to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors

are going to fight If there are attempts to cross

a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,

again that would cause And if there are attempts to change

the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan

advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,

but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball

is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate

at conference, though, on what some are calling

the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower

the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have

been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate

to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference

is finely balanced on that. Because the elections

for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge

between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those

around the 9th of July And then it all depends

on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like

the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite

and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn

supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another

general election within six months and are remaining

in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting

new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists

in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing

new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get

involved in the election. Safe to say, they're

feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly

opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words

and have apologised. Look, in the general election

campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates

in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they

stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates

who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats

for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way

we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last

till the next election because we all want to

win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,

staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,

but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor

to Labour winning power? Before the general election

was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party

was played out in the election of the general secretary

of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,

who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,

faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour

moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,

and this week he was sacked from his Unite position

as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been

the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by

that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed

for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about

nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it

showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's

a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for

misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's

because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the

evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the

union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in

relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and

no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own

independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond

parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused

of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."

What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision

reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the

involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in

terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of

quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So

actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe

I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show

trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the

proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the

different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our

members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They

wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a

different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes

but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters

that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a

legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make

sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you

think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the

certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the

result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in

the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification

Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High

Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I

think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this

certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High

Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it

say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be

sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a

robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for

it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the

election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and

for most employees if they have had that length of service, some

consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been

re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.

Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a

key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've

lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general

election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about

a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the

party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an

influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that

starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the

electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than

being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what

you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the

Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The

reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the

disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in

Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically

linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a

much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a

member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed

from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?

That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?

I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear

from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have

felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's

important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure

they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being

with us. I've been joined now from Leeds

by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he

use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why

would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,

if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow

Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are

vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the

man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for

the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also

wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable

decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour

member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and

that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There

will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,

when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned

against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party

reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is

a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we

will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be

clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was

previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction

in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you

say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.

He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not

going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have

got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a

piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has

changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.

The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the

many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election

campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the

new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the

changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say

this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools

and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the

leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not

going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want

that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last

couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER

They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to

listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics

has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard

Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the

problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair

years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across

the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve

them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the

last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a

problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about

that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker

for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of

these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people

and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move

to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will

see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.

Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a

long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants

to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to

express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election

it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on

the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or

the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That

is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look

carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate

will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the

Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is

suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change

it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have

different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in

action and what happened in the general election showed the idea

that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than

doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election

in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of

votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.

Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I

have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people

especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.

Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John

McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of

the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a

letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?

That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to

have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within

the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on

membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I

will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any

particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will

see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another

in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit

which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which

working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was

asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of

the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which

exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs

union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is

something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or

against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question

of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our

economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.

The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame

for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the

same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of

Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what

happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and

I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though

something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we

can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,

that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the

government have sat on the recommendations, like the

recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those

documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties

should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a

national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained

the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should

do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,

but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public

inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks

for joining us. It's just gone 1140,

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland. As the clock ticks

towards Thursday's deadline to get the Stormont institutions

up and running again, Sinn Fein and the SDLP say the DUP's

negotiations with the Conservative Party are distracting

from the process here. There were more talks

at Stormont yesterday - so can the parties make a final push

and do a deal this week? We'll hear the thoughts of the SDLP,

the Ulster Unionist Party And joining me to try and work out

if we're on course for one deal, two deals or no deals at all,

are Felicity Huston So far this year, we've had two

elections, seemingly endless rounds of talks and potential deals

on either side of the Irish Sea. But what can we expect to happen

at Westminster and Stormont? I'm joined by Nichola Mallon

from the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist Party's Steven Aiken

and Kellie Armstrong from Alliance. And perhaps they can share that

knowledge with all of us. Thank you for joining us.

So what hope have we of a deal at Stormont by this week's deadline?

I think if you are listening and taking a sincere message coming from

the political parties, then people are willing and ready to do a deal.

Ultimately, whether a deal or delete my son and up comes down to the DUP

and Sinn Fein. There are no surprises. We are in the final

countdown and people are expecting the parties to Act responsible with

their mandates. You except that it does that turn to Sinn Fein and the

DUP? Of course. The SDLP has been willing and engaged and we would try

to provide solutions and ideas to a number of the issues that are

outstanding. Ultimately it comes down to whether the DUP and Sinn

Fein can reach a deal and deliver Government for the people of

Northern Ireland. Aren't your parties in the ringside

seats, well-positioned to spectate on the action between the players

who really matter? It is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein.

The good news is, they are still talking. They were talking yesterday

and we haven't heard any talks of issues of crisis or anything. They

have been talking for months. I know that. The only people who can solve

those are the DUP and Sinn Fein. We're been working on the sidelines

trying to input into the process to try and get it going. We're been

talking very closely with the two governments. It comes down to or it

is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein. The fact is, they have been talking

on Friday and yesterday. Hopefully we are going to get something, but

it's getting very tight and time is getting pressed. Particularly if

they want to have an all inclusive Government going forward. They are

talking and have been doing so very long time. Do you actually believe

that these two parties actually want to sign up to some kind of deal

sooner rather than later? They say they do, do they actually mean that?

It does come across as being extremely frustrating. It's

frustrating for us. These are the biggest parties with the biggest

mandates. They are the people who will bring us forward into

Government. At this moment in time, I read getting a very clear feeling

from them that they want back into Government? It appears so, but that

is all it is. On Friday we were expecting to do a lot more

clarification on those stocks, and that was delayed. Perhaps on Monday

we might have something more. At this stage, it is down to them. What

I have to say is, if they are committed to a multiparty

Government, they would have to be including these parties. Book-mac I

spoke to a senior figure in the DUP who said that Stormont doesn't

matter so much now. We are basically pulling the strings at Westminster,

unless Sinn Fein agree to our view of things, we will not go back into

Government. Why would we let them back in again when we are in a

strong position? I would say to anybody in the DUP, there is no

point in going to Westminster and come back with nothing. They will

have nothing to shout but there isn't a Stormont Assembly. Their

wins, what they have negotiated for the have nothing to come back to.

Maybe in the short-term. Sinn Fein at this particular individual is

said to me I very much on the back foot and nowhere to turn. A couple

of months ago, Sinn Fein didn't really want back into Stormont,

according to this individual, and the DUP debt. A week is a very

short-term and politics. If he had said a week ago was a DUP and a

Conservative Party deal on the cards? You could have said yes. This

is a deal between the DUP and Theresa May, not the rest of the

Conservative Party. They should have done the deal by now. There are

obviously issues that need to be sorted out. We need to get the point

where we have a delivery mechanism. I would be delighted if the DUP came

back with ?2 billion ?1.5 for infrastructure or health, but unless

you have an Executive and an Assembly up and running to deliver

it, it's pointless. And it will be delivered by director or ministers.

For openness and transparency... Is it the toxic impact? Your party and

Sinn Fein said it is knocking this process of the reels. We would have

seen the colour and detail of it but for now. There are constant

briefings and difference in briefing from the DUP and Conservatives

around this. How can you move forward when you can't see the

detail of that? Looks like you can sign up to a Stormont deal until you

have seen the Westminster deal, is that they? I think anyone who would

countenance doing that is quite foolish. They would be doing that?

We have been very clear that we need to see the diesel around it. We

couldn't possibly sign up to something and mostly obscenely

detail. -- unless we had seen the detail. Seven months ago we wrote

all with the wonderful Billy shisha between the DUP and Sinn Fein in

Government, then we lurched into crisis. The hear all this talk about

respect and integrity. Now we are in a situation where parties are

briefing, but the key issue is that is not about your own interests as a

political party, is about what is in the interest here. That is what is

failing. It is the poster that? Its people when they go to hospital,

children died the Act to get it in schools and they are the most

important people in this. -- children trying to be educated in

schools. At the end of the day

you have no role regarding the Westminster talks -

and the deal at Stormont, if there is one, will be

between the DUP and Sinn Fein... Aren't you really just sitting

waiting for a deal at Stormont and then the DUP and Sinn Fein

to sign off on the return Between them, the DUP

and Sinn Fein have well over half of Assembly seats -

55 out of 90. Between them they have 56%

of the Assembly vote. In Westminster those two parties

have 17 of 18 seats - Root those of us have been talking

to different parties, bringing different papers, trying to get them

over the line. Trying to help them? To help the people of Northern

Ireland. Without it working Northern Irish Government we don't have

anyone to speak to us and the Dems are Brexit, we don't have anybody

fighting for our committee when it comes to hospital waiting lists. Our

priority as I party is for Northern Ireland. Is there a blueprint at the

moment? Is something you're working towards?

We have been working towards that. The DUP and Sinn Fein are bumping

heads together. Either compromising on issues like a Bill Rights,

legacy, Arlene Foster going back into the Executive office as First

Minister or not as Sinn Fein would have it, publicly at least? At this

moment in time, all I can say is that those two parties have close

themselves away behind doors. Do you believe they are compromising and

getting into dotting the Ayes and crossing that he's? I would be

absolutely disgusted as a politician if they are not, because if we are

not committed to Northern Ireland, why did they stand and get those

agreements? We expect to hear if they are committed to a multiparty

Government then they will be opening up about that. That will require

compromise. That will require both parties who have read lines moving

away from those and then then have to sell that to their voters. They

will have to come some things. Our understanding is that they are in

talks. Both sides are moving now. How much they will move, is it going

to be good work, I don't mean any body knows it. I think there is a

willingness to some degree to make it work and we as the parties on the

peripheral are there to help them get that point, but time is very

short. We are in a situation where we are going to have to start making

decisions. On Monday, we are having a Round Table meeting, then was

having a meeting with the Speaker to start getting things organised

moving forward. There is a timetable to achieve Government by 4pm. That

is the deadline? We have now heard from Sinn Fein that the deadline is

to say, because when saying Thursday, the secretary of state and

the DUP are going to vote on the Queen's speech. Is more important to

get things done in the time that they need to be done. On Thursday,

you need to be electing a speaker, a Deputy Speaker, doing the whole

process, first and Deputy First Minister. Wednesday is going to be

very difficult to do things, because it is the Queen's speech. We're

looking at is it. Worry careers this deadline as we have with every other

and we talked next week, next month. We hear that this could be resolved

in 24 hours. I had a pound for every time it politician told me that. I

now get bigger terrible that we don't have a representative from the

and Sinn Fein. To be fair, we wanted to speak to the three of you today

rather than to them. I can tell you that at the SDLP, we're been trying

to get resolution. We're been trying to resolve difficulties around equal

marriage. We have said the need to be a new way of doing business

friendly Executive. We have asked for more childcare places, free

childcare places... That is not a red line for anybody. Those are

important issues for people and they are important for the SDLP. The

important for us. If we want an inclusive Executive, then we need to

have an Executive that resolves bigger political issues, but also

deals with key issues affecting everyday lives.

To the big issues are the Irish language Act and whether or not

Arlene Foster can come back as First Minister. Do you get any sense that

there could be copper mines issues? Whenever I speak to the DUP order

Sinn Fein, they are adamant there will be no resigning from this data

positions. -- could be compromises. You know very well that they

disappear like snow in a ditch. There were very clear strong

utterances about the importance of a Bill of Rights, not returning to be

started school. We're sitting close to the final deadline, are we going

to see those things I will birdie, might as? When you listen to what

they say publicly, there are are moving a bit. We can only speculate,

come Thursday we will see. By the public but isn't it, positive noises

going to be translated into action? As far as opposition versus

Government is concerned, if this deal sticks, you would have a right

to be back in Government within the Ulster Unionist Party, you would

within the SDLP, you might get there, but it wouldn't be as of

right. That is the position at the moment. Would you take up that

Executive position if the cards fell the way you would like them to fall

and we are collecting is bigger and going back to Stormont on Thursday?

We need to see what the likely agreement is going to be. But

feeling? --. Feeling. Being opposition was a disaster. We want

to do what's best for Northern Ireland need to get in a position to

do that. We need to see the agreement, we need to the warrior

being asked to do. We can go into Government of don't solve the issues

of openness and transparency. Your gut feeling must be that you would

like to be in Government if he could be persuaded that that was the right

thing to do. We want to do is best for Northern Ireland in if we can do

that, we will. It makes my queer dissembling. It does. We need to

know what's being in agreement. Everybody wants to be in Government.

I don't think that is what people are saying, but ever the want to be

in Government. Do read the SDLP want to be part of the Executive in the

way it was so dysfunctional before aware there was no respect? It was

multiparty, but only two birdies got all the credit. Absolutely not. If

there is a new way of doing business, then yes. What is your gut

feeling about where the Alliance Party would like to position itself

if devolution gets up and running? We're been clear, there are certain

things that we need to see before we can go back into Government. If

there ares can deliver on those then we will not go back in. You're quite

happy to be on the Opposition benches holding a Sinn Fein and DUP

Coalition to account? Yes. We would prefer that some of the things that

we had asked for, if they had accepted them last time, then we

wouldn't have had a collapsed Assembly.

Well, listening to that, my guests of the day -

Chris, does that conversation fill you with confidence there'll be

I think it's a difficult situation for the three parties at the moment

outside the building, looking in through the windows as the

negotiations are going on between the DUP and the two governments.

These parties have had difficult elections and the range from

disappointing for Alliance to disastrous for the SDLP. A plague on

both your houses clearly isn't working when attacking Sinn Fein and

the DUP. I don't detect any real sense of urgency that there will be

a deal on behalf of the DUP order Sinn Fein this week. You don't think

it is a real deadline on Thursday? So. I Think The Dup Wants To Get

Westminster Sorted Out And Sinn Fein... Those Parties Will Be Wary

Of Any Deal That Comes To Westminster And Will Want To Study

Westminster And Will Want To Study At First.

Felicity, surely there cannot be a deal to restore the Assembly

It's complicated. I think we should be able to settle in Northern

Ireland without having to worry about what's going on. But in the

real world? I suspect not. I think the two main parties will have such

an eye on what's happening in Westminster and who knows whether

the Prime Minister currently will still be the Prime Minister next

week, etc. There is such chaos there that I think it makes it difficult.

My concern is that if the Assembly still isn't organised and sorted out

by the end of the month, I think everybody will just forget about it.

It will be something that clutters up the place, achieves nothing and

is abandoned. You're, broadly speaking,

a Conservative supporter - do you think the Tories

are handling these two processes I think they are not handling very

much in an exemplary manner. If I was doing it, I wouldn't do it like

this. You wouldn't start from here. I think that has been the problem.

Weird all expected and anticipated the deal at Westminster would be

sorted out within a couple of days after the election and for what ever

reason, that hasn't worked. I suspect the Conservatives have come

up against somewhat wily long experience negotiators and haven't

realised. England's problem is Ireland's opportunity and that's

what the DUP are doing. What about these guidelines we have spoken

about this morning. For example the Irish language Act and Arlene Foster

returning. Can the parties, Misal knows without catastrophic loss of

face? I think the likes of the Irish language Act, we couldn't, most on

that. They are made such an issue on it. The DUP have said there will not

be an Irish language Act. Summary will lose out. During the week they

said they had a very positive meeting with the DUP and the DUP

were described as reasonable, the costs that they had predicted of an

Irish language Act. That is one area that Sinn Fein cannot really concede

on at this time. What about Arlene Foster as First Minister, easier to

concede on that? I certainly think so. There is something they would

probably give over on. Let's just pause there

for a moment and after another busy week in politics,

here's Enda McClafferty A slimmed down Queen's speech, but

the DUP said it make sure its influence was felt. I'm delivering

on the Armed Forces across the United Kingdom. The SNP says that

there is a Conservative deal with the DUP, in Scotland should get more

money too. If a Tory DUP deal promised ?1 billion infrastructure,

that has consequential effects for Scotland. A former Conservative

leader says there is no grounds for that argument. This is not on usual

and it doesn't invoke the Barnett. The Shadow another Irish energy

services news to him. The Barnett Formula is advisory. For years and

years, Barnett was in the Treasury and we were told that that is the

basis for funding the provisions of the United Kingdom. It takes a lot

of turn the head of best man. Joanna Lumley will do just that.

Gareth Gordon delighted to be interrupted by his secret crush -

Back to our two commentators, Felicity and Chris.

Chris, the other story making the headlines is,

of course, Brexit - and the Irish Foreign Minister,

Simon Coveney, has made it clear he's arguing for special status

for Northern Ireland after the UK leaves the EU.

Bearish Government is becoming more strident on this and we are

beginning to see what is likely happening behind-the-scenes in terms

of their own discussions. We heard from David Davis that the issue of

the Irish border took up most of the time in terms of the first day of

discussions. That gives an idea of how difficult it's going to be to

resolve. Felicity, the Irish Government

hasn't used language It hasn't gone down

well with unionists, Why is the Minister

toughening up his language? Don't think it has gone down well

with certain European countries, because within the EU, special

status is something that causes pandemonium when they start to look

at the systems of the other countries. Many Eastern European

countries might say why should Northern Ireland get all of this, or

Ireland as a holder of the island, when the estate of us, we are far

more economically underdeveloped. I think we... That is one of the

things. We focus of the time in the British Isles. That friction. We

forget about what is going on in Europe as a result of the followed a

Brexit and the tensions that are turning up. The taking European

agencies away from the UK, they want them to be brought back to mainland

Europe. Other countries are getting a look in on those.

Will it damage him as he tries to help negotiate a deal at Stormont?

He is also involved in helping to note go shake that deal. What's

particularly intriguing about this is that the issue of the special

status for the night is important to the Irish Government because it is

in the strategic interests of the independent Irish state. You have to

remember the south has just come through the bailout period, they

don't want another destabilising factor like this which is going to

be a detrimental effect on the economy. I don't think that the

stridency we are seeing from the Irish Government is necessarily over

concerned over the north, it's more about the size and its priorities.

Gerry Adams has called for nationalists and republicans

to adopt a new approach to, "Unlock unionist opposition

This that persuade you are not? The best of luck to him. I don't think

it will work. He has tried before in the reality is different. Think it's

more to do with the combination as opposed to persuasion. The public

have to find a way to accommodate Unionists.

We will be responding further in the to Andrew in London.

We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.

And with that it's back to you, Andrew.

What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give

Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,

the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House

And who's in pole position to take over from Mrs May if she's

A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond

becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.

What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming

on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for

it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also

be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good

sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way

manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not

saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that

there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but

there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that

ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might

have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election

campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the

feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly

self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by

triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a

world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a

plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he

will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber

Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's

support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as

well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about

this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit

supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But

everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead

them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new

leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something

in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,

pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and

if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might

be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have

David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.

David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.

Let me be absolutely plain about this.

Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.

I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,

I've seen a number of prime ministers in

Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.

She makes good decisions, she's bold.

There's no crisis about this government.

It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.

Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.

What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around

in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership

Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.

Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite

sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on

manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not

being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if

they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace

the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,

what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge

difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is

why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very

self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it

is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they

are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the

operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know

who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was

asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not

getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is

on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with

this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in

a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was

sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen

to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much

the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've

spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they

would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is

happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the

Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief

Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you

don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have

Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals

from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but

the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an

arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the

government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be

slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater

priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority

government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the

hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they

can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are

no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That

is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland

politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is

a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that

is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure

for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will

be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus

on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory

which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and

-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the

moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they

think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of

votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour

think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire

and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will

put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they

have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the

House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor

dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour

Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election

if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who

shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.

If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an

election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a

government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,

how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,

because what we saw from the election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any

expectations in his talents as a campaigner but the fundamentals, if

you talk to labour MPs who have been sceptical about him, haven't changed

in terms of his ability to manage the Parliamentary party. Nothing

that has happened so far in terms of the rhetoric coming out from Labour

on Brexit gives any cause for confidence that there is a strategy

or even a tone that has been set that is coherent. You heard the

Unite union man Gerard Coyne who believes he has been purged from the

organisation and he believed that could happen in the party, as well.

But if you have achieved what Jeremy Corbyn has achieved, and he is now

ahead in the polls, even if they don't matter much will stop he has

better ratings than Theresa May now. Why would you not say, this is a

winning formula and I will rebuild the party in my image? It is a

legitimate thing to do, but Europe is crucial. That is why Labour was

like another election sooner rather than later before any crucial votes

on things like the customs union and freedom of movement because they

held together a much bigger coalition than anybody thought but

they did that on the back of angry Remainers. This could factor again

for them. When we talk about remaking the Labour Party in the

image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question is, is that someone who is sceptical

about Europe, and you will see some Labour MPs rebelling on Europe

because they know that's the thing the members agree with them on, and

not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is a long time in politics, as Harold

Wilson said. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon

tomorrow with the Daily Politics, and I'll be back here on BBC One

next Sunday at 11am with Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. BBC Northern Ireland's biggest

classical music party of the year,