27/01/2013 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics. Tough times for Belfast

traders, but can a cash injection kick start a comeback while flag

protests continue? I'll be asking the city's Lord Mayor, Gavin

Robinson. Also on the programme: I could have made more money outside

the EU. We are not big enough to stand on

our own. Following David Cameron's pledge to hold a European

referendum, we'll be asking if we're better off in or out of the

EU? And with us to discuss all of that, newspaper editor Jim Flanagan

It's been a difficult couple of months for Belfast. The ongoing

flag protests have left some city centre traders, already struggling

with the economic downturn, battling for survival. But could a

�400,000 funding package announced by the city council turn things

round? Or could the second phase of a new bus lane project in the city

centre cause even more problems? I'm joined by the Lord Mayor, Gavin

Robinson. Gavin Robinson, what can spending �400,000 of ratepayers'

money hope to achieve in the short- term?

I think it is a hugely positive initiative. Two weeks ago, I said

it was an opportunity not only to show how responsive they council is

but how relevant it is to make sure our city truly works. It will not

solve all the problems, but the idea of incentive rising people and

animating the City it is so important for traders that have

faced difficulties. We have to spend ratepayers money on something

we should not really be on the tab in the first place, do you accept

that? They will always be issues that arise and that you cannot plan

for and it was the same in tune with the floods. When the situation

has risen -- has arisen, is it important not to stand back but

that we show our responsiveness and do our best to insure City traders

and the hotelier's and bars and restaurants, ensure they are filled

and providing for the economic survival of the city. How well the

money be spent? In one respect it is a lot of money and in another

respect it is quite a small amount. It is not about handouts, it is

about adding to the �600,000 earmarked from the Northern Ireland

Executive and adding to bargains and incentives provided by the

businesses of Belfast and it supports an advertising campaign,

you have seen the advertising campaign and physical advertising

industry, it is about and there might -- animating areas with

events that will encourage people back into the city. For the

majority of City traders, there is a toxic perception but the reality,

it is not there. We have seen at scores of people coming backing and

acknowledging the city centre is a safe place to be. The elephant in

the room is the fact that the protests are continuing. They need

to stop and that is the only way this issue will be resolved once

and for all and people will know they are safe to come back into the

city. The truth is that we can run the City alongside the protests. If

you ask whether right think they are good for the city, I don't.

There is a whole range of areas where people can positively channel

their frustrations in other ways and a one to encourage them to do

them. There was violence again on Friday night. Petrol bombs were

thrown at the police in north Belfast. No, outside of the Belfast

council area. But that is not to excuse it. There is a toxic

perception that people have that the city centre is not safe and it

is not accurate. And it is not good for city centre trade. That is why

we are incentive rising people and backing the city centre and I hope

others will also. What about the issue of the bus lane and cycle

lane project phase two? We know there were major problems when the

first phase happen some months ago. Are you concerned that could simply

poor get more difficulties on to the city in the next few weeks?

was in September or October when we felt there were issues of

communication and people did not know what was happening. We felt

those responsible had not communicated their message and

engaged with people. I had to bring people together before Christmas to

make sure that Belfast on the move went forward significantly. I

offered the same service for the Minister for roads and we have

engaged with him thought fully and he has engaged also. The importance

is there is a practical benefit for the city centre. If people want to

come into the city centre for trade or hospitality or to enjoy

themselves, it is important they can do themselves in a fast and

efficient way. The idea that Belfast on the move isn't happening

is not right. We need to know -- we need to let people know where

things are taking place, but a good story for the City is how they will

be an increase in ft fall and travel within the city. Stay with

us because I want to put some of those points to our guests. Does

let me ask you first for your thoughts about the continuing

protests and the efforts on the part of the council and other

government bodies to deal with it. I used drug with the Lord Mayor's

you that we can run the break -- the city in tandem with the

protests, do you accept that? Something like that is happening.

The protests are at allocated times. So long as the police play their

part and keep everything well clear at other times, but I think

people... Cynically, as this might sound, people are beginning to

factor this in. The money is small and it is good PR and marketing. I

am conscious of other people, not just other people who go out for a

meal or a bottle of wine but people organising charity functions at the

City Hall. Before Christmas, I was invited to take part in a diabetes

event at the City Hall which was cancelled because of the protests.

People who are fit and of a certain generation know their way around an

how to cope, it is whether more vulnerable people are avoiding the

time because of this. Gin, you have worked in Ben fast and there the

City but you are now based in Ballymena. I wonder what your

perspective and that of your readers is likely to be because

most of the protests have been located in Belfast. I was in

Belfast myself on Friday night and there was not inconvenienced in the

slightest. I went to school in south Belfast so I criss-crossed

Belfast every day for years when Belfast city centre was fetchingly

sift -- sealed off so traders have been through this before. As far as

the on the move project go, it is a pragmatic group of people and they

will put up with a bit of short- term pain for long-term gain. The

big fear here is that the surgery may kill a few patients because

many businesses are on life support and the possibility is that this

could exacerbate the situation. is clearly not as bad as it was in

the dark days, but you make the point that the violence was in

Newton Abbey. That is a distinction that might pass people by but the

fact is it is happening in or around Belfast. An awful lot of

people are affected. That is why I mentioned the toxic perception

which is not running well with the reality where people can come in.

They have been scores of successful events that have continued and that

is not a criticism of those that were cancelled. But there are

people who are nervous and don't want to do that for whatever reason.

And that is why the campaign and the funding from the executive and

Traders and all that is on offer in the city centre will breathe life

back into the city centre and we will encourage people to come in

and let them know it is safe. I will continue to do that and back

fell -- Belfast and I hope others will as well.

With me now is Malachi O' Doherty and Jim Flanagan. It's been branded

the "hokey-cokey vote". On Wednesday, David Cameron pledged to

hold an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the next election.

He described it as a decision on the UK's destiny, but just how

important is Europe to Northern Ireland? Would we be better in or

out in future? In a moment, I'll be putting those questions to David

McNarry from UKIP and the SDLP's Conall McDevitt. But it's the

farming community that's often quoted as the big beneficiary of

our current relationship with Europe, so Conor Spackman headed

off to Ballymena livestock market to sample opinion.

So much of our income is derived from the subsidies from the easy so

I think most farmers would like to see as staying in but there are so

many will then regulations. It is difficult to answer. He in my young

days, I could have made more money outside be in new. It is a way

you're trade is and we are not big enough to stand on our own here. At

the end of the day, that's where things go down so you have to be in.

There is too much paperwork now for farmers. You need to be a clerical

worker. If you are not in the team you cannot win. We are not an

imperial nation anymore so we have to. We have to go with our European

partners. It is dependent on the industry. I don't think it is ever

as clear cut as a yes or No. It is good for business to have that

connection. It makes it easier. You suddenly don't want a massive

border that will cause problems whenever they are trying to sell

between Europe and ourselves. think we are better staying in.

That is what we get the EC money for, isn't it? If you can the

thoughts from the community there. The SDLP's Conall McDevitt and

David McNarry of UKIP are with me now. Is there any need for a

referendum? It is an unhelpful development and reduces us to

something like a flag wicking -- flag-waving contest between

nationalists and people who understand their history and that

60 million people died in Europe at the Second World War. As a result

of those deaths, a pledge was made an the pretty -- Treaty of Rome --

to build an ever closer union between the peoples of Rome and to

remove the causes of potential future conflict. If we tinker and

mess around with their huge benefits of integrating with Europe

over the past 50 years we do so at our peril and no one should reduce

this to a political football and I regret that is what is happening.

assume you remain unconvinced? don't see those benefits and I

don't think the people of the UK see them. What we have had from

David Cameron was smoking areas. We have a British prime ministers

saying we will have a referendum provided a win an election. As --

at this moment, I wouldn't give his chances to be very good to win. His

Coalition partners are not with him and he is deceiving the public. I

think it will be a matter of trust. In so far of the benefits of Europe

to the people of the UK, I think the rise of the UK it demonstrates

the people of the United Kingdom do not see them -- the United Kingdom

Independence Party, and they do not share... It maybe they just don't

understand what the benefits are. Looking at Northern Ireland

specifically, Farmers benefit hugely from EU membership. CAP

brings in �100 million for farmers, peace programme backed projects

totalling �73 million in recent years. In the past six years,

Northern Ireland has received �800 million from EU - �154m a year!

That is an enormous amount of money. If he took that out, we would

notice the difference. I don't believe coming out of Europe we

will displace that money. In terms of the United Kingdom being a net

contributor to something like 8 billion pounds, that is on top of

what we already do. In value, these figures... But on average, the UK

is sinking up to �50 million a year. In so far as what is happening to

our farming industry and the fishing industry, I represent the

fishing industry and a farming industry constituency. The fishing

industry has been decimated because of Europe. I think we need some

semblance of reality... Just finish that point. In so far as the single

farm payment is concerned, I am quite sure the money that isn't

given into Europe will compensate for that. Farmers will not lose

their single farm payment if we come out of Europe. Can you give an

assurance like that? I don't understand how he could give that

assurance. If you are a millionaire farmer sitting on prime land, you

may have an issue with the Common Agricultural Policy but there isn't

a farmer in Ireland, Wales or Scotland he will not recognise the

fact that the way the farming is structured would not be possible

except because of the EU and there are good reasons why we continue to

be in there. It is about the says - - sustainability of the rural

community and if you don't buy those arguments, what about the

fact that Europe has been at peace for the longest periods -- period

ever in its history. We tinker and mess around with the sort of

poisoned politics at that sent Europe to war at our peril. We can

talk about the figures... But there is a no shame that the United

Kingdom Independence Party has sat into about interference by Brussels

and people do not like it. That is what they read about and they are

wary of. I think what they are tapping into... The evidence does

not suggest the wider might of political interference. In many

ways, people like me would argue there is a democratic deficit at

the heart of Europe and that the EU parliament is not strong enough.

What I think they are tapping into other British nationals and some

sort of nonsense that we can return to the Empire in the same way some

people here think we can return to the old Northern Ireland. Is that

what the UK Independence Party is about? I don't think so. Here,

there is a name that goes with us who are British and cling on to it,

self-determination. It is a big thing here. The people of the

United Kingdom are not going to vote for political union with the

United States of Europe although it to be governed by France or Germany.

They are not going to. No one has suggested that, have they? We are

legislators and 70% of the legislation and laws that are taken

through the United Kingdom actually our European laws. Europe is

governing the United Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom are

saying, we want self-determination and we want to govern ourselves and

make our laws and look at them. We want to take those laws through. We

want to be able to be accountable. It is the case that there is a lot

of UK legislation which has to beat the you compliant and it is the

case that the highest court in the land it isn't in the land. Very

often now things have to be well done by European judiciary figures.

A highest court in the land, the European Court of Justice, isn't

part of the European Union. People start these myths about the EU

being the root of all evil when it is not true. If it was true, the

United Nations is also the root of all evil. No one is right -- no's

one an right to threat self determination is threatened by the

Treaty of Rome, but what is set and his these stability in socio-

economic terms. Let us drill it down to one thing. Week in the

United Kingdom are so lucky we are not in the eurozone. Isn't that a

godsend? We will see if that happens. Plenty of opportunities to

discuss it between now and the referendum, if it happens. Thank

you David McNarry and Conall McDevitt thank you. We'll hear the

final thoughts of my guests Malachi O'Doherty and Jim Flanagan in a

moment, after a look back at the week's political headlines in 60

The DUP said it may call Sinn's Fein bluff by agreeing to a border

poll and was accused of doing a U- turn, which is what drivers

standard by heavy snow would love to have done. If there are lessons

that can be learned from the experience over recent days we will

apply those. Extra cash was promised, but the Finance Minister

was annoyed that the MLA was not there to hear about it. I have good

news for the Green Party that don't even turn that -- the M -- the

Green Party didn't turn up. This commentators said it wasn't that

simple. It is not just about getting walls

down but making people secured in Interface areas so they know when

the walls come down -- than they Inez McCormack died after a long

illness. Now a few final thoughts. A word on

the debate we have just had about Europe and whether Europe is good

for Northern Ireland or whether there should or should not be a

referendum. It was right to be located in identity politics and

that is what is really going on here. I take that back to Northern

Ireland and say, how would I feel as a Northern Ireland person in a

devolved region is Britain pulled out of Europe and we ate in --

ended up with a United Kingdom Independence Party. I would feel

more Irish. A I would rather be in the union of Europe through Ireland

than in a little Britain through Britain. I think that we have these

discussions about Britain in Europe and don't consider enough how the

it affects people in the regions and their sense of identity within

the regions. Do you share that perspective? I have no issue with

the referendum and I thought that was what the essence of democracy

was. I think it is a perfectly reasonable position all the way

except that... It is reasonable to say that we will have all the

arguments for and against and then ask the electorate to make a mature

and informed decisions. But we can't have the Ballymena editor

reverse without talking about what will happen tomorrow. Liam Neeson

will be conferred with the freedom of the borough tomorrow and that

will be a big day, won't it? It is the hottest ticket in town.

Hollywood stardust on our doorsteps! It is a measure of how

far northern Ireland has come because you have eight council

dominated by eight Unionists and there will be a nationalist mayor

hamming over the highest accolade that can be bestowed to a member of

his community. If you could bottle that and feel to it through to the

rest of Northern Ireland we will be moving in the right direction.