25/06/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


25/06/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:42.

After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas

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in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not

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every building that fails will be evacuated.

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The government promises Britain will be a strong global

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trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,

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we'll ask the international trade minister how.

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As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status

:01:05.:01:09.

with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader

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We're approaching deadline day, not for one deal, but two.

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of terror attacks - what can be done to restore

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I'll be speaking to three of the parties hoping to get

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And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political

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pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,

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Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.

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They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.

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First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks

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across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,

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following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people

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According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks

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has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.

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The government plans to examine up to

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600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.

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The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth

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as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden

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and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services

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Camden has already evacuated residents from

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650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such

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as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before

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When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity

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and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national

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system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as

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muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is

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striking how every single building they test seems to fail these

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regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the

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regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is

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most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been

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told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were

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told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets

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outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation

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that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in

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instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about

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social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about

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the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.

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People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building

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regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable

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material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,

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America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of

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the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and

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this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for

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a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are

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several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting

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this stuff into housing associations, where the controls

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have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is

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build more homes and every government announces they are going

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to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of

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these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a

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crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,

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frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second

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look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had

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kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in

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fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national

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and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about

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residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm

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hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,

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there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the

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politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which

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is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the

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initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to

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make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the

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result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils

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who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national

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failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.

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Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been

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slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge

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potential for this to snowball especially if we have other

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buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in

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the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word

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austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his

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targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't

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take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.

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Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver

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a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global

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trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,

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David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get

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a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure

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from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just

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the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,

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French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,

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you name it. The balance of trade basically

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is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest

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in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,

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on all sides on trade. And I've been joined

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by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are

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five main national business organisations in Britain and all of

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them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the

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EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a

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difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is

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not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with

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ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to

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the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You

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can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to

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be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they

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will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade

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ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is

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very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.

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We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,

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you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the

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rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the

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same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you

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have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at

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the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like

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the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The

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Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the

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stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to

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the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the

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customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a

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customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the

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first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from

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outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm

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told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a

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novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.

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We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from

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no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To

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do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the

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Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single

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market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a

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transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get

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on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective

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we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying

:10:18.:10:20.

across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard

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interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want

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to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to

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do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able

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to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this

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transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it

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is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by

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the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition

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them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with

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America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at

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the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working

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through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current

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arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week

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was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk

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about the current trading relationship, how do we make things

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better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs

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work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start

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thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,

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can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We

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can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during

:11:43.:11:49.

the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what

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we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue

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between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU

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will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.

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Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with

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trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there

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is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and

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as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,

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what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed

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country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no

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tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we

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give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the

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EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,

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despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but

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the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place

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with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all

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the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we

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are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,

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since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I

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have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also

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called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do

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you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to

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harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that

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people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.

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What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make

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an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will

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the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to

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work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the

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immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK

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economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of

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reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the

:14:30.:14:33.

priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs

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of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say

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meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more

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important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to

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the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital

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error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer

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workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,

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and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a

:15:08.:15:12.

general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or

:15:13.:15:15.

keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a

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businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of

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business and the success of our economy that we can afford the

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social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work

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through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through

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Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target

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of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital

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changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.

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Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted

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to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this

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morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out

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the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the

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principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy

:16:11.:16:15.

or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime

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Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's

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speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will

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be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers

:16:31.:16:33.

and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and

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there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out

:16:40.:16:44.

of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to

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say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are

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two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you

:16:56.:17:01.

what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's

:17:02.:17:07.

aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank

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you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics

:17:10.:17:12.

in the general election, increasing Labour's share

:17:13.:17:14.

of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use

:17:15.:17:16.

the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy

:17:17.:17:19.

has been finding out. Enjoying superstar

:17:20.:17:23.

status at Glastonbury. Since when did being

:17:24.:17:27.

a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually

:17:28.:17:31.

about everyday life. It's about all of us

:17:32.:17:37.

and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want

:17:38.:17:40.

for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,

:17:41.:17:43.

playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer

:17:44.:17:52.

of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election

:17:53.:18:02.

glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting

:18:03.:18:05.

in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader

:18:06.:18:12.

now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead

:18:13.:18:21.

in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader

:18:22.:18:23.

for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world

:18:24.:18:29.

is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann

:18:30.:18:39.

MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,

:18:40.:18:42.

is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling

:18:43.:18:45.

in the Labour Party, and there are people on both

:18:46.:18:48.

sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing

:18:49.:18:50.

better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his

:18:51.:18:54.

position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential

:18:55.:18:57.

Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress

:18:58.:19:01.

which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says

:19:02.:19:04.

now the party is more In the general election,

:19:05.:19:06.

the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot

:19:07.:19:26.

forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign

:19:27.:19:28.

pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull

:19:29.:19:31.

together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,

:19:32.:19:35.

staying up for the summer #. Before the election,

:19:36.:19:38.

a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and

:19:39.:19:41.

anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked

:19:42.:19:44.

into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine

:19:45.:19:47.

Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,

:19:48.:19:50.

attack the party staff, change the party rules,

:19:51.:19:52.

will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more

:19:53.:19:54.

interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that

:19:55.:19:57.

unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,

:19:58.:20:01.

is led from the top. The way in which internal

:20:02.:20:05.

hostilities would recommend The way in which internal

:20:06.:20:10.

hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return

:20:11.:20:13.

to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts

:20:14.:20:16.

to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors

:20:17.:20:20.

are going to fight If there are attempts to cross

:20:21.:20:22.

a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,

:20:23.:20:30.

again that would cause And if there are attempts to change

:20:31.:20:32.

the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan

:20:33.:20:42.

advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,

:20:43.:20:45.

but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball

:20:46.:20:48.

is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate

:20:49.:20:51.

at conference, though, on what some are calling

:20:52.:20:54.

the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower

:20:55.:20:56.

the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have

:20:57.:20:59.

been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate

:21:00.:21:06.

to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference

:21:07.:21:09.

is finely balanced on that. Because the elections

:21:10.:21:20.

for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge

:21:21.:21:22.

between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those

:21:23.:21:25.

around the 9th of July And then it all depends

:21:26.:21:28.

on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like

:21:29.:21:35.

the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite

:21:36.:21:38.

and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn

:21:39.:21:45.

supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another

:21:46.:21:57.

general election within six months and are remaining

:21:58.:21:59.

in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting

:22:00.:22:01.

new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists

:22:02.:22:04.

in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing

:22:05.:22:06.

new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get

:22:07.:22:09.

involved in the election. Safe to say, they're

:22:10.:22:11.

feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly

:22:12.:22:13.

opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words

:22:14.:22:18.

and have apologised. Look, in the general election

:22:19.:22:20.

campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates

:22:21.:22:24.

in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they

:22:25.:22:31.

stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates

:22:32.:22:36.

who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats

:22:37.:22:39.

for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way

:22:40.:22:45.

we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last

:22:46.:22:48.

till the next election because we all want to

:22:49.:22:52.

win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,

:22:53.:22:54.

staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,

:22:55.:23:02.

but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor

:23:03.:23:06.

to Labour winning power? Before the general election

:23:07.:23:11.

was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party

:23:12.:23:19.

was played out in the election of the general secretary

:23:20.:23:27.

of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,

:23:28.:23:29.

who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,

:23:30.:23:36.

faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour

:23:37.:23:38.

moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,

:23:39.:23:40.

and this week he was sacked from his Unite position

:23:41.:23:42.

as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been

:23:43.:23:49.

the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by

:23:50.:23:55.

that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed

:23:56.:24:00.

for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about

:24:01.:24:05.

nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it

:24:06.:24:10.

showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's

:24:11.:24:15.

a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for

:24:16.:24:18.

misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's

:24:19.:24:23.

because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the

:24:24.:24:27.

evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the

:24:28.:24:32.

union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in

:24:33.:24:36.

relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and

:24:37.:24:42.

no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own

:24:43.:24:46.

independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond

:24:47.:24:52.

parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused

:24:53.:25:01.

of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."

:25:02.:25:09.

What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision

:25:10.:25:12.

reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the

:25:13.:25:18.

involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in

:25:19.:25:22.

terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of

:25:23.:25:26.

quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So

:25:27.:25:31.

actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe

:25:32.:25:35.

I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show

:25:36.:25:42.

trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the

:25:43.:25:47.

proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the

:25:48.:25:51.

different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our

:25:52.:25:56.

members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They

:25:57.:26:00.

wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a

:26:01.:26:04.

different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes

:26:05.:26:12.

but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters

:26:13.:26:15.

that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a

:26:16.:26:20.

legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make

:26:21.:26:25.

sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you

:26:26.:26:30.

think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the

:26:31.:26:35.

certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the

:26:36.:26:38.

result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in

:26:39.:26:44.

the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification

:26:45.:26:47.

Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High

:26:48.:26:52.

Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I

:26:53.:27:00.

think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this

:27:01.:27:03.

certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High

:27:04.:27:09.

Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it

:27:10.:27:13.

say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be

:27:14.:27:17.

sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a

:27:18.:27:25.

robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for

:27:26.:27:31.

it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the

:27:32.:27:36.

election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and

:27:37.:27:40.

for most employees if they have had that length of service, some

:27:41.:27:44.

consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been

:27:45.:27:50.

re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.

:27:51.:27:55.

Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a

:27:56.:28:01.

key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've

:28:02.:28:07.

lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general

:28:08.:28:10.

election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about

:28:11.:28:14.

a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the

:28:15.:28:19.

party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an

:28:20.:28:24.

influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that

:28:25.:28:29.

starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the

:28:30.:28:33.

electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than

:28:34.:28:36.

being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what

:28:37.:28:41.

you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the

:28:42.:28:46.

Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The

:28:47.:28:51.

reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the

:28:52.:28:56.

disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in

:28:57.:29:01.

Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically

:29:02.:29:03.

linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a

:29:04.:29:08.

much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a

:29:09.:29:11.

member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed

:29:12.:29:16.

from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?

:29:17.:29:22.

That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?

:29:23.:29:27.

I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear

:29:28.:29:31.

from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have

:29:32.:29:38.

felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's

:29:39.:29:42.

important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure

:29:43.:29:45.

they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being

:29:46.:29:50.

with us. I've been joined now from Leeds

:29:51.:29:54.

by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy

:29:55.:30:06.

Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he

:30:07.:30:10.

use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why

:30:11.:30:17.

would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,

:30:18.:30:22.

if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow

:30:23.:30:26.

Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are

:30:27.:30:29.

vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the

:30:30.:30:33.

man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for

:30:34.:30:40.

the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also

:30:41.:30:43.

wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable

:30:44.:30:47.

decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour

:30:48.:30:53.

member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and

:30:54.:30:59.

that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There

:31:00.:31:05.

will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,

:31:06.:31:11.

when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned

:31:12.:31:14.

against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party

:31:15.:31:19.

reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is

:31:20.:31:24.

a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we

:31:25.:31:28.

will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be

:31:29.:31:32.

clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was

:31:33.:31:36.

previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction

:31:37.:31:39.

in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you

:31:40.:31:43.

say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.

:31:44.:31:50.

He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not

:31:51.:31:54.

going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have

:31:55.:32:01.

got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a

:32:02.:32:07.

piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has

:32:08.:32:10.

changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.

:32:11.:32:14.

The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the

:32:15.:32:19.

many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election

:32:20.:32:23.

campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the

:32:24.:32:26.

new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the

:32:27.:32:30.

changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say

:32:31.:32:35.

this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools

:32:36.:32:39.

and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the

:32:40.:32:49.

leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not

:32:50.:32:52.

going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want

:32:53.:32:59.

that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last

:33:00.:33:02.

couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER

:33:03.:33:09.

They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to

:33:10.:33:12.

listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics

:33:13.:33:16.

has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard

:33:17.:33:19.

Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the

:33:20.:33:25.

problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair

:33:26.:33:29.

years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across

:33:30.:33:34.

the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve

:33:35.:33:38.

them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the

:33:39.:33:41.

last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a

:33:42.:33:47.

problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about

:33:48.:33:50.

that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker

:33:51.:33:57.

for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of

:33:58.:34:00.

these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people

:34:01.:34:03.

and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move

:34:04.:34:08.

to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will

:34:09.:34:14.

see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.

:34:15.:34:18.

Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a

:34:19.:34:24.

long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants

:34:25.:34:27.

to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to

:34:28.:34:35.

express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election

:34:36.:34:39.

it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on

:34:40.:34:43.

the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or

:34:44.:34:47.

the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That

:34:48.:34:52.

is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look

:34:53.:34:56.

carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate

:34:57.:35:02.

will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the

:35:03.:35:07.

Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is

:35:08.:35:15.

suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change

:35:16.:35:18.

it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have

:35:19.:35:23.

different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in

:35:24.:35:28.

action and what happened in the general election showed the idea

:35:29.:35:32.

that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than

:35:33.:35:35.

doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election

:35:36.:35:43.

in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of

:35:44.:35:48.

votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.

:35:49.:35:57.

Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I

:35:58.:36:03.

have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people

:36:04.:36:07.

especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.

:36:08.:36:12.

Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John

:36:13.:36:17.

McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of

:36:18.:36:20.

the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a

:36:21.:36:25.

letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?

:36:26.:36:30.

That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to

:36:31.:36:36.

have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within

:36:37.:36:38.

the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on

:36:39.:36:44.

membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I

:36:45.:36:50.

will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any

:36:51.:36:55.

particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will

:36:56.:37:02.

see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another

:37:03.:37:06.

in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit

:37:07.:37:09.

which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which

:37:10.:37:13.

working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was

:37:14.:37:21.

asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of

:37:22.:37:26.

the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which

:37:27.:37:32.

exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs

:37:33.:37:36.

union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is

:37:37.:37:40.

something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or

:37:41.:37:45.

against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question

:37:46.:37:51.

of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our

:37:52.:37:58.

economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.

:37:59.:38:05.

The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame

:38:06.:38:11.

for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the

:38:12.:38:17.

same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of

:38:18.:38:23.

Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what

:38:24.:38:26.

happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and

:38:27.:38:29.

I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though

:38:30.:38:33.

something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we

:38:34.:38:40.

can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,

:38:41.:38:46.

that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the

:38:47.:38:55.

government have sat on the recommendations, like the

:38:56.:38:57.

recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those

:38:58.:39:02.

documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties

:39:03.:39:10.

should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a

:39:11.:39:14.

national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained

:39:15.:39:18.

the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should

:39:19.:39:23.

do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,

:39:24.:39:27.

but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public

:39:28.:39:30.

inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks

:39:31.:39:33.

for joining us. It's just gone 1140,

:39:34.:39:41.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:39:42.:39:51.

in Northern Ireland. As the clock ticks

:39:52.:39:53.

towards Thursday's deadline to get the Stormont institutions

:39:54.:39:55.

up and running again, Sinn Fein and the SDLP say the DUP's

:39:56.:40:03.

negotiations with the Conservative Party are distracting

:40:04.:40:06.

from the process here. There were more talks

:40:07.:40:08.

at Stormont yesterday - so can the parties make a final push

:40:09.:40:10.

and do a deal this week? We'll hear the thoughts of the SDLP,

:40:11.:40:13.

the Ulster Unionist Party And joining me to try and work out

:40:14.:40:16.

if we're on course for one deal, two deals or no deals at all,

:40:17.:40:21.

are Felicity Huston So far this year, we've had two

:40:22.:40:23.

elections, seemingly endless rounds of talks and potential deals

:40:24.:40:31.

on either side of the Irish Sea. But what can we expect to happen

:40:32.:40:34.

at Westminster and Stormont? I'm joined by Nichola Mallon

:40:35.:40:41.

from the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist Party's Steven Aiken

:40:42.:40:44.

and Kellie Armstrong from Alliance. And perhaps they can share that

:40:45.:40:56.

knowledge with all of us. Thank you for joining us.

:40:57.:40:57.

So what hope have we of a deal at Stormont by this week's deadline?

:40:58.:41:02.

I think if you are listening and taking a sincere message coming from

:41:03.:41:10.

the political parties, then people are willing and ready to do a deal.

:41:11.:41:16.

Ultimately, whether a deal or delete my son and up comes down to the DUP

:41:17.:41:21.

and Sinn Fein. There are no surprises. We are in the final

:41:22.:41:25.

countdown and people are expecting the parties to Act responsible with

:41:26.:41:31.

their mandates. You except that it does that turn to Sinn Fein and the

:41:32.:41:38.

DUP? Of course. The SDLP has been willing and engaged and we would try

:41:39.:41:43.

to provide solutions and ideas to a number of the issues that are

:41:44.:41:46.

outstanding. Ultimately it comes down to whether the DUP and Sinn

:41:47.:41:50.

Fein can reach a deal and deliver Government for the people of

:41:51.:41:51.

Northern Ireland. Aren't your parties in the ringside

:41:52.:41:52.

seats, well-positioned to spectate on the action between the players

:41:53.:41:54.

who really matter? It is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein.

:41:55.:42:00.

The good news is, they are still talking. They were talking yesterday

:42:01.:42:04.

and we haven't heard any talks of issues of crisis or anything. They

:42:05.:42:10.

have been talking for months. I know that. The only people who can solve

:42:11.:42:13.

those are the DUP and Sinn Fein. We're been working on the sidelines

:42:14.:42:18.

trying to input into the process to try and get it going. We're been

:42:19.:42:22.

talking very closely with the two governments. It comes down to or it

:42:23.:42:25.

is down to the DUP and Sinn Fein. The fact is, they have been talking

:42:26.:42:29.

on Friday and yesterday. Hopefully we are going to get something, but

:42:30.:42:34.

it's getting very tight and time is getting pressed. Particularly if

:42:35.:42:36.

they want to have an all inclusive Government going forward. They are

:42:37.:42:48.

talking and have been doing so very long time. Do you actually believe

:42:49.:42:51.

that these two parties actually want to sign up to some kind of deal

:42:52.:42:57.

sooner rather than later? They say they do, do they actually mean that?

:42:58.:43:03.

It does come across as being extremely frustrating. It's

:43:04.:43:05.

frustrating for us. These are the biggest parties with the biggest

:43:06.:43:08.

mandates. They are the people who will bring us forward into

:43:09.:43:11.

Government. At this moment in time, I read getting a very clear feeling

:43:12.:43:15.

from them that they want back into Government? It appears so, but that

:43:16.:43:20.

is all it is. On Friday we were expecting to do a lot more

:43:21.:43:23.

clarification on those stocks, and that was delayed. Perhaps on Monday

:43:24.:43:27.

we might have something more. At this stage, it is down to them. What

:43:28.:43:32.

I have to say is, if they are committed to a multiparty

:43:33.:43:34.

Government, they would have to be including these parties. Book-mac I

:43:35.:43:48.

spoke to a senior figure in the DUP who said that Stormont doesn't

:43:49.:43:52.

matter so much now. We are basically pulling the strings at Westminster,

:43:53.:43:56.

unless Sinn Fein agree to our view of things, we will not go back into

:43:57.:43:59.

Government. Why would we let them back in again when we are in a

:44:00.:44:03.

strong position? I would say to anybody in the DUP, there is no

:44:04.:44:07.

point in going to Westminster and come back with nothing. They will

:44:08.:44:10.

have nothing to shout but there isn't a Stormont Assembly. Their

:44:11.:44:15.

wins, what they have negotiated for the have nothing to come back to.

:44:16.:44:21.

Maybe in the short-term. Sinn Fein at this particular individual is

:44:22.:44:26.

said to me I very much on the back foot and nowhere to turn. A couple

:44:27.:44:29.

of months ago, Sinn Fein didn't really want back into Stormont,

:44:30.:44:34.

according to this individual, and the DUP debt. A week is a very

:44:35.:44:41.

short-term and politics. If he had said a week ago was a DUP and a

:44:42.:44:44.

Conservative Party deal on the cards? You could have said yes. This

:44:45.:44:50.

is a deal between the DUP and Theresa May, not the rest of the

:44:51.:44:52.

Conservative Party. They should have done the deal by now. There are

:44:53.:44:56.

obviously issues that need to be sorted out. We need to get the point

:44:57.:45:00.

where we have a delivery mechanism. I would be delighted if the DUP came

:45:01.:45:05.

back with ?2 billion ?1.5 for infrastructure or health, but unless

:45:06.:45:09.

you have an Executive and an Assembly up and running to deliver

:45:10.:45:13.

it, it's pointless. And it will be delivered by director or ministers.

:45:14.:45:28.

For openness and transparency... Is it the toxic impact? Your party and

:45:29.:45:39.

Sinn Fein said it is knocking this process of the reels. We would have

:45:40.:45:45.

seen the colour and detail of it but for now. There are constant

:45:46.:45:48.

briefings and difference in briefing from the DUP and Conservatives

:45:49.:45:52.

around this. How can you move forward when you can't see the

:45:53.:45:55.

detail of that? Looks like you can sign up to a Stormont deal until you

:45:56.:46:00.

have seen the Westminster deal, is that they? I think anyone who would

:46:01.:46:04.

countenance doing that is quite foolish. They would be doing that?

:46:05.:46:07.

We have been very clear that we need to see the diesel around it. We

:46:08.:46:11.

couldn't possibly sign up to something and mostly obscenely

:46:12.:46:18.

detail. -- unless we had seen the detail. Seven months ago we wrote

:46:19.:46:21.

all with the wonderful Billy shisha between the DUP and Sinn Fein in

:46:22.:46:26.

Government, then we lurched into crisis. The hear all this talk about

:46:27.:46:30.

respect and integrity. Now we are in a situation where parties are

:46:31.:46:34.

briefing, but the key issue is that is not about your own interests as a

:46:35.:46:39.

political party, is about what is in the interest here. That is what is

:46:40.:46:43.

failing. It is the poster that? Its people when they go to hospital,

:46:44.:46:48.

children died the Act to get it in schools and they are the most

:46:49.:46:52.

important people in this. -- children trying to be educated in

:46:53.:46:53.

schools. At the end of the day

:46:54.:46:55.

you have no role regarding the Westminster talks -

:46:56.:46:57.

and the deal at Stormont, if there is one, will be

:46:58.:47:00.

between the DUP and Sinn Fein... Aren't you really just sitting

:47:01.:47:02.

waiting for a deal at Stormont and then the DUP and Sinn Fein

:47:03.:47:06.

to sign off on the return Between them, the DUP

:47:07.:47:09.

and Sinn Fein have well over half of Assembly seats -

:47:10.:47:16.

55 out of 90. Between them they have 56%

:47:17.:47:18.

of the Assembly vote. In Westminster those two parties

:47:19.:47:20.

have 17 of 18 seats - Root those of us have been talking

:47:21.:47:26.

to different parties, bringing different papers, trying to get them

:47:27.:47:29.

over the line. Trying to help them? To help the people of Northern

:47:30.:47:31.

Ireland. Without it working Northern Irish Government we don't have

:47:32.:47:33.

anyone to speak to us and the Dems are Brexit, we don't have anybody

:47:34.:47:37.

fighting for our committee when it comes to hospital waiting lists. Our

:47:38.:47:42.

priority as I party is for Northern Ireland. Is there a blueprint at the

:47:43.:47:45.

moment? Is something you're working towards?

:47:46.:48:05.

We have been working towards that. The DUP and Sinn Fein are bumping

:48:06.:48:11.

heads together. Either compromising on issues like a Bill Rights,

:48:12.:48:17.

legacy, Arlene Foster going back into the Executive office as First

:48:18.:48:20.

Minister or not as Sinn Fein would have it, publicly at least? At this

:48:21.:48:25.

moment in time, all I can say is that those two parties have close

:48:26.:48:30.

themselves away behind doors. Do you believe they are compromising and

:48:31.:48:34.

getting into dotting the Ayes and crossing that he's? I would be

:48:35.:48:40.

absolutely disgusted as a politician if they are not, because if we are

:48:41.:48:43.

not committed to Northern Ireland, why did they stand and get those

:48:44.:48:47.

agreements? We expect to hear if they are committed to a multiparty

:48:48.:48:50.

Government then they will be opening up about that. That will require

:48:51.:48:56.

compromise. That will require both parties who have read lines moving

:48:57.:48:59.

away from those and then then have to sell that to their voters. They

:49:00.:49:05.

will have to come some things. Our understanding is that they are in

:49:06.:49:09.

talks. Both sides are moving now. How much they will move, is it going

:49:10.:49:13.

to be good work, I don't mean any body knows it. I think there is a

:49:14.:49:17.

willingness to some degree to make it work and we as the parties on the

:49:18.:49:22.

peripheral are there to help them get that point, but time is very

:49:23.:49:26.

short. We are in a situation where we are going to have to start making

:49:27.:49:30.

decisions. On Monday, we are having a Round Table meeting, then was

:49:31.:49:33.

having a meeting with the Speaker to start getting things organised

:49:34.:49:39.

moving forward. There is a timetable to achieve Government by 4pm. That

:49:40.:49:48.

is the deadline? We have now heard from Sinn Fein that the deadline is

:49:49.:49:51.

to say, because when saying Thursday, the secretary of state and

:49:52.:49:54.

the DUP are going to vote on the Queen's speech. Is more important to

:49:55.:49:58.

get things done in the time that they need to be done. On Thursday,

:49:59.:50:02.

you need to be electing a speaker, a Deputy Speaker, doing the whole

:50:03.:50:07.

process, first and Deputy First Minister. Wednesday is going to be

:50:08.:50:10.

very difficult to do things, because it is the Queen's speech. We're

:50:11.:50:15.

looking at is it. Worry careers this deadline as we have with every other

:50:16.:50:21.

and we talked next week, next month. We hear that this could be resolved

:50:22.:50:26.

in 24 hours. I had a pound for every time it politician told me that. I

:50:27.:50:30.

now get bigger terrible that we don't have a representative from the

:50:31.:50:37.

and Sinn Fein. To be fair, we wanted to speak to the three of you today

:50:38.:50:43.

rather than to them. I can tell you that at the SDLP, we're been trying

:50:44.:50:47.

to get resolution. We're been trying to resolve difficulties around equal

:50:48.:50:53.

marriage. We have said the need to be a new way of doing business

:50:54.:50:57.

friendly Executive. We have asked for more childcare places, free

:50:58.:51:01.

childcare places... That is not a red line for anybody. Those are

:51:02.:51:07.

important issues for people and they are important for the SDLP. The

:51:08.:51:12.

important for us. If we want an inclusive Executive, then we need to

:51:13.:51:16.

have an Executive that resolves bigger political issues, but also

:51:17.:51:18.

deals with key issues affecting everyday lives.

:51:19.:51:30.

To the big issues are the Irish language Act and whether or not

:51:31.:51:36.

Arlene Foster can come back as First Minister. Do you get any sense that

:51:37.:51:39.

there could be copper mines issues? Whenever I speak to the DUP order

:51:40.:51:44.

Sinn Fein, they are adamant there will be no resigning from this data

:51:45.:51:49.

positions. -- could be compromises. You know very well that they

:51:50.:51:56.

disappear like snow in a ditch. There were very clear strong

:51:57.:51:59.

utterances about the importance of a Bill of Rights, not returning to be

:52:00.:52:08.

started school. We're sitting close to the final deadline, are we going

:52:09.:52:11.

to see those things I will birdie, might as? When you listen to what

:52:12.:52:18.

they say publicly, there are are moving a bit. We can only speculate,

:52:19.:52:23.

come Thursday we will see. By the public but isn't it, positive noises

:52:24.:52:27.

going to be translated into action? As far as opposition versus

:52:28.:52:32.

Government is concerned, if this deal sticks, you would have a right

:52:33.:52:36.

to be back in Government within the Ulster Unionist Party, you would

:52:37.:52:41.

within the SDLP, you might get there, but it wouldn't be as of

:52:42.:52:45.

right. That is the position at the moment. Would you take up that

:52:46.:52:49.

Executive position if the cards fell the way you would like them to fall

:52:50.:52:52.

and we are collecting is bigger and going back to Stormont on Thursday?

:52:53.:52:56.

We need to see what the likely agreement is going to be. But

:52:57.:53:05.

feeling? --. Feeling. Being opposition was a disaster. We want

:53:06.:53:10.

to do what's best for Northern Ireland need to get in a position to

:53:11.:53:15.

do that. We need to see the agreement, we need to the warrior

:53:16.:53:18.

being asked to do. We can go into Government of don't solve the issues

:53:19.:53:24.

of openness and transparency. Your gut feeling must be that you would

:53:25.:53:27.

like to be in Government if he could be persuaded that that was the right

:53:28.:53:32.

thing to do. We want to do is best for Northern Ireland in if we can do

:53:33.:53:37.

that, we will. It makes my queer dissembling. It does. We need to

:53:38.:53:46.

know what's being in agreement. Everybody wants to be in Government.

:53:47.:53:50.

I don't think that is what people are saying, but ever the want to be

:53:51.:53:53.

in Government. Do read the SDLP want to be part of the Executive in the

:53:54.:53:58.

way it was so dysfunctional before aware there was no respect? It was

:53:59.:54:03.

multiparty, but only two birdies got all the credit. Absolutely not. If

:54:04.:54:10.

there is a new way of doing business, then yes. What is your gut

:54:11.:54:14.

feeling about where the Alliance Party would like to position itself

:54:15.:54:18.

if devolution gets up and running? We're been clear, there are certain

:54:19.:54:23.

things that we need to see before we can go back into Government. If

:54:24.:54:27.

there ares can deliver on those then we will not go back in. You're quite

:54:28.:54:34.

happy to be on the Opposition benches holding a Sinn Fein and DUP

:54:35.:54:41.

Coalition to account? Yes. We would prefer that some of the things that

:54:42.:54:45.

we had asked for, if they had accepted them last time, then we

:54:46.:54:47.

wouldn't have had a collapsed Assembly.

:54:48.:54:50.

Well, listening to that, my guests of the day -

:54:51.:54:54.

Chris, does that conversation fill you with confidence there'll be

:54:55.:54:57.

I think it's a difficult situation for the three parties at the moment

:54:58.:55:12.

outside the building, looking in through the windows as the

:55:13.:55:15.

negotiations are going on between the DUP and the two governments.

:55:16.:55:19.

These parties have had difficult elections and the range from

:55:20.:55:26.

disappointing for Alliance to disastrous for the SDLP. A plague on

:55:27.:55:30.

both your houses clearly isn't working when attacking Sinn Fein and

:55:31.:55:34.

the DUP. I don't detect any real sense of urgency that there will be

:55:35.:55:38.

a deal on behalf of the DUP order Sinn Fein this week. You don't think

:55:39.:55:43.

it is a real deadline on Thursday? So. I Think The Dup Wants To Get

:55:44.:55:50.

Westminster Sorted Out And Sinn Fein... Those Parties Will Be Wary

:55:51.:55:56.

Of Any Deal That Comes To Westminster And Will Want To Study

:55:57.:55:57.

Westminster And Will Want To Study At First.

:55:58.:56:03.

Felicity, surely there cannot be a deal to restore the Assembly

:56:04.:56:05.

It's complicated. I think we should be able to settle in Northern

:56:06.:56:14.

Ireland without having to worry about what's going on. But in the

:56:15.:56:21.

real world? I suspect not. I think the two main parties will have such

:56:22.:56:24.

an eye on what's happening in Westminster and who knows whether

:56:25.:56:26.

the Prime Minister currently will still be the Prime Minister next

:56:27.:56:30.

week, etc. There is such chaos there that I think it makes it difficult.

:56:31.:56:37.

My concern is that if the Assembly still isn't organised and sorted out

:56:38.:56:40.

by the end of the month, I think everybody will just forget about it.

:56:41.:56:44.

It will be something that clutters up the place, achieves nothing and

:56:45.:56:45.

is abandoned. You're, broadly speaking,

:56:46.:56:47.

a Conservative supporter - do you think the Tories

:56:48.:56:49.

are handling these two processes I think they are not handling very

:56:50.:57:02.

much in an exemplary manner. If I was doing it, I wouldn't do it like

:57:03.:57:05.

this. You wouldn't start from here. I think that has been the problem.

:57:06.:57:10.

Weird all expected and anticipated the deal at Westminster would be

:57:11.:57:13.

sorted out within a couple of days after the election and for what ever

:57:14.:57:17.

reason, that hasn't worked. I suspect the Conservatives have come

:57:18.:57:24.

up against somewhat wily long experience negotiators and haven't

:57:25.:57:32.

realised. England's problem is Ireland's opportunity and that's

:57:33.:57:37.

what the DUP are doing. What about these guidelines we have spoken

:57:38.:57:41.

about this morning. For example the Irish language Act and Arlene Foster

:57:42.:57:46.

returning. Can the parties, Misal knows without catastrophic loss of

:57:47.:57:53.

face? I think the likes of the Irish language Act, we couldn't, most on

:57:54.:57:57.

that. They are made such an issue on it. The DUP have said there will not

:57:58.:58:01.

be an Irish language Act. Summary will lose out. During the week they

:58:02.:58:07.

said they had a very positive meeting with the DUP and the DUP

:58:08.:58:12.

were described as reasonable, the costs that they had predicted of an

:58:13.:58:16.

Irish language Act. That is one area that Sinn Fein cannot really concede

:58:17.:58:24.

on at this time. What about Arlene Foster as First Minister, easier to

:58:25.:58:28.

concede on that? I certainly think so. There is something they would

:58:29.:58:30.

probably give over on. Let's just pause there

:58:31.:58:39.

for a moment and after another busy week in politics,

:58:40.:58:42.

here's Enda McClafferty A slimmed down Queen's speech, but

:58:43.:58:53.

the DUP said it make sure its influence was felt. I'm delivering

:58:54.:58:58.

on the Armed Forces across the United Kingdom. The SNP says that

:58:59.:59:03.

there is a Conservative deal with the DUP, in Scotland should get more

:59:04.:59:11.

money too. If a Tory DUP deal promised ?1 billion infrastructure,

:59:12.:59:14.

that has consequential effects for Scotland. A former Conservative

:59:15.:59:17.

leader says there is no grounds for that argument. This is not on usual

:59:18.:59:22.

and it doesn't invoke the Barnett. The Shadow another Irish energy

:59:23.:59:29.

services news to him. The Barnett Formula is advisory. For years and

:59:30.:59:33.

years, Barnett was in the Treasury and we were told that that is the

:59:34.:59:38.

basis for funding the provisions of the United Kingdom. It takes a lot

:59:39.:59:45.

of turn the head of best man. Joanna Lumley will do just that.

:59:46.:59:47.

Gareth Gordon delighted to be interrupted by his secret crush -

:59:48.:59:51.

Back to our two commentators, Felicity and Chris.

:59:52.:00:00.

Chris, the other story making the headlines is,

:00:01.:00:02.

of course, Brexit - and the Irish Foreign Minister,

:00:03.:00:04.

Simon Coveney, has made it clear he's arguing for special status

:00:05.:00:07.

for Northern Ireland after the UK leaves the EU.

:00:08.:00:14.

Bearish Government is becoming more strident on this and we are

:00:15.:00:18.

beginning to see what is likely happening behind-the-scenes in terms

:00:19.:00:23.

of their own discussions. We heard from David Davis that the issue of

:00:24.:00:26.

the Irish border took up most of the time in terms of the first day of

:00:27.:00:29.

discussions. That gives an idea of how difficult it's going to be to

:00:30.:00:31.

resolve. Felicity, the Irish Government

:00:32.:00:33.

hasn't used language It hasn't gone down

:00:34.:00:35.

well with unionists, Why is the Minister

:00:36.:00:37.

toughening up his language? Don't think it has gone down well

:00:38.:00:46.

with certain European countries, because within the EU, special

:00:47.:00:50.

status is something that causes pandemonium when they start to look

:00:51.:00:52.

at the systems of the other countries. Many Eastern European

:00:53.:00:58.

countries might say why should Northern Ireland get all of this, or

:00:59.:01:01.

Ireland as a holder of the island, when the estate of us, we are far

:01:02.:01:07.

more economically underdeveloped. I think we... That is one of the

:01:08.:01:12.

things. We focus of the time in the British Isles. That friction. We

:01:13.:01:15.

forget about what is going on in Europe as a result of the followed a

:01:16.:01:20.

Brexit and the tensions that are turning up. The taking European

:01:21.:01:26.

agencies away from the UK, they want them to be brought back to mainland

:01:27.:01:32.

Europe. Other countries are getting a look in on those.

:01:33.:01:36.

Will it damage him as he tries to help negotiate a deal at Stormont?

:01:37.:01:40.

He is also involved in helping to note go shake that deal. What's

:01:41.:01:48.

particularly intriguing about this is that the issue of the special

:01:49.:01:52.

status for the night is important to the Irish Government because it is

:01:53.:01:56.

in the strategic interests of the independent Irish state. You have to

:01:57.:01:59.

remember the south has just come through the bailout period, they

:02:00.:02:01.

don't want another destabilising factor like this which is going to

:02:02.:02:06.

be a detrimental effect on the economy. I don't think that the

:02:07.:02:10.

stridency we are seeing from the Irish Government is necessarily over

:02:11.:02:14.

concerned over the north, it's more about the size and its priorities.

:02:15.:02:20.

Gerry Adams has called for nationalists and republicans

:02:21.:02:22.

to adopt a new approach to, "Unlock unionist opposition

:02:23.:02:24.

This that persuade you are not? The best of luck to him. I don't think

:02:25.:02:31.

it will work. He has tried before in the reality is different. Think it's

:02:32.:02:37.

more to do with the combination as opposed to persuasion. The public

:02:38.:02:41.

have to find a way to accommodate Unionists.

:02:42.:02:42.

We will be responding further in the to Andrew in London.

:02:43.:02:45.

We will be responding further in the weeks and months to come.

:02:46.:02:48.

And with that it's back to you, Andrew.

:02:49.:02:53.

What deal will Theresa May strike with the DUP to give

:02:54.:02:55.

Will the Prime Minister get her programme for government,

:02:56.:03:02.

the Queen's Speech, over the first hurdle in a House

:03:03.:03:05.

And who's in pole position to take over from Mrs May if she's

:03:06.:03:09.

A number of stories in the papers this morning about Philip Hammond

:03:10.:03:29.

becoming a caretaker Tory leader with the support of David Davis.

:03:30.:03:34.

What did you make of them? I was dismayed to hear that Tim was coming

:03:35.:03:40.

on the story because I was prepared to rubbish his story. I will go for

:03:41.:03:45.

it. This is great sport, and if I was in Tim's position I would also

:03:46.:03:50.

be cooking up stories, but Tim will say it is based on several very good

:03:51.:03:56.

sources, but my sense from the Tory backbenchers, they are in no way

:03:57.:03:59.

manoeuvring to get someone else installed in number ten, and I'm not

:04:00.:04:04.

saying that Theresa May is secure long-term but I don't sense that

:04:05.:04:07.

there is any immediate threat to her at the moment. I agree partly, but

:04:08.:04:14.

there is a shadow leadership battle. If you look at the fact that

:04:15.:04:19.

ministers have been out on the airwaves, people who I thought might

:04:20.:04:22.

have gone to a retirement home have popped up after the election

:04:23.:04:25.

campaign and are doing media again. People are jockeying, but the

:04:26.:04:30.

feeling of instability is such that they know it looks incredibly

:04:31.:04:34.

self-indulgent focus internally. We have started the Brexit clock by

:04:35.:04:38.

triggering Article 50 Mbits a hard time limit on that. We are in a

:04:39.:04:45.

world where it changes week by week, is it not incredible that there is a

:04:46.:04:51.

plan, to put Phil Hammond in as a caretaker for two years, then he

:04:52.:04:54.

will step down, and then I forget who will take over? Possibly Amber

:04:55.:05:00.

Rudd. The younger generation. This will all be done with David Davis's

:05:01.:05:05.

support, that is rather incredible. I thought it was incredible, as

:05:06.:05:09.

well, but the more calls I put in, there was a lot of chatter about

:05:10.:05:14.

this. What persuaded me that it was interesting, there were Brexit

:05:15.:05:23.

supporting MPs who felt they could stand Philip Hammond in charge. But

:05:24.:05:29.

everyone is taking the view that Theresa May is not going to lead

:05:30.:05:32.

them into the next election, so at what point do they installed the new

:05:33.:05:36.

leader? The sensible time would be in the late summer to get something

:05:37.:05:41.

in place by the party conference. With David Davis and Philip Hammond,

:05:42.:05:46.

pretty well everyone agrees they are the two grown-ups in the Cabinet and

:05:47.:05:48.

if they can come to arrangement with one of them at the top, that might

:05:49.:05:52.

be the way to have a smooth transition. Some of the stories have

:05:53.:05:57.

David Davis to be the caretaker and Phil Hammond to be the number two.

:05:58.:06:02.

David Davis was on the BBC this morning and he reacted to this.

:06:03.:06:06.

Let me be absolutely plain about this.

:06:07.:06:09.

Number one, I happen to think we've got a very good Prime Minister.

:06:10.:06:11.

I know she's coming under a lot of pressure at the moment,

:06:12.:06:14.

I've seen a number of prime ministers in

:06:15.:06:18.

Going right back to Margaret Thatcher.

:06:19.:06:20.

She makes good decisions, she's bold.

:06:21.:06:23.

There's no crisis about this government.

:06:24.:06:25.

It's very very clear that she's a good Prime Minister.

:06:26.:06:28.

Point number two, I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.

:06:29.:06:32.

What is your message to those Tories who are already ruffling around

:06:33.:06:38.

in the rhododendrons muttering about leadership

:06:39.:06:39.

Don't be so self-indulgent is my message to those.

:06:40.:06:46.

Of course, he would say that, to an extent. I thought that was quite

:06:47.:06:53.

sincere. I've observed him long enough to know that he is always on

:06:54.:06:57.

manoeuvres of some sort but if he is on manoeuvres now, they involve not

:06:58.:07:03.

being manoeuvres for the time being. If there was credibility to this, if

:07:04.:07:05.

they were really thinking they would have a caretaker and then replace

:07:06.:07:11.

the caretaker with someone else, and then we may do something different,

:07:12.:07:14.

what with the voters make, at a time of national crisis, of huge

:07:15.:07:19.

difficulty, that the Tory party is just playing musical chairs? That is

:07:20.:07:25.

why you have MPs like Ken Clarke who say that this looks very

:07:26.:07:28.

self-indulgent. If anything we have learned from the last 20 years, it

:07:29.:07:34.

is that if you try to have a cooked up thing where everyone knows they

:07:35.:07:37.

are going to be the front man and you are the real brains of the

:07:38.:07:41.

operation, that is a recipe for huge falling out, and people need to know

:07:42.:07:45.

who they are voting for. You didn't say the bit when David Davis was

:07:46.:07:50.

asked if he would go for the leadership, and he said I'm not

:07:51.:07:54.

getting into that. -- you didn't show the bit. Let's move on. He is

:07:55.:08:00.

on quantum manoeuvres. To the more immediate. Tim, where are we with

:08:01.:08:07.

this attempt with the Conservatives to get a deal with the DUP? It is in

:08:08.:08:12.

a mess, but effectively done. People say the confidence side of it was

:08:13.:08:19.

sorted a few weeks ago, but then the fire happened and they weren't keen

:08:20.:08:22.

to do a big announcement and they are still arguing over, not so much

:08:23.:08:26.

the amount of money, but the mechanisms and how it works. I've

:08:27.:08:31.

spoken to DUP sources who say there is no circumstance in which they

:08:32.:08:35.

would vote down this Queen's Speech and the other thing that is

:08:36.:08:39.

happening, the time is meant to be running out on the next stage of the

:08:40.:08:42.

Stormont arrangements and the threat that is coming from the Tory Chief

:08:43.:08:46.

Whip Gavin Williamson to the DUP and one they take very seriously, if you

:08:47.:08:51.

don't vote for the Queen's Speech on Thursday you could effectively have

:08:52.:08:55.

Jeremy Corbyn taking direct rule of Northern Ireland with his old pals

:08:56.:09:01.

from Sinn Fein. That is the threat the Tories hang over the DUP, but

:09:02.:09:07.

the DUP are tough negotiators and if they haven't agreed to an

:09:08.:09:10.

arrangement by the Queen's Speech and they simply abstain, the

:09:11.:09:14.

government will probably still get it through, but the margin will be

:09:15.:09:20.

slight. It's a strange situation. Whether government has greater

:09:21.:09:23.

priorities than forming a government, than forming a majority

:09:24.:09:27.

government, I think they feel fairly confident that they can get over the

:09:28.:09:31.

hurdle next week. And it might be rather marginal, but as long as they

:09:32.:09:35.

can get through it. Simply wresting back on the assurance that there are

:09:36.:09:40.

no circumstances in which the DUP will bring them crashing down. That

:09:41.:09:48.

is enough for now. The long-term situation for Northern Ireland

:09:49.:09:51.

politics is very interesting. This will come under pressure if there is

:09:52.:09:54.

a vote in which the Sinn Fein votes would have made a difference, that

:09:55.:09:58.

is how they squeezed the SDLP and at the same time there is a pressure

:09:59.:10:03.

for them to come back to the Stormont talks, because there will

:10:04.:10:06.

be money flowing into Northern Ireland and they will be acute focus

:10:07.:10:11.

on the areas to which that is going. Labour will put down the memory

:10:12.:10:14.

which will highlight a number of things in the Labour manifesto and

:10:15.:10:22.

-- will put down the manifesto. They may well lose, probably, but at the

:10:23.:10:26.

moment Labour really thinks, if they could cause another election, they

:10:27.:10:30.

think they could win. So there will be all sorts of pressure, lots of

:10:31.:10:34.

votes which will go down to the wire. It is very important, Labour

:10:35.:10:39.

think they can win and fable but votes that can go down to the wire

:10:40.:10:43.

and we will see what the next couple of years will look like -- they will

:10:44.:10:49.

put votes. This is not a world that the Tory MPs like the look of, they

:10:50.:10:52.

have been told they can't take time off, they will be kept late at the

:10:53.:10:55.

House of Commons and that will put stress on the Tory party. The poor

:10:56.:11:01.

dears. The important thing, that they accept the view that the Labour

:11:02.:11:06.

Party has, because Tory MPs also believe Labour will win the election

:11:07.:11:13.

if it will -- if it were to happen any time soon. And so anyone who

:11:14.:11:19.

shares the Labour view on the customs union and things like that.

:11:20.:11:23.

If the government loses a crucial vote, this doesn't trigger an

:11:24.:11:27.

election, but it means the Queen would ask Jeremy Corbyn to form a

:11:28.:11:31.

government. He would say, yes. He might well. What remains to be seen,

:11:32.:11:40.

how effective Labour are now as a machine, Parliamentary machine,

:11:41.:11:42.

because what we saw from the election, Jeremy Corbyn exceeded any

:11:43.:11:47.

expectations in his talents as a campaigner but the fundamentals, if

:11:48.:11:52.

you talk to labour MPs who have been sceptical about him, haven't changed

:11:53.:11:56.

in terms of his ability to manage the Parliamentary party. Nothing

:11:57.:12:00.

that has happened so far in terms of the rhetoric coming out from Labour

:12:01.:12:05.

on Brexit gives any cause for confidence that there is a strategy

:12:06.:12:09.

or even a tone that has been set that is coherent. You heard the

:12:10.:12:16.

Unite union man Gerard Coyne who believes he has been purged from the

:12:17.:12:22.

organisation and he believed that could happen in the party, as well.

:12:23.:12:27.

But if you have achieved what Jeremy Corbyn has achieved, and he is now

:12:28.:12:30.

ahead in the polls, even if they don't matter much will stop he has

:12:31.:12:35.

better ratings than Theresa May now. Why would you not say, this is a

:12:36.:12:39.

winning formula and I will rebuild the party in my image? It is a

:12:40.:12:44.

legitimate thing to do, but Europe is crucial. That is why Labour was

:12:45.:12:49.

like another election sooner rather than later before any crucial votes

:12:50.:12:52.

on things like the customs union and freedom of movement because they

:12:53.:12:56.

held together a much bigger coalition than anybody thought but

:12:57.:13:02.

they did that on the back of angry Remainers. This could factor again

:13:03.:13:08.

for them. When we talk about remaking the Labour Party in the

:13:09.:13:12.

image of Jeremy Corbyn, the question is, is that someone who is sceptical

:13:13.:13:18.

about Europe, and you will see some Labour MPs rebelling on Europe

:13:19.:13:20.

because they know that's the thing the members agree with them on, and

:13:21.:13:26.

not with Mr Corbyn. A week really is a long time in politics, as Harold

:13:27.:13:30.

Wilson said. Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two at noon

:13:31.:13:33.

tomorrow with the Daily Politics, and I'll be back here on BBC One

:13:34.:13:37.

next Sunday at 11am with Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:38.:13:41.

it's the Sunday Politics. BBC Northern Ireland's biggest

:13:42.:14:10.

classical music party of the year,

:14:11.:14:13.

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